WARNING WARNING WARNING
Julia
vaccinations given nation-wide. Thimerosal is a preservative that contains
Mercury, and it has been proven to cause neuro dysfunction, including ADD,
autism, and more. http://66.175.11.113
9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals
Mark D. Morin
the proof is far from conclusive
--
====================================================
"How do you do Nothing?" asked Pooh. "Well, it's when people call out
at you just as you're going off to do it, `What are you going to do,
Christopher Robin?' and you say, `Oh, nothing' and then you go and do
it. It means just going along, listening to all the things you can't
hear, and not bothering."
http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
remove peterhood69 for mail
SumBuny
"Mark D. Morin" <mdm...@PETERHOOD69gwi.net> wrote in message
news:3D1BA9E0...@gwi.net...
> Julia wrote:
> >
> > I was shocked to learn my daughter's ADD is related to the very same
> > vaccinations given nation-wide. Thimerosal is a preservative that
contains
> > Mercury, and it has been proven to cause neuro dysfunction, including
ADD,
> > autism, and more. http://66.175.11.113
>
> the proof is far from conclusive
I had heard this about autism, but not about ADHD (both sons and I are ADHD,
younger son is also autistic-aspergers syndrome).
While the proof is still far from conclusive, it *is* being question by
those in Congress...if you are registered at delphi forums, the high
functioning autistic children forum has a post with congressional
transcripts of such a "discussion"
http://forums.about.com/n/main.asp?webtag=hfasd&msg=1766.8&find=Search
One question that kept coming up was this: Thimerisol is being excluded from
all newly made vaccines as a "precautionary measure", yet current stock
(with thimerisol) is being allowed to remain in use...so, why the
"precautions" if it is safe enough to continue use of current stock? Also,
why is 2 more lots being allowed out if such "precautions" are being
taken?.....Burton continually asked for clarification on this apparent
paradox, but got no direct answers....
FWIW, I am unsure myself-both boys had "all their shots", yet one is mildly
ADHD, and one is ADHD and autistic...but even so, when the autistic son was
required to receive his series of HiB shots, I did request (and got)
thimerisol-free versions.
For those of you who do not wish to register (there is a free level at
delphi), I am cutting and pasting the transcript--it is somewhat long...
--
Buny
-----" Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to
be normal." ~ Albert Camus
----- One Size does NOT fit all; Heck, one size don't even fit MOST!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Dr. Colleen Boyle:
I think we've made a considerable progress in reducing the thimerosal
content in vaccines.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
No, so you've asked that thimerosal be reduced in vaccines, have you not?
Dr. Owen Rennert:
I think the answer is that this was done as a precautionary measure.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Why?
Uknnown Speaker:
Because it was feasible to do, and there are sources of exposure to Mercury
that we cannot control, such as that from food. And so --
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
I'm talking about the vaccine. Why is it that you have started at our health
agencies to reduce the amount of thimerosal in vaccines? As a precautionary
measure?
Uknnown Speaker:
As a precautionary measure.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
As a precautionary measure. That would lead one to believe that you're not
really sure whether or not thimerosal causes some problems. Otherwise why
wouldn't you just leave it in there and say, hey, we've run all these tests,
there's no causal link whatsoever.
Uknnown Speaker:
There is a theoretical risk.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Okay. So there is a theoretical risk. Then why have we not recalled the
vaccines that have thihmerosal in them right now while you're testing this?
If there's any question whatsoever about what we're putting into our kids
arms, and their bodies, and if you're reducing thimerosal because you think
there may be a causal link as a precautionary measure, why don't you recall
the thimerosal that is in doctor's offices that are being injected into kids
as we speak until you are sure? Because obviously you are not sure or you
wouldn't be taking it out in anyway. Why don't you recall it?
Uknnown Speaker:
I can give you my comments, the FDA may wish to weigh in on this issue of
recall. But as succinctly as I can put it, Mr. Chairman, being safe means
being safe from disease as well (technical difficulty).
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Let me ask you this question then. Can you create a measles vaccine, and do
we have a measles vaccine, does it not have thimerosal in it?
Uknnown Speaker:
Yes, that is correct.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Can we create a mumps vaccine that does not have thimerosal in it?
Uknnown Speaker:
That is correct.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Then why are you putting thimerosal in it?
Uknnown Speaker:
At the present time, as Dr. Midthun and Dr. Boyle mentioned, we have a made
very good progress. And I can say to you that we are not putting in
thimerosal any longer in the vaccines that are being produced.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
So, if you are not, if you're not as a precautionary measure, then why are
you leaving vaccines on doctor's shelves and in drugstores around this
country that are being used in facilities where they supply them, are being
used if you are not putting them in new vaccines? If you have, as a
precautionary measure, why don't you recall the supply you have out there
until you are absolutely sure beyond any doubt that thimerosal has a causal
link to autism? Why don't you recall it? Dr. Midthun.
Dr. Karen Midthun:
(indiscernible) public health service act, in order to make a mandatory
recall of vaccine, there has to be an imminent and substantial hazard to the
public health. And as the weight of the evidence does not support a causal
link between thimerosal --
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Then why are you taking it out of the new ones?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
As Dr. Bernier said, it is as a precautionary measure. It's recognized that
mercury, in large doses, is toxic. And any way we have of reducing the
exposure to mercury over which we have control is something that is
desirable to do.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Let me tell you, my grandson was very healthy, and very normal, and spoke,
and ran around like every other child. He got (technical difficulty) the
allowable amount of mercury through thimerosal in one day, and 10 days later
we lost him. We're trying to get him back. Now there's a lot of parents out
there that are getting all these shots when their children's immune systems
are depressed, they've got colds and they're getting these shots with
several of them at a time with thimerosal in them. And as a precautionary
measure, if you think there may be a causal link, don't you have any
latitude whatsoever to recall those and say, we are not going to destroy
this, but we are going to hold these supplies in advance until we know for
sure, until all the tests have been done?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Not under the public health service act, that is not what would allow us to
make a mandatory recall.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
But you are taking thimerosal out of vaccines as a precautionary measure?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That is correct.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
How long are these studies going to take, Dr. Rennert?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
We hope to have answers of various phases within the next two to three
years.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Do you know how many kids are going to be vaccinated today? Do you know that
in California there used to be one child every six hours was becoming
autistic? It is now one every three hours. In the United States 1 out of 400
to 500 kids are autistic, and in some parts of the country that is under
200, and that boys have a four times more prevalence of getting autism than
girls. So if you go to Oregon, 1 out of 190 kids are autistic, that means 1
out of 50 boys being born are going to be autistic. And you are telling me
these studies are going to take two to three years, and at the same time the
studies are going to take two to three years you are going to keep mercury
in vaccines, and you just saw from that Calgary, Canada study what mercury
does to brain cells? I mean, come on. If there is any doubt whatsoever, and
you say it's a precautionary measure you are taking, then why in the heck
don't you get that stuff off the market until you've tested it thoroughly?
And if it is going to take three years, put it someplace for three years in
a storage box. And if the tests don't prove out, you've still got it. And
the pharmaceutical companies can still get their money. Now, on these tests
that you are doing, you said you are testing the blood for mercury. Are you
testing hair and urine samples?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
Yes. In the studies that were done by Navy and the University of Rochester,
there are samples that have been obtained for studies of hair and urine
concentrations as well.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Have you had any results from that yet?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
No, sir. The study, as far as I know, has just been completed and the
analysis is occurring. I don't have the data.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
How long will it take to get that analysis?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
I would imagine -- to be honest, sir, I don't know. I don't think it will be
long, but I will attempt to find out and give you that answer.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
We would like to have copies of the analysis as quickly as you get them. We
would like to have any records you have whatsoever about the analyzing of
blood, hair, urine, whatever it is regarding mercury and thimerosal in these
kids. You know, you were talking about how vaccines have reduced measles,
mumps, rubella, diphtheria, all these other things and that is great. And we
really appreciate what vaccines and pharmaceutical companies have done for
this country. Because they have saved a lot of lives. And what you have done
has been very laudable. But when you have a child who is autistic, from the
time he becomes autistic until he dies, they estimate that the cost to our
society is $5 million for each child. Now, if we have 1 in 400, and the
cases are rising at a very rapid rate, do you have any idea what that is
going to do to our economy? Not now, but 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now. And
so, every precaution that should be taken, must be taken, and must be taken
now, because this is not only a health issue, it's an economic issue that is
not going to go away. I mean we are talking about trillions and trillions of
dollars if we don't find an answer. And if you have got substances,
aluminum, formaldehyde, mercury, in these vaccines, and you have this huge
rise and you are not absolutely sure that mercury is not causing it, you
ought to get it out of there. You ought to recall this stuff, because a
doctor just said. Dr. Bernier just said that they are producing and can
produce vaccines without mercury in them, without thimerosal. Now, granted,
you might not be ablt to put three or four different vaccines in one vial,
because an I understand it you put the mercury in there to keep everything
pure so that they can be used and it won't be tainted. But if you can go to
single vials with single vaccines, sure the parents would have to have more
shots, but if it is going to be safer then why not do it? And why wait three
years for studies? If you think that there may, even the most remote
possibility be a causal link. And if you look at some of these studies like
we've seen, and I am not a scientist, I am not a doctor. I am just a
grandfather who has an autistic kid, and I didn't even know what autism was
until a couple years ago. But when you see the huge number of people that
are contacting us through e-mail and through conferences, there is one going
on right here, you have got to take the proper precautions. You can't say,
let's wait three years and let this go on. So, as I said earlier, and I am
going to yield to my colleagues here, as I said earlier, we have 113 members
in the autism caucus. They will be supplied with every bit of information we
get, not only from you folks, but from Calgary, Canada and around the world
and from the experts we have here. And I will be taking special orders on
the floor of the House. I will be going down there on a regular basis,
reading into the record and talking to the American people about the
problems that we have. And so, the pressure that you are feeling if any now,
I don't know if you are or not, but the pressure you are feeling right now
is going to be magnified as many times as I can make it until our health
agencies either come to some conclusion that's scientifically provable, or
they get that stuff out of there, in particular thimerosal. And I don't know
why if you are coming up with vaccines that don't have these toxic
substances in them as I believe they are, I don't understand why you don't
recall that stuff, get it off the market -- and FDA, can you do a voluntary
recall for manufacturers the same as the rotavirus recall?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That was not a voluntary recall. The manufacturer, on their own initiative,
withdrew their product from the market.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Can you contact the people that manufacture thimerosal? And I know who it
is. Can you ask them to recall it temporarily?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That would be something that would be voluntary on their basis.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
You can't write them a letter and say that because of the concern of
thousands and thousands of parents, and because we are in the process of
doing research on this, we think it would be prudent to recall thimerosal
products until we run all of our tests, which may take as much as three
years?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I am sure that the companies are well aware also of these concerns over
autism.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
But you guys can't even write them a letter?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
It is their choice to make a voluntary recall and they know that they have
that choice, sir.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
So you are not going to do anything?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Under the PHS Act we can make a mandatory recall for the reasons that I
indicated, and the Company, of course on its own volition can do anything it
would like in terms of making the product available or deciding not to
distribute it any longer.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
I will yield to my colleagues in one second. I found out yesterday that
there is a lawsuit pending, I believe in Mississippi, regarding mercury
toxicity and how it has affected children. And if that lawsuit is successful
by the people who are bringing the suit, it will probably involve a great
deal of money to the pharmaceutical company that produces this product, and
other pharmaceutical companies that use it in their vaccines. And I wonder,
I just wonder if perhaps one of the reasons why FDA is not pounding these
pharmaceutical companies to get this off of the market, especially when you
look at this Calgary study about mercury and the toxicity of it, if maybe
there is not pressure being exerted by pharmaceutical companies on our
health agencies because they are afraid of what might happen in the lawsuit
if they do withdraw it from the market. Is there any validity to that kind
of thinking?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I really couldn't say. I do not know, sir.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Okay. Mr. Gilman.
Rep. Gilman:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for raising these issues.
Permit me to request that my opening statement be made a part of the record.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Without objection.
Rep. Gilman:
I do have several questions. I think what the Chairman, Chairman Burton is
raising I think is quite pertinent. And I am surprised to hear, Dr. Midthun,
that you are reluctant to issue any letter to the manufacturers if there is
some concern. You say there is some mandate in the legislation that permits
you to make some of these corrections?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Under the PHS Act, the FDA can make a mandatory recall if there is an
imminent or substantial hazard to the public health. And as I noted before
the preponderance of the evidence does not suggest there is a causal
relationship between thimerosal containing vaccines and autism. Thus, there
is no substantial imminent hazard that would authorize us to make a
mandatory recall, sir.
Rep. Gilman:
And yet, you are making a request that thimerosal not be included in the
future production of vaccines because of some concern, is that correct?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
As Dr. Bernier noted, wherever it is possible to reduce exposure to mercury,
that is a goal we would like to achieve because there are many aspects of
exposure that we don't have control over, for example environmental, food
intake, and thus it is considered a precautionary (technical difficulty)
measure. We can move from multidose vials that require a preservative to
single does vials, and that is what we have been doing, and actually have
made a substantial achievement toward reaching. As I noted before, currently
all vaccines being manufactured for pediatric use under the routine
childhood immunization schedule either contain no thimerosal or only trace
amounts.
Rep. Gilman:
And that is based on your recommendations?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That is based on working collaboratively together with the other public
health service agencies and also the manufacturers that it was agreed that
this would be an achievable goal and it would be good to reduce the exposure
to mercury whenever possible.
Rep. Gilman:
So there is a consensus in the thinking in the medical world that it would
be preferable to eliminate that possibility in treating -- in providing
vaccines for children? Is that correct?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
It is a toxin and thus it is good to be able to reduce exposure, you can
never eliminate exposure, but it is good where you can to be able to reduce
it.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
(multiple speakers) Would the gentleman yield? Let me just ask is mercury a
cumulative thing in the body?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I am not a toxicologist.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
We had one yesterday, and the toxicologist, Mr. Gilman, said that if you get
a shot with mercury in it and then you get another one and another one,
there is a cumulative effect. And our children are getting 26 shots by the
time they go to school. And I might add, did you get a flu shot?
