The Gurdjieff Test
polish...@my-deja.com
As you may be aware I have now asked Azo to justify his feelings
towards Gurdjieff, and his pupils. I have asked Azo to tell me how the
'Work' of Gurdjieff is 'harming' some of those now involved with the
fourth way. I need to know specifics. He seems to see a problem with
the 'Table of Hydrogens'. I'd liked to know specifics, how do the
'Hydrogens' harm people. Surely, if he knows this, this would do more
'good' than saying you're all a bunch of 'nutters'.
He has interacted with a minute percentage of Gurdjieff's
followers and has formed a very biased and distorted opinion. I'm
sure, and I've met them, that there are very sincere, balanced,
rational people following Gurdjieff's Teachings. Good luck to them,
eh? If it's helping them - then wish them Peace on their way! I'm sure
that if we dig deep enough we will find 'nutters' in all groupings (in
some cases we do not have to dig that deep). Talk about persecution!
Come on Azo lets go through the various tenets of Gurdjieff's
approach e.g.
'Identification'
'Negative Emotions'
'Internal Considering'
'Self Remembering'
'Self Observation'
'Aim'
'External Considering'
'Verification'
'Impressions'
'Suffering - conscious, unconscious'
'Knowledge'
'Being'
'Essence'
'Personality'
'The Seven Lines Of Work'
'The Seven Levels of Man'
The various centres:
Instinctive, Mechanical/Moving,
Emotional, Intellectual,
Higher Intellectual, Higher Emotional.
How do these damage people? Or, which aspects of this approach damage
people? How do you, for instance, 'overdose' on this information and
these techniques?
Let's also look at the connection of Gurdjieff's 'Work', with esoteric
Christianity (Nicoll and those before him), and the connection of
Gurdjieff's 'Work' with that of Bennett, and the Sufi connection e.g.
Sanai. When I say look I mean really look, in detail!
Before he starts though, the following may help him:
'The man who accepted Gurdjieff (also called Jurjizada) was my
own master the Sheikh ul Mashaikh.
The Sheikh had chosen him to test out certain reactions in the West
to the introduction of Sufi thought that had been taking place over
the centuries.
Gurdjieff reported back regularly on the experiments that he was set
to perform.
Even before his death the phase was over, yet some still drag out what
they consider to be the teaching even though they know little of the
technique and even less the aim.'
.......'You will study this book, which is in English,' he went on.
'Some of it will be familiar to you. Do not be surprised, for
Gurdjieff drew from it deeply. When the time is right I will send you
onwards....'
'I remained in Peshawar for a month. During that time I read
and re-read 'The Walled Garden of Truth' of Hakin Sanai.
It was a revelation. There it was, chapter and verse, the basis of
Gurdjieff's writings. If I needed any other proof this was it.'
'The Walled Garden of Truth' : here we have a possible starting point
for Azo. How did Gurdjieff 'use' this? In other words please compare
the two 'Works' for the audience.
Do you think the 'experiment' failed?
Do you think those that sent Gurdjieff knew what they were doing?
Ok, the 'phase' finished, but the 'information' is still there. Of
course those that sent Gurdjieff knew that they would not be able to
recall the 'information', what do you think they did about this? Brand
them all 'nutters' perhaps - sorry, I don't think so.
Remember the Whirling Dervishes, some of them will whirl forever. Rumi
said, even in his own live time, that that activity was limited. I'm
more than sure that there are very sincere, balanced, rational people
Whirling around following Rumi's Teachings ( along with some
'nutters').
Do we call the 'Whirling Dervishes' 'nutters', 'deluded' ,
'indoctrinated'?
No, it is truly a BEAUTIFUL! piece of Work - we must admire and
respect it, even if we feel that it has been surpassed or superceded.
However, like many other things in the 'Work' it can still have value
for 'certain' people.
Now Azo, I'm ready and waiting. What do you really 'know' of
Gurdjieff?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Two things have no limit:
the stupidity of man and the
mercy of God.'
G.I.Gurdjieff
polish...@my-deja.com
CC
Hearing the wails from the crowd BELOW him as he passed the 50th floor, he
comments, "don't know what all the fuss is about, so far this ride has been
thoroughly enjoyable!"
<polish...@my-deja.com> wrote in message 39912956.90290180@firewall...
Chris Belcher
The best answer that came to my mind about this issue is the chapter in
"Kara Kush" entitled "Ride and Die!" I found it a thoughtul,
descriptive and compassionate account of the sorts of communities you
describe. For those without the patience to do so, it was pretty well
summed up in one sentence:
"A perfect replica of a Saracen knight perhaps: but no threat to the
soldiers of a modern army..."
Ancient traditions have their own beauty and eloquence -- but
techniques can also be designed for the present environment. Riding
out on horseback against tanks may be a romantic gesture of the highest
order, but there are more current approaches which don't necessarily
entail getting slaughtered. The world *has* changed since Rumi's, and
Gurdjieff's, time...
Chris
In article <39912956.90290180@firewall>, <polish...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
polish...@my-deja.com
Chris Belcher <id...@alchymedia.com> wrote:
>
> The best answer that came to my mind about this issue is the chapter
in
> "Kara Kush" entitled "Ride and Die!" I found it a thoughtul,
> descriptive and compassionate account of the sorts of communities you
> describe. For those without the patience to do so, it was pretty well
> summed up in one sentence:
>
> "A perfect replica of a Saracen knight perhaps: but no threat to the
> soldiers of a modern army..."
>
> Ancient traditions have their own beauty and eloquence -- but
> techniques can also be designed for the present environment. Riding
> out on horseback against tanks may be a romantic gesture of the
highest
> order, but there are more current approaches which don't necessarily
> entail getting slaughtered. The world *has* changed since Rumi's, and
> Gurdjieff's, time...
>
> Chris
Chris,
Thank you for that thoughtful reply. Yes the 'world' has changed, but
only one of them.
I only suggest that people ask some questions about what Gurdjieff
may have been here for, e.g. why was he sent, why did it happen during
the period it happened, why did it attract the people it attracted,what
ground did it prepare etc etc.
Have you read 'The Walled Garden of Truth, still available through
Octagon, and, apparently, used by Gurdjieff for the foundation of his
teachings? The similarities, if you can spot them, are intriguing.
There are of course many other interesting facts. I've sent one to Jay
earlier, and of course I mentioned the 'Cavalcade' yesterday.
A few more:For exmaple in 'Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson',
the 'messenger' 'Ashiata Shiemash' Ernest Scott (Idries Shah school)
tells us is an anagram.
Also, in other literature we are told that the Old Man is in fact the
Prophet Mohammed and his grandson Hussein represents Imam Hussein the
grandson of Mohammed.
