Buteyko: Why you have asthma and how to fix it!
peter kolb
away, unfortunately for them and fortunately for the asthmatics, it
won’t. This is because Professor Buteyko’s theory has hit the
jackpot. Unconventional as it is, his treatment is the one that
works for all asthmatics.
Contrary to the rantings of a few loud-mouths on this group,
virtually all the elements of Professor Buteyko’s theory are supported
in the medical literature. The theory also makes a lot of common
sense.
Professor Buteyko’s claim, for the uninitiated, is that the reason you
have asthma is that you breathe too much. In other words, it is
associated with what is well known in medicine: chronic
hyperventilation syndrome (CHS). Some of the symptoms of CHS are as
follows: (They can occur singly or together in clusters.)
asthma
breathlessness
lightheadedness or dizziness
headache
blurred vision
giddiness
confusion
impaired concentration
palpitations
tachycardia (racing heart)
syncope (circulatory collapse resulting in fainting)
dyspnea (breathing difficulties or distress in breathing]
sighing and yawning
frequent throat clearing
pronounced fatigue and exercise intolerance [possibly CFS?]
weakness
sleep disturbance
sensation of feeling cold
excessive sweating
chest pain (various)
aching under left breast
paresthesia (abnormal spontaneous sensations such as burning,
pricking, numbness (anywhere)
tremors
myalgia (muscular pain)
cramps
tetany (intermittent painful muscle contraction)
aerophagia (swallowing of air)
globus hystericus (feeling of throat constriction)
belching
flatus (gas in the stomach)
dry mouth
bloating
dysphagia (difficulty in swallowing)
nausea
abdominal discomfort
anxiety
tension
depersonalization
phobias (fears)
panic attacks
Now I didn’t make up this list. It appears in the medical literature.
The above list comes from the following sources (1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
6)(see below), but it could equally have come from any number of
other papers and text books on Hyperventilation syndrome.
Nixon’s paper (6) is particularly good at explaining CHS. Kazarinov
has detailed the biochemical basis for these disorders (7).
Guyton(11), Nixon(6) and Innocenti(9) explain the accommodation
process by which the hyperventilation sustains itself.
The problem with western medical practice is that doctors often fail
to diagnose CHS (eg.: 1,3,6). Cluff (5) claims that *most* patients
breathe too much so that CO2 is consistently below the normal
range(PaCO2 < 36mmHg). This means that you can often be given the
run around and go from one doctor to another and never find out why it
is that you have these strange, seemingly unrelated symptoms. And
even if you’re lucky enough to have it diagnosed, they’ll try to
treat it simply with reassurance and explanation.
Professor Buteyko, on the other hand, having clearly understood the
physiological mechanism by which this happens, has refined CHS
treatment to a fine art. By practicing reduced breathing several
times a day over several months you can reverse the disorder and
reset your respiratory “thermostat” to pace your breathing at a more
healthy CO2 level. You should notice improvement from the first day.
Bronchodilators are frequently discontinued even after the first
exercise.
The way hyperventilation syndrome is diagnosed is quite simple. They
first try to rule out anything else and then they administer the
hyperventilation provocation test. This means that you deliberately
hyperventilate to try to induce the symptom. If the symptom appears
under the provocation test, then hyperventilation is a likely cause
of the problem.
Now, you don’t need your doctor to tell you that you, as an asthmatic
can set off an asthma attack just by blowing up a balloon or laughing
at some really funny jokes..... That’s all equivalent to a
hyperventilation provocation test.
I think even Professor Buteyko’s worst enemies would have difficulty
countering the elegant arguments on how low CO2 accounts for
bronchospasm (12). What is a little harder to explain is how the
inflammatory allergic response seen in asthmatic lungs can be
attributed to over-breathing.
The seemingly unrelated symptoms due to CHS given in the list above
should give some indication of the extent of body function impairment
that can be expected from over-breathing. Again, Nixon’s article (6)
gives much insight into the physiological effect of hyperventilation
and is well worth reading. Kontos (10) showed that over-breathing
increases circulating histamine. Even the adrenal glands that produce
Cortisol are affected (6) by over breathing. Cortisol is the natural
cortisone that the body produces to slow down the immune response. It
should, therefore, come as no surprize that hyperventilators could be
more susceptible to allergens.
Incidentally, it is interesting to note that the symptoms of Chronic
Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) are just a subset of CHS. Buteyko treatment
is equally as effective for CFS, but harder to implement.
So why do some people get asthma, others get CFS and still others get
digestive problems, anxiety attacks, heart attacks??? Professor
Buteyko reckons it depends on your genetic predisposition. This would
make sense given the varied symptoms in the CHS list.
Feel free to browse our web site (see below). You can experiment with
the exercises for nothing, join a support group also for nothing or
find a Buteyko practitioner who will help you get rid of your asthma.
If you find it doesn’t work for you, please let me know and also make
sure you claim your refund. The treatment carries a money-back
guarantee.
PS I have no commercial interest in any therapy.
Peter Kolb BSc(Eng), MSc(Med), CPEng(Biomed)
Biomedical Engineer
--------------
References:
1. Wheatley CE: “Hyperventilation syndrome, a frequent cause of chest
pain”, CHEST,68:2, August 1975, pp195-199
2. Neill WA, Hattenhauer M: “Impairment of myocardial O2 Supply due
to Hyperventilation”, Circulation, V52, November 1975 pp854-858
3. Sher TH: “Recurrent chest tightness in a 28-year-old woman”, ANNALS
OF ALLERGY, Vol 67, September 1991, pp310 - 314.
4. Bass C: “The hyperventilation syndrome”, Respiratory Disease in
Practice, October/November 1990, pp13-16.
5. Cluff RA: “Chronic hyperventilation and its treatement by
physiotherapy: discussion paper.” Journal of the Royal Society of
Medicine Vol 77, October 1984, pp 855-862
6. Nixon PGF, “Hyperventilation and Cardiac Symptoms”, Internal
Medicine for the Specialist: Vol 10 No 12, December 1989, pp 67-84.
7. Kazarinov VA 1990. The biochemical basis of KP Buteyko's theory of
the disease of deep respiration. pp198-218 from Buteyko KP. Buteyko
Method Ref. 8(in Russian) (in English from http://www.wt.
com.au/~pkolb/but_pap.htm)
8. Buteyko KP. Buteyko Method: the experience of implementation in
medical practice. Kiev, Moscow, Novosibirsk. Patriot Press, Moscow
1990. (in Russian)
9. Innocenti DM. 1993. Physiotherapy for respiratory and cardiac
problems. Hyperventilation Ch 18. pp377-387. Ed by Webber BA and Pryor
JA. Edinburgh; Churchill Livingstone
10. Kontos HA, Richardson DW, Raper A J, et al. Mechanisms of action
of hypocapnic alkalosis on limb blood vessels in man and dog. Am J
Physiol 1972; 223:1296-1307
12. Vander A, Sherman J, Luciano D. 1990 Human Physiology. p.438
International edition (5thEd.) McGraw- Hill Publishing Company, New
York.
_________________________
FREE INFORMATION ON BUTEYKO'S CURE FOR ASTHMA PROVIDED
BY GRATEFUL EX-ASTHMATICS:
Simon Fearby
asthmatics to breathe properly,avoiding laryngeal problems which compounds
the problems multifold when an asthmatic is wheezing and
hyperventilating.Regular exercise will do the same.People aren't so keen to
exercise though because it takes a bit of effort...............
peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote in message
news:7pomnm$645$1...@quokka.wn.com.au...
ScoobyRCP
medicine, nor do you have any real clinical, first-hand experience treating
patients with a respiratory disease. Despite this you not only continue to
spout tons of words, but you also fail to provide evidence of direct,
controlled, double-blinded studies that will either attest to the efficacy, or
BS of this nonsense.
You, sir, are irresponsible. The challenge has been given before, and you have
yet to provide us with serious research on this matter. What you have given us
is:
1. Evidence of one trial in which blinding was broken, and the investigators
failed to live up to established scientific standards of publication (ie lying)
2. You have provided us with outdated material. It is generally accepted that
certain material, more than just a few years old scientifically, is
questionable. Example: The fact that we all have white blood cells is a
fact.....their role in the disease and immunology is ever evolving as science
provided new methods with which to study their function.
Now then......why don't you go back to your little newsgroup and work on
convincing someone to do a nice little-study on the benefits of this crock of
bovine-feces. The fact that folks will say it works for them is simply a
manifestation of the placebo-effect at this point.....NOT one of disease
reversal. These folks who believe strongly in this method will also most
likely NOT admit it's failure here in this newsgroup, and fail it will since it
does not TREAT any of the real underlying etiology.....and hyperventilation is
NOT one of the etiologies of asthma.
Scooby
RCP, EMT-P
Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist
This mail is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and
grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to
be considered flaws or defects.
Colin Campbell
>Much as the old timers on this group would like to see Buteyko go
>away, unfortunately for them and fortunately for the asthmatics, it
>won’t. This is because Professor Buteyko’s theory has hit the
>jackpot. Unconventional as it is, his treatment is the one that
>works for all asthmatics.
Incorrect. All we would like is for you to provide a balanced and
honest assessment. All we get from you is misrepresentations of fact.
>
>Contrary to the rantings of a few loud-mouths on this group,
>virtually all the elements of Professor Buteyko’s theory are supported
>in the medical literature. The theory also makes a lot of common
>sense.
Of course in order to accept Buteyko's writings you have to ignore
everything that has been demonstrated to be fact about asthma.
>
>Professor Buteyko’s claim, for the uninitiated, is that the reason you
>have asthma is that you breathe too much.
A claim that has never been validated. A claim that has never been
modified to account for all the scientific discoveries into the nature
of asthma that have occurred since he made it up.
> In other words, it is
>associated with what is well known in medicine: chronic
>hyperventilation syndrome (CHS). Some of the symptoms of CHS are as
>follows: (They can occur singly or together in clusters.)
Actually it is 'hyperventilation syndrome.' Which (as you are well
aware) is a psychological disorder. Asthma on the other hand is an
inflammatory disease of the airways.
I really wish that you would cease making claims that you know are
untrue.
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea --
massive, diffucult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
Gene Spafford 1992
C.A. Owens
>Much as the old timers on this group would like to see Buteyko go
>away,
No. I just like to see a good theoretical basis backed by some
clinical evidence. You don't have either.
Chris Owens
peter kolb
scoo...@aol.com (ScoobyRCP) wrote:
>The problem with you sir is that you have neither a license to practice
>medicine, nor do you have any real clinical, first-hand experience treating
>patients with a respiratory disease.
No, but I'll tell you a little bit about my experience.
I have experience of taking care of my little boy. I have experienced
being woken up in the middle of the night by a child in tears, unable
to breath, coughing his little lungs out. I've had to stand over him
in the middle of the night shoving one load of chemicals after another
down his throat. I've had to stand by and watch helplessly as his
body heaved and shook as he inhaled one load of Ventolin after
another. I've experienced his frantic cries during those terrible
trips to the ER. You can be dispassionate about your patients. I
experienced this trauma with my own child and the memory still haunts
me. Even as I write this I have to fight back the tears.
For over ten years I put my trust in you guys. May God forgive me for
that! I usually try to hide it, but let me tell you something Dr.
Scooby, I'm angry!
Alex's desperate condition turned around the day he started Buteyko
treatment. From the first lesson he learned to control his attacks
without Ventolin. He never touched the stuff again. Three months
later he was off all steroids and had no more asthma attacks. Today,
some five year later, he is a healthy, strong young man, not crippled
by disease and chemicals. He has no trace of asthma, thanks to
Buteyko.
Now instead of pontificating to us what a clever doctor you are, why
don't you get off your high horse and INVESTIGATE this phenomenon.
When did you last diagnose chronic hyperventilation syndrome in a
patient? When did you last even read about CHS?
> Despite this you not only continue to
>spout tons of words, but you also fail to provide evidence of direct,
>controlled, double-blinded studies that will either attest to the efficacy, or
>BS of this nonsense.
OK, the results of the Brisbane trial took four years to publish.
Let's add another year for the planning, collecting patients,
collecting funding, passing by ethics committees etc.etc. Another
year for discussing the results and planning more trials would also be
appropriate and we end up with a delay of six years. . As we speak
there are trials being planned and under way following publication of
the first trial. In Australia we lose around 700 patients a year to
asthma. In the UK around 2000 and I guess in the States it would be
over 10,000 doing some simple extrapolation. So before the next
results have been debated, some 76,000 asthmatics will be dead in
just three countries, not to mention the millions debilitated by this
dreadful disease. This does'nt include those who *might* die from
side effects of the drugs you give them.
So while you guys are having an intellectual wank for another six
years, I'm telling the people on this group about my experience and
what I understand about the treatment in the hope that some will take
note and help their little kids. That's what this ng is supposed to
be here for. If you guys have all the answers, how come are there so
many people looking for alternatives on this group?
>You, sir, are irresponsible.
Aw, go away!
>The challenge has been given before, and you have
>yet to provide us with serious research on this matter. What you have given us
>is:
>1. Evidence of one trial in which blinding was broken, and the investigators
>failed to live up to established scientific standards of publication (ie lying)
The reason blinding was broken was that one treatment was effective
and the other wasn't. It did'nt take the patients long to find out
what worked and what did'nt. If both treatments had been equally
ineffective, blinding would not have been an issue.
The consequence is that we will never be able to have a trial that
satisfies you, becasue it is impossible to maintain blinding with such
an effective treatment.
>2. You have provided us with outdated material. It is generally accepted that
>certain material, more than just a few years old scientifically, is
>questionable.
Great! So every few years you guys change your minds. In another few
years you'll have changed your minds again and tell us everything you
told us now was garbage! That does'nt instill me with much confidence
that it's even worth bothering readng medical literature.
>Now then......why don't you go back to your little newsgroup and work on
>convincing someone to do a nice little-study on the benefits of this crock of
>bovine-feces.
On what basis do you call it a crock of bovine-feces? And what do
cattle have to do with it anyway? What part of Buteyko's theory do
you have trouble with?
> The fact that folks will say it works for them is simply a
>manifestation of the placebo-effect at this point.....NOT one of disease
>reversal.
OK, folks, what we have here is classical medical dogma. The
ultimate authority has declared it to be placebo, so that's the last
word on it!
You have no idea how the placebo effect works! You just blindly
accept it and believe in it. But I can tell you exactly the
physiological basis of Buteyko's theory and why it is that the
treatment that his theory produced works so well. In fact, Buteyko's
theory even explains the placebo effect. You also can't tell me why
it has taken over ten years for the placebo effect to kick in with my
little kid. In fact the Brisbane trial patients had asthma on average
for 23 years. How come they only experienced the placebo effect when
somebody told them the most unbelievable thing of all, that they were
just breathing too much? It's so unbelievable people on this group
won't even try it for FREE! You don't seem to understand that you
have to believe in something for the placebo effect to work.
>These folks who believe strongly in this method will also most
>likely NOT admit it's failure here in this newsgroup, and fail it will since it
>does not TREAT any of the real underlying etiology..and hyperventilation is
>NOT one of the etiologies of asthma.
I would just love to know how and why over the last five years my kid
has successfully fooled me into believing he does'nt have asthma
anymore!
Is there someone out there who has something intelligent to say on
this subject??
By the way, I would like to unreservedly apologise to all the good
doctors out there whom I have offended with the above comments. I
know there are a lot of good guys among you who are genuinely
interested in your patients. It's not your fault the medical system
is so rotten.
Peter Kolb
Biomedical Engineer
ScoobyRCP
The problem I have with your load of crap is that you tout it as a "cure" and
lead people to believe that their medication useage will decrease when in many
cases that is NOT the case. You have nothing to offer except your anecdotal
remarks. While I sympathize with the plight of your son, and all the others
who suffer with asthma, I am NOT willing to sit by and watch something being
touted as a cure.
As for your sojn being off medications, I would love to challenge you to prove
it is really the "method" that provided the "cure" or whether it is simply that
as he grew so did his airways and therefore an increase in the intralumenal
diameter which lessens the severity of most all childhood respiratory
illnesses. There are many kids who "grow out" of their asthma by this simple
process of maturation and they have never used your "method".
I have done the research, and so have many others. We have seen the postings,
we have seen the websites, what we have NOT seen are the factual, scientifc
principles of research offered. You mentioned trials being planned. Why don't
you provide us with the names of the investigators and institutions where the
studies are to be performed.
As for your remarks regarding the blinding being broken during the last study,
you conveniently failed to comment on the fact that the investigators failed to
uphold scientific standards by lying and ruling out certain individuals which
skewed the intial results. If indeed this study was so remarkable then I am
sure I would have seen a great deal of follow-up with other scientific
journals.......none that I can find! Not even the non-physician based
scientific journals. Wonder what excuse you can offer here?
From the outset there has been an air of dishonesty asscociated with your
so-called method. It is for that reason you are not accepted by the scientific
and medical communities. Your "method" is NOT a cure, and the resultant
plecebo-effect that some folks may enjoy will not last as asthma is a CHRONIC
INFLAMMATORY disease and as such only worsens with time. It IS NOT a disease
of "breathing too much".
You continue posting here despite your own group so I guess you'll have to deal
with the the commentary and the challenges. When you want to produce the
information I (and many others) have requested, then perhaps we'll have a new
view of you. Until then you are still promoting a "treatment" which has the
potential to adversely effect the health and well-being of others......and to
that end I will challenge you and any other supporter.
Mike
As a long,long time lurker and an occasional poster.It would seem
to me If It was a disease of breathing too much, a brown paper bag placed
over the nose and mouth would work just as well.
Please correct me If I am wrong...............
Regards,
Mike.......................
" I always do what the voices in my head tell me."
ScoobyRCP <scoo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990823115204...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
peter kolb
I'm not going to go over all of Scooby's diatribe. I'll just comment
on a few points for the last time and then leave him to rage on.
scoo...@aol.com (ScoobyRCP) wrote:
>First of all I am NOT a physician, I AM a Respiratory Therapist WITH asthma.
I apologise to all the doctors out there. Scooby calls himself a
respiratory specialist. In all the countries I've lived a respiratory
specialist is a specialist doctor.
<snip crap>
>As for your sojn being off medications, I would love to challenge you to prove
>it is really the "method" that provided the "cure" or whether it is simply that
>as he grew so did his airways and therefore an increase in the intralumenal
>diameter which lessens the severity of most all childhood respiratory
>illnesses. There are many kids who "grow out" of their asthma by this simple
>process of maturation and they have never used your "method".
This is the stuff we get all the time from the uninformed. They
pontificate and lecture to us without doing any research. Infact
Scooby here has'nt even bothered to read my post properly. I clearly
stated that my son's transformation came on the day he started the
course. He found he could overcome asthma attacks with the exercises
he was taught by a Buteyko therapist. Even if his airways had jumped
in diameter overnight as Scooby would have us believe, it still
does'nt explain how he was able to overcome attacks which persisted
for a few weeks. Without flinching an eye, Professor Ivan Young
(respiratory specialist) proclaimed that all of the five severe
asthmatics (kids & adults) he followed through a Buteyko class had
spontaneously improved during the same week, not because of Buteyko
therapy they were undergoing, but through sheer chance plus the
Placebo effect. You and Ivan might believe in fairies, I don't.
>I have done the research, and so have many others. We have seen the postings,
>we have seen the websites, what we have NOT seen are the factual, scientifc
>principles of research offered. You mentioned trials being planned. Why don't
>you provide us with the names of the investigators and institutions where the
>studies are to be performed.
Come on Scooby, you know full well how jealously pre-published
research is guarded. You'll hear about them in the fullness of time.
