Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
Norma
Sometimes I feel as if they don't care whether or not I call, well
only my mom, but even then, I just get this feeling from them. I guess
it frustrates me because I am trying to communicate differently and it
seems like it doesn't help. In fact I get more response from my
friends and my in laws than I do from my own family. Whereas I call my
relatives and it feels like I'm a bother to them. It doesn't matter
the fact that I've tried my best to ask them about how they are doing
and doing my best to listen. Is it too late to change things, that
they have a certain perception of me that won't budge?
So what do I do now? Give up on them? I guess I envy those who despite
family problems still have some sort of communication where it seems
their family cares for them. I guess I also feel it's rude that nobody
tells me what the heck is wrong, everybody acts like nothing's wrong
in a sense. Whereas I have tried my best to bring up what areas that I
have a problem with, in order to try to help things. Anyways what's
the minimum contact necessary so that nobody would think I'm
intentionally keeping them from their "Grandkids" "nieces and
nephews".
I get frustrated is it only seems that they call when they need
something...
Norma
Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work
he is supposed to be doing at the moment.
Robert Benchley
Virginiaz
was 20 y/o. I think family can be good or bad, and one should not base one's
identity on the way they 'insist upon seeing you,' or one should not needlessly
suffer at their expense, when they behave so badly.
When one has good energy, and it is rebuffed, one should do one's best to find
another outlet or focus, before the energy is needlessly dissipated, or turned
inward in sadness.
There are many deserving people out there in need of companionship and support,
from the elderly, the sick, the impaired, the underpriviledge, etc, who would
more than welcome your good energy.
(reminder to self!)
Subject: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: Norma <som...@nowhereelse.com>
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 9:38 PM
Message-id: <kp70htgk2fvjbf89t...@4ax.com>
Norma
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
+--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----+
+-------------------Oooo---+
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_
Norma
wrote:
>I undertstand. My relatives (not my parents) disowned me for being gay, when I
>was 20 y/o. I think family can be good or bad, and one should not base one's
>identity on the way they 'insist upon seeing you,' or one should not needlessly
>suffer at their expense, when they behave so badly.
It is sad that families cannot accept their members for who they are.
I mean there's a big difference with agreeing with your family members
100% and supporting them. What I mean is that they don't have to
neccesarily agree with how I do things, but they should be supportive,
just like I try my darnest best to be supportive (as long as they
aren't hurting me).
>
>When one has good energy, and it is rebuffed, one should do one's best to find
>another outlet or focus, before the energy is needlessly dissipated, or turned
>inward in sadness.
I don't want to become depressed, but I'm thinking of looking for
other ways to channel this "need" for family acceptance. I don't want
to it erode my self esteem, (this is difficult though) but what can I
do to deal with it?
>There are many deserving people out there in need of companionship and support,
>from the elderly, the sick, the impaired, the underpriviledge, etc, who would
>more than welcome your good energy.
Thanks for the advice, Virginia.
>(reminder to self!)
>
In some ways we all wind up doing this, I have done this in different
areas myself, especially when I'm advising someone to do computer
backups :)
Norma
Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work
he is supposed to be doing at the moment.
Robert Benchley
GOtterBMe
:It doesn't matter
the fact that I've tried my best to ask them about how they are doing
and doing my best to listen. Is it too late to change things, that
they have a certain perception of me that won't budge?"
Norma -- has it occurred to you that it may just be them -- that they don't
relate well to other relatives?
This was a trait in my family. I experienced all that you experienced. My
sister and I finally figured out that it was just in the nature of our parents.
They lived forty miles from their grandchildren and hardly ever saw them. Her
in-laws lived 25 miles from their grandchildren and saw them every weekend.
It wasn't her. It was our parents. That's how they were.
We seem to have inherited it to some extent, possibly just learned family
patterns. Even with IM's etc. we don't talk all that often.
GOtterBMe
"Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: Norma <A
HREF="mailto:som...@nowhereelse.com">som...@nowhereelse.com</A>
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 5:12 PM
Message-id: <45a0htsqqcjfluegj...@4ax.com>
On 26 May 2001 21:57:08 GMT, virg...@aol.commentary (Virginiaz)
wrote:
>I undertstand. My relatives (not my parents) disowned me for being gay, when
I
>was 20 y/o. "
I think I can top that, Virginia, despiccable though it is ... my grandmother
disowned my brother ... for growing a beard.
