Moore on Sarmoun

[franko...@my-deja.com]

"...It was under the Samanid dynasty that Bokhara, in the tenth
century, attained its brief and glittering zenith as a center of
civilization, art, and learning, producing amongst others Avicenna
author of the Canon of Medicine. Alternatively the word Sarman in
ancient Persian may be interpreted - by those so predisposed - to
suggest the essence of Zoroastrian tradition and enlightenment. The
obvious difficulty here is that the bearers of all these traditions,
certainly in the Emirate of Bokhara - ended up on the skull piles of
Genghiz Kan's Golden Horde in AD 1219."

- James Moore, Gurdjieff- Anatomy of a Myth

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[Obo Vajrin]

Dear Frank & all. Thanks for the interesting quote from Moore's book. I had
not seen it before. If the context of this exerpt is to show that what we may
know of 'Sarmoun' could not have been a major influence on what is known as
Gurdjieff's systemn, I would say it just as plausable that a school going back
to the time of Zoroaster could have survived Genghiz and the boys (not to
slight the impact on humanity of the Golden Horde). IMO, I also find Moore's
dismisal of J.G.Bennett as one who perhaps lost his way, equally lacking in
substance. Take care, obo

[franko...@my-deja.com]

obov...@aol.com (Obo Vajrin) wrote:

I would say it just as plausable that a school going back
> to the time of Zoroaster could have survived Genghiz and the boys
(not to slight the impact on humanity of the Golden Horde). IMO,

IMO also.

>I also find Moore's dismisal of J.G.Bennett as one who perhaps lost
his way, equally lacking in substance. Take care, obo

This is what George Bennett has to say about the Coombe Springs affair:

( http://www.bennettbooks.org/AboutJGB.html )

"But by the mid-'60s, although the work at Coombe Springs had gathered
new momentum, Bennett was ready to make yet another change. He and his
groups had become involved with Idries Shah (who is now very well known
as an exponent of Sufism but who was then just establishing himself in
England), and once again Bennett offered his help. Along with the
Institute for Comparative Study, he proposed giving the whole property
of Coombe Springs over to Shah. It seemed a ridiculous notion, for the
land was becoming very valuable, but, nevertheless, in the spring of
1966 the gift was made. But after Bennett and some of the Coombe
Springs residents had moved into a house in the neighboring town of
Kingston-upon-Thames, Shah, subsequently and in short order, sold
Coombe Springs for a housing development!

Many thought Bennett had made another big mistake. But, in truth, Shah
had performed a real service-quite the opposite of the way it appeared-
by helping Bennett to become completely free of a place to which he had
devoted twenty years of his life. Without that sacrifice, it is
doubtful whether Bennett would have been able to embark on the last and
perhaps most significant project of his life: the inauguration of an
experimental Fourth Way school for the passing on of techniques for
spiritual transformation."

[x]