>As for your remarks regarding the blinding being broken during the last study,
>you conveniently failed to comment on the fact that the investigators failed to
>uphold scientific standards by lying and ruling out certain individuals which
>skewed the intial results.
No they did'nt lie. I defy you to tell me what they lied about.
Accusing the top Australian respiratory specialists of lying is a
serious charge. It's also defamatory. I hope they sue you for that.
They also did not set out to skew results. They virtually ignored the
Buteyko mechanism and failed to include some information that was
favourable to Buteyko in the discussion, but they certainly did not
lie and they certainly did not cheat.
They were also surprized by their own results.
> If indeed this study was so remarkable then I am
>sure I would have seen a great deal of follow-up with other scientific
>journals.......none that I can find! Not even the non-physician based
>scientific journals. Wonder what excuse you can offer here?
As with helicobacter, Journals are just refusing to publish
pro-Buteyko stuff. It's too controversial. But then there's nothing
new in that. It's also one of the weaknesses of the so called
peer-reviewed process. If something is a little controversial none of
the peers will stick their necks out and support it, no matter how
good the science. Drs. Barry Marshall and Robin Warren could tell you
all about that.
>From the outset there has been an air of dishonesty asscociated with your
>so-called method. It is for that reason you are not accepted by the scientific
>and medical communities.
Firstly it's not "my method". It's professor Buteyko's method.
Secondly, I have nothing to gain from this stuff so I don't
understand why I should be dishonest. I also don't really care
whether the medical community accepts me or not. In Russia the
medical community was eventually forced to accept Buteyko therapy
because Buteyko's grateful patients staged a revolt. In fact, there
has been pressure on the asthma foundations from the public and the
media here in Australia, and I understand that is why they had to
support the Brisbane trial. I suspect they were hoping to sink the
treatment once and for all and then were embarrassed by the good
results.
> Your "method" is NOT a cure, and the resultant
>plecebo-effect that some folks may enjoy will not last as asthma is a CHRONIC
>INFLAMMATORY disease and as such only worsens with time. It IS NOT a disease
>of "breathing too much".
Give me some Science, not medical dogma.
<snip crap>
>Scooby
>RCP, EMT-P
peter kolb
>Hi All,
> As a long,long time lurker and an occasional poster.It would seem
>to me If It was a disease of breathing too much, a brown paper bag placed
>over the nose and mouth would work just as well.
>Please correct me If I am wrong...............
>Regards,
>Mike.......................
Hi Mike
This is a good question and comes up all the time. The paper bag
routine is used for acute episodes of hyperventilation but is no good
at curing the chronic problem or an asthma attack. By the time a full
blown attack developes the patient is already short of oxygen so the
last thing you would want to do is deprive him of more oxygen by
breathing into a bag. It might be useful if you can catch the attack
very early, because breath holding exercises are used in Buteyko
therapy to break an attack. But then you might aswell fix your
breathing and do the job properly.
What would almost certainly help is if you could replace some of the
nitrogen in the air mix with Carbon Dioxide. CO2 is a well know
smooth muscle relaxant and therefore bronchodilator. In fact
anesthetists (anesthesiologists) whose job it is to keep patients
alive during an operation, take their CO2 levels very seriously. CO2
used to be used in ER's but the practice has fallen out of fashion.
Why bother with CO2 when a squirt of Ventolin will do?
As far as chronic hyperventilation is concerned (habituated
hyperventilation as discussed in some of the references I gave at the
origin of this thread), A paper bag is no solution either. In these
cases the body's breathing is paced to achieve a level of blood CO2
which is below normal. Momentary increases in CO2 would just result
in increased breathing. The only way around the problem is to
gradually retrain yourself to live with higher levels of CO2. In other
words, the respiratory center has to be reset to accept higher levels
of CO2 as normal. This rehabituation process takes time and patience.
It can also be a difficult process. Fortunately Buteyko therapy is
here to help with this process.
Best wishes
Peter
C.A. Owens
>>The problem with you sir is that you have neither a license to practice
>>medicine, nor do you have any real clinical, first-hand experience treating
>>patients with a respiratory disease.
>
>No, but I'll tell you a little bit about my experience.
With all due respect, you haven't the faintest idea whether your son
got better because of Buteyko, or because most children DO get better
as they grow. Now, would you care to ashcan the anecdotes and post
some real DATA?
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
wrote:
>Hi All,
> As a long,long time lurker and an occasional poster.It would seem
>to me If It was a disease of breathing too much, a brown paper bag placed
>over the nose and mouth would work just as well.
>Please correct me If I am wrong...............
ROFL! You are EXACTLY right!
Chris Owens
lcs Mixmaster Remailer
http://www.accc.gov.au/
____________________________________________________
"Let me also assure you that Buteyko has nothing but contempt for
western medicine and is not interested in appeasing anyone."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"You're implication that Buteyko practitioners practice medicine
reflects a stunning degree of naivety and misinformation."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
____________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 05:45:11 0800 (WST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.1999081...@mail.wt.com.au>
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Hello Janet
I've just sent a reply concerning this quote under the "Please Help me"
thread.
I'm afraid there is nothing we can do about mischief making, it happens
everywhere. If we had an infinite amount of time we could go in there and
just turn all these quotes to our advantage.
I'm sure the archives fill a useful role and while I wasn't even aware of
them until recently, I'd be sorry to see them go. If we were concerned
about people quoting us out of context, then we really need to shut this
list down completely and not talk about Buteyko at all anymore.
The purpose of our activity on a.s.a. is to inform asthmatics about Buteyko,
and to this extent I'm sure we've been hugely successful. Arguments with
CBI, CO, CC etc. can't be won even with logic and plain fact. There is no
answer to bigotry. But sometimes the absurd replies we get from these
people offer us opportunities to project Buteyko therapy to the people who
count, such as those who have given up on conventional medication and are
desperate. We've all been there ourselves, me included. a.s.a is a
support group for those in need. Buteyko therapy is bigger than any of
those characters and can weather the storm in the long run. So pleae, folks,
don't lose heart over the tactics of spoilers. My advice would be not to let
it get at you and carry on regardless.
Peter
____________________________________________________
"I'm fundamentally an electronic engineer. I just do R&D work full time,
developing electonic/mechanical/ computer equipment for,the hospital."
Dec 1998 Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Well, I'm afraid this is where I'm an expert and you're not. I'm
afraid the science of measurement is one in which I am particularly
competent (and qualified) because that is what engineers do for a
living. And as a Biomedical enigneer I am particularly competent at
commenting on biomedical measurements."
Dec 1998 Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I have a bachelors degree in engineering science and a masters degree
in medical science. I am registered here as a chartered professional
Biomedical Engineer."
May 1998 Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"A Bachelor's degree in Engineering Science, followed by a Masters in
medical Science. Included in the Masters course is a full year of
Phyisology (including Histology, experimental physiology etc...) We
even spent six months dissecting a cadaver. I did an additional year
of Chemistry, including Biochemistry, Botany and Zoology.
The philosophical differences between an Engineering and a medical
education is that as Scientists Engineers are taught to question,
while medics tend to follow the big guru."
April 1998 Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"You must be joking!
Apart from an annual dip, I don't read a.s.a. any more.
I find it too depressing."
Jun 1999 Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
____________________________________________________
"After all, it seems like HIV was spread to the human race
by Polio vaccines prepared in chopped up monkey kidneys."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
____________________________________________________
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
From: Patti
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:04:03
I practiced Buteyko as diligently as I was able for 1 year according to the
Stark and original Russian protocol, and derived very little actual benefit
overall. I was never able to reduce any of my medications. Buteyko did give
me the illusion that I was able to exercise when I was in fact very ill, and
I subsequently crashed with CFS caused by mercury poisoning and became
unable to support myself. BTW at that point I really *did* develop a
cortisol deficit.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:56:09 +0800 (WST)
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
! I practiced Buteyko as diligently as I was able for 1 year according
! to the Stark and original Russian protocol, and derived very little
! actual benefit overall.
Yes, Patty, I agree that you have had a difficult time with Buteyko, and I
have no doubt that your analysis on Mercury poisoning is correct. But I
think you are a very rare exception and the overwhelming majority of
asthmatics who have an asthma problem can heal themselves with Buteyko
therapy.
! The original discussion had nothing to do with whether or not someone
! was practicing the correct technique. It really makes me rub my
! temples in frustration when Buteyko advocates hide behind questions or
! criticism with the argument "If it is not working for you, you are
! doing it wrong."
Patty, the point I was trying to make, and which I obviously made very
badly, was that Buteyko treatment is very hard to sustain.
You are undoubtedly right. There will be asthmatics with other problems as
your case has revealed. And no amount of Buteyko breathing alone will get
rid of your asthma. These other problems too have to be attended to.
And I dare say that adults with a long history of asthma
may never get their immune system working properly again.
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! The way I recall it
"Aidan has had a huge set-back. But he has not had the benefit of proper
Buteyko tuition. He has also chosen to take only that part which he
likes.."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
From: Aidan
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:24:24 +0100
Message-Id: <1998111608...@hs2114.wdf.sap-ag.de>
Hello all,
I had a difficult time at the weekend, when I went to stay with a
friend on a farm in Bavaria. I arrived without a trace of asthma and
also without my ventolin, which I don't normally carry with me anymore
- the last time I used it was when I visited my folks in England
in May this year. I left gasping with asthma. Here's the story.
I noticed that the duvet on my guest bed had feathers in but I thought
I'd risk it. The first night was fine, I slept like a log, so I
assumed I'd cracked it - feathers are normally one of the worst
allergens for me. The second night I woke a little early wheezing
but seemed to more or less bring it under control with a bit of
Buteyko. Whereas the first day had been mostly spent visiting a
nearby town, during the second day we spent some time in the farmhouse
kitchen - with a cat. My asthma deteriorated during the second day,
worsened by a visit to a nearby riding stable (horses, another
allergen, if lesser than the others). Despite determined attempts
to use Buteyko, I lost it from this point. The third night was
impossible, 4 hours wheezy sleep and severe disabling attacks with
sneezing and the whole works. I had to leave early the next morning -
either that or go to the emergency doctor and get dosed up with god
knows what.
Only now, 24 hours after leaving the farm, do I feel like it's
really getting better. So that's the usual "biological inhalant
sensitivities" that John Mansfield identifies that laid me low, despite
being asthma-free on arrival and despite avoiding my key food allergens
during my stay (i.e. wheat and dairy products):
- feathers
- cats
- horses
- house-dust mites (the mattress and carpet were almost certainly
full of these)
Does anybody else suffer a similar "away from home" syndrome? It makes
visiting people difficult. It's all the more discouraging because I've
normally got the symptoms so well under control in my day-to-day life.
To be honest, Buteyko wasn't a fat lot of use. My control pause
plummeted to 10 seconds or less (was around the usual 30-45 secs on
arrival). I could only crank it up to around 15 seconds but the
effect seemed to only last a few minutes.
Any support appreciated, particularly experience with neutralization
against specific allergens such as the ones listed above. I now have
my doubts that Buteyko can really help protectively in the face of
such a determined onslaught.
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
"If whatever we present on the page does'nt work for someone, we have no
way of providing back-up. It is an essential element of Buteyko practice to
have follow-up expertise available when you need it."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
JLS
"Eventually my breathing seemed to get worse when doing the exercises
(which my teacher warned of) and I dropped the practice."
"I'm sorry to hear that you dropped practicing Buteyko breathing."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Susan
Despite 2 years of Buteyko, my allergies have not improved and I never
go to anyone's house without my inhaler because of similar circumstances
as yours.
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:58:09 +0800 (WST)
I don't think you are alone, Anne. I doubt whether there are many people
around who take Buteyko exercises to their conclusion. I would guess that
most would advance their asthma till they are comfortable and then maybe
even put up with the odd shot of ventolin once every few months!
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Message-Id: <1999012801...@mail.cgocable.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:12:32 -0800
Hi all,
After four months of varying success with Buteyko, I think I have
been defeated. It seems that my asthma flares unless I add CP's to
my program but when I do that my bloodpressure rises steadily. I
have struggled and practiced so hard for these months and most of
all, felt so freed by the success, that I feel so discouraged tonight.
I am off to work in an orphanage in the west indies for a month and
do not want to be worrying about hypertension which is a monster I
am not familiar with whereas the asthma I have known for about 35
years. Maybe if an instructor ever comes to Ontario, Canada I will
find out just what aspect I am missing but until then I admit defeat.
Unfortunately now I know all the good things about the method and I
know all the bad things about the medicines and that leaves me in a
more frightened position then I was before I found Buteyko. I wish
you all continued success and may your inhalers all expire while still
full!!! Yours, Vicki
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:19:27 +0800 (WST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.1998082...@mail.wt.com.au>
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Posting from Nicolas 3...maximum pause
On the other hand, I understand that there have been a few scares here in
Australia.
I'm not certain of the details, but I believe there may even have been an
asthma death for which the Maximum Pause has been blamed. Whatever
the incident was, it seems to have sent shockwaves through the Buteyko
community and hence the reticence to use it among some practitioners.
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:06:35 +0800 (WST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.1999042...@mail.wt.com.au>From: peter
kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Re: Questions, questions... CP, MP, Pulse, Exercise
No, you should'nt feel exhausted, in fact you should feel quite good.
Maximum pauses are not necessarily good. Apparently Buteyko has said
they can break the respiratory center and make your breathing worse....
permanently.
Your pounding heart is a bit of a worry. Remember, if you have any heart
problem at all you should'nt be doing MP's.
! ! ! aug 13 1999 peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:48:46 +0800 (WST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.1999033...@mail.wt.com.au>
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Steroid reduction; Scope....
Sender: owner-b...@lists.lrz-muenchen.de
But treatment for some of the other disorders can be very dangerous,
specifically for diabetes. Diabetics can go into shock from biochemical
changes brought about by just closing your mouth and breathing through
your nose. People with high blood pressure doing pauses can
actually increase blood pressure during the Buteyko exercises
because the system goes unstable.
____________________________________________________
! ! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! I hope you'll excuse me, but I really don't have the time or patience
! ! to clarify all the other points quoted out of context..
"They have demanded explanations of statements attributed to me
by the media, most statements of which have been distorted and
taken out of context."
Pauline Hanson
____________________________________________________
"After all, it seems like HIV was spread to the human race
by Polio vaccines prepared in chopped up monkey kidneys."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
"Buteyko is effective in combatting cancer should come as no surprize."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
Buteyko
|
"I can't imagine why it should'nt work for everyone."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"We do hear stories from time to time about people anxious to go off
all drugs suddenly ending up in the emergency room."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"The DIY approach does'nt always work, depending on your condition.
For example, you can become very unstable and not know why."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"DIY is not for everybody. By now you should be pretty much off your
bronchodilators. There are a lot of subtleties involved in Buteyko therapy
which makes it unlike any other treatment. If you don't recover properly
after a CP, or you're not doing your shallow breathing correctly, you might
be struggling unnecessarily. In fact, it is quite possible to make your
breathing worse if you're doing something wrong."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Some of the DIY (self-help) kits may not make it clear that DIY is not
recommended for people with asthma complicated by angina, diabetes,
epilepsy and other major illnesses."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"But treatment for some of the other disorders can be very dangerous,
specifically for diabetes. Diabetics can go into shock from biochemical
changes brought about by just closing your mouth and breathing through your
nose. People with high blood pressure doing pauses can actually increase
blood pressure during the Buteyko exercises because the system goes
unstable."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"No, you should'nt feel exhausted, in fact you should feel quite good.
Maximum pauses are not necessarily good. Apparently Buteyko has said they
can break the respiratory center and make your breathing worse....
permanently. They help in certain situations for certain individuals
depending on many factors. So those of you playing around with maximum
pauses, be warned!"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I can't imagine how mouth taping could cause a fit, but epilepsy has
been associated with low CO2. The only thing to be careful of, according
to an expert Buteyko practitioner, is that if you have a tendency to
having fits or you go to sleep drunk, then you should'nt tape your mouth.
This is not because it causes a fit, but because you may need to vomit
and while having a fit you would'nt be able to remove the tape."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I believe there may even have been an asthma death for which the
Maximum Pause has been blamed."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Now the people that are being grilled over the Buteyko theory,
including me, are no experts in asthma."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I want to make it absolutely clear that I have nothing against medical
doctors and most of them are sincerely doing what they believe to be
right."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"This intransigence on the part of the medical community is presenting an
excellent window of opportunity for studying what is wrong with medicine.
Seeing it in a historical context, I can't say I'm surprized, but I find it
all fascinatingly interesting. When the sh_t does eventually hit the fan
and modern medicine is forced to back down over Buteyko, this fiasco must
be used as a weapon to force change onto the medical culture. Every year
that passes with the status quo firmly entrenched presents another nail in
the coffin for current medical practice."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"As long as the community has this illusion that medicine is somehow
"scientific", it will remain happy to abregate it's health care
responsibilities to this select group of people."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I think there is a lot wrong with medicine, and every opposition,
every slamming door, every biogted rejection of the theory is just
another piece of ammunition for when the real work starts....
to reform medicine."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"This idea that conventional medical treatment has the answer by
providing symptomatic relief from a disease it does not understand,
is just a kind of bigoted medical imperialism."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Medical Science would benefit if only doctors and medical
scientists received some training in medical history. I'm certain
that the Guru mentality instilled in medical students stifles creative
thought."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I don't really care what the other Buteyko goer, or for that matter,
practitioner says. Unlike conventional therapy, which just provides
symptomatic relief, Buteyko, having found the root cause of asthma,
can provide a cure."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
____________________________________________________
"Buteyko is effective in combatting cancer should come as no surprize."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/mpa1992128/s109.html
MEDICAL PRACTICE ACT 1992 - SECT 109
Cancer treatments not to be given or offered by unregistered persons
109. (1) A person (including a body corporate) must not sell or supply to or
give any person any substance or article in respect of which there is a
prohibited representation by the manufacturer, seller, supplier or giver of
the substance or article.
Maximum penalty: 100 penalty units or imprisonment for 2 years, or both.
(2) A "prohibited representation" is a representation that indicates
expressly
or impliedly that the substance or article has or is likely to have curative
or alleviating powers when taken or used in the treatment of, or may be
taken
or used for the prevention of, cancer.
(3) This section does not apply to the sale, supply or giving of a substance
or article to or on behalf of a person who has been expressly authorised by
a
registered medical practitioner to take or use the substance or article.
(4) In this section:
"representation" includes advertisement, recommendation, statement or
document
and any circular, label, notice, wrapper or any announcement made orally or
by
means of producing or transmitting light or sound;
"sell" includes offer or attempt to sell or have in possession for sale or
expose for sale;
"substance" includes drug, mixture, medicine, compound or device.
(5) Proceedings for an offence against this section may be commenced at any
time within 2 years after the alleged commission of the offence.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/mpa1992128/s113.html
MEDICAL PRACTICE ACT 1992 - SECT 113
What constitutes advertising of medical services
113. For the purposes of this Part a person advertises medical services if
the
person advertises himself or herself or another person, or holds himself or
herself or another person out, to be entitled, qualified, able or willing to
practise medicine or surgery in any of its branches or to give or perform
any
medical or surgical advice, service, attendance or operation.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/do/disp.pl/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/mpa1992128/s108
.html
MEDICAL PRACTICE ACT 1992 - SECT 108
Prohibition against advertising cures for certain diseases
108. (1) This section applies to any disease prescribed as a disease to
which
this section applies.
