NEWS: Autistic Boy and Father found dead in Edmonton Home
Arak
September 27. A man and his son were found dead in their home in
Edmonton. At first, no one release the identities of the boy and his
father or even that the boy was autistic, but it just came out today
that the boy was autistic.
Apparently, the father was at his wits end and .... well... let's just
say this isn't the first incident of its kind that I've seen.
http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/world/Family+dead+father+received+autism/2043285/story.html
Family had been seeking help for autistic boy
Cigdem Iltan and Ben Gelinas, Edmonton Journal: Tuesday, September 29,
2009
EDMONTON - A 39-year-old man and his 11-year-old son found dead in a
north-end home over the weekend had received assistance recently from
the Alberta Association for Community Living, says the executive
officer of the charity.
The family contacted the AACL because the boy, who had autism, was in
a psychiatric unit and was about to be released without an alternative
living arrangement, said Bruce Uditsky. The AACL, which helps people
with developmental disabilities, convinced the hospital not to release
the boy until it found him another place to live, he said.
"His family felt it was too difficult to care for him at home all the
time and wanted what we call an out-of-home placement," he said. "They
weren't getting enough co-operation from the government to provide for
that, so we facilitated that arrangement and have stood by them."
The boy did not live with his father. He lived in a home provided by
an agency that was staffed 24 hours a day, Uditsky said.
Staff at the AACL had a good relationship with the family, he said.
"Our last conversation with (the father) was not long ago. He was
looking at options for the future and I thought he was on the right
track," Uditsky said. "We work with thousands of families every year.
It's one thing when you hear about it, but it's totally different when
it's someone you know and can't conceptualize how this could happen."
Shortly after 12:30 p. m. Sunday afternoon, the man's common-law wife
called police when she couldn't find her husband in their home. When
officers arrived at 84th Street and 138th Avenue, they found the man
and his son dead in the basement.
Police have only said the deaths are suspicious and that they are not
looking for any suspects.
The family has requested that the names not be released, and
investigators want to protect the identity of other children that are
related.
Police said a woman and her son and the dead man and his son all lived
in the home together.
Shortly before police were called on Sunday, a neighbour told The
Journal that one of the boys knocked on her door and said his father
was locked in the basement and wouldn't wake up. The boy's mother kept
him at that neighbour's house and picked him up after police arrived.
The causes of death have not been released. Autopsies are scheduled
for today.
More on this:
EDMONTON — A father who murdered his autistic son then killed himself
was overburdened for years because the boy had fallen through
programming gaps and the family had been unable to get the help it
needed, a family friend said Tuesday.
“This horrible thing that’s happened is the result of an accumulation
of stress because of the lack of resources. That’s the way the mother
sees it,” said Karen Phillips, program director for the Autism Society
of Edmonton Area.
“As you can well imagine, she’s in shock but also really feels they’ve
been abandoned and that they didn’t get the help that they needed.”
The father, 39, and his 11-year-old son were found dead by police in
their north Edmonton home Sunday afternoon. Though police will not
release their identities or the causes of their deaths, they did
confirm Tuesday it was a murder-suicide.
Two other people lived in the house, a woman and her son. The woman
was not the biological mother of the boy who was killed, but Phillips
said she had filled the role as his mother for some time.
Phillips met the family last year when they contacted her after a
particularly stressful incident that took the family to the breaking
point.
“(The boy’s) behaviour was out of control and they were looking for
some help,” she said, refusing to elaborate.
One night, the boy was so uncontrollable that his parents took him to
the Royal Alexandra Hospital to try to get some help for him.
“They spent a very, very long time in the emergency room. Twenty hours
or more with the boy screaming. They were even asked to leave by one
resident, and when they finally made it upstairs to the psych unit it
was made clear to them this wasn’t the place for children,” Phillips
said.
Ultimately, the boy was admitted for a short time, but Phillips said
it simply wasn’t the proper place for him to be.
“It’s a psych ward. It’s a bare room. There’s no mini-trampoline or
anything there, there’s nothing that we usually use with kids with
autism to burn off their energy.”
When the boy returned home, Phillips said, the family struggled
constantly to find the right support or programs to help them deal
with the child. That was when they contacted her for help.
“They were so upset about what they’d been through,” she said.
The boy was put in a psychiatric ward at least one other time, after
which the Alberta Association for Community Living helped find a home
he could live in on weekdays that had 24-hour staffing. The AACL
executive director said the family was in the midst of trying to find
another home for the boy.
Phillips doesn’t blame anyone for what happened but said there are
serious gaps in the system that autistic children and their families
are prone to fall through, especially in emergency situations.
Right now, she said, the only option for most parents with an out-of-
control autistic child is to call the police, who will take the child
to the Royal Alexandra’s psych ward. She said the province needs to
create emergency beds for children in crisis and have more supports in
place for them and their families.
“These gaps and these problems are well recognized in government. We
are trying to work toward closing them, but unfortunately, and
horrendously, for this family it was too late.”
Adam Holm, a spokesman for Edmonton and Area Child and Family
Services, said he could not comment specifically on the family’s
belief that gaps in the system contributed to Sunday’s deaths. He said
families who feel their children are endangering themselves or others
always have the option to call the police or to call the 24-hour child
at risk response unit.
Holm said 27 per cent of the children on the province’s Family Support
for Children with Disabilities program have autism spectrum disorder.
Buzzard
> This is a very sad story that came out in the news on Sunday,
> September 27. A man and his son were found dead in their home in
> Edmonton. At first, no one release the identities of the boy and his
> father or even that the boy was autistic, but it just came out today
> that the boy was autistic.
>
> Apparently, the father was at his wits end and .... well... let's just
> say this isn't the first incident of its kind that I've seen.
>
> http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/world/Family+dead+father+received+autism/2043285/story.html
No doubt I'll be seeing this tragedy played out over and
over and over in political ads here in the U.S., as the
GOP and the insurance lobby seek to stamp out
any hope of meaningful health reform for the US.
Gareeth
>
> No doubt I'll be seeing this tragedy played out over and
> over and over in political ads here in the U.S., as the
> GOP and the insurance lobby seek to stamp out
> any hope of meaningful health reform for the US.
Not sure what that has to do with health reform. Maybe social services
reform.
Gareeth
NoBody
news:X8Wdna2G7KYuE1vX...@citizens.coop...
Don't blame the GOP; they are powerless in the minority. The Dems
are doing nothing but biting their nails, worried what this weeks
opinion polls will bring.
When this socialistic monstrosity fails, it will be squarely
placed in the laps of the Democrats. Just goes to show that they can't
do a damned thing right, even with a supermajority.
