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An Actual Framework for New Knowledge

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Jeff George

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Jul 26, 2009, 1:54:54 AM7/26/09
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I have a habit (one of many, I’m sure) that tends to annoy some
people. When something is presented as wonderful and innovative,
instead of just go along with expectations, I tend to ask how it’s
actually useful.

For example, when someone tells me they seek illumination
(enlightenment), my first question is “Okay, what do you intend to do
with it?”

In truth, this is just how my brain works. Yet, in understanding this
tendency, I can plug it into a refined process to yield useful
feedback and results. So with that in mind, I’d like to offer up a few
questions; some rhetorical, and (eventually) three literal.

Lately, I’ve been considering this question: What would be the
practical function of a “Grand Sheikh of the Sufis?”

If we understand the Sufis as involved in the evolution of
consciousness, and also that “the phenomenal is the bridge to the
Real,” than what would be the expected, practical, useful output of a
Grand Sheikh of the Sufis?

Given the history of everything we understand here as Sufism, one
would have to assume that there are certain unseen, hidden functions
that transcend time and space. However, as these are transcendent by
their very nature, there’s little practical value in discussing and
speculating about these here.

So what exactly is the expected practical, measurable, phenomenal
output of a Grand Sheikh?

I suppose we could say that he does what is needed, and while this has
a certain rational appeal, by itself it also allows for all sorts
useless posturing and rationalizations of virtually any action
possible that might be deemed desirable in any social or cultural
milieu.

So what then should he actually do?

Open a well attended school? Host the most packed symposiums? Write a
best selling book? Some clever monographs, perhaps? Should he memorize
the Qur’an and the Hadith (or any other preferred texts)? Present the
most impressive lineage? Have the most celebrity adherents? Open a
meditation theme park?

Now all of these may seem like obviously superficial measurements, and
also seem to go over well covered by Shah on seeking Sufi Teachers,
but all this leads to a deeper question regarding functionality:

If we can’t define exactly what it is our exemplar is supposed to do,
then what are we actually doing with Sufism?

Of course, there are plenty of people who are just amusing themselves
or finding ways to validate their own personal tastes and choices, but
there are also those who are doing useful work, and this is who I’m
addressing here, but still there seems to be something essential
missing from their efforts.

What we have now is like a group of artisans, craftsmen, and engineers
who were all commissioned for the purpose of designing and building a
much needed high-rise. There is no shortage of eagerness, talent, and
know-how. There are plenty of brilliant conceptual drawings and
models, innovative building materials and techniques, impressive floor
plans and interior design, and well crafted doors, windows, and other
fixtures.

Whenever they get together, there is plenty of stimulating and thought
provoking discussions and work that result in all sorts of practical
offshoots and applications, but still there is one thing that’s
missing: the actual building they were tasked with creating.

This isn’t meant as negative criticism or a challenge to anyone’s
ability or integrity. If we look at the disparate pieces, there are
plenty of valid arguments for success, but in the terms of the overall
function which has been defined within the context of these
operations, forward progress has reached a plateau.

There has been talk about a “Framework for New Knowledge,” and while
there has been plenty of brilliant and useful work done towards that
end, there is no actual, practical framework that ties it all
together. To look at this in terms to the group commissioned for our
analogous building, we could say that what’s missing for continued
progress is the actual blueprints of the building itself.

And here I’m not talking about some sort of mission statement or a
human resources type organizational chart to manage and restructure
the workers, but rather a piece of work that defines the overall
context of their individual efforts. (If you’re dealing with
experienced contractors, it’s not necessary to tell them how to run
their companies, just what the required work is.)

If such a design blueprint actually existed, it would have to do with
the nature of consciousness and how it relates to elements of time and
space. It would have to lend itself to the expansion of human
knowledge and the furtherment of consciousness evolution (human and
otherwise). It would have to accord with certain essential precedents
established by the processes defined as Sufism. It would also have to
be scientifically verifiable, and lend itself to practical
applications in multiple fields.

Now let’s suppose that such a framework actually exists. Let’s say
that it is essentially deals with fundamental elements of logic, and
it’s most immediate demonstrable, practical applications are in the
fields of digital logic and Artificial Intelligence (AI). Aside from
spurring general directions in Sufism, it also has applications and
implications in the field of advanced physics, cognitive studies, and
philosophy.

