The Hazards Of Heavy Breathing
Colin Campbell
"Robert Stark" <but...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>On the other hand, there may be some underlying organic cause, in
>particular, a respiratory disorder. Asthmatics, for instance, cannot
>breathe deeply and to compensate will try to breathe faster. The result is
>that they may blow out half of the carbon dioxide they inhale instead of
>one-fifth. In many, this is a permanent state and a sort of
>acclimatisation takes place, with the body getting used to the lower level
>of carbon dioxide. But if they are then cured of their asthma, so that
Intresting article until I found out that the author thinks that there
is a 'cure' for asthma.
>Low levels of carbon dioxide can also cause chemical changes in the
>membranes of mast cells, a type of white blood cell that plays a part in
>the immune system. This stimulates the cells to release histamine and
>other chemicals, which may reinforce changes already under way, such as the
>constriction of the blood vessels.
This seems to be your analysis rather than part of the report. Can
you provide the source for this?
BTW, my page on nutritional supplements now discusses the scientific
view of magnesium on the treatment of asthma. Basically there is
evidence that IV magnesium may have a place in the emergency room as
an aid in asthma that does not respond to bronchiodialator treatment
but there is no real evidence that magnesium supplements are useful as
an on-going asthma treatment.
'Reply to' address changed to foil email spammers.
Please remove " * " if you wish to reply via email
Vladimir Martincek,nfsbrute
Jeffrey Fried wrote:
> Complete nonsense. Physicians have known for a long time that people
> with asthma need to learn how to adapt to the change in physiology
> which occurs during minor asthma attacks. This tendency to
> hyperventilate is a well understood effect of asthma which is most
> prevelant in people with mild asthma. In fact, contrary to the story
> told by proponents of Buteyko, opening your lungs by using Ventolin
> will stop the hyperventilation in most people. For those patients
Do you have any relevant scientific evidence for your claim ?
Did somebody really measured how much less "most people" breathe
after using Ventolin and how much "most people" is ?
When I used it helped for a while to relax my chest, but I could actually
to breathe much deeper - which I did. And I think I got the same explanation
from my physician who was not mentioning anything about hyperventilation.
So I got an impression that in my case I was breathing much more
after taking my bronchodilator. But I did not measure it.
In the long run my hyperventilation was certainly getting worse.
> with the need for additional help they can see any respiratory
> therapist to learn techniques to overcome it - this does not require
> the special magic of Buteyko, not to mention the cost and lengthy trip
> to Australia.
>
> .... jeff
Has Buteyko ever claimed any "SPECIAL MAGIC" ?
You are doing it in his name.
He only described very basic mechanismus ignored by Physicians (certainly
at least in my case).
Who is claiming that it requires "the cost and lengthy trip to Australia" ?
Again you.
Could you be more specific what that "complete nonsense" actually is ?
Vladimir
Robert Stark
THE HAZARDS OF HEAVY BREATHING
New Scientist December 3rd 1988
Judith Perera
YOU HAVE to breathe to live. But if you breathe too much you may end up in
a psychiatric clinic suffering from panic attacks or agoraphobia, or being
rushed to hospital with a suspected heart attack. You may even find
yourself referred to some other medical specialist-a gastroenterologist or
possibly an allergist.
Most doctors recognise the effects of acute hyperventilation or
"overbreathing" - a hysterical fit often accompanied by muscle spasm or
even coma. But chronic hyperventilation at low levels can produce a wide
range of physical and mental symptoms that may be either misdiagnosed as
something serious or dismissed as hypochondria.
Hyperventilation is a normal response to stress. It is the basis of the
primitive "fight and flight" mechanism. Rapid shallow breathing cannot
increase the amount of oxygen in the blood because red blood cells normally
leave the lungs with their haemoglobin almost entirely saturated with
oxygen. But it can increase the amount of carbon dioxide that is blown
out, disturbing the body's acid balance and producing various physiological
changes.