Buzzard
The tragedy itself needn't have anything directly to
do with health reform. The fact that one Canadian
slipped through the cracks of a government system
combined with the divisive and dirty political struggle
going on in the U.S. over how, and whether or not,
the "gummint" will change the current health system,
is not much of a link.... But those who want to kill
any hope of reform do not *need* *much* of a link.
They'll twist this into yet another of their supposed
examples of "here's why you don't want what Canada has".
Its what they do.
Buzzard
>> No doubt I'll be seeing this tragedy played out over and
>> over and over in political ads here in the U.S., as the
>> GOP and the insurance lobby seek to stamp out
>> any hope of meaningful health reform for the US.
>
> Don't blame the GOP; they are powerless in the minority. The Dems
> are doing nothing but biting their nails, worried what this weeks
> opinion polls will bring.
> When this socialistic monstrosity fails, it will be squarely
> placed in the laps of the Democrats. Just goes to show that they can't
> do a damned thing right, even with a supermajority.
They may be in the minority, but they are *far* from powerless.
They have the support of the super-wealthy. I've seen their ads.
They know how to scare the public. And whoever can do that, wins.
By extracting concession after concession, they'll chip away at
reform until nothing of substance, nothing that could work, is
left. And then it *will* be a monstrosity, doomed to fail.
Its happening even as I type this. The U.S. will *never*
join the rest of the developed world. Health care, considered
a basic human right elsewhere, is and will always remain,
a commodity here. The fact that the Dems are so easy to
divide doesn't help much either.
Gareeth
> They'll twist this into yet another of their supposed
> examples of "here's why you don't want what Canada has".
> Its what they do.
But you already have this problem. A substantial number of cases of the
parents of autistic children comitting homicide or homicide and suicide
originate in the US. I don't think they can spin it to overlook that part of
things. They seem to be willing to lie through their teeth about our wait
lists (ie my knee replacement is going to be 3 months from when I was put on
the list not 3 years and I was offered a date a month sooner than that one)
but they cannot pretend this is a problem that is unique to Canada and
trying to link it to health care would be tenuous at best.
Gareeth
Bob Badour
About 15% of the Canadian population have no family doctor, which
effectively shuts them out of the health-care system. That's millions of
people "slipping through the cracks". In Ontario, it is against the law
to spend your own money on your own healthcare.
You really do not want what Canada has, because what Canada has is obscene.
Bob Badour
> Buzzard wrote:
>
>>They'll twist this into yet another of their supposed
>>examples of "here's why you don't want what Canada has".
>>Its what they do.
>
>
> But you already have this problem. A substantial number of cases of the
> parents of autistic children comitting homicide or homicide and suicide
> originate in the US. I don't think they can spin it to overlook that part of
> things. They seem to be willing to lie through their teeth about our wait
> lists (ie my knee replacement is going to be 3 months from when I was put on
> the list not 3 years
That's nice. I had to wait almost a year to see a specialist for
screening for a cancer that runs in my family, and I had to wait almost
a year after seeing the specialist for the appointed screening date.
(That was after the 6 year period when I had no family doctor and could
not access the healthcare system at all.)
It's different where I am now: It only took 6 months from referral to
procedure. But who really wants to play roulette with their health like
that? Or to have to move to a different area with fewer jobs to get a
lower wait time that's still way too long?
The scenario here is far from ideal too. From here, if I ever got
anything serious, I would have to travel at least 4 hours away by car
for treatment. The few doctors we have here, who mostly come from the
third world, are overworked and underappreciated. None seem to last more
than a year or two before moving on.
When I lived in Ontario and wait times for non-emergency CT scans were
running around 16 weeks for people, my dog got one in 6 days. The
scanner where Buddy got scanned sits idle 16 hours a day in a research
building adjacent to a hospital in London Ontario; except the one day a
week when a vet shows up to operate it at night on animals.
But the veterinary scans are done on a strictly cash and carry basis.
> and I was offered a date a month sooner than that one)
> but they cannot pretend this is a problem that is unique to Canada and
> trying to link it to health care would be tenuous at best.
>
> Gareeth
I agree the murder suicide is unrelated to the health care issue.
NoBody
That's because they're freaking idiots.
Buzzard
> (snip)
> About 15% of the Canadian population have no family doctor, which
> effectively shuts them out of the health-care system. That's millions of
> people "slipping through the cracks". In Ontario, it is against the law
> to spend your own money on your own healthcare.
>
> You really do not want what Canada has, because what Canada has is obscene.
What we have here in the US is pretty obscene too.
About 17% of US have no health insurance, which means
that for them, any major illness leads to the ultimate
choice: Go bankrupt, or die.
I knew someone who had lost his job (and with it his
health insurance) and then he had a heart attack.
He was in the hospital for perhaps a week.
When he got back to his house, the hospital already
had a lean on it for $50,000. Thats fifty-thousand
dollars. If he hadn't had such a big retirement saved
up, he would have had to declare bankruptcy.
Even those who do have insurance often get the shaft.
You apply for the insurance, get accepted, and pay
increasingly exorbitant premiums for years; and then
when you get really sick, the insurance company finds
some small mistake in your forms, and cancels your
policy. You get zilch. Or they'll stall and stall,
and finally approve a treatment once its too late to
start one. For those who are destitute long before
their illness, there's Medicaid. For the very rich,
there's the best care in the world. For the middle
class, a major illness often leads to the poorhouse.
As for myself, I pay for absolute-minimal insurance;
the kind that only kicks in if I get some horrible
illness that would otherwise cost me a huge chunk of
my retirement savings. In other words, something to
keep me out of the poorhouse if I should get sick.
(that is, IF they don't find some excuse to deny
my claim)
What do you consider to be the worst thing about the
health care in Ontario? A shortage of primary-care
doctors, or the fact that Canada's system is public
rather than private?
Buzzard
> "Buzzard" ranted:
>> They may be in the minority, but they are *far* from powerless.
>> They have the support of the super-wealthy. I've seen their ads.
>> They know how to scare the public. And whoever can do that, wins.
>> By extracting concession after concession, they'll chip away at
>> reform until nothing of substance, nothing that could work, is
>> left. And then it *will* be a monstrosity, doomed to fail.
>> Its happening even as I type this. The U.S. will *never*
>> join the rest of the developed world. Health care, considered
>> a basic human right elsewhere, is and will always remain,
>> a commodity here. The fact that the Dems are so easy to
>> divide doesn't help much either.
>
> That's because they're freaking idiots.
That is true of *both* major parties.
Gareeth
> Bob Badour wrote:
>> (snip)
>> About 15% of the Canadian population have no family doctor, which
>> effectively shuts them out of the health-care system. That's
>> millions of people "slipping through the cracks". In Ontario, it is
>> against the law to spend your own money on your own healthcare.
