politics and autism
Bob Badour
what the regulars here think about it.
It revolves around a tempest in a teacup involving Sarah Pripas who
co-directs a chapter of ASAN:
http://www.autisticadvocacy.org/modules/smartsection/category.php?categoryid=15
http://asanla.blogspot.com/
Apparently, among autistics it is an open secret that Sarah has a blog
at http://autisticcats.blogspot.com/
It seems Sarah was posting letters and such semi-anonymously on her blog
in support of ASAN as if she was some interested 3rd party and not the
co-director of a chapter. This then caused her to engage in some heavy
handed censorship when anyone mentioned her position at ASAN where her
identity is fully acknowledged.
When she found out her full name was linked to her blog on a 3rd party
site, she asked for the site owner to remove the page that made the
link. In the end, she made an explicit allegation of harassment to scare
the site owner into engaging in some more heavy handed censorship.
I didn't like the manipulation of alleging harassment no matter how
outrageous the allegation, and I thought it lent credence to some
similar criticisms directed at ASAN and Ari Ne'eman, which saddens me.
I understand a lot of autistics use pseudonyms, and I understand why. Do
those use pseudonyms think it would be right to continue using the
pseudonym in some places after taking a very public position that
necessarily discloses one's autism?
Does anyone else think it is a little sock-puppetish to post support for
one's political organization under a pseudonym?
Stephen Horne
<bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Does anyone else think it is a little sock-puppetish to post support for
>one's political organization under a pseudonym?
Yes, I do.
I can see that there would be times when some opinion is better
expressed without being linked back to the organisation. In that
sense, I can accept having an anonymous blog as valid.
But (and I say this without knowing anything much about the person,
the organisation, the blog or the situation) I do agree that "3rd
party" advocacy of an organisation you that you have any significant
links to is unethical.
Likewise, the manipulation and allegation of harassment is no doubt
only going to do one thing - backfire, dragging the reputation of the
organisation through the dirt.
What's more, by adopting that role in that organisation, she has made
herself something of a symbol of autism. When she uses underhand
manipulative tactics and bullying to get what she wants, a little bit
of that dirt sticks to all of us.
astri
> I understand a lot of autistics use pseudonyms, and I understand why.
> Do those use pseudonyms think it would be right to continue using the
> pseudonym in some places after taking a very public position that
> necessarily discloses one's autism?
i think it is reasonable to maintain privacy barriers regarding some
kinds of personal information. if i want to maintain my privacy, i need
to be extremely careful that what i do non-anonymously can not be
linked to what i do anonymously.
> Does anyone else think it is a little sock-puppetish to post support
> for one's political organization under a pseudonym?
yes. and it is the kind of thing that can compromise an anonymous
pseudonym.
-- astri
======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
Aquarian Monkey
>
> I understand a lot of autistics use pseudonyms, and I understand why. Do
> those use pseudonyms think it would be right to continue using the
> pseudonym in some places after taking a very public position that
> necessarily discloses one's autism?
I'm not sure I'm following your question here. Sorry. Do you mean
would it be ok for me to keep posting here under this name even if I
was "recognizable" as myself, when people would not know that AM and
<insert real name> were the same person? Therefore making me look like
2 separate individuals? Or allowing me to act like to different
individuals?...dunno why that question is so hard for me to
understand...
> Does anyone else think it is a little sock-puppetish to post support for
> one's political organization under a pseudonym?
Totally. What else could it be? Maybe I have a blind spot, but I can't
think of a legitimate reason to do that.
I do understand why people want to keep their identities private. And
I see no problem with it, as long as you are not using the privacy to
engage in...what's the word I'm looking for?...I mean, I'm not trying
to mislead anyone by not using my real name. I am trying to protect my
kids, since I talk about them and they are not old enough yet to give
me permission to share about them in public, ykwim? But if I were "me"
in this community, but then using this pseudonym to pretend I wasn't
me, it just seems...sketchy?
Alice
> On Mar 29, 9:34 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> I understand a lot of autistics use pseudonyms, and I understand why. Do
>> those use pseudonyms think it would be right to continue using the
>> pseudonym in some places after taking a very public position that
>> necessarily discloses one's autism?
>
> I'm not sure I'm following your question here. Sorry. Do you mean
> would it be ok for me to keep posting here under this name even if I
> was "recognizable" as myself, when people would not know that AM and
> <insert real name> were the same person? Therefore making me look like
> 2 separate individuals? Or allowing me to act like to different
> individuals?...dunno why that question is so hard for me to
> understand...
