Here's a thought
Ian Rastall
might be a bad person:
1. They internalize the feeling and it (automagically) turns into
worry/depression/what have you.
2. They seek reassurance that they're not bad.
3. They look for faults in others / criticize others, in order to
raise their own opinion of themselves.
I'm being general, but this is a specific realization I'm having about
my illness, that it's been pushed on me by parents (et al) who feel
like bad people, and take the third option. I seem to have taken the
first two, because it seems as if to take the third would be to be a
bad person!
How they've taken the third option? I think they've looked for ways to
justify their anger and criticism, basically by assuming that I'm a
bad person ... which has resulted in my being extremely passive,
especially IRL ... with the understanding that there *must* be a part
of me that really is bad, that I have to somehow eradicate.
I'm reminded of the Underpants Gnomes from South Park, whose business
model was the following:
1. Steal underpants.
2. ?
3. Profit.
So my understanding of my illness has been:
1. Bombarded by stressful situations.
2. ?
3. I feel anxiety, panic, and depression. I'm losing my memory
functions and my concentration. My mind races out of control.
I think the second part is that I receive and believe messages that
I'm a bad person. This is (pardonnez mon français) bullshit, and maybe
I'm not just speaking about my own problems here, but maybe someone
can relate, and realize that they're also being handed a steaming load
of emotional crap. I've met some bad people in my time, and I'm not
one of them, and I don't know of anyone here who fits that bill
either.
Ian
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Steve
"Ian Rastall" <idra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2aa02h0sqt60c3g2...@4ax.com...
That's an interesting observation. I'm no psychologist, so what I write here
are just my own personal ramblings, not to be taken as medical fact or even
correct.
I've a sneaking suspicion that the facts are a little more complicated than
you suggest. The complication comes with the age-old discussion of "nature
vs. nurture". In other words, how much of our make-up is inherited and how
much is brought about by our environment and influential people.
For instance, you suggest that if a person is fed negative ideas about
themselves, they believe them and take them to heart. That's nurture,
character being moulded by a person's environment. But nature also has to be
taken into account. A person who is, by nature, inward-looking, submissive
and open to suggestion may well react this way. On the other hand, however,
someone who is, by nature, thick-skinned, confident in themselves and
tending towards the "roughty-toughty" character would meet such suggestions
with either a tirade of expletives or a sharp kick to the dangly bits.
Obviously age comes into this as well. A young child bombarded by negative
messages is more likely to accept them than an adult, who hopefully knows
better than to believe everything people say to them and who has learned
through their life experiences what type of person they actually are.
I tend to think that both nurture and nature play their part in forming us
as people. Everyone has their limits as to how much criticism they can take,
depending on their nature. Criticism will have a varying effect depending on
a person's nature. But also, the absence or presence of criticism (nurture)
will have an effect on forming character.
The other thing to consider is the interaction of personalities. I think
you're right about people who criticise doing it often because they feel bad
about themselves and criticism shifts the focus on to someone else. If the
person being criticised is accepting of the criticism, they've found an easy
target for it and will continue. If, however, that person stands up to the
criticism and rejects it, the one doing the criticising is more likely to
find another victim. If they don't then either they feel justified in their
criticism or are just a pain in the ass.
The big question then comes: if I am of the accepting type of nature and
have been in an environment of criticism as a child/youngster, what can I do
about it now? Fortunately, we are very adaptable creatures with an ability
to learn new techniques and ways of thinking. So it is possible to change
the way in which we view our past experiences and our reactions to them.
Sometimes therapy can be a big help in doing this as we often are too set in
our ways, or the effects of our experiences have been too great, for us to
do it on our own. A trained outsider's view is needed to get things back
into perspective and to give us methods of changing our thinking.
A psychologist I heard about once said that some people go around with a
parent on their shoulder. They hear the old words they used to say to them
and the way that they were said. That's fine if that parent was an
encouraging, helpful person. But if they were critical, putting you down
etc. then that's what you hear in your mind. That parent needs to be knocked
off the shoulder so that you're free to discover yourself, make your own
decisions and mistakes without feeling that you just caused the biggest
disaster in the world. That's done with a change in thinking.
We're all here together, no-one more important than anyone else. Each of us
has an equal value and contribute to the world in our own ways. So why
should anyone feel less worthy than anyone else? Easier said than done, I
know. But that's the goal to aim for.