These changes lead to the altitude sickness experienced by mountaineers
and, in the past, pilots. Here, it is not so much lack of oxygen that
leads to difficulties but low levels of carbon dioxide caused by
overbreathing to compensate for the "thin" air at high altitudes.
After several days, however, most people acclimatise to the new
environment, as their bodies establish a new equilibrium. Mountain
dwellers have lower levels of carbon dioxide in their blood than people
living at sea level, but they do not become ill. This suggests that it is
changes in the level of carbon dioxide, rather than the absolute level,
that is the problem.
People have exploited controlled hyperventilation for centuries to achieve
certain physical and mental states. Some religious sects use it combined
with yoga to produce the "spaced out" feeling experienced in transcendental
meditation. The Pocomaniacs, a fundamentalist Christian sect in Jamaica,
use it in religious ceremonies to bring about a similar mental state in
which they can "see the Lord". Many of them have an orgasm at the same
time hardly surprising as an orgasm is impossible without a degree of
"panting" to destabilise the autonomic nervous system.
Participants in war dances hyperventilate to generate feelings of
invulnerability. Physically it can cause numbness of the limbs, producing
an anaesthetic effect and altering the pain threshold. Dervish rituals are
designed to achieve this effect so that self-wounding becomes possible.
But uncontrolled hyperventilation is a different matter; it can be
crippling and sometimes life-threatening. It can affect the cardiovascular
system causing palpitations, missing heart beats, chest pain and Raynaud's
disease, a deadening of the fingers and toes. It can destabilise the
central nervous system to cause dizziness, disturbances of vision, and
tingling sensations or numbness.
Effects on the gut include wind, pain, diarrhoea and constipation. It can
cause muscle pains, tremors and spasms of the limbs, as well as fatigue,
exhaustion, general weakness and sleep disturbances. These symptoms are
frequently accompanied by tension and anxiety, which in some people may
lead to panic attacks or agoraphobia.
Claud Lum, a chest physician at Papworth Hospital in Cambridge who was one
of the first doctors to recognise this syndrome, says it has replaced
syphilis as "the great mimic". He estimates that up to 10 per cent of all
patients referred to specialist clinics are suffering primarily from
hyperventilation.
Twelve regular breaths a minute, each containing around 600 cubic
centimetres of air, are all you need to supply your blood oxygen. Anything
more, especially if your breathing is shallow and erratic, and you could be
in trouble. But apart from the distressed panting seen in cases of acute
hyperventilation, it is not easy to spot. The breathing rate can increase
to 20 breaths per minute, and the volume of each breath to 900 cubic
centimetres, and breathing will still appear normal, although the intake of
air will have doubled.
There are a few give-away signs. Hyperventilators use only their chest
when they breathe, whereas normal breathing is mainly abdominal, and their
breathing is often interspersed with sighs or yawns. Many people can be
treated by being taught how to breathe properly once they understand that
their problems are caused by bad breathing habits. Doctors ask them to
over breathe at a rate of 30 to 40 breaths a minute for three minutes to
reproduce their symptoms. Using such methods, Lum claims to have
completely cured 80 per cent and helped another 10 per cent of the 3000
patients he has treated for hyperventilation over the past 20 years.
Breathing retraining can certainly help some patients suffering from
agoraphobia, as well as other phobias and panic attacks. A team of
clinicians at St Bartholomew's Hospital in London found that patients
receiving breathing retraining followed by repeated exposure to the feared
situation did much better than those just treated by repeated exposure.
Six months later, those taught to breath in the >correct" way were still
improving, while the others have begun to relapse.
But Beverly Timmons, a research psychologist in the department of medical
electronics at St Bartholomew's Hospital, says it is not clear whether the
psychological or breathing training should come first; people who are
anxious or depressed find it difficult to learn.