Rep. Gilman:
Yes I did.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
You got thimerosal. You've got mercury in your body from that shot. And Dr.
Isold (phonetic), our admiral, I called him about it and he didn't even know
it was in there.
Rep. Gilman:
That raises another good question. You have taken some precautionary
measures. What have you done with the public so that they are aware of these
problems? What is your educational process -- what have you done in the
educational process to the consuming public with regard to these concerns
that you have in the medical community?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Our labeling for our products indicates what is in the product and in the
case where there is a preservative it is so stated.
Rep. Gilman:
I am not asking just labeling. I am asking have you undertaken any
educational initiatives to the consuming public so they would be aware of
these problems?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
We believe that the vaccines are safe and effective including those vaccines
that were licensed with thimerosal as a preservative, sir.
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Mr. Gilman, if I might add something, because we've discussed this at CDC in
anticipation that we might have this question. And I think one of the things
that CDC has done, at least as we generally try to work with the provider
community to try to provide information about these matters. And so in the
last 22 months, during the time when this episode has been ongoing, there
have been repeated publications, for example, in the morbidity and mortality
weekly report at CDC, there have been joint statements between the
government agencies and the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American
Academy of Family Physicians. So we have worked to put information in the
hands of the providers so that they could address the concerns of the
parents. Also, we have had on our website information about these matters.
We have a hot line where parents can obtain information. So, I wouldn't want
to leave the impression that we haven't been proactive, if you will, about
putting information out there. Because I think we have been.
Rep. Gilman:
You're saying you are putting it in the hands of the providers. But what
about the consuming public? What are you doing -- you are a government
agency, what are you doing about educating the public about these dangers?
What has been done by your agency or any of the panelists who are here
representing our government agencies? What has been done to make the
consuming public aware of these mercury problems?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Like I said, at least speaking for CDC, traditionally we make, we work
through the providers to address the concerns of the parents.
Rep. Gilman:
You don't go beyond the provider? If the provider fails to make the
information available, are you satisfied?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Well, we have also the vaccine information statements that parents are given
prior to vaccination. And that is one direct connection we have with the
parents at the time of vaccination.
Rep. Gilman:
Are these statements that your agency makes for the parents?
Dr. Roger Bernier
Are they what, sir?
Rep. Gilman:
Are these statements that you make available to the parents?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Yes.
Rep. Gilman:
How is that distributed?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
These are widely available, required by law to be made available, (technical
difficulty) children are immunized before every immunization vaccine --
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
If the gentleman would yield. Let me just and then we'll get to Dr. Weldon.
Mr. Gilman, do you ever use nasal spray?
Rep. Gilman:
No.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Does your wife or any of your friends ever use nasal sprays?
Rep. Gilman:
My wife does.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Do you know that most nasal sprays have thimerosal in them?
Rep. Gilman:
I didn't know that.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Yeah. There's mercury in a great many product that we use as adults. And
there is a tremendous rise in the number of cases of Alzheimer's. And
mercury has a debilitating impact on the brain, as you saw, you probably
didn't see it in that Calgary study. And so it is not only the children that
are being affected by this, in my opinion, and I am not a scientist, it is
all of us. Because we are getting mercury through the environment, but we
are getting them in nasal sprays -- and health agencies, not too long ago,
took mercury out of all topical dressings because they said it would leach
into the skin and cause problems. And yet it is in nasal sprays, it is in a
lot of products we use (technical difficulty)
Rep. Gilman:
Mr. Chairman, if I might reclaim my time. It would seem to me there is a
responsibility by our agencies, whether it be NIH, whether it be CDC,
whatever agency is involved in regulating our vaccines, that we make more
information available to the public of the dangers of mercury. And make it
available, not only just to a potential user of the vaccine, but to the
entire public. So I'm urging those panelists who are here today to address
that problem, since it is a problem that can affect millions and millions of
our population. Just one other question, Mr. Chairman. Parents are becoming
concerned about the vaccines that are already on the market that have not
been recalled. But many are unaware of what is being done (technical
difficulty) preventative actions are your concerns because you have directed
the manufacturers to take some steps to remove this product. But what have
you done with the product that is still on the shelves around the country?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
It remains on the shelves, sir.
Rep. Gilman:
And could be used.
Dr. Karen Midthun:
And could be used, that is correct.
Rep. Gilman:
Shouldn't you have some responsibility to remove that if you are concerned
about its use?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Again, as I mentioned, there are certain conditions that allow us to make a
mandatory recall, and that is not one of them. You have to have an imminent
or substantial hazard to the public health -- (multiple speakers)
Rep. Gilman:
Are you concerned that if some of these products are used they could cause
some problems in the health of young people?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
The evidence does not show that there is a causal relationship between
thimerosal as used in vaccines (technical difficulty).
Rep. Gilman:
And yet you recommended that -- (technical difficulty)
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That's correct, because if we can decrease exposure to mercury in ways that
are available to us --
Rep. Gilman:
But if you are concerned about the increase in exposure, then why not take
these products and take them off the shelf, prevent their distribution if
you really are sincerely concerned about the use of these products? It would
seem to me there is an absence of responsibility here by your agencies.
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Well, we have to follow the regulations as they are written, sir.
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Mr. Gilman, could I add -- I want to, I think, try to correct an impression
that I think is being generated here. And that is that if the vaccine is not
being recalled, then nothing is happening. And I think nothing could be
further from the truth. Please allow me to just take a minute to explain
what has changed between (technical difficulty) and I think the impression
is getting, well, if we don't accomplish a recall, then somehow this problem
is not being addressed. And I think there are two or three things I'd like
to point out.
Rep. Gilman:
Doctor, if I might interrupt. When you have faulty tires on vehicles, we
demand that theY be recalled. If we have a medication that is on the shelf
that could create some problem, it would seem to me there is enough
evidence, even though it is not fully explored, that there is enough
evidence available that these products should not be allowed to go out to
the consuming public.
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Mr. Gilman, we have no faulty vaccines on the shelves.
Rep. Gilman:
You already testified before us, at least Dr. Midthune has testified that as
a preventive measure you are recommending to the producer not to use this
product. It would seem to me that that is enough evidence to take the rest
of the product off the shelf.
Dr. Karen Midthun:
We have not recommended that a product not be used. We have worked with
manufactures to reduce the use of thimerosal as a preservative in vaccines.
Rep. Gilman:
And you have done that because you have concern about the future health of
young people, isn't that correct?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
We have concerns about overall exposure to mercury from all sources in the
environment, and this happens to be a source we can control by switching to
single dose vials in large part.
Rep. Gilman:
And these other products that are still on the shelf could contribute to
their health -- to their poor state of health, is that right?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
We do not believe the products out there -- we believe that they are safe
products, sir.
Rep. Gilman:
No further questions.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Dr. Weldon.
Rep. Weldon:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank all the witnesses for testifying. I
certainly thank your efforts to try to answer and address the issues and
concerns we have. Dr. Rennert, you testified, I believe, that the total
spending at NIH will be $52 million on autism related research?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
I believe that's right.
Rep. Weldon:
Correct me if I'm wrong, that is including a lot of autism related research,
but the actual figure on autism specific research is smaller than that, is
that correct?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
I can't tell you that for sure. I will tell you that the list we submitted
is correct. We will go back and review and provide you with the information.
Rep. Weldon:
I would like you to personally provide that to me because I have had people
come to me and say the net was cast pretty wide to come up with a figure
that high, and that the figure for autism specific research is actually
about a third or less of that. And the reason I bring that up is, I had my
staff pull a congressional research study on AIDS. And the figures that were
provided to me from CRS is that there are 300,000 Americans currently
suffering with AIDS, and 115,000 living with HIV. Now I realize some people
estimate that those figures are quite a bit higher, and that there is a
substantial cohort in the population who have exposure to HIV, they are
carrying HIV and they don't know it. But if we use those figures, and those
figures have appeared in the media, that is about 415,000 people. The
federal expenditures on research and treatment and the various (technical
difficulty) billion dollars. Now if we just look at the research number, I
have a figure of 3.1 billion in the year 2000. I could not get the 2001
figure. Now, I am told we have about a similar number of kids with autism.
That is also very debatable. If you look at autism spectrum disorder, you
get a much larger number. When I do the math, it comes out to, for research,
about $7,000 per person with AIDS and about $140 for each child with autism.
Another way to look at that figure is for every $7.00 we spend on AIDS
related research we are spending $.14 on autism related research. Do you,
and I would ask any of the panelists to comment on this, do you feel that --
and I feel the ultimate responsibility for this rests with the Congress, not
with you, okay? So I am not trying to make you feel bad. I think we have a
responsibility to make sure that our money is spent, or the public's money,
the taxpayer money is spent appropriately. Do you think this is an
appropriate level of funding, a relatively appropriate level of funding?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
You have evoked my bias as a pediatrician. And I believe our future is with
our children. What I can tell you is that we will spend more money on autism
research, that the numbers that I've presented, regardless for the moment of
the magnitude, represent an increase in funding, at least in recent times,
for this area. And I certainly subscribe to the notion that this is an area
that should be an area of focus and emphasis for us.
Rep. Weldon:
Does anybody else want to comment?
Dr. Colleen Boyle:
I would be happy to.
Rep. Weldon:
Adequate levels of funding for the types of research studies that need to be
done on this?
Dr. Colleen Boyle:
We direct money at CDC as directed by Congress, but I can tell you that in
the last year we have gotten a substantial increase in our funding for
autism. And that has really allowed us to develop the state surveillance,
state monitoring programs that I referred to in my testimony. It is allowing
us to develop the infrastructure to actually be doing a very large study of
the epidemiology of autism. So I feel that we have made substantial
progress. But we have a lot further to go.
Rep. Gilman:
Would the gentleman yield?
Rep. Weldon:
I would be happy to yield.
Rep. Gilman:
Have any of you made a request for additional monies that have not been
allocated for your autism research? Have any of your agencies made a request
for additional sums in the budget that were not allocated to you? Or were
you all satisfied with the way the funds were being allocated?
Rep. Weldon:
I could ask it a different way. Were all of your requests granted to you by
your superiors within the agencies you work in?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
May I just say that at FDA and office of vaccines we don't have the ability
to ask for funding for studying autism per se. Our mission is to regulate
vaccines.
Rep. Weldon:
What about CDC and NIH?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
The answer for NIH is no.
Rep. Weldon:
We will make sure your future is secure in the years ahead. Dr. Boyle, I
have got to ask you a question related to what you are doing. We had a
physician testify yesterday about this increasing incidence issue, and I
think you came in my office once and we talked about this and the change in
the diagnostic statistical manual. And he made a very good point. We're all
the adults, if the prevalence isn't increasing, if the incidence isn't
increasing, then where are all the adults? In all of these studies you are
looking at prevalence and incidents, are you looking at prevalence in adults
to try to make a determination to answer that question? Is the rate
increasing?
Dr. Colleen Boyle:
Our studies have been directed at children. We primarily look at school-age
children, children age 3 to 10. That is a very good question. And as may
have come up yesterday, the prevalence, we call it prevalence only because
we think most of it has to do with sort of prenatal etiology, so that
someone is either with the condition or with the specific genetic
predisposition for the position. So we refer to prevalence.
Rep. Weldon:
I would recommend you look at that issue, looking at the disease prevalence
throughout all age groups in the population, because I think that is a very
critical question if we are going to try to get --
Dr. Colleen Boyle:
I think Dr. Amerol (phonetic) testified yesterday about efforts in
California to address the issues of sort of changes in diagnosis as many
researchers have suggested as well as the greater awareness of the condition
and the impact that has had on the increase in the number of cases seen in
California. And actually I think that is going to be a very interesting
study. It is really going to be able to shed some light on what is
happening.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Can we come back to you, Dr. Weldon? Mr. Waxman is here and he wants to ask
a few questions then we'll come right back to you.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Bernier, the CDC has explained that it is
opposed to recalling thimerosal containing vaccines because it is concerned
about shortages. In fact I understand there is a concern about a shortages
of DTaP vaccine. But at the hearing yesterday, one of the witnesses
suggested that stocks of non thimerosal vaccines are adequate and that there
was no need to keep containing vaccines on the shelves. Can you explain your
concerns about shortages? For instance, if the DTaP vaccines containing
thimerosal were recalled, what possible affect would that have on our
children?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Yes, Mr. Waxman, it is correct that at the present time for DTaP there is a
very tight supply situation. We have two additional manufacturers that have
left the market (technical difficulty) and are now left with only two
manufacturers. And there are backorders at the present time that cannot be
filled because the amount of available vaccine is not adequate to fill those
backorders. So, if in fact there was to be issued a strong preference for
thimerosal free DTaP, or if there were to be a sudden recall of the existing
DTaP vaccine with thimerosal, this would produce spot shortages which would
create, we think, delays in children being immunized, which could lead to
disease very quickly. In 1999 alone, there were 15 deaths from pertussis in
the United States, and this year already we have had five deaths from
pertussis. So, the need to continue the coverage with DTaP is very real.