And consider this extract from 'Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson':
"Really, I do not know how to advise you, my dear Captain. Ah yes … in
that solar system where I existed for a long time, there is a planet
called Earth. On that planet Earth arose, and still continue to arise,
very strange three-centered beings. And among the beings of a continent
of that planet called 'Asia', there arose and existed a very wise three-
brained being whom they called there 'Mullah Nassr Eddin.'
"For each and every peculiar situation great and small in the existence
of the beings there," Beelzebub continued, "this same terrestrial sage
Mullah Nassr Eddin had an apt and pithy saying.
"As all his sayings were full of the sense of truth for existence
there, I also always used them there as a guide, in order to have a
comfortable existence among the beings of that planet."
Who do you think 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' is?
Interesting isn't it: Asia, Mulla, 'Ashiata Shiemash', Hussein.
Surely, not all just a coincidence!
Again, as I said earlier to Jay....
BTW I'm not trying to push the '4th Way', as taught by Gurdjieff, here.
I just think it's about time that people realised there's more to it
than some would have us believe, and therefore we should respect the
Gurdjieff Teaching and those that choose to follow it.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jva...@my-deja.com
"People where encouraged to do things, read things, and act in ways
which were supposed to develop themselves.
Many of these techniques applied by Gurdieff were applied at random,
("Given a certain circumstance we will do that") or else as a non-
assimilated form of the original teaching. For example, one aspect of
the Tradition is the conquest of the Self, in the sense that you do no
become nothing, but the selfish or the "me first" attitude is
deminished."
"Because of this, a person who might be considered arrogant or falling
according to some other yardstuck applied by Gurdieff, were expected to
perform certain functions in public in order to |conquer| this self
which was "controlling him" This led to many curious incidents and
threw up many curious questions, because people could not understand
how the so-called "conquest of the self "could be achieved by a
particular action which appeared strange, unsusual or bizarre.
In fact, It was a reflection of something which had been half -learnt.
There is a saying in Afghanistan that a man who is half a doctor is a
threat to your life; but a man who is a half Iman or religious teacher
is a treat to your soul.
If you follow and analyze some of the techniques and tactics employed
by Gurdieff, you can see that they were half-learnt. There is a great
difference between learning a technique and knowing when to use it. You
can learn the best technique in the world, but if you apply it at the
wrong time and under the wrong curcumstances, it will fall on the
ground. You have to be conscious of time, need, place and people: if
any of these factors are absent, the result, to put it mildly, is
confusion, and at its maximum , it is damage"
Sayed Omar Ali Shah (The Sufi Tradition in the West)
Question: How can you respect a person who knowingly experiments on
people.
In the Tradition you either do something properly or not at all,
(Master of the Option) when dealing with people there is no margin for
error, so with regard to what damage did Gurdieff do (and his
successors still do) , How do you measure Human suffering? Would you
send your children to a school of such teachers?
If I read twenty books on Philosophy or any other subject, and then
start my own Based upon these what is the result? Answer: Nasrudins
Disgusting Soup. Here is a new Nasrudin tale for you.
Title : What Went Wrong (WWW)
Nasrudn came rushing into his house, clothes tattered,
bleeding ,coughing and covered in dirt
His wife said "what went wrong Nasrudin!" the Mulla replied "I was
mixing the ingredients that the chemist had gave me for my Treatment,
I tasted some it was foul! so I decided to had a few ingredients of my
own and It Blew up in my face!"
polish...@my-deja.com
Jonathan,
Glad you could join us. I wonder, how does the above relate to the
following which I wrote in the original mail to Azo:
##########
Before he starts though, the following may help him:
'The man who accepted Gurdjieff (also called Jurjizada) was my
own master the Sheikh ul Mashaikh.
The Sheikh had chosen him to test out certain reactions in the West
to the introduction of Sufi thought that had been taking place over
the centuries.
Gurdjieff reported back regularly on the experiments that he was set
to perform.
Even before his death the phase was over, yet some still drag out what
they consider to be the teaching even though they know little of the
technique and even less the aim.'
.......'You will study this book, which is in English,' he went on.
'Some of it will be familiar to you. Do not be surprised, for
Gurdjieff drew from it deeply. When the time is right I will send you
onwards....'
'I remained in Peshawar for a month. During that time I read
and re-read 'The Walled Garden of Truth' of Hakin Sanai.
It was a revelation. There it was, chapter and verse, the basis of
Gurdjieff's writings. If I needed any other proof this was it.'
#######
This implies that Gurdjieff was sent to 'experiment'. The 'experiment'
lasted some time. My sources reveal that the 'experiment' lasted
several decades.
> In the Tradition you either do something properly or not at all,
> (Master of the Option) when dealing with people there is no margin for
> error, so with regard to what damage did Gurdieff do (and his
> successors still do)
Why When Who.
Who sent him? Were the experiments designed to be incomplete, if so
why? There is no use blaming Gurdjieff for damage, several decades is a
long time, enough to get something right.
> If you follow and analyze some of the techniques and tactics employed
> by Gurdieff, you can see that they were half-learnt. There is a great
> difference between learning a technique and knowing when to use it.
Have you verified this statement for yourself. He clearly says 'some'
were half-learnt. Do you know which ones?
During the course of the 'experiment', if he only applied 'half baked'
techniques, what was the purpose of the 'experiment'?
Now who is right OAS, or the person who wrote the above extraction (I'm
sure you know who that was), or both? How do you know?
Why did J.G.Bennett regard Gurdjieff as one of his Teachers, even after
he had accepted Idries Shah?
Why did Ernest Scott spend so much time explaining Gurdjieff's role.
What did Idires Shah say about Gurdjieff?
Why did Idires Shah put so much effort into this?
Oh, what a complex weave....
And, if they really knew, would they tell you, or anyone else, the
truth of these matters?
Just curious. I'm sure sooner or later, all will be explained, but
probably not in our lifetime.
Again, as I said earlier to Jay....
BTW I'm not trying to push the '4th Way', as taught by Gurdjieff, here.
I just think it's about time that people realised there's more to it
than some would have us believe, and therefore we should respect the
Gurdjieff Teaching and those that choose to follow it.
azo charif
back because i had a wrist injury playing football two days ago (and i have
the feeling that it is either you or some other derviche in the forum who
put a curse on me but whoever was i am most forgiving!)..being a bit
dyslexic typing with left hand only(imagine interference riht hemisphere
left henisphere..) i try only to answer the main questions ,besides the
answers to your questions are already answered by a couple of posters who
are much more knowledgable than iam and also are found in many of your
quotes scatterd everywhere..but as you keep insisting i do my best....