Researchers at the Warneford Hospital in Oxford and King's College Hospital
in London are looking at the role of hyperventilation in panic attacks:
David Clark at the Warneford believes that, in some patients, fear of the
physical symptoms caused by hyperventilation may be at the root of panic
attacks. Palpitations, for instance, may be interpreted as the be inning
of a heart attack, or tingling sensations as symptomatic of a brain tumour.
"It is how they perceive the symptoms," he says. In one study, researchers
asked two groups of students to over breathe. One group, told that
tingling and faintness indicated heightened consciousness, said it was a
pleasant experience. But students in the other group, told it could lead
to collapse, became more anxious.
Christopher Bass, a psychologist at King's College Hospital, believes that
trying to reproduce symptoms by overbreathing for three minutes is not a
satisfactory way to diagnose hyperventilation. Clinicians should also take
exercise and emotional stress into account and measure levels of carbon
dioxide continuously through the skin for 24 hours.
Such a complicated and time-consuming regime may not be practical for most
clinicians, but there is growing support for the idea that emotional stress
may be important. Peter Nixon, a cardiologist at Charing Cross Hospital in
London, believes that hyperventilation not only produces symptoms
that mimic heart disease but may trigger a heart attack in some situations.
Because of this, he believes cardiologists should test their patients for
hyperventilation. The standard three-minute overbreathing test is
unacceptable, he argues, because it does not take account of emotional
stress. "When a patient is sitting calmly with a doctor, relaxed and
comfortable, hyperventilation may not do much. Only when a person is
strained or exhausted and the body chemistry is trigger-happy will it have
an effect," he says.
So in taking medical histories he notes any points which seem to cause
distress. Then, after doing all the usual cardiac tests, he asks about
these incidents, and finds that this frequently leads to hyperventilation.
Sometimes he uses hypnotism to help patients to recall important events.
Nixon says that 80 per cent of people with angina are suffering mainly from
hyperventilation. No more than 15 per cent have a narrowing of the
coronary arteries serious enough to require surgery or medication, and
another 15 per cent have completely normal arteries. The rest have some
narrowing, which is dangerous only if they become badly stressed or
exhausted and begin to hyperventilate.
The physiological changes produced by this include constriction of the
blood vessels the production of large amounts of adrenaline and increased
activity of the sympathetic nervous system. It also increased the ability
of the blood to clot and destabilises the rhythm of the heart. "This is a
recipe for sudden death in some circumstances," he says.
Heart surgery is useless, according to Nixon, unless patients recognise the
effect that stress is having and learn to control their hyperventilation.
In some cases, surgery can be avoided altogether and remission induced just
by removing these dynamic factors. "A heart attack," he says, "needs
hyperventilation and primed body chemistry."
Everyone hyperventilates in response to acute stress, but some people
continue to do so even after the cause of stress is removed, and often the
symptoms brought about by overbreathing then become a new source of stress,
beginning a vicious cycle. Lum says hyperventilation is more common in
young women and in middle-aged men. A particular personality type seems
more prone to this disorder-the ambitious perfectionists who stress
themselves to cater to this. "People who suffer from hyperventilation are
tough," he insists. "They are not no-hopers but are successful achievers
who have mistaken the load they can carry."
Hyperventilation can be a habit learnt in childhood as a result of
psychological stress or physical illness. Or it may be a more recently
acquired habit-the aftermath of two or three years of marital or financial
pressures. For some people, it may be an occupational hazard. Singers,
actors and public speakers are especially at risk. "Stage fright" is often
a panic attack which may cause or be caused by hyperventilation. Most
theatres in London's West End recognise the phenomenon and keep paper bags
handy so that those who need to can breathe into them-this puts carbon
dioxide back into the blood. Then there is the "designer jeans syndrome".
Jeans that are too tight can restrict abdominal breathing so that shallow,
rapid thoracic breathing becomes a habit.