These are not hypothetical our theoretical risks. We know that creating
shortages will produce coverage problems, will increase the risk of children
to these diseases.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
Last year CDC testified that they are actively monitoring possible adverse
effects of thimerosal, the mercury containing perservative that's being
phased out of vaccines, and that CDC found no link between thimerosal and
developmental delays. Have you continued to monitor for any of these effects
and what has your surveillance shown?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Well, we have continued at least to look at the autism question. In the
original results from the vaccine safety datalink, there was no evidence of
a link between thimerosal exposure and autism. And in the last year an
additional number of cases has accumulated. I believe somewhere in the
vicinity of an additional 40 cases. And when we add those cases to the ones
we looked at before, we reach the same collusion, it has not altered the
original conclusion which was that there was no link between exposure to
thimerosal and autism.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
Thank you. Dr. Midthun, at the hearing yesterday, Dr. Haley testified about
the toxicity of thimerosal containing vaccines. He suggested that the
thimerosal in vaccines were harmful to children. In the prelicensure phrase,
is a vaccine tested for toxicity?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Yes, it is. The vaccines are usually evaluated in a very large number of
infants, if that is the target population for whom they are intended. And
they are tested with regard to the entire formulation and thus if there were
(technical difficulty) trials that are done in support of the license
application.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
Does this mean the entire vaccine including all of its component parts is
tested for toxicity?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That is correct. The vaccine in entirety is tested.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
So, if a vaccine were toxic, this should be revealed in the prelicensure
phase, is that correct?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That is correct.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
What did the toxicity testing of vaccine with thimerosal reveal? Did this
testing indicate that the thimerosal is likely to pose health dangers for
children?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
The preclinical studies did not suggest that, sir.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
So why did the FDA move quickly to remove thimerosal from vaccines?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Because we felt it was an achievable goal. It was a way where we could
reduce the overall exposure to mercury among children. And it was something
that was achievable because we could switch from multidose to single does
vials in the United States, that's something that was feasible.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
Dr. Boyle, Dr. Wakefield testified at yesterday's hearing that we need
active surveillance of vaccine adverse events. Can you explain what CDC does
to actively monitor potential problems associated with vaccines? Or
whichever one of you want to answer that.
Dr. Roger Bernier:
The CDC is actively looking at vaccine safety events through the Baer
(phonetic) system. We are monitoring events. And when events occur that
create cause for concern, we have the resource represented by the vaccine
safety datalink population, which is a way -- it provides us an easier means
of testing hypotheses that may arise from adverse events that are detected.
So, we have this detection arm, and then we have a testing arm where we can
test hypotheses. And for example, this has one of the ways in which it
worked recently with rotavirus and interception where both arms of the
vaccine safety mechanisms were put into play in order to address that
concern.
Rep. Waxman, Ranking Member:
Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Let me just follow up on what Mr. Waxman says. I know he has to leave and
he's probably not going to hear the response. But did you folks test the
rotavirus vaccine before you put it on the market?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I have not been involved with the rotavirus vaccine vials.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
But it was tested by the FDA, wasn't it?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
It was tested by FEBITDA --
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
And within nine months it was recalled, wasn't it?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
Maybe I could ask Dr. Baylor. I wasn't here at the time.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
You don't have to ask him. It was recalled because one child died. There
were several serious problems with intestinal problems where there was
surgery involved, and it was recalled because --
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I just spoke with the Dr. Baylor. It wasn't actually a recall, either a
mandatory or a voluntary recall. The company decided to withdraw it from the
market, sir.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Because one child died, and a whole host of them were injured. I mean, you
can cut it either way you want to. The fact is they took it off the market,
and it had been tested. So you folks are not infallible. Now the DTaP shot,
are they still manufacturing that with thimerosal in it?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
No, Mr. Chairman they are not.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
They are not. But you say they are not producing enough of the single shot
vaccines to take care of the needs of the country at the present time?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
At the present time there is a shortage in the supply, correct. They are
backordered, and the new vaccine they are producing is not adequate to meet
the demand at the present time.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
How long will it take for that to be adequate?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
I think the FDA could have a better idea of that. My impression is that -- I
mean, relatively short -- I'm thinking of a few months, but I don't, I mean,
I don't have the information. I think FDA needs to --
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
So, in a few months they could have the supply up. Now let me ask you
this --
Dr. Roger Bernier:
Could we just get FDA, because I don't want that to be on the record if that
is true or not.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
How long will it take for them to get the single shot vial doses up to a
safe level?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I can't give you an exact timeline. What I do know is that there are two
more lots potentially containing thimerosal that the Company intends to
release. But after that, they would then be releasing only the thimerosal
reduced versions, sir.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
How many shots are in a lot?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
That's proprietary information, sir.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
You want me to subpoena it?
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I would be happy --
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
You will get it for me or I will subpoena it. I want it.
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I would be happy to respond to the Chairman's letter on that.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
There are thousands and thousands of shots of DTaP that you are going to put
into the system, and kids are going to get those shots because of the
shortage. Now let me ask you, what is the likelihood -- let's say it takes
six months, let's say it takes six months to get the single shots up to
snuff to where you have got a supply. Let's say it takes six months. How
many kids do you think are going to die in six months because they don't get
that shot?
Dr. Roger Bernier:
I can't estimate, Mr. Chairman. I can tell you that, as I mentioned earlier
in my testimony, this is not hypothetical. In 1999, there were 15 deaths
associated with pertussis. And already there have been five deaths this
year. So if we created a situation where we abruptly said, you must use
thimerosal free vaccine, that would create shortages which would lead to
delays, which would lead to what I'm calling days of lost protection.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
I understand. You've made your point. Let me just say this. I want the names
of the producers of the DTaP shot, and I am going to subpoena records from
them to find out how much is in a lot. They have two more lots that they
have to use, they have two more lots. And I want to find out how long it
would take for them to produce the diphtheria, tetanus and the pertussis
vaccines individually. And I am going to find out how long it is going to
take. Because I suspect that those lots have a lot of shots in them and
there is a lot of money involved, a lot of money involved. And as a result,
they want to sell those before they go ahead and get their lots of
individual shots up to snuff. And I think it is money. I really believe
that. And I think there is mercury in those vaccines. And during the time
that you say 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6, or 7 children are going to possibly
die, and we don't want any child to die, according to my figures there are
16 children a day that's going to come down with autism. A day. That is
17,520 children are going to be at risk for autism in the next three years
while studies are going on, if mercury has something to do with it as many,
many people believe. Scientists, toxicologists, it is not just me. We had a
whole litany of doctors from all over the world talking about this
yesterday. And what you are saying is one thing, but what scientists and
doctors and studies have already shown is that Mercury does have a
debilitating impact on the brain and so, you are talking about children at
risk. In the three years it is going to take to go through the studies,
17,520 children are likely to become autistic and if you folks are wrong,
how are you going to live with yourselves? The gentle lady is recognized.
Uknnown Speaker:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I regret that I have not been able to be here for
the entire hearing due to an overbooked schedule, but I have the testimony
and I look forward to reading it tonight. As I had said before, we have two
good friends of our family, Charles and Patience Flick, who have -- two of
their two children are afflicted with autism. And I know what a terrible
toll autism can take on a family. Everything that the Flick family does is
related and surrounded by Bonnie and Willis and their care and what will
happen to them, and any steps they take Bonnie and Willis are foremost at
their thoughts. Bonnie is a little more high functioning and is able to go
to Disney World with us. Willis is unfortunately so overstimulated by the
environment that he can barely leave his house. Everything is too much sight
and sound for him. And so I look forward to bearing -- to seeing the fruits
of the pressure that Chairman Burton is bringing to bear on this issue so
that we can improve the research dollars, so that we can have more research
going into the causes of autism and then that will lead us to the cure for
autism because I know how devastating that affliction is, not just on the
children that have it, but on their families. We look forward to getting
more evidence about the relationship between vaccinations and the rise,
dramatic rise in autism rates. And I know that many are not in agreement
with that, but I congratulate Chairman Burton for his steadfast devotion and
his bravery in spite of all (technical difficulty) trying to make this seem
like there's no tie-in whatsoever. I don't think that we should leave any
stone unturned. And if mercury is a factor, we should give serious
consideration to revamping our vaccination program and looking at other
possible factors involved in the dramatic rates in autism across the
country. So, I thank you, Chairman Burton, on behalf of the many Flick
families throughout the United States. Thank you, Dan.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Thank the Gentle lady. Ms. Morella, do you have any comments or questions?
Rep. Morella:
Actually, I commend you for the ongoing series of hearings you have had on
autism. We all care about it. I'm really here to listen, to learn and then
to do what I can to lead, and I know you have medical experts before you,
many of whom are involved in laboratories in my district, NIH, and of course
FDA; I value CDC. And I am also interested in the kind of funding that you
do have, and really we work very hard just an example to double the funding
for NIH for that five-year plan we have, so that by 2003 we will realize it,
and we are well on our way. This is our fourth year. And I'm curious with
regard to autism, and I must say a lot of the leadership on looking into
autism obviously has come from the Chairman, although I do wear sometimes my
little jigsaw puzzle ribbon which is autism, the puzzle pieces, right, which
we are trying to put together. And I understand from your testimony and I
guess this would be Dr. Rennert that $1 million is being set aside to fund
innovative treatment proposals and that you have 30 applications. How do you
work with that? I mean are you kind of a magician?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
No. I think one works with it by trying to fund as many grants as one can,
and that the limit is the number of dollars.
Rep. Morella:
So how many do you think you can?
Mr. Owen Rennert:
Well, I think again the response I would make is that the amount of funding
we could use is equivalent to the number of meritorious proposals that there
are, and it depends on where you set the bar.
Rep. Morella:
Sounds like a political answer to me.
Mr. Owen Rennert:
No, I can't give you a precise number, but the point is quite clearly we
could use more funding to fund more proposals and more research on autism.
Rep. Morella:
It just seems to me that of the 30 applications, obviously probably not all
would meet the qualifications, the peer review or what it goes through, but
certainly $1 million isn't going to fund more than a couple of them
probably.
Mr. Owen Rennert:
Three to four is what one would fund.
Rep. Morella:
So it does say something about the need for us to look more into that in
terms of the adequate funding. And then I note also looking at Dr. Boyle's
testimony, and I wasn't here to hear you synopsize it for the committee, but
you mention that CDC, NIH and 10 NIH funded centers and programs of
excellence in autism are collaborating on a case control study of
developmental regression. Each of these centers was awarded funds through
the NIH competitive process. Can you give us like a timeline on it, how that
is going?
Dr. Colleen Boyle:
Actually, I may let my colleague at NIH address that since that is actually
being organized.
Mr. Owen Rennert:
Again, the program was initiated in 1997. And at this point in time, as we
mentioned in our testimony, there are approximately 2300 patients with
well-defined autism that are part of the network and the study. The second
part is with regard specifically to the question of the temporal association
between vaccination and the onset of autism, as well as a study of the
potential effects of mercurials in vaccines as preservatives. There are at
the present time 1600 cases that are being used for the study. And the phase
one part of the study will look at 250 cases or patients with early onset
autism, 250 patients (technical difficulty) responding number of controls
for each group, and that work now is in the second phase where the analysis
will begin and the study of the biological specimens that were obtained. A
third part because you mentioned it in regard to funding, I forgot to point
out though that it was in my written testimony, that in fact we will release
in the coming year an RFA or request for applications for the competitive
renewal and the commitment to renew these centers for another five years.
Clearly, our hope would be that over time that we could add more centers to
this. But specifically, the element of study that ought to be completed as I
was asked by Chairman Burton in the next two years or so is that these
studies linking or attempting to establish whether there is some association
or what the association is between vaccination and vial mercurials will be
completed.
Rep. Morella:
Within two years then.
Mr. Owen Rennert:
Two to three years.
Rep. Morella:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Let me just say to the gentle lady that in three years is what we thought
was going to be the study, but if we waited three years to have a conclusion
drawn and we continue to use these kinds of vaccines -- we are all for
vaccinations, but not with some of these things like mercury in them --
there would be 17,520 new children that would probably be autistic. That is
if mercury did have something to do with it. I think we are about to wrap
this up. We have a number of questions we would like to submit to you for
the record. I don't want to keep you here all day. Do we have any parents
that have autistic children in the room? Would you raise your hands. How
many of you believe that your children were adversely affected by something
in the vaccines? Would you raise your hands? Is that everybody or almost
everybody? About 80 percent? Eight out of twelve -- maybe nine out of
twelve. And that is what we are getting in e-mails by the hundreds and the
thousands. Now maybe you folks are right, maybe mercury doesn't have
anything to do with it, maybe the thimerosal doesn't, but they think it
does, and there is a growing body of these people and they are getting
organized all across the country and so is the Congress of the United
States. And so I really hope you will take a hard look at this, because it
isn't going to go away. As I said before, it is going to cost this country
trillions of dollars. In any event, do you have any other questions?
Rep. Morella:
No, I don't. But of course, I hope that on the basis of all of this that if
you can expedite so that we can come to some conclusions, because I can
recognize the passion but also the desire for patience it is so difficult
for the Chairman. And I would agree with him if it has been going on since
1997, we should have some results. Thank you very much.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Thank you, Congressman Morella. We will submit then these for the record.
There are documents we are going to request. Did you have any questions?
There are documents that we will be requesting. If there is a problem with
you giving those because of confidentiality of any kind, if you would let us
know and we will be happy to legally send a subpoena to get that information
because we want to make sure we have as much research material as possible.
We'd also like to know who are the manufacturers of the DPAT shot.
Dr. Karen Midthun:
I believe Miss Clay has that.
Rep. Burton, Chairman:
Okay, we'll be contacting them to get records on the supply that they have
and how long it will take to go to singleshot vials. And with that, thank
you for being here. We stand adjourned.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Golden Earring
>For those of you who do not wish to register (there is a free level at
>delphi), I am cutting and pasting the transcript--it is somewhat long...
<snip>
Burton has an autistic grandkid. He seems a bit kooky - I seen him
once give a one hour speech in maybe 94-95 about Bill Clinton being
involved in murder in Arkansas.. Any - FWIW:
--
Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Speaker, I had a prepared statement that I
was going to use, but it has not arrived, so I will speak
extemporaneously tonight.
Mr. Speaker, vaccinations have been a real plus for this country.