>
i do not use a pseudonym *here*, but i've been online long enough to recognize
the need for such (including a potential stalker or two that i thankfully had
brains enough not to give specific addresses to).
on an autistic level, where the stigma of the label itself presents a whole new
slew of problems, i also understand. keyword: "stigma". i have lost jobs in web
design because i was better at my "autism" sites than my regular sites, but i
couldn't show the interviewers the better work because i feared the stigma
associated with it. would i have been better off confessing? read on...
one can call up the "protocol" of an interview to a certain extent. even if
one's behavior is a little odd to the co-workers after hiring and you're getting
the job done, it's ok. but, if you come in with the label already, you're
automatically treated as if you're the incapably "token"
autie/retard/gimp/african-american/female/(insert stereotype here). (btw, i live
in the "enlightened" part of the bible belt in the US)
>> Does anyone else think it is a little sock-puppetish to post support for
>> one's political organization under a pseudonym?
>
> Totally. What else could it be? Maybe I have a blind spot, but I can't
> think of a legitimate reason to do that.
>
> I do understand why people want to keep their identities private. And
> I see no problem with it, as long as you are not using the privacy to
> engage in...what's the word I'm looking for?...I
free advertising? megalomania? spam? fraud? (not sure where this goes, so pick one.)
mean, I'm not trying
> to mislead anyone by not using my real name. I am trying to protect my
> kids, since I talk about them and they are not old enough yet to give
> me permission to share about them in public, ykwim? But if I were "me"
> in this community, but then using this pseudonym to pretend I wasn't
> me, it just seems...sketchy?
>
no. you fit none of the above categories nor their counterparts.
-alice
Bob Badour
> On Mar 29, 9:34 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>I understand a lot of autistics use pseudonyms, and I understand why. Do
>>those use pseudonyms think it would be right to continue using the
>>pseudonym in some places after taking a very public position that
>>necessarily discloses one's autism?
>
> I'm not sure I'm following your question here. Sorry. Do you mean
> would it be ok for me to keep posting here under this name even if I
> was "recognizable" as myself, when people would not know that AM and
> <insert real name> were the same person? Therefore making me look like
> 2 separate individuals? Or allowing me to act like to different
> individuals?...dunno why that question is so hard for me to
> understand...
I left out a critical word, so that might make it difficult to parse.
Regardless, I think whether one can preserve pseudonymity depends on
context and what one attempts to do with that pseudonymity.
In Sarah's case, I think she could have preserved her pseudonymity a
couple different ways. She could have posted anything prosyletizing for
ASAN from her ASAN chapter's blog under her real name, or she could have
indicated something about her association with ASAN when prosyletizing
for ASAN from her pseudonymous blog. Anything that indicated she is an
ASAN insider would have sufficed, in my opinion; even if it wasn't
enough to identify her.
The way she handled comment moderation was flawed too, but I am inclined
to think that was an error made in panicky haste. Instead of editing
comments and then deleting them, I think a better approach would have
been to send them back to the originator politely asking the author to
rephrase things to preserve her pseudonymity.
>>Does anyone else think it is a little sock-puppetish to post support for
>>one's political organization under a pseudonym?
>
> Totally. What else could it be? Maybe I have a blind spot, but I can't
> think of a legitimate reason to do that.
Neither can I. I can see how someone who has difficulty with dual
perspective might make an honest mistake, though.
> I do understand why people want to keep their identities private. And
> I see no problem with it, as long as you are not using the privacy to
> engage in...what's the word I'm looking for?...I mean, I'm not trying
> to mislead anyone by not using my real name. I am trying to protect my
> kids, since I talk about them and they are not old enough yet to give
> me permission to share about them in public, ykwim? But if I were "me"
> in this community, but then using this pseudonym to pretend I wasn't
> me, it just seems...sketchy?
I think perhaps the word you are looking for is "deception."
In a bit of synchronicity, we are having a similar issue in the
political sphere up here in Canada:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/politicalsockpuppetry
Aquarian Monkey
<SNIP>
I said...
> > I do understand why people want to keep their identities private. And
> > I see no problem with it, as long as you are not using the privacy to
> > engage in...what's the word I'm looking for?...
and then Bob said...
> I think perhaps the word you are looking for is "deception."
It's really deception's eviler twin. Is there a word for that? LOL!
Bob Badour
Subterfuge?
Eva
"Bob Badour" <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4bb1550d$0$12456$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
I have no idea what you were talking about in the majority of this post, but
I can definitely answer "Yes--more than 'a little'!" to that last question.
Eva
The Autist formerly known as
anything to prevent Ari Neeman from being appointed to the disability
council he has been nominated to.
That involves all manner of creating guilt by association and shooting down
of ASAN. It is all counter productive.
I am most sorry to see the argument taken here.
--
�T
L'autisme c'est moi
"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
"Bob Badour" <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4bb1550d$0$12456$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
Bob Badour
> That is not the point, there are some people with agendas who will do
> anything to prevent Ari Neeman from being appointed to the disability
> council he has been nominated to.