(2) A person (including a body corporate) must not hold himself or herself
out, or hold another person out, to be entitled, qualified, able or willing
to
cure, or offer any service in the nature of a cure for, any disease to which
this section applies.
Maximum penalty: 100 penalty units or imprisonment for 2 years, or both.
(3) This section does not apply to any conduct by or on behalf of a
registered
medical practitioner.
(4) Proceedings for an offence against this section may be commenced at any
time within 2 years after the alleged commission of the offence.
____________________________________________________
From: pk...@wt.com.au (peter kolb)
Subject: Re: Buteyko clinical trials now in Medical Journal of Australia
Date: 14 Dec 1998 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <0tgd2.89$g15...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>
References: <%hic2.85$LE4...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>
<OxzT1#sJ#GA.113@upnetnews03> <91359272...@Chaos.es.co.nz>
<#JazjZxJ#GA.197@upnetnews03> <91361026...@Chaos.es.co.nz>
<hacky-13129...@edsl142.sttl.uswest.net>
<91362357...@Chaos.es.co.nz> <7535pu$tp2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
X-Complaints-To: ab...@telstra.net
X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 913675196 203.10.1.133 (Tue, 15 Dec 1998
09:39:56 EST)
Organization: Winthrop Technology
Reply-To: pk...@wt.com.au
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:39:56 EST
Newsgroups: a.s.a
Can you point to anyone who has actually been harmed by Buteyko
therapy, or does your knowledge of the subject not extend that far?
This idea that conventional medical treatment has the answer by
providing symptomatic relief from a disease it does not understand,
is just a kind of bigoted medical imperialism.
This person is saying what others are saying all the time. Look at
poor me! I am sick! I am taking all the medications my doctor has
prescribed and I am still sick! Thank God for modern medicine! Who
needs Buteyko when I can stay this sick on conventional treatment!
That sounds like pure science to me. Experiment with a smorgasboard
of offerings from the pharmaceutical companies untils something works!
Wow!
____________________________________________________
! ! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! I'm really sorry you brought it up because this does'nt help
! ! asthmatics and is a subject doctors are very sensitive to.
! ! There is little point in going on a doctor bashing exercise.
"I have had a private concern raised that we're heading to be just
a doctor bashing group. For those who are concerned,
please don't worry, this is a temporary but inevitable diversion."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"That's why it never ceases to amaze me how people on this group who are
looking for an alternative, keep getting fopped off with the gratuitous
advice:
"SEE YOUR DOCTOR"."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Nobody who has enough intelligence to put up a poster on the ASA needs to
be told by a stranger that he should see a doctor. I would find that kind
of
advice offensive and patronising."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"As long as the community has this illusion that medicine is somehow
"scientific", it will remain happy to abregate it's health care
responsibilities to this select group of people."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"The peer review process is not an infallible system.
It's effectiveness is continually threatened by conflicts
between personalities, rivalries, jealousies and vested interests."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Medical Science is intellectually incestuous, with new ideas finding
it very difficult to get in. This is because the peer-review system is
vulnerable to the human frailty of those in power. For example, asthma
specialists who review all the asthma articles coming in aren't
sympathetic to Buteyko, because it exposes them to criticism and
challenges their own ideas."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"As far as I know the trials were never actually published.
From what I can gather, it looks pretty much like a conspiracy,
with the two doctors setting out to destroy the "Buteyko myth"
once and for all."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"When the sh_t does eventually hit the fan and modern medicine
is forced to back down over Buteyko, this fiasco must
be used as a weapon to force change onto the medical culture."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I read in one of the newspaper articles (on our web site) that
Doctors in Russia are nominating Buteyko for a Nobel Prize in medicine."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> 1998
____________________________________________________
! ! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! I hope you'll excuse me, but I really don't have the time or patience
! ! to clarify all the other points quoted out of context..
! ! ! peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! ! ! So I'm totally baffled as to why there is such a huge
! ! ! amount of opposition to it on this group.
"I find this hostility from patients, from doctors
and now even from Buteyko therapists quite unbelievable."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I've noticed that most of the critics of Buteyko are speed readers.
They read every 4th word and then think they know it all."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"You make far more keeping people enslaved to drugs
over which you have control."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! It's also defamatory. I hope they sue you for that.
"He's an empty vessel that makes a lot of noise
and that's what seems to impress.
And that's exactly why he gives me the sh*ts!"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"You get these bigots everywhere.
It's just a shame that others might be put off by
ignorant comments like these."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"There's really nothing you can do about bigotry:
they don't respond to reason."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"he's a bigot strutting the stage with
very little knowledge, very little insight and not much intellect.
Unfortunately I imagine some people would be impressed by him because he's
all pervasive on the asa ng. "
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Finally, I really want to say a big thanks to Robert
and all those people who are presenting their experience
with Buteyko on alt.support.asthma. It is'nt easy
when you just keep getting your head kicked by bigots."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I make a point of not replying to all your uninformed drivvel."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Perhaps I could suggest, Richard, that you as director of
this operation, redirect his mail to alt.support.asthma where
it would substantially raise the intellectual level of discussion."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"You've been writing stupid letters for over a year now.
If you'd only put one tenth of the effort you have put into
writing these letters, into trying Butyeko therapy, you too
would be without asthma today. Then you could be using your
time more productively, helping others get over their asthma
instead of running the mindless, bigoted, totally negative
campaign we've come to expect from you."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I don't enjoy rat-bagging along with the other rats"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Who, me? a Zealout????? Oh, boy, do I really come across like that?
Ah, well, I guess you need a lunatic fringe to fight the lunatic fringe!"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
___________________________________________________
"Let me also assure you that Buteyko has nothing but contempt for
western medicine and is not interested in appeasing anyone."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.s.s.d.p
I think it's written by a person who obviously depises the
medical profession. All doctors are in it for the money,
they never want to cure, and to change their minds would be
tantamount to heresy. Better to have posted a link directly
to Buteyko's stuff.
___________________________________________________
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER
1998@
Rehabilitation Engineering
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
Phone: 9382-7501
FAX: 9382-7352
1996@
64 Valencia Road
Carmel WA6076, Western Australia.
Phone: 61-9-293-5414 (Perth, Western Australia)
Fax: 61-9-293-5407
____________________________________________________
Secret Squirrel
"I'll investigate the possibility of doing what I hate most...
looking for funds to try to finance such an operation."
____________________________________________________
"Buteyko therapy requies 100% patient compliance. It requires an
experienced practitioner who has gone through the process himself."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Let me also assure you that Buteyko has nothing but contempt
for western medicine and is not interested in appeasing anyone."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"You're implication that Buteyko practitioners practice medicine
reflects a stunning degree of naivety and misinformation."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
____________________________________________________
"You must be joking!
____________________________________________________
Hello Janet
Peter
____________________________________________________
"Medicine often holds itself up as a "Scientific" discipline. If your
doctor tells you something then surely it must be "Scientific".
Unfortunately as we Biomedical Engineers know this is not the case."
Nov 1998 Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I think the way that Bowler appeard to try to
hide the obvious is just wonderful news. The scientifc blunder with the
lung function test is just a great opportunity for us to write about and
discuss the unfolding of this extraordinary event. I now have an excuse to
present this stuff in engineering journals!"
Nov 1998 Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
Hello all,
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
"Nobody stops you from trying Buteyko therapy for diabetes, but the risks
of
running into serious problems with Maximum pauses means that you should
avoid doing them. They are simply too dangerous to do for diabetics."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
____________________________________________________
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/mpa1992128/s109.html
(4) In this section:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/mpa1992128/s113.html
http://www.austlii.edu.au/do/disp.pl/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/mpa1992128/s108
.html
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
"The only way I can explain this is that they must have an agenda
which has nothing to do with helping the sick."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"That's why it never ceases to amaze me how people on this group who
are looking for an alternative, keep getting fopped off with the gratuitous
advice: "SEE YOUR DOCTOR"."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Nobody who has enough intelligence to put up a poster on the ASA needs
to be told by a stranger that he should see a doctor. I would find that
kind
of advice offensive and patronising."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"As long as the community has this illusion that medicine is somehow
"scientific", it will remain happy to abregate it's health care
responsibilities to this select group of people."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"It should be noted that this dishonesty enabled the doctors
concerned, who admitted to being very surpized by the results, to get
back to practicing conventional asthma therapy with a relatively clear
conscience."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
____________________________________________________
"You just keep on sucking at your puffers, feller!"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! It's also defamatory. I hope they sue you for that.
"He's an empty vessel that makes a lot of noise
and that's what seems to impress.
And that's exactly why he gives me the sh*ts!"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"But this sort of sweeping bigoted statement you've come up with
does nothing to enhance the intellectual profile of this n.g."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"You get these bigots everywhere.
It's just a shame that others might be put off by
ignorant comments like these."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"There's really nothing you can do about bigotry:
they don't respond to reason."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"And to be honest, I don't really care much. But there are other people
following this discussion, some of whom will recognize the incredibly
bigoted hard-nosed , illogical arguments that people like you are raising."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Contrary to the rantings of a few loud-mouths on this group"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"I don't enjoy rat-bagging along with the other rats"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
"Who, me? a Zealout????? Oh, boy, do I really come across like that?
Ah, well, I guess you need a lunatic fringe to fight the lunatic fringe!"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
___________________________________________________
"Let me also assure you that Buteyko has nothing but contempt for
western medicine and is not interested in appeasing anyone."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.s.s.d.p
I think it's written by a person who obviously depises the
medical profession. All doctors are in it for the money,
they never want to cure, and to change their minds would be
tantamount to heresy. Better to have posted a link directly
to Buteyko's stuff.
Pat Heinemann <pat...@gil.ipswichcity.qld.gov.au>
At this point I think it timely to draw to the attention of doctors ,
health professions, and asthmatics who read this newsgroup that neither
Peter Kolb {who we currently believe completed only half of a patient
workshop in Australia}and Gary Zanzig{who has never even attended a
Buteyko workshop} have jointly decided they have the necessary knowledge
and ability to teach as health professionals in this area.
Again ,a dangerous scenario.
As Gary is keen to point out Peter Kolb has already published a warning
concerning Maximum Pauses suggested in his instruction sheet. I would
like to inform all readers that this was AFTER one of our very concerned
Buteyko Practitioners wrote an urgent personal E-mail to him informing
him of the high risks and potential dangers of his suggested
procedure using Buteyko Method. He had NO Knowledge that his instructions
could have serious consequences because he has no qualifications
and training in the teaching and application of this method. So Gary, YES
this is a serious medical warning !It seems the old adage " a little
knowledge can be dangerous "would be worth remembering at this point.
Readers of the newsgroup should realize that this method of breathing
reconditioning is taught in intensive face to face consultations over
6-two hour visits per day .It then becomes obvious that this cannot be
condensed into two foolscap pages of self help instructions. The
suggestions is ludicrous.
The information that Peter Kolb is passing through the net is based on
a FRACTION of Buteyko information that was generously provided for
Peter Kolbs for his own reading interest.
I worked with the 1994 Mater Hospitals Trials from their inception
which involved doctors and physiotherapist who had every reason at that
time to be skeptical. However even after being closely involved in the
method They did not presume to teach it themselves appreciating they
did not have the necessary training to do so.
pat...@gil.ipswichcity.qld.gov.au (Pat Heinemann)
Buteyko Method is not a Cure
It is incorrect to state that Buteyko Method is an asthma cure.
___________________________________________________
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER
1998
Rehabilitation Engineering
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
Phone: 9382-7501
FAX: 9382-7352
1996
64 Valencia Road
ScoobyRCP
>What would almost certainly help is if you could replace some of thenitrogen
in the air mix with Carbon Dioxide. CO2 is a well know smooth muscle relaxant
and therefore bronchodilator.
I made this comment once before, and I'll make it once again because you have
once again demonstrated your complete lack of medical knowlege. If CO2 were
such a wonderful thing, then i should NEVER have to place an asthma or COPD
patient on a ventilator. Heck, I shouldn't have been on a ventilator as my CO2
was 145 when I was intubated (normal is 35-45). Not only was I NOT breathing
breathing too much, I should have had TONS of bronchodilation instead of having
my airways totally shut down! Your thought process, and lack of it amazes me!
>In fact anesthetists (anesthesiologists) whose job it is to keep patients
alive during an operation, take their CO2 levels very seriously. CO2 used to
be used in ER's but the practice has fallen out of fashion.
>Why bother with CO2 when a squirt of Ventolin will do?
The folks in the OR manage CO2 in a much different manner and for different
reasons. We still watch CO2 in our ER's, and in the PICU where I work.....as
an indicator of respiratory failure! As the CO2 climbs, the body's respiratory
system is FAILING!
At least I can count on a good laugh after reading your contrived medical
explanations!
ScoobyRCP
>From: pk...@wt.com.au (peter kolb)
>
>I'm not going to go over all of Scooby's diatribe. I'll just comment
>on a few points for the last time and then leave him to rage on.
>
First of all I do not succumb to name calling, and I certainly will not shrink
from any of your postings.
As for the science.....why don't you access MEDLINE and do the research
yourself. The information is there, the text books should be at your finger
tips......of course I guess in your eyes the whole medical establishment is
gathering together to bury your "method" and hide it from view of the average
asthma sufferer.....must be some kind of mind control ray.....
Bottom line is that you have anecdotal evidence.....and I have clinical
practice.
Have a nice day......
peter kolb
Thanks for your interesting mail. You're like a breath of fresh air
in this hostile group.
mart...@hotmail.com (Martin) wrote:
>I've been studying Qi Gong medicine, and doing Qi Gong exercises, and
>have had excellent results. I've been to a TCM (Traditional Chinese
>Medicine) doctor and have had good results. Several weeks ago I
>tapered off of inhaled steroids, and rarely have any asthma symptoms.
>I haven't had any albuterol in two weeks.
I can't really comment on Qi Gong or TCM. I do know that Professor
Buteyko has a good deal of respect for some of the oriental medical
practices. Some forms of Yoga, Meditation etc. have something in
common with Buteyko exercises and therefore can be helpful to
asthmatics. The relaxation is associated with reduced breathing. In
fact I've heard of one of these oriental practices in which you are
required to breathe in front of a candle in such a way that the candle
does not flicker. That's the sort of thing you'd expect from Buteyko
therapy.
>But I do have a problem with Buteyko.
>While TCM is literally thousands of years old, and is still evolving;
>Buteyko is a relatively new theory. Its roots...does it really have
>any roots?
Oh yes! The first references to chronic hyperventilation syndrome as
far as I am aware go back to the last century when da Costa described
what was then called soldier's heart and which is now called da
Costa's syndrome. Some great work was then done in the early part of
this century by people like Bohr, Holden, Priestly and Henderson.
Buteyko's theory is based on this early work. He, in fact, developed
his theory in 1953 and spent many years researching in a laboratory
that was given to him at the Institute of Experimental Biology and
Medicine at the Siberian branch of the USSR Academy of Science. Only
when he was absolutely sure of his conclusion did he present his
findings to the medical and scientific community. But you know how
hard it is to change thinking in medicine. The oldies won't be shown
up by a young upstart. They eventually used the political machinery
to discredit him and destroyed his laboratory. He was banned from
publishing anything, talking to the foreign press and giving public
lectures. They simply declared his work a state secret. The KGB could
do that! So he turned his therapy into a commercial venture. His
adoring patients forced the government to hold clinical trials and in
1985 his method was officially endorsed by the USSR government.
But if you have a look at anything on chronic hyperventilation
syndrome in the medical literature, you'll find that it all
corresponds with Buteyko's theory. In one of the first six references
I gave in my original posting (I don't recall which one), one of these
researchers came within a hair's breadth of the therapy that Buteyko
has developed. He actually tried to get his patients to reduce their
breathing, but obviously did'nt quite get the right nack, because his
patients got worse. Buteyko has refined the therapy and treats a huge
range of diseases with it.
>The glaring question about your son is "What exactly was cured?"
OK, he was getting asthma attacks and required from 8 to 10 puffs of
Ventolin a day during the good times, plus Intal plus some steroid
although I don't remember which. During bad times he would spend
every night for weeks on end on the nebulizer sometiems two three
times a night.
In the Buteyko class he learned three things. First he learned to
clear his nose so that he could breathe through it for the first time
in years. He did this just with breath holding exercises. Anybody
can do that but nobody believes it's possible. He then learned to
break an asthma attack so that he could deal with it without the use
of Ventolin. Finally he learned to do special breathing exercises that
would reset his respiratory center to a higher CO2 level. He learned
all this in the first lesson on the first day!
Right from the start he was able to suppress all asthma attacks. As
time went on he found it easier and easier to suppress these attacks
which became weaker and weaker and by the second week he did'nt have
to work hard at it any more. He gradually reduced his steroids over
about three months and has never had any more asthma attacks. He
stopped doing exericses and never had any more attacks. He has
resumed the exercises now because he has become a health and fitness
freak and realizes now how they help him feel good and healthy. When
he comes back from a run his mouth is closed and he is no longer out
of breath. The change is just staggering.
>Perhaps he was hyperventilating, and didn't really have asthma.
>Without knowing what happened, we can't really evaluate the
>effectiveness of Buteyko.
Well, I wish the dozens of doctors and specialists he saw would have
told me he was just hyperventilating. They all told me he was a
severe asthmatic and told me exactly how to deal with it.
A friend of mine actually teaches the Buteyko method. Out of over
1500 asthmatics she has treated, not one has asked for a refund. Of
the 600 people she has treated for sleep apnea and snoring only three
have asked for a refund. The people in our asthma group on the
internet all swear by Buteyko. The media who are quick to uncover
scams in Australia, have always come up with a positive report on
Buteyko. I have hours of video taped stuff! It's all positive.
>Today, TCM is being used in conjunction with Western Medicine -- not
>as a so-called "alternative" medicine.
Some 64% of American medical schools today teach some "alternative
medicine". There is a revolution happening in medicine at the moment.
It's called "evidence based medicine". Great writers like Lynne
McTaggart have highlighted that most of medical practices have never
been tested. Many are useless. The medical establishment is
increasingly taking this on board. Treatments have to be shown to
work. They will be used, whether they have been written up in the
medical press or not. So there is hope for us yet! That's why you
can't take the absurd shrieks of Chris Owen and Colin Campbell
seriously.
>A lot of TCM doctors are also
>MDs. Meanwhile, Buteyko seems to be at odds with Western Medicine.
Western medicine says that the low CO2 levels (hypocapnia) that is
always seen in asthmatics is caused by the asthma. Buteyko says the
asthma is caused by the hypocapnia. That's the only difference.
Western medicine has been looking for a solution to asthma for
decades. They are no closer. Buteyko has based a treatment on his
theory and it always works.
>But still -- what is Buteyko actually doing? And can we assume that it
>works for everything that has been diagnosed as asthma?
Why don't you get hold of Nixon's paper on hyperventilation to see
what overbreathing can do to you? Sher's article is also worth
reading.
The theory is that for a variety of reasons your CO2 level in your
blood can become low. If sustained for some time such as when under
prolonged stress (remembers stress causes overbreathing), it stays
low. This is all in the literature and in fundamental physiology text
books. Low CO2 causes all sorts of physiological problems. The
Buteyko exercises are aimed at restoring your CO2 levels back to
normal. With normal (eucapnic) breathing all your biochemistry
returns to normal again. Your immune system works better, you sleep
better etc, etc. The whole thing is absolutely logical and I think
this is one of the things doctors don't like about it. They love
having a bit of mystery in medicine.
>I suspect that there are conditions for which Buteyko is the right
>treatment. But exactly what conditions?
