If Gurdjieff, Shah, and Bennett can be called "Sufis", so can Jan Cox
sab...@mindspring.com
dedicated to studying the "Sufi" methods of awakening.
And yet there IS no "Sufi" ANYTHING, really...just a group of
people from various cultures who have found a certain knowledge and
endeavoured to find ways to share it w/people in their own (or other)
cultures.
Idries Shah is on Oxford educated man from the Eastern
Mediterranean area whose readership is largely American and whose area
of speciality is basically Islamic. J. G.Bennett studied w/Gurdjieff,
a man from the Southern Russian Cacasus mountain region who claimed
that he had learned much of what he knew from "dervishes" and people
of the western Orient.
Yet most of the people on this newsgroup are members of a late
20th/early 21st century American/Western European culture.
The most effective teachers of this thing have most often been
those that thoroughly understood the culture and lives of those they
taught.
If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
<http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
He does not speak of his antecedents or teachers, saying that such
matters are most often merely a distraction and hobby for those
seriously involved in ttempting to awaken, but what he writes (and
what he teaches) is an AMERICAN approach to the subject, written by
someone who really understands the culture from within.
Anyone who has experienced this kind of teaching in another form
will instantly recognize his approach as "true"... as true as
Gurdjieff, as true as Shah...and I can tell you from extensive
personal experience that he is a real teacher.
Thank you...
S.
P.S. I do not write this because I am trolling for students...or
for any other reward for either Jan or myself, for that matter (an
accusation that has come up on a couple of other newsgroups this last
few weeks)...but rather as news of another interesting path for those
w/the proper aim, a reassuring bit of information that the necessary
(albeit very rare) work lives on in many forms and many cultures.
Jerry layman
With regular contributors to this forum from three continents, isn't it a
little presumptious to tout "Jan" as a "teacher whose birth culture is MOST
similar to yours."
If an author refuses to provide a C.V. demonstrating his qualifications,
then the merit of his publication must be solely ascertained from his
writing. When no references are provided for statements made, the the proof
must be self evident.
What I have sampled is certainly not in the same class as either of the Shah
brothers, or for that matter of Ouspensky or Gurdjieff (when not writing
allegory).
Suggest that you and Jan contribute to this newsgroup and let your comments
bear the scrutiny and criticism, sometimes constructive, of those who lurk
here.
Regards,
Jerry
<sab...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3a3d1402...@news.mindspring.com...
eart...@my-deja.com
>just a group of
> people from various cultures...
> Yet most of the people on this newsgroup are members of a late
> 20th/early 21st century American/Western European culture...
Assumption upon assumption
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sufi= Light upon Light
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Off to fight the Moscow traffic for my nightly Big Mac and fries...
Enjoy!
‰
‰
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
sab...@mindspring.com
>Dear Sabutin,
>
>With regular contributors to this forum from three continents, isn't it a
>little presumptious to tout "Jan" as a "teacher whose birth culture is MOST
>similar to yours."
========================
Yes, it is...I have read the entire collection of posts available
on this newsgroup at the present moment, and it appears there are some
people here from the U.K., one who resides in Moscow (?), and several
w/Arabic names. (I don't know where they live or were born.)
Nevertheless, all are communicating in English on a fairly refined
level, and all are alive at the present time.
Thus, I will rephrase my statement...
Jan Cox was born in The United States and has lived there (and in
parts of Europe) during the 2cd half of the 20th century. For those of
us who have similar backgrounds, he is closer to (and therefore more
attuned to) the cultural upbringing of many of us than J.G. Bennett,
Idries Shah or G. I. Gurdjieff.
By the way...why do you put parentheses around the word "Jan"
above? Are you suggesting he is not "real", or not really who he says
he is...or are you just trying to subtly put him down?
=============================
>If an author refuses to provide a C.V. demonstrating his qualifications,
======================
What is a C.V ?
Certificate of Validation?
Who is doing the validating?
======================
>then the merit of his publication must be solely ascertained from his
>writing. When no references are provided for statements made, the the proof
>must be self evident.