>
> That involves all manner of creating guilt by association and shooting down
> of ASAN. It is all counter productive.
>
> I am most sorry to see the argument taken here.
That may be. However, I am not one of those people, and that is not my
agenda.
I will hold those who would represent me as an autistic to the same high
standards I hold those who represent me as a taxpayer or as a voter or
as a professional etc.
I chose to bring this discussion here specifically because usenet is not
amenable to censorship (self-censorship or otherwise) and because the
ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of paramount
importance to me.
Aquarian Monkey
Aquarian Monkey
<0...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> That is not the point, there are some people with agendas who will do
> anything to prevent Ari Neeman from being appointed to the disability
> council he has been nominated to.
>
> That involves all manner of creating guilt by association and shooting down
> of ASAN. It is all counter productive.
>
> I am most sorry to see the argument taken here.
I'll admit my ignorance. I don't know what you are talking about.
So my response was in no way politically motivated. But I still find
the behavior to be deceptive and I have to say that even though the
stakes are not as high for me, I would agree with Bob. I have a
tendency to hold certain people to certain standards (like
professionals, clergy, government officials, etc). I don't think there
is anything wrong with that, especially if they may be representing me
or being entrusted to make decisions on my behalf.
That being said, everyone makes mistakes, and even honest people with
a lot of integrity can do things that are not true to who they are.
You need to be careful to understand the big picture.
Stephen Horne
<0...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>That is not the point, there are some people with agendas who will do
>anything to prevent Ari Neeman from being appointed to the disability
>council he has been nominated to.
>
>That involves all manner of creating guilt by association and shooting down
>of ASAN. It is all counter productive.
>
>I am most sorry to see the argument taken here.
I have no idea who Ari Neeman is any more than I know who Sarah Pripas
is.
Quite frankly, I don't care who's side anyone is on - if they are
being manipulative and deceptive, I don't want them representing me.
If there's unethical tactics being used against ASAN, point it out and
if I agree then I will say so - but that doesn't mean that Sarah
Pripas or anyone else is then suddenly allowed to be unethical. As
every five-year-old should know, two wrongs don't make a right.
The Autist formerly known as
unethical, but that they are being represented as so.
That is as objectionable as any original misdemeanour.
It is a question of who do you believe, and whose motivations do you trust.
Personally I have a lot of trust in Ari Neeman, and suspicion of some of
those who wish to discredit his organisation, because that can only be of
benefit to others who seek ari's position, those who are no friends to us.
--
şT
L'autisme c'est moi
"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
"Stephen Horne" <sh006...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:r1mar5p1kgvq6aps6...@4ax.com...
The Autist formerly known as
honourable motives than ASAN.
Individual representation is always a legislative fiction, no one person in
any large community can accurately represent the beliefs and aspirations of
every single constituent, not in the least because those are likely to be
paradoxical an contradictory. One therfore advocates a community rather than
individuals.
In that advocacy however it should in no wise substitute for the right of
the individual to represent him/herself and any advocacy that tends toward
the acknowlegement of that fact is better than advocacy that rides roughshod
over it making many assumptions. I am aftraid the alternatives do just that,
therefore in a less than ideal, and less than being capable of ideal world I
support the flawed humans of ASAN in preference to any alternative that
currently exists.
--
şT
L'autisme c'est moi
"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
"Bob Badour" <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4bb50e70$0$12426$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
Bob Badour
> "Bob Badour" <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4bb50e70$0$12426$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
>
>> That may be. However, I am not one of those people, and that is not my
>> agenda.
>>
>> I will hold those who would represent me as an autistic to the same high
>> standards I hold those who represent me as a taxpayer or as a voter or as
>> a professional etc.
>>
>> I chose to bring this discussion here specifically because usenet is not
>> amenable to censorship (self-censorship or otherwise) and because the
>> ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of paramount
>> importance to me.
>
> Try telling that to Autism Speaks or Grasp then, who act with much less
> honourable motives than ASAN.
I do. And to their shame, they ignore me.
> Individual representation is always a legislative fiction, no one person in
> any large community can accurately represent the beliefs and aspirations of
> every single constituent, not in the least because those are likely to be
> paradoxical an contradictory. One therfore advocates a community rather than
> individuals.
I don't expect my representatives to hold exactly my views on every
issue or even any of my views on any issue. I only expect them to act
ethically.
> In that advocacy however it should in no wise substitute for the right of
> the individual to represent him/herself and any advocacy that tends toward
> the acknowlegement of that fact is better than advocacy that rides roughshod
> over it making many assumptions. I am aftraid the alternatives do just that,
> therefore in a less than ideal, and less than being capable of ideal world I
> support the flawed humans of ASAN in preference to any alternative that
> currently exists.