Really, truly... ELEVEN YEARS LATER the beard was long gone but she still left
him out of her will.
Virginiaz
(did it affect his ability -- later in life -- to form a meaningful
relationship with an electric razor, or was he forever doomed to an
old-fashioned single-blade? *L* therapy might help, if he is still having
problems.)
Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: gott...@aol.com (GOtterBMe)
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 10:20 PM
Message-id: <20010526182055...@ng-ba1.aol.com>
Virginia said:
"Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: Norma <A
HREF="mailto:som...@nowhereelse.com">som...@nowhereelse.com
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 5:12 PM
Message-id: <45a0htsqqcjfluegj...@4ax.com>
On 26 May 2001 21:57:08 GMT, virg...@aol.commentary (Virginiaz)
wrote:
>I undertstand. My relatives (not my parents) disowned me for being gay, when
I
>was 20 y/o. "
I think I can top that, Virginia, despiccable though it is ... my grandmother
disowned my brother ... for growing a beard.
Really, truly... ELEVEN YEARS LATER the beard was long gone but she still left
him out of her will.
Norma
>
>On 26 May 2001 21:57:08 GMT, virg...@aol.commentary (Virginiaz)
>wrote:
>
>>I undertstand. My relatives (not my parents) disowned me for being gay, when
>I
>>was 20 y/o. "
>
>
>
>I think I can top that, Virginia, despiccable though it is ... my grandmother
>disowned my brother ... for growing a beard.
>
>Really, truly... ELEVEN YEARS LATER the beard was long gone but she still left
>him out of her will.
>
Yikes, the things families will do...
Norma
>Norma -- has it occurred to you that it may just be them -- that they don't
>relate well to other relatives?
Perhaps it could be.
>
>This was a trait in my family. I experienced all that you experienced. My
>sister and I finally figured out that it was just in the nature of our parents.
>They lived forty miles from their grandchildren and hardly ever saw them. Her
>in-laws lived 25 miles from their grandchildren and saw them every weekend.
In that case, my in laws live 6 hours away, my mother only lives 30
miles away. Can my mom visit a bit more often? Even as much as my
mother in law has (which isn't often, but more often than my mother
has the potential to visit).
>
>It wasn't her. It was our parents. That's how they were.
Well even considering that, could they be much nicer then when I do
call? Either way they don't want to budge, yet between each other,
they are much nicer...
>
>We seem to have inherited it to some extent, possibly just learned family
>patterns. Even with IM's etc. we don't talk all that often.
>
I don't expect us talking daily, but no rudeness if I call once a week
for a short time. That's all I ask for. Maybe I just was born into the
wrong family.
Virginiaz
them a chance, you should toughen up your skin, but keep at'em.
Meanwhile, while giving your heart-felt attentions to those we already
discussed. :)
*second note to self*
<<I don't expect us talking daily, but no rudeness if I call once a week
for a short time. That's all I ask for. Maybe I just was born into the
wrong family.
Norma>>
Norma
wrote:
>yep, you beat me, there! *L*
>
>(did it affect his ability -- later in life -- to form a meaningful
>relationship with an electric razor, or was he forever doomed to an
>old-fashioned single-blade? *L* therapy might help, if he is still having
>problems.)
Definitely razors over waxing...
Christopher Eliot
You can *never* give up on relatives.
But, you *can* take sabbaticals from them. When I was in college, I think there
were times when I didn't talk to my mom for months at a time. I've ignored
relatives even for years, although I won't say I feel good about that.
It is not entirely your responsibility to keep up communication.
If you can't, don't or forget to call, they can call you.
If neither of you does, they are just as much to blame as you.
So, if you are angry/frustrated/bored or whatever at some of your
relatives, just relax and forget about it. Don't bother to call or
write unless they do.
Don't build up a grudge, just let your anger and anxiety go.
But never say never. You will eventually get back in touch with them,
even if it is not soon.
Good luck!
Also, remember that relatives are always impossible and that any advice you can
get about dealing with relatives is guaranteed to be wrong! :-)
Christopher Eliot
>
> yep, you beat me, there! *L*
I'm glad you can take that in good humor.