> As you may be aware I have now asked Azo to justify his feelings
> towards Gurdjieff,
a sufi dropout just to tease some of his fans at alt fourth way..
and that is nothing comparring to what i called others..for example i
believe i wrote here once 'Shah is a wanker' and i said most obscene things
about 'allah' and' mohammed'(coupled with deep respect please) in other ngs
in order to shock the
findamentalists..in so doing am i doing harm or good( you will ask)?- well
,you see, if one thinks that way one never be able to do anything, one just
has to do what he thinks is right to do ,keeping in mind that he might be
wrong after all.. the only sin in my view is the one of absolute self
righteousness...as regards my dealings with fundamentalists, by so doing, i
managed to stop some of them preaching any more of their intolerance ,hate
and violence and some others to see themselves for what they are,that is,
a bunch of total brainwashed indoctrinated puppets....
>and his pupils.
ah them ,they are real nutcases...go read lighttouch and co in alt forth way
to see for youself......
> I have asked Azo to tell me how the
> 'Work' of Gurdjieff is 'harming' some of those now involved with the
> fourth way. I need to know specifics. He seems to see a problem with
> the 'Table of Hydrogens'. I'd liked to know specifics, how do the
> 'Hydrogens' harm people. Surely, if he knows this, this would do more
> 'good' than saying you're all a bunch of 'nutters'.
this questiion will be answered further below...
> He has interacted with a minute percentage of Gurdjieff's
> followers and has formed a very biased and distorted opinion. I'm
> sure, and I've met them, that there are very sincere, balanced,
> rational people following Gurdjieff's Teachings. Good luck to them,
godd luck them but that dosent prevent me of saying what i think of them : a
bunch of nutters..
> eh? If it's helping them - then wish them Peace on their way! I'm sure
> that if we dig deep enough we will find 'nutters' in all groupings (in
> some cases we do not have to dig that deep).
that is true. I AM A NUTTER TOO BUT AT LEAST I KNOW IAM A NUTTER...
self-ignorance\self righteousness is the only cardinal sin....
>Talk about persecution!
are you calling 'description of person's mental state ' a 'persecution of
this person' ,AM I PERSECUTING MYSELF BY SAYING IAM A NUTTER?
> Come on Azo lets go through the various tenets of Gurdjieff's
all the themes you named below are well contained in any sufi classic you
open, although in a coded form ..they could be only decoded by a 'turjuman
=a decoder' in order to be studied within a genuine sufi group... i dont
believe them to be a matter of public discussion and i am neither qualified
nor have i the desire to discuss them herein in detail...but remember one
thing ,although there are some sections in G et al's writings which are very
illuminating and do help understand some basic sufi concepts, especially to
those who found the sufi classics too obscure, many of them are more or less
distortions of the original materials,probably a deliberate act of G,
just to give you few examples:
-the different centers of mind are well defined in sufism yet G mixed them
up(see 'the perfumed scorpion' for the original model)...
-enneagram and table of hydrogenes,tarots ..etc..are well encoded in the
coran in a precise exact manner but G made a mess of them,
-essence and personnality are defined respectively as inborn nature and
acquired nature of man by G but in sufi classics the inborn and acquired
natures both constitutes two interactive aspects of the same secondary
commanding personnality='el-nafs el-ammara' ( the first is a result of
natural selection through eons of evolution and the second is an outcome of
upbringing) ...Essence or 'THAT' in sufism is totally different from G's
,'THAT' or essence in sufism denotes the facultiies of pure awareness or
pure consciuosness which are outside the mecanisms of mecanical
conditioning...and the aim of sufism is to develop Essence and not
personnalit acquired or otherwise.
to go through your list of themes and just to give you a score (of what i
think is distorted more or less by G) out of 10 ( score scale 0-10..
-0=completely faithfull to original
-10=completely distorted)
> 'Identification' score 3
> 'Negative Emotions' score 7
> 'Internal Considering' score 4
> 'Self Remembering' score 2
> 'Self Observation' score 2
> 'Aim' score 4
> 'External Considering' score 3
> 'Verification' dont know
> 'Impressions' score 4
> 'Suffering - conscious, unconscious' score 6
> 'Knowledge'
> 'Being' score 4
> 'Essence'
> 'Personality' score 9
> 'The Seven Lines Of Work' score 5
> 'The Seven Levels of Man' score 5
> The various centres:
> Instinctive, Mechanical/Moving,
> Emotional, Intellectual,
> Higher Intellectual, Higher Emotional. score 8
>
> How do these damage people? Or, which aspects of this approach damage
> people? How do you, for instance, 'overdose' on this information and
> these techniques?
working with the distorted materials is damaging enough, without mentioning
the damages caused by tinkering with sufi techiques and materials on one
own's terms without a presence of a sufi teacher...
remember the baraka of a sufi is there to protect the students from any
harmfull 'radiations' as well as giving them proper 'nutrition'...........
>
> Let's also look at the connection of Gurdjieff's 'Work', with esoteric
> Christianity (Nicoll and those before him), and the connection of
> Gurdjieff's 'Work' with that of Bennett, and the Sufi connection e.g.
> Sanai. When I say look I mean really look, in detail!
>
............................................................................
..........
> ........................................................
an eastern saying:''once the COW has stopped yeilding MILK ,it 's sent to
the ABATTPOR''
G's school had accomplished its mission and it died with the G himself...
> 'Two things have no limit:
> the stupidity of man and the
> mercy of God.'
> G.I.Gurdjieff
bless him..
..........
another saying:'' SALT is ignored by ANTS'..
now because you like to play tennis with novices here is a
simple question: why SALT is ignored by ANTS?
if you have arabic-english dictionary try to see the meanings of other words
of the same two trilitteral roots:
root for salt: M-L-H
root for ants: N-M-L
PS:btw please appreciate the effort i put into typing the above... it took
an hour 37 mn exactly
regards
azo
polish...@my-deja.com
"azo charif" <a...@chari.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> my dearest darling ,i amnt trying to avoid your questions,i couldnt
answer
> back because i had a wrist injury playing football two days ago (and
i have
> the feeling that it is either you or some other derviche in the forum
who
> put a curse on me but whoever was i am most forgiving!)..being a bit
> dyslexic typing with left hand only(imagine interference riht
hemisphere
> left henisphere..) i try only to answer the main questions ,besides
the
> answers to your questions are already answered by a couple of
posters who
> are much more knowledgable than iam and also are found in many of your
> quotes scatterd everywhere..but as you keep insisting i do my
best....
> > As you may be aware I have now asked Azo to justify his feelings
> > towards Gurdjieff,
> i have deep respect(as opposed to superficial one) for G,i called
him once
> a sufi dropout just to tease some of his fans at alt fourth way..
You know what it means to 'tease', then why do you answer this post?