In that case, why are you whining about it here instead of impressing
upon ASAN the importance of stepping up to address the questions that
have been raised and to correct any deficiencies in their official
policies and codes so that the Senate can get on with the confirmation
secure in the knowledge Ari has no skeletons in his closet that might
come back to bite them later?
Why isn't Ari or anyone else from ASAN here discussing this issue with
us? He periodically spams the newsgroup with announcements so he knows
how to find us.
Janna
<0...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> This is the problem though, not that they are necessarily manipulative and
> unethical, but that they are being represented as so.
>
> That is as objectionable as any original misdemeanour.
>
> It is a question of who do you believe, and whose motivations do you trust.
>
> Personally I have a lot of trust in Ari Neeman, and suspicion of some of
> those who wish to discredit his organisation, because that can only be of
> benefit to others who seek ari's position, those who are no friends to us.
My only problem with ASAN is the complete lack of response. It
bothered me when the first accusation was made, months ago, and it
bothers me now, with the new issue. Nobody from ASAN has bothered to
go to where these accusations and discussions are being made except
for a couple of people who apparently don't have access to all of the
information they would need in order to make clear just what has
happened.
I still don't know exactly what happened the first time, and while I
believe I understand what happened this time, I'm not sure I'm right
since I really only got round-about information from a few people who
were involved.
I do think that people who are posting supportive information on their
blogs need to disclose their association with whomever/whatever they
are supporting. Just like how, when I post a book review, I note
whether or not the book was sent to me for that purpose. It's about
accountability. I don't care if people keep their real identities
secret; I use pseudonyms here and there, but always in conjunction
with my real name, so I'm not really anonymous. But I do care if they
are a member of an organization they are supporting and don't disclose
that.
Bob Badour
"Whose Planet Is It Anyway?" blog at http://autisticbfh.blogspot.com/ ?
She mentioned on a recent blog post that she is taking a break to enjoy
the spring. Does anyone know if she is vacationing away from her
computer? If so, does anyone know when she will return?
I have a couple quick questions for abfh about a comment that appeared
briefly on the "Countering Age of Autism" blog on March 21, 2010 at
8:26pm: http://tinyurl.com/yh4fgyh
The comment, which appeared under abfh's credential, was as follows:
> abfh has left a new comment on the post " Ari Ne'eman Doesn't Divide
> the Autistic Community":
>
> Kim, to the best of my recollection, ASAN has never made any public
> statements regarding facilitated communication. Perhaps you were
> thinking of the Autism National Committee instead?
>
> You can find ASAN's policy positions on health care and therapies
> here.
>
> Meg Evans
>
> Post a comment.
>
> Unsubscribe to comments on this post.
>
> Posted by abfh to Countering Age of Autism at March 21, 2010 8:36 PM
Meg Evans holds the office of Secretary of the Autistic Self Advocacy
Network (ASAN). http://tinyurl.com/asandirectors She also directs an
ASAN chapter in southwestern ohio.
On the same date, March 21, 2010, sometime between 3:39pm and 9:53pm,
Meg Evans sent an email to Kim Wombles, who operates "Countering AoA",
with information about ASAN's position on facilitated communication,
which caused Kim to remove a 3:39pm post she had written with an edited
version at 9:53pm.
The simplest and most direct explanation would be that abfh (autistic
bitch from hell) is a pseudonym Meg Evans uses to operate a blog, and
after posting a comment under the wrong identity and realizing her
mistake, deleted it to email it instead. I believe some people have
already jumped to this conclusion. This is important because abfh wrote
a piece proselytizing Ari Ne'eman and calling for the US Senate to
confirm his appointment to the NCD.
http://tinyurl.com/abfh4ari
This tends to give the same sockpuppet appearance as before.
I already reached out to Meg Evans, and she made it clear she does not
want to discuss this any further. So, please, nobody bother her with any
questions.
While I don't entirely understand Meg's reply, I think she denies using
the pseudonym, which means another person out there operates "Whose
Planet Is It Anyway?" under the abfh credential. I am trying to reach
that other person--not Meg Evans.
Meg did say she was unable to post a comment that day due to technical
problems and emailed it instead. I notice from abfh's wellsphere profile
that she too lives in Ohio:
http://stanford.wellsphere.com/abfh-profile/98219 Perhaps this
influenced whatever technical glitch crossed Meg Evan's failed post with
abfh's credential?
I already tried reaching abfh through her wellsphere profile, but I
received no reply. Wellsphere has some usability issues that might
account for the lack of reply, though, so I wonder if anyone who reads
this knows how to contact her. If anyone does, please have her email me
so I can ask a couple quick and simple questions.