On the other hand, there may be some underlying organic cause, in
particular, a respiratory disorder. Asthmatics, for instance, cannot
breathe deeply and to compensate will try to breathe faster. The result is
that they may blow out half of the carbon dioxide they inhale instead of
one-fifth. In many, this is a permanent state and a sort of
acclimatisation takes place, with the body getting used to the lower level
of carbon dioxide. But if they are then cured of their asthma, so that
deep breathing becomes possible again, the faster breathing rate begins to
cause serious problems as increased hyperventilation makes the carbon
dioxide levels fall even further.
Lawford Hill, a chest physician at Warwick Hospital, is convinced that
there is an underlying physical cause in most cases of chronic
hyperventilation. He has identified a condition known as bronchiectasis in
many patients who are apparently suffering from hyperventilation and
nothing else.
In bronchiectasis, the walls of the bronchi (the air passages in the lungs)
are corrugated and voluminous so that the airflow becomes turbulent and is
impeded. Patients are aware that they cannot get a satisfactory breath and
so they breathe more rapidly to try to compensate. But this condition does
not show up in measurements of gas transfer or chest X-rays.
Bronchiectasis may have different causes but most often it is the result of
repeated virus infections in childhood or scarring from whooping cough or
measles.
Hyperventilation is also much more common among patients with allergies,
although it is not yet clear which is the cause and which the effect. It
is known that low levels of carbon dioxide in the blood will alter the
activity of mast cells, causing them to release histamine which can in turn
produce various allergic symptoms. On the other hand, McEwen has found
that many people with food allergies will hyperventilate after eating
something to which they are sensitive. One of his patients is an opera
singer who loses her voice on stage as a result of a bout of
hyperventilation every time she eats wheat.
Much surrounding hyperventilation remains mysterious, and a matter of
contention. A recent seminar on the subject at the Hospital for Nervous
Diseases in London reflects the state of the art, aptly named:
"Hyperventilation: current controversies of definition and diagnosis."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
THE LOW level of carbon dioxide in hyperventilation triggers a wide range
of physiological changes, many of which are not fully understood. It
affects the activity of many cells within the body, especially those in the
nervous system.
Even a slight fall in overall levels of carbon dioxide will stimulate nerve
cells, which then prime the body for action. Muscle tension is increased,
sensitivity and perception heightened, the pain threshold lowered and
adrenaline released into the blood-the "fight or flight" mechanism is in
action
But as carbon dioxide levels fall even further, cells begin to produce
lactic acid to reduce alkalinity, and metabolism begins to suffer.
Fatigue, exhaustion and coma may result. The initial stimulation of nerve
cells brought about by hyperventilation can cause tingling sensations,
numbness, anaesthesia and, in some instances, convulsions.
The cells making smooth muscle are also kicked into action by low levels of
carbon
dioxide. The effect is to constrict blood vessels, including those serving
the heart and brain. The heart may begin to pound, miss a few beats,
produce palpitations or angina pains. The brain may receive up to 50% less
oxygen because the kidneys have to ensure the than normal, leading to
dizziness, faintness, flashing lights, tunnel vision as well as a feeling
of unreality.
Low levels of carbon dioxide can also cause chemical changes in the
membranes of mast cells, a type of white blood cell that plays a part in
the immune system. This stimulates the cells to release histamine and
other chemicals, which may reinforce changes already under way, such as the
constriction of the blood vessels.
Carbon dioxide also helps to maintain the correct pH -7.4- within the body.
But if the level of carbon dioxide falls in the blood and other body
fluids, molecules of carbon dioxide diffuse out of cells to replace it.
The cells then become more alkaline than normal, and may be spurred into
frantic activity.
One of the ways the body tries to correct excess alkalinity is to excrete
negatively charged bicarbonate ions in the urine. These are taken from the
weak carbonic acid in the blood, and their removal leaves positively
charged hydrogen ions in the blood, making it more acid.