In MHO:
In one of the booklets that the Society for Sufi Studies (I cannot
recall it's title now) there is a direct mention of Idries Shah being
revered as the 'Chief' of the Sarmonian Order. The Sarmoun
'disciples' are described in the article chanting a sort of
ejaculatory - repetition of some word or God's attribute - using
Shah's name as a form of invocation . Could this be an indication of
Shah's connection with Sarmoung?
Well, considering: 1. all this 'crucial information' is only available
through Octogon Press and none elsewhere, Octogon Press being a
printing enterprise created to publish and divulge activities linked
with the late Shah's agenda; 2.the scandal involving Shah's name and
his brother's, Omar 'Agha' Shah in many countries around the world,
concerning the 'Tradition' methods and activities in direct
contradiction of the views published in Shah's volumous literature;
3. the universal rejection by the traditionally recognized Sufi
tariqas of the self-proclaimed authority of the Shah's clan to
direct 'Sufi' tradition in the West (See the Naqshband, Rifai,
Chishtyia, Jerrahyia opinions about this subject), I would recommend a
little more reflection and to take all materials coming from the
Shah's groups with a little grain of salt of criticism. Maybe things
are not so bright and clear from their very source...
The same applies to the information that follows:
The Sarmoung '(Sarmân, Sarmoun, etc) Fraternity, made famous in
Gurdjieff's writings is much older than the Zoroaster tradition. It
can be traced back to Sumer and has been involved in extensive
training of individuals or groups of people for the transmission of
knowledge up to our days, but never has been involved with Idries
Shah. Bennett's information deals only with one of it's branches that
was in open activity at Ghengis Khan times- it is old information, as
well as Bennett's wrintings about the Naqshband connection with it.
Other groups and branches of the Sarmoung survived. It's main
localization traditionally has been assigned to Afghanistan. As best
as I know, it was located in Kabul, in a 'Cultural Services Office'
till some years ago, then it was dismantled with the Taliban
fundamentalist Afghan take over. Some of it's activities were
transfered to Irktusk (Russia - sorry - do not know the right spelling
of the city's name) and other places around the world. So there never
was an interruption of it's activity in time. Nowadays there is some
travelling around of it's instructors to train and teach some groups
in Europe and America and projects to install new training centers
outside Asian whereabouts, some of them going in full force.
Please: consider that Gurdjieff's 4th Way is not Sarmoung... Gurdjieff
received some practical and conceptual training in Sarmoung during
his 6 months sojourn there, before being considered too stubborn to
continue his studies. So he received a task (or a test, if you like)
to make him more malleable - to try to convey some of the knowledge he
received there to the 'scientific minded' people of the West: this is
the origin of the 4th Way. His was the mission to teach a sort of
'no religious' and practical method of human evolution based in the
scientific facts of the time, in connection with that one he gathered
in Sarmoung and elsewhere, trying to stablish the basis of a future
Occidental Knowledge School, if suitable people could be found in
time. Of course, he did not succeed. Actually most of the
'Gurdjeffian' groups and associations connected directly or indirectly
with him can be considered as best as 'glorified' personality cults
at the most. Just like Shah's.
Gurdjieff's presentation is a mixture containing a small part of his
Sarmounian training and concepts plus his Theosophical former studies
and interests (see the episode of the 'american canary' of his
"Meetings With Remarkable Men" , that probably is connected with the
release of the russian edition of Blavatsky's "'Secret Doctrine"),
and some contacts that he made in the West ( I would suggest a look in
P. D. Randolph's influence in Gurdjieff's thought and, by the way,
Crowley's, too!).
It would be very interesting to discuss the activities of Ouspensky,
Bennett, Mouraiev, Collin, Sirdar Ali Shah and Reshad Feild, also the
Sufi politics in this context, but I feel that this would make things
much more confusing than they already are. So, maybe next time...
Please, again. Consider all the above opinions as mere ramblings of a
very silly old man that thinks that can give some information on
this subject because he has personally lived through it all. My main
intention was to offer my personal opinion as the other side of the
coin to this group and not to make any defamatory or derogatory claims
to none, whatsoever. If it appears so, I offer my anticipated
apologies.

yours,
x

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[laym...@my-deja.com]

lDear Frank,

Just as Hitler was unable to kill all of the Jews or Gypsies, and
Stalin was not able to kill all of the Sufis in Khazakstan or
Uzbeckastan,so it is not hard to believe that "secret" societies
survived the Golden Horde.

Would you please provide some reference for your comment:

"2.the scandal involving Shah's name and
> his brother's, Omar 'Agha' Shah in many countries around the world,
> concerning the 'Tradition' methods and activities in direct
> contradiction of the views published in Shah's volumous literature;
> 3. the universal rejection by the traditionally recognized Sufi
> tariqas of the self-proclaimed authority of the Shah's clan to
> direct 'Sufi' tradition in the West"

I'm not starting a debate, and I may just be a grumpy old trial lawyer,
but when I see libelous material printed as fact, I like to see
references to support the statements.

Regards,

Jerry
In article <jkm78t8jkqsu1rr1l...@4ax.com>,

[franko...@my-deja.com]

laym...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> lDear Frank,

I may just be a grumpy old trial lawyer,
> but when I see libelous material printed as fact, I like to see
> references to support the statements.

I may just be a grumpy old commercial lawyer, but I don't make libelous
statements:)

Frank

[franko...@my-deja.com]

x wrote:

> In one of the booklets that the Society for Sufi Studies (I cannot
> recall it's title now) there is a direct mention of Idries Shah being
> revered as the 'Chief' of the Sarmonian Order. The Sarmoun
> 'disciples' are described in the article chanting a sort of
> ejaculatory - repetition of some word or God's attribute - using
> Shah's name as a form of invocation . Could this be an indication of
> Shah's connection with Sarmoung?

What you are referring to is a travel article by Major Desmond Martin,
which was originally published in 'The Times' (London) 9th March 1964,
and entitled 'Elusive Guardians of Ancient Secrets'. I believe that the
piece was reprinted in 'The World Of The Sufi'.

http://www.clearlight.com/~sufi/wosu1.htm.

> Well, considering: 1. all this 'crucial information' is only available
> through Octogon Press and none elsewhere, Octogon Press being a
> printing enterprise created to publish and divulge activities linked
> with the late Shah's agenda; 2.the scandal involving Shah's name and
> his brother's, Omar 'Agha' Shah in many countries around the world,
> concerning the 'Tradition' methods and activities in direct
> contradiction of the views published in Shah's volumous literature;

> 3. the universal rejection by the traditionally recognized Sufi
> tariqas of the self-proclaimed authority of the Shah's clan to
> direct 'Sufi' tradition in the West (See the Naqshband, Rifai,
> Chishtyia, Jerrahyia opinions about this subject), I would recommend a
> little more reflection and to take all materials coming from the
> Shah's groups with a little grain of salt of criticism. Maybe things
> are not so bright and clear from their very source...