Thank you!
Bob Badour
I guess I have my answer: The note on "Countering Age of Autism" showing
that abfh deleted a message posted on March 21 has been removed. At the
moment, one can still see it in the google cache (I don't know for how
long):
from
http://www.google.com/search?q=ne%27eman+site%3Acounteringageofautism.blogspot.com
Very clearly, Meg Evans, the Secretary of the Autistic Self Advocacy
Network, operates the "Whose Planet Is It Anyway?" blog under the name
"abfh" where she proselytizes for Ari Ne'eman, President of the Autistic
Self Advocacy Network, while refusing to disclose that close link as if
she were some less interested 3rd party.
This causes me grave concern regarding the ethics of Ari Ne'eman and the
organization he runs.
The Autist formerly known as
that can have sever repercussion on there personal lives that are
unintended, expecially in the sometimes vicious world of autism advocacy.
I know for instance that employers and universities are with increasing
frequency monitoring the blogs of employees and students with the result
that if they say something the boss does not approve of, they are out of a
job, or if they are a student they face disciplinary consequences.
A certain person very close to the autist has been put under a great deal of
pressure because of something they said about auti$m $qeaks recently, had
that person been anonymous perhaps they would not have been so effectively
silenced when speaking out about a particular incident. It complicates
matter that they were in the pay of a University hosting auti$m $queks
It is actually getting to the point that the advocacy community in being so
split on this issue is becoming as ridiculous as the curebie/mercurian
community who accuse any person speaking against them of being a big Pharma
shill.
It seems now that anyone supporting Ari Neeman in any capacity stands to be
accused of being in the pay, or under the influence of ASAN through
corporate obedience. I happen to be none of those things.
Make no mistake, any autistic who rises to prominence is likely to find a
backlash against orchestrated through whatever means and influences that
there opponents have at there disposal to silence them. We are being
co-opted into there ranks when we find reasons not to support the best
chance we have right now. Get Ari onto the Council, and then complain and
pressure him if he does not deliver, don't leave the gates open for someone
else who is sure not to.
--
şT
L'autisme c'est moi
"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
"Bob Badour" <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4bbe40ff$0$12436$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
Bob Badour
> I do not approve of outing anonymous bloggers for whatever reason, because
> that can have sever repercussion on there personal lives that are
> unintended, expecially in the sometimes vicious world of autism advocacy.
If one wants to remain pseudonymous, one must not use pseudonymity to
deceive or to give the appearance of deceiving. Meg Evans was given
every opportunity to make appropriate disclosures in the public interest
that would have preserved her pseudonymity. She chose not to.
> I know for instance that employers and universities are with increasing
> frequency monitoring the blogs of employees and students with the result
> that if they say something the boss does not approve of, they are out of a
> job, or if they are a student they face disciplinary consequences.
How is this different from any other period of time? Employers have a
right of free association too.
> A certain person very close to the autist has been put under a great deal of
> pressure because of something they said about auti$m $qeaks recently, had
> that person been anonymous perhaps they would not have been so effectively
> silenced when speaking out about a particular incident. It complicates
> matter that they were in the pay of a University hosting auti$m $queks
>
> It is actually getting to the point that the advocacy community in being so
> split on this issue is becoming as ridiculous as the curebie/mercurian
> community who accuse any person speaking against them of being a big Pharma
> shill.
>
> It seems now that anyone supporting Ari Neeman in any capacity stands to be
> accused of being in the pay, or under the influence of ASAN through
> corporate obedience. I happen to be none of those things.
I don't recall anyone accusing you of being in the pay of anyone.
> Make no mistake, any autistic who rises to prominence is likely to find a
> backlash against orchestrated through whatever means and influences that
> there opponents have at there disposal to silence them. We are being
> co-opted into there ranks when we find reasons not to support the best
> chance we have right now. Get Ari onto the Council, and then complain and
> pressure him if he does not deliver, don't leave the gates open for someone
> else who is sure not to.
No.
Once in a position of power and leadership, he will have even less
incentive to clean up ASAN's act. Either he heads an open, honest
organization that represents all autistics or he doesn't. And if he
doesn't want to represent all autistics, I don't see how he is fit to
represent any of us--let alone the entire disabled community.
First he demonstrates competence and honesty then he gets my support.
Not vice versa.
Eva
>
> Once in a position of power and leadership, [Ari Neeman] will have even
> organization that represents all autistics or he doesn't. And if he
> doesn't want to represent all autistics, I don't see how he is fit to
> represent any of us--let alone the entire disabled community.
If, as I understand it, the autistic community is divided between those who
want to be "cured" (or should I say those who want to "pass for normal"),
and those who do not, how can *anyone* possibly represent all autistics?