But this can cause other problems, because the kidneys have to ensure the
ionic balance of the urine they excrete. They do this by excreting
positively charged metal ions along with the bicarbonate. According to Len
McEwen, these are mainly magnesium ions from inside cells, where two-thirds
of the body's magnesium is held. Cells, however, need to maintain their
proper ionic balance too, and if they are short on magnesium they may pull
in or manufacture positive hydrogen ions instead.
This is where the problem arises, because cells judge acidity by the
presence or absence of hydrogen. If there is excessive hydrogen inside the
membrane they will see this as excess acidity, even though the outside is
too alkaline. These cells will therefore push the body to hyperventilate
even more to raise alkalinity.
In this way, low levels of magnesium combined with hyperventilation may
create a feedback loop that perpetuates the situation indefinitely. McEwan
reports that he has found low levels of magnesium within cells in all his
patients who hyperventilate, and claims that he can cure some by just
giving them magnesium supplements.
Jeffrey Fried
On the contrary the burden of proof is yours. It is the proponents of
Buteyko who claim that their technique improves, and even cures,
asthma. Others with far better credentials than mine have argued very
carefully against the pseudo-science of the Buteyko proponents and
their arguments can be found by researching this news group at the
Deja-News site.
.... jeff
On 11 Aug 1997 23:03:14 GMT, vladm*@Newbridge.COM (Vladimir
but...@ihug.co.nz
In article ,
colin*@pacbell.net (Colin Campbell) wrote:
>
> "Robert Stark" wrote:
>
> >On the other hand, there may be some underlying organic cause, in
> >particular, a respiratory disorder. Asthmatics, for instance, cannot
> >breathe deeply and to compensate will try to breathe faster. The result is
> >that they may blow out half of the carbon dioxide they inhale instead of
> >one-fifth. In many, this is a permanent state and a sort of
> >acclimatisation takes place, with the body getting used to the lower level
> >of carbon dioxide. But if they are then cured of their asthma, so that
>
> is a 'cure' for asthma.
>
> >membranes of mast cells, a type of white blood cell that plays a part in
> >the immune system. This stimulates the cells to release histamine and
> >other chemicals, which may reinforce changes already under way, such as the
> >constriction of the blood vessels.
>
> you provide the source for this?
Not at all. It is part of the report it is an insert on the scientific
understanding behind the article. I did not write it. I hope that you
will now update your website.
> BTW, my page on nutritional supplements now discusses the scientific
> view of magnesium on the treatment of asthma. Basically there is
> evidence that IV magnesium may have a place in the emergency room as
> an aid in asthma that does not respond to bronchiodialator treatment
> but there is no real evidence that magnesium supplements are useful as
> an on-going asthma treatment.
I am not claiming there is a role for magnesium in the ongoing treatment
of asthma (it is not used in the Buteyko technique) nor am I claiming a
"cure" for asthma. You can interpret the article however you like. I
presented the article in full to show the role of hyperventilation in
asthma is not something only held by Buteyko and it also affects the
inflammation process. But to claim that hyperventilation doesn't affect
inflammation is infact incorrect.
Along with the fact that asthmatics hyperventilate, have lower levels of
CO2 than normal people it presents an interesting theory.
People (Jeffrey Fried) that claim other breathing exercises that treat
hyperventilation are as effective as Buteyko should look at the Brisbane
trial and the improvement (or lack of) shown by the control group who
learnt physiotherapy exercises to counteract hyperventilation. Buteyko
reduces the MV of asthmatics and those who showed the greatest reduction
in MV also showed the greatest reduction in bronchodilators.
Steroid reduction occurs consistently in people who learn Buteyko, to
claim that it doesn't is infact incorrect. The protocol of the trials
states that if FEV1 does not improve then inflammation would be measured
by a reduction in steroids without increasing worsening in the condition.
Remember the asthmatics in the Brisbane trial were severe or chronic old
asthmatics who had asthma on average of over 20 years. Severe
inflammation and hypersensitive airways that may have damaged the lungs.