Good luck, Ian. I think in your shoes I would try some therapy for these
issues. Nothing heavy. It's just, as I say, getting a trained outsider's
view who can suggest some methods for changing your ways of thinking.
Steve.
Ian Rastall
wrote:
>Criticism will have a varying effect depending on
>a person's nature.
Hey Steve, I think you're making a good point. I often wonder if a
person's nature is determined by how they're nurtured, and, well,
would even suggest that that is so. Then we change, possibly, to
become the person we want to be ... but maybe that change is being
spurred on by some false assumptions about who we are.
>If, however, that person stands up to the
>criticism and rejects it, the one doing the criticising is more likely to
>find another victim. If they don't then either they feel justified in their
>criticism or are just a pain in the ass.
Well, personally, I always stand up to my mom when she starts in on
me, but it doesn't help. It's like standing up to someone sneezing on
you and giving you the common cold. It just seeps in.
>if I am of the accepting type of nature and
>have been in an environment of criticism as a child/youngster, what can I do
>about it now?
I think realize what the process is, and "umask" it, as it were.
>A psychologist I heard about once said that some people go around with a
>parent on their shoulder.
That's definitely true, and maybe even true for everyone in degrees.
(I love to think that we can find the common links between us.)
>Good luck, Ian.
Thanks, man.
>I think in your shoes I would try some therapy for these
>issues.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the right therapist. I've had to
sort of work things out on my own, because if I have to trust one pet
theory over another, I'll trust my own pet theories, since I know more
about my issues than anyone else. Maybe now that I can explain what's
going on, that would be helpful. Part of the problem is never knowing
what the problem is!
Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/
Chip
"Ian Rastall" <idra...@gmail.com> wrote
> I can think of three ways that people deal with the idea that they
> might be a bad person:
Ian, how do you define "bad"?
And who determines what is "good" or "bad"?
Chip
Ian Rastall
<NO_SPAM_...@highstream.net> wrote:
>how do you define "bad"?
A truly bad person? I would say someone who intentionally hurts
others, but that's just one specific definition. I think what's
important is that people all seem to walk around with these primal
messages buried deep in their psyches, and one of them is, "I am a bad
person." How do they define it? You see what I mean? They probably
don't define it, per se, they just feel that it's so.
>And who determines what is "good" or "bad"?
The person feeling like a bad person. They've determined that they're
bad in some way, although they probably don't know how. The bad people
I've run across, I mean truly bad people, had no conscience to speak
of, and probably didn't harbor such a complex.
My parents have this complex, they've passed it on to me through
various forms of abuse, and I'm just now coming to the realization
that it informs most of what I do. I really think the root of my
anxiety has been discovered, although where to go from there, I have
no idea. There is a shrink I can see at CMH, and will try to make an
appt. today, but that might not pan out. I really need to talk to
Sigmund Freud! :-)
Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/
Chip
"Ian Rastall" <idra...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > how do you define "bad"?
>
> A truly bad person?
No. How do you define "bad"?
> How do they define it?
No. I'm interested in how *you* define the word "bad"?
In your first post you stated: "there *must* be a part of me that really is
bad, that I have to somehow eradicate."
Chip
Ian Rastall
<NO_SPAM_...@highstream.net> wrote:
>No. How do you define "bad"?
>
>No. I'm interested in how *you* define the word "bad"?
Ugh. I can't argue right now.
Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/
Monarc...@gmail.com
<gently snipped>
:: I've met some bad people in my time, and I'm not
::one of them, and I don't know of anyone here who fits that bill
::either.
Dear Ian,
I`ve gone through periods where I felt I was a bad person too. I know I`m not.
I`m glad you know you aren`t either. We are good people :)
(((((Ian)))))
Jackie
~*~The light at the end of the tunnel is just the light of an oncoming train~*~
Ian Rastall
>I`ve gone through periods where I felt I was a bad person too. I know I`m not.
>I`m glad you know you aren`t either. We are good people :)
Thanks, Jackie. I guess it's a question of convincing the
subconscious, which will hold on to crummy ideas long after they've
expired. I had a therapist once who felt that once a complex was
exposed, it would go away. I don't think that's necessarily the case,
but it does seem to help just to identify what's going on.