Eva
Bob Badour
Are you suggesting that the Office of the President of the United States
of America cannot possibly represent all Americans because some
Americans consider abortion murder and other Americans consider abortion
a woman's right over her own body?
I don't expect my representatives to agree with me on any issue let
alone every issue. I do, however, expect and demand ethical behaviour
from them including that they represent me even if we disagree on any or
every issue.
Eva
> Eva wrote:
>
>> "Bob Badour" <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:4bc4d679$0$12447$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
>>
>>>Once in a position of power and leadership, [Ari Neeman] will have even
>>>less incentive to clean up ASAN's act. Either he heads an open, honest
>>>organization that represents all autistics or he doesn't. And if he
>>>doesn't want to represent all autistics, I don't see how he is fit to
>>>represent any of us--let alone the entire disabled community.
>>
>> -------------
>> If, as I understand it, the autistic community is divided between those
>> who want to be "cured" (or should I say those who want to "pass for
>> normal"), and those who do not, how can *anyone* possibly represent all
>> autistics?
>>
>
> of America cannot possibly represent all Americans because some Americans
> consider abortion murder and other Americans consider abortion a woman's
> right over her own body?
This is not a good analogy, because abortion--though it's a "litmus test"
issue for a small percentage of Americans--is not a crucial, defining issue
that addresses who we are (as Americans), and what direction we should go
in. OTOH the question of whether autism is a disease that can/must be
cured or a different kind of brain-wiring that can/should be elucidated,
accepted, and accommodated for by society....this *is* that kind of crucial,
defining question.
---------------
>
> I don't expect my representatives to agree with me on any issue let alone
> every issue. I do, however, expect and demand ethical behaviour from them
> including that they represent me even if we disagree on any or every
> issue.
We should certainly hold public officials to ethical standards. I wasn't
disagreeing with you on that point. If Neeman has done dishonest things it
is a good reason not to appoint him.
I was just questioning the phrase "represent all autistics" based on what I
have learned in the past few months about these big debates within and
around the autistic community.
Eva
Bob Badour
So choose another issue that gets to the heart of what it means to be
American. Border enforcement, for example.
>>I don't expect my representatives to agree with me on any issue let alone
>>every issue. I do, however, expect and demand ethical behaviour from them
>>including that they represent me even if we disagree on any or every
>>issue.
> ------------------
> We should certainly hold public officials to ethical standards. I wasn't
> disagreeing with you on that point. If Neeman has done dishonest things it
> is a good reason not to appoint him.
>
> I was just questioning the phrase "represent all autistics" based on what I
> have learned in the past few months about these big debates within and
> around the autistic community.
Do you agree that the President of the United States of America
represents all Americans? Even those who disagree with him on important
issues?
Eva
You know, I live in New York City, and no one here gives a tinker's damn
about border enforcement. The terrorists who attacked us in 2001 were all
here legally.
I can't really think of an issue that's that big, that defining. Not since
the Vietnam War ended, anyhow. Or maybe that was just my generation's
issue.
-----------------
>>>I don't expect my representatives to agree with me on any issue let alone
>>>every issue. I do, however, expect and demand ethical behaviour from them
>>>including that they represent me even if we disagree on any or every
>>>issue.
>> ------------------
>> We should certainly hold public officials to ethical standards. I wasn't
>> disagreeing with you on that point. If Neeman has done dishonest things
>> it is a good reason not to appoint him.
>>
>> I was just questioning the phrase "represent all autistics" based on what
>> I have learned in the past few months about these big debates within and
>> around the autistic community.
>
> Do you agree that the President of the United States of America represents
> all Americans? Even those who disagree with him on important issues?
-----------------
In one sense, say at the negotiating table with other heads of state, he of
course represents all of us. But in a broader sense, no I don't agree.
Until our current President was elected, I felt for *many* years that
whoever was in the White House didn't represent me.
Eva
Arthur Golden
> I chose to bring this discussion here specifically because usenet is not
> amenable to censorship (self-censorship or otherwise) and because the
> ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of paramount
> importance to me.
Bob,
I note that you state:
"the ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of
paramount importance to me."
So I hope it is understandable to you that I became concerned about my
own ethical behavior when I discovered over 2 years ago that a very
influential person in the autism community was publicly stating on a
discussion board that it was unethical to mention telepathy in
connection with autistics. Even though this influential person was
writing about the then over 15 year-old statement of Professor Anne
Donnellan who was thereafter silent on this subject, I knew I was
still making such statements. Therefore, I asked this influential
person on the same public discussion board why it was unethical to
mention telepathy in connection with autistics. When I did not get an
answer that I understood, I asked for clarification. I will send you
the exact quotes of the messages by private email, but since you made
your statement here on usenet, I felt I should reply in the same
place. I welcome any public comments on what I wrote here from you or
from anyone else since I still do not understand what is unethical
about such statements and it causes me extreme anxiety to this day.