> and that is nothing comparring to what i called others..for example i
> believe i wrote here once 'Shah is a wanker' and i said most obscene
things
> about 'allah' and' mohammed'(coupled with deep respect please) in
other ngs
> in order to shock the
> findamentalists..
Of course, only for that.
>in so doing am i doing harm or good( you will ask)?- well
> ,you see, if one thinks that way one never be able to do anything,
one just
> has to do what he thinks is right to do ,keeping in mind that he
might be
> wrong after all.. the only sin in my view is the one of absolute self
> righteousness...as regards my dealings with fundamentalists, by so
doing, i
> managed to stop some of them preaching any more of their
intolerance ,hate
> and violence and some others to see themselves for what they
are,that is,
> a bunch of total brainwashed indoctrinated puppets....
Ah well, we're all puppets, in one way or another.
>
> >and his pupils.
> ah them ,they are real nutcases...go read lighttouch and co in alt
forth way
> to see for youself......
These are not his pupils. They represent a tinie, weenie, percentage of
people currently interested in his ideas.
I'm only sorry J.G.Bennett is not here to discuss this with you.
>
> > I have asked Azo to tell me how the
> > 'Work' of Gurdjieff is 'harming' some of those now involved with the
> > fourth way. I need to know specifics. He seems to see a problem with
> > the 'Table of Hydrogens'. I'd liked to know specifics, how do the
> > 'Hydrogens' harm people. Surely, if he knows this, this would do
more
> > 'good' than saying you're all a bunch of 'nutters'.
>
> this questiion will be answered further below...
>
> > He has interacted with a minute percentage of Gurdjieff's
> > followers and has formed a very biased and distorted opinion. I'm
> > sure, and I've met them, that there are very sincere, balanced,
> > rational people following Gurdjieff's Teachings. Good luck to them,
> godd luck them but that dosent prevent me of saying what i think of
them : a
> bunch of nutters..
> > eh? If it's helping them - then wish them Peace on their way! I'm
sure
> > that if we dig deep enough we will find 'nutters' in all groupings
(in
> > some cases we do not have to dig that deep).
>
> that is true. I AM A NUTTER TOO BUT AT LEAST I KNOW IAM A NUTTER...
> self-ignorance\self righteousness is the only cardinal sin....
Did I call you a 'nutter', don't assume so much.
>
> >Talk about persecution!
> are you calling 'description of person's mental state '
a 'persecution of
> this person' ,AM I PERSECUTING MYSELF BY SAYING IAM A NUTTER?
I am therefore I think.
Of course they are. I've seen your descriptions of the octagon in other
posts.
>but G made a mess of them,
G? Are you sure about this?
> -essence and personnality are defined respectively as inborn nature
and
> acquired nature of man by G but in sufi classics the inborn and
acquired
> natures both constitutes two interactive aspects of the same
secondary
> commanding personnality='el-nafs el-ammara' ( the first is a result
of
> natural selection through eons of evolution and the second is an
outcome of
> upbringing) ...Essence or 'THAT' in sufism is totally different from
G's
> ,'THAT' or essence in sufism denotes the facultiies of pure awareness
or
> pure consciuosness which are outside the mecanisms of mecanical
> conditioning...and the aim of sufism is to develop Essence and not
> personnalit acquired or otherwise.
I though you wasn't qualified to talk about these things. Do you
believe everything you read?
>
> to go through your list of themes and just to give you a score (of
what i
> think is distorted more or less by G) out of 10 ( score scale 0-10..
> -0=completely faithfull to original
> -10=completely distorted)
I thought you were not qualified to talk about these things? How can
you score what you don't understand?
>
> > 'Identification' score 3
> > 'Negative Emotions' score 7
> > 'Internal Considering' score 4
> > 'Self Remembering' score 2
> > 'Self Observation' score 2
> > 'Aim' score 4
> > 'External Considering' score 3
> > 'Verification' dont know
> > 'Impressions' score 4
> > 'Suffering - conscious, unconscious' score 6
> > 'Knowledge'
> > 'Being' score 4
> > 'Essence'
> > 'Personality' score 9
> > 'The Seven Lines Of Work' score 5
> > 'The Seven Levels of Man' score 5
> > The various centres:
> > Instinctive, Mechanical/Moving,
> > Emotional, Intellectual,
> > Higher Intellectual, Higher Emotional. score 8
> >
Why did you not add the important ones to the list, the ones that I
purposely left off?
Why have you not done the real task of showing us how these derive
from 'The Walled Garden of Truth.'
> > How do these damage people? Or, which aspects of this approach
damage
> > people? How do you, for instance, 'overdose' on this information and
> > these techniques?
> working with the distorted materials is damaging enough, without
mentioning
> the damages caused by tinkering with sufi techiques and materials on
one
> own's terms without a presence of a sufi teacher...
> remember the baraka of a sufi is there to protect the students from
any
> harmfull 'radiations' as well as giving them
proper 'nutrition'...........
Harmfull radiations, ha. Give me a break! Sorry no pun intended.
>
> >
> > Let's also look at the connection of Gurdjieff's 'Work', with
esoteric
> > Christianity (Nicoll and those before him), and the connection of
> > Gurdjieff's 'Work' with that of Bennett, and the Sufi connection
e.g.
> > Sanai. When I say look I mean really look, in detail!
> >
> ......................................................................
......
> ..........
>
> > ........................................................
>
> an eastern saying:''once the COW has stopped yeilding MILK ,it 's
sent to
> the ABATTPOR''
> G's school had accomplished its mission and it died with the G
himself...
Who told you this? I don't mean where did you read it? As I have said
to others, do not flatter yourself so much. Who are you that the truth
of such issues would be explained? 'The Sufis' has only just got around
to explaining connections that are several hundred years old!
>
> > 'Two things have no limit:
> > the stupidity of man and the
> > mercy of God.'
> > G.I.Gurdjieff
> bless him..
I'm sure he is.
> ..........
> another saying:'' SALT is ignored by ANTS'..
> now because you like to play tennis with novices here is a
> simple question: why SALT is ignored by ANTS?
Is it not obvious?
What, so far, suggests to you that I need a dictionary?
> if you have arabic-english dictionary try to see the meanings of
other words
> of the same two trilitteral roots:
> root for salt: M-L-H
> root for ants: N-M-L
>
I've seen you in action 'Caravan Of Dreams', didn't quite finish that
either did you?
> PS:btw please appreciate the effort i put into typing the above... it
took
> an hour 37 mn exactly
> regards
> azo
>
>
BTW Please appreciate the effort I put into talking to you.
jva...@my-deja.com
polish...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8n10as$id9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> jva...@my-deja.com wrote:
questions here as it may also help other people.