We had a lot of diseases that used to be so feared, like polio and
diptheria that we do not have to worry about anymore, and it is
because we have vaccinations that really help protect our young
people.
But along with the positives, unfortunately there are some
negatives, and parents across this country ought to be aware of the
negatives as well as the positives. That is why my committee has been
holding a number of hearings and has had the health agencies of this
country before the committee numerous times.
We have had what is called an explosion of autism in America.
Autism, that is a disease most people are not familiar with unless it
has hit their family, and that is where one day your child is
apparently normal or appears to be normal, and the next day he is
running around flapping his arms, cannot speak clearly anymore, bangs
his head against the wall, has severe bowel disorders and other
related things.
We have had an explosion, an absolute explosion. Twenty years ago,
1 in 10,000 children in America were considered autistic. Today it is
1 in 500. In some parts of the country, it is as many as 1 in 150. Now
think about that; 1 in 150 children in some parts of this country is
autistic. We need to find out why.
Our committee has held hearings, and we think we have some things
that need to be thoroughly investigated, and one of those is why do we
have vaccines going into children's arms and into adults arms that
contain mercury. Mercury.
Mercury is a toxic substance that we have taken out of our topical
dressings. It used to be that you could buy creams that had mercury in
them because it was a preservative. They said because it could leach
into the bloodstream through the skin, they thought it was safer to
take it out of all topical dressings. They still use it as a
preservative in many of the vaccinations given to our children.
Mercury is being injected, as I speak tonight, into children across
this country along with the vaccinations they are getting.
Other substances being injected into our children are formaldehyde
and aluminum, metals that could be and substances that could be toxic.
We need to find out why.
I, for one, believe that my grandson became autistic at least in
part because he received vaccinations. He received 9 in 1 day, and 6
of those contained mercury. Mercury has a cumulative effect in the
body. It gets in the brain. So I believe that 1 week after he received
these vaccinations, he became autistic.
He spoke normally. He acted like any other normal child. Yet within
1 week he was running around flapping his arms, walking on his toes,
because he had severe bowel disorder, banging his head against the
wall, and he could not speak clearly anymore, and he still has those
problems.
Mr. Speaker, if what we are putting into our children's bodies
along with the vaccinations is causing that, something has to be done.
I asked the Food and Drug Administration when they were before our
committee, do we have vaccines that do not contain mercury or these
substances? They said, yes, we do, in single-vial doses. Now, what
does that mean? It means that if we have single-vial doses that do not
contain the mercury, the child is not going to get the mercury.
But what happens is, the pharmaceutical companies are putting out
many shots into one vial, and because of that they have to have these
preservatives in there, and in many cases they put several vaccines
together. And so they have these preservatives in there to make sure
that the vaccine does not become contaminated.
If we went to single-vial vaccines and shots, we would eliminate,
in my opinion, a large part of the problem. But that is why this
country needs to have continued oversight over our health agencies,
because our health agencies have not really been following up on these
vaccines to find out if there are any side effects that are really
going to hurt our kids for the rest of their lives.
Mr. Speaker, I will say tonight that mercury should be taken out of
every vaccine in the country, and it should be taken out today. There
should be an instant recall on any vaccine that is going into our
children that has mercury in it.
We have enough vaccines that do not contain these toxic chemicals
and substances, so our children can be inoculated in a safe and
effective way, and yet our health agencies continue to let these
companies use mercury in these vaccines.
Today as I speak, as I said, children are being vaccinated with
these toxic chemicals in them. It is unconscionable.
Mr. Speaker, we have what is called SIDS deaths, and they have said
it is because children go to bed and they sleep on the wrong side, and
there is no explanation why they do not. My granddaughter received a
Hepatitis B shot, and within an hour she quit breathing. We had to you
rush her to the hospital, and she was blue in the face.
Had she been in bed, the next morning she would have been dead; but
my daughter saw her and saw her turning blue and rushed her to the
hospital. It was a reaction to the Hepatitis B shot.
Mr. Speaker, let me just say in conclusion, we will have more of
these 5-minute special orders, every parent in the country ought to
start reading the inserts on those vaccines. Vaccinations are
important, but we want to make sure we know what is going into our
children's bodies.
[Begin Insert]
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM'S OVERSIGHT ACTIVITIES OF VACCINE
SAFETY
During the 106th Congress the Full Government Reform Committee and
two of its Subcommittees initiated investigations looking at several
vaccine issues. There are increasing concerns that the risks related
to vaccines are not widely known or acknowledged. Vaccines have been
hailed as the greatest public health advance in the twentieth century.
I have said from the outset of our investigation that I am not
anti-vaccine. Rather I support the appropriate use of safe vaccines
that have been thoroughly tested. I support improved information
sharing with parents and patients regarding the benefits and risks of
immunization and respect the concerns that have been raised by
thousands of families across the United States about vaccine adverse
events. I also support increased clinical research looking at the
long-term safety of vaccines, including their potential link to
chronic conditions such as autism, diabetes, attention-deficit
disorder, and asthma.
Vaccines are the only drugs Americans are mandated to receive as a
condition of attendance at day care and schools and in some
cases as a condition of employment. Because each state bases its
mandatory immunizations on Federal recommendations, it is very
important that adequate oversight be provided by Congress to insure
the integrity of the vaccine programs.
At this time, there is a paucity of research looking at long-term
safety of any vaccine. This was acknowledged last year in a report to
Congress from the Institute of Medicine, ``Few vaccines for any
disease have been actively monitored for adverse effects over long
periods of time.
CONFLICT OF INTEREST ON VACCINE-RELATED ADVISORY COMMITTEES
The Committee investigated two vaccine-related advisory committees.
We were concerned that the pharmaceutical industry has too much
influence over these committees. From the evidence we found, I think
they do. The first committee was the FDA's Vaccines and Related
Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC). This Committee makes
recommendations on whether new vaccines should be licensed. The second
committee is the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunizations Practices
(ACIP). This committee recommends which vaccines should be included on
the Childhood Immunization Schedule. We focused on the handling of the
rotavirus vaccine. The FDA approved it for use in August 1998. The CDC
recommended it for universal use in March 1999. Serious problems
cropped up shortly after it was introduced. Children started
developing serious bowel obstructions. The vaccine was pulled from the
U.S. market in October 1999. We learned that during the FDA's
committee meetings there was concern raised about adverse events. They
were aware of potential problems. Five children out of 10,000
developed bowel obstructions. There were also concerns about children
failing to thrive and developing high fevers, which as we know from
other vaccine hearings, can lead to brain injury. Even with all of
these concerns, the committee voted unanimously to approve it.
At the CDC's committee, there was a lot of discussion about whether
the benefits of the vaccine really justified the costs. Even though
the cost-benefit ratio was questioned, the Committee voted unanimously
to approve it.
We learned that waivers had been granted to individuals who had
financial ties to the industry. This is troubling. At the time the
Rotashield vaccine was approved and recommended for universal use, the
following conditions existed: (1) That members, including the chair,
of the FDA and CDC advisory committees who make these decisions own
stock in drug companies that make vaccines. (2) That individuals on
both advisory committees own patents for vaccines under consideration
or affected by the decisions of the committee. (3) That three out of
five of the members of the FDA's advisory committee who voted for the
rotavirus vaccine had conflicts of interest that were waived. (4) That
seven individuals of the 15 member FDA advisory committee were not
present at the meeting, two others were excluded from the vote, and
the remaining five were joined by five temporary voting members who
all voted to license the product. (5) That the CDC grants
conflict-of-interest waivers to every member of their advisory
committee a year at a time, and allows full participation in the
discussions leading up to a vote by every member, whether they have a
financial stake in the decision or not. (6) That the CDC's advisory
committee has no public members--no parents have a vote in whether or
not a vaccine belongs on the childhood immunization schedule. the
FDA's committee only has one public member.
Families need to have confidence that the vaccines that their
children take are safe, effective, and truly necessary. Doctors need
to feel confident that when the FDA licenses a drug, that it is really
safe, and that the pharmaceutical industry has not influenced the
decision-making process. Doctors place trust in the FDA and assume
that if the FDA has licensed a drug, it's safe to use. I am concerned
that this trust has been violated.
We will be continuing this investigation in the 107th Congress to
see if the problems have been resolved. Last week, every member of
Congress received a well-meaning letter with an attachment addressing
some of the ``anti-vaccine'' messages. The letter states the
information was prepared by the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.
What the letter fails to inform members of Congress is that the
document was prepared by a Center at Children's lead by someone with
direct financial ties to the vaccine industry. I am concerned about
this subterfuge. It is important that individuals who are promoting
vaccine safety declare their conflicts of interest. To not do so, in
my opinion is unfair to those who receive the information. This
omission of corporate sponsorship calls into question the accuracy and
balance of the information provided.
INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE'S MEASLES-MUMPS RUBELLA VACCINE AND AUTISM
REPORT
The Institute of Medicine's (IOM) Committee on Immunization Safety
Review released the ``Measles-Mumps-Rebella Vaccine and Autism
Report'' in April. I was troubled by the headlines and news reports
which all stated that the IOM Committee found no connection between
the MMR vaccine and autism. The IOM Committee also noted in its
conclusions that it could not exclude the possibility that MMR vaccine
could contribute to Autism Spectrum Disorder. I would urge all of you
to read the entire report, which is available on the National Academy
of Sciences website.
THE REALITY IS THAT THERE WAS INSUFFICIENT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO
CONCLUSIVELY PROVE OR DISPROVE A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE MMR VACCINE
AND ACQUIRED AUTISM
We have substantial parental observation, which should never be
discounted. And we have several case studies and laboratory evidence
showing measles virus in the guts of autistic children who have bowel
dysfunction. And we also have several population-level epidemiological
studies. While the IOM Committee noted that the epidemiological
studies do not support an association at a population level, their
report stated, ``it is important to recognize the inherent
methodological limitations of such studies in establishing
causality.''
In essence, the studies that have been published and held up by the
public health community as ``proof'' against Dr. Wakefield's
hypothesis can never answer the question of whether or not MMR vaccine
is linked to autism in some children. That is why we need to insist
that the National Institutes of Health fund independent research to
replicate Dr. Wakefield's research.
At this time, we do not have enough research to make an
evidence-based final conclusion. What we have is a clear indication
that a problem exists for some children. We need to do the research to
get our arms around that problem, so that we can prevent any further
escalation of this epidemic of acquired autism.
When the Institute of Medicine formed their Committee, we were
assured that there were be no one on the Committee who had ties to the
vaccine industry. I was disturbed to learn that the Committee sent
this report out for review and comment prior to becoming final to
numerous individuals who have ties to the vaccine industry including
individuals with financial ties to the manufacturer of the MMR
vaccine.
THE AUTISM EPIDEMIC
Two weeks ago, I stood in support of House Resolution 91, which
recognizes the importance of increasing the awareness of autism
spectrum disorders and supporting programs for greater research and
improved treatment of austism and improved training.
Autism rates have skyrocketed. Conservative estimates suggest 1 in
500 children in the United States is autistic. However, those rates
are dramatically higher in some places such as Brick Township, New
Jersey, where the rates are 1 in 150.
In the first quarter of this year a child was diagnosed with autism
every three hours in California. Last year, that rate was every six
hours.
Indiana is seeking a similar trend in increased rates. One in 400
children in Indiana is autistic. Between December 1999 and December
2000, requests for special education services for children with autism
went up twenty-five percent. That is a twenty-five percent increase in
requests for taxpayer provided services in one year.
We have a national and potentially worldwide epidemic on our hands.
It cannot simply be better reporting or an expanded definition of
autism.
MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
Autism or Autism Spectrum Disorder is devastating to families. I
know this from personal experience. My grandson, Christian, was born
healthy and developed normally. His story is not much different than
that of the thousands of families we have heard from over the last
year. He met his developmental milestones. He was talkative. He
enjoyed being with people. He interacted socially.
Then Christian received his routine immunizations as recommended by
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. His life changed
dramatically and rapidly. He received five different shots and one
oral vaccine all in the same day. We now know that many of these shots
contained the mercury containing preservative, thimerosal . He may
have been exposed to forty-one times the level of mercury than is
considered safe by Federal guidelines for a child his size. This was
on top of other mercury exposure from earlier vaccinations. This issue
of having mercury in children's vaccine is a very troubling issue and
I intend to continue this discussion in Special Orders every week.
Within ten days of receiving his vaccines, Christian was locked
inside the world of autism. Is it related to the MMR vaccine? Is it
related to the mercury toxicity? Is it the environment, including food
allergies? Or is autism purely genetic?
As with any epidemic, we need to focus significant energy and
research on containing it. We need to located the cause or causes. We
need to be aggressive in developing and making available treatments
for both the behavioral issues and the biomedical illnesses related to
this condition. Last week I chaired two days of hearings to ask
experts and public health officials how they have responded to this
epidemic.
SHOW ME THE SCIENCE
Some of the scientists and public health officials that have come
before the Committee would have us believe that a child's regression
into autism within a short time of vaccination is purely a
coincidence. However their opinion is not based on scientific
evidence, but on their own desire to protect vaccine policy. In fact,
our Government has funded very little research looking at the
long-term safety of vaccines and has funded no clinical research
looking at the potential connection between autism and vaccines.
I don't want to leave the impression that I am an ``anti-vaccine''
because I am not. Vaccines against serious infectious diseases such as
polio and smallpox have saved thousands of lives. I support the use of
needed vaccines that have been thoroughly evaluated for safety and
efficacy and have been tested extensively.
As Chairman of the Government Reform Committee, I have conducted
several hearings on vaccine safety issues and the potential connection
between childhood vaccines and the autism epidemic. We have heard from
a lot of witnesses on both sides of the issue. One common thread in
testimonies of dozens of witnesses is that to date there is a very
little research in this area.