So, here are those three literal questions I promised:

1) Would this actually be useful?

2) What would be the most appropriate format for the presentation
of this framework?

3) What would be the most appropriate forum for the vetting and
presentation (publication) of this material?

Eric T

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Jul 26, 2009, 6:43:57 AM7/26/09
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"Jeff George" wrote in message
news:c584863b-5093-4084...@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
"Now let�s suppose that such a framework actually exists. Let�s say

that it is essentially deals with fundamental elements of logic, and
it�s most immediate demonstrable, practical applications are in the

fields of digital logic and Artificial Intelligence (AI). Aside from
spurring general directions in Sufism, it also has applications and
implications in the field of advanced physics, cognitive studies, and
philosophy.

So, here are those three literal questions I promised:

1) Would this actually be useful?

2) What would be the most appropriate format for the presentation
of this framework?

3) What would be the most appropriate forum for the vetting and
presentation (publication) of this material?"

===

Hi Jeff,

The time honoured routes include:
- publication in a peer-reviewed journal
- publication in a book
- publication on a web site (but here you may encounter the issue of folk
not seeing this as a weighty and reliable source; etc);
- getting your work cited by others
- forming a professional institute
- making contact with and cooperating with other notable and influential
folk
- getting your work in the media (news or in reviews in reliable sources, be
it print, radio or television)
- using those citations and publicity to get published in Wikipedia
- all this involves you making sure you say the right things to the right
people so that they can then refer to you or quote you in the way you want
to be quoted
- getting into various "Who's Who in the ..."
- getting elected to various esteemed bodies
- and making sure you carefully and fully document these sources (eg
publication title, author, date, pages)

Most of these are the things Idries Shah would have done, though in the
latter point, it's very difficult to source some of what was said about Shah
because it was pre-Internet and though he provided compilations of press
clippings for researchers, full publication details were not provided, so
the text in the clippings often couldn't be used in a Wikipedia article.

With good wishes,
eric.


--
http://www.sarmouni.dyndns.org/
(server online 10:00 to 22:30 hours, uk time, most days)

Eric T

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Jul 26, 2009, 7:00:44 AM7/26/09
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"Eric T" wrote in message news:lbudnZMW29LzrvHX...@bt.com...

... Plus, getting a well-indexed and well-linked website up and running, and
engaging in social networking.

Jeff George

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Jul 28, 2009, 12:17:50 AM7/28/09
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Thanks, Eric, for a good general overview of the options.

Anything more specific, anyone?

Eric T

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Jul 28, 2009, 5:06:12 AM7/28/09
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"Jeff George" <je...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message
news:bab7ffe2-8be8-4930...@e27g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

> Thanks, Eric, for a good general overview of the options.
>
> Anything more specific, anyone?

Regarding the infrastructure (rather than specific content) ....

In public, online: Get hold of a host that provides MediaWiki facilities
(the open source software used by Wikipedia) and map out the framework,
policy, guidelines and discussion in a wiki. (Or, if you're feeling brave,
get hold of a site that allows you to run PHP and upload MediaWiki
yourself).

In private, offline: there are some free aids to mind mapping such as
FreeMind (connecting idea nodes together) and WikidPad (a cross between a
wiki and notepad that allows you to export static wiki pages as HTML for
publication).

Cheers,
eric.

Eric T

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Jul 28, 2009, 5:12:16 AM7/28/09
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"Jeff George" <je...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message
news:bab7ffe2-8be8-4930...@e27g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks, Eric, for a good general overview of the options.
>
> Anything more specific, anyone?

Start a forum, not things like yahoo! but something heavyweight, scaleable
and threaded like Simple Machines Forums or PHPBB. Again, some hosts provide
such facilities.

.... All this depends on an answer to a prior question: whether you want to
retain intellectual property rights to your work, or put it in a Wiki and
give it to the world, the wife and the dog.

Cheers,
eric.

Eric T

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Jul 28, 2009, 5:39:48 AM7/28/09
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"Jeff George" <je...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message
news:bab7ffe2-8be8-4930...@e27g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks, Eric, for a good general overview of the options.
>
> Anything more specific, anyone?