However these asthmatics were still able to reduce steroid by a third in
winter. The researchers have commented that if asthmatics showed a
reduction in steroids without a worsening in their condition, then the
underlying inflammation was reduced.
Steroid reduction depends on age, severity, years diagnosed,
inflammation, damage and is an individual thing. Also important is
whether you suffer from steroid dependency or not. Some asthmatics no
longer produce sufficient quantities of steroids so will always require
inhaled corticosteroids.
I really feel this argument is pointless and is becoming circular until
we have the new Brisbane trials published which should be within the next
3 months.
Regards
Robert Stark
http://www.buteyko.co.nz/
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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Vladimir Martincek
Jeffrey Fried wrote:
> On the contrary the burden of proof is yours. It is the proponents of
> Buteyko who claim that their technique improves, and even cures,
> asthma. Others with far better credentials than mine have argued very
> carefully against the pseudo-science of the Buteyko proponents and
> their arguments can be found by researching this news group at the
> Deja-News site.
How brilliant, I am impressed. :-)
Only that it has nothing to do with what I wanted you to answer.
Contrary of what ?
I wanted the scientific evidence that Ventolin reduces the hyperventilation
as you claimed.
So you think that I have to prove that it does not. Great logic.
And those careful scientist can force me to take Ventolin and all kinds
of other drugs for ever, without giving me the evidence that it reduces
my hyperventilation and all other problems.
I had enough personal experiences indicating the opposite.
You can read again that part of what I wrote:
> > prevelant in people with mild asthma. In fact, contrary to the story
> > told by proponents of Buteyko, opening your lungs by using Ventolin
> > will stop the hyperventilation in most people. For those patients
>
> Do you have any relevant scientific evidence for your claim ?
> Did somebody really measured how much less "most people" breathe
> after using Ventolin and how much "most people" is ?
> When I used it helped for a while to relax my chest, but I could actually
> to breathe much deeper - which I did. And I think I got the same explanation
> from my physician who was not mentioning anything about hyperventilation.
Vladimir
co...@pacbell.net
In article <5sq1jg$p...@kannews.ca.newbridge.com>,
vladm@New*bridge.COM (Vladimir Martincek) wrote:
> I wanted the scientific evidence that Ventolin reduces the hyperventilation
> as you claimed.
Ventolin (albuterol) is not intended to treat hyperventilation. Ventolin
is intended to treat bronchoconstriction.
Hyperventilation is treated with relaxation techniques and reassurance.
My site : http://home.pacbell.net/colin/index.html (follow the 'Buteyko'
link) is linked to information that points out the difference between
hyperventilation -induced bronchoconstriction and asthma.
Many asthmatics have both hyperventilation syndrome and asthma. The
trick is to be able to tell the difference between the two.
Jeffrey Fried
Thank you for the depth of information you have presented and for the
manner in which you presented it. I will most certainly review the
web sites you suggested.
.... jeff
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:51:17 -0600, co...@pacbell.net wrote:
>In article <33F2AD...@magma.ca>,
> vma...@magma.ca wrote:
>
>> > Hyperventilation is treated with relaxation techniques and reassurance.
>> > My site : http://home.pacbell.net/colin/index.html (follow the 'Buteyko'
>>
>> I think I know how it can be treated, I managed it with the method
>> recommended by Prof. Buteyko on my own.
>
>This is fine as long as you recognise that you need to treat the asthma
>with medications. Asthma and hyperventilation are different disorders.
>
>
>> I know, but I have read only the direct link from your site, which is
>> an editorial written by Prof. Cartier. It has only 75 lines of text
>> after I printed it, and desription is very informal. To see some real
>> research and statistics I will probably have to find som of the articles
>> referenced at the end of his editorial. They are not written by him.
>> I was not impressed by what he wrote, but at least somebody is starting
>> to ackonwledge that there is a problem with chronic hyperventilation.