Buteyko therapy should be practiced by anyone who habitually
hyperventilates. It's an essential element in the recipe for good
health. Chronic hyperventilation syndrome brings up a bizzarre array
of seemingly unrelated symptoms. But even if it produces no symptoms,
it should still be treated. You don't know how much damage will
happen to you down the track....
>Buteyko needs to be examined much more closely, under very carefully
>selected and controlled conditions in order to determine just what
>exactly it is doing. And why.
There is no mystery about Buteyko therapy. There are some good books
out on the subject now, particularly by Alexander Stamatski. Details
are on our web site.
A.R.Friedel
>
> http://www.accc.gov.au/
>
Well, scrutinizing something as important as treatment
for a serious disease can never do any harm.
The bottom line seems to be that both Buteyko and
established asthma treatment are extreme forms of
reductionism, Buteyko reducing asthma to carbon dioxide
deficiency and established medicine to lack of some
drug yet to be invented. But then (surprise surprise)
carbon dioxide deficiency is scientifically accepted:
CHEST Editorials Vol. 95 / Nr. 1 / Jan 1989 1-2
"Patients with acute asthma characteristically
hyperventilate, as reflected by low arterial carbon
dioxide tension (PaCO2) levels.... However, available
evidence suggests that patients who are experiencing an
acute attack or who are symptomatic with chronic asthma
display an increased minute ventilation in association
with an elevated respiratory centre drive." So Buteyko
is just saying: normalize your CO2 and your asthma will
tend to go away (but for God's sake stay compliant on
steroids). Is this somehow morally perverse? Is it
morally perverse and not playing fair to advocate
exercises to stop asthma attacks? Is it wrong to do
breathing exercises to avoid chronic hyperventilation
as part of asthma? Chronic hyperventilation is ignored
in conventional treatment.
If you take a traditionalist attitude and think that
it is wrong to make such wholesale criticism of
orthodox medical practice and somehow cheat you way out
of pain, just think of the opponents of painless
childbirth in the last century, but then remember that
pain during childbirth was natural and that there is
much to indicate that "natural asthma" is comparatively
harmless though chronic and incapacitating. It was said
to prolong life (O.W.Holmes). So a true conservative
view should be to attack the new-fangled medication and
the general inflationary trend in medical activities.
Many major developments in medicine have been
accompanied by feuds: aseptic surgery, vaccination, so
maybe we are on to something! Cheers and good health,
Richard Friedel.
Stay compliant on steroids, develop a good relationship
with your physician and check out the role of carbon
dioxide in "modulating" oxygen transport by the blood
and its effect on airway muscles.
Robin
<cao...@redsuspenders.com> writes
>On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:52:14 GMT, pk...@wt.com.au (peter kolb) wrote:
>
>>>The problem with you sir is that you have neither a license to practice
>>>medicine, nor do you have any real clinical, first-hand experience treating
>>>patients with a respiratory disease.
>>
>>No, but I'll tell you a little bit about my experience.
>
>got better because of Buteyko, or because most children DO get better
>as they grow. Now, would you care to ashcan the anecdotes and post
>some real DATA?
>
>Chris Owens
I was *very* interested to recently read that researchers working on
asthma had ascertained that many people diagnosed with the complaint did
not in fact have the disease and where instead thought to be suffering
hyperventilation and panic attacks.
If I understand correctly diagnosis can only *really* be confirmed by
the histamine challenge test but I may have misunderstood that point.
Many children are given bronchodilators for 'occasional' wheeze which
may be nothing more than the effects of a LRT infection. They then are
tagged with the asthmatic label and may well develop breathless attacks
as a response to stress or upset. Seems to me that this is the type of
'asthma' that the B method would indeed help.
Regards
--
Robin Muskett
'When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind' (Lennon)
ScoobyRCP
Asthma is not caused by lack of CO2.....as I stated in the previous post.
Taking a few lines from a text/journal and then hypothesizing without any first
hand clinical education is dangerous.
Buteyko's claim to "normalize" CO2 is nothing but a crock of bovine feces.
Chronic hyperventilation is NOT a component of asthma. PERIOD Hyperventilation
Syndrome is noting akin to asthma and is considered a psychological
manifestation by most physicians and is treated (sucessfully in most cases) by
the administration of anti-anxiety medications.
ScoobyRCP
>as a response to stress or upset.
This is where counseling and the possible addition of anti-anxiety medications
may come in......most however would benefit not from the B method, but rather
good old fashioned counseling to identify the underlying reason for the
episode, and thereby helping the individual cope with their surroundings in a
more manageable fashion.
C.A. Owens
>> As a long,long time lurker and an occasional poster.It would seem
>>to me If It was a disease of breathing too much, a brown paper bag placed
>>over the nose and mouth would work just as well.
>>Please correct me If I am wrong...............
>
>This is a good question and comes up all the time. The paper bag
>routine is used for acute episodes of hyperventilation but is no good
>at curing the chronic problem or an asthma attack. By the time a full
>blown attack developes the patient is already short of oxygen so the
>last thing you would want to do is deprive him of more oxygen by
>breathing into a bag.
Whereas Buteyko PREVENTS the attack by depriving the patient of oxygen
from the get-go. RIIGGGHHHHTTTTT!
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
>
>I'm not going to go over all of Scooby's diatribe. I'll just comment
>on a few points for the last time and then leave him to rage on.
>
>scoo...@aol.com (ScoobyRCP) wrote:
>
>>First of all I am NOT a physician, I AM a Respiratory Therapist WITH asthma.
>
>I apologise to all the doctors out there. Scooby calls himself a
>respiratory specialist. In all the countries I've lived a respiratory
>specialist is a specialist doctor.
No, he calls himself a respiratory THERAPIST. This is a medical
specialty, but the person generally isn't a physician. Your lack of
ability to READ is amazing.
>>As for your sojn being off medications, I would love to challenge you to prove
>>it is really the "method" that provided the "cure" or whether it is simply that
>>as he grew so did his airways and therefore an increase in the intralumenal
>>diameter which lessens the severity of most all childhood respiratory
>>illnesses. There are many kids who "grow out" of their asthma by this simple
>>process of maturation and they have never used your "method".
>
>This is the stuff we get all the time from the uninformed. They
>pontificate and lecture to us without doing any research. Infact
>Scooby here has'nt even bothered to read my post properly. I clearly
>stated that my son's transformation came on the day he started the
>course.
You know, this is REALLY amazing. Not even Buteyko claimed those
sorts of results. Of course, they are HIGHLY consistent with what one
finds with a placebo response, not a medical one.
>>I have done the research, and so have many others. We have seen the postings,
>>we have seen the websites, what we have NOT seen are the factual, scientifc
>>principles of research offered. You mentioned trials being planned. Why don't
>>you provide us with the names of the investigators and institutions where the
>>studies are to be performed.
>
>Come on Scooby, you know full well how jealously pre-published
>research is guarded. You'll hear about them in the fullness of time.
Actually, I know how jealously pre-published research on NEW concepts,
discoveries, and ideas is guarded. I also know how widely unpublished
research on clinical confirmation is disseminated. IOW, this isn't
following the expected pattern; and, therefore, indicates that the
results aren't what the researchers want. They need the time to
massage the data.
>>As for your remarks regarding the blinding being broken during the last study,
>>you conveniently failed to comment on the fact that the investigators failed to
>>uphold scientific standards by lying and ruling out certain individuals which
>>skewed the intial results.
>
>No they did'nt lie. I defy you to tell me what they lied about.
They lied about the blinding. They also misrepresented the results.
>They also did not set out to skew results. They virtually ignored the
>Buteyko mechanism and failed to include some information that was
>favourable to Buteyko in the discussion, but they certainly did not
>lie and they certainly did not cheat.
Sure they did.
>> If indeed this study was so remarkable then I am
>>sure I would have seen a great deal of follow-up with other scientific
>>journals.......none that I can find! Not even the non-physician based
>>scientific journals. Wonder what excuse you can offer here?
>
>As with helicobacter, Journals are just refusing to publish
>pro-Buteyko stuff. It's too controversial. But then there's nothing
>new in that. It's also one of the weaknesses of the so called
>peer-reviewed process. If something is a little controversial none of
>the peers will stick their necks out and support it, no matter how
>good the science. Drs. Barry Marshall and Robin Warren could tell you
>all about that.
Actually, journals are perfectly willing to publish controversial
material. [Witness the idiot brouhaha over whether or not HIV causes
AIDS.] What they do insist upon, however, is some decent data to back
up the theory.
>
>> Your "method" is NOT a cure, and the resultant
>>plecebo-effect that some folks may enjoy will not last as asthma is a CHRONIC
>>INFLAMMATORY disease and as such only worsens with time. It IS NOT a disease
>>of "breathing too much".
>
>Give me some Science, not medical dogma.
Yes, please. DO give me some science that demonstrates that all the
evidence that asthma is a inflammatory condition can just be thrown
out the window.
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
<squi...@echelon.alias.net> wrote:
>The purpose of our activity on a.s.a. is to inform asthmatics about Buteyko,
>and to this extent I'm sure we've been hugely successful. Arguments with
>CBI, CO, CC etc. can't be won even with logic and plain fact.
That's because you HAVE no logic or plain facts.
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
<s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
> The bottom line seems to be that both Buteyko and
>established asthma treatment are extreme forms of
>reductionism, Buteyko reducing asthma to carbon dioxide
>deficiency and established medicine to lack of some
>drug yet to be invented. But then (surprise surprise)
>carbon dioxide deficiency is scientifically accepted:
>CHEST Editorials Vol. 95 / Nr. 1 / Jan 1989 1-2
>"Patients with acute asthma characteristically
>hyperventilate, as reflected by low arterial carbon
>dioxide tension (PaCO2) levels.... However, available
>evidence suggests that patients who are experiencing an
>acute attack or who are symptomatic with chronic asthma
>display an increased minute ventilation in association
>with an elevated respiratory centre drive."
This, of course, being a SYMPTOM of the fact that the patient isn't
getting enough oxygen.
>So Buteyko
>is just saying: normalize your CO2 and your asthma will
>tend to go away (but for God's sake stay compliant on
>steroids).
No, that isn't what Buteyko says. It states that the CAUSE of asthma
is elevated CO2; not that it is a symptom of the disease. Further,
they push the idea that one can reduce or eliminate the steroid
medication.
>Is it wrong to do
>breathing exercises to avoid chronic hyperventilation
>as part of asthma? Chronic hyperventilation is ignored
>in conventional treatment.
Because chronic hyperventilation isn't a CAUSE, it is a SYMPTOM, where
it exists; well-controlled asthmatics don't hyperventilate.
>
> If you take a traditionalist attitude and think that
>it is wrong to make such wholesale criticism of
>orthodox medical practice and somehow cheat you way out
>of pain, just think of the opponents of painless
>childbirth in the last century, but then remember that
>pain during childbirth was natural and that there is
>much to indicate that "natural asthma" is comparatively
>harmless though chronic and incapacitating.
Excuse me? 'Natural' asthma, prior to the advent of medications to
treat it was widely FATAL in early life. BTW, I wouldn't call any
chronic and incapacitataing disease harmless, comparatively or no.
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
<Alp...@droom.demon.co.uk.spam> wrote:
>>With all due respect, you haven't the faintest idea whether your son
>>got better because of Buteyko, or because most children DO get better
>>as they grow. Now, would you care to ashcan the anecdotes and post
>>some real DATA?
>>
>I was *very* interested to recently read that researchers working on
>asthma had ascertained that many people diagnosed with the complaint did
>not in fact have the disease and where instead thought to be suffering
>hyperventilation and panic attacks.
So was I. Just goes to show that many doctors will take the easy
diagnosis.
>
>If I understand correctly diagnosis can only *really* be confirmed by
>the histamine challenge test but I may have misunderstood that point.
>Many children are given bronchodilators for 'occasional' wheeze which
>may be nothing more than the effects of a LRT infection. They then are
>tagged with the asthmatic label and may well develop breathless attacks
>as a response to stress or upset. Seems to me that this is the type of
>'asthma' that the B method would indeed help.
Since it isn't asthma at all, it doesn't come under the perview of
treatments for asthma. Any behavioral modification technique which
helps quell panic attacks without medication and without long-term
negative effects is fine by me. Just don't confuse it with treatment
for asthma.
Chris Owens
CBI
I must admit I don't read much of the PSYCHIATRIC literature. Fortunately,
asthma is more of a pulmonary problem than psychiatric (although there are
components) and I do read that literature. I have diagnosed several people
with chronic hyperventilation syndrome. None were wheezing. Most responded
nicely to anti-anxiety medications and referral to a counselor.
BTW if you really read Scooby's posts you would realize that he does not
claim to be a doctor.
--
Good Luck,
CBI, M.D.
powe...@msn.com
CBI
deduction that one of the authors pulled her name from the study. Modesty ?
I think not.
I love these latest arguments. First they say asthma is not an inflammatory
disorder. They say it is from lack of CO2. Then they cite the
anti-inflammatory activity (unproven) of nitric oxide as a mechanism of
action of the method. I wish they would get their stories straight on their
newsgroup before recruiting people here. It just makes the refuting the
nonesense so unchallenging.
--
Good Luck,
CBI, M.D.
powe...@msn.com
ScoobyRCP wrote in message <19990823115204...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
>First of all I am NOT a physician, I AM a Respiratory Therapist WITH
asthma.
>The problem I have with your load of crap is that you tout it as a "cure"
and
>lead people to believe that their medication useage will decrease when in
many
>cases that is NOT the case. You have nothing to offer except your
anecdotal
>remarks. While I sympathize with the plight of your son, and all the
others
>who suffer with asthma, I am NOT willing to sit by and watch something
being
>touted as a cure.
>
>As for your sojn being off medications, I would love to challenge you to
prove
>it is really the "method" that provided the "cure" or whether it is simply
that
>as he grew so did his airways and therefore an increase in the intralumenal
>diameter which lessens the severity of most all childhood respiratory
>illnesses. There are many kids who "grow out" of their asthma by this
simple
>process of maturation and they have never used your "method".
>
>I have done the research, and so have many others. We have seen the
postings,
>we have seen the websites, what we have NOT seen are the factual, scientifc
>principles of research offered. You mentioned trials being planned. Why
don't
>you provide us with the names of the investigators and institutions where
the
>studies are to be performed.
>
>As for your remarks regarding the blinding being broken during the last
study,
>you conveniently failed to comment on the fact that the investigators
failed to
>uphold scientific standards by lying and ruling out certain individuals
which
>skewed the intial results. If indeed this study was so remarkable then I
am
>sure I would have seen a great deal of follow-up with other scientific
>journals.......none that I can find! Not even the non-physician based
>scientific journals. Wonder what excuse you can offer here?
>
>From the outset there has been an air of dishonesty asscociated with your
>so-called method. It is for that reason you are not accepted by the
scientific
>and medical communities. Your "method" is NOT a cure, and the resultant
>plecebo-effect that some folks may enjoy will not last as asthma is a
CHRONIC
>INFLAMMATORY disease and as such only worsens with time. It IS NOT a
disease
>of "breathing too much".
>
>You continue posting here despite your own group so I guess you'll have to
deal
>with the the commentary and the challenges. When you want to produce the
>information I (and many others) have requested, then perhaps we'll have a
new
>view of you. Until then you are still promoting a "treatment" which has
the
>potential to adversely effect the health and well-being of others......and
to
>that end I will challenge you and any other supporter.
>
Colin Campbell
>No they did'nt lie. I defy you to tell me what they lied about.
>Accusing the top Australian respiratory specialists of lying is a
>serious charge. It's also defamatory. I hope they sue you for that.
This is pure BS on your part. You have been told on several occasions
what they lied about. Here it is again for about the 20th time. Even
though I expect you to be claiming ignorance (Again!) in about a
month.
1) They concealed the fact that blinding was lost during the trial.
2) They claimed to have screened for hyperventilation syndrome when
they had not.
The combination of these two lies profoundly affects the conclusions
of the report as it becomes obvious that the placebo effect was
driving the results.
Colin Campbell
<m...@anon.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>The purpose of our activity on a.s.a. is to inform asthmatics about Buteyko,
>and to this extent I'm sure we've been hugely successful. Arguments with
>CBI, CO, CC etc. can't be won even with logic and plain fact.
Because you cannot provide these things.
We keep asking for facts and all we see is hype.
Is ther something wrong with asking for some sort of evidence that the
theory is correct? Is it 'bigotry' to point out the flaws, errors,
and flat out lies in the Buteyko claims?
<excessive and unnecessary quoting snipped>
Colin Campbell
<s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>CHEST Editorials Vol. 95 / Nr. 1 / Jan 1989 1-2
>"Patients with acute asthma characteristically
>hyperventilate, as reflected by low arterial carbon
>dioxide tension (PaCO2) levels.... However, available
>evidence suggests that patients who are experiencing an
>acute attack or who are symptomatic with chronic asthma
>display an increased minute ventilation in association
>with an elevated respiratory centre drive." So Buteyko
>is just saying: normalize your CO2 and your asthma will
>tend to go away (but for God's sake stay compliant on
>steroids). Is this somehow morally perverse? Is it
>morally perverse and not playing fair to advocate
>exercises to stop asthma attacks? Is it wrong to do
>breathing exercises to avoid chronic hyperventilation
>as part of asthma? Chronic hyperventilation is ignored
>in conventional treatment.
Actually this is another example of misrepresentation of fact. The
hyperventilation is part of the bodys compensating for airways
obstruction. You know this but choose to ignore any fact that
conflicts with your beliefs.
> Many major developments in medicine have been
>accompanied by feuds: aseptic surgery, vaccination, so
>maybe we are on to something! Cheers and good health,
>Richard Friedel.
But they all had the advantage of being able to validate themselves
scientifically. So far buteyko has had 40 years and has not had any
credible published research supporting it.
JGause23
>No, that isn't what Buteyko says. It states that the CAUSE of asthma
>is elevated CO2; not that it is a symptom of the disease
>Because chronic hyperventilation isn't a CAUSE, it is a SYMPTOM, where
>it exists; well-controlled asthmatics don't hyperventilate.
While I am not a medical professional, but have had, and still havr 2 children
with severe asthma, and having it myself, I seem to be getting the message that
Buteyko believes that they are working on eliminating the cause of asthma.
From my many years of experience the many causes vary greatly..allergic
reactions.(breathe your way out of that one)....sinusitus....reflux.....ALL
CAUSES. My daughter was given and instructed(by her pulmonary) on breathing
exercises to help her get through an attack while useing her MEDICATION. I
think that this mostly just helps her stay calm and focus..it has never made an
attack go away. I don't have any professional background, but experience is a
great teacher.
By the way,...concerning the post on the son...My 18 yr old was severely
asthmatic as a child, but has (for now anyway) seemingly outgrown the severity
of the disease. I myself, had it as a child...went away .... and has come
back in recent years(did I forget how to breathe??)
Rob and Esther Steinbach
There is a large amount of opposition to a new treatment that:
1. The theory behind it goes 110% of all of the western medical knowledge
that has gathered on asthma in the last 100+ years of more-or-less
successful stopping and preventing asthma attacks.
2. This brand new treatment is christened by a professor that is does not
seem able to or even want to work in conjunction with western medical
doctors at all.
3. Most more accepted eastern medicine therapies are at least several
hundreds years old, long enough to be rejected or modified if it turns out
that it does not work as well as it really should. Buteyko is not an aged
eastern medicine therapy.
4. In the recent past (up to the late 19th century), thousand of "cure-all"
solutions or therapies were always popping up. The problem was not that
treatments didn't seem to work, the problem was that the treatments DID seem
to work, but did not fix the problem, and sometimes the patient died from
the condition. For example, in a late 19th century western American town,
one faith healer actually "healed" a patient of his terrible stomach pain.