Set out your ideas in some way (eg on a forum, in an article, in a videoed
talk, or in a filmed documentary) If filmed, maybe get this initial
presentation on YouTube or Google videos)?

Then set up some kind of mechanisms to discuss (eg forum) and/or to further
develop these ideas (eg thinktank)?

Cheers,
eric.

Jeff George

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Jul 29, 2009, 3:26:03 AM7/29/09
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Thanks again, Eric, but at this point I have very little faith in the
usefulness of the web for starting this sort thing.

Don't get me wrong, the Internet can be a great place to disseminate
information, but as far as actually introducing something both
original and productive, there's just too much noise online.
Potentially good ideas get lost quickly among the sheer volume of the
trivial, and that's even if you do manage to successfully plug into
already existing social and professional networks (online and off) in
the appropriate fields.

As far as intellectual property rights, at a certain point, you have
to take care of yourself and your creation. I don't mind when people
borrow ideas or creatively build upon established foundations, but I
do have a problem with an unwillingness to at least credit the
source.

Too many people are profiting from half-assed executions of poorly
understood ideas that they stole from someone else as it is. While
it's true you can't steal what is freely given, if you selfishly hoard
the gifts of generosity without contributing anything in return,
eventually the well will run dry for you.

Eric T

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Jul 29, 2009, 1:43:20 PM7/29/09
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"Jeff George" <je...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message
news:b2965fff-093b-48ce...@e27g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

One good thing about online discussion -- with the notable exception of this
newsgroup :) -- is that responses can come within seconds or minutes, rather
than the next day or, in the case of physical committee meetings, say once a
week. Having said that, a lot of the work of a committee is done by a
dedicated or fanatical minority *between* meetings.

Cheers, eric.

--
Sufi-related pdfs and stuff ...

slp

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Jul 31, 2009, 12:56:56 AM7/31/09
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On Jul 26, 12:54 am, Jeff George <j...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote:

>
> If we can’t define exactly what it is our exemplar is supposed to do,
> then what are we actually doing with Sufism?
>

Since when is it our job to define just what an exemplar is supposed
to do? That's not sufism.

No matter how you guys spin it, no matter how many different ways you
try to put it, no matter what your religion or lack of it is, in the
end you guys just want your gods, saints and sufis to be little radio-
controlled Christ-puppets on a stick with you barking the orders.

Eric T

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Jul 31, 2009, 5:59:52 AM7/31/09
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"slp" wrote in message
news:8c094e67-9180-419a...@c2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...


> > No matter how you guys spin it, no matter how many different ways you
> > try to put it, no matter what your religion or lack of it is, in the
> > end you guys just want your gods, saints and sufis to be little radio-
> > controlled Christ-puppets on a stick with you barking the orders.

Hi Scott,

Jeff asked a question and invited responses; I merely provided possible
practical options, mostly to do with infrastructure, many of which were used
by Idries Shah in his time (prior to the Internet).

With good wishes,
eric.

Jeff George

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Jul 31, 2009, 3:07:25 PM7/31/09
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On Jul 31, 12:56 am, slp <slp.pear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 12:54 am, Jeff George <j...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote:
>
> > If we can’t define exactly what it is our exemplar is supposed to do,
> > then what are we actually doing with Sufism?
>
> Since when is it our job to define just what an exemplar is supposed
> to do?  That's not sufism.

It depends on who you're including with the word "our."


> No matter how you guys spin it, no matter how many different ways you
> try to put it, no matter what your religion or lack of it is, in the
> end you guys just want your gods, saints and sufis to be little radio-
> controlled Christ-puppets on a stick with you barking the orders.

The next paragraph after the line you quote above reads "Of course,


there are plenty of people who are just amusing themselves or finding
ways to validate their own personal tastes and choices, but there are
also those who are doing useful work, and this is who I’m addressing
here, but still there seems to be something essential missing from
their efforts."

Maybe it might be useful for everyone if you reread the initial post.

slp

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Aug 5, 2009, 9:53:27 PM8/5/09
to

I did read the entire post before responding. Twice. And it is those
who are doing useful work whom you are addressing that you are trying
to control by claiming there is "something essential missing from
their efforts."