Arthur Golden
Bob Badour
> On Apr 2, 12:21 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>I chose to bring this discussion here specifically because usenet is not
>>amenable to censorship (self-censorship or otherwise) and because the
>>ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of paramount
>>importance to me.
>
> Bob,
>
> I note that you state:
>
> "the ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of
> paramount importance to me."
>
> So I hope it is understandable to you that I became concerned about my
> own ethical behavior when I discovered over 2 years ago that a very
> influential person in the autism community was publicly stating on a
> discussion board that it was unethical to mention telepathy in
> connection with autistics.
The word "ethics" has many different contextual meanings. It would be
unethical for a scientist or evidence-based practitioner to give
telepathy any serious consideration until some objective evidence for
the phenomenon exists. Many researchers have sought such evidence, and
thus far, no such evidence exists.
In the religious or spiritual realm, one is free to believe whatever one
wants.
As a general rule, scientists have no interest in discussing religion,
and it is a mistake to try to engage them at that level.
> Even though this influential person was
> writing about the then over 15 year-old statement of Professor Anne
> Donnellan who was thereafter silent on this subject, I knew I was
> still making such statements. Therefore, I asked this influential
> person on the same public discussion board why it was unethical to
> mention telepathy in connection with autistics. When I did not get an
> answer that I understood, I asked for clarification. I will send you
> the exact quotes of the messages by private email, but since you made
> your statement here on usenet, I felt I should reply in the same
> place.
I will watch for your email.
> I welcome any public comments on what I wrote here from you or
> from anyone else since I still do not understand what is unethical
> about such statements and it causes me extreme anxiety to this day.
Don't sweat the small stuff. It's all small stuff.
Bob Badour
> Bob Badour <bba...@pei.sympatico.ca> considered Sun, 18 Apr 2010
> 11:27:25 -0300 the perfect time to write:
>
>>Arthur Golden wrote:
>>
>>>On Apr 2, 12:21 am, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I chose to bring this discussion here specifically because usenet is not
>>>>amenable to censorship (self-censorship or otherwise) and because the
>>>>ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of paramount
>>>>importance to me.
>>>
>>>Bob,
>>>
>>>I note that you state:
>>>
>>>"the ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of
>>>paramount importance to me."
>>>
>>>So I hope it is understandable to you that I became concerned about my
>>>own ethical behavior when I discovered over 2 years ago that a very
>>>influential person in the autism community was publicly stating on a
>>>discussion board that it was unethical to mention telepathy in
>>>connection with autistics.
>>
>>The word "ethics" has many different contextual meanings. It would be
>>unethical for a scientist or evidence-based practitioner to give
>>telepathy any serious consideration until some objective evidence for
>>the phenomenon exists. Many researchers have sought such evidence, and
>>thus far, no such evidence exists.
>
> It also depends on the context of the mention.
> Would it be unethical for an influential person to say that non-verbal
> language often looked like telepathy to an autistic?
I would tell the influential person to speak for himself or herself.
Arthur Golden
[snip]
> The word "ethics" has many different contextual meanings. It would be
> unethical for a scientist or evidence-based practitioner to give
> telepathy any serious consideration until some objective evidence for
> the phenomenon exists. Many researchers have sought such evidence, and
> thus far, no such evidence exists.
>
> In the religious or spiritual realm, one is free to believe whatever one
> wants.
>
> As a general rule, scientists have no interest in discussing religion,
> and it is a mistake to try to engage them at that level.
If I had received a response from the influential person similar to
yours, I would have been satisfied, but as I will disclose to you by
private email, that was not the response I received over two years
ago.
[snip]
> Don't sweat the small stuff. It's all small stuff.
I accept it is "small stuff" to you, but to my son Ben and I, it is
not small stuff at all. It is a matter of utmost importance to us.
We have reason to believe that the researcher did not pursue such
research because she was threatened in having her career destroyed.
In fact, all of the "little people" who were experiencing telepathy,
who provided the direct services to the autistics, were literally
hunted down and fired from their jobs by the summer of 1993. The most
prominent parent involved, Ms. Kristi Jorde, founder of the Adriana
Foundation, fled Massachusetts to go out west and seems to still be
underground, although she was found recently as a real estate agent on
the west coast of Florida. Please note that my own son Ben kept his
abilities hidden until April, 1994 (after the witchhunt was over) and
soon thereafter was able to flee Massachusetts for the safety of the
Chareidi Community in Israel.