I have a cousin who never told her parents she was gay. That doesn't seem
right to me.
Norma
<empire...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Norma,
>
>You can *never* give up on relatives.
>
>But, you *can* take sabbaticals from them. When I was in college, I think there
>were times when I didn't talk to my mom for months at a time. I've ignored
>relatives even for years, although I won't say I feel good about that.
>
>It is not entirely your responsibility to keep up communication.
>If you can't, don't or forget to call, they can call you.
>
>If neither of you does, they are just as much to blame as you.
>
>So, if you are angry/frustrated/bored or whatever at some of your
>relatives, just relax and forget about it. Don't bother to call or
>write unless they do.
>
>Don't build up a grudge, just let your anger and anxiety go.
>
>But never say never. You will eventually get back in touch with them,
>even if it is not soon.
>
>Good luck!
>
>Also, remember that relatives are always impossible and that any advice you can
>get about dealing with relatives is guaranteed to be wrong! :-)
>
>
Actually what you say Chrisopher is right, I should allow myself to
get break from them and not feel guily for it regardless if they try,
because they will try after a certain amount of time. It's tough, I
think the reason I am so upset is because my mom started in on me
putting guilt on me not visiting enough (never mind the fact they
never did the same in return). If she was fair about things and didn't
do things in the same manner she does now, then it wouldn't be so much
of an issue. But the expects me to do things one way and then they can
do things in another. That's what bugs me. So I figure if I try to do
things their way they should try to do things my way. Otherwise there
isn't much of a relationship. Maybe the best thing to do is to calmly
point out inconsistancies the next time I get a guilt trip put on me
by them. I don't know, we will see.
Norma
-- The public school system stripped me of my creativity. As such there will be no witty original sig.
Robert Benchley
Christopher Eliot
>
> On Sun, 27 May 2001 04:13:42 GMT, Christopher Eliot
> <empire...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >Norma,
> >
> >You can *never* give up on relatives.
> >
> >But, you *can* take sabbaticals from them. When I was in college, I think there
> >were times when I didn't talk to my mom for months at a time. I've ignored
> >relatives even for years, although I won't say I feel good about that.
> >
> >It is not entirely your responsibility to keep up communication.
> >If you can't, don't or forget to call, they can call you.
> >
> >If neither of you does, they are just as much to blame as you.
> >
> >So, if you are angry/frustrated/bored or whatever at some of your
> >relatives, just relax and forget about it. Don't bother to call or
> >write unless they do.
> >
> >Don't build up a grudge, just let your anger and anxiety go.
> >
> >But never say never. You will eventually get back in touch with them,
> >even if it is not soon.
> >
> >Good luck!
> >
> >Also, remember that relatives are always impossible and that any advice you can
> >get about dealing with relatives is guaranteed to be wrong! :-)
> >
> >
>
> Actually what you say Chrisopher is right, I should allow myself to
> get break from them and not feel guily for it regardless if they try,
> because they will try after a certain amount of time.
I'm glad you took my comments the right way. Don't feel guilty about it.
> It's tough, I
> think the reason I am so upset is because my mom started in on me
> putting guilt on me not visiting enough (never mind the fact they
> never did the same in return). If she was fair about things and didn't
> do things in the same manner she does now, then it wouldn't be so much
> of an issue. But the expects me to do things one way and then they can
> do things in another. That's what bugs me.
Norma, I thought you had much more wisdom that this! Do you honestly
expect that you (or anyone) can ever expect your mom to stop treating you
as a kid? ROFL, I don't think so. Don't expect (any) mom to be "fair". :-)
You can expect more from any other relative, though, but not your parents, AFIK.
I have to keep a certain distance from my mother, too. I try very hard not
to visit for more than three or four days and I just put up with it.
My mother (and step father) can be totally impossible for longer periods of time.
The guilt trip thing is much harder to deal with. I have not really experienced
that so I don't have much to say about it. I don't know if it is possible
to "preempt" her guilt trip by saying that you "feel guilty about not being
able to visit more often, but I just can't make it this weekend..."