The man felt much better....and soon after died from complications of a
ruptured appendix. The one thing that modern medicine was good for in that
era. But he felt better and healther, didn't he? Of course he did, he was
a believer! That is known as a placebo-effect and it was KILLING people and
arresting development of our modern scientific based medicine. Could this
effect be the active agent in Butekyo treatments?
5. The use of Buteyko method, as described by the supports, seems to not
tolerate one tiny moment of non compliance. Who can say that compliance to
any treatment done daily after a few years is going to be 100.000%? It
sounds like if the patient misses one treatment or does not do it 100% right
every time, then they will be blamed for having an asthma attack? If
that's right, then are you not pushing the blame on the patient instead of
the therapist or the therapy?
6. If the Buteyko theory is sound, then why did Scooby live? If his CO2 is
too low, then why didn't the ventolator kill him? If he was breathing too
slowly, why did his asthma progress to status asthmaticus? Why when I
stopped breathing from asthma a long while back did I go into status
asthmaticus? Scooby and I should have improved as our CO2 rises, right?
Instead, we almost died from it and I can about guarantee that neither of us
felt better when our O2 dropped and our CO2 skyrocketed. If raising CO2
level is a must, why doesn't holding our breath, like in repeating
underwater swimming, reduce or cure asthma?
Also, I would like to know the death rate from patients using solely the
Buteyko method (group A) as opposed to those who only used traditional
asthma medicines (group B). If its so good then there shouldn't be hardly
any deaths from asthma using the Buteyko method. Many people here say that
the death rate of group A is actually double or the same as group B.
A skeptic,
-R
JGause23
>reactions.(breathe your way out of that one)....sinusitus....reflux.....ALL
>CAUSES.
I realize thes are indeed not causesof the actual disease itself, but can bring
on an attack...sorry about that incorrect statement.(thisButeyko subject just
frustrates me)
Robin
<cao...@redsuspenders.com> writes
The quotes around the word 'asthma' above was meant to show irony!
Are you American or something ;)
peter kolb
>I made this comment once before, and I'll make it once again because you have
>once again demonstrated your complete lack of medical knowlege. If CO2 were
>such a wonderful thing, then i should NEVER have to place an asthma or COPD
>patient on a ventilator. Heck, I shouldn't have been on a ventilator as my CO2
>was 145 when I was intubated (normal is 35-45). Not only was I NOT breathing
>breathing too much, I should have had TONS of bronchodilation instead of having
>my airways totally shut down! Your thought process, and lack of it amazes me!
I really didn't think I would have to explain this to you Scooby, but
here goes anyway. Incidentally, I don't know why you're getting all
emotional and angry. A bit of Buteyko breathing would do you the
world of good.
There are three components of asthma. The first is spasming of the
smooth muscles around the bronchioles. The Buteyko view is that this
is due to excessive Carbon Dioxide loss and that the smooth muscles in
the bronchioles are just doing their job by constricting. They are
there to prevent local areas of overventilation. Buteyko therapy can
be used to reverse bronchoconstriction immediately, as it happens.
You can try it it for yourself.
The second component is an increase in the volume, viscosity and
stickiness of the mucus. I don't know much about how Buteyko improves
that so I try to avoid commenting on it. What I can tell you is that
Buteyko patients report a normalization of all these components after
therapy.
The third component is inflammation. The way I understand it is that
one factor involved in causing it is an inadequate supply of Cortisol
by the adrenal glands. The same factors that lead to a general
malfunctioning of the body's biochemistry due to lack of CO2 are
also responsible for this abnormal state of the lung linings. Those
of you who have taken the trouble to read up on the references I gave,
would understand this. This component can not be immediately reversed
by reduced breathing. It takes many months to improve this component
of asthma using Buteyko therapy. Not only does it take time to reset
the respiratory center, also all the biochemical processes and
protective mechanisms that have been affected have to gradually
adapt to new levels of CO2.
After long periods of asthma which, according to professor Buteyko is
only made worse with bronchodilators since these encourage
overbreathing, often physical damage to the respiratory tract
results. You can't reverse that directly with reduced breathing .
What you have to do is stabilize it first, largely with steroids.
Once it's stable, then you can fix your breathing and so let the
tissue damage heal naturally.
An asthma attack typically begins with a fall in CO2. This is what
Professor Buteyko says is what causes the asthma attack, this fall in
CO2. (Many things can trigger it, such as emotion etc, but the
problem is the drop in CO2.) If the attack is allowed to become
serious, eventually the gas exchange is affected. Initially CO2 goes
down along with Oxygen. But once the respiratory tract is completely
blocked through physical damage or gross inflammation, the CO2 level
in the blood goes up because it can't get out of the body, while
Oxygen goes down because it can't get in. Trying to get anyone to
hold their breath in those circumstances is absurd. Not only is the
respiratory drive very high because of high levels of CO2 in the
blood, but once the Oxygen gets down to 80mmHg (100 is normal),
additional drive for respiration comes from the lack of oxygen. (Under
normal conditions the drive for respiration is set by CO2 in the
blood). If you measure ETCO2 (end tidal CO2) during this process,
you'll find it drops as arterial CO2 goes up.
By this stage we have moved a long way from what causes asthma, which
is what the discussion is all about. Managing respirtory distress is
not the same as long term management of a chronic condition. You
should know that. I'm sure even you don't run around with tubes down
your throat!
>The folks in the OR manage CO2 in a much different manner and for different
>reasons. We still watch CO2 in our ER's, and in the PICU where I work.....as
>an indicator of respiratory failure! As the CO2 climbs, the body's respiratory
>system is FAILING!
Monitoring is one thing. Administering it as they ued to do and as
anesthetists still do is another.
>At least I can count on a good laugh after reading your contrived medical
>explanations!
When you're laughing, Scooby, make sure you're near a nebulizer.
While the rest of us move on, you'll need one for the rest of your
life. Hardly a laughing matter!
Peter
peter kolb
Look feller, girl, whatever....
Most of my quotes you have thoughtfully posted here have been repeated
by numerous other people numerous times. I understand that you've put
a lot of work into this but apart from Colin, nobody reads this stuff.
You're really wasting a huge amount of space. What's really annoying
is that it clutters up an already hugely complex thread, making it a
nightmare to navigate.
So I have an intelligent suggestion for you. Why don't you create a
new thread and call it something like "Peter Kolb's famous quotes".
Then, with the help of the other couple of admirers of my work, you
can stuff all those quotes into that thread. And whenever you find
something else of mine you feel you have to share with others, just
append it to the thread. That would make it a lot easier for you and
your friends. It would also make it easier for Colin to learn
something and it would stop irritating every body else.
And may the blue bird of happiness fly up your nose!
Peter Kolb
peter kolb
By the way I too was a skeptic. It was sheer desparation that made me
try it, that plus some initial research I did into the theory. To be
honest, If I had'nt seen so many dramatic results, I would be on
your side of the fence too!
"Rob and Esther Steinbach" <rste...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote:
>Dear Peter,
>There is a large amount of opposition to a new treatment that:
>1. The theory behind it goes 110% of all of the western medical knowledge
>that has gathered on asthma in the last 100+ years of more-or-less
>successful stopping and preventing asthma attacks.
Well, lets look at the facts. after 100+ years we still have a
treatment that does nothing more than address the symptoms. The
current theory behind asthma is a total shambles, with nothing fitting
anything. In fact, it's changed three times in the last thirty years.
Western medicine does not even have a sniff of a clue as to how to
cure asthma. What comes out of medical research from time to time is
another magic bullet. Not long ago they were infecting mice with live
TB virus to see if that would do something for asthma. The picture of
asthmatic mice doing peak expiratory flow tests is what comes out of
medicine! And the latest I heard was our great medical scientists
were looking into the saliva of giraffes for clues on Asthma.
Say Rob, isn't it time we had a fresh start?
>2. This brand new treatment is christened by a professor that is does not
>seem able to or even want to work in conjunction with western medical
>doctors at all.
I've explained what happened to him in another post on this thread.
Once you understand the history of Buteyko therapy, you'll understand
why.
>3. Most more accepted eastern medicine therapies are at least several
>hundreds years old, long enough to be rejected or modified if it turns out
>that it does not work as well as it really should. Buteyko is not an aged
>eastern medicine therapy.
No, but interestingly it is completely compatible with eastern medical
therapy. In fact, Buteyko explains eastern medical therapy in terms
that we (some of us) in the west can understand. The current asthma
model is only about 10 to 15 years old and can't be used for anything
a model should be useful for.
>4. In the recent past (up to the late 19th century), thousand of "cure-all"
<snip>
> That is known as a placebo-effect and it was KILLING people and
<snip>
I've commented on this thread on Placebo too. Buteyko therapy is the
most difficult thing to believe in, as is evidenced by the
hostility on this group. I would'nt ask ANYBODY (sorry I'm not
shouting) to believe in it. I would ask those who are disillusioned
with western medicine to try it. You have nothing to lose and
everything to gain. Not only do the practitioners give a money back
guarantee, but Buteyko NZ even gives a money back guarantee on its
self-help pack. I have sat through a class, and I can assure you
that at the end of the first lesson everybody felt cheated. You could
see it in their faces. It was only when they came back on the second
day after trying the therapy that the mood swung 180 degrees. They
all realized that after years of searching, they finally found the
solution to their No. 1 problem.
>5. The use of Buteyko method, as described by the supports, seems to not
>tolerate one tiny moment of non compliance. Who can say that compliance to
>any treatment done daily after a few years is going to be 100.000%? It
>sounds like if the patient misses one treatment or does not do it 100% right
>every time, then they will be blamed for having an asthma attack? If
>that's right, then are you not pushing the blame on the patient instead of
>the therapist or the therapy?
No, you have it wrong. It's the therapist's responsibility to make
sure you do it right and that you understand what you are supposed to
achieve. But can you imagine people like Scooby, Colin, Chris etc.
giving it a try with all the face they would lose? Unless you
actually take the time to do the exercises and do what your instructer
tells you, you can't really expect it to work properly. But even
trying the simple iinstruction we have on our web site you would
expect to see some improvement. Many have treated themselves
successfully with just that. The improvement is proportionate to your
effort.
>6. If the Buteyko theory is sound, then why did Scooby live? If his CO2 is
>too low, then why didn't the ventolator kill him? If he was breathing too
>slowly, why did his asthma progress to status asthmaticus?
I've just sent a long reply to Scooby. Perhaps I could point you to
that.
> Why when I
>stopped breathing from asthma a long while back did I go into status
>asthmaticus?
Again, I've explained that to Scooby. It concerns damage caused to
the airways by prolonged asthma.
> Scooby and I should have improved as our CO2 rises, right?
CO2 can't repair damaged airways directly. It can reduce bronchospasm
and according to Buteyko's theory, restoring CO2 to normal levels
restores the normal biochemical processes and therefore inflammation
in the long run. But you can't expect it to reverse mechancial damage
to the airways immediately.
You should also be aware that if the alveolar wall is sufficiently
damaged, gases have difficulty crossing it. So you can get a high
arterial CO2, but in and around the alveoli and bronchioles CO2 will
be very low.
>Instead, we almost died from it and I can about guarantee that neither of us
>felt better when our O2 dropped and our CO2 skyrocketed. If raising CO2
>level is a must, why doesn't holding our breath, like in repeating
>underwater swimming, reduce or cure asthma?
Interestingly, they say some forms of swimming are good for asthma.
Doctors don't know why . All the theories have been disproven.
Buteyko explains that both underwater swimming and swimming in which
your breathing is restricted such as Australian crawl (or as you might
know it Americal crawl) will be of benefit to asthmatics. Holding
your breath early enough in an asthma attack is the way Buteyko
teaches you to break an attack. If you're really careful about not
gasping at the end of a breath hold and ensuring that you maintain the
feeling of insufficent air, you too can break an attack. But there's
quite a bit more to Buteyko therapy than just that.
>Also, I would like to know the death rate from patients using solely the
>Buteyko method (group A) as opposed to those who only used traditional
>asthma medicines (group B). If its so good then there shouldn't be hardly
>any deaths from asthma using the Buteyko method. Many people here say that
>the death rate of group A is actually double or the same as group B.
I don't know what group A and B refers to. What I can tell you, is
that Buteyko therapy is aimed at getting your CO2 levels back to
normal. That means everything works better, you feel better, you
sleep better you work better.....etc.
By contrast I went over a paper recently (I've forgotten the details)
in which they reported on deaths of people on bronchodilators. The
deaths were way above the average for normal people. Most died from
causes which were not thought to be related to asthma or
bronchodilators. Deaths were from cardiac arrests and all those
things that you and I now know are symptoms of hyperventilation.
You need a minimum amount of CO2 for survival. If it gets too low you
die! If your CO2 is lower than normal you can therefore expect to be
sick. So who do you think is going to last longer, someone who has
restored his CO2 to normal or someone whose CO2 is low?
Peter Kolb
peter kolb
>He forgets to mention that it was such a fine masterpiece of scientific
>deduction that one of the authors pulled her name from the study. Modesty ?
>I think not.
She withdrew because in their discussion the other authors totally
ignored Buteyko's theory on the mechanism by which the Buteyko
patients were able to reduce their Bronchodilators by 96% and their
steroids by 49% in three months. I agree, their conclusions were
bizzarre. But then western medicine has no rational explanation of
how this remarkble feat was achieved. I have to feel sorry for them.
>I love these latest arguments. First they say asthma is not an inflammatory
>disorder.
Who said asthma was not an inflammatory disorder?
> They say it is from lack of CO2. Then they cite the
>anti-inflammatory activity (unproven) of nitric oxide as a mechanism of
>action of the method.
Janet and I have a disagreement on this. However, your "unproven"
remark shows that you know little about nitirc oxide. Even at my
hospital in Perth Nitric oxide has been used as one of the most
outstanding treatments for respiratory distress syndrome. Where are
you anyway? The North Pole?
>I wish they would get their stories straight on their
>newsgroup before recruiting people here. It just makes the refuting the
>nonesense so unchallenging.
>--
>Good Luck,
>CBI, M.D.
Peter Kolb
peter kolb
>While I am not a medical professional, but have had, and still havr 2 children
>with severe asthma, and having it myself, I seem to be getting the message that
>Buteyko believes that they are working on eliminating the cause of asthma.
>From my many years of experience the many causes vary greatly..allergic
>reactions.(breathe your way out of that one)....sinusitus....reflux.....ALL
>CAUSES.
Buteyko says that asthmatics habitually breathe too much. That means
the smooth muscles in their bronchioles are trigger happy and the
biochemcial processes in their bodies are not working under optimal
conditions. Any little trigger, like a laugh, cough, FEV1 test,
allergen, will cause the smooth muscle to trigger and go into spasm,
because they are already pretty close to spasming.
peter kolb
>"When did you last even read about CHS?"
>I must admit I don't read much of the PSYCHIATRIC literature. Fortunately,
>asthma is more of a pulmonary problem than psychiatric (although there are
>components) and I do read that literature. I have diagnosed several people
>with chronic hyperventilation syndrome. None were wheezing. Most responded
>nicely to anti-anxiety medications and referral to a counselor.
There seem to be some doctors who believe, like CBI does, that CHS
is a psychiatric disorder. Other doctors, like those I quoted in the
reference list at the top of this thread, believe it is a physical
disorder. So what we have here is really a religion with different
groups believing in different things.
My religious instincts tell me it's a physical problem, because it
makes a lot more sense.
Firstly if you go with the psychiatric group you find that they can't
explain psychosomatic disorders, Placebo etc. It's all a bit
mysterious how the mind controls your body! Or is it just mystical?
On the other hand once you realize the devastation low CO2 can cause
on the body, and how emotion, thought etc affect respiration,
suddenly everything makes sense. Suddenly we understand how Stress
can produce the flue like symptoms found in CHS, the angina pains as
the coronary arteries constrict, asthma attacks as increased
ventilation causes bronchioles to spasm etc.
To be frank, CBI, I don't care much for your religion.
Peter Kolb
Biomedical Engineer
ScoobyRCP
you, sir, are an example of one having a little bit of knowlege being
dangerous!
Gee, with all of YOUR knowlege on this subject why don't YOU intiate a clinical
trial of the crap....i would love to see your results if they are conducted in
accordanc ewith scientific principles of investigation. Think of the world
reknown and glamour you would have if only YOU could be the one to PROVE this
to the world and that old bugger of the medical establishment.....
JGause23
Then why do some asthmatics go into remission only to have it come back later
in life?....it's not likely we broke the habit and reformed it..........
C.A. Owens
>Buteyko says that asthmatics habitually breathe too much.
Whithout a smidgen of clinical data to support that assertion.
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
>There are three components of asthma. The first is spasming of the
>smooth muscles around the bronchioles. The Buteyko view is that this
>is due to excessive Carbon Dioxide loss and that the smooth muscles in
>the bronchioles are just doing their job by constricting.
This theory, of course, has NO scientific basis, and NO demonstration
of accuracy. So, from the get-go, you are off to a shaky start. But
DO go on; this can only get less scientific and more interesting.
>The second component is an increase in the volume, viscosity and
>stickiness of the mucus. I don't know much about how Buteyko improves
>that so I try to avoid commenting on it. What I can tell you is that
>Buteyko patients report a normalization of all these components after
>therapy.
So, where is your clinical data?
>The third component is inflammation. The way I understand it is that
>one factor involved in causing it is an inadequate supply of Cortisol
>by the adrenal glands.
You ARE aware that asthmatics do not have abnormal cortisol profiles,
absent adrenal disease, aren't you? So, this one lacks scientific
basis, too.
>An asthma attack typically begins with a fall in CO2.
You know, I have been ON blood gas monitors when an attack has
initiated. First thing that happens is a fall in O2. Which, BTW, is
the normal pattern described in asthma attacks. So, you are still
batting zero.
Basically, Peter, post clinical data to support your assertions or
admit that what you have is a treatment-wannabe.
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
>There seem to be some doctors who believe, like CBI does, that CHS
>is a psychiatric disorder. Other doctors, like those I quoted in the
>reference list at the top of this thread, believe it is a physical
>disorder. So what we have here is really a religion with different
>groups believing in different things.
>
>My religious instincts tell me it's a physical problem, because it
>makes a lot more sense.
Peter, you might want to learn the difference between science and
religion, and, as a sidebar, how science settles questions such as
this.
>Firstly if you go with the psychiatric group you find that they can't
>explain psychosomatic disorders, Placebo etc.
Because the research into it is still quite new. 'Can't yet' isn't
the same as 'can't ever'.
>On the other hand once you realize the devastation low CO2 can cause
>on the body,
Yes, low CO2 can cause problems. I wouldn't mark them down as
devastation, however; fainting and starting breathing again is fairly
trivial in the medical scheme of things. You have yet to demonstrate
ANY chronic condition of persistent CO2 lack.
Chris Owens
Don Albertson
peter kolb wrote:
a lot of material snipped in deference to bandwidth preservation
But I have to say that this thread really kicks butt! We have
the lone Buteyko advocate standing tall against the forces of
entrenched medical practice. There is fervour! There is deep
feeling! It's drama! But I still don't know damn all about
whatever the Buteyko technique is and what it's supposed to
accomplish. Can someone explain it in a few short sentences
that a child could understand? Right now it sounds like the
same sort of gobbledegook that used to accompany the claims
for Laetrile as the cure for all forms of cancer. I have to
say if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. The
other thing that makes it sound like so many other things
which have been shown to be quackery is that if you really
want to get the full benefit you have to go to one of the
enlightened shamans and pay them to reveal to you the secrets
of the inner circle. Even that web page spends a lot of
space speaking in vague generalities and not providing any
useful information.