>>
>> You really do not want what Canada has, because what Canada has is
>> obscene.
>
limited to Canada. Also not having a family doctor does not shut you out of
the health system at all. There are many excellent clinics people can go to.
That 15 percent number is oft cited but having had to go through finding a
new doctor I was all of 4 days without one. I can see that would be more
problematic for smaller areas but it is a universal system.
Now if you would rather life somewhere where healthy 20 somethings die from
complications from the cold or any major illnesses bankrupts you feel free
to pack your bags and move south.
I am extremely happy with healthcare in Canada and as someone who consumes a
lot of it I feel more than qualified to have an opinion. No system is
perfect but the sort of care I have needed would have run into the millions
of dollars by now that is unless I like a good friend of mine simply died
basically because access to health care there without insurance is a
nightmare.
I would be happy to take up a collection to pay for your luggage if a lack
of that is keeping you here in this obscence country you bash so freely and
often.
Gareeth
Bob Badour
> Bob Badour wrote:
>
>> (snip)
>> About 15% of the Canadian population have no family doctor, which
>> effectively shuts them out of the health-care system. That's millions
>> of people "slipping through the cracks". In Ontario, it is against the
>> law to spend your own money on your own healthcare.
>>
>> You really do not want what Canada has, because what Canada has is
>> obscene.
>
> What we have here in the US is pretty obscene too.
I disagree. Nobody is prevented by force of state from spending their
own money on their own healthcare in the USA. That's de jure in Ontario
and de facto pretty much everywhere else.
> About 17% of US have no health insurance, which means
> that for them, any major illness leads to the ultimate
> choice: Go bankrupt, or die.
A similar percentage of Canadians are similarly deprived any healthcare
except in life or death situations. Even when they can afford better and
even when the lack of healthcare seriously degrades quality of life.
It is obscene to take my money so that an indigent doesn't have to
declare bankcruptcy while at the same time preventing me from accessing
healthcare I can afford for myself. I was in that situation for about 8
years. Canadians have a perverse tendency to brag about that obscenity.
No similar obscenity exists in the USA. Don't even pretend it does.
> I knew someone who had lost his job (and with it his
> health insurance) and then he had a heart attack.
> He was in the hospital for perhaps a week.
> When he got back to his house, the hospital already
> had a lean on it for $50,000. Thats fifty-thousand
> dollars.
So? The people of Canada want about double that amount from me. And I
didn't even have the benefit of having my life saved.
<snip>
Bob Badour
> Buzzard wrote:
>
>>Bob Badour wrote:
>>
>>>(snip)
>>>About 15% of the Canadian population have no family doctor, which
>>>effectively shuts them out of the health-care system. That's
>>>millions of people "slipping through the cracks". In Ontario, it is
>>>against the law to spend your own money on your own healthcare.
>>>
>>>You really do not want what Canada has, because what Canada has is
>>>obscene.
>>
> There is a world wide shortage of health professionals Bob. It is not
> limited to Canada. Also not having a family doctor does not shut you out of
> the health system at all.
Don't fucking tell me it didn't shut me out of the fucking health system
when it fucking goddammed well did! I had doctors flat out refuse to
treat me telling me to see "my family doctory" they goddammed well knew
I didn't have and couldn't fucking get!
It is fucking insulting and dehumanizing to have my direct experience of
reality denied and dismissed like that. Don't do it.
HGJ
> Gareeth wrote:
> > Buzzard wrote:
>
> >>Bob Badour wrote:
>
> >>>(snip)
> >>>About 15% of the Canadian population have no family doctor, which
> >>>effectively shuts them out of the health-care system. That's
> >>>millions of people "slipping through the cracks". In Ontario, it is
> >>>against the law to spend your own money on your own healthcare.
>
> >>>You really do not want what Canada has, because what Canada has is
> >>>obscene.
>
> > There is a world wide shortage of health professionals Bob. It is not
> > limited to Canada. Also not having a family doctor does not shut you out of
> > the health system at all.
<snipping, in case Gareeth doesn't want to see the foul language and
so on>
Why were you unable to get a family doctor, Bob? Because there was no
one available in your area?
Bob Badour
There were family doctors available if you already had one. None of them
were taking new patients. When I went to a walk-in clinic for anything
requiring a referral or follow-up, I was refused treatment.
The top and back of my head are still covered with sebaceous cysts. At
the time, one or another of them would get inflamed then burst open
oosing cups full of disgusting pus and blood two or three times every
month. More than a few times I had to leave work lest I disgust my
colleagues. It was embarassing and costly. At the time, I desperately
wanted them excised.
I almost punched a doctor at a walk-in clinic one day who told me I
needed them excised and told me to talk to my family doctor then
refused--flat out refused--to help when I explained I had no family
doctor. Inconsiderate mother-fucker.
And I cannot count the number of smug fucking knee-jerk assholes who
happened to have family doctors who would jump in to contradict me if I
had anything less than absolutely positive to say about my direct
experience of Canadian fucking socialized medicine. It's obscene.
Martijn Dekker
Bob Badour <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> It is fucking insulting and dehumanizing to have my direct experience of
> reality denied and dismissed like that. Don't do it.
PKB.
Gareeth
> PKB.
What does PKB mean?
I wasn't dismissing your experience. I am just saying that on average people
don't wait long to find a family physician if they are looking and there are
alternatives so your notion that lacking a family doctor locks you out of
healthcare is pure fantasy. There is a universal shortage of family
physicians so I do get sick of seeing your constantly making out like Canada
has crappy healthcare. Move to the US and you will see crappy healthcare.
Gareeth
Martijn Dekker
"Gareeth" <Garee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Martijn Dekker wrote:
> > PKB.
>
> What does PKB mean?
Pot, Kettle, Black. When Bob complained about you dismissing his
experience and dehumanizing him, IMO he was the pot calling the kettle
black, because he was doing just that to you by denying socialized
medicine can be a good thing as it has been to you.
It seems the rest of your message was directed at him.
- Martijn
NoBody
No, the Republicans are total morons. Difference....
Bob Badour
> In article <K3Oym.46865$Db2.16276@edtnps83>,
> "Gareeth" <Garee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Martijn Dekker wrote:
>>
>>>PKB.
>>
>>What does PKB mean?
>
> Pot, Kettle, Black. When Bob complained about you dismissing his
> experience and dehumanizing him, IMO he was the pot calling the kettle
> black, because he was doing just that to you by denying socialized
> medicine can be a good thing as it has been to you.
Bullshit. I never said it isn't working for her. In fact, I explicitly
stated it works somewhat for an arbitrary 85% of the population who
happen to have a family doctor. That still leaves millions of us who are
fucked.