Autism and vaccine safety are both very important issues. There is
a lot of research that needs to be done to get answers about the
causes of autism and whether or not the MMR vaccine and thimerosal
-containing vaccines are linked to the onset of acquired autism. Our
health agencies can no longer hide their heads in the sand and refuse
to acknowledge that we have an epidemic and that in our well-meaning
desire to protect the public at large from infectious diseases, that
we may have created this epidemic of a chronic and life-long disease.
Mark Probert
"SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
news:EQPS8.84934$hF5.4...@news2.east.cox.net...
>
>
> "Mark D. Morin" <mdm...@PETERHOOD69gwi.net> wrote in message
> news:3D1BA9E0...@gwi.net...
> > Julia wrote:
> > >
> > > I was shocked to learn my daughter's ADD is related to the very same
> > > vaccinations given nation-wide. Thimerosal is a preservative that
> contains
> > > Mercury, and it has been proven to cause neuro dysfunction, including
> ADD,
> > > autism, and more. http://66.175.11.113
> >
> > the proof is far from conclusive
>
>
> I had heard this about autism, but not about ADHD (both sons and I are
ADHD,
> younger son is also autistic-aspergers syndrome).
The anti-vac, pro-dead children, liars are now looking for another
scaremongering program to dissaude parents from having their children
vaccinated. ADHD, with all the press it has received, is the most natural
target for their new program.
> While the proof is still far from conclusive, it *is* being question by
> those in Congress...if you are registered at delphi forums, the high
> functioning autistic children forum has a post with congressional
> transcripts of such a "discussion"
> http://forums.about.com/n/main.asp?webtag=hfasd&msg=1766.8&find=Search
Congreesscritter Burton is the one who is questioning it. He has an autistic
child in his extended family and has extensively bought into the strawman
questions about thimerosal in vaccines.
> One question that kept coming up was this: Thimerisol is being excluded
from
> all newly made vaccines as a "precautionary measure", yet current stock
> (with thimerisol) is being allowed to remain in use...so, why the
> "precautions" if it is safe enough to continue use of current stock?
Also,
> why is 2 more lots being allowed out if such "precautions" are being
> taken?.....Burton continually asked for clarification on this apparent
> paradox, but got no direct answers....
The reason is quite obvious. The anti-vaccine lies have been repeated so
many times that they have developed an aura of truth and people have cut
down on the use of vaccines. Thus, the repeated pertussis outbreaks in
Idahoa and around Spokane, WA, for example. There are others.
Since the anti-vac liars have used thimerosal, a mercury compound, as their
rallying cry, the political/public health decision was made to remove it
from vaccines. With more modern production techniques, this does not
compromise preservation of the vaccine.
Now, the anti-vac liars have hung their pathetic lies on this fact as some
form of 'proof' that thimerosal is eeeeevil.
Several studies have shown absolutely no demonstrabable connection between
vaccines and autism.
> FWIW, I am unsure myself-both boys had "all their shots", yet one is
mildly
> ADHD, and one is ADHD and autistic...but even so, when the autistic son
was
> required to receive his series of HiB shots, I did request (and got)
> thimerisol-free versions.
Good. Before the HiB was available, my friend, who was a pewdiatric
neurologist at the time, had a son who developed severe brain damage
menigitis due to HiB. The tragedy was complicated by watching my friend die
inside himself. He heft medical practice for five years, and has just
recently re-opened his practice in another state.
> For those of you who do not wish to register (there is a free level at
> delphi), I am cutting and pasting the transcript--it is somewhat long...
>
> --
> Buny
>
Snip
William Mullin
I was shocked to learn that the above poster is a shill for an
ambulance-chasing law office. There is nothing at the site that
refers to ADD/ADHD. Money-grubbing lawyers are no better than
the money-grubbing members of the Snakeoil-Industrial Complex.
John Palmer
<sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote:
>
>One question that kept coming up was this: Thimerisol is being excluded from
>all newly made vaccines as a "precautionary measure", yet current stock
>(with thimerisol) is being allowed to remain in use...so, why the
>"precautions" if it is safe enough to continue use of current stock? Also,
>why is 2 more lots being allowed out if such "precautions" are being
>taken?.....Burton continually asked for clarification on this apparent
>paradox, but got no direct answers....
There's no paradox... but it would expose corporate decision
making processes too much to give the reasoning.
One can guess that the reasoning for stopping the use of
thimerisol is "to prevent risk of later legal problems (i.e.: later
financial losses)" and the continued use is because "the (FINANCIAL!)
risk isn't enough to justify losing money, yet".
>
>FWIW, I am unsure myself-both boys had "all their shots", yet one is mildly
>ADHD, and one is ADHD and autistic...but even so, when the autistic son was
>required to receive his series of HiB shots, I did request (and got)
>thimerisol-free versions.
It will surprise me if it turns out that thimerisol is 'the'
cause of autism or any other serious problem. It won't surprise me
nearly as much if it turns out that there's a connection (perhaps
folks with a sensitivity to it have problems, while most folks don't).
--
Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like:
for many of the best, noblest concepts of the world's religions, the word
"believe" is five letters too long.
John Palmer
<mdm...@PETERHOOD69gwi.net> wrote:
>Julia wrote:
>>
>> I was shocked to learn my daughter's ADD is related to the very same
>> vaccinations given nation-wide. Thimerosal is a preservative that contains
>> Mercury, and it has been proven to cause neuro dysfunction, including ADD,
>> autism, and more. http://66.175.11.113
>
>the proof is far from conclusive
Shrug. I'd never trust an IP address link anyway. A domain name
requires a real person (or entity), with name and address. Why does a
person want to hide that?
Mark Probert
"William Mullin" <wmu...@blackhole.nyx.net> wrote in message
news:10252161...@irys.nyx.net...
This site is truly an outrage. The *lawyer* looks like she is a medical
professional.
SumBuny
"Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:afhlbo$ehutn$1...@ID-78438.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:EQPS8.84934$hF5.4...@news2.east.cox.net...
> >
> >
> > "Mark D. Morin" <mdm...@PETERHOOD69gwi.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D1BA9E0...@gwi.net...
> > > Julia wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was shocked to learn my daughter's ADD is related to the very same
> > > > vaccinations given nation-wide. Thimerosal is a preservative that
> > contains
> > > > Mercury, and it has been proven to cause neuro dysfunction,
including
> > ADD,
> > > > autism, and more. http://66.175.11.113
> > >
> > > the proof is far from conclusive
> >
> >
> > I had heard this about autism, but not about ADHD (both sons and I are
> ADHD,
> > younger son is also autistic-aspergers syndrome).
>
> The anti-vac, pro-dead children, liars are now looking for another
> scaremongering program to dissaude parents from having their children
> vaccinated. ADHD, with all the press it has received, is the most natural
> target for their new program.
....While I am nowhere near "antivaccine", I have had enough concerns about
this to request that my sons' future shots be of the formula without
thimerisol...
>
> > While the proof is still far from conclusive, it *is* being question by
> > those in Congress...if you are registered at delphi forums, the high
> > functioning autistic children forum has a post with congressional
> > transcripts of such a "discussion"
> > http://forums.about.com/n/main.asp?webtag=hfasd&msg=1766.8&find=Search
>
> Congreesscritter Burton is the one who is questioning it. He has an
autistic
> child in his extended family and has extensively bought into the strawman
> questions about thimerosal in vaccines.
....if there was any possibility that it was a factor in your child
developing this, would you be asking such questions? ("the proof is far from
conclusive"...it is also far from conclusive that this is *not* a factor in
the substantial increase in autism either--why not continue to ask
questions?)
I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we stop
vaccinating our children....I did see a bit of a double standard of what is
"precautionary" and what is not....
I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future stock, but
not with present stock...
>
> > One question that kept coming up was this: Thimerisol is being excluded
> from
> > all newly made vaccines as a "precautionary measure", yet current stock
> > (with thimerisol) is being allowed to remain in use...so, why the
> > "precautions" if it is safe enough to continue use of current stock?
> Also,
> > why is 2 more lots being allowed out if such "precautions" are being
> > taken?.....Burton continually asked for clarification on this apparent
> > paradox, but got no direct answers....
>
> The reason is quite obvious. The anti-vaccine lies have been repeated so
> many times that they have developed an aura of truth and people have cut
> down on the use of vaccines. Thus, the repeated pertussis outbreaks in
> Idahoa and around Spokane, WA, for example. There are others.
>
> Since the anti-vac liars have used thimerosal, a mercury compound, as
their
> rallying cry, the political/public health decision was made to remove it
> from vaccines. With more modern production techniques, this does not
> compromise preservation of the vaccine.
Again, I say:
I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we stop
vaccinating our children....I did see a bit of a double standard of what is
"precautionary" and what is not....
I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future stock, but
not with present stock...
>
> Now, the anti-vac liars have hung their pathetic lies on this fact as some
> form of 'proof' that thimerosal is eeeeevil.
>
> Several studies have shown absolutely no demonstrabable connection between
> vaccines and autism.
When were these studies conducted, and how? Did they conclusively show that
they are not a factor in autism?
>
> > FWIW, I am unsure myself-both boys had "all their shots", yet one is
> mildly
> > ADHD, and one is ADHD and autistic...but even so, when the autistic son
> was
> > required to receive his series of HiB shots, I did request (and got)
> > thimerisol-free versions.
>
> Good. Before the HiB was available, my friend, who was a pewdiatric
> neurologist at the time, had a son who developed severe brain damage
> menigitis due to HiB. The tragedy was complicated by watching my friend
die
> inside himself. He heft medical practice for five years, and has just
> recently re-opened his practice in another state.
Which is why I am not "antivaccine", but am "pro-safe vaccine"....I do not
know if mercury poisoning had anything to do with my son's developing
asperger's, but on the chance it might have, shouldn't I be able to ensure
that he is not further exposed to it in his shots? *I* know enough to
request it (and had to go through some hoops to do so last Sep--the base had
not heard of it, and had to "borrow" some from the city health clinic....by
the time he had his final shot of the series 6 months later, the base was
fully stocked with thimerisol-free formulations---wonder why?)....what about
all those who do not...and end up having their children exposed to existing
(thimerisol included) stock-not to mention the next two lots (and how much
*is* in a lot) that will be shipped...??
Burton has also asked how the public is being informed of this....with
hedging answers...
Please note again....those of us asking questions, asking that thimerisol be
eliminated from vaccines are not "antivaccines"-if were were, why only ask
for this to be removed from the vaccines and not the vaccines themselves be
removed (the only vaccines we are asking be removed are the ones with the
thimerisol--after all, there must be some kind of concern about this since
all future stock will not have it....if it is "safe enough to keep in
current stock" why remove it from future stock? And if it is considered
"precautionary" to remove it from future stock, why allow the current stock
to keep it? I am confused by this double standard...are the future kids to
be better protected than the ones we have now?)
SumBuny
"John Palmer" <jpal...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:7b0phukk8lnmkjihs...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:27:48 GMT, "SumBuny"
> <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote:
> One can guess that the reasoning for stopping the use of
> thimerisol is "to prevent risk of later legal problems (i.e.: later
> financial losses)" and the continued use is because "the (FINANCIAL!)
> risk isn't enough to justify losing money, yet".
...exactly--which is, IMHO, the point Burton was trying to make...
>
> >
> >FWIW, I am unsure myself-both boys had "all their shots", yet one is
mildly
> >ADHD, and one is ADHD and autistic...but even so, when the autistic son
was
> >required to receive his series of HiB shots, I did request (and got)
> >thimerisol-free versions.
>
> It will surprise me if it turns out that thimerisol is 'the'
> cause of autism or any other serious problem. It won't surprise me
> nearly as much if it turns out that there's a connection (perhaps
> folks with a sensitivity to it have problems, while most folks don't).
Actually, that is also my opinion...perhaps one of my sons had a gene that
made him more sensitive to the damaging effects of mercury(or whatever in
the vaccine) than the other--and if we can determine this, than perhaps one
day, infants can be screened for such genetic sensitivities, and their
immunization adjusted accordingly in a way to protect them from both disease
*and* the "cure"...
One thing that is good about this-the explosive increase of autism is being
discussed openly, and perhaps something will be done about the lack of
adequate research. I don't remember where, but there was a cite that
compared the incidence of newly discovered autism with the incidence of
newly discovered HIV/AIDS....autism cases increased a lot more than
hiv/aids, yet the difference in the funding for research was staggering...
And, yes, this is a "close to home" issue with me, because of my sons...
<G>
Deborah M Riel
SumBuny <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote:
>
>Which is why I am not "antivaccine", but am "pro-safe vaccine"....I do not
>know if mercury poisoning had anything to do with my son's developing
>asperger's, but on the chance it might have, shouldn't I be able to ensure
>that he is not further exposed to it in his shots? *I* know enough to
>request it (and had to go through some hoops to do so last Sep--the base had
>not heard of it, and had to "borrow" some from the city health clinic....by
>the time he had his final shot of the series 6 months later, the base was
>fully stocked with thimerisol-free formulations---wonder why?)....what about
>all those who do not...and end up having their children exposed to existing
>(thimerisol included) stock-not to mention the next two lots (and how much
>*is* in a lot) that will be shipped...??
I'm certainly not anti-vaccine, but this topic is of interest to me.
My son has ADHD and Nonverbal Learning Disorder, which some people
feel is related in a way to Aspergers (even though he shows no signs
of Aspergers). My question is, could a tetnus shot *I* had when I was
about 4 or 5 months pregnant be related to the NLD? I can see where
he may have inherited the ADHD, but with all the talk about the
mercury in vaccines and Aspergers, it makes me wonder. Have there
been any studies done on the development of these disorders in
children from their mothers receiving the mercury through a vaccine
while pregnant? I was assured at the time that it was a safe thing to
do, but I wonder.
Deb R.