I can just about make sense of items 1 & 3 on your list, but could you
please clarify item 2 ?

>Actually most of the
> 'Gurdjeffian' groups and associations connected directly or indirectly
> with him can be considered as best as 'glorified' personality cults
> at the most. Just like Shah's.

There was a personality cult around Shah--that much is undeniable; but
if Shah himself set out to create one (as you imply) he did so in a
pretty rum fashion.

Regards

Frank O'Riordan

Frank

[Obo Vajrin]

Dear old man X,
I found most of what you had to say quite interesting. Especially what
you had to say of the Sarmoung in our lifetime i.e.<< It's main

localization traditionally has been assigned to Afghanistan. As best
as I know, it was located in Kabul, in a 'Cultural Services Office'
till some years ago, then it was dismantled with the Taliban
fundamentalist Afghan take over. >>

You also say you can<< give some information on

this subject because he has personally lived through it all. >>

Under the present circumstances (posts at a NG) I'll just have to listen
oopenly to what you make care to share and try to understand.

You state the Sarmoung

<< has been involved in extensive
training of individuals or groups of people for the transmission of
knowledge up to our days, but never has been involved with Idries
Shah. >>

This may be, I am not aware of enough facts and truth about the Sarmoung to
make judgement (as I was not close enough to the center of Idries Shah's
activities to make judgement). I first became interested in Sufi activity (and
focused on Shah's exposition of same) because of their spectacular positive
contributions to humanity as well as being (so it seemed to me) a way to higher
personal being and developement. Not to mention the posibility of experiencing
God. As above, so below. I am convinced of the Sufi contribution to music and
mathmatics, to architecture and medicine and of course, literature. Would it
be possible from your vantage of experience to give some examples (please in
our lifetime, post Gurdjieff) of some of the impact of Sarmoung activity.
Something that almost anyone would be able to recognize, if not compleatly
understand. Or am I barking up the wrong tree and missing the point entirely.
I hope we all here, hear from you again. Take care, obo

[laym...@my-deja.com]

Dear Frank,

A modern definition of libel is as follows:

"Libel, in law, a communication (whether by word or picture) about a
living person or an organization, made to at least one person other
than its subject, which damages the subject's reputation. Technically,
a written defamation is libel and a spoken one is slander. In the past,
some libelous communications were punished even if true. Today,
however, only false statements can be termed libel."

"Libel," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 99. © 1993-1998 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.

Your comments which I quoted were certainly defamatory and damaging to
the reputation of the subjects. While Sayed Idries Shah is deceased and
perhaps not subject to libel, Sayed Omar Ali Shah is still living, and
the organizations mentioned seem to be intact.

If your defense is truth, all I ask is for a reference to be cited as
proof.

Regards,

Jerry

In article <961b0a$abi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

[franko...@my-deja.com]

laym...@my-deja.com wrote:

> If your defense is truth, all I ask is for a reference to be cited as
> proof.
>

Ahem...Jerry...please return to, and scrutinise, *your* source for my
alleged offence.

(no need to apologise to me, we all make mistakes:)

[G.V.]

First off I enjoyed the contribution by "X" (wouldn't some Y's be
better for a man?) Just a few reactions...

1. all this 'crucial information' is only available
> through Octogon Press and none elsewhere, Octogon Press being a
> printing enterprise created to publish and divulge activities linked
> with the late Shah's agenda;

I believe that agenda was one of trying to disperse needed information
and to teach whomeover could be taught, despite any appearances that
might not please whatever outside observers.

2.the scandal involving Shah's name and
> his brother's, Omar 'Agha' Shah in many countries around the world,
> concerning the 'Tradition' methods and activities in direct
> contradiction of the views published in Shah's volumous literature;

Not sure what "scandal" this refers to. Any particulars?

> 3. the universal rejection by the traditionally recognized Sufi
> tariqas of the self-proclaimed authority of the Shah's clan to
> direct 'Sufi' tradition in the West (See the Naqshband, Rifai,
> Chishtyia, Jerrahyia opinions about this subject),

Some references would be appreciated. However, I would note that many
who claim to be Naqshbandis differ from each other and some may be from
degenerated projections. I met one recently who seemed to have little
knowledge on any level despite the robes and "being from the East".
Alternately, I have met (years ago) an Afghan sufi who was very
familiar with the Shahs, esp. Ikbal as a teacher/sufi figure. Depends
on your source.

> The Sarmoung '(Sarmân, Sarmoun, etc) Fraternity, made famous in
> Gurdjieff's writings is much older than the Zoroaster tradition. It
> can be traced back to Sumer and has been involved in extensive
> training of individuals or groups of people for the transmission of
> knowledge up to our days, but never has been involved with Idries
> Shah.