>
>What I have sampled is certainly not in the same class as either of the Shah
>brothers, or for that matter of Ouspensky or Gurdjieff (when not writing
>allegory).
===================
"Certainly not in the same class" is the catch in this otherwise
perfectly rational and accurate statement.
In YOUR view what you have read is "not in the same class".
What you have written, in MY view (since you do not proffer any
documents demonstrating YOUR qualifications in these matters...
documents which, by the way, I would suggest are likely to mean less
than nothing regarding this thing, this search for awakening) suggests
to me that you have missed the content of what you read.
=================================
>
>Suggest that you and Jan contribute to this newsgroup and let your comments
>bear the scrutiny and criticism, sometimes constructive, of those who lurk
>here.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jerry
======================
That is what I am doing.
I will post some of Jan's writing as well...or, simply go to his
website at:
<http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
and see for yourself. He writes a new post every day...amazing stuff,
from one point of view.
S.
---snip---
es...@my-deja.com
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Here we have a newsgroup called "alt.sufi", made up of those
> dedicated to studying the "Sufi" methods of awakening.
>
> And yet there IS no "Sufi" ANYTHING, really...just a group of
> people from various cultures who have found a certain knowledge and
> endeavoured to find ways to share it w/people in their own (or other)
> cultures.
Rarely do I comment on another's affairs but this bears looking into.
There are several Nasrudin stories that immediately come to mind which
reveal certain patterns of thought indicated here.
"The Call"
Nasrudin had just given the call to prayer and was seen
leaving quickly from the minaret.
"Where are you going?" someone yelled.
"That was the most piercing call I've ever given" Nasrudin yelled back,
"I'm going to see just how far it carries!"
Here Nasrudin assumes that he is able to hear himself objectively,
that he can hear what he just said. (that he is able to 'hear' all
the underlying assumptions upon which he raises his 'call').
>
> If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
> similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
>
> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
>
> and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
> He does not speak of his antecedents or teachers, saying that such
> matters are most often merely a distraction and hobby for those
> seriously involved in attempting to awaken, but what he writes (and
> what he teaches) is an AMERICAN approach to the subject, written by
> someone who really understands the culture from within.
The little fish swam up to the big fish saying:
"Tell us of this thing we just heard about called 'water'"
"The Woman and the Sugar"
When Nasrudin was a magistrate, a woman came to him with her son.
"This youth", she said, "eats too much sugar, I cannot afford to
keep him in it. Forbid him to eat it, as he will not obey me."
Nasrudin told her to come back in seven days.
When she returned he postponed his decision for another week.
"Now", he said to the youth, "I forbid you to eat more than such
such a quantity of sugar every day."
The woman asked him why so much time had been necessary before a
simple order could be given.
"Because madam, I had to see whether I myself could cut down on the
use of sugar, before ordering anyone else to do it."
Only with experience, can one know what true discrimination is.
There are certain needs that must be maintained. Everything is
simpler in theory. To generalize is to fall prey to assumption
and prejudice.
>
>
> Anyone who has experienced this kind of teaching in another form
> will instantly recognize his approach as "true"... as true as
> Gurdjieff, as true as Shah...and I can tell you from extensive
> personal experience that he is a real teacher.
>
'There's more light here"
Nasrudin was on his hands and knees searching under a streetlight at
night.
A neighbor asked, "What have you lost Mullah?"
"I've lost my key" said Nasrudin.
After a few minutes of searching, the neighbor said,
"Where did you drop it?"
"At home."
"Then why for heaven's sake are you looking here?"
"Because there's more light here."
What is right is only right for oneself.
(Often for the oddest of reasons)
Each finds what is proper to each.
"Everything in it's own time, it's own place"
>
> S.
>
> P.S. I do not write this because I am trolling for students...or
> for any other reward for either Jan or myself, for that matter (an
> accusation that has come up on a couple of other newsgroups this last
> few weeks)...but rather as news of another interesting path for those
> w/the proper aim, a reassuring bit of information that the necessary
> (albeit very rare) work lives on in many forms and many cultures.
"Two Halves"
Nasrudin opened a lecture agency.
He knew so many people who felt that they had something
interesting to say. Why not become their agent?