>Buny
Mark Probert
"SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
Always a good idea to avoid whatever can be avoided. However, I do not think
that you have anything to be concerned abou.t Note the way the anti-vaxers
are swtiching to ADHD...they need more fearmongering, as they are real short
on facts. All well designed studies (notably excluding Wakefield) studies
point to no link.
Until a few years ago, I kept up a full complement of vaccinations for
myself. Many of them had Thimerosal.
> > > While the proof is still far from conclusive, it *is* being question
by
> > > those in Congress...if you are registered at delphi forums, the high
> > > functioning autistic children forum has a post with congressional
> > > transcripts of such a "discussion"
> > > http://forums.about.com/n/main.asp?webtag=hfasd&msg=1766.8&find=Search
> >
> > Congreesscritter Burton is the one who is questioning it. He has an
> autistic
> > child in his extended family and has extensively bought into the
strawman
> > questions about thimerosal in vaccines.
>
> ....if there was any possibility that it was a factor in your child
> developing this, would you be asking such questions? ("the proof is far
from
> conclusive"...it is also far from conclusive that this is *not* a factor
in
> the substantial increase in autism either--why not continue to ask
> questions?)
As far as I can see, there is no evidence to support a link. Having observe
the tactics and other blather of the proponents of a link, I doubt that
there is one, even more.
> I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we stop
> vaccinating our children....I did see a bit of a double standard of what
is
> "precautionary" and what is not....
>
> I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future stock,
but
> not with present stock...
POLITICS.
The fearmongering is having an effect. The rates of immunization have
dropped in some areas. Look at what happened in Idaho wrt Pertussis. Same in
Spokane.
The transcript was only a part of the proceedings. many of the anti-vac
websites cite it, selectively, to support their position.
> I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future stock,
but
> not with present stock...
Because there is no real, medically demonstrable need, to take precautions
at all.
> > Now, the anti-vac liars have hung their pathetic lies on this fact as
some
> > form of 'proof' that thimerosal is eeeeevil.
> >
> > Several studies have shown absolutely no demonstrabable connection
between
> > vaccines and autism.
>
> When were these studies conducted, and how? Did they conclusively show
that
> they are not a factor in autism?
Conclusive? Noting is conclusive. However, they were done on several
different populations and have shown no link. They cannot absolutely rule
out a link, and readily acknowledge that. The anti-vac liars take that as an
admission that there is a link.
> > > FWIW, I am unsure myself-both boys had "all their shots", yet one is
> > mildly
> > > ADHD, and one is ADHD and autistic...but even so, when the autistic
son
> > was
> > > required to receive his series of HiB shots, I did request (and got)
> > > thimerisol-free versions.
> >
> > Good. Before the HiB was available, my friend, who was a pewdiatric
> > neurologist at the time, had a son who developed severe brain damage
> > menigitis due to HiB. The tragedy was complicated by watching my friend
> die
> > inside himself. He heft medical practice for five years, and has just
> > recently re-opened his practice in another state.
>
> Which is why I am not "antivaccine", but am "pro-safe vaccine"....I do not
> know if mercury poisoning had anything to do with my son's developing
> asperger's, but on the chance it might have, shouldn't I be able to ensure
> that he is not further exposed to it in his shots?
Of course. However, there is no real need.
>*I* know enough to
> request it (and had to go through some hoops to do so last Sep--the base
had
> not heard of it, and had to "borrow" some from the city health
clinic....by
> the time he had his final shot of the series 6 months later, the base was
> fully stocked with thimerisol-free formulations---wonder why?)....
The military is always the last to get this stuff. Takes forever in the
supply chian...
> what about
> all those who do not...and end up having their children exposed to
existing
> (thimerisol included) stock-not to mention the next two lots (and how much
> *is* in a lot) that will be shipped...??
I do not see a problem for them.
> Burton has also asked how the public is being informed of this....with
> hedging answers...
Visit the CDC website. It is fully discussed.
> Please note again....those of us asking questions, asking that thimerisol
be
> eliminated from vaccines are not "antivaccines"-if were were, why only ask
> for this to be removed from the vaccines and not the vaccines themselves
be
> removed (the only vaccines we are asking be removed are the ones with the
> thimerisol--after all, there must be some kind of concern about this since
> all future stock will not have it....if it is "safe enough to keep in
> current stock" why remove it from future stock? And if it is considered
> "precautionary" to remove it from future stock, why allow the current
stock
> to keep it? I am confused by this double standard...are the future kids
to
> be better protected than the ones we have now?)
> --
There is nothing to protect them from.
Mark Probert
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:afic2u$28tm$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
Here's an interesting study on the fearmongering of the
anti-vaccinationistas:
http://www.mindspring.com/~schlafly/vac/vacwebsites.htm
Also, read this:
http://www.mindspring.com/~schlafly/vac/antivacsites.pdf
The whole anti-vaccination movement is replete with lies.
SumBuny
"Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:afiian$ei7ip$1...@ID-78438.news.dfncis.de...
> > SumBuny <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > >Which is why I am not "antivaccine", but am "pro-safe vaccine"....I do
> not
> > >know if mercury poisoning had anything to do with my son's developing
> > >asperger's, but on the chance it might have, shouldn't I be able to
> ensure
> > >that he is not further exposed to it in his shots? *I* know enough to
> > >request it (and had to go through some hoops to do so last Sep--the
base
> had
> > >not heard of it, and had to "borrow" some from the city health
> clinic....by
> > >the time he had his final shot of the series 6 months later, the base
was
> > >fully stocked with thimerisol-free formulations---wonder why?)....what
> about
> > >all those who do not...and end up having their children exposed to
> existing
> > >(thimerisol included) stock-not to mention the next two lots (and how
> much
> > >*is* in a lot) that will be shipped...??
> Here's an interesting study on the fearmongering of the
> anti-vaccinationistas:
>
> http://www.mindspring.com/~schlafly/vac/vacwebsites.htm
>
> Also, read this:
>
> http://www.mindspring.com/~schlafly/vac/antivacsites.pdf
>
> The whole anti-vaccination movement is replete with lies.
Why are you bringing up "antivaccine" when I am questioning whether or not a
single ingredient be in them? I have stated I am all for vaccines...but I
*am* asking questions about the double standard of "precaution" between new
inventory and current inventory...
As far as "Schlafly"...I have not been impressed with anything linking that
name and mental health, why should I be impressed with its linkage here?
But I did read the latter link....please tell me which part of it has to do
with questioning the above double standard and which part has to do with the
need to have mercury in vaccines when it has been removed from so many other
things as a safety hazard?
And, if results are not conclusive, how is asking for further clarification
on the inconclusive results per autism and mercury be seen as "antivaccine"
when people like me are trying to vaccinate our children without possibly
increasing their autism?
I am looking for clarification, in order to be as best informed on my
family's medical options as possible...I wish to be an "informed consumer of
medicine" in order to be a better "team player" with my family's
physicians.....and if asking questions about such contradictory statements
is seen by you as being "antivaccine" (even though I am for such
preventative care), then so be it--and you and I will have to "agree to
disagree" on this....
Mark Probert
"SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
That single ingredient has been the rallying cry of the anti-vac movement.
The fact that the ingredient was raised is why I am responding to it in this
manner. AFAIAC, it is a pure strawman.
I have stated I am all for vaccines...but I
> *am* asking questions about the double standard of "precaution" between
new
> inventory and current inventory...
>
> As far as "Schlafly"...I have not been impressed with anything linking
that
> name and mental health, why should I be impressed with its linkage here?
He actually posted something honest, for a change. It was a matter of
convenience.
> But I did read the latter link....please tell me which part of it has to
do
> with questioning the above double standard and which part has to do with
the
> need to have mercury in vaccines when it has been removed from so many
other
> things as a safety hazard?
The questioning of the 'double standard' is part and parcel of the entire
anti-vac movement. The questioning was raised as part of their fearmongering
campaign.
> And, if results are not conclusive, how is asking for further
clarification
> on the inconclusive results per autism and mercury be seen as
"antivaccine"
> when people like me are trying to vaccinate our children without possibly
> increasing their autism?
If you are looking for a conclusive study, then you will never have an
answer. The best evidence is that there is no link. A link has been looked
for, and not found.
SumBuny
"Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:afii02$esmcd$1...@ID-78438.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:0f2T8.86274$hF5.4...@news2.east.cox.net...
> > ....While I am nowhere near "antivaccine", I have had enough concerns
> about
> > this to request that my sons' future shots be of the formula without
> > thimerisol...
>
> Always a good idea to avoid whatever can be avoided. However, I do not
think
> that you have anything to be concerned abou.t Note the way the anti-vaxers
> are swtiching to ADHD...they need more fearmongering, as they are real
short
> on facts. All well designed studies (notably excluding Wakefield) studies
> point to no link.
....perhaps, but you have to admit that there are a lot of similarities in
symptoms, especially in the HFA population. The way we describe it in my
son (ADHD/gifted/aspergers) is "overlap", because there are many times that
we have to first determine which diagnosis is causing a particular problem
before we can try to intervene...
...but I can also see your point in trying to "rouse more rabble"...
>
> Until a few years ago, I kept up a full complement of vaccinations for
> myself. Many of them had Thimerosal.
....a few years ago. Did you stop carrying vaccines, or stop carrying those
with thimerisol?
.
> >
> > ....if there was any possibility that it was a factor in your child
> > developing this, would you be asking such questions? ("the proof is far
> from
> > conclusive"...it is also far from conclusive that this is *not* a factor
> in
> > the substantial increase in autism either--why not continue to ask
> > questions?)
>
> As far as I can see, there is no evidence to support a link. Having
observe
> the tactics and other blather of the proponents of a link, I doubt that
> there is one, even more.
Then we definately need more funds for research in why there seems to be
such an explosion of autism at approximately the same time that our infants
and toddlers are receiving so many injections including this
preservative....if this is not a factor, we need to find out what is.
I am unfamiliar with the specifics of what consitutes an epidemic...what is
the necessary "increase of incidence" for a condition to be called
"epidemic"? And once classified as such, what actions are/should be taken?
There are some who have noted that autism has risen 200-500% in many
areas--and not just from new awareness
http://www.autism.com/ari/editorials/autismincrease.html
Some place the increase even higher...
http://osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/incidence.htm
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/autism/caus08.shtml
"It's very difficult to estimate prevalence," Dawson said. "Twenty years
ago, we said 4 or 5 out of 10,000. Today, we say 1 in 500 or 1,000." I have
not taken statistics, but these numbers are truly alarming...
Just to put things in perspective...
http://autism-society.org/news/chairmansautism02smallprint.pdf
"That's good, but let's put that into perspective. At the same time the NIH
is
spending 56 million dollars on autism - a condition that affects 1 in 250
children in this country - they are investing over 2.2 billion dollars in
AIDs
research. The rates of diabetes increased by 49 percent between 1990 and
2000. Diabetes is a devastating condition in the Native American community
and of increasing concern in the African American and pediatric populations.
This year, the NIH investment for diabetes is 688 million."
....while I do admit the paper has much about the question of mercury...how
does one justify the amount of research dollars on a condition that has been
increasing at such a high rate, when compared to other conditions?
>
> > I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we
stop
> > vaccinating our children....I did see a bit of a double standard of what
> is
> > "precautionary" and what is not....
> >
> > I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future stock,
> but
> > not with present stock...
>
> POLITICS.
>
> The fearmongering is having an effect. The rates of immunization have
> dropped in some areas. Look at what happened in Idaho wrt Pertussis. Same
in
> Spokane.
....is this addressing their taking out of future stock, or their
inconsistancy in not also taking it out of the present stock?
> > Again, I say:
> >
> >
> > I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we
stop
> > vaccinating our children....I did see a bit of a double standard of what
> is
> > "precautionary" and what is not....
>
> The transcript was only a part of the proceedings. many of the anti-vac
> websites cite it, selectively, to support their position.
....this was on a forum at an *autism* website....(autism.about.com)...and
posted by a member upon the request of others who had not a chance to
see/hear the proceedings..
>
> > I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future stock,
> but
> > not with present stock...
>
> Because there is no real, medically demonstrable need, to take precautions
> at all.
....then why do it? I know, "politics"...but if they are so
afraid/motivated, why only do a half-assed job?
> > When were these studies conducted, and how? Did they conclusively show
> that
> > they are not a factor in autism?
>
> Conclusive? Noting is conclusive. However, they were done on several
> different populations and have shown no link.
....*When*? This would imply what kind of research technology....and if it
was done *before* the sharp increase, that should alos be considered, should
it not?
> They cannot absolutely rule
> out a link, and readily acknowledge that. The anti-vac liars take that as
an
> admission that there is a link.
....is there any reason why we have to have mercury injected into our kids,
when alternative vaccines are practical?
> >
> > Which is why I am not "antivaccine", but am "pro-safe vaccine"....I do
not
> > know if mercury poisoning had anything to do with my son's developing
> > asperger's, but on the chance it might have, shouldn't I be able to
ensure
> > that he is not further exposed to it in his shots?
>
> Of course. However, there is no real need.
....then mercury is safe to inject? mercury is safe to be ingested?
mercury is safe to be handled without gloves? Why was it removed from so
many things years ago, then?
What is the effect of mercury on the human body?
>
> >*I* know enough to
> > request it (and had to go through some hoops to do so last Sep--the base
> had
> > not heard of it, and had to "borrow" some from the city health
> clinic....by
> > the time he had his final shot of the series 6 months later, the base
was
> > fully stocked with thimerisol-free formulations---wonder why?)....
>
> The military is always the last to get this stuff. Takes forever in the
> supply chian...
....ah, since the local base is now stocked with thimerisol-free vaccines,
then that must mean that all of the civilian clinics have all
thinerisol-free stock?
That is not the implications from this transcript--it was stated that 2 more
lots of thimerisol vaccines were still due to hit the shelves....