I don't give the proverbial rat's ass about whether CO2
levels rise or fall and what that has to do with asthma.
I just want a simple explanation of what it's all about?
Then if I think it sounds useful or promising I can decide
whether to find out more. But I'll be hog tied before I
swallow all this excess verbiage combined with taunts, flames,
and finger pointing.
don
Colin Campbell
>She withdrew because in their discussion the other authors totally
>ignored Buteyko's theory on the mechanism by which the Buteyko
>patients were able to reduce their Bronchodilators by 96% and their
>steroids by 49% in three months. I agree, their conclusions were
>bizzarre. But then western medicine has no rational explanation of
>how this remarkble feat was achieved. I have to feel sorry for them.
And the fact that the paper contained lies had nothing to do with it?
Colin Campbell
>Buteyko says that asthmatics habitually breathe too much.
There are people who say that the earth is flat. Why should we
believe buteyko any more than them?
C.A. Owens
wrote:
>But I still don't know damn all about
>whatever the Buteyko technique is and what it's supposed to
>accomplish. Can someone explain it in a few short sentences
>that a child could understand?
Dr. Buteyko, of the USSR, hypothesized that asthma [along with a whole
slew of other diseases, including cancer] was caused by a lack of CO2
in the body. Said lack was caused by chronic, continuous
hyperventilation. So, obviously, the cure for all these diseases,
including asthma, is to breathe less, i.e. more shallowly. There is
NO valid scientific theory behind this and NO supporting clinical
data, either for the hypothesis or for the efficacy of the 'cure'.
Chris Owens
peter kolb
Don Albertson <dgal...@pdq.net> wrote:
>feeling! It's drama! But I still don't know damn all about
>whatever the Buteyko technique is and what it's supposed to
>accomplish. Can someone explain it in a few short sentences
>that a child could understand?
>I don't give the proverbial rat's ass about whether CO2
>levels rise or fall and what that has to do with asthma.
>I just want a simple explanation of what it's all about?
I've got some bad news for you Don. If you want to understand what
it's all about you have to understand the Carvon Dioxide (CO2) stuff.
Let me explain it to you as simply as I can from the beginning.
Our lungs suck in air and absorb the oxygen from it. The oxygen
combines in our body with sugar and stuff and produces water and
carbon dioxide. The purpose is to provide energy to us. Sugars and
gasoline have one thing in common... they both burn in oxygen to
provide energy.
Ok, so now we have this Carbon Dioxide which we need to get rid of.
That goes out with the same breath that brings in a fresh load of
Oxygen.
The average person at rest breathes around 5 liters per minute.
That's about an imperial gallon. I don't know what that is in US
quarts.
So what makes us breathe 5 liters per minute? While your body is
sleeping you still breathe this air. Why? Well it turns out that at
this rate there is more than enough oxygen to keep your blood just
about as full of oxygen as it can get. There's more than enough
Oxygen. But the Carbon dioxide is a different matter. If you breathe
at the correct rate for your activity at the time, the level of
Carbon dioxide should be 40. Don't worry about the units, they're not
important. If you now breathe a little more you lose more Carbon
dioxide out of your lungs and so the figure drops down correspondingly
to say 36. Breathe even more and it goes down further. Is there a
limit? Yes. Get much below 10 and you're dead. The truth is that
the body needs this Carbon Dioxide for a huge range of chemical
activity. So if at 40 your level is normal and at 10 you are dead,
you can be pretty sure that inbetween there is a range at which you
get sick.
So your brain has to tell your lungs how much to breathe, and it does
so by sending instructions out and pacing the breathing so that the
level of Carbon Dioxide is a normal healthy 40 units.
But there are problems. If, for example, your mum wraps you up too
warm at night or you experience a few days of stress, this actually
makes you breathe more and your Carbon dioxide falls. If you keep it
up for too long it actually sticks there and so your brain thinks that
down at 34, say, is normal. So it makes you breathe too much in
order to keep it at a level it thinks is normal. So you start feeling
sick. One of the sicknesses is asthma in those that are built that
way.
So what can you do? Buteyko says just apply the principle that got
you there in reverse. Spend a lot of time deliberately breathing too
little and eventually the brain can be trained to accepting that 40 is
the right number for it. That's fundamentally what is involved.
There can be a bit of trouble getting there. For a start all the
biochemical process have to adapt to the new level you're aiming for
and that can involve all sorts of changes in your body. There can be
obstacles that have to be identified and moved out of the way which
prevent you being able to reverse the process. There is also the
problem that if you don't do it right, you could end up in a situation
in which for a short while you can increase Carbon Dioxide, but then
when you're not thinking any more it just goes back to what it was
before. So yoiu have to be able to monitor your progress. So for
people who can't get it right by themselves we have special therapists
that know how to deal with those little problems that arise. They
also help you cope with any psychological problems you might get
during the recovery process, such as being disheartened when you have
a setback.
> The
>other thing that makes it sound like so many other things
>which have been shown to be quackery is that if you really
>want to get the full benefit you have to go to one of the
>enlightened shamans and pay them to reveal to you the secrets
>of the inner circle. Even that web page spends a lot of
>space speaking in vague generalities and not providing any
>useful information.
Now Don, that's totally unfair. Everything that I know about the
therapy is up on the web site. There have been books written about
it and there are self help kits, at least one of which gives you a
full refund if you're not happy with the results. Even the
practitioners give you a refund if you don't meet your expectations.
Try it. Either you lose your asthma or you lose nothing.
Are there any doctors out there who give refunds if their treatments
don't work?
Anonymous
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! Look feller, girl, whatever....
"What about Bacteria?"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! Most of my quotes you have thoughtfully posted here have
! been repeated by numerous other people numerous times.
"They are given a full refund if they are
not entirely happy with the outcomes."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! I understand that
"some more good news"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! you've put a lot of work into this
"I've said my piece repeatedly"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! but apart from Colin,
"I'm not sure which part of my message
is considered a visionary pronouncement."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! nobody reads this stuff.
"Right now I'm not even sure if
I should be writing this one."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! You're really wasting a huge amount of space.
"And to be honest, I don't really care much. But
there are other people following this discussion,
some of whom will recognize the incredibly bigoted
hard-nosed, illogical arguments that people like
you are raising."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! What's really annoying
"from years of abuse"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! is that it clutters up
"At first I was tempted to clean up the English, but
then thought it better not to tamper with the original."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! an already hugely complex thread,
"It just does not connect with anything"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! making it a nightmare to navigate.
"It's not so much a shambles"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! So I have an intelligent suggestion for you.
"Well, I'm afraid this is where I'm an expert and you're not."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! Why don't you create a new thread and call it
! something like "Peter Kolb's famous quotes".
"I'm not going to answer these questions for
your benefit, because they will lead nowhere."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! Then, with the help of the other couple of admirers of my work,
"who are pushing Buteyko treatment
so hard must take some of the blame."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! you can stuff all those quotes into that thread.
"I'm not convinced by your argument"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! And whenever you find something else of mine
! you feel you have to share with others,
"I'd like to collect anecdotes of such faulty measurement
practices that other Engineers have experienced in medicine,
particularly (but not exclusively) those that have affected
diagnosis and treatment."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! just append it to the thread.
"you're not on the right track"
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! That would make it a lot easier for you and your friends.
"sadly, reluctantly, unfortunately...I have to say no."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! It would also make it easier for Colin to learn something
"Difficulties like Peter is having is an
example of the need for good therapy."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! and it would stop irritating every body else.
"I'm a firm believer in turning
adversity into advantage."
! Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
! And may the blue bird of happiness fly up your nose!
"it does not have the dreadful side
effects we normally associate with it."
Peter Kolb
Biomedical Engineer
"BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
I'm fundamentally an electronic engineer.
I just do R&D work full time, developing
electonic/mechanical/ computer equipment
for,the hospital."
Anonymous
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:06:10 +0200
Message-Id: <373BF592...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de>
From: "A.R.Friedel" <s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de>
Hi,
My experience was that there was too much hostility and a failure
to realize when criticism of Buteyko was constructive and when it
was not. I seem to be alone in my belief that criticism can
never be so strong that you can't score off it somehow and that
a mild slanging match (flaming) is often useful. Folks just get fed up
with discourtesy. In terms of helping asthmatics generally, I'd think
that posting to alt.support.asthma is more productive because of
the publicity to be gained. A reference to the advisability of
having the advice of a good doctor and being compliant
on any prescribed meds never fails to go down well in a posting. It is so
hard to reach the average reader of a.s.a who will be a US-American.
While they seem to be prepared to accept the idea of changing an
attitude on illness and treatment, belief in certain institutions
seems to be a part of the American identity and this is generally
a source of strength but also of weakness, and you have to be
an ethnologist to understand a.s.a attitudes. If the basic unspoken
instinct is that people with serious diseases which can only be
explained properly in abstruse terms, like asthma, should be
marginalized for the benefit of the community as a whole, then
this point should be openly debated for general benefit, not
only of asthmatics.
Cheers, Richard Friedel
Patrick Chamberlain
Don Albertson wrote:
>
> I don't give the proverbial rat's ass about whether CO2
> levels rise or fall and what that has to do with asthma.
> I just want a simple explanation of what it's all about?
> Then if I think it sounds useful or promising I can decide
> whether to find out more.
One easy cheap way to find out more would be to buy a book about it.
> But I'll be hog tied before I
> swallow all this excess verbiage combined with taunts, flames,
> and finger pointing.
and neither side is convincing me one way or the other.
Something else missing from this thread that I would really like to know
is whether Buteyko therapy is in itself harmful.
What little I have gleaned from this thread suggests to me that the
worst thing being said about it is that it is ineffective.
I stand to be corrected ?
Patrick Chamberlain
C.A. Owens
You were doing just fine up to here. From this point on, your science
starts missing the track.
>Is there a
>limit? Yes. Get much below 10 and you're dead.
Actually, get much below 30 and you FAINT. This re-regulates your
breathing, you wake up, and everything is fine. The only way to get
below that is to either NOT be breathing or be in an atmosphere with a
high CO2 content.
>So your brain has to tell your lungs how much to breathe, and it does
>so by sending instructions out and pacing the breathing so that the
>level of Carbon Dioxide is a normal healthy 40 units.
>
>But there are problems. If, for example, your mum wraps you up too
>warm at night or you experience a few days of stress, this actually
>makes you breathe more and your Carbon dioxide falls. If you keep it
>up for too long it actually sticks there and so your brain thinks that
>down at 34, say, is normal.
Cite?
>So it makes you breathe too much in
>order to keep it at a level it thinks is normal. So you start feeling
>sick. One of the sicknesses is asthma in those that are built that
>way.
Cite?
>
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
<nob...@replay.com> wrote:
>you have to be
>an ethnologist to understand a.s.a attitudes. If the basic unspoken
>instinct is that people with serious diseases which can only be
>explained properly in abstruse terms, like asthma, should be
>marginalized for the benefit of the community as a whole, then
>this point should be openly debated for general benefit, not
>only of asthmatics.
Asthma is explicable in quite clear terms. The fact that one needs a
grounding in biology to understand the terms is no more esoteric than
saying that one needs a grounding in cooking to understand the
difference between saute and steam. I have never noticed a tendency
on the part of the participants in a.s.a to encourage marginalization
of the asthmatic.
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
<patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>Something else missing from this thread that I would really like to know
>is whether Buteyko therapy is in itself harmful.
>
>What little I have gleaned from this thread suggests to me that the
>worst thing being said about it is that it is ineffective.
>
>I stand to be corrected ?
IF a person tries Buteyko AND continues with his / her other asthma
medications and monitoring, ineffective is, in fact, the sum of the
risk. The problem is that Buteyko encourages stopping use of other
medications, including the steroid inhalers that quell the
inflammation that causes airways remodelling that is the source of
long-term damage in asthma. That is not a Good Thing. There is also
considerable, and accumulating, evidence that people who exclusively,
or primarily, use alternative asthma treatments are more likely to
wind up in an ER, and more likely to die when they get there. That is
also not a Good Thing. Finally, Buteyko adherents push the idea that
people who aren't willing to risk their lives on an unproved treatment
somehow just don't want to be well. Since asthmatics get a whole huge
dollop of socially-conveyed messages to the effect that their problem
is psychological, anyway, they really don't need another source of
this sort of guilt-induction. Particularly since, if Buteyko does not
work, the charge can then be levelled that you 'weren't trying hard
enough / right'. If one of my medications doesn't work, it isn't a
reflection on my self-worth or desire to be well.
Chris Owens
Patrick Chamberlain
What I was trying to get at was- if you can maintain a healthy skepticism
about Buteyko, it seems that it does no harm to try breathing exercises it in
addition to continuing with your usual medication and monitoring (and
continuing with them into the future unless/until your doctor advises
otherwise).
This seems to be a reasonable approach to me, but may well upset both sides
of the argument.
Patrick Chamberlain
Colin Campbell
<patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>Something else missing from this thread that I would really like to know
>is whether Buteyko therapy is in itself harmful.
>
>What little I have gleaned from this thread suggests to me that the
>worst thing being said about it is that it is ineffective.
Actually, there are concerns. There is the danger that buteyko simply
masks the severity of asthma causing the patient to undertreat it
because the think that they are doing better than they actually are.
Another danger is that (despite what is claimed in the newsgroup)
buteyko activists do encourage it as an alternative to
anti-inflamitory medications. This leads to the danger of airways
remodeling - which results in irreversible airways restriction.
Asthma is too serious an illness to be risking your health on a remedy
(such as buteyko) that has not even had basic safety testing done.
Simon Fearby
into thinking they can cast off their inhalers and medication and
breathe again in biblical style.
Asthma is an inflammatory disease which kills many people a year and
however much people may wish it was easy to treat and cure it is
not.Stopping or cutting down on medication without qualified medical
advice is a recipe for hospital admission or worse.Please use common
sense.
peter kolb wrote:
>
> Much as the old timers on this group would like to see Buteyko go
> away, unfortunately for them and fortunately for the asthmatics, it
> won’t. This is because Professor Buteyko’s theory has hit the
> jackpot. Unconventional as it is, his treatment is the one that
> works for all asthmatics.
A.R.Friedel
>
> On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:36:00 GMT, pk...@wt.com.au (peter kolb) wrote:
>
> >Buteyko says that asthmatics habitually breathe too much.
>
> There are people who say that the earth is flat. Why should we
> believe buteyko any more than them?
>
> massive, diffucult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
> source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
> Gene Spafford 1992
of elephants. On habitual hyperventilation in
asthmatics, see CHEST Editorials Vol. 95 / Nr. 1 / Jan
1989 1-2 "Patients with acute asthma characteristically
hyperventilate, as reflected by low arterial carbon
dioxide tension (PaCO2) levels.... However, available
evidence suggests that patients who are experiencing an
acute attack or who are symptomatic with chronic asthma
display an increased minute ventilation in association
with an elevated respiratory centre drive". Tallies
well with lack of success with treatment based on
hypoventilation hypothesis. Anyway, why should it be a
fundamental truth that asthmatics don't hyperventilate
chronically or acutely? Tell us, do! Cheers and good
health, Richard Friedel
Surfer!
writes
>scoo...@aol.com (ScoobyRCP) wrote:
>
>
>>I made this comment once before, and I'll make it once again because you have
>>once again demonstrated your complete lack of medical knowlege. If CO2 were
>>such a wonderful thing, then i should NEVER have to place an asthma or COPD
>>patient on a ventilator. Heck, I shouldn't have been on a ventilator as my CO2
>>was 145 when I was intubated (normal is 35-45). Not only was I NOT breathing
>>breathing too much, I should have had TONS of bronchodilation instead of having
>>my airways totally shut down! Your thought process, and lack of it amazes me!
>
>I really didn't think I would have to explain this to you Scooby, but
>here goes anyway. Incidentally, I don't know why you're getting all
>emotional and angry. A bit of Buteyko breathing would do you the
>world of good.
There's nothing like patronising people to make them see your point of
view!
<snip>
--
Surfer!
Bob Kemmler
gladly lend you my DIY kit. With the exception of 4 puffs of Ventilin in
early 98, I have been off meds since Dec. 23,1997. Maybe it will work for
you as well.
Bob
Don Albertson <dgal...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:37C49B12...@pdq.net...
>
>
> peter kolb wrote:
> a lot of material snipped in deference to bandwidth preservation
>
> But I have to say that this thread really kicks butt! We have
> the lone Buteyko advocate standing tall against the forces of
> entrenched medical practice. There is fervour! There is deep
> whatever the Buteyko technique is and what it's supposed to
> accomplish. Can someone explain it in a few short sentences
> same sort of gobbledegook that used to accompany the claims
> for Laetrile as the cure for all forms of cancer. I have to
> other thing that makes it sound like so many other things
> which have been shown to be quackery is that if you really
> want to get the full benefit you have to go to one of the
> enlightened shamans and pay them to reveal to you the secrets
> of the inner circle. Even that web page spends a lot of
> space speaking in vague generalities and not providing any
> useful information.
>
> levels rise or fall and what that has to do with asthma.
> I just want a simple explanation of what it's all about?
> Then if I think it sounds useful or promising I can decide
> swallow all this excess verbiage combined with taunts, flames,
> and finger pointing.
>
Norman Back
C.A. Owens wrote in message <37c52b1d...@news.eznet.net>...
>On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:56:20 +0100, Patrick Chamberlain
><patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>
>>Something else missing from this thread that I would really like to know
>>is whether Buteyko therapy is in itself harmful.
>>
>>What little I have gleaned from this thread suggests to me that the
>>worst thing being said about it is that it is ineffective.
>>
>
>IF a person tries Buteyko AND continues with his / her other asthma
>medications and monitoring, ineffective is, in fact, the sum of the
>risk. The problem is that Buteyko encourages stopping use of other
>medications, including the steroid inhalers that quell the
>inflammation that causes airways remodelling that is the source of
>long-term damage in asthma.
If airways remodelling is a worry then have your airways checked. However
this does not seem to worry people who are using Buteyko. Personally, since
using Buteyko, my breathing is easier, the peaks in my peak flow readings
are as high as they have ever been, my exercise tolerance is higher than its
ever been in my life and my wheeze is now absent almost all of the time. I
don't think any of these equate with airways remodelling and a reduction in
lung function.
>That is not a Good Thing. There is also
>considerable, and accumulating, evidence that people who exclusively,
>or primarily, use alternative asthma treatments are more likely to
>wind up in an ER, and more likely to die when they get there. That is
>also not a Good Thing.
The logic here is flawed. It is not logical to take a statistical assertion
regarding a group of
things (alternative asthma treatments) and then infer that it is true for
every individual item in that
group. The assertion may be true, on average across the group, but there
will be wide variations within each item within it. Therefore the inference
that Buteyko users will suffer twice as many fatal asthma attacks is
invalid. It could be that Buteyko users will suffer less fatal asthma
attacks, without challenging your assertion.
>Finally, Buteyko adherents push the idea that
>people who aren't willing to risk their lives on an unproved treatment
>somehow just don't want to be well.
Well I hope I don't come across like that. It's not the way I feel. However
it is quite frustrating to a new Buteyko user, when they have felt the
benefits, believe they have found the solution to asthma and want to
broadcast it to the world. Only to have it rejected out of hand.
>Since asthmatics get a whole huge
>dollop of socially-conveyed messages to the effect that their problem
>is psychological, anyway, they really don't need another source of
>this sort of guilt-induction.