The ones who felt that they were interesting,
however, were not usually interesting people.
He got many complaints.
"Next time I shall make sure," he said.
One day a telegram arrived from a study society:
PLEASE SUPPLY A WIT TO ADDRESS OUR GROUP ON SUNDAY.
"This time I can make sure," said the Mulla. He sent two
of his lecturers, and replied by telegram:
WITS DIFFICULT TO FIND SO HAVE SENT TWO HALF-WITS INSTEAD.
How often do we 'double cross' ourselves? (just to make sure!).
E
G.V.
> Idries Shah is on Oxford educated man from the Eastern
> Mediterranean area whose readership is largely American and whose area
> of speciality is basically Islamic. J. G.Bennett studied w/Gurdjieff,
> a man from the Southern Russian Cacasus mountain region who claimed
> that he had learned much of what he knew from "dervishes" and people
> of the western Orient.
Inaccurate on nuerous details here, as most in this NG would know.
>
> If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
> similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
>
> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
>
> and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
>
> He does not speak of his antecedents or teachers, saying that such
> matters are most often merely a distraction and hobby for those
> seriously involved in ttempting to awaken, but what he writes (and
> what he teaches) is an AMERICAN approach to the subject, written by
> someone who really understands the culture from within.
Is American culture that different from Western? Beyond a certain
point, such differences between various Western "cultures" would be
irrelevant, at least in regard to a real teaching.
>
> Anyone who has experienced this kind of teaching in another form
> will instantly recognize his approach as "true"... as true as
> Gurdjieff, as true as Shah...and I can tell you from extensive
> personal experience that he is a real teacher.
>
And I have a jacket with a label that assures me it is "genuine
imitation fur."
> S.
>
> P.S. I do not write this because I am trolling for students...or
> for any other reward for either Jan or myself, for that matter (an
> accusation that has come up on a couple of other newsgroups this last
> few weeks)...but rather as news of another interesting path for those
> w/the proper aim, a reassuring bit of information that the necessary
> (albeit very rare) work lives on in many forms and many cultures.
With his books being available since at least 1978 or so, some might
not consider this news.
Your motives may be pure as snow -- no matter. So long as you can
handle the disappointment that many here and elsewhere might prefer
to "travel to Moscow for a Big Mac" to your offer (including the
vegetarians).
There are many people who are very nice, inspiring, extraordinary,
sincere, downright delightful, funny, maybe able to move mountains of
people, and so forth. And if others choose to consider them teachers,
they are free to live with their choices.
GV
michel
a french-speaking enclave of north america. A georgian established in
paris or an afghan based in london... not a big deal.
I have been to the cox website and have decided (for myself only, of
course) that he doesn't fit. Much too verbose. And that was only one
daily post.
Michel
michel
Michel
sab...@mindspring.com
>In article <3a3d1402...@news.mindspring.com>,
> sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> Here we have a newsgroup called "alt.sufi", made up of those
>> dedicated to studying the "Sufi" methods of awakening.
>>
>> And yet there IS no "Sufi" ANYTHING, really...just a group of
>> people from various cultures who have found a certain knowledge and
>> endeavoured to find ways to share it w/people in their own (or other)
>> cultures.
>
>Rarely do I comment on another's affairs but this bears looking into.
>There are several Nasrudin stories that immediately come to mind which
>reveal certain patterns of thought indicated here.
>
>"The Call"
>
>Nasrudin had just given the call to prayer and was seen
>leaving quickly from the minaret.
>
>"Where are you going?" someone yelled.
>
>"That was the most piercing call I've ever given" Nasrudin yelled back,
>"I'm going to see just how far it carries!"
>
>Here Nasrudin assumes that he is able to hear himself objectively,
>that he can hear what he just said. (that he is able to 'hear' all
>the underlying assumptions upon which he raises his 'call').
>
=======================
You certainly know a number of Nasrudin stories !!!