>
>The Journal of the American Medical associations's site has a paper on
>hyperventilation and asthma at:
>http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/library/readroom/oc4154.htm
>
>There are a bunch of papers out there on the subject of hyperventilation
>and asthma. Your best bet would be to go to: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/
>choose the 'Medline' server and d a keyword search using "asthma AND
>hyperventilation". You will get several hundred articles but once you
>find one that discusses the information you need you can jump to 'find
>related articles,'
>
>> That looks like a small progress. But I do not share his optimism for
>> seemingly unproblematic treatment. Professor Buteyko and other
>> researchers wrote 40-30 years ago articles I find much more convincing
>> then mentioned editorial.
>
>The problem is that Prof. Buteyko wrote before it was discovered that
>asthma and hyperventilation were different things (also Mr. Buteyko's
>research techniques were so poor that his paper can not be accepted as
>being meaningfull).
Jeffrey Fried
Greg,
The point which several people have been trying to make is that
hyperventilation and asthma are two different illnesses. It is well
known that one cause for hyperventilation is related to asthma and
that most asthmatics over time can learn to surmount the
hyperventilation which can be triggered by asthma. I read a
'prescription' for Buteyko published on a web site over a year ago and
found that i have been following it for years and yet i still have
asthma (and allergies). However, i also have said that i recognize
that Buteyko trainers are offering a place to learn how to control
hyperventilation and that may be beneficial for those people for whom
hyperventilation is a problem. What i disagree with is there claims
that it does more than provide strategies for overcoming
hyperventilation. Their web site claims cures for a number of
unrelated lung disorders with completely different etiolgies. This is
the point of my disagreement. Add to that the discriptions of the
physiological process which has been refuted by experts, people who
for years have dealt with these medical problems and who are versed in
biology. Claiming that the experts are fools is like suggesting that
you should avoid anyone with demonstrated skills - based on that logic
you should be rejecting the advice of anyone with an education as if
they were somehow tainted by the process of formal education.
With respect to your claim that the burden rests with me, i suggest
you consider the problem that experts of all subjects face. Read the
literature on any subject about which you have considerable knowledge
and you will discover that the process of determining the viability of
any solution is very difficult. This is why most good solutions are
not accepted until they have been verified by a number of independent
sources, because even those who are very well trained can make
mistakes. This is why drugs cost so much, the burden of proof is on
the purveyor to justify the viability and safety of their approach.
I am glad for you that Buteyko has provided some help for you. I
believe that any good respiratory therapist could have provided you
with the same help. The purveyors of Buteyko are simply playing on
our tendency to believe that world must be ordered in a simple way to
meet our needs, and moreover, that we have control over our destiny.
The fact is that the world is very complex, so complex in fact that it
takes many years of study to begin to understand even the 'simple'
things in life. While we all would like to be able to provide for
ourselves without depending upon others, especially those whose
knowledge is so much greater than ours that we feel we are at their
mercies (like physicians), the fact is that life is simply not that
simple.
.... jeff
On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:59:05 +1200, Greg Day <g...@waikato.ac.nz>
wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have been following the buteyko debate for a while. It seems to me
>that the only those who have experienced a buteyko course and decided
>whether or not it has benefitted them can make claims concerning
>buteyko.
>
>I have been an asthmatic since very young. I have used a variety of
>medications for asthma, which helped control the symptoms admirably.
>However, I was still uncomfortable with these medications, for the
>simple fact that I was required to take medication.
>
>Doing a buteyko course was interesting. Firstly, I was offered an
>explanation into possible causes of asthma. I do not know whether this
>explanation is the 'real' explanation. However, it is more than was ever
>offered by my GP.
>
>Buteyko has helped me. Of that there is no question. I have not used
>ventolin for over 1 month, when normally I would use it 2+ times per
>day. Perhaps it is a faith thing. I feel it is unlikely. I wouldnt think
>faith would have much effect on an asthma attack.