She directly contradicted my statement about my own intimate years long
experience with the fucking obscenity called socialized medicine in
Ontario. And my not too different experience in PEI. It is a typical
fucking knee-jerk reaction from the smug assholes who happen to have a
family doctor here. It pisses me off because it's right in my face
telling me that we other 15% not only don't fucking matter but need to
be beaten into silence for sharing our experiences.
That's like a commissar in the former USSR contradicting someone who
spent years in the gulag saying soviet communism isn't so bad because
things worked out okay for the commissar. The obscenity is no less
fucking obscene.
ivor titekunt
> Martijn Dekker wrote:
> > In article <K3Oym.46865$Db2.16276@edtnps83>,
My dearest Mr V Angry
Please do not be offended, but I feel I have to bring to your
attention that your language, is truly fucking awful.
You Cunt.
If your vocabulary is as limited as it would seem, perhaps you could
refrain from posting for a while? and maybe use the time to learn a
few more words, start with the easy ones, like A, THE, TO, AND.
and then gradually work your way up to some harder ones(unless of
course, it's the lack "of a harder one" that causes you to be so angry
in the first place) and who knows? in a few short decades you may be
able to make a coherent post.
But if not, then please, just piss off forever.
Thanks and my very best regards
Ivor TK
Buzzard
> Buzzard wrote:
>
>> Bob Badour wrote:
>>
>>> (snip)
>>> About 15% of the Canadian population have no family doctor, which
>>> effectively shuts them out of the health-care system. That's millions
>>> of people "slipping through the cracks". In Ontario, it is against
>>> the law to spend your own money on your own healthcare.
>>>
>>> You really do not want what Canada has, because what Canada has is
>>> obscene.
>>
>> What we have here in the US is pretty obscene too.
>
> I disagree. Nobody is prevented by force of state from spending their
> own money on their own healthcare in the USA. That's de jure in Ontario
> and de facto pretty much everywhere else.
I am not denying your experience.
I have no reason to doubt what happened to you.
It sounds like the US and Canada both have their problems.
And I don't need to watch ASA go up in flames to know that the
issue of health care is a controversial one. I can tell that by
the way just about everything I see, read, or hear on the subject
contradicts everything else I see, read or hear on the subject.
What I do know is what goes on in my own piss-poor locality, and
its hard not to notice when desperate people have to pass around
the collection jar, hoping the community will chip in enough
dough to save their lives without landing them out on the street.
From what you describe, it sounds to me like any meaningful
reform of health care ought to include a heavily-discounted
tuition rate for anyone studying to be a primary-care doctor.
That way, they won't be deep in debt when they graduate.
That way, maybe there'll be more of them to go to.
Here, *and* there.
--
Buzzard
Gareeth
> From what you describe, it sounds to me like any meaningful
> reform of health care ought to include a heavily-discounted
> tuition rate for anyone studying to be a primary-care doctor.
> That way, they won't be deep in debt when they graduate.
> That way, maybe there'll be more of them to go to.
> Here, *and* there.
A big problem is that the overhead for a GP is huge compared to what they
will earn. They could make more money doing just about anything else. For
the hours they put in they really wind up with a pittance. I have an
excellent GP and I wish he could make as much money as some of the
specialists he sends me to. That would seem fair. If there were programs to
help with the cost of medical school for those wishing to be GPs that might
help as you suggest. If they didn't come out of medical school with so much
debt that they quite literally cannot afford to even consider that sort of
medicine things might change. Ultimately though that whole model might need
to change.
Gareeth
AmaranthQueen
Wow I missed a ton of stuff! Ok, I gotta say American Health Care
isn't THAT bad. I've been on all sides of it just about (no
insurance, government insurance, and private insurance). While it can
be expensive, there are so many programs available to help pay for
insurance if you do make too much for the government sort that its
really not that bad.
I just paid off an outstanding 1200 medical bill, and I'm working on
another 600 from when I had really lame insurance. Overall after 2
kids and a lifetime of stupidity (derby injuries, hockey, etc) that's
not that bad. They didn't want it all at once either I paid a bit a
month.
As to Canadian health insurance I've heard some horror stories in
regards to referrals and things that aren't considered "necessary".
This is why many Canadians come to the US for treatment. I'm not anti-
Canada either I love the place even though I'm no longer a citizen (I
was born there).
Nikki
Gareeth
> As to Canadian health insurance I've heard some horror stories in
> regards to referrals and things that aren't considered "necessary".
> This is why many Canadians come to the US for treatment. I'm not
> anti- Canada either I love the place even though I'm no longer a
> citizen (I was born there).
>
was a woman from Ontario who appeared on them and it was made out like she
had to go to the US because surgery on tumours wasn't considered necessary
so she would have to wait here for a few months. What wasn't said is that
her tumours were completely benign and removal was pretty optional.
I don't have any big problem with someone who feels every little thing that
goes on with them is a crisis heading South. If they want to shell out money
for something they could get done free here after a short wait so be it but
I do have a problem with that being as used as evidence that our own system
is a mess.
It is just difficult for me to understand how a country can be a developed
nation and not desire universal access to health care. On almost every group
I am on this is being hotly discussed but the consensus (among insured well
off Americans anyway) is that you guys don't need or want health care
reform. That's pretty hard to understand given you already spend more per
captita of tax payers money on it than other countries that people would
settle for a non universal system.
Gareeth
earthpots
Behind the 8-ball here (life got in the way), but this is truly sad. Care
for all kinds of disabilities is random and inconsistent, depending on where
you live and what the govt and non-profits provide. I live in an area that
basically sucks (Central-Western Maryland). I ended up contacting my
conressman to fight the way disabled people were being processed for
benefits at Social Services. I wasn't alone, and my Congressman listened.
The agency made sweeping changes after a big staff overhaul (Including the
firing of it's directors). We are no longer treated like welfare people
applying for temporary benefits with a 12 page benefit application. They now
send us, and the elderly, a 1 page renewal, you just confirm the information
that is correctm, fix anything that isn't. not any changes, aend it in.
Permanently disabled and elderly used to have to file yearly withy the crazy
12 page form. Most of it didn't even apply, but you had to fill in _all_ of
the blanks, so I spent wasted minutes put "NA" and "0" in dozens of boxes.
I am eventually moving to live where my sister lives (Delaware). They have a
state disability board and every disabled resident who requests has a
volunteer advocate asigned to them, most are university students using the
experience towards course work requirements. The state headquarters is at
the university. The advocate acts as a co-ordinater between the disabled
individual and various services. They also facilitate support groups for
socializing and recreation, the Asperger's group meets just down the street
from my sister's house. This was a result of a bill signed into law by the
previous governor. I am really impressed at what the DE Council on
Diabilities provides for it's disabled residents. This family probably would
have received what they needed. Instead, they are another statistic that
fell through the cracks. What a tragedy!