=============================
>> If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
>> similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
>>
>> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
>>
>> and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
>
>> He does not speak of his antecedents or teachers, saying that such
>> matters are most often merely a distraction and hobby for those
>> seriously involved in attempting to awaken, but what he writes (and
>> what he teaches) is an AMERICAN approach to the subject, written by
>> someone who really understands the culture from within.
>
>The little fish swam up to the big fish saying:
>"Tell us of this thing we just heard about called 'water'"
>
====================
And Sufi teaching stories too !!!
====================
>"The Woman and the Sugar"
>
>When Nasrudin was a magistrate, a woman came to him with her son.
>"This youth", she said, "eats too much sugar, I cannot afford to
>keep him in it. Forbid him to eat it, as he will not obey me."
>
>Nasrudin told her to come back in seven days.
>
>When she returned he postponed his decision for another week.
>
>"Now", he said to the youth, "I forbid you to eat more than such
>such a quantity of sugar every day."
>
>The woman asked him why so much time had been necessary before a
>simple order could be given.
>
>"Because madam, I had to see whether I myself could cut down on the
>use of sugar, before ordering anyone else to do it."
>
>Only with experience, can one know what true discrimination is.
>There are certain needs that must be maintained. Everything is
>simpler in theory. To generalize is to fall prey to assumption
>and prejudice.
>
=====================
But your commentaries are weak.
===================
>>
>> Anyone who has experienced this kind of teaching in another form
>> will instantly recognize his approach as "true"... as true as
>> Gurdjieff, as true as Shah...and I can tell you from extensive
>> personal experience that he is a real teacher.
>>
>
>'There's more light here"
>
>Nasrudin was on his hands and knees searching under a streetlight at
>night.
>
>A neighbor asked, "What have you lost Mullah?"
>
>"I've lost my key" said Nasrudin.
>
>After a few minutes of searching, the neighbor said,
>"Where did you drop it?"
>
>"At home."
>
>"Then why for heaven's sake are you looking here?"
>
>"Because there's more light here."
>
>What is right is only right for oneself.
>(Often for the oddest of reasons)
>Each finds what is proper to each.
>
====================
In fact, when you get right down to it, ALL commentaries are
weak... especially commentaries about multilayered teaching stories
such as the ones you have quoted here.
As soon as you "explain" them, they are dead. (ESPECIALLY if you
explain them to yourself.)
"Yourself" is both your own best audience and your own worst enemy.
You know how I see this response of yours?
You are in a comfortable sleeping position w/your Nasrudin stories,
your Sufi books, and anything new challenges that comfort.
You say "little fish", "big fish", essentially casting this
approach as the little fish that tries to get the big fish to tell it
about what the oh-so-self-evident water the little fish has just
discovered.
Is it not possible that this new fish is simply attempting to tell
people about the water in a new way?
S.
=====================
sab...@mindspring.com
>sabutin wrote:
>
>> Idries Shah is on Oxford educated man from the Eastern
>> Mediterranean area whose readership is largely American and whose area
>> of speciality is basically Islamic. J. G.Bennett studied w/Gurdjieff,
>> a man from the Southern Russian Cacasus mountain region who claimed
>> that he had learned much of what he knew from "dervishes" and people
>> of the western Orient.
>
>Inaccurate on nuerous details here, as most in this NG would know.
======================
Forgive my factual inaccuracies...I am a student of awakening, not
the personal history of past teachers.
Could you please tell me where I am factually inaccurate above, so
that I will not repeat this offence in the future?
===============================
>>
>> If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
>> similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
>>
>> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
>>
>> and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
>>
>> He does not speak of his antecedents or teachers, saying that such
>> matters are most often merely a distraction and hobby for those
>> seriously involved in ttempting to awaken, but what he writes (and
>> what he teaches) is an AMERICAN approach to the subject, written by
>> someone who really understands the culture from within.
>
>Is American culture that different from Western? Beyond a certain
>point, such differences between various Western "cultures" would be
>irrelevant, at least in regard to a real teaching.
===================
You mean is American culture that different from Western European
culture?
Yes.