I've experience plenty of that in my 50 years of experience of asthma. When
I was diagnosed back in about 1952 asthma was a relatively rare condition
and poorly understood by most of the population.
>Particularly since, if Buteyko does not
>work, the charge can then be levelled that you 'weren't trying hard
>enough / right'. If one of my medications doesn't work, it isn't a
>reflection on my self-worth or desire to be well.
But, when one of your medications doesn't work, don't you wonder what you
did to cause it? I know I have.
Buteyko does put some demands on time and effort and, as with any treatment
for asthma, there are likely to be good and bad days. However my experience
with Buteyko is that the overall trend is up. Unlike my experience with
conventional medication, where my condition slowly worsened over the years.
Well, if people try it (without changing your preventive medication) and it
doesn't work, all it will have cost is a bit of time.
If people decide not to try it, they will never know if it might have
helped.
>Chris Owens
Norman
Norman Back
Patrick Chamberlain wrote in message <37C53A00...@cwcom.net>...
>OK thanks that's what I wanted to know.
>
>What I was trying to get at was- if you can maintain a healthy skepticism
>about Buteyko, it seems that it does no harm to try breathing exercises it
in
>addition to continuing with your usual medication and monitoring (and
>continuing with them into the future unless/until your doctor advises
>otherwise).
The above is exactly what I did. After the BBC QED in August 1998 I tried
it, the results were obviously good after 3
days but I did not believe it was due to Buteyko. I thought it was more
likely to be a coincidental good period.
I purposely did not changed the dosage of my Becotide or make any change to
my life-style (except only using Ventolin when needed). Six months of using
Buteyko passed, I was feeling well and hadn't needed any Ventolin.
My asthma was a continuing to improve and I had to accept that the use of
Buteyko was the most likely cause.
I have, since the end of Jan 1999, slowly reduced my Becotide use by half
with my doctors agreement.
>This seems to be a reasonable approach to me, but may well upset both sides
>of the argument.
I have no argument with this, it's what I did. The only down side to this is
that could probably have reduce my Becotide more if I had started my
reduction program when Buteyko indicated I could. However I was too nervous
about my asthma to try this.
>Patrick Chamberlain
>
>
>"C.A. Owens" wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:56:20 +0100, Patrick Chamberlain
>> <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Something else missing from this thread that I would really like to know
>> >is whether Buteyko therapy is in itself harmful.
>> >
>> >What little I have gleaned from this thread suggests to me that the
>> >worst thing being said about it is that it is ineffective.
>> >
>> >I stand to be corrected ?
>>
>> IF a person tries Buteyko AND continues with his / her other asthma
>> medications and monitoring, ineffective is, in fact, the sum of the
>> risk. The problem is that Buteyko encourages stopping use of other
>> medications, including the steroid inhalers that quell the
>> inflammation that causes airways remodelling that is the source of
>> long-term damage in asthma. That is not a Good Thing. There is also
>> considerable, and accumulating, evidence that people who exclusively,
>> or primarily, use alternative asthma treatments are more likely to
>> wind up in an ER, and more likely to die when they get there. That is
>> also not a Good Thing. Finally, Buteyko adherents push the idea that
>> people who aren't willing to risk their lives on an unproved treatment
>> somehow just don't want to be well. Since asthmatics get a whole huge
>> dollop of socially-conveyed messages to the effect that their problem
>> is psychological, anyway, they really don't need another source of
>> this sort of guilt-induction. Particularly since, if Buteyko does not
>> work, the charge can then be levelled that you 'weren't trying hard
>> enough / right'. If one of my medications doesn't work, it isn't a
>> reflection on my self-worth or desire to be well.
>>
>> Chris Owens
>
Secret Squirrel
! Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote on 26.08.99:
! neither side is convincing me one way or the other.
! ! Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote on 15.07.99:
! ! Is Buteyko worth trying ?
! ! Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote on 26.07.99:
! ! Just for the record. Buteyko excercises have seemed to help us
! Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote on 26.08.99:
! What little I have gleaned from this thread suggests to me that the
! worst thing being said about it is that it is ineffective.
! ! peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote on 13.08.99:
! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:23:39
A.R.V.I. as per in Dr, Buteyko's book is "Acute Respiratory Viral
infection". Its reality has been driven home to me by 2 graduates of
Buteyko Breathing Courses (one from mine) who were hospitalised due to a
worsening chest infection. They had both assumed that the problem was simply
Asthma and that they could C.P. and M.P. their way through it - as usual.
I believe that these lung infections in Asthmatic Buteyko Breathers are
prevoked by the lung reconditioning process (Be'champs' Spontaneous
Generation) rather than from outside nasties.
! ! peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote on 13.08.99:
! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
"Eventually my breathing seemed to get worse when doing the exercises
(which my teacher warned of) and I dropped the practice." JLS
"I'm sorry to hear that you dropped practicing Buteyko breathing."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
! ! peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote on 13.08.99:
! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:19:27
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Posting from Nicolas 3...maximum pause
I'm not certain of the details, but I believe there may even have been an
asthma death for which the Maximum Pause has been blamed. Whatever
the incident was, it seems to have sent shockwaves through the Buteyko
community and hence the reticence to use it among some practitioners.
! ! peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote on 13.08.99:
! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:06:35
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Re: Questions, questions... CP, MP, Pulse, Exercise
Apparently Buteyko has said they can break the respiratory center
and make your breathing worse....
permanently.
Your pounding heart is a bit of a worry. Remember, if you have any heart
problem at all you should'nt be doing MP's.
! ! peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote on 13.08.99:
! ! I have never yet heard of anyone for whom it has'nt worked.
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:48:46
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Steroid reduction; Scope....
But treatment for some of the other disorders can be very dangerous,
specifically for diabetes. Diabetics can go into shock from biochemical
changes brought about by just closing your mouth and breathing through
your nose. People with high blood pressure doing pauses can
actually increase blood pressure during the Buteyko exercises
because the system goes unstable.
! Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote on 26.08.99:
! I stand to be corrected ?
"You're implication that Buteyko practitioners practice medicine
reflects a stunning degree of naivety and misinformation."
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
! Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote on 26.08.99:
! One easy cheap way to find out more would be to buy a book about it.
! ! Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote on 15.07.99:
! ! I've got hold of a book called 'Breathing Free'
pavane
Secret Squirrel <squi...@echelon.alias.net> wrote in message news:51c04de61ff2a791...@anonymous.poster...
Harold Spatz
wrote:
>There are people who say that the earth is flat. Why should we
>believe buteyko any more than them?
Hmmm, Go back a few centuries and the folks saying that were the
renowned "scientific" establihment of the era ! Why should we
believe those of today are any more accurate?
Harold Spatz
Independent Alpine Dealer
Bob Kemmler
Patrick Chamberlain <patrick.c...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:37C53A00...@cwcom.net...
> OK thanks that's what I wanted to know.
>
> What I was trying to get at was- if you can maintain a healthy skepticism
> about Buteyko, it seems that it does no harm to try breathing exercises it
in
> addition to continuing with your usual medication and monitoring (and
> continuing with them into the future unless/until your doctor advises
> otherwise).
>
sides
> of the argument.
>
Hi, Patrick: --- You will not upset , and if you do, so be it. Try it as
you proposed. You will like it. If not, nothing lost.
bob
Don Albertson
Anyone who can't explain something as basic as breathing
to a child is either a charlatan or a fool
Janet Brindley
Buteyko is mainly a breathing technique.
Many of us came across it via this newsgroup, by chance, or in the UK from a
TV programme last year.
We gave it a try and struck lucky. I don't know whether it would work for
all asthmatics, my experience is only anecdotal - it's helped me, my son and
friends and neighbours.
However I don't think its a miracle cure - you need to stick with the
'exercises' which depending on the severity of your asthma take between half
an hour and an hour a day - in three sessions.
I don't know exactly how the technique works - the main effect you notice
first (within weeks) is that you don't need ventolin/albuterol (or whatever
reliever you use) nearly as much. As you become more familiar with the
exercises, you can integrate them into daily life and you may only need
spend 10 minutes a day.
Most of us have found we can gradually (over months) reduce
our inhaled steroids - because we don't have symptoms.
Hope this answers your question.
Best wishes Janet
Linda K McIver
! On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:40:34 -0500, Don Albertson <dgal...@pdq.net>
! wrote:
!>But I still don't know damn all about
!>whatever the Buteyko technique is and what it's supposed to
!>accomplish. Can someone explain it in a few short sentences
!>that a child could understand?
! Dr. Buteyko, of the USSR, hypothesized that asthma [along with a whole
! slew of other diseases, including cancer] was caused by a lack of CO2
! in the body. Said lack was caused by chronic, continuous
! hyperventilation. So, obviously, the cure for all these diseases,
! including asthma, is to breathe less, i.e. more shallowly. There is
! NO valid scientific theory behind this and NO supporting clinical
! data, either for the hypothesis or for the efficacy of the 'cure'.
Correct.
If, however, you wish to try some simple breathing exercises, under the
supervision of your doctor, and without reducing medication without your
doctor's agreement and supervision, it could be worth a try. There is a
lot of information on http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm about how to
try the technique - I personally steer clear of the maximum pause, and just
breathe lightly through my nose as much as possible. Two good tricks are
to try and breathe through your nose so lightly that you can't hear yourself
breathing, and so that you can't feel your chest moving much. You also
need to be very relaxed.
I have found it very helpful in reducing my asthma and allergy symptoms.
This is *not* medical advice, and you must always have the supervision of
your doctor. These breathing exercises have helped me a lot, but I don't
believe that it is a cure. Good luck!
(please email responses as well as posting, as my news service is in
serious trouble at present)
--
Linda McIver linda....@csse.monash.edu.au
--
You can't depend on your judgment when your imagination is out of focus.
(Mark Twain)
Surfer!
<s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> writes
>hacky wrote:
>>
>> In article <01beef69$38f2e6c0$5cda4f0c@oemcomputer>, "Diane/Jim B"
>> <djb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Martin <mart...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
>> > <37c220d0...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>> > > I've been studying Qi Gong medicine, and doing Qi Gong exercises, and
>> > > have had excellent results. I've been to a TCM (Traditional Chinese
>> > > Medicine) doctor and have had good results. Several weeks ago I
>> > > tapered off of inhaled steroids, and rarely have any asthma symptoms.
>> > > I haven't had any albuterol in two weeks.
>> > >
>> > > But I do have a problem with Buteyko.
>> > >
>> > > While TCM is literally thousands of years old, and is still evolving;
>> > > Buteyko is a relatively new theory. Its roots...does it really have
>> > > any roots?
>>
>(........)
>
>>
>> This is utter, 100% nonsense, even loony.
>
>Hi,
>
>Or how about this this!
>
>In accordance with TCM 40 grains of rice are converted
>into 1 drop of blood and 10 drops of blood are needed
>to produce 1 drop of sperm (in the kidney, where else).
>
<snip>
>Asthma deaths only seem to occur in connection with
>medicated asthma.
Are you saying that only asthmatics who take medication die?
"
>> This is utter, 100% nonsense, even loony.
"
Or the ultimate conspiracy theory. If no-one had every died of asthma
in times past nothing to treat it would have every been devised.
> Trouble is we don't know what
>percentage of asthmatics remain really effectively
>treated and satisfied for decades and what percentage
>is not satisfied and wants to stop medication.
Just to remind everyone that there is a fairly well documented causal
link between people relying on 'alternative' treatments for asthma
(which includes TCM) and higher hospitalisation and death rates.
--
Surfer!
peter kolb
Krankenhaus, Vienna. Dr. Ignac Semmelweiss strides to the podium.
Before him the hall is filled with doctors and medical students.
Dr.CBJ is in the front row while two particularly noisy students,
Colin and Chris are at the back. He begins:
DR.SEMMELWEISS: When I arrived at this hospital nearly two years ago,
the mortality rate due to sepsis in our maternity ward No1. was in
excess of 12%. This was the ward that was staffed by doctors and
medical students. At the same time mortality in maternity ward No2
was around 1%. This ward was only staffed by nurses and midwives.
After many months of working on this problem I came to the conclusion
that something was being spread by doctors' hands from one patient to
another and that this was causing the deaths from sepsis. You will
recall that a year ago I ordered that all hands and instruments be
washed after post mortems. The effect of this was that our death rate
came down to 1%. After further research I ordered that hands be
washed between attending patients. As a result of this action we
have virtually no more deaths due to sepsis.
DR.CBJ: What do you think is being spread by the doctors that has
caused this level of mortality?
DR.SEMMELWEISS: We're not sure, but it may be some form of invisible
animalcule.....
[Loud laughter from audience]
COLIN: Do you have any proof?
CHRIS: Yes where's your data?
DR. SEMMELWEISS: Our records show that since implementing these new
strategies we have no more deaths due to sepsis.
COLIN: Yes, but where is the peer reviewed evidence that all this
hassle you're putting us through is having any effect?
CHRIS: There's not a shred of evidence in any of the literature that
sepsis can be passed around by doctors.
DR.SEMMELWEISS: As a matter of fact I've had a great deal of trouble
trying to get my data published. But I'm expecting my article to
appear in next months issue of the Journal of the Royal and Imperial
Society of Physicians of Vienna
CHRIS: But you cheated! You lied about your results. Frau Schmid
died from Sepsis and you falsely logged her down as dying from a
hemorrhage.
DR.CBJ: It can't be that simple otherwise somebody else would have
thought of it. Over in England they are getting interesting results
from the extract of a tooth of a tiny rodent found only on a small
island in the antipodes. Now there's real Science for you! What do
those animalcules look like anyway? Have you seen them?
DR. SEMMELWEISS: No, they are invisible.
[Loud laughter from audience]
CHRIS: You haven't got a shred of evidence that these animalcules
even exist, let alone that they cause sepsis.
COLIN: Yes, how about some proof! Where is your evidence!
CHRIS: There is absolutely no evidence that sepsis can be passed
between patients by doctors.
COLIN: It's all due to the PLACEBO EFFECT! Or haven't you ever heard
of the placebo effect?
CHIEF THERAPIST SCUBBY: Look, I don't have time for this load of
bovine feces. I have been practicing for 50 years and I've never
heard such a load of bovine feces. I can assure you I have never
found any animalcules. Besides, a lot of patients don't die. So how
come they survive while others die? If your animalcules really
existed then all our patients would DIE! HA! Just shows how little
you know!
DIRECTOR OF MEDICINE: I've heard enough! I'm afraid, Semmelweiss,
that your measures, no matter how well intended, have not been popular
with our staff and students. I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to
see my way clear to renewing your contract. You will be replaced at
the end of the month.
And so it was. Semmelweiss was replaced. Doctors and students
stopped washing their hands. The mortality rate from sepsis in
maternity ward No1 rose back to over 12% again. Semmelweiss totally
frustrated by his inability to help his patients, died from insanity.
It took another 40 years before the combined efforts of Pasteur,
Lister, Koch and others finally convinced doctors that they could save
lives by washing their hands. During this time we saw hundreds of
thousands killed by their doctors through a period which included the
Crimean and the American civil wars. If only Florence Nightingale
had seen Semmelweiss's report, then the horrors of Scutari could have
been avoided.
This story is absolutely true, although the dialogue may differ
slightly from the original.
ScoobyRCP
to offer, but in it's place you provide ridicule. A rather nice, professional
way to promote yourself and your "method". Have a nice day.
If you want to make the issue personal then I think you will have quite a load
on yoru hands. Perhaps you should think about it for awhile before you make
your next commentary. I, for one, will not hesitate to contact your hospital
and provide them with copies of your posts and the answers to them. Since your
posts have included your hospital name and your position(s) it can be construed
that your posts reflect tacit permission to use them as a foundation. perhaps
they will not take too kindly to the confrontational manner in which you choose
to make your posts.
As I have said before, I will not allow you to go unchallenged. Until you back
off your claims and clean up your website and the other bits and pieces of
Buteyko crap, I will be there watching and waiting.......
Scooby
RCP, EMT-P
Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist
This mail is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and
grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to
be considered flaws or defects.
pavane
peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote in message news:7q5sua$iok$1...@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
*snip*, of course...
>
> This story is absolutely true, although the dialogue may differ
> slightly from the original.
>
>
> Peter Kolb
> Biomedical Engineer
As true as anything you tell us about Buteyko..."absolutely true,"
to be precise. What a stupendous waste of time you are.
pavane
Visit 45
>As true as anything you tell us about Buteyko..."absolutely true,"
>to be precise. What a stupendous waste of time you are.
>
>pavane
>
I see that humour and the point made just passed by you.
Jo.
Norman Back
Surfer! wrote in message ...
>In article <37C63699...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de>, A.R.Friedel
><s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> writes
>>hacky wrote:
<snip>
>Just to remind everyone that there is a fairly well documented causal
>link between people relying on 'alternative' treatments for asthma
>(which includes TCM) and higher hospitalisation and death rates.
Just to remind everyone that the logic here is flawed. It is not logical to
take a statistical assertion regarding a group of things (such as
alternative asthma treatments) and then infer that it is true for every
individual item in that group. The assertion may be true, on average across
the group, but there will be wide variations within each item within it.
Therefore the inference that Buteyko users will suffer twice as many fatal
asthma attacks is invalid. It could be that Buteyko users will suffer less
fatal asthma attacks, without challenging this assertion.
Anyway my suggestion is to try Buteyko without modifying preventer use. So
there is no reliance on Buteyko. Buteyko would be a supplemental treatment.
>--
>Surfer!
Norman
A.R.Friedel
>
> peter kolb wrote:
> a lot of material snipped in deference to bandwidth preservation
>
> But I have to say that this thread really kicks butt! We have
> the lone Buteyko advocate standing tall against the forces of
> entrenched medical practice. There is fervour! There is deep
> whatever the Buteyko technique is and what it's supposed to
I'll try.
You know that if you take too much of a vitamin in
proportion to other food you may make yourself ill. If
an engine gets too much gas in proportion to air it may
stall.
In breathing you have to keep the right proportion
between oxygen which is what the body primarily needs
(like the vitamin or the gas) and carbon dioxide, which
for most people may be safely thought of as a waste
product because the proportions are dealt with
automatically. If you overbreathe as in so-called
rebirthing it affects the brain and you get
halluciations because too much carbon dioxide is swept
or washed out by the large flow of air in and out of
the lungs. If an asthmatic overbreathes
(hyperventilation challenge as used in research) he may
well get an attack because of loss of carbon dioxide.
This loss favors contraction of the smooth airway
muscle and interferes with oxygen transport by the
blood.
This explanation should be simple enough for a child,
given that it has to understand oxygen, carbon dioxde,
airway muscle etc. anyway. What is more difficult is
explaining things to a grown-up who has long been
accustomed to hearing about breathing basics as taught
at school but has never heard about "tuning"
respiration to get maximum efficiency by adjusting
carbon dioxide levels. When he hears about it in
connection with an unusual method for asthma, stemming
from a Russian professor and which is not liked by
established doctors (doctors have a duty to be
conservative for safety reasons), the effect on adults
is great mistrust. Most outsider methods in medicine
are based on supposed effects or discoveries and
professionals just get tired of looking into them
because it is always the same old story.
But Don, your way of thinking would seem to be an
argument against any radical change in medicine
offending the medical establishment. Cheers, Richard
Friedel
pavane
Visit 45 <vis...@sun-co23.lut.ac.uk> wrote in message news:7q6cjo$e5d$1...@sun-cc204.lboro.ac.uk...