>
>With regard to Jeffrey Fried, surely the burden of proof is yours? I
>would think that circumstantial evidence rests with buteyko. Please feel
>free to correct me. What is undeniable is that asthmatics have benefited
>from these techniques. What is questionable is whether the medical
>establishment can say that asthmatics have benefited from them? In my
>experience, 'treatment' for asthma involves taking medication, and then
>more medication, and then stronger medication and then more, stronger
>medication... perhaps your experience is different.
>
>Perhaps the physiological basis for Buteyko is completely wrong. I do
>not know. Not my area. However, writing off buteyko simply because it
>doesnt agree with the standard medical doctrine is surely stupid? If
>medical science concludes that the basis for buteyko is false, there
>must be research to explain the benefits. Conclusions of the form,
>'psychosomatic' are not valuable in this context and I feel should be
>discouraged.
>
>With regard to Colin Campbell, I quote
>
>>Intresting article until I found out that the author thinks that there
>>is a 'cure' for asthma.
>Interesting statement illustrating perfect closure of the mind from I
>person I supposed had a scientific background.
>
>I repeat, this is not my field. However, I submit that, there may be a
>cure for asthma. There may be a cure for cancer.
>We simply do not know. A cure cannot be ruled out until everything about
>the disease is known. We are far from this situation
>with regard to asthma. Is buteyko a cure for asthma? Im not sure. I did
>a buteyko course about 1 month ago. I still feel asthma like
>symptoms, but they can be controlled with breathing. Not medication.
>Perhaps this will go away in time.
>However, ruling out an article simply because you read a statement you
>do not know the answer to, and happen to disagree with seems very
>childlike.
>
>Or are you professing to know everything about asthma ?
>
>cu
>Greg
Vladimir Martincek
- Answer to Colin Campbell -
Jeffrey Fried wrote:
> > ... co...@pacbell.net wrote:
> > ...
> >This is fine as long as you recognise that you need to treat the asthma
> >with medications. Asthma and hyperventilation are different disorders.
I agree with you in the sense that if asthma and hyperventilation are
different disorders then certainly there is a need for medications to
treat asthma. On the other hand, person who has hyperventilation only,
and expects some magic medication to treat or even cure her/his "asthma"
might be waiting the whole life. I prefer to have the final responsibility
for my health in my own hands and for my "whatever it was" I lost illusion
of magic pills long time ago. It does not mean that I completely quit all
medications for the whole period of 10 months. I quit it at the beginning,
but after some time I rather followed Buteyko recommendation, and I
continued with inhaling the steroids, but less frequently, to control
the imflamation which went up and down for couple of months until I was
able to control it by exercises only. In the last 5 months the only thing
I took was vitamin C.
> >The Journal of the American Medical associations's site has a paper on
> >hyperventilation and asthma at:
> >http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/library/readroom/oc4154.htm
> >
> >There are a bunch of papers out there on the subject of hyperventilation
> >and asthma. Your best bet would be to go to: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/
> >choose the 'Medline' server and d a keyword search using "asthma AND
> >hyperventilation". You will get several hundred articles but once you
> >find one that discusses the information you need you can jump to 'find
> >related articles,'
Thank you for those references. I will try to find some time to read at
least some of those articles.
> >The problem is that Prof. Buteyko wrote before it was discovered that
> >asthma and hyperventilation were different things (also Mr. Buteyko's
> >research techniques were so poor that his paper can not be accepted as
> >being meaningfull).
Which paper ? Have you really read something from him ? In Russian ? :-)
I have read the editorial you were using as the only scientific reference
I was aware of about hyperventilation until now and that certainly is not
a research paper. Apparently I have to read more.
But I do not need to argue about which article is poor or not. For me
the pragmatic side was important. I do not even expect to convince any
so called "asthmatic" about the usefullnes of the method. I can see how
eager they are. :-)
Vladimir