>
> > what about
> > all those who do not...and end up having their children exposed to
> existing
> > (thimerisol included) stock-not to mention the next two lots (and how
much
> > *is* in a lot) that will be shipped...??
>
> I do not see a problem for them.
...would you also inject a child in your family with mercury if an
alternative was available?
>
> > Please note again....those of us asking questions, asking that
thimerisol
> be
> > eliminated from vaccines are not "antivaccines"-if were were, why only
ask
> > for this to be removed from the vaccines and not the vaccines themselves
> be
> > removed (the only vaccines we are asking be removed are the ones with
the
> > thimerisol--after all, there must be some kind of concern about this
since
> > all future stock will not have it....if it is "safe enough to keep in
> > current stock" why remove it from future stock? And if it is considered
> > "precautionary" to remove it from future stock, why allow the current
> stock
> > to keep it? I am confused by this double standard...are the future kids
> to
> > be better protected than the ones we have now?)
> > --
>
> There is nothing to protect them from.
Then why all the double speak from the producers of the vaccines?
Golden Earring
Golden Earring
>For those of you who do not wish to register (there is a free level at
>delphi), I am cutting and pasting the transcript--it is somewhat long...
<snip>
Golden Earring
> Shrug. I'd never trust an IP address link anyway. A domain name
>requires a real person (or entity), with name and address.
No it doesn't. Clueless again.
Floyd, Pink
>This site is truly an outrage. The *lawyer* looks like she is a medical
>professional.
That is a professional site?
Xerox Stock Holder
>I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we stop
>vaccinating our children....
Don't confuse Probert with the facts.
Xerox Stock Holder
>...exactly--which is, IMHO, the point Burton was trying to make...
Burton only makes the point less believable. How many conspiracy
theories does he have?
Xerox Stock Holder
>Why are you bringing up "antivaccine" when I am questioning whether or not a
>single ingredient be in them?
Good point. He seems to be reading too much into things.
Xerox Stock Holder
>If you are looking for a conclusive study, then you will never have an
>answer. The best evidence is that there is no link. A link has been looked
>for, and not found.
Post all of those long term studies, there must be thousands, yes?
Xerox Stock Holder
>Until a few years ago, I kept up a full complement of vaccinations for
>myself. Many of them had Thimerosal.
That explains quite a bit.
Xerox Stock Holder
>There is nothing to protect them from.
Thanks for setting parents mind at ease.
Xerox Stock Holder
>I'm certainly not anti-vaccine, but this topic is of interest to me.
>My son has ADHD and Nonverbal Learning Disorder, which some people
>feel is related in a way to Aspergers (even though he shows no signs
>of Aspergers). My question is, could a tetnus shot *I* had when I was
>about 4 or 5 months pregnant be related to the NLD? I can see where
>he may have inherited the ADHD, but with all the talk about the
>mercury in vaccines and Aspergers, it makes me wonder. Have there
>been any studies done on the development of these disorders in
>children from their mothers receiving the mercury through a vaccine
>while pregnant? I was assured at the time that it was a safe thing to
>do, but I wonder.
Maybe Mark will be kind enough to post the overwhelming evidence.
William Mullin
Mark Probert <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"William Mullin" <wmu...@blackhole.nyx.net> wrote in message
>news:10252161...@irys.nyx.net...
>> In article <SVLS8.22384$PJ.7...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
>> I was shocked to learn that the above poster is a shill for an
>> ambulance-chasing law office. There is nothing at the site that
>> refers to ADD/ADHD. Money-grubbing lawyers are no better than
>> the money-grubbing members of the Snakeoil-Industrial Complex.
>
>This site is truly an outrage. The *lawyer* looks like she is a medical
>professional.
I sent a complaint to ab...@rr.com regarding the ambulance chaser's
despicable tactics.
SumBuny
about the seeming contradictions of no longer putting thimerisol in new
vaccines, and allowing thimerisol to remain in current stock....how about
looking at the joint statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the
Public Health Service on July 7, 1999....
http://www.altcorp.com/SlideShows/Thimerosal/sld015.htm
"On the one hand, there is the known serious risk of diseases and deaths
caused by failure to immunize our infants against vaccine-preventable
infectious diseases; on the other, there is the unknown and probably much
smaller risk, if any, of neuro-developmental effects posed by exposure to
thimerosal."
"The large risks of not vaccinating children far outweigh the unknown and
probably much smaller risk, if any, of cumulative exposure to
thimerosal-containing vaccines over the first six months of life."
" Nevertheless, because any potential risk is of concern, the Public
Health Service, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine
manufacturers agree that thimerosal-containing vaccines should be removed as
soon as possible."
Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 1999; 48:563-565.
This was taken from a slide show on the dangers of thimerisol...the slides
that follow this particular one go on to describe tests on the brains of
mice, and what the negative effects were on "brain necleotide binding
proteins". Following slides describe results with tests of other mammalian
brain cells (pig and cow cells), as well as human lymphatic cells. Now, I
make no claims to a medical degree, but when I see the conclusions at the
end of this, I get concerned....this shows specifics that indicate that
there *may* be some danger....
Conclusions
-Thimerosal is a potent inhibitor of several mammalian nucleotide binding
proteins vital for normal cellular functioning.
-Inhibition of nucleotide binding is observed at low micromolar
concentrations and is dose dependent
-Inhibition of nucleotide binding by thimerosal is not due to the
thiosalicylate moiety leaving only the ethyl mercury portion of the molecule
as the potential site of toxic interaction
-Thimerosal is a more potent inhibitor of ATP binding to purified mammalian
proteins than is mercuric (II) cation.
Hypothesis-Exposure To Drugs and Toxicants During Times Of Stress Increases
Their Toxic Potential
-"Extreme stress renders the blood-brain barrier permeable to drugs that
normally act peripherally".1
-"The blood-brain-barrier consist of continuos layer of endothelial cells
that are joined by tight junctions with very high electrical resistance.
This impedes the flow of ions and large molecules across the plasma
membranes of endothelial cells. Small lipophilic molecules can cross the
BBB, and the more lipophilic the molecule, the better its penetration into
and out of the brain."1
-Thimerosal is more lipophilic than is mercury cation (Hg2+).
-Could increased amounts of thimerosal contained in vaccines potentially
cross the blood-brain barrier during times of stress
1Israel Hanin. "The Gulf War, stress and a leaky blood-brain barrier".
Nature Medicine, Volume 2, Number 12, December 1996, pp.1307-1308
But when I get a blanket reassurance from others, without specifics, after
seeing this, I start to wonder which one is more credible...But if anyone
wants to explain to me why these statements from the AAP/PHS, or the
conclusions/hypotheses from these tests from altcorp
(http://www.altcorp.com/SlideShows/Thimerosal/sld001.htm) are no cause for
concern, please do so....
Now, I teach my children not to play in the street, not because there is a
current danger of a car hitting them or even a likely danger of a car
hitting them (low traffic, low speed neighborhood with lots of kids and lots
of awareness of said kids), but because one *might* hit them....I don't see
any difference in removing a known toxic element from an injection because
it *might* cause damage...
Le Package Totale
>Now, I teach my children not to play in the street, not because there is a
>current danger of a car hitting them or even a likely danger of a car
>hitting them (low traffic, low speed neighborhood with lots of kids and lots
>of awareness of said kids), but because one *might* hit them....I don't see
>any difference in removing a known toxic element from an injection because
>it *might* cause damage...
Damn, a good post - but then comes the analogy................
Le Package Totale
>Since I have been compared to "antivaccine propagandists" by my questions
>about the seeming contradictions of no longer putting thimerisol in new
>vaccines, and allowing thimerisol to remain in current stock....how about
>looking at the joint statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the
>Public Health Service on July 7, 1999....
>http://www.altcorp.com/SlideShows/Thimerosal/sld015.htm
>
>"On the one hand, there is the known serious risk of diseases and deaths
>caused by failure to immunize our infants against vaccine-preventable
>infectious diseases; on the other, there is the unknown and probably much
>smaller risk, if any, of neuro-developmental effects posed by exposure to
>thimerosal."
>
>"The large risks of not vaccinating children far outweigh the unknown and
>probably much smaller risk, if any, of cumulative exposure to
>thimerosal-containing vaccines over the first six months of life."
>
> " Nevertheless, because any potential risk is of concern, the Public
>Health Service, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine
>manufacturers agree that thimerosal-containing vaccines should be removed as
>soon as possible."
Probert - is that a "pro-death" statement?
Zainul Abideen Smith
>This site is truly an outrage. The *lawyer* looks like she is a medical
>professional.
That is a professional site?
Zainul Abideen Smith
>I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we stop
Zainul Abideen Smith
>...exactly--which is, IMHO, the point Burton was trying to make...
Burton only makes the point less believable. How many conspiracy
theories does he have?
Zainul Abideen Smith
>Why are you bringing up "antivaccine" when I am questioning whether or not a
>single ingredient be in them?
Good point. He seems to be reading too much into things.
Zainul Abideen Smith
>If you are looking for a conclusive study, then you will never have an
>answer. The best evidence is that there is no link. A link has been looked
>for, and not found.
Post all of those long term studies, there must be thousands, yes?
Xerox Stock Holder
>Until a few years ago, I kept up a full complement of vaccinations for
>myself. Many of them had Thimerosal.
That explains quite a bit.
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
>Now, I teach my children not to play in the street, not because there is a
>current danger of a car hitting them or even a likely danger of a car
>hitting them (low traffic, low speed neighborhood with lots of kids and lots
>of awareness of said kids), but because one *might* hit them....I don't see
>any difference in removing a known toxic element from an injection because
>it *might* cause damage...
Damn, a good post - but then comes the analogy................
Zainul Abideen Smith
>Since I have been compared to "antivaccine propagandists" by my questions
>about the seeming contradictions of no longer putting thimerisol in new
>vaccines, and allowing thimerisol to remain in current stock....how about
>looking at the joint statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the
>Public Health Service on July 7, 1999....
>http://www.altcorp.com/SlideShows/Thimerosal/sld015.htm
>
>"On the one hand, there is the known serious risk of diseases and deaths
>caused by failure to immunize our infants against vaccine-preventable
>infectious diseases; on the other, there is the unknown and probably much
>smaller risk, if any, of neuro-developmental effects posed by exposure to
>thimerosal."
>
>"The large risks of not vaccinating children far outweigh the unknown and
>probably much smaller risk, if any, of cumulative exposure to
>thimerosal-containing vaccines over the first six months of life."
>
> " Nevertheless, because any potential risk is of concern, the Public
>Health Service, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine
>manufacturers agree that thimerosal-containing vaccines should be removed as
>soon as possible."
Probert - is that a "pro-death" statement?
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
Xerox Stock Holder
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
Zainul Abideen Smith
>Now, I teach my children not to play in the street, not because there is a
>current danger of a car hitting them or even a likely danger of a car
>hitting them (low traffic, low speed neighborhood with lots of kids and lots
>of awareness of said kids), but because one *might* hit them....I don't see
>any difference in removing a known toxic element from an injection because
>it *might* cause damage...
Damn, a good post - but then comes the analogy................
Zainul Abideen Smith
>Since I have been compared to "antivaccine propagandists" by my questions
>about the seeming contradictions of no longer putting thimerisol in new
>vaccines, and allowing thimerisol to remain in current stock....how about
>looking at the joint statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the
>Public Health Service on July 7, 1999....
>http://www.altcorp.com/SlideShows/Thimerosal/sld015.htm
>
>"On the one hand, there is the known serious risk of diseases and deaths
>caused by failure to immunize our infants against vaccine-preventable
>infectious diseases; on the other, there is the unknown and probably much
>smaller risk, if any, of neuro-developmental effects posed by exposure to
>thimerosal."
>
>"The large risks of not vaccinating children far outweigh the unknown and
>probably much smaller risk, if any, of cumulative exposure to
>thimerosal-containing vaccines over the first six months of life."
>
> " Nevertheless, because any potential risk is of concern, the Public
>Health Service, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine
>manufacturers agree that thimerosal-containing vaccines should be removed as
>soon as possible."
Probert - is that a "pro-death" statement?
Mark Probert
"SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
news:6D5T8.86685$hF5.4...@news2.east.cox.net...
>
>
> "Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:afii02$esmcd$1...@ID-78438.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > "SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
> > news:0f2T8.86274$hF5.4...@news2.east.cox.net...
> > > ....While I am nowhere near "antivaccine", I have had enough concerns
> > about
> > > this to request that my sons' future shots be of the formula without
> > > thimerisol...
> >
> > Always a good idea to avoid whatever can be avoided. However, I do not
> think
> > that you have anything to be concerned abou.t Note the way the
anti-vaxers
> > are swtiching to ADHD...they need more fearmongering, as they are real
> short
> > on facts. All well designed studies (notably excluding Wakefield)
studies
> > point to no link.
>
>
> ....perhaps, but you have to admit that there are a lot of similarities in
> symptoms, especially in the HFA population. The way we describe it in my
> son (ADHD/gifted/aspergers) is "overlap", because there are many times
that
> we have to first determine which diagnosis is causing a particular problem
> before we can try to intervene...
>
> ...but I can also see your point in trying to "rouse more rabble"...
This has been the trend in the newsgroups which deal with vaccine issues for
a long time. When the antis finally see that they are not making headway
with one ploy, they switch routes, and come up with something else.
>
> >
> > Until a few years ago, I kept up a full complement of vaccinations for
> > myself. Many of them had Thimerosal.
>
>
> ....a few years ago. Did you stop carrying vaccines, or stop carrying
those
> with thimerisol?
I stopped getting the shots as they were no longer needed. My international
travel to some of the fun places I had been travelling to stopped. At that
time, there was no chice between Thimerosal free vaccines and those that
contained it. I tended to get the new shot a bit earlier as I have seen the
effects of several of the diseases. Back in the 1960's, before deploying to
Vietnam, we were required to have the Bubonic plague shot. Most of the guys
joked about it since the idea of plague being a problem was so remote from
our lives.