I'm not sure I've mentioned this on here or not, although alluded to
it in this thread, that in the hospital once one of the therapists
talked about these most primal notions that we carry around with us.
She told us the most common of these basic, core ideas is "I'm not
good enough" or "I'm bad". This has always stuck with me, and makes a
lot of sense.
I find that when my concentration skips, and I have to stop doing
something, it's usually because what I'm doing reminds me of something
else, which brings up the notion of fault, blame, shame, etc. One
would think it isn't as simple as this, but the more I monitor it, the
more it seems to be the case. Likewise, if I get angry at someone, it
seems to be because they're sending me the message that I'm wrong in
some way ... wrong as in either incorrect, or bad, however you take
that to mean.
I feel like this whole idea of us vs. them stems from the concept that
we are made better by others being worse. The more I ponder this, the
more I see it all around me, especially in my other ng's, where people
are always arguing about politics et al. I see all this rage pointed
at a particular object, and wonder why their engine is running in the
red. What goes on underneath the rage? Probably a primal notion that
something is wrong with them, not so much the object of their hatred.
You can't very well tell that to someone, though. I remember a
conversation with a guy I know, where I told him, "You're the angriest
person I've ever met," and he wouldn't let me get out of the
conversation until I relented and told him that no, he wasn't an angry
guy. :-)
I just refuse to accept that mental illness can not be worked through,
and a solution found. Having my Abilify upped, as it just was, is
almost an insult ... and if I can find a solution, perhaps that
knowledge will help other people, too. Otherwise, what's the point of
trying at all? Perhaps we should just take our meds and resign
ourselves to the idea of never getting better. Ah, I don't think so.
:-)
Hope you're well,
Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/
Steve
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 06:24:09 -0600, "Steve" <s.m...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Criticism will have a varying effect depending on
>>a person's nature.
>
> Hey Steve, I think you're making a good point. I often wonder if a
> person's nature is determined by how they're nurtured, and, well,
> would even suggest that that is so. Then we change, possibly, to
> become the person we want to be ... but maybe that change is being
> spurred on by some false assumptions about who we are.
Yes, I hadn't thought about the long-term development of character, but I
think there is a gradual shift with age from being influenced by our
environment and elders to creating our own environment and making decisions
for ourselves to form our own characters into, as you say, the people we
want to be. Obviously there is some carry-over from our earlier environments
and influential elders, but basically we grow up and become independent.
It's the carry-over that can cause the problems if that's been less than
ideal.
>
>>If, however, that person stands up to the
>>criticism and rejects it, the one doing the criticising is more likely to
>>find another victim. If they don't then either they feel justified in
>>their
>>criticism or are just a pain in the ass.
>
> Well, personally, I always stand up to my mom when she starts in on
> me, but it doesn't help. It's like standing up to someone sneezing on
> you and giving you the common cold. It just seeps in.
I know the feeling. :(
>
>>if I am of the accepting type of nature and
>>have been in an environment of criticism as a child/youngster, what can I
>>do
>>about it now?
>
> I think realize what the process is, and "umask" it, as it were.
>
>>A psychologist I heard about once said that some people go around with a
>>parent on their shoulder.
>
> That's definitely true, and maybe even true for everyone in degrees.
> (I love to think that we can find the common links between us.)
>
>>Good luck, Ian.
>
> Thanks, man.
>
>>I think in your shoes I would try some therapy for these
>>issues.
>
> Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the right therapist. I've had to
> sort of work things out on my own, because if I have to trust one pet
> theory over another, I'll trust my own pet theories, since I know more
> about my issues than anyone else. Maybe now that I can explain what's
> going on, that would be helpful. Part of the problem is never knowing
> what the problem is!
Too true. It is a problem sometimes to find the right therapist. I hope
you're eventually successful - they do change jobs/areas and retire!! :)
All the best from Steve.
Ian Rastall
wrote:
>I think there is a gradual shift with age from being influenced by our
>environment and elders to creating our own environment and making decisions
>for ourselves to form our own characters
Ah, I wish I could finish the process! You're right, though ... that's
how it works, and it's a good point.
>Too true. It is a problem sometimes to find the right therapist. I hope
>you're eventually successful - they do change jobs/areas and retire!! :)
LOL. If only the turnover could be quicker. :-)
Hope you're well,
Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/
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