Terra Celeste
had friends with what I consider to be nearly perfect parents and/or
relatives and even in those situations,they've had discord once in awhile. I
like Chris's advice down below. Just take a vacation from them for awhile
and put the onus on them to call or communicate.It does take two sides to
keep up the connections. Forgive them for being human too? I don't mean to
say you're too critical of them-not at all.
I just mean that we as a species have alot of quirks and eccentricities,and
no one has it all figured out as to how to treat family and friends .
My sister took an extreme road with my parents. She has for all purposes
pretty much disowned them. She hangs up on my mom on a regular basis,never
visits,and gives them the cold shoulder at family gatherings. I believe her
choices have taken a toll on her physical as well as emotional health. She
has alot of health problems that are auto-immune based. I think her anger
eats away at her.
My mother in particular is no gem as mothers go,but she means well. I
communicate regularly with her but enjoy living 500 miles away if you know
what I mean!
I wish I had one of those no-fuss families that lived near by and would
baby-sit at a moments notice,but I would'nt even want to do that with my
parents,sadly.
They are capable of caring for my kids,but not without inserting their own
"expert" methods of child-rearing if you get my drift.
Norma <som...@nowhereelse.com> wrote in message
news:lgc0htctqgntt8v23...@4ax.com...
GOtterBMe
HREF="mailto:empire...@mediaone.net">empire...@mediaone.net</A>
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 11:25 PM
Message-id: <3B1081C5...@mediaone.net>
Virginiaz wrote:
>
> yep, you beat me, there! *L*
I'm glad you can take that in good humor.
I have a cousin who never told her parents she was gay. That doesn't seem
right to me."
I think it terribly sad when someone can't share something that goes to the
very core of their being like that. I hope none of us will be such blockheaded
parents if one of our children grows up to be gay???
GOtterBMe
"Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: Norma <A
HREF="mailto:som...@nowhereelse.com">som...@nowhereelse.com</A>
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 5:50 PM
Message-id: <lic0htcl5pc02cv92...@4ax.com>
On 26 May 2001 22:19:23 GMT, gott...@aol.com (GOtterBMe) wrote:
>Norma -- has it occurred to you that it may just be them -- that they don't
>relate well to other relatives?
Perhaps it could be.
>
>This was a trait in my family. I experienced all that you experienced. My
>sister and I finally figured out that it was just in the nature of our
parents.
>They lived forty miles from their grandchildren and hardly ever saw them. Her
>in-laws lived 25 miles from their grandchildren and saw them every weekend.
In that case, my in laws live 6 hours away, my mother only lives 30
miles away. Can my mom visit a bit more often? Even as much as my
mother in law has (which isn't often, but more often than my mother
has the potential to visit)."
Well, see, that's what I meant -- it's not really about physical distance --
it's emotional distance. My nephew and nieces hardly knew their maternal
grandparents.
Room would have been made for my parents of course. The paternals were
gracious, caring people.
GOtterBMe
"But the expects me to do things one way and then they can
do things in another. That's what bugs me. "
Sounds as if she sees this still as a parent/child relationship in some ways
where you have certain "obligations" as the "dutiful child."
Virginiaz
And Chris: it is sad your cousin feels she cannot share, but keep in mind the
kind rejection she fears, and she may have good reasons to cultivate such
guardedness. But over time, perhaps she will feel trustful enough to share
this with them.
As for my experience, this was back in the mid 70s. I did not share this with
my grandmother, she came to visit me in Boston (from the deep south), and read
my personal journal. It was all there. Three months later, I get the LETTER.
Disowned, etc. She was my closest relative.
So, you see, I did not thrust it in their face, it was stolen. Times have
changed, and much progress has been made. But obviously (boyscout boycotts, Dr
Laura, et al) aptly illustrated how much progress is left to be made. One is
wise to be careful, as one's family, job, friends, etc, may be adversely
affected.
But sometimes, people are lucky enough to have wonderfully enlightened,
supportive friends and family (and colleagues).
Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: gott...@aol.com (GOtterBMe)
Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 8:34 PM
Message-id: <20010527163447...@ng-ck1.aol.com>
"Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: Christopher Eliot <A
HREF="mailto:empire...@mediaone.net">empire...@mediaone.net
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 11:25 PM
Message-id: <3B1081C5...@mediaone.net>
Virginiaz wrote:
>
> yep, you beat me, there! *L*
I'm glad you can take that in good humor.