Arak wrote:
> This is a very sad story that came out in the news on Sunday,
> September 27. A man and his son were found dead in their home in
> Edmonton. At first, no one release the identities of the boy and his
> father or even that the boy was autistic, but it just came out today
> that the boy was autistic.
>
> Apparently, the father was at his wits end and .... well... let's just
> say this isn't the first incident of its kind that I've seen.
>
> http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/world/Family+dead+father+received+autism/2043285/story.html
>
> Family had been seeking help for autistic boy
> Cigdem Iltan and Ben Gelinas, Edmonton Journal: Tuesday, September 29,
> 2009
>
> EDMONTON - A 39-year-old man and his 11-year-old son found dead in a
> north-end home over the weekend had received assistance recently from
> the Alberta Association for Community Living, says the executive
> officer of the charity.
>
> The family contacted the AACL because the boy, who had autism, was in
> a psychiatric unit and was about to be released without an alternative
> living arrangement, said Bruce Uditsky. The AACL, which helps people
> with developmental disabilities, convinced the hospital not to release
> the boy until it found him another place to live, he said.
>
> "His family felt it was too difficult to care for him at home all the
> time and wanted what we call an out-of-home placement," he said. "They
> weren't getting enough co-operation from the government to provide for
> that, so we facilitated that arrangement and have stood by them."
>
> The boy did not live with his father. He lived in a home provided by
> an agency that was staffed 24 hours a day, Uditsky said.
>
> Staff at the AACL had a good relationship with the family, he said.
>
> "Our last conversation with (the father) was not long ago. He was
> looking at options for the future and I thought he was on the right
> track," Uditsky said. "We work with thousands of families every year.
> It's one thing when you hear about it, but it's totally different when
> it's someone you know and can't conceptualize how this could happen."
>
> Shortly after 12:30 p. m. Sunday afternoon, the man's common-law wife
> called police when she couldn't find her husband in their home. When
> officers arrived at 84th Street and 138th Avenue, they found the man
> and his son dead in the basement.
>
> Police have only said the deaths are suspicious and that they are not
> looking for any suspects.
>
> The family has requested that the names not be released, and
> investigators want to protect the identity of other children that are
> related.
>
> Police said a woman and her son and the dead man and his son all lived
> in the home together.
>
> Shortly before police were called on Sunday, a neighbour told The
> Journal that one of the boys knocked on her door and said his father
> was locked in the basement and wouldn't wake up. The boy's mother kept
> him at that neighbour's house and picked him up after police arrived.
>
> The causes of death have not been released. Autopsies are scheduled
> for today.
>
> cil...@thejournal.canwest.com
>
>
> More on this:
>
> EDMONTON � A father who murdered his autistic son then killed himself
> was overburdened for years because the boy had fallen through
> programming gaps and the family had been unable to get the help it
> needed, a family friend said Tuesday.
>
> �This horrible thing that�s happened is the result of an accumulation
> of stress because of the lack of resources. That�s the way the mother
> sees it,� said Karen Phillips, program director for the Autism Society
> of Edmonton Area.
>
> �As you can well imagine, she�s in shock but also really feels they�ve
> been abandoned and that they didn�t get the help that they needed.�
>
> The father, 39, and his 11-year-old son were found dead by police in
> their north Edmonton home Sunday afternoon. Though police will not
> release their identities or the causes of their deaths, they did
> confirm Tuesday it was a murder-suicide.
>
> Two other people lived in the house, a woman and her son. The woman
> was not the biological mother of the boy who was killed, but Phillips
> said she had filled the role as his mother for some time.
>
> Phillips met the family last year when they contacted her after a
> particularly stressful incident that took the family to the breaking
> point.
>
> �(The boy�s) behaviour was out of control and they were looking for
> some help,� she said, refusing to elaborate.
>
> One night, the boy was so uncontrollable that his parents took him to
> the Royal Alexandra Hospital to try to get some help for him.
>
> �They spent a very, very long time in the emergency room. Twenty hours
> or more with the boy screaming. They were even asked to leave by one
> resident, and when they finally made it upstairs to the psych unit it
> was made clear to them this wasn�t the place for children,� Phillips
> said.
> Ultimately, the boy was admitted for a short time, but Phillips said
> it simply wasn�t the proper place for him to be.
>
> �It�s a psych ward. It�s a bare room. There�s no mini-trampoline or
> anything there, there�s nothing that we usually use with kids with
> autism to burn off their energy.�
>
> When the boy returned home, Phillips said, the family struggled
> constantly to find the right support or programs to help them deal
> with the child. That was when they contacted her for help.
>
> �They were so upset about what they�d been through,� she said.
>
> The boy was put in a psychiatric ward at least one other time, after
> which the Alberta Association for Community Living helped find a home
> he could live in on weekdays that had 24-hour staffing. The AACL
> executive director said the family was in the midst of trying to find
> another home for the boy.
>
> Phillips doesn�t blame anyone for what happened but said there are
> serious gaps in the system that autistic children and their families
> are prone to fall through, especially in emergency situations.
>
> Right now, she said, the only option for most parents with an out-of-
> control autistic child is to call the police, who will take the child
> to the Royal Alexandra�s psych ward. She said the province needs to
> create emergency beds for children in crisis and have more supports in
> place for them and their families.
>
> �These gaps and these problems are well recognized in government. We
> are trying to work toward closing them, but unfortunately, and
> horrendously, for this family it was too late.�
>
> Adam Holm, a spokesman for Edmonton and Area Child and Family
> Services, said he could not comment specifically on the family�s
> belief that gaps in the system contributed to Sunday�s deaths. He said
> families who feel their children are endangering themselves or others
> always have the option to call the police or to call the 24-hour child
> at risk response unit.
>
> Holm said 27 per cent of the children on the province�s Family Support
> for Children with Disabilities program have autism spectrum disorder.
--
Carol
Contessa of Consternation
Known to leave foes discombobulated
Autistic Spectrum Code v.1.0
AS? d- s--:+ a+ c+ p+ t-- f S+ p@- e+ h- r- n+(-) i+ P m-() M
http://www32.brinkster.com/ascdecode/
"I have run rings around you logically". Monty Python
Email at clay_p...@nospam.com, removing the 'nospam' and replacing
with 'msn'.
Bob Badour
That happens here in PEI all the time. Drugs are not covered and neither
is the travel necessary to get to the handful of places where treatment
is available. When my dog, Buddy, was sick, it was a 90 minute drive for
treatment. For me, it would be 4 hours.