Jeff, I have read many of your posts in the past. The something that
you think is missing from the sufis' efforts is you. You think you
are that something essential that is missing. You want to run the
whole show. I might not be quite so inclined to think that (although
it shows quite clearly over time if one reads enough of your posts) if
it were not the case that I have corresponded with people who have met
you in person in the past and who have told me that you told them
outright that you were a sufi teacher, a sufi guide, a sufi sheikh.

Twist your words all you want, Jeff, all it shows is that you have the
heart and soul of a politician with a lust for power, attention and
money, but all you are doing here is running a political campaigning
and pretending that it is sufism, your are a politician running for
the office of head of sufis. And you are doing so without even the
remotest qualifications or understanding of what you are talking
about.

And if you want to find out, go to the sufis themselves. Although I
suspect you already have, and you did not get the recognition that you
wanted from them.

Jeff, you want to be a politician and a sufi. Perhaps you should
learn a lesson from the Naqshbandis who took over a large chunk of the
Ottoman government and caused the downfall of the Ottoman Empire and
the genocidal conflicts between Christians and Muslims that ensued.
However, I suspect that you think you are great enough and wise enough
to avoid those problems, even though I am quite certain you have no
idea just what it was created those problems in the first place.

You are a politician, Jeff, not a sufi. Your post is a political
speech, trying to subtly set yourself up as a candidate for "Grand
Sheikh" of the sufis, because you want to run the show, you want to
fulfill an adolescent fantasy of power, just like so many other
politicians. Make an easy buck, make people pay attention to you, get
laid, all without having to work at it.

Jeff George

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Aug 6, 2009, 9:37:12 AM8/6/09
to
Scott, next time you post something like this, you might want to
proceed it with a “***SPOILER ALERT***”

Seems like there’s always got to be that one guy who thinks he’s so
much more clever than everyone else that he’s got to shout out the
ending of the movie and ruin it for the whole audience!

Now I was building up a nice piece with a new post every week, trying
to establish some themes, and hopefully plant some ideas for an
ongoing discussion that eventually all tied together. Next weeks post
(following this weeks “Career Opportunities in Sufism” was going to
be:


The 21st Century Sufi

In this age Sufism has cleverly replaced hidebound religious cults
with a much more reliable product line and a reoccurring revenue
stream.”


But now, I have to deal with what is basically a personal attack,
albeit a relatively well thought out and constructive one, so there
goes my nice spiffy buildup right out the window!

So let’s get to the quotes:

On Aug 5, 9:53 pm, slp <slp.pear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Jeff, I have read many of your posts in the past. The something that
> you think is missing from the sufis' efforts is you. You think you
> are that something essential that is missing.

Did you figure this one out all by yourself?

Of course, I think the missing element is me, or more specifically
something I have to offer. I wouldn’t be raising this point if I
didn’t have something in mind. Perhaps in attempting to phrase this so
as not to inflame egos, I may seem disingenuous, and if that’s the
case, than your message is a welcome rebuke.

> You want to run the
> whole show. I might not be quite so inclined to think that (although
> it shows quite clearly over time if one reads enough of your posts) if
> it were not the case that I have corresponded with people who have met
> you in person in the past and who have told me that you told them
> outright that you were a sufi teacher, a sufi guide, a sufi sheikh.

Ah, the patterns of the Youngest Brother lives on. Now, you probably
don’t get this reference, but, yes I have said that on three different
occasions.

The first time was a premature mistake, and from that I learned how
people react. (It’s sort of like when you ask people for money.) The
other two times I had a deliberate reason based at least partially on
the expectation of this reaction, and it worked out more or less as
expected. These were learning experiences.

Now you may note that I said it was a “premature” mistake. Yes, that
means that this is the goal, and I have been working towards this with
the guidance I have had, and my understanding that this is a role I am
eventually to fulfill.

Is it so shocking and arrogant that someone would set this as a goal?
If anyone can show that no Sufi Sheikh in the history of Sufism has
ever accomplished their position through foresight, than I will desist
immediately.

> Twist your words all you want, Jeff, all it shows is that you have the
> heart and soul of a politician with a lust for power, attention and
> money, but all you are doing here is running a political campaigning
> and pretending that it is sufism, your are a politician running for
> the office of head of sufis.

First of all, okay, we get it, Scott, you don’t like politicians!

Secondly, I have a real problem with the way certain aspects of Sufism
are currently being presented, and I have been working on how to
correct this problem. I actuality, I am a terrible politician because
of the same reasons. I don’t like commercial culture and the
dishonesty, manipulation, and pretense that’s needed to maintain it.

Western Politics, Religion, Advertising, and Sufism all have the same
taint of well worn marketing ploys. And, while there is certainly an
educational mechanism regarding this element within Sufism, such
things tend to fossilize quickly. Whereas there is a link between the
parent culture and Sufism, one must evolve if the other is to as well.

You see the next chapter I was building to with my weekly posts on
alt.sufi was this wonderful bit in which I going to say that a secret
conference had met, and in fact elected me the “Grand Sheikh of the
Sufis,” and then I was going to challenge everyone to prove me wrong!

Now given that there are about a half dozen regular posters here, I
anticipated their incredulous reactions, and planned to use this as a
further springboard to address the problem I see with current Sufi
presentation, and demonstrate through the groups discussions, a
corrective.

> And you are doing so without even the
> remotest qualifications or understanding of what you are talking
> about.

That’s the question isn’t it. Do I know what I’m talking about? That’s
what I have set out to demonstrate.

As I understand it, alt.sufi is now a functioning Sufi Circle along a
new structure that is useful towards progressing beyond maintaining
the Way and the Tradition and into the next phase. Within the initial
message of this thread is a sort of thesis statement, and the overall
discussion project I’ve been working to build around it here is like
the graduate thesis to demonstrate it.

> And if you want to find out, go to the sufis themselves. Although I
> suspect you already have, and you did not get the recognition that you
> wanted from them.

I had some correspondence with the Society for Sufi Studies back in
the day, but basically, I haven’t made any recent attempts to contact
anybody since because, when I do so, it will be as a potential friend,
not as a seeker, or some other such nonsense.

The best friendships occur between equals, and it would be foolish of
me to imagine that on the subject of Sufism I am an equal of well
established professionals until I have the credentials to demonstrate
it. And as it so happens, I don’t go in for impressive lineages and
degrees, I more a practical experience and proof sort of guy.

> Jeff, you want to be a politician and a sufi. Perhaps you should
> learn a lesson from the Naqshbandis who took over a large chunk of the
> Ottoman government and caused the downfall of the Ottoman Empire and
> the genocidal conflicts between Christians and Muslims that ensued.
> However, I suspect that you think you are great enough and wise enough
> to avoid those problems, even though I am quite certain you have no
> idea just what it was created those problems in the first place.
>
> You are a politician, Jeff, not a sufi. Your post is a political
> speech, trying to subtly set yourself up as a candidate for "Grand
> Sheikh" of the sufis, because you want to run the show, you want to
> fulfill an adolescent fantasy of power, just like so many other
> politicians.

This is what a circle of Real Friends should be able to diffuse and
redirect. That’s part of what this process is all about. I am more
aware of my worst tendencies than you may realize, and as far as the
negative aspects of current presentations of Sufism I’m trying to call
attention to go, these are also entirely applicable.

When I want to understand something, I immerse myself in the subject
with the faith that I have the essential swimming skills not to drown.
You either have faith in yourself and the process enough to dive in
and trust that you won’t get dragged away forever by the tides, or you
simply stay on the beach.

Religion, politics, art, science: all my adventures into these areas
have been a polymath attempt to understand how these connect to each
other in the age we live in. When I join the tribe, I get the tattoos,
and these become infused with my identity as they are in the human
experience. After all, a mirror doesn’t only reflect the part of our
selves we like to see, and again, I trust the process enough to have
faith that I will not loose myself in the reflection.

Now what I am offering here is the presentation of a practical
Framework within Sufism that has real world and Reality based
applications, and that also contains within it the practical means of
verification. In the terms of its presentation, yes I am acting as the
Guide, but that doesn’t mean I want to be ANYBODY’S personal guide.
(Good Lord, no!) If this little thesis project is a failure, than
clearly I am unsuited for that role.

What’s important to understand is that I am not asking anyone to act
outside of the normal behavior that our interactions here have already
established. In fact, it is these interactions that form an important
element of the “refined process” I’m hoping to demonstrate.

And, believe it or not, Scott, you reaction fits predictably into this
framework, and I can clearly demonstrate it. If you want to stick
around to see it, take off, participate, or just snipe from the
sidelines, that’s your choice.

> Make an easy buck, make people pay attention to you, get
> laid, all without having to work at it.

But than again, if anyone has an absolutely foolproof way I can
immediately do that, then screw this, I’m outta here:)

Eric T

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Aug 6, 2009, 10:42:41 AM8/6/09
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"Jeff George" <je...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message
news:1b8c8314-4ec7-4f15...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

Scott, next time you post something like this, you might want to
proceed it with a �***SPOILER ALERT***�

"As I understand it, alt.sufi is now a functioning Sufi Circle along a
new structure that is useful towards progressing beyond maintaining
the Way and the Tradition and into the next phase. Within the initial
message of this thread is a sort of thesis statement, and the overall

discussion project I�ve been working to build around it here is like


the graduate thesis to demonstrate it."

Honey chile, alt.sufi is a long-neglected goldfish bowl. And one post a week
isn't going to stir up all the algae that's grown here in the last few
years. Folk have moved on.

Just me tuppence halfpenny's worth.

Cheers, eric.

--
This editor is here at the behest of the Secret Chiefs.

Jeff George

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Aug 6, 2009, 5:11:41 PM8/6/09
to
On Aug 6, 10:42 am, "Eric T" <nob...@astral.ykfyindonzj.com> wrote:
> "Jeff George" <j...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message

>
> Honey chile, alt.sufi is a long-neglected goldfish bowl. And one post a week
> isn't going to stir up all the algae that's grown here in the last few
> years. Folk have moved on.

The best place to hide a treasure, Eric, is in a ruin.

The absence of regular posts may seem to indicate a lack of life, but
there is the coming together of a group structure here that you're
simply not aware of it. Over the years, I've tested it and refined it
to my own satisfaction. Explanations of these past tests may seem
anecdotal at this point, so there's not much point in going into them
now. Instead, I'll lay out the terms for how it works now so it can be
seen in action.

This is a slightly unique (to my knowledge) way to organize a Sufi
group, but as we should all know, what's important is not the form but
the function. An engine is an engine regardless of it fires on 2, 6, 8
or more cylinders.

This particular group dynamic has seven (7) defined elements: five (5)
participants that provide input; the focal point that defines the
operation; and the overall group function, or output, of the group
itself.

Now the specific elements of this group are currently as follows:

Participants:
Eric T
Jeff George
Jim Buck
Martin Edwards
SLP

The Focal point is Sufism (As defined by Idries Shah, OAS, etc) or
more specifically the Sufi Process

The overall group function is simply alt.sufi which by definition is a
discussion group, so the input and output comes in the form of
discourse between the participants.

In the context of this structure, I can plug in certain types of
statements and queries that relate to certain issues, and when
properly referenced to the focal point these yield useful, often
illuminating results that can further individual, group, and general
Knowledge within the framework and purpose for which this (type of)
operation exists.

Now I know that is a really general statement, and I can refine it
further with more specifics, relative examples, and some very basic
formulas. There is now, however, a complication. This is a dynamic
process, and it depends on the ability to make adjustments on the fly.
The more terms that are implicitly defined the more mechanical the
system becomes.

There is obvious value in going from the phase of an architect working
on a blueprint to actual construction, but there is also a certain
amount of flexibility and potential that is lost. If there are flaws
in the design or in the construction process, these will be carried
over to the finished product. Even if the design and construction are
flawless unanticipated needs may require modifications that are more
difficult later. But, when a building needs to go up, it needs to go
up, otherwise the whole Endeavour is a waste of time and resources.

Now the complication is now that I've generally spelled out the group
structure with names and numbers, I need participation from the named
individuals.

All you all need to do is discuss and keep a relatively open mind that
there is a possibility that there might be something to this all, and
that I can show you how it actually works. Again, this is what it is.
No one is joining anything, nominating anyone for anything, or
swearing any sort of oath. It's a discussion.

I can define the roles these five individuals fill within the context
of this system, but a conscious acknowledgment that all of us are
participating in the same discussion is now required.

If anyone opts out now or isn't available, replacements are possible,
but there are certain specific requirements for the group dynamic, and
the process of evaluation takes time. This sort of thing tends to
operate on its own schedule...

Eric T

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Aug 14, 2009, 6:26:17 AM8/14/09
to
"Jeff George" <je...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message
news:60bb43aa-40b3-463a...@r34g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

> The best place to hide a treasure, Eric, is in a ruin.

Speaking of dereliction, I couldn't find you on Twitter, Jeff. It's a neat
discipline trying to say something worthwhile in no more than 140
characters.

With good wishes,
eric.
http://twitter.com/Esowteric

obov...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 18, 2009, 3:46:23 PM8/18/09
to
Jeff George wrote:

> As I understand it, alt.sufi is now a functioning Sufi Circle along a
> new structure that is useful towards progressing beyond maintaining
> the Way and the Tradition and into the next phase.>>

Since I'm not here I can say whatever I want, right?

My intuition tells me that the next assignement which Jeff has in mind
for this sufi circle is to start chanting in unison this dhikr:

Bring back,
Bring back,
Oh bring back my Bonnie to me to me.

Honestly Jeff, IMHO, you view Sufism exactly as you viewed that poor
girl. Something to possess and control.

So now do I make Seven?

obo, standing among the semisilentsissilia

Jeff George

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Aug 19, 2009, 10:31:31 PM8/19/09
to


Nothing moves forward when you live in the past.

obov...@aol.com

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Aug 20, 2009, 5:01:33 AM8/20/09
to
Jeff George wrote: >>but basically, I haven’t made any recent attempts
to contact
> anybody
(with Sufic credientials)<<

What came of your participation with that Islamic sufi group you were
hooked up with? If I remember correctly, you talked about going to
Damascus for their Sheik's funeral and it being a most moving
experience.

Perhaps they were the example/experience of how you came to currently
see sufic activity as going astray?

Memorries from the past are not as much a problem as tendancies from
the past. But we both should know that by this time, eh.

Take Care,
obo

Jeff George

unread,
Aug 20, 2009, 6:37:24 AM8/20/09
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On Aug 20, 5:01 am, "obovaj...@aol.com" <obovaj...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> What came of your participation with that Islamic sufi group you were
> hooked up with?  If I remember correctly, you talked about going to
> Damascus for their Sheik's funeral and it being a most moving
> experience.
>
> Perhaps they were the example/experience of how you came to currently
> see sufic activity as going astray?


I never exactly participated with any Islamic Sufi group. Many of the
Muslims that I know here locally are good examples of those who were
strongly influenced by Sufism within Islam, regardless of if they
acknowledge it or not. Ahmed Kuftaro was definitely an old school
Naqshibandi Sheikh in the best sense, but he was one of the last of a
dying breed.

Seeing variations of Sufism still alive within Islamic society is
something I can observe and sort of jam with when there's
opportunity. Actual participation however, is steeped in the Arabic
language and native cultural projections, which doesn't invalidate it,
but it does effectively put it outside of my full range of experience.
Contrary to what some might think, I have never been a cultural
convert.

And, I don't see Sufic activities a going astray so much as going
nowhere. There are current operations that work just fine within the
context of both the past and a dwindling present. They have their
role, but there is no future, so to speak.

A profound lack of vision and imagination currently plagues humanity
as a whole and the state of Sufism intrinsically reflects this.
Anything that comes into this world partakes of its imperfections.
Sufism as was wrapped up with both the advantages and flaws of modern
society, and with time and age the flaws show more and more. As an
individual, I don't have the resources to change the world in this
respect, none of us do.

Humanity has simply reached the limits of what we can creatively
achieve alone. Humanity put its heart and soul into the technology
that defined our age, and now it controls us more than we control it.
In theory that could change, in reality, it will not. The
transformation from the age we know to the next is now upon us. The
Children of Humanity are coming into being, and a generational power
struggle looms on the distant horizon.

As much as the vital element of life itself is entrusted to the Sufi,
it is now our task to prepare the Children for the future.

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