I have a cousin who never told her parents she was gay. That doesn't seem
right to me."
I think it terribly sad when someone can't share something that goes to the
very core of their being like that. I hope none of us will be such blockheaded
parents if one of our children grows up to be gay???
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
The discussion of homosexuality has come up in a conversation or two
around here. I'm not sure if it has more to do with having 3 children
going hormonal on us at once or with the fact that YS's stepmom is a
fundie. :-/
I've told them when asked that gay men like other men, gay women like
other women, and even though it's beyond me why they feel that way,
that's all there is to it.
--
Kitten
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover; I'm a child, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint; I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell, I'm you dream; I'm nothing in between
You know you wouldn't want it any other way
-
- - Meredith Brooks
Virginiaz
postive/tolerant school environment for their peers -- this is an excellent
resource. Well-regarded by teachers.
GLSEN (Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network)
http://www.glsen.org
Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
From: Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <cath...@whitepine.com>
Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 4:58 PM
Message-id: <3B128453...@whitepine.com>
GOtterBMe wrote:
>
> "Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
> From: Christopher Eliot <A
> HREF="mailto:empire...@mediaone.net">empire...@mediaone.net
> Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 11:25 PM
> Message-id: <3B1081C5...@mediaone.net>
>
> Virginiaz wrote:
> >
> > yep, you beat me, there! *L*
>
> I'm glad you can take that in good humor.
>
> I have a cousin who never told her parents she was gay. That doesn't seem
> right to me."
>
> I think it terribly sad when someone can't share something that goes to the
> very core of their being like that. I hope none of us will be such
blockheaded
> parents if one of our children grows up to be gay???
The discussion of homosexuality has come up in a conversation or two
around here. I'm not sure if it has more to do with having 3 children
going hormonal on us at once or with the fact that YS's stepmom is a
fundie. :-/
I've told them when asked that gay men like other men, gay women like
other women, and even though it's beyond me why they feel that way,
that's all there is to it.
Norma
<cl...@21stcentury.net> wrote:
>Norma,I think all relatives are difficult at times. I wish I knew why. I've
>had friends with what I consider to be nearly perfect parents and/or
>relatives and even in those situations,they've had discord once in awhile. I
>like Chris's advice down below. Just take a vacation from them for awhile
>and put the onus on them to call or communicate.It does take two sides to
>keep up the connections. Forgive them for being human too? I don't mean to
>say you're too critical of them-not at all.
>I just mean that we as a species have alot of quirks and eccentricities,and
>no one has it all figured out as to how to treat family and friends .
I think it would be much easier to forgive their quirks if they
forgave mine. I have, for a while now, looked the other way IRT their
quirks. I think I'm getting tired of giving and not receiving, just
because they think it's all my fault.
>
> My sister took an extreme road with my parents. She has for all purposes
>pretty much disowned them. She hangs up on my mom on a regular basis,never
>visits,and gives them the cold shoulder at family gatherings. I believe her
>choices have taken a toll on her physical as well as emotional health. She
>has alot of health problems that are auto-immune based. I think her anger
>eats away at her.
>My mother in particular is no gem as mothers go,but she means well. I
>communicate regularly with her but enjoy living 500 miles away if you know
>what I mean!
>I wish I had one of those no-fuss families that lived near by and would
>baby-sit at a moments notice,but I would'nt even want to do that with my
>parents,sadly.
>They are capable of caring for my kids,but not without inserting their own
>"expert" methods of child-rearing if you get my drift.
I don't want to disown them. I think that would be wrong and not teach
them anything. But I would like to know how to get to the point that I
can be sane in all of this, and get the point across that they problem
is now them.
So far with what I've tried it hasn't done the job.
Maybe nothing will work. I think taking a break seems sane.
Norma
wrote:
>Your generosity may exceed their abilities. Perhaps if you wish to keep giving
>them a chance, you should toughen up your skin, but keep at'em.
>
>Meanwhile, while giving your heart-felt attentions to those we already
>discussed. :)
>
A break right now should be helpful. Hopefully I can find a good
method to give them a chance later. As for toughing up my skin, when
it comes to them I don't know how. It's easy to do that with people
who aren't my family.