> Glad you could join us. I wonder, how does the above relate to the
> following which I wrote in the original mail to Azo:
> ##########
> Before he starts though, the following may help him:
>JV Wrote:the following 3 sections are grouped together as they are all
part of the same process.
Mirror Wrote:
> 'The man who accepted Gurdjieff (also called Jurjizada) was my
> own master the Sheikh ul Mashaikh.
> The Sheikh had chosen him to test out certain reactions in the West
> to the introduction of Sufi thought that had been taking place over
> the centuries.
> Gurdjieff reported back regularly on the experiments that he was set
> to perform.
> Even before his death the phase was over, yet some still drag out what
> they consider to be the teaching even though they know little of the
> technique and even less the aim.'
2.
(This implies that Gurdjieff was sent to 'experiment'. The 'experiment'
lasted some time. My sources reveal that the 'experiment' lasted
several decades.)
3.
During the course of the 'experiment', if he only applied 'half baked'
> techniques, what was the purpose of the 'experiment'?
JV Wrote:
When you are dealing with a sickness you have to make the patient
comfortable before you administer the treatment (Time and Pomegranites)
Mirror Wrote:
> .......'You will study this book, which is in English,' he went on.
> 'Some of it will be familiar to you. Do not be surprised, for
> Gurdjieff drew from it deeply. When the time is right I will send you
> onwards....'
> 'I remained in Peshawar for a month. During that time I read
> and re-read 'The Walled Garden of Truth' of Hakin Sanai.
> It was a revelation. There it was, chapter and verse, the basis of
> Gurdjieff's writings. If I needed any other proof this was it.'
> #######
JV Wrote:
One of my favorite books.
If you remember Gurdieff never revealed is sources, one of the first
operations was to make people aware of the source of his information
(freeing them from his monopoly of inforamtion so they could judge for
themselves) , however having something as a basis doesn't give
authority or capacity. This was what was proven not the reverse.
>
In the Tradition you either do something properly or not at all,
(Master of the Option) when dealing with people there is no margin for
error, so with regard to what damage did Gurdieff do (and his
successors still do)
Mirror Wrote:
Why When Who.
>
Who sent him? Were the experiments designed to be incomplete, if so
why? There is no use blaming Gurdjieff for damage, several decades is a
long time, enough to get something right.
JV Wrote: A clock which is one minute out is never right one which is
stopped is right twice a day but it is not functional as a time piece.
"If you follow and analyze some of the techniques and tactics employed
by Gurdieff, you can see that they were half-learnt. There is a great
difference between learning a technique and knowing when to use it." OAS
Mirror Wrote:
Have you verified this statement for yourself. He clearly says 'some'
were half-learnt. Do you know which ones?
JV Wrote:
If it was a doctor we where talking about this would not be exceptable
there is no difference here, (Remember Hakim means Doctor)
"There is a great difference between learning a technique and knowing
when to use it.."
Even the correct technique at the wrong 'Time' is at best usless.
Mirror Wrote:
> Now who is right OAS, or the person who wrote the above extraction
(I'm sure you know who that was), or both? How do you know?
JV Wrote: Both are part of One process, Gardening = Weeding,tilling
the ground, sewing
Mirror Wrote:
> Why did J.G.Bennett regard Gurdjieff as one of his Teachers, even
after he had accepted Idries Shah?
JV. A rock may be your teacher if you fall over it.
Mirror Worte:
Why did Ernest Scott spend so much time explaining Gurdjieff's role.
JV Wrote: Ernst Scott wrote indepentantly with his own perspective from
the view of the outside observer he made that very clear.
Mirror Wrote:
> What did Idires Shah say about Gurdjieff?
> Why did Idires Shah put so much effort into this?
> Oh, what a complex weave....
> ----------------------------------
> And, if they really knew, would they tell you, or anyone else, the
> truth of these matters?
JV Wrote: Now we get to the interesting bit:
If you follow and analyze some of the techniques and tactics employed
by Gurdieff, you can see that they were half-learnt.
Question: How do you analyze these techniques.
Question: Analysis requires tools, What are these tools? do you have
them? hint! remember OAS is addressing his students.
How do you get a giraffe into a fridge ?
Mirror Wrote:
> Just curious. I'm sure sooner or later, all will be explained, but
> probably not in our lifetime.
>
> Again, as I said earlier to Jay....
>
> BTW I'm not trying to push the '4th Way', as taught by Gurdjieff,
here.
> I just think it's about time that people realised there's more to it
> than some would have us believe, and therefore we should respect the
> Gurdjieff Teaching and those that choose to follow it.
JV Wrote : In that case if I start a group based around say The Bostan
by Sadi I deserve respect for my theft of intellectual property. The
Victorian Era is littered with translations of Sufi text such as Edward
Fitzgerald's Omar Kayam, but does diluting Wine improve the flavour and
should anybody be congratulated for doing it. (Remember the Secret
protects itself) By all means respect Hakim Sanai for his master piece
but don't worship the Bookshelf for containing it. (Container &
Contents).
You have all got the Tools recognise them and use them.
Harmony is a higher state of oganisation in this ground lies the
potential for growth.
Your Friend Jonathan
Jay Vogelsong
polish...@my-deja.com wrote:
> 'Identification'
> 'Negative Emotions'
> 'Internal Considering'
> 'Self Remembering'
> 'Self Observation'
> 'Aim'
> 'External Considering'
> 'Verification'
> 'Impressions'
> 'Suffering - conscious, unconscious'
> 'Knowledge'
> 'Being'
> 'Essence'
> 'Personality'
> 'The Seven Lines Of Work'
> 'The Seven Levels of Man'
> The various centres:
> Instinctive, Mechanical/Moving,
> Emotional, Intellectual,
> Higher Intellectual, Higher Emotional.
Sometimes points from my earlier reading of The Fourth Way come to mind,
with some new aspect. I have not lately reread the book, but your outline
of points seems to include many of those I found most useful. Perhaps, as
a way of illustrating their Sufic content, you could briefly describe the
above ideas, for the purpose of further discussion.
Jay Vogelsong
Don't forget the story of the soup of the soup of the soup of the duck you
guys. : )
azo charif
<polish...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8n1hns$o5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8n1c76$9j3$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "> > > ....
>
> Ah well, we're all puppets, in one way or another.
>
> >
> > >and his pupils.
> > ah them ,they are real nutcases...go read lighttouch and co in alt
> forth way
> > to see for youself......
>
> These are not his pupils. They represent a tinie, weenie, percentage of
> people currently interested in his ideas.
> I'm only sorry J.G.Bennett is not here to discuss this with you.
but still his books are also full of weird ideas to the point where
sometimes he sounded more like today's Raelists and ufologists...
the only gurdjieff follower i find interesting is Dr charles tart, the
author of 'altered states..'.