Bird, Hemingway, Lucille Ball, Groucho, Elvis, Monk, Ellington,
Lincoln, Doctorow, Plath, Clarabell, Ford, Cronkite, Corvettes,
Marines, Babo cleanser, potholes, Viet Nam, Mr. Greenjeans, "y'all",
John Ford, Sacajawea, Nixon...not enough bandwidth on the entire
internet to finish the list.
THIS is the water in which WE swim, this is the cultural language,
semiotically speaking, in which we exist and mcan be taught most
efficiently.
I've heard it saiud Nasrudin stories and Zen koans about goldfish
in a cermonial garden pond are "universal", and perhaps they
are...but they are much MORE "universal" to the people to whom they
were first addressed than they are to us.
====================
>>
>> Anyone who has experienced this kind of teaching in another form
>> will instantly recognize his approach as "true"... as true as
>> Gurdjieff, as true as Shah...and I can tell you from extensive
>> personal experience that he is a real teacher.
>>
>And I have a jacket with a label that assures me it is "genuine
>imitation fur."
>
=====================
MMMMM...one who needs a label needs more than just a jacket...or is
it less????
===================
>> S.
>>
>> P.S. I do not write this because I am trolling for students...or
>> for any other reward for either Jan or myself, for that matter (an
>> accusation that has come up on a couple of other newsgroups this last
>> few weeks)...but rather as news of another interesting path for those
>> w/the proper aim, a reassuring bit of information that the necessary
>> (albeit very rare) work lives on in many forms and many cultures.
>
> With his books being available since at least 1978 or so, some might
>not consider this news.
=================
Not very widely distributed; nor has he concentrated much on
attracting new students. A few years of traveling regularly to other
cities to speak w/small groups...a few cable TV shows...
If this is not news to you, then I guess you're really on top of
things in this area.
And if you are not attracted to the way he teaches...that is
entirely as it should be. Entirely as it MUST be.
============================
>
> Your motives may be pure as snow -- no matter. So long as you can
>handle the disappointment that many here and elsewhere might prefer
>to "travel to Moscow for a Big Mac" to your offer (including the
>vegetarians).
==================
No disappointment possible.
Them that can, will.
Them that don't, won't.
(Actually, there's a very good McDonald's in Moscow. Big, too, and
CROWDED...!!! I thought the food was infinitely better than that
offered in stateside McDs...but that's a whole 'nother story...)
===============
=====================
>There are many people who are very nice, inspiring, extraordinary,
>sincere, downright delightful, funny, maybe able to move mountains of
>people, and so forth. And if others choose to consider them teachers,
>they are free to live with their choices.
======================
That's right....
And there are books of teaching stories and beautifully written
biographies and commentaries on the lives and teachings of the
teachers of old... if others choose to consider THEM as a source of
real knowledge, they are free to live with their choices as well.
As it should be.
S.
sab...@mindspring.com
Jay Vogelsong
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
> similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
>
> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
>
> and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
Thanks for the information, but I personally don't typically assess
people's ideas on the basis of their background, or their similarity to me.
For that matter, I haven't really gone looking for a teacher at all, only
for ideas that filled the gaps in my worldview. Right now I have plenty to
work with, as I have for many years now.
Different people learn Sufism in different ways.
jva...@my-deja.com
and awake yourself to provide such a perfect illustration of neo-zelot
synadrome.
Your overt behaviour is a reflection of some peoples covert behaviour.
you must be following the Path of blame.
I especially liked your illustration of people who don't bother to
research materials properly, and the obsessive compulsive was one of
the best I've seen.
Good luck in your recruitment drive, however I will not be joining the
circus as Idries Shah's Mother came from Edinburgh (Scotland) and his
father studied at Edinburgh University I find he is more in tune with
our culture, also as Daric Persian spoken in Afghanistan is very
similar to Gaelic Scots I find I can understand the langauge better
than the Beatbox jabber of Jan Cox.
Best wishes JV
jaye...@my-deja.com
> If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
> similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
>
> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
>
> and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
Thanks for bringing Jan Cox to my attention, Sabutin. However, having
read two or three of his daily posts, I can find nothing original in
them. In my view, he is not connected to a real source of knowledge.
Best wishes
Jayen
france...@my-deja.com
A few reminders....