Norma
<empire...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>
>I'm glad you took my comments the right way. Don't feel guilty about it.
>
>> It's tough, I
>> think the reason I am so upset is because my mom started in on me
>> putting guilt on me not visiting enough (never mind the fact they
>> never did the same in return). If she was fair about things and didn't
>> do things in the same manner she does now, then it wouldn't be so much
>> of an issue. But the expects me to do things one way and then they can
>> do things in another. That's what bugs me.
>
>Norma, I thought you had much more wisdom that this! Do you honestly
>expect that you (or anyone) can ever expect your mom to stop treating you
>as a kid? ROFL, I don't think so. Don't expect (any) mom to be "fair". :-)
Well it depends on the definition of kid. Do the parents still call
their grown kids "kids"? If it was just this part alone, and maybe a
few other things, then it would not be a problem. My inlaws call my
hubby and I kids. I don't mind. They treat us like adults with respect
in most areas. But when a parent thinks you should do everything their
way, or that parent's feelings are hurt, they are treating you like a
kid, because they don't expect you to have anybody else's views but
theirs. And then since all the other kids live at home, they all
support my mom's views. They don't see how blind they are. And they
won't learn till they live on their own. I have hopes for my sister
yet, my brother, I don't know. He's still living at home in his late
20's. Doesn't have an ounce of responsiblity except his high paying
job. Mom cooks and cleans for him. You bet he's gonna go along with
most everything my mom says. My sister, well she's not experienced
enough to understand what I know. See they use my faults against me
and somehow think it invalidates my positive aspects.
>
>You can expect more from any other relative, though, but not your parents, AFIK.
>
>I have to keep a certain distance from my mother, too. I try very hard not
>to visit for more than three or four days and I just put up with it.
>My mother (and step father) can be totally impossible for longer periods of time.
I think if it was just my step father and mom alone, it would be
easier. But in our culture, you don't see that much... Kids are
expected to live with parents until marriage, and then even then, some
kids still live at home. It's sad. I'm not saying though all Hispanic
families are this way, but many still are. I guess I'm amazed that
given the same situation, my cousins are more mature (they live at
home). But I guess we got the bad genes of the family. I don't know. I
have learned more good advice from my aunt than my mother.
>
>The guilt trip thing is much harder to deal with. I have not really experienced
>that so I don't have much to say about it. I don't know if it is possible
>to "preempt" her guilt trip by saying that you "feel guilty about not being
>able to visit more often, but I just can't make it this weekend..."
I wonder if I should be straight out with her. Passive aggressiveness
on all ends is actually IMO what is causing the problem.
Norma
Yes, definitely that's it.
Christopher Eliot
Your family sounds different than mine. I get frustrated being with my
family for too long. They try to run my life when I am around them,
but there is also an understanding that I won't let them get away with it.
GOtterBMe
Message-id: <i3g5htce2hjp226hc...@4ax.com>
On 26 May 2001 22:54:50 GMT, virg...@aol.commentary (Virginiaz)
wrote:
>Your generosity may exceed their abilities. Perhaps if you wish to keep
giving
>them a chance, you should toughen up your skin, but keep at'em.
>
>Meanwhile, while giving your heart-felt attentions to those we already
>discussed. :)
>
A break right now should be helpful. Hopefully I can find a good
method to give them a chance later. As for toughing up my skin, when
it comes to them I don't know how. It's easy to do that with people
who aren't my family.
Norma"
Norma, when I was about 40, I flew "home" to see my Mom and Dad. My brother
was living there at the time, helping my mom, who used a wheelchair and walker,
take care of my dad, who was recovering from cancer surgery.
My mom said she would "send" my brother to pick me up at the airport, but I
knew the airport and my brother, and knew it to be a bad plan. I said, no, I'll
take a taxi (it wasn't that far). She insisted. I insisted.
Well, knowing she wouldn't give, I waited for my brother for 45 minutes. Then I
called the house to tell Mom we hadn't connected.
Without so much as a "hi," she reamed me out for leaving the curb, where he
could see me, to go to a phone.