>
> >
> > > I have asked Azo to tell me how the
> > > 'Work' of Gurdjieff is 'harming' some of those now involved with the
> > > fourth way. I need to know specifics. He seems to see a problem with
> > > the 'Table of Hydrogens'. I'd liked to know specifics, how do the
> > > 'Hydrogens' harm people. Surely, if he knows this, this would do
> more
> > > 'good' than saying you're all a bunch of 'nutters'.
> >
> > this questiion will be answered further below...
> >
> > > He has interacted with a minute percentage of Gurdjieff's
> > > followers and has formed a very biased and distorted opinion. I'm
> > > sure, and I've met them, that there are very sincere, balanced,
> > > rational people following Gurdjieff's Teachings. Good luck to them,
> > godd luck them but that dosent prevent me of saying what i think of
> them : a
> > bunch of nutters..
> > > eh? If it's helping them - then wish them Peace on their way! I'm
> sure
> > > that if we dig deep enough we will find 'nutters' in all groupings
> (in
> > > some cases we do not have to dig that deep).
> >
> > that is true. I AM A NUTTER TOO BUT AT LEAST I KNOW IAM A NUTTER...
> > self-ignorance\self righteousness is the only cardinal sin....
>
> Did I call you a 'nutter', don't assume so much.
>
> > -essence and personnality are defined respectively as inborn nature
> and
> > acquired nature of man by G but in sufi classics the inborn and
> acquired
> > natures both constitutes two interactive aspects of the same
> secondary
> > commanding personnality='el-nafs el-ammara' ( the first is a result
> of
> > natural selection through eons of evolution and the second is an
> outcome of
> > upbringing) ...Essence or 'THAT' in sufism is totally different from
> G's
> > ,'THAT' or essence in sufism denotes the facultiies of pure awareness
> or
> > pure consciuosness which are outside the mecanisms of mecanical
> > conditioning...and the aim of sufism is to develop Essence and not
> > personnalit acquired or otherwise.
>
> I though you wasn't qualified to talk about these things.
>Do you
> believe everything you read?
>
> >
> > to go through your list of themes and just to give you a score (of
> what i
> > think is distorted more or less by G) out of 10 ( score scale 0-10..
> > -0=completely faithfull to original
> > -10=completely distorted)
>
> I thought you were not qualified to talk about these things? How can
> you score what you don't understand?
because you keep asking...
>
> >
> > > 'Identification' score 3
> > > 'Negative Emotions' score 7
> > > 'Internal Considering' score 4
> > > 'Self Remembering' score 2
> > > 'Self Observation' score 2
> > > 'Aim' score 4
> > > 'External Considering' score 3
> > > 'Verification' dont know
> > > 'Impressions' score 4
> > > 'Suffering - conscious, unconscious' score 6
> > > 'Knowledge'
> > > 'Being' score 4
> > > 'Essence'
> > > 'Personality' score 9
> > > 'The Seven Lines Of Work' score 5
> > > 'The Seven Levels of Man' score 5
> > > The various centres:
> > > Instinctive, Mechanical/Moving,
> > > Emotional, Intellectual,
> > > Higher Intellectual, Higher Emotional. score 8
> > >
>
> Why did you not add the important ones to the list, the ones that I
> purposely left off?
> Why have you not done the real task of showing us how these derive
> from 'The Walled Garden of Truth.'
iamnot qualified to discusss in detail..by the way is this book one of your
fetishes?
>
> > > How do these damage people? Or, which aspects of this approach
> damage
> > > people? How do you, for instance, 'overdose' on this information and
> > > these techniques?
> > working with the distorted materials is damaging enough, without
> mentioning
> > the damages caused by tinkering with sufi techiques and materials on
> one
> > own's terms without a presence of a sufi teacher...
> > remember the baraka of a sufi is there to protect the students from
> any
> > harmfull 'radiations' as well as giving them
> proper 'nutrition'...........
>
> Harmfull radiations, ha. Give me a break! Sorry no pun intended.
trying to be funny,melissa..
>
> >
> > >
> > > Let's also look at the connection of Gurdjieff's 'Work', with
> esoteric
> > > Christianity (Nicoll and those before him), and the connection of
> > > Gurdjieff's 'Work' with that of Bennett, and the Sufi connection
> e.g.
> > > Sanai. When I say look I mean really look, in detail!
> > >
> > ......................................................................
> ......
> > ..........
> >
> > > ........................................................
> >
> > an eastern saying:''once the COW has stopped yeilding MILK ,it 's
> sent to
> > the ABATTPOR''
> > G's school had accomplished its mission and it died with the G
> himself...
>
> Who told you this?
my grandfather,a shadhili faqir.he taught gurdjieff and some others 'the art
of head shaving'...
> I don't mean where did you read it? As I have said
> to others, do not flatter yourself so much. Who are you that the truth
> of such issues would be explained? 'The Sufis' has only just got around
> to explaining connections that are several hundred years old!
read again jvarty posts regarding this subject but not selectively please
>
> >
> > > 'Two things have no limit:
> > > the stupidity of man and the
> > > mercy of God.'
> > > G.I.Gurdjieff
> > bless him..
> I'm sure he is.
> > ..........
> > another saying:'' SALT is ignored by ANTS'..
> > now because you like to play tennis with novices here is a
> > simple question: why SALT is ignored by ANTS?
>
> Is it not obvious?
> What, so far, suggests to you that I need a dictionary?
even arabic native speaker needs a dictionary for root analysis..iamnt
assuming that you dont know the language(please dont ask:what makes u think
that iam assuming that you are assuming tatatattata)
>
> > if you have arabic-english dictionary try to see the meanings of
> other words
> > of the same two trilitteral roots:
> > root for salt: M-L-H
> > root for ants: N-M-L
> >
> I've seen you in action 'Caravan Of Dreams', didn't quite finish that
> either did you?
forget the abjad, iam talking about root lexico-morphological analysis which
is very simple with aid of dictionary..
>
> > PS:btw please appreciate the effort i put into typing the above... it
> took
> > an hour 37 mn exactly
> > regards
> > azo
> >
> >
>
>
> BTW Please appreciate the effort I put into talking to you.
well try to put some sense as well next time.
keep taking the tablets...
>
yours faithfully
azo
azo charif
contemporary neuroscientifc or psychological research paper than in the
whole works of gurdjieff et al..but people are attracted to the weird ,the
unusual, the exotic instead..they dont really seek Knowledge but just
excitment..
''salt is ignored by ants' and'water is ignored by fishes'.....
regards
azo
Chris Belcher <id...@alchymedia.com> wrote in message
news:110820000426535466%id...@alchymedia.com...