"Simplification and systematisation of ideas can only be done by people
who are capable of it. These tasks are, however, almost always
attempted by people who are not capable of it. The basic qualifications
for simplification is a complete knowledge of the materials."
Horrible coat?
==============
When a man says, 'How do you like my new coat?' you must not say,'It is
horrible,' unless you can manage to give him a better one, or teach him
better taste in dress. SOME PEOPLE CANNOT BE TAUGHT. "Rumi said : 'You
cannot teach by disagreement.'
Idries Shah - THE SUFIS pag 355, 'The Teacher, the Teaching,the Taught'
'What makes them so difficult to discuss is that their mutual
recognition cannot be explained in ordinary moral or psychological
terms - whoever understands it is himself a Sufi. Though awareness of
this secret quality or instinct can be sharpened by close contact with
Sufis of experience, there are no hierarchical degrees among them, only
a general undisputed recognition of greater or lesser capacity.'
Authenticity:
=============
Q.: By what signs in oneself can one tell whether a teaching is the
right one "for me"?
A.: By sensations and reactions which differ *completely* from
customary ones. Indications which one does not experience through
the contact with *anything* else. In contacting Sufism, you are
coming into a relationship with a completely new experience. Its
sensation is correspondingly different from established "religious"
or other experiences.
Consideration 21
================
People must now learn something which was formerly only taught
in secret: that there are many varieties of spiritual, social,
religious grouping. They are all time-centred. Most of them are
anachronistic. In all of them except for real inner teachings
there are serious contaminants stemming from their sojourn in
the terrestrial sphere which makes them hazardous to everyone to
a degree at least equivalent to their value.
Whoever gives advice to a heedless man is himself in need of advice.
Saadi of Shiraz.
When the camel of our efforts sinks into the mud, what matter whether
the destination is near or far?
Ustad Khalilullah Khalili
Oh by the way, what is "Rabies"?
In article <3a3d1402...@news.mindspring.com>,
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
Al
>
>
Rabies is a Jewish priest.
glu...@my-deja.com
I扉e been observing the whole newsgroup... I think that it would be
intersting that we could read the books written by Omar Ali Shah,
Idrieæ„€ brother. He continues his work in the West.
Our groups are in almost every country of Europe, USA and Latin America
(Mexico, Argentina, Brasil), from where I惴 writing. "Dervish
International" is in charge of editing the texts, which cover the most
common question of the seekers.
As Salam Aleikun,
Gustavo Lunz (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)
sab...@mindspring.com
=========================
Thank you for your kind words.
I am still amazed at the hostility that automatically runs through
humanity, even though I have "understood" it for almost 20 years.
Whether angry at the letter carrier for his lateness or at Jan Cox
for his idiom, it is the single most powerful weapon Life uses to
maintain sleep in human beings.
S.
sab...@mindspring.com
=======================
And SIMILAR people learn "Sufism" in similar ways.
That is the point I was making.
Further, if you are not at least occasionally physically in the
presence of a teacher, you are NOT learning the thing that is at the
root of "Sufism", which is an awakening or change of some sort (no
final words possible for that which is really the END of words).
The ideas you seek to fill the gaps in your worldview, as you put
it, are simply dreams to be slotted into your sleeping dreamscape.
Only a living teacher can provide the proper information at the proper
time for one to even BEGIN to awaken, and even the greatest of them
are hard pressed to do so w/most "seekers".
S,
sab...@mindspring.com
=======================
There IS nothing "original", Jayen, only original ways of stating
things, and in that regard, I must disagree...Jan Cox is like no one
else in the world, and his approach to teaching is unlike any other I
have ever encountered.
As far as his being "connected to a real source of knowledge"...if
he is successful in teaching a certain "change" to others, then he IS
"connected etc." The proof in is the results.
And he has been successful at this task.
One way of ascertaining the validity of anything like this IS by
its originality...an "original" teacher is not necessarily teaching
the truth of the matter, but an UNORIGINAL one certainly has only a
glimpse of it, if he has THAT much.
When you say " having read two or three of his daily posts, I can
find nothing original in them. In my view, he is not connected to a
real source of knowledge" the operative words in that statement are
"in my view".