I told her that if this was how the trip was going to be, I would stay at the
airport and take the next flight home, and she backed down. Later I expressed
surprise that a phone call was now 35 cents in her town, as it was still 25
cents where I lived, and she said something sneering about "everything is
always better where I live now."
Well, I never said or implied any such thing, so I told her then that every
time she lashed out at me, I was going to leave the room, and that if other
people were there (neighbors, etc.) I would do it gracefully, but she would
know the reason.
I had to do it three times in the first two days, but never again after that.
But this was not a surprise to me. The day before my wedding (I was 32, mind
you, and had had a job where I drove 3,000 miles a month -- I wasn't exactly a
new driver) -- I was driving her some place. She started ragging me
RIDICULOUSLY on my driving. Finally I offered to pull over (we were on a
highway) and let her out, and she could hitchhike -- surely she would find a
driver more suited to her liking.
Incredibly, she apologized and admitted that she was acting like that because
*she* was anxious about driving. She settled down.
I just had to stand up to her periodically.
GOtterBMe
"I think it would be much easier to forgive their quirks if they
forgave mine."
Norma, this will not change so long as the relative sees it as his or her role
to point your flaws out to you.
My mother learned to mother this way from her mother, and ultimately I really
do blame my grandmother. My mother had a very hard life. She undoubtedly had
ADHD (inattentive), and her mother was completely unforgiving. Since my mother
was an only child, she got the brunt of all of my grandmother's tendency to
judge (this is the same one who permanently disowned my brother for growing a
beard).
Nevertheless, I did stand up to her. When she related to me, I left the room.
Only she knew why for sure, but I'm sure she worried about someone else
figuring it out.
My sister learned the habit, and I finally confronted her. She was able to see
that she was doing this, and made great efforts to stop, and we get along much
better now.
No one can maintain that role with you -- not even a parent -- if you have a
good plan to derail that particular train.
You may need the help of another person to work the plan out, though.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
>
> If you'ld like them to know more -- and enable them to contribute to a
> postive/tolerant school environment for their peers -- this is an excellent
> resource. Well-regarded by teachers.
>
> GLSEN (Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network)
> http://www.glsen.org
>
Thanks. I'll look into it once we've completely gotten the new house
settled.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
>
> On Mon, 28 May 2001 16:58:32 GMT, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
> <cath...@whitepine.com> wrote:
>
> >GOtterBMe wrote:
> >>
> >> "Subject: Re: Is there a time when you give up on your relatives?
> >> From: Christopher Eliot <A
> >> HREF="mailto:empire...@mediaone.net">empire...@mediaone.net</A>
> >> Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 11:25 PM
> >> Message-id: <3B1081C5...@mediaone.net>
> >>
> >> Virginiaz wrote:
> >> >
> >> > yep, you beat me, there! *L*
> >>
> >> I'm glad you can take that in good humor.
> >>
> >> I have a cousin who never told her parents she was gay. That doesn't seem
> >> right to me."
> >>
> >> I think it terribly sad when someone can't share something that goes to the
> >> very core of their being like that. I hope none of us will be such blockheaded
> >> parents if one of our children grows up to be gay???
> >
> >
> >The discussion of homosexuality has come up in a conversation or two
> >around here. I'm not sure if it has more to do with having 3 children
> >going hormonal on us at once or with the fact that YS's stepmom is a
> >fundie. :-/
> >
> >I've told them when asked that gay men like other men, gay women like
> >other women, and even though it's beyond me why they feel that way,
> >that's all there is to it.
>
> she made it clear *she* didn't think that's all there was to it.
AFAICT, that's all there is to it emotionally and mentally. It's not
much different than the differences between my attraction to a ex-Marine
Wookie vs another woman's preference for clean-shaven men with short
hair and absolutely no hair on their chests. Different people are
attracted to different things.
Physically, yeah, there's a bit of difference. But it still goes back
to what it is to which one is attracted.
Emma Anne
> I told her then that every
> time she lashed out at me, I was going to leave the room, and that if other
> people were there (neighbors, etc.) I would do it gracefully, but she would
> know the reason.
>
> I had to do it three times in the first two days, but never again after that.
Wow, Otter. Great story.