>
> The best answer that came to my mind about this issue is the chapter in
> "Kara Kush" entitled "Ride and Die!" I found it a thoughtul,
> descriptive and compassionate account of the sorts of communities you
> describe. For those without the patience to do so, it was pretty well
> summed up in one sentence:
>
> "A perfect replica of a Saracen knight perhaps: but no threat to the
> soldiers of a modern army..."
>
> Ancient traditions have their own beauty and eloquence -- but
> techniques can also be designed for the present environment. Riding
> out on horseback against tanks may be a romantic gesture of the highest
> order, but there are more current approaches which don't necessarily
> entail getting slaughtered. The world *has* changed since Rumi's, and
> Gurdjieff's, time...
>
> Chris
>
G.V.
> This implies that Gurdjieff was sent to 'experiment'. The 'experiment'
> lasted some time. My sources reveal that the 'experiment' lasted
> several decades.
Isn't it still going on?
> Who sent him? Were the experiments designed to be incomplete, if so
> why? There is no use blaming Gurdjieff for damage, several decades is a long time, enough to get something right.
It cannot be gotten right within Gurdjieffian circles, if that's what
you mean?
>
> > If you follow and analyze some of the techniques and tactics employed by Gurdieff, you can see that they were half-learnt. There is a great difference between learning a technique and knowing when to use it.
>
> Have you verified this statement for yourself. He clearly says 'some'
> were half-learnt. Do you know which ones?
Doubtful that many would know the specifics. However, it is quite obvious
that students of that system have not achieved any real development. It may
be very useful and interesting,though, for an actor looking to achieve a
different "presence" or approach to his craft IMO.
> Why did J.G.Bennett regard Gurdjieff as one of his Teachers, even after he had accepted Idries Shah?
It seemed to me that Bennett regarded many figures and situations in
his life as teachers, and he continued to seek out people until he
died.
>
> > What did Idires Shah say about Gurdjieff?
> Why did Idires Shah put so much effort into this?
Other than what was in previous posts, it seems that Shah felt he had a
mission in regards to the Work and to benefit whomever he could, including
some who'd studied the Gurdjieff system. However, I believe that he and
other teachers were/are quite happy if those who are attached to that domain
remain there.
> And, if they really knew, would they tell you, or anyone else, the
> truth of these matters?
In gene
Chris Belcher
wrote:
> Who do you think 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' is?
> Interesting isn't it: Asia, Mulla, 'Ashiata Shiemash', Hussein.
> Surely, not all just a coincidence!
Hello friend,
I wrote a long time ago (here's a challenge: can you find it?) about a
Sufi influence on Kahlil Gibran. But as Palestinian friend said, "If
he'd had sex, just once, in his life..."
There are myriad echoes of the Sufi transmition in our world.
I guess what I would propose within this newsgroup is Shattar's
approach:
"Teach me your method, share it with me. If you will not, I invite you
to share mine." (The Rapidness, in The Sufis)
Chris
Chris Belcher
<a...@chari.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > Who told you this?
> my grandfather,a shadhili faqir.he taught gurdjieff and some others 'the art
> of head shaving'...
LOL!!
Chris
jaye...@my-deja.com
> Why did Ernest Scott spend so much time
explaining Gurdjieff's role.
>
> Why did Idries Shah put so much effort into
this?
> Oh, what a complex weave....
>
people to think about the name Ernest Scott.
And about the fact that Idries Shah said that Sufis
published certain books, fascination with which would
mark people as unsuitable for their teaching.
azo charif
that evolution of life on earth is guided and directed for a purpose by some
extraterrestrial agency(sounds like raelism!) this theory is expounded by J
Benett (who rejects darwinism )before and it is not of sufic origin(see my
reply to the post re:evolution-islamic view- on this forum)....
maybe Francesca cud tell us more about this theory as she seemed to have
studied under Bennett or under one of his students....
i dont have the book anymore but i could remember that it contained few
historical errors:
examples:'erroros gazoruim' meant 'extremist sectes of algeria' and not 'of
andalusia'as it said in the book.
Nizam-el-mulk the vizir founder of nizamia academy is different person from
Nizami the sufi poet..
the description of Hassan Sabah movment is a one-sided one,it is a
description that was made up by their enemies the sunnis(see its anti-thesis
in ''among dervishes 'by Omar Burke)....
but apart from that,the book is very interesting IMO and i would recommend
its reading to anyone as long as one keep a critical mind about it..
azo
<jaye...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8n6239$vq7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > Why did Ernest Scott spend so much time
> explaining Gurdjieff's role.
> >
> > What did Idries Shah say about Gurdjieff?
> > Why did Idries Shah put so much effort into
> this?
> > Oh, what a complex weave....
> >
> Just to add to the complexity I would like to invite
> people to think about the name Ernest Scott.
>
> And about the fact that Idries Shah said that Sufis
> published certain books, fascination with which would
> mark people as unsuitable for their teaching.
>
>
terje
<jva...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8n10as$id9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> What Went Wrong
>
> "People where encouraged to do things, read things, and act in ways
> which were supposed to develop themselves.
> Many of these techniques applied by Gurdieff were applied at random,
> ("Given a certain circumstance we will do that") or else as a non-
> assimilated form of the original teaching. For example, one aspect of
> the Tradition is the conquest of the Self, in the sense that you do no
> become nothing, but the selfish or the "me first" attitude is
> deminished."
> "Because of this, a person who might be considered arrogant or falling
> according to some other yardstuck applied by Gurdieff, were expected to
> perform certain functions in public in order to |conquer| this self
> which was "controlling him" This led to many curious incidents and
> threw up many curious questions, because people could not understand
> how the so-called "conquest of the self "could be achieved by a
> particular action which appeared strange, unsusual or bizarre.
>
> In fact, It was a reflection of something which had been half -learnt.
> There is a saying in Afghanistan that a man who is half a doctor is a
> threat to your life; but a man who is a half Iman or religious teacher
>
> If you follow and analyze some of the techniques and tactics employed
> by Gurdieff, you can see that they were half-learnt. There is a great
> can learn the best technique in the world, but if you apply it at the
> wrong time and under the wrong curcumstances, it will fall on the
> ground. You have to be conscious of time, need, place and people: if
> any of these factors are absent, the result, to put it mildly, is
> confusion, and at its maximum , it is damage"
> Sayed Omar Ali Shah (The Sufi Tradition in the West)
>
>
> Question: How can you respect a person who knowingly experiments on
> people.
>
> In the Tradition you either do something properly or not at all,
> (Master of the Option) when dealing with people there is no margin for
> error, so with regard to what damage did Gurdieff do (and his
> successors still do) , How do you measure Human suffering? Would you
> send your children to a school of such teachers?