> From what you describe, it sounds to me like any meaningful
> reform of health care ought to include a heavily-discounted
> tuition rate for anyone studying to be a primary-care doctor.
That's not necessary because doctors already earn plenty enough money to
pay for their own tuition. What governments need to do is set the
standards for competence, make sure any competent doctor is licensed to
practice, and then get out of the way.
Most of the doctors here were I live come from the 3rd world because the
college of physicians is allowed to control (ie. limit) the number of
entrants and graduates without regard to skill or competence, but they
don't have control of the number of graduates in other countries.
> That way, they won't be deep in debt when they graduate.
> That way, maybe there'll be more of them to go to.
> Here, *and* there.
It won't improve things here. The doctors here will leave and go
wherever they can set their own rates in a free market. If the US ceases
to be that place, someplace else will step up to take over.
After Obama fucks up the US market, you can be certain the best doctors
will relocate to places like Dubai. I expect at least one Caribbean
island will set itself up as the standard for world excellence in
medicine with all the doctors who would otherwise work in Minnesota at
the Mayo. People already travel to China, India and Mexico as medical
tourists.
Bob Badour
I miss when I worked in NJ without insurance. I used to go to a clinic
on Route 10 in Livingston or East Hanover that didn't take appointments.
I never waited longer than 5 minutes before seeing a doctor and prices
were very reasonable. Whenever they asked if I had insurance, I would
jokingly say I had the Visa Plan with 100% copay.
> I just paid off an outstanding 1200 medical bill, and I'm working on
> another 600 from when I had really lame insurance. Overall after 2
> kids and a lifetime of stupidity (derby injuries, hockey, etc) that's
> not that bad. They didn't want it all at once either I paid a bit a
> month.
$1200? Between the new set of snow tires and what I need to fix to pass
the safety inspection, my truck is going to cost me more than that next
week.
$600? I spent more than that for a tank of furnace oil. And I had to pay
cash up front!
Those costs sound quite reasonable to me. I spend $600/year just on
parasite prevention for my 3 dogs.
How much would it cost you if you were someone like Gareeth who would
qualify for medicare or medicaid or whatever it is called?
> As to Canadian health insurance I've heard some horror stories in
> regards to referrals and things that aren't considered "necessary".
> This is why many Canadians come to the US for treatment. I'm not anti-
> Canada either I love the place even though I'm no longer a citizen (I
> was born there).
>
> Nikki
Apparently, I walked around for years with disgusting pus running down
the back of my head because I had a fantasy that I was locked out of
medical care for having no family doctor. (Not to mention the cancer
that runs in my family for which I could not get a referral for
screening.) I must have been hallucinating when the doctor at the
walk-in clinic flat out refused to refer me, and when every doctor in
the phone book told me he or she was not taking any new patients. When
calling up the hospital to have my name added to the list of 20,000
names of people in the area looking for a family doctor, I must have
simply imagined that it was pointless and that nobody ever called to say
my name was at the top of the list. It must have been just a fantasy,
because Gareeth knows it could not be true. ::rolls eyes::
Apparently, my neighbour had a fantasy that she was checked out of the
hospital while her white blood count was so high the next doctor who saw
her 6 months later was very surprised she had survived. In the fantasy,
the 2nd doctor's eyes nearly popped out of his head when he opened her
records and read the results from the CBC the previous doctor had ordered.
Her previous doctor checked her out of the hospital because his locum
contract was over and once he left there would be nobody to supervise
her stay or check her out later. There was also no doctor to check her
blood results when they came in so they weren't looked at until 6 months
later when she showed up at emerg again still sick. Some clerk dutifully
added them to her file, though. That had to have been a fantasy too
because if Gareeth has access to medical care then apparently everybody
in Canada must. There's just no other possibility.
Bob Badour
> AmaranthQueen wrote:
>
>>As to Canadian health insurance I've heard some horror stories in
>>regards to referrals and things that aren't considered "necessary".
>>This is why many Canadians come to the US for treatment. I'm not
>>anti- Canada either I love the place even though I'm no longer a
>>citizen (I was born there).
>
> I think a lot of the horror stories are made up or exagerated. Like there
> was a woman from Ontario who appeared on them and it was made out like she
> had to go to the US because surgery on tumours wasn't considered necessary
> so she would have to wait here for a few months.
I did not make up anything that happened to me. Neither did I exagerate
anything. You offend me beyond words when you deny the obscene reality I
have endured for 15 years.
> It is just difficult for me to understand how a country can be a developed
> nation and not desire universal access to health care.
We don't fucking have it here. Your desire for it is pointless if we
cannot and do not deliver it. Canada does not fucking deliver universal
healthcare. 15% of the population -- millions of people -- have no
access to healthcare because they have no fucking family doctor.
Millions of people in Ontario are forcibly prevented from spending their
own money on their own fucking healthcare even when they can afford it.
That's obscene. No other word describes that situation.
It's fucking obscene. And it's equally fucking obscene when you blithely
dismiss and deny the reality that millions of people face. I directly
lived and experienced this. You basically call me deluded or lying you
fucking ignorant bitch when you say I am fantasising or exagerating.
Fuck off!
On almost every group
> I am on this is being hotly discussed but the consensus (among insured well
> off Americans anyway) is that you guys don't need or want health care
> reform. That's pretty hard to understand given you already spend more per
> captita of tax payers money on it than other countries that people would
> settle for a non universal system.
Can you cite a reference for that remarkable statement?
Martijn Dekker
Bob Badour <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Gareeth wrote:
>
> > On almost every group
> > I am on this is being hotly discussed but the consensus (among insured well
> > off Americans anyway) is that you guys don't need or want health care
> > reform. That's pretty hard to understand given you already spend more per
> > captita of tax payers money on it than other countries that people would
> > settle for a non universal system.
>
> Can you cite a reference for that remarkable statement?
http://www.atr.org/u-s-govt-spends-more-taxpayer-a3672
This is from a capitalist-greed-will-cure-everything kind of source, so
you should find it quite credible.
- M.
earthpots
>
> How much would it cost you if you were someone like Gareeth who would
> qualify for medicare or medicaid or whatever it is called?
>
Straight Medicaid? It would cost nothing. Medicaid is a totally free program
for poor people who are way below the federal poverty level. There are also
sliding-scale programs through Medical Assistance, which are funded by
Medicaid. One is CHIP (Childens Health Insurance Program) and the other,
(depending on the state you live in) is called Primary or Physician Care
Services. PC provides basic office visit care, and a low co-pay medication
card.