Emma Anne
> I don't want to disown them. I think that would be wrong and not teach
> them anything. But I would like to know how to get to the point that I
> can be sane in all of this, and get the point across that they problem
> is now them.
>
> So far with what I've tried it hasn't done the job.
> Maybe nothing will work. I think taking a break seems sane.
I haven't read the whole thread (sorry!) so maybe this came up already,
but I heartily recommend The Dance of Anger for dealing with impossible
relatives.
Norma
I guess I will have to be an adult and deal with the consequences. At
first I didn't want my husband involved in helping me work this out. I
didn't want them to be upset with him (I thought). But if he's willing
to help me out, I'll risk any consenquences, since I feel like I need
help at this moment. The sooner I change things the better off things
will be.
Thanks for posting your experiences. They have been helpful, and that
goes for everybody else who has posted. It has been helpful.
Norma
wrote:
What is "The Dance of Anger"?
Norma
I hope I get the bravery soon enough for this. It's been a while. At
first I thought I would try to change things on my end that I thought
would be causing problems. Well, I found out it doesn't work. So I'll
just have to stick to Plan B.
Norma
<empire...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Norma,
>
>Your family sounds different than mine. I get frustrated being with my
>family for too long. They try to run my life when I am around them,
>but there is also an understanding that I won't let them get away with it.
I guess the reason I get so upset with not being able to be around
them, is that I have this thing about "family belonging". Even though
they drive me crazy, I still feel like I should be there. It makes no
sense to me. I don't let them get away with stuff, but they always try
to make me feel guilty about everything. I am trying to learn how to
ignore the guilt. It's not easy, especially if you are the type of
person that leans towards having a guilty conscience by nature. I
guess it didn't help having a bad memory of events and having people
tell me constantly I did this and that, and I constantly apologized,
not even knowing why [while growing up]. *Sigh*
Emma Anne
> On Tue, 29 May 2001 10:46:35 -0600, mb...@earthlink.net (Emma Anne)
> wrote:
>
> >Norma <som...@nowhereelse.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't want to disown them. I think that would be wrong and not teach
> >> them anything. But I would like to know how to get to the point that I
> >> can be sane in all of this, and get the point across that they problem
> >> is now them.
> >>
> >> So far with what I've tried it hasn't done the job.
> >> Maybe nothing will work. I think taking a break seems sane.
> >
> >I haven't read the whole thread (sorry!) so maybe this came up already,
> >but I heartily recommend The Dance of Anger for dealing with impossible
> >relatives.
>
> What is "The Dance of Anger"?
>
It's a wonderful book by Harriet Lerner. Short description:
People get into patterns in their relationships - like a dance. If one
person changes the steps, the dance has to change. But sometimes, what
people do *seems* like changing the steps, but actually works to
maintain the system. E.g. - if you blow up at your spouse every once in
a while about something, but the something never changes, then your
blowing up is not taking a stand, but rather maintaining the status quo.
It releases tension so you both can go on as before. Real change (she
says) isn't reactive anger, but rather calm setting and enforcing of
limits.
She also describes what she calls the overfunctioning/underfunctioning
dance. This is where one person acts incompetant, and the other steps
up to fill the gap, so the first person gets more incompetant, and
around and around. One common example of this is where one parent
(usually mom) worries about the child. The other spouse thinks she is
overreacting, and worries less. She worries more. He worries less.
Until she is a stress monster, and he doesn't worry about stuff he
*should* worry about. Another common example is when one child is
designated "the problem" and another child overfunctions in response.
She also talks a lot about relationship triangles. Like where mom and
big sister spend a lot of time and energy worrying together about little
sister. So neaither one is having a separate honest relationship with
the "problem" sister. They have a relationship with each other at her
expense.
GOtterBMe
"I guess I will have to be an adult and deal with the consequences. At
first I didn't want my husband involved in helping me work this out. I
didn't want them to be upset with him (I thought). "
Personally I think it would be a mistake not to involve your husband. If he
does not stand squarely with you, it may look as if he disagrees with you or
even disaproves of your attempts to shift these behavioral patterns. It is
possible family members will try to suck him in, and he might not even realize
it.
You're a team. Keep him with you. :)
I am so glad my family stories helped you out. Don't hesitate to work this out
with someone else if you feel the need.