Yes, I am in fact notably dull-witted.
pavane
ps...why do you abbreviate your name?
lcs Mixmaster Remailer
* Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
* I don't care much for your religion
*
* Peter Kolb
* Biomedical Engineer
* * Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
* * BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
* *
* * Rehabilitation Engineering
* * Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
* * 6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
* * Phone: 9382-7501
* * FAX: 9382-7352
Welcome to Royal Perth Hospital
Western Australia's Premier Teaching Hospital
http://www.rph.wa.gov.au/
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
The second campus, at Shenton Park, provides elective orthopaedic,
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spend part of their time there.
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* as one of the most outstanding
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* Where are you anyway? The North Pole?
*
* Peter Kolb
* Biomedical Engineer
* * Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
* * BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
* *
* * Rehabilitation Engineering
* * Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
* * 6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
* * Phone: 9382-7501
* * FAX: 9382-7352
Welcome to Royal Perth Hospital
Western Australia's Premier Teaching Hospital
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Send us your Comments
Diane/Jim B
<37c672ca...@news.eznet.net>...
> On 27 Aug 1999 03:05:42 GMT, "Diane/Jim B" <djb...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> There is also
> >> considerable, and accumulating, evidence that people who exclusively,
> >> or primarily, use alternative asthma treatments are more likely to
> >> wind up in an ER, and more likely to die when they get there.
> >
> >keep asking for them and you have never cited anything.
>
> Sure I have, many times. For some strange reason, you just seem to
> miss those posts. Anyway, here it is, again; DO try to keep track of
> it this time.
>
> Use of herbal products, coffee or black tea, and over-the-counter
> medications as self-treatments among adults with asthma.; Blanc PD;
> Kuschner WG; Katz PP; Smith S; Yelin EH; J Allergy Clin Immunol 1997
> Dec;100(6 Pt 1):789-91
Interesting study but no one is discussing using coffee or black tea to
self treat asthma. There is no mention of what herbal products were used so
who knows what was used.
There is no mention of other non-conventional treatments.
So the study is not relevant to the treatments we are currently discussing
and furthermore it does not support the claim below that you frequently
make.
As a result, your claim still has no substantiation and it is likely
nothing more than a scare tactic.
There is also
> >> considerable, and accumulating, evidence that people who exclusively,
> >> or primarily, use alternative asthma treatments are more likely to
> >> wind up in an ER, and more likely to die when they get there.
The only conclusions one can make from the study you cite are that the use
of coffee or tea to self treat asthma results in more hospitalizations and
using some unknown herbal products results in more hospitalizations.
This is another example of studies being misquoted and twisted to fit the
biases of an individual. It is another reason why it is important to
evaluate things yourself rather than relying on someone else's
interpretation.
To find the study and evaluate it yourself, go to a medline site, type in
asthma and Blanc.
..diane
Diane/Jim B
<Y6v1lHA2...@nevis-view.demon.co.uk>...
> Just to remind everyone that there is a fairly well documented causal
> link between people relying on 'alternative' treatments for asthma
> (which includes TCM) and higher hospitalisation and death rates.
Do you have a citation for this?
I hope you are not using the same study that CA Owens is using as it does
not support her or your above claim in the least.
..diane
Diane/Jim B
> On 27 Aug 1999 07:16:14 GMT, "Diane/Jim B" <djb...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Interesting that according to TCM, the time of the day that is
associated
> >with the lung is between 3 and 5 am. According to conventional
scientific
> >studies the time of most severe and fatal asthma attacks is between 3 am
> >and 5 am.
>
> Which, of course corresponds to the time of day when people are most
> deeply asleep, and the beta-andronergic system is at it's highest
> mark. Fatal asthma attacks are associated with SLEEP, irrespective of
> time of day.
Not according to the scientific study posted here a few months ago on the
time of day most fatal asthma attacks occur.
..diane
C.A. Owens
>The Year is 1847. The scene is a lecture hall in the Vienner
>Krankenhaus, Vienna. Dr. Ignac Semmelweiss strides to the podium.
>Before him the hall is filled with doctors and medical students.
The difference between your little silliness and reality being, of
course, that Dr. Semmelweiss did have data and clinical evidence. As
well as a testable theory
So, where IS your data and clinical evidence?
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
<s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>You know that if you take too much of a vitamin in
>proportion to other food you may make yourself ill. If
>an engine gets too much gas in proportion to air it may
>stall.
>
>In breathing you have to keep the right proportion
>between oxygen which is what the body primarily needs
>(like the vitamin or the gas) and carbon dioxide, which
>for most people may be safely thought of as a waste
>product because the proportions are dealt with
>automatically. If you overbreathe as in so-called
>rebirthing it affects the brain and you get
>halluciations because too much carbon dioxide is swept
>or washed out by the large flow of air in and out of
>the lungs.
Actually, no. If you breathe so fast [hyperventilate] that you
depress the pCO2 too far, you just faint, and the system rebalances
automatically.
>If an asthmatic overbreathes
>(hyperventilation challenge as used in research) he may
>well get an attack because of loss of carbon dioxide.
Data?
Chris Owens
C.A. Owens
wrote:
>> >Interesting that according to TCM, the time of the day that is
>associated
>> >with the lung is between 3 and 5 am. According to conventional
>scientific
>> >studies the time of most severe and fatal asthma attacks is between 3 am
>> >and 5 am.
>>
>> Which, of course corresponds to the time of day when people are most
>> deeply asleep, and the beta-andronergic system is at it's highest
>> mark. Fatal asthma attacks are associated with SLEEP, irrespective of
>> time of day.
>
>Not according to the scientific study posted here a few months ago on the
>time of day most fatal asthma attacks occur.
Diane, are you paying ATTENTION? The time of day corresponds to when
most people are ASLEEP. It's known as a confounding factor.
Crhis Owens
peter kolb
<snip>
> I, for one, will not hesitate to contact your hospital
>and provide them with copies of your posts and the answers to them. Since your
>posts have included your hospital name and your position(s) it can be construed
>that your posts reflect tacit permission to use them as a foundation. perhaps
>they will not take too kindly to the confrontational manner in which you choose
>to make your posts.
I have never used my hospital position in any posts to asa. But I
have when writing to a Biomedical Engineering group, where my fans
found the information and transferred it to asa.
Having said that. I would be delighted if you would contact my
hospital and start kicking up some sh_t. I've tried raising the issue
on numerous occasions but they just ignore me. If you can pull that
one off then you're a better man than I am. Many thanks for your
kind offer.
>As I have said before, I will not allow you to go unchallenged. Until you back
>off your claims and clean up your website and the other bits and pieces of
>Buteyko crap, I will be there watching and waiting.......
I'm holding my breath, Scooby. I would urge you to do the same.
You'll find one of the benefits is a calming action!
Best wishes
ScoobyRCP
you posted you employment information. What I AM interested in is the fact
that you are making unproven medical claims, and that hospital you work for is
probably filled with those disliked medical gurus which you speak so eloquently
about......therefore I should think you might want to revise your resume. Of
course you could just go away and this could all die......but then again I
think your ego won't let you admit to either, and so I will be happy to inform
your hospital of your behavior. Perhaps others here will see fit to do as
much.
From what I am gathering you are bordering on breaking the law by advertising
services and treatments not specifically approved for the care and treatment of
patients.
G'Day mate!
JGause23
>work?
Actually, my daughter's dr has not charged me on occasions when he felt he had
not helped her!!!!!
Don Elton
if I save your life. Seriously though, giving a refund for a bad outcome
implies that you didn't receive anything of value for the work you
received which is rarely the case even if you don't get better. Many
patients in fact are going to get worse and die no matter what anyone this
side of Heaven does and whether the patient lives or dies my employees and
my electricity provider (among others) deserve to get paid.
On the other hand, if we perform a test that has technical problems (i.e.
say the PFT machine turns out to have been broken the day you had your
test) then we'll repeat the test for no charge as we need the accurate
data to treat you and the broken machine is just part of our cost of doing
business.
I have a patient right now who owes our practice over $14,000 and we're
still going to treat them but will be a lot happier about it if they at
least show some effort to pay it down. Even if only $5 a month. Any less
than that then we all just feel abused and taken advantage of.
--
Don Elton
del...@cts.com
Columbia, SC
Anonymous
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
* I have never used my hospital position in any posts to asa.
From: pk...@wt.com.au (peter kolb)
Posting-Date: 25 Aug 1999
Newsgroups: alt.support.asthma
"Even at my hospital in Perth"
From: pk...@wt.com.au (peter kolb)
Posting-Date: 24 May 1996
Newsgroups: alt.support.asthma
"As a Biomedical Engineer working in a hospital, I
get my pats on the head from the people for whom I develop
electro-medical equipment, stuff I create myself!"
Peter Kolb <pk...@wt.com.au> wrote:
* But I have when writing to a Biomedical Engineering group, where my fans
* found the information and transferred it to asa.
Peter Kolb: "lies"
Peter Kolb: "I defy you to tell me what they lied about."
____________________________________________________
The address for messages to the Buteyko-L list is :
Bute...@lists.lrz-muenchen.de
Cheers, Richard Friedel
_________________________________________________________________
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To: bute...@lists.lrz-muenchen.de
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Pictures of Professor Buteyko now on web site
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I've been able to get two pictures of Pofessor Buteyko onto our web site.
There is also one of Alexander Stalmatski. If anyone has better pictures,
please send them to me by email.
You'll be able to access them from the last line of the index table.
Peter
Peter Kolb
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER
E-Mail: pk...@wt.com.au
Phone: 9382-7501 FAX: 9382-7352
Rehabilitation Engineering
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
_________________________________________________________________
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To: bute...@lists.lrz-muenchen.de
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Re: Presentation..OOPS!!!!
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At 07:06 AM 9/07/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Private Note....
>
>Hi Amy
Sorry folks, that one was intended just for Amy....my mistake...
Peter
Peter Kolb
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER
E-Mail: pk...@wt.com.au
Phone: 9382-7501 FAX: 9382-7352
Rehabilitation Engineering
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
_________________________________________________________________
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At 09:05 PM 29/03/98 +0100, Neil wrote:
>What is buteyko? and how can it help my asthma?
>Neil Gregg
Gosh, Neil, I'd be fascinated to know how you discovered this mailing list
without discovering our web site first! How on earth did you find out
about us?
As a first instance you really should have a look at our web site and digest
that information which is of interest to you. Not all of it will be. Let
me just mention briefly that Professor Buteyko discovered the real cause of
asthma, what
it is, why some people have it and how you can go about getting rid of your
asthma.
The URL is:
http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm
Peter
Peter Kolb
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER
E-Mail: pk...@wt.com.au
Phone: 9382-7501 FAX: 9382-7352
Rehabilitation Engineering
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
_________________________________________________________________
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To: bute...@lists.lrz-muenchen.de
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Re: Assertiveness & Asth- ma -Reply -Reply
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Hi Patti
At 04:00 PM 18/03/98 -0600, you wrote:
>WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK IS AT ROOT
>RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INCREASED ENERGY -- IS IT
>THE SHIFT IN PH?
Actually, pH does'nt change very much, about 0.05 points I think is the
range. That's because there are so many mechanisms invovled in
maintaing pH. Hemoglobin itself,
the bicarb buffer system, Respiration, Kidneys....all contribute to
mainting pH. It
is essential that pH be maintained.
But if you read Kazarionov's paper: The Biochemical Basis for KP
Buteyko's theory
on the diseases of deep respiration (on our Web site), and you DON'T
ignore
everything that appears irrelevant to asthma, then you can't help but notice
how important CO2 is for every metabolic process. The synthesis of
lipids,
proteins..... effects on the energy cycle (tricarboxylic acid or Kreb's cycle)...
everything is affect by CO2. In some instances CO2 just plays a
catalytic role.
We know that very small differences in concentration of catalysist can often
have a huge impact on the processes.
The ramifications of low CO2 go way beyond just breathing. Asthma has
been targetted
because it's the best way to sell the theory. It's just so dramatic and immediate
that you'd have to be as thick as Colin Campbell not to see that Buteyko
is right.
Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who are either too
thick or have
some other agenda. "Sasha" Stalmatski was heard as saying, "If you
can't convince
people that Buteyko works for asthma, what hope is there of convincing
them that
it will work for other stuff, (like high blood pressure and migraines?)"
The answer to your question lies in Kazarionov's paper!
Peter
Peter Kolb
BSc(Elec.Eng.), MSc(Med), C.P.Eng(Biomed)
BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER
E-Mail: pk...@wt.com.au
Phone: 9382-7501 FAX: 9382-7352
Rehabilitation Engineering
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
6 Selby Street, Shenton Park 6008
_________________________________________________________________
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To: bute...@lists.lrz-muenchen.de
From: peter kolb <pk...@wt.com.au>
Subject: Nitric Oxide/Nasal breathing
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Nitric Oxide is produced by the body as a biproduct of some biochemical
reactions. It has been found to be produced in the paranasal sinuses.
We have used it at Royal Perth Hospital where it is spectacularly effective
for treating respiratory distress syndrome. The difficulty with it is that
it reacts very rapidly with Oxygen to make, I think Nitrogen Dioxide, which
is deadly poisonous. This makes its application difficult.
It may well play a part in Nose clearing etc. How Carbon Dioxide and Nitric
Oxide depend on each other and how they are part of the complex biochemstry
of the body will provide some fascinating research material.
Peter
pk...@wt.com.au
_________________________________________________________________
Peter Kolb: "Are you surpized you're not taken seriously?"
Australian Competition and Consumer Commission
http://www.accc.gov.au/
Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital
Welcome to Royal Perth Hospital
Western Australia's Premier Teaching Hospital
http://www.rph.wa.gov.au/
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http://www.rph.wa.gov.au/contact.html
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____________________________________________________
JGause23
>Are there any doctors out there who give refunds if their treatments don't
>> >work?
Tis was not my post!! I took this as a negative post against Dr.s
>> Actually, my daughter's dr has not charged me on occasions when he felt he
>had
>> not helped her!!!!!
This was my post implying that there are a lot of good physicians out there who
are genuinely concerned about their patients.
I did not at any time ask for free service or imply that I deserved it. We had
been in on for numerous visits and the DR. was as frustrated as we were. He
just remarked "I'm not charging you today..I haven't gotten her well" That was
because he wanted to do this. I thanked him very much but let him know it
wasn't necessary.
A.R.Friedel
>
> In article <01beef69$38f2e6c0$5cda4f0c@oemcomputer>, "Diane/Jim B"
> <djb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > Martin <mart...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
> > <37c220d0...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > > I've been studying Qi Gong medicine, and doing Qi Gong exercises, and
> > > have had excellent results. I've been to a TCM (Traditional Chinese
> > > Medicine) doctor and have had good results. Several weeks ago I
> > > tapered off of inhaled steroids, and rarely have any asthma symptoms.
> > > I haven't had any albuterol in two weeks.
> > >
> > > But I do have a problem with Buteyko.
> > >
> > > While TCM is literally thousands of years old, and is still evolving;
> > > Buteyko is a relatively new theory. Its roots...does it really have
> > > any roots?
>
(........)
>
> This is utter, 100% nonsense, even loony.
Hi,
Or how about this this!
In accordance with TCM 40 grains of rice are converted
into 1 drop of blood and 10 drops of blood are needed
to produce 1 drop of sperm (in the kidney, where else).
This means that every drop of sperm lost means a loss
of ten drops of blood..
There is also the Chinese koro disease: a little boy
gets an insect bite on his penis and is immediately
warned about the dreadful consequences of koro, genital
retraction syndrome, leading to death if his penis
should disappear completely into his belly, 'cause
retraction happens when a male person drowns. The boy
then develops a stronger and stronger pavlovian reflex
and may panic when he feels anything wrong with his
.... Well meaning old wives may come and fix it with a
safety pin or chop sticks and string. Smart traditional
doctors can earn money. Seeing that koro is restricted
to certain cultures (culture bound syndrome) and the
mass epidemics of asthma (38% in the Sidney region
according to a mag here last year) are also bound
(although asthma to a certain degree occurs all over
the world) it may well be that the explanations (not
the drugs themselves) involved in western asthma
treatment are harmful.
Some disease thus seems to be invented: in China to
suppress sexuality and in Western cultures to sell
drugs and create jobs ???????
More particularly, why are
patients told about the danger of suffocation, if an
asthmatic actually overbreathes (CHEST 1998) and
suffocation can only occur in status asthmaticus?
Asthma deaths only seem to occur in connection with
medicated asthma. Trouble is we don't know what
percentage of asthmatics remain really effectively
treated and satisfied for decades and what percentage
is not satisfied and wants to stop medication.
Generally however on qigong (or qi gong) as part of TCM
(?) there is at least one clinical study reporting
effectiveness on asthma (pine tree workout). If you
believe that reflexes play a part in asthma or that
breathing has any influence on the condition, this
might be worth looking into (Medline). Belief in koro
will also promote marital fidelity, excesses being
supposed to be one prime cause.
Although it seems to be a complete denial of scientific
principles which have made modern medicine (surgery,
eradication of infectious diseases, antibiotics etc.
etc.) possible, TCM does seem to promote longevity by
maintaining peace of mind philosophically (?). For
persons with an overwhelming urge to overindulge in
treatment and who are otherwise healthy, it might be a
good thing because acupuncture etc are harmless. But
then comes the failure to diagnose a serious
condition. Cheers, Richard Friedel.
fran...@webtv.net
Colin Campbell
<Norma...@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>
>Surfer! wrote in message ...
>>In article <37C63699...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de>, A.R.Friedel
>><s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> writes
>>>hacky wrote:
>
>
><snip>
>
>>Just to remind everyone that there is a fairly well documented causal
>>link between people relying on 'alternative' treatments for asthma
>>(which includes TCM) and higher hospitalisation and death rates.
>
>Just to remind everyone that the logic here is flawed. It is not logical to
>take a statistical assertion regarding a group of things (such as
>alternative asthma treatments) and then infer that it is true for every
>individual item in that group. The assertion may be true, on average across
>the group, but there will be wide variations within each item within it.
>Therefore the inference that Buteyko users will suffer twice as many fatal
>asthma attacks is invalid. It could be that Buteyko users will suffer less
>fatal asthma attacks, without challenging this assertion.
But the inference that Buteyko users are at twice the risk of a fatal
asthma attack is valid.
You seem to be confusing the risks with the results.
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea --
massive, diffucult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
Gene Spafford 1992
Colin Campbell
<Norma...@tesco.net> wrote:
>If airways remodelling is a worry then have your airways checked.
And just how are we supposed to do this? As far as I know airways
remodeling can only be detected after the fact.
Colin Campbell
<s3e...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>Glad you consider netees' memories are as good as those
>of elephants. On habitual hyperventilation in
>asthmatics, see CHEST Editorials Vol. 95 / Nr. 1 / Jan
>1989 1-2 "Patients with acute asthma characteristically
>hyperventilate, as reflected by low arterial carbon
>dioxide tension (PaCO2) levels.... However, available
>evidence suggests that patients who are experiencing an
>acute attack or who are symptomatic with chronic asthma
>display an increased minute ventilation in association
>with an elevated respiratory centre drive". Tallies
>well with lack of success with treatment based on
>hypoventilation hypothesis. Anyway, why should it be a
>fundamental truth that asthmatics don't hyperventilate
>chronically or acutely? Tell us, do! Cheers and good
>health, Richard Friedel
We are all aware that people tend to hyperventilate during asthma
attacks. However this is a reaction to the asthma attack and not a
cause.
Since there is no evidence that indicates that asthmatics suffer from
'chronic hyperventilation', the default conclusion is that asthmatics
do not. The only thing that could change this conclusion is
scientific research.