Six months after getting to Vietnam we werfe providing security for a MedCAP
and the medics found one boy who had Bubonic plague. He was the only one
alive who had it (died during evacuation).
I also recall friends not coming back to elementary school in September
because they were in an iron lung.
One of my closest friends from childhood watched his son during a bout of
memingits whtat would have been preventable if the HiB were available at the
time. My friend was a pediatric neurologist and was traumatized to the
extent that he was out of practice for five years. I recently heard from him
for the first time in years. He still is suffering.
.
> > >
> > > ....if there was any possibility that it was a factor in your child
> > > developing this, would you be asking such questions? ("the proof is
far
> > from
> > > conclusive"...it is also far from conclusive that this is *not* a
factor
> > in
> > > the substantial increase in autism either--why not continue to ask
> > > questions?)
> >
> > As far as I can see, there is no evidence to support a link. Having
> observe
> > the tactics and other blather of the proponents of a link, I doubt that
> > there is one, even more.
>
> Then we definately need more funds for research in why there seems to be
> such an explosion of autism at approximately the same time that our
infants
> and toddlers are receiving so many injections including this
> preservative....if this is not a factor, we need to find out what is.
This is one of the claims that the anti-vaxers like to toss out. First off,
the 'explosion' does not statistically follow any change in vaccine policy.
IOW, there has been no correlation between the 'explosion' in diagnosis of
autism and the 'explosion' in vaccination. Second, during this period of the
'explosion' IDEA really kicked in full blown and the schools had to start
looking real hard to see why kids were failing. Also during this period,
there was an 'explosion' in ADHD diagnosis, however, as you know, this
included many adults. Now the antis are claiming causality wrt ADHD. See the
pattern?
> I am unfamiliar with the specifics of what consitutes an epidemic...what
is
> the necessary "increase of incidence" for a condition to be called
> "epidemic"? And once classified as such, what actions are/should be
taken?
My grandparents died in an epidemic (actually, the 1919 flu pandemic). What
constitutes an epidemic? Ask those who are making the claim using this
inflammatory word.
> There are some who have noted that autism has risen 200-500% in many
> areas--and not just from new awareness
> http://www.autism.com/ari/editorials/autismincrease.html
Dr. Rimland. he routinely rejects *everything* that disagrees with him. Read
the discussions about some of his ideas in m.k.h. and see what he really
believes.
> Some place the increase even higher...
> http://osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/incidence.htm
>
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/autism/caus08.shtml
> "It's very difficult to estimate prevalence," Dawson said. "Twenty years
> ago, we said 4 or 5 out of 10,000. Today, we say 1 in 500 or 1,000." I
have
> not taken statistics, but these numbers are truly alarming...
>
>
> Just to put things in perspective...
> http://autism-society.org/news/chairmansautism02smallprint.pdf
> "That's good, but let's put that into perspective. At the same time the
NIH
> is
> spending 56 million dollars on autism - a condition that affects 1 in 250
> children in this country - they are investing over 2.2 billion dollars in
> AIDs
> research. The rates of diabetes increased by 49 percent between 1990 and
> 2000. Diabetes is a devastating condition in the Native American community
> and of increasing concern in the African American and pediatric
populations.
> This year, the NIH investment for diabetes is 688 million."
>
> ....while I do admit the paper has much about the question of
mercury...how
> does one justify the amount of research dollars on a condition that has
been
> increasing at such a high rate, when compared to other conditions?
Personally, I wish that there was more spent on finding the real cause of
autism. if it can be prevented or cured, great. However, when I encounter a
anti-vac liar, they often want more money spent on showing the allegedl link
to Thimerosal to be true. They are not interested in finding the real reson,
just support for their position.
>
> >
> > > I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we
> stop
> > > vaccinating our children....I did see a bit of a double standard of
what
> > is
> > > "precautionary" and what is not....
> > >
> > > I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future
stock,
> > but
> > > not with present stock...
> >
> > POLITICS.
> >
> > The fearmongering is having an effect. The rates of immunization have
> > dropped in some areas. Look at what happened in Idaho wrt Pertussis.
Same
> in
> > Spokane.
>
> ....is this addressing their taking out of future stock, or their
> inconsistancy in not also taking it out of the present stock?
AFAIAC< there is NO reason to take it out of present stock. Both my kids got
the original vaccines, and, if I had to do it again, I would do it just the
same way.
> > > Again, I say:
> > >
> > >
> > > I saw nowhere in this transcript any kind of request/demands that we
> stop
> > > vaccinating our children....I did see a bit of a double standard of
what
> > is
> > > "precautionary" and what is not....
> >
> > The transcript was only a part of the proceedings. many of the anti-vac
> > websites cite it, selectively, to support their position.
>
>
> ....this was on a forum at an *autism* website....(autism.about.com)...and
> posted by a member upon the request of others who had not a chance to
> see/hear the proceedings..
Again, it was only part of the proceedings. If you look at the speaker list,
you would see a definite bias in those who were selcted to speak.
> > > I, too, am wondering why precautions are being taken with future
stock,
> > but
> > > not with present stock...
> >
> > Because there is no real, medically demonstrable need, to take
precautions
> > at all.
>
> ....then why do it? I know, "politics"...but if they are so
> afraid/motivated, why only do a half-assed job?
Money for one thing. The other problem is that the poroduction of a new
vaccine in sufficient quatities may take a long time.
> > > When were these studies conducted, and how? Did they conclusively
show
> > that
> > > they are not a factor in autism?
> >
> > Conclusive? Noting is conclusive. However, they were done on several
> > different populations and have shown no link.
>
> ....*When*? This would imply what kind of research technology....and if
it
> was done *before* the sharp increase, that should alos be considered,
should
> it not?
It was done several times over several years, since the so called autism
explosion. They researchers looked at the demographics of several different
populations and found no link.
The CDC and the Institute of Medicine (http://www.iom.edu/) have reports.
> > They cannot absolutely rule
> > out a link, and readily acknowledge that. The anti-vac liars take that
as
> an
> > admission that there is a link.
>
> ....is there any reason why we have to have mercury injected into our
kids,
> when alternative vaccines are practical?
They have only recently become practical. BTW, it is not 'mercury' but a
compound of mercury. Not all mercury containing compounds are harmful. In
fact, there are homeopathic remedies made from mercury.
> > > Which is why I am not "antivaccine", but am "pro-safe vaccine"....I do
> not
> > > know if mercury poisoning had anything to do with my son's developing
> > > asperger's, but on the chance it might have, shouldn't I be able to
> ensure
> > > that he is not further exposed to it in his shots?
> >
> > Of course. However, there is no real need.
>
> ....then mercury is safe to inject? mercury is safe to be ingested?
> mercury is safe to be handled without gloves? Why was it removed from so
> many things years ago, then?
See above. There are mercury compounds that are highly toxic, and there are
mercury compounds that are safe to ingest.
> What is the effect of mercury on the human body?
It depends on the type of compound, how much is used, and the method of
administering. The efect ranges from nothing at all to fatal. Many things
follow the same pattern.
> >
> > >*I* know enough to
> > > request it (and had to go through some hoops to do so last Sep--the
base
> > had
> > > not heard of it, and had to "borrow" some from the city health
> > clinic....by
> > > the time he had his final shot of the series 6 months later, the base
> was
> > > fully stocked with thimerisol-free formulations---wonder why?)....
> >
> > The military is always the last to get this stuff. Takes forever in the
> > supply chian...
>
> ....ah, since the local base is now stocked with thimerisol-free vaccines,
> then that must mean that all of the civilian clinics have all
> thinerisol-free stock?
If not, they can order it upon request. Visit the CDC website for more info.
> That is not the implications from this transcript--it was stated that 2
more
> lots of thimerisol vaccines were still due to hit the shelves....
>
> >
> > > what about
> > > all those who do not...and end up having their children exposed to
> > existing
> > > (thimerisol included) stock-not to mention the next two lots (and how
> much
> > > *is* in a lot) that will be shipped...??
> >
> > I do not see a problem for them.
>
>
> ...would you also inject a child in your family with mercury if an
> alternative was available?
As I stated above, we did, I would do it again. The connection to the
dieseases is real, not hypothetical.
> >
> > > Please note again....those of us asking questions, asking that
> thimerisol
> > be
> > > eliminated from vaccines are not "antivaccines"-if were were, why only
> ask
> > > for this to be removed from the vaccines and not the vaccines
themselves
> > be
> > > removed (the only vaccines we are asking be removed are the ones with
> the
> > > thimerisol--after all, there must be some kind of concern about this
> since
> > > all future stock will not have it....if it is "safe enough to keep in
> > > current stock" why remove it from future stock? And if it is
considered
> > > "precautionary" to remove it from future stock, why allow the current
> > stock
> > > to keep it? I am confused by this double standard...are the future
kids
> > to
> > > be better protected than the ones we have now?)
> > > --
> >
> > There is nothing to protect them from.
>
>
> Then why all the double speak from the producers of the vaccines?
It is NOT the producers of the vaccines that are using doublespeak.
La Salope
>> ....is this addressing their taking out of future stock, or their
>> inconsistancy in not also taking it out of the present stock?
>
>AFAIAC< there is NO reason to take it out of present stock. Both my kids got
>the original vaccines, and, if I had to do it again, I would do it just the
>same way.
tsk... tsk....
--
IS THIS POST VISIBLE????
rogue-nothingbutnet- rogue-randori
These are the same person; nothingbutnet have denied him access,
but I have yet to receive a response from randori.com/silcon.com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/reports/old_reports/report970609.txt
malformed-parsons (was rogue-nothingbutnet & rogue-randori)
The nothingbutnet/randori canceller turned out to be Joe Parsons,
who was hand-cancelling in the alt.sex.stories groups. I've
been in contact with him.
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/reports/old_reports/report970609.txt
D. C. Sessions
> "SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
> news:6D5T8.86685$hF5.4...@news2.east.cox.net...
>> ....then mercury is safe to inject? mercury is safe to be ingested?
>> mercury is safe to be handled without gloves? Why was it removed from so
>> many things years ago, then?
>
> See above. There are mercury compounds that are highly toxic, and there are
> mercury compounds that are safe to ingest.
>
>> What is the effect of mercury on the human body?
>
> It depends on the type of compound, how much is used, and the method of
> administering. The efect ranges from nothing at all to fatal. Many things
> follow the same pattern.
Carbon + Nitrogen (CN) is cyanide.
I *really* don't advise avoiding carbon, nor nitrogen,
nor compounds containing both.
--
| It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance |
| It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance |
| It's the one who won't be taken who cannot seem to give |
| and the soul afraid of dyin' that never learns to live |
SumBuny
"Mark Probert" <mark_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:afpoab$get0l$1...@ID-78438.news.dfncis.de...
>
> AFAIAC< there is NO reason to take it out of present stock. Both my kids
got
> the original vaccines, and, if I had to do it again, I would do it just
the
> same way.
FWIW, both my kids (age 12 and 15) have had all of their shots as well..and
yes, I would "do it again" to ensure that they were protected...but since
last year, I have requested (and obtained) thinerisol-free formulations, and
will keep asking for such...much as those who are allergic to eggs have to
find an alternative vaccinne to the ones most commonly used that involve
eggs...now that I think of it, have you noticed how well informed the
population is to the fact that certain vaccinnes have been incubated in
eggs, because of the danger to a (relatively) few, so that they can look
into alternatives-and *not* merely to insist that all vaccinnes are
inherently dangerous (just certain chemicals in some of them)...why not do
the same with thimerisol?
> It was done several times over several years, since the so called autism
> explosion. They researchers looked at the demographics of several
different
> populations and found no link.
..."so called" autism explosion? A rise from what Hans Asperger himself
described as extremely rare, 1:10,000 to (in some areas) 1:250? Did you by
chance see the article in Wired called "The Geek Syndrome"?
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html
>
> They have only recently become practical. BTW, it is not 'mercury' but a
> compound of mercury. Not all mercury containing compounds are harmful. In
> fact, there are homeopathic remedies made from mercury.
....and this is one of those compounds of mercury that are not harmful?
>
> See above. There are mercury compounds that are highly toxic, and there
are
> mercury compounds that are safe to ingest.
...and thimerisol is....?
>
> > What is the effect of mercury on the human body?
>
> It depends on the type of compound, how much is used, and the method of
> administering. The efect ranges from nothing at all to fatal. Many things
> follow the same pattern.
fair enough-I guess I was rather vague in that question...
> >
> > ....ah, since the local base is now stocked with thimerisol-free
vaccines,
> > then that must mean that all of the civilian clinics have all
> > thinerisol-free stock?
>
> If not, they can order it upon request. Visit the CDC website for more
info.
...you know that, I know that...what we need to do is to make the public as
aware of that as they seem to be about vaccinnes involving eggs...
> >
> > ...would you also inject a child in your family with mercury if an
> > alternative was available?
>
> As I stated above, we did, I would do it again. The connection to the
> dieseases is real, not hypothetical.
I do not dispute that...I asked if you would inject your child with a
vaccinne containing thimeriso *if an alternative was available*...
>>> I am confused by this double standard...are the future
> kids
> > > to
> > > > be better protected than the ones we have now?)
> > > > --
> > >
> > > There is nothing to protect them from.
> >
> >
> > Then why all the double speak from the producers of the vaccines?
>
> It is NOT the producers of the vaccines that are using doublespeak.
So, if you had a child today that required a vaccine, and there was a choice
between one with thimerisol and one without...which would you choose?
I would (and have) chosen the one without the controversial additive...and
in erring on the side of caution, I hope to better protect my son from
disease *and* any increase in autistic symptoms...
--
Buny
-----" Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to
be normal." ~ Albert Camus
----- One Size does NOT fit all; Heck, one size don't even fit MOST!