I would send them to that Perfect School everybody is alluding to, but I
can't seem to find it anywhere........
Cheers,
Henrik
Jay Vogelsong
terje wrote:
> I would send them to that Perfect School everybody is alluding to, but I
> can't seem to find it anywhere........
Somewhere, Idries Shah wrote that the world itself is the school of the
Sufi.
michel
"Jay Vogelsong" <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote:
> Somewhere, Idries Shah wrote that the world itself is the school of
the
> Sufi.
>
...and the fool is his teacher. But doesn't that statement fall under
the 'generalities' label?
Some kids learn from the street, but they'll eventually need a tutor to
survive...
Michel
otto...@my-deja.com
michel <mic...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <01c00726$03d33960$712267cf@default>,
> "Jay Vogelsong" <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote:
>
> the
> > Sufi.
> >
>
> the 'generalities' label?
>
> Some kids learn from the street, but they'll eventually need a tutor to
> survive...
we are told we cannot find a teacher by looking for a teacher but that we
need a teacher to learn. the desire for a teacher and a school in the
literal sense has, as I understand it, many roots that stem from some
place the least of which is the desire to learn. some kids may learn
from the street; most street kids are conditioned by street life.
cheers,
james
jaye...@my-deja.com
otto...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8ne69c$nn3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> michel <mic...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <01c00726$03d33960$712267cf@default>,
> > "Jay Vogelsong" <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote:
> >
of
> > the
> > > Sufi.
> > >
> >
under
> > the 'generalities' label?
> >
> > Some kids learn from the street, but they'll eventually need a tutor
to
> > survive...
>
> we are told we cannot find a teacher by looking for a teacher but that
we
> need a teacher to learn. the desire for a teacher and a school in the
> literal sense has, as I understand it, many roots that stem from some
> place the least of which is the desire to learn. some kids may learn
> from the street; most street kids are conditioned by street life.
>
> cheers,
>
> james
never the pupil who finds the teacher, but always the teacher that finds
the pupil (who often may not have been looking at all ...).
I remember a beautiful parable by Idries Shah where a man asks a Sufi if
he could make another man, seen some distance away in a field, perform a
number of distinct actions. The man duly performs the actions, and, when
questioned afterwards, explains to them how he arrived at "his decision"
to behave in the manner observed. That parable set me thinking ...
Cheers
Jayen
Jay Vogelsong
otto...@my-deja.com wrote:
> we are told we cannot find a teacher by looking for a teacher but that we
> need a teacher to learn. the desire for a teacher and a school in the
> literal sense has, as I understand it, many roots that stem from some
> place the least of which is the desire to learn. some kids may learn
> from the street; most street kids are conditioned by street life.
This talk of finding the perfect school or the perfect teacher reminds me
of looking for an honest man, in broad daylight, with a candle. Remember
the story "The Perfect Master" in Wisdom of the Idiots? One learns to
connect with honesty in others, and truth in the world, by practicing being
honest and truthful oneself.
How many street kids ended up on the street because they were truthful?
Not many I would guess.
jaye...@my-deja.com
"The Land of Truth" in Thinkers of the East, where Khidr says, "And you
met me because you had sufficient sincerity to desire Truth for its own
sake, just for an instant. It was that sincerity, in that single
instant, which made me answer your call."
terje
"Jay Vogelsong" <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:01c00726$03d33960$712267cf@default...
And somewhere Gurdjieff wrote that everything is to be used.
If Life is The School, then what is a False School ?
Jay Vogelsong
terje wrote:
> If Life is The School, then what is a False School ?
Those associations which try to limit us to something less than the full
possible range of useful impacts, I would guess. This does not mean we
should try drinking poison for instance, since we must keep in mind our
limitations and the limitations of situations, but that we should realize
that even poison can be used to kill rats, for instance.
terje
False life, pseudo-life, imitations of life, "death in life,".....so, it
would seem that the question of "what is a Real School" is in at least one
sense not really an organizational question with an easy answer to it.
jaye...@my-deja.com
I too found the book interesting, but the longer I read it, the more I
had the impression that it was all about "knowing about", rather than
about knowing oneself. A straw fire.
To put it another way, the book seemed singularly, even astonishingly,
empty. I found it entirely devoid of that nourishment that oozes from
the pages of Shah's other works (since I would be very surprised if the
"Earnest Scot" was anyone other than Shah).
In the end, I concluded that the book was an elaborate joke (a joke with
a function, though).
A book that seemed similarly fascinating (more so to women readers,
perhaps) and "empty" was "My Khyber Marriage".
What do you think?
Best wishes
Jayen
In article <8n68hc$veh$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > > Why did Ernest Scott spend so much time
> > explaining Gurdjieff's role.
> > >
> > > What did Idries Shah say about Gurdjieff?
> > > Why did Idries Shah put so much effort into
> > this?
> > > Oh, what a complex weave....
> > >
> > Just to add to the complexity I would like to invite
> > people to think about the name Ernest Scott.
> >
> > And about the fact that Idries Shah said that Sufis
> > published certain books, fascination with which would
> > mark people as unsuitable for their teaching.
> >
> >
azo charif
'in sufism' that is,has its writing recieved the blessing of 'the guardians
of the tradition' so as to to have a developmental effects on readers or
just an ordinary book of entertainment and information?sorry iam just
curious and you dont have to answer te question if you dont feel lile doing
so....
regards
azo
<jaye...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8o2s2r$38j$1@nnry
p1.deja.com...
> > > explaining Gurdjieff's role.
> > > >
> > > > Why did Idries Shah put so much effort into
> > > this?
> > > > Oh, what a complex weave....
> > > >
> > > people to think about the name Ernest Scott.
> > >
> > > And about the fact that Idries Shah said that Sufis
> > > published certain books, fascination with which would
> > > mark people as unsuitable for their teaching.
> > >
> > >
jaye...@my-deja.com
I am posting a reply under the www.sufi-net.com thread, since that is a
more appropriate location for it.
J.
In article <8o5mrn$br5$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > > > > Why did Ernest Scott spend so much time
> > > > explaining Gurdjieff's role.
> > > > >
> > > > > What did Idries Shah say about Gurdjieff?
> > > > > Why did Idries Shah put so much effort into
> > > > this?
> > > > > Oh, what a complex weave....
> > > > >
> > > > Just to add to the complexity I would like to invite
> > > > people to think about the name Ernest Scott.
> > > >
> > > > And about the fact that Idries Shah said that Sufis
> > > > published certain books, fascination with which would
> > > > mark people as unsuitable for their teaching.
> > > >
> > > >
T
'the Sufi tradition in the west' which is titled Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and
the Mandate. The book is available at www.rappinc.com/786SUFI/USA.html.
<jaye...@my-deja.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
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