Some states have SHIP (Seniors Health Insurance Program) in lieu of Medicaid
for Seniors who don't collect SSA retirement benefits, and don't get
Medicare or get only SSI. Medicare is the program for people over 62
collecting Social Security Retirement, or any adult over 18 with a full
disability (which is what I am, and what I get). It is set up like many
insurance programs, there are premiums for Part B&D (but not for Part A),
deductables for Part A services, co-pays for nearly everything, except lab
work and diagnostic screenings.
Many seniors get Medigap coverage to lower the additional costs. If your
income is low, Medicaid funds a Medicare Savings Plan (MSP) which pays the
premiums, deductables and co-pays. So, there isn't one straight answer to
this. If Gareeth were a typical US Medicare recipient, she would be paying
anywhere from $400 to $800 a day for hospitalization for her knee surgery.
She would have a 20% co-pay on a doctor and other medical staff charges.
X-Rays, CAT scans, lab work, etc would cost nothing. Surgical supplies and
the knee would be another 20% co-pay. Medications would be discounted under
Part D, depending on her income and what plan she uses. In the end, she
would be responsible for several thousand dollars of her money, unless her
income is low enough to qualify for the Medicare Savings Plan (MSP); in
which her costs would be only her medication co-pays. If Medicaid qualified
(which is extremely unlikely she'd qualify for) it would be nothing. PC
would not even cover her surgery. She would have to apply for Catastophic
Medicaid, after the fact, and pay $2000 or more (amount varies by state)
per day of her own money, for each day she was hopitalized and/or in rehab.
Because my Social Security Disability Insurance payments are under the
limits for the Medicare Savings Program (MSP), I get Medicare, plus Medical
Assistance. I have 100% coverage for everything, except my medications, for
which I pay around $50 a month with the low co-pays. The federal government
runs Medicare, the states use Medicaid funds to run all Medical Assistance
programs: traditional Medicaid, CHIP, SHIP, PC, MSP and Catasrophic.
Many Medicaid and Medicare patients use managed care through an Insurance
Agency. Some states require Medicaid patients to enroll in such a plan. You
are limited to the doctors and hospitals in the network. Traditional
Medicare patients are free to go to any doctor or health facility which
accepts Medicare Asignment, which the majority do. None of these programs
traditionally cover dental or vision. Medigap policies and Medicaid managed
care often add these services. Medicaid for children and CHIP have limited
dental and vision. Medicare covers visual fields, dilated eye-exams and
cateract care, if need for a medical condition. For ex: Diabetics get
dilated eye exams paid for by Medicare, as well as Glaucoma screenings. Some
states add dental and vision; my sister in Delaware has PC, and they told
her she can get refractive eye exams with her PC card at the local health
clinic that accepts PC cards.
If American Health Care were only so simple, and I haven't even addressed
the myriads of insurance programs such as managed care, HMO's, PPO's, etc.
Gareeth
> >> Can you cite a reference for that remarkable statement?
>
> http://www.atr.org/u-s-govt-spends-more-taxpayer-a3672
>
> This is from a capitalist-greed-will-cure-everything kind of source,
> so you should find it quite credible.
>
enough in enough places.
Gareeth
Bob Badour
The ad hominem sophistry is weak. If you think I give much credence to
any kind of ideologue, then either you haven't been listening or you are
an ideologue yourself. Apparently, those figures are reported second or
third hand originating with the UN. I don't find the UN particularly
credible for any purpose; however, if you can find the original source
of the figures, we can at least examine the method used to arrive at
them for evaluating credibility.
Bob Badour
As are Wakefield and an endless stream of "sources" for the thimerosal
and/or mercury and/or vaccines cause autism "facts". Bald unsupported
assertions with vague hand-wavy references to google lack credibility.
Find an original source, and we will examine that source to see how much
credence we can give it.
Bob Badour
I don't know about BC. But neither of the 2 provinces where I have lived
cover prescription drugs, eye exams, glasses or dental. Well, parts of
the eye exam are covered and parts are not, I think. So it sounds rather
similar.
Nobody seems to notice that we never have any difficulty attracting
plenty of dentists, optometrists and veterinarians to the area even
while our emergency room gets shut down for having 0 doctors to attend
it. And that's after they closed 1 of the 2 emergency rooms entirely.
While I haven't done an exhaustive survey, I estimate in the ballpark of
10 clergy per doctor in the area.
I admit this is a remote area. I note the free market seems to deliver
what people want, though, even here.
Baba Yaga
> On almost every group
>> I am on this is being hotly discussed but the consensus (among insured well
>> off Americans anyway) is that you guys don't need or want health care
>> reform. That's pretty hard to understand given you already spend more per
>> captita of tax payers money on it than other countries that people would
>> settle for a non universal system.
>
>Can you cite a reference for that remarkable statement?
According to the WHO, the US spends - or, a year or three ago, spent -
very nearly the same proportion of GDP on public sector healthcare
(serving a small percentage of the population) as does the UK (serving
most of the population all of the time, and all of the population some
of the time). I've lost the original URL, have since looked the
information up (and IIRC had to derive the result from the information
I found by searching the WHO website, which is one reason why I'm not
especially eager to do it again), and am too lazy to look it up again.
(The relevant amount was about 15% in both cases, if I recall aright -
about 1% higher in the UK, but it's to be noted that per capita GDP in
the US is higher than that in the UK. The absolute amounts are
probably about the same.)
I rather suspect that all advanced healthcare systems are somewhat
broken, and that horror stories are universal (especially to
psychiatry, which after all is as much social control as healthcare),
but it seems pretty plain to me that the US system is relatively *very
broken. (It's possible that a system based on insurance from mutuals
adn co-operatives might not be, but I cannot see how a commercially
based insurance system can fail to be so, at least without significant
regulation to ensure that the industry, rather than the patient or the
state, bears the costs of short-term thinking.)
Regarding the 'no doctor' problem, I know another Canadian in that
predicament, apparently because her health needs are dauntingly
complex, and it is outrageous. The founders of the NHS had the wisdom
to ensure that no doctor could de-register a patient unless some other
doctor was willing to take him on - clearly a necessary precaution,
given that some patients (I regret that I have been one) no medic
would wish to have on his list. And that some areas have much better
GP:patient ratios than others.
Vaguely relatedly, I recently had occasion to contact the health board
here to find out if one is allowed *not* to be registered with an NHS
doctor. (One is. The NHS is just obliged to ensure that one does
have one if one wishes to.)
Baba Yaga
--
Without our shadow aspects we'd be bland, dull, incomplete.
- Juniper
earthpots
I know someone who lives in Nova Scotia, and he has full medical, including
prescriptions, vision and dental. He has commented on the contrasr between
NS and PEI next door, and mentioned that while Canda provides basic
hospitalization, the Provinces cover office visits and may provide
additional services. So, coverage varies depending on Province, there is no
consistency. He once lived in Ontario, and said that NS benefits are far
better than what coverage he had in Ontario. Sounds a bit like Medicaid
here, since each state decides what medicaid coverage provides.