Bob Badour
> On Apr 18, 5:27 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>The word "ethics" has many different contextual meanings. It would be
>>unethical for a scientist or evidence-based practitioner to give
>>telepathy any serious consideration until some objective evidence for
>>the phenomenon exists. Many researchers have sought such evidence, and
>>thus far, no such evidence exists.
>>
>>In the religious or spiritual realm, one is free to believe whatever one
>>wants.
>>
>>As a general rule, scientists have no interest in discussing religion,
>>and it is a mistake to try to engage them at that level.
>
> If I had received a response from the influential person similar to
> yours, I would have been satisfied, but as I will disclose to you by
> private email, that was not the response I received over two years
> ago.
> [snip]
>
>>Don't sweat the small stuff. It's all small stuff.
>
> I accept it is "small stuff" to you, but to my son Ben and I, it is
> not small stuff at all. It is a matter of utmost importance to us.
If the scientific community disregards telepathy, what exactly is the
impact to you and your son? What difference will it make in your lives 5
or 10 years from now?
> We have reason to believe that the researcher did not pursue such
> research because she was threatened in having her career destroyed.
That's possible. All evidence thus far suggests telepathy doesn't exist.
To overcome that body of evidence, the evidence for telepathy would have
to be quite remarkable. If a scientist gave much credence to the idea of
telepathy without that remarkable evidence, the scientist's reputation
as a scientist would suffer.
I think what you experience is more easily and readily explained to
third parties by the psychomotor response, which is well-known and
documented etc. Just about anybody can perform simple experiments to
demonstrate the psychomotor response.
Until telepathy becomes measurable to third parties, it is not part of
any objective reality--as subjectively real as it may be to you and to
your son. Since everybody's subjective reality is different, I fail to
see what harm would come of that.
> In fact, all of the "little people" who were experiencing telepathy,
> who provided the direct services to the autistics, were literally
> hunted down and fired from their jobs by the summer of 1993. The most
> prominent parent involved, Ms. Kristi Jorde, founder of the Adriana
> Foundation, fled Massachusetts to go out west and seems to still be
> underground, although she was found recently as a real estate agent on
> the west coast of Florida. Please note that my own son Ben kept his
> abilities hidden until April, 1994 (after the witchhunt was over) and
> soon thereafter was able to flee Massachusetts for the safety of the
> Chareidi Community in Israel.
In the religious or spiritual realm, one is free to believe whatever one
wishes. If your religious community accepts you and your son, I think
that's terrific.
Arthur Golden
> I chose to bring this discussion here specifically because usenet is not
> amenable to censorship (self-censorship or otherwise) and because the
> ethical behaviour of those who advocate for autistics is of paramount
> importance to me.
I just reread your original post to this thread "politics and autism"
and I feel it is my ethical duty to bring to your attention the
"unpleasant truth" that I question whether your presentation of the
facts was even-handed. Therefore I have decided to repost my own
comments to this thread and your replies to a new thread with the
subject "ethics and autism." Then, when I have the time, I intend to
post comments on this subject of "ethics and autism."
However, I am not sure if it is ethical for me to publicly mention to
you the details about why I think you are not even-handed. As you
know, I did send you by private email the discussion board messages
about my own interaction with the mutual party involved in your
original post to this thread. I plan to first discuss these specific
issues of ethics by private email. My public comments here on
alt.support.autism will probably be of a more general nature.
Arthur Golden
Stephen Horne
I remember this...
"I publicly state that you are unethical, but it would be unethical of
me to justify that statement in public, so I shall keep the
justification private".
You're pretty prone to that particular bullshit, aren't you, Arthur.
As I recall, I mentioned Mr. Golden just recently on this group. As
they say, speak of the devil. I would just like to publicly appologise
for any role I may have played in causing him to return.
For the record, Arthur Golden, I think you're a completely unethical
piece of shit. But it would be unethical of me to justify that view
here. By means of those two sentences, I have of course communicated
to everyone who reads this that there is a justification, while
denying them the opportunity to check its validity - just like you so
often do. But don't worry - I shall communicate my reasoning to you by
means of your son and his mysterious magic powers that can somehow
only be manifest through your interpretation - preferably in front of
a select group of followers and admirers, of course. So at the very
least you can be sure that your completely objective cult members will
be able to assess the facts properly for themselves, based on your
completely unbiassed report of why I think you're an arsehole.
BTW - have you got around to telling your cult that they should
relinquish all their worldly posessions to you yet? Or at least, you
know, some "expenses" - even politicians get to exploit that con,
after all. Getting undeserved respect and fame is one thing, but cash
has benefits too. I'm sure you - errr, I mean Ben, of course - can
think of a rationalisation.
And don't forget the women. No doubt you would be better able to
interpret the wisdom of the Great and Powerful Ben if you were, ahem,
more "relaxed".