I am not saying that his teaching is for everyone...in fact,
awakening itself is only for a very, very few. (Few are called, even
fewer are chosen...) However, in the sincere hope that you might one
day "change", I suggest that you you would do well to examine the idea
of "your view" in greater detail.
(To say the least on the matter...)
S.
france...@my-deja.com
I think Omar says it much better than I could hope to do so:
"The Sufi Tradition is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a
philosophy of life, and its purpose is to offer to man a practical path
to enable him to achieve a measure of higher development, (and) through
this elevated consciousness, to be able to understand his relationship
with the Supreme Being.
We hold that the purity of man's inner being, in harmony with the
Scheme of the Master Designer, can lift him from the mundane and shield
him from the corruption and contamination of the world outside. This
does not mean a need to retreat into a mountain cave or hermitage. On
the contrary, it means to be a full (and) better member of society; to
be in the World and not of the World; to follow rules and disciplines
to bring an inner peace, and by example, to instruct other worthy
people, with humility and purpose; to hark to the voice of Nature that
the secrets of the Tradition may become known, but only to those whose
intentions are pure,(and who)can swear, Witnessed be the Lord of Life,
that they will use the Wisdoms truly and well.
The Tradition is offered to the West with sincerity and deep purpose.
If the Sufi message finds an echo in the West, then let its fraternity
transcend time and distance, and may the sharing of the Secrets bring
this planet into Divine Favour".
Sayed Omar Ali-Shah Naqshband
For those interested in his books please see:
http://www.alifbooks.com/
In article <91nqcb$qil$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
sab...@mindspring.com
===========================
Francesca...
I find this post right on the point , except for two things.
The first is a small question...why do you ask "...what is
'rabies' " ? Everything else in this post makes immediate sense to
me...this question does not, at least not in context.
The second...and I find this question endemic to almost EVERY group
of people studying a "way" of one sort or another...is this:
You quote Rumi, Saadi of Shiraz, Ustad Khalilullah Khalili, and I
suspect that there are a couple of unattributed quotes or paraphrases
in there as well.
How do you know this is what they said, and further, how do you
know what they meant when they said it?
Translated and retranslated, even the simplest statement loses much
of its original content. As it ravels throughother languages and
cultures it becomes a cartoon of itself, a mediocre reproduction of a
line drawing that was once based on a fully developed painting.
For example, you say " Rumi said : 'You cannot teach by
disagreement.' " Did you read this in its original language?
In the dialect of Persian in which Rumi spoke, what are the true
meanings of the original words which stood for the words "you",
"cannot", "teach", "by" and "disagreement".
Were you there when he said this to question him, to try to truly
understand what he meant by this?
Was the translator?
On the face of it, this statement appears not to be universally
true...Gurdjieff certainly often "taught by disagreement", for
instance. as on other levels do many teachers of other
things...sports, physics, refrigerator repair, plumbing...
I do not mean to attack the relative truth of the statements you
quote here..whether said by Rumi or the corner butcher, they make fair
sense in this context...only to question your evident belief in the
SOURCES of the statements, your reliance on the "rumour" of Rumi or
Saadi of Shiraz.(O r Idries Shah, for that matter unless you have
PERSONALLY studied w/him.)
This set of ideas alone is enough reason to seek out a living
teacher.
Jan Cox is a living teacher whose work style could be said to
resemble those that are commonly and popularly lumped together as
"Sufi"...could be considered rather "Zen-like" as well, or resembling
some "Yoga" approaches also, but all this doesn't really matter.
As you say in your post:
"Q.: By what signs in oneself can one tell whether a teaching is the
right one 'for me'?"
"A.: By sensations and reactions which differ *completely* from
customary ones. Indications which one does not experience through
the contact with *anything* else. In contacting Sufism, you are
coming into a relationship with a completely new experience. Its
sensation is correspondingly different from established 'religious'
or other experiences."
Although you do not attribute this statement to anyone else (sounds
like Idries Shah...), it is as true as anything else you quote here
(truer, perhaps), and a perfect picture