Medicare is Federal run, so the coverage is pretty much the same, unless you
have a Medicare Savings Plan from your state funded by Medicaid, which may
have services in addition to Medicaid. I have read varying comments on
Canadian health care, people either praise or condemn it. A lot of the
comments depend on where the person lives, and their experience. Some
Canadians have said that the US doesn't want Canadian style health care, as
it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.
Gareeth
>
> Regarding the 'no doctor' problem, I know another Canadian in that
> predicament, apparently because her health needs are dauntingly
> complex, and it is outrageous. The founders of the NHS had the wisdom
> to ensure that no doctor could de-register a patient unless some other
> doctor was willing to take him on - clearly a necessary precaution,
> given that some patients (I regret that I have been one) no medic
> would wish to have on his list.
The whole getting a doctor works a bit differently here. It is interesting
that your friend has trouble because her needs are complex. I got mine
because mine are because my doctor thought I would be interesting. Granted
most of his interest was due to my autism but my health situation on the
whole is very complicated.
Gareeth
Gareeth
> I know someone who lives in Nova Scotia, and he has full medical,
> including prescriptions, vision and dental. He has commented on the
> contrasr between NS and PEI next door, and mentioned that while Canda
> provides basic hospitalization, the Provinces cover office visits and
> may provide additional services. So, coverage varies depending on
> Province, there is no consistency.
There is some consitency due to the Canada Health Act. That sets out some
things that absolutely must happen and must not happen. Past that provinces
have some freedom. Novia Scotia does not give full prescription coverage. I
was prety sure of that but double checked with the page that outlines the
plan. They do limit how much a senior can pay and after that they pay it
all. Many provinces including BC have plans like that but don't limit it to
seniors. Here you can only pay 3 percent of your income to prescriptions and
then it is 100 percent covered. I have 100 percent coverage because of
disability. Nova Scotia's dental coverage is also not full it is limited to
medically necessary. (
http://novascotiaimmigration.com/health-care/ns-medical-services-insurance)
There has been a lot of talk about universal pharmacare being added on here.
It frequently comes up and I do believe it is true that such a plan may even
save money because people do get sicker if they are trying to take less
medicine or can't take the ones prescribed at all. It is fine to say pay 3
percent of your income and then it is free but in reality if you are living
close to the bone that 3 percent may present a huge hurdle. I know one time
before I had any sort of drug insurance I had an infection and left the ER
without what would have been a 14 dollar prescription for anitbiotics
because I had absolutely no money and had not eaten for a few days even.
Predictably I worsened and eventually wound up in hospital for much more
expensive treatment.
No plan is perfect but I am relatively grateful for things as they are here.
I spent the morning at an education class for my upcoming knee replacement
and the topic of healthcare came up. No one in that room had had a wait of
longer than 3 months for their replacement unless they chose a later date.
Everyone was pretty happy about the whole experience thus far. Some of them
were better off financially but none had considered going South for this.
One guy did opt to buy a different joint than is typically covered though
believing that to be a better choice for him.
Gareeth
Bob Badour
> No plan is perfect but I am relatively grateful for things as they are here.
So, you are grateful that millions of people are effectively shut out of
healthcare here and that some people who have the means to pay for
healthcare are forcibly prevented from doing so. Wonderful. As long as
you are getting yours, it's clear the rest of us don't matter.
Bob Badour
> Bob Badour <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote, in alt.support.autism:
>
>>>On almost every group
>>>I am on this is being hotly discussed but the consensus (among insured well
>>>off Americans anyway) is that you guys don't need or want health care
>>>reform. That's pretty hard to understand given you already spend more per
>>>captita of tax payers money on it than other countries that people would
>>>settle for a non universal system.
>>
>>Can you cite a reference for that remarkable statement?
>
> According to the WHO, the US spends - or, a year or three ago, spent -
> very nearly the same proportion of GDP on public sector healthcare
> (serving a small percentage of the population) as does the UK (serving
> most of the population all of the time, and all of the population some
> of the time). I've lost the original URL, have since looked the
> information up (and IIRC had to derive the result from the information
> I found by searching the WHO website, which is one reason why I'm not
> especially eager to do it again), and am too lazy to look it up again.
>
> (The relevant amount was about 15% in both cases, if I recall aright -
> about 1% higher in the UK, but it's to be noted that per capita GDP in
> the US is higher than that in the UK. The absolute amounts are
> probably about the same.)
Are you seriously suggesting that 15% of GDP is spent in taxpayer money
on just that part of healthcare provided by government in the US? That
would be over half of the tax collected:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
The US does not spend more than half of the public sector on medicare,
medicaid and veterans affairs. Sorry. That's just not credible.
> I rather suspect that all advanced healthcare systems are somewhat
> broken, and that horror stories are universal (especially to
> psychiatry, which after all is as much social control as healthcare),
> but it seems pretty plain to me that the US system is relatively *very
> broken. (It's possible that a system based on insurance from mutuals
> adn co-operatives might not be, but I cannot see how a commercially
> based insurance system can fail to be so, at least without significant
> regulation to ensure that the industry, rather than the patient or the
> state, bears the costs of short-term thinking.)
Mutuals and co-operatives are businesses too. They operate by the same
rules and behave exactly the same as other insurance companies. You seem
to have very collectivist prejudices or blind spots.
You and I will have to agree to disagree. I would say any system that
uses the force of the state to prevent people from spending their own
money on their own healthcare is far, far more broken irrespective of
any reduction in spending.
> Regarding the 'no doctor' problem, I know another Canadian in that
> predicament, apparently because her health needs are dauntingly
> complex, and it is outrageous.
Central planning is central planning. It has never worked, and it never
will work. I find it obscene to use the force of the state to break the
market.
> The founders of the NHS had the wisdom
> to ensure that no doctor could de-register a patient unless some other
> doctor was willing to take him on - clearly a necessary precaution,
How does that prevent doctors from dying? Or just leaving the country?
Or refusing to show up for work?
> given that some patients (I regret that I have been one) no medic
> would wish to have on his list. And that some areas have much better
> GP:patient ratios than others.
>
> Vaguely relatedly, I recently had occasion to contact the health board
> here to find out if one is allowed *not* to be registered with an NHS
> doctor. (One is. The NHS is just obliged to ensure that one does
> have one if one wishes to.)
What sort of service does one expect to get from a service provider who
resents having one as a customer? I see no reason to expect doctors to
exhibit any less passive aggression than anyone else.