Any references?

> Other groups and branches of the Sarmoung survived. It's main
> localization traditionally has been assigned to Afghanistan. As best
> as I know, it was located in Kabul, in a 'Cultural Services Office'
> till some years ago, then it was dismantled with the Taliban
> fundamentalist Afghan take over. Some of it's activities were
> transfered to Irktusk (Russia - sorry - do not know the right spelling
> of the city's name) and other places around the world. So there never
> was an interruption of it's activity in time.

I would be curious as to any sufi teaching -- at least the real essence
of it-- being on file with some gov't office. Usually only the most
superficial aspects may be organized into something tangible. I'd agree
that the Work activity is never interrupted or compromised by any
world events however.

Nowadays there is some
> travelling around of it's instructors to train and teach some groups
> in Europe and America and projects to install new training centers
> outside Asian whereabouts, some of them going in full force.

You'll probably get lots of requests for the particulars!

> Please: consider that Gurdjieff's 4th Way is not Sarmoung... Gurdjieff
> received some practical and conceptual training in Sarmoung during
> his 6 months sojourn there, before being considered too stubborn to
> continue his studies. So he received a task (or a test, if you like)
> to make him more malleable - to try to convey some of the knowledge he
> received there to the 'scientific minded' people of the West: this is
> the origin of the 4th Way. His was the mission to teach a sort of
> 'no religious' and practical method of human evolution based in the
> scientific facts of the time, in connection with that one he gathered
> in Sarmoung and elsewhere, trying to stablish the basis of a future
> Occidental Knowledge School, if suitable people could be found in
> time. Of course, he did not succeed.

Probably most people on this ng would agree with this.

Actually most of the
> 'Gurdjeffian' groups and associations connected directly or indirectly
> with him can be considered as best as 'glorified' personality cults
> at the most. Just like Shah's.

I think Shah was the last person who ever encouraged or tolerated this
in any real sense, despite any appearances or method in which materials
were arranged. He had the reputation of sending most people away.
Moreover, I believe that people who had these tendencies in any way
were excluded from further levels.

> It would be very interesting to discuss the activities of Ouspensky,
> Bennett, Mouraiev, Collin, Sirdar Ali Shah and Reshad Feild, also the
> Sufi politics in this context, but I feel that this would make things
> much more confusing than they already are.

The superficial details usually are so. I doubt that any approach to
the path which is concerned with geography, history, and footnote
documentation will have much reward for the seeker though.

So, maybe next time...
> Please, again. Consider all the above opinions as mere ramblings of a
> very silly old man that thinks that can give some information on
> this subject because he has personally lived through it all. My main
> intention was to offer my personal opinion as the other side of the
> coin to this group and not to make any defamatory or derogatory claims
> to none, whatsoever. If it appears so, I offer my anticipated
> apologies.
>
> yours,
> x

Actually, all most appreciated.

Yours,

GV

[azo charif]

> The Sarmoung '(Sarmân, Sarmoun, etc) Fraternity, made famous in
> Gurdjieff's writings is much older than the Zoroaster tradition. It
> can be traced back to Sumer and has been involved in extensive
> training of individuals or groups of people for the transmission of
> knowledge up to our days,

given some hints from the sufi literary materials(especially the amoudarya
ones) as well as historical ones i put my money on the great role of the
palestinians ,the accadians and the babylionians... along with the
invention of modern writing(as opposed to ancient writings such as the
cuneiform and the hieroglyphes) it is likely them who invented the'secret
language' as described by IS in 'the sufis' ( a language which is
'mathematically' based on an ancient semitic lexico-morphology) to serve as
a long lasting vehicle for the essential mystical ideas of the Brotherhood
imo..
and God knows best
regards
azo
PS :'samani' in Accadian means 'octagonal'. There is still a sufi order in
east africa today named ' el-tariqa el-samania...........

[michel]

I appreciate your opinion.

Shah's description of the sufi tradition and modes of operation as well
as Shah's interpretation of Gurdjieff's role are very similar to the
Sarmoung angle that you report. Assuming that Shah was not the Sarmoung
leader that he claimed to be, he must have nevertheless had his own
connection to the Sarmoung tradition(?)

Michel

[laym...@my-deja.com]

Dear Frank,

I do apologize. After retracing the thread from the beginning, it
appears that the author of the section of the message I quoted was "x".
I don't blame "x" for trying to hide its identity when making such
statements. These long threads with many quotes are just too complex
for us elder folks.

Regards,

Jerry

In article <9645v7$h94$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

[franko...@my-deja.com]

laym...@my-deja.com wrote:

> it appears that the author of the section of the message I quoted
was "x".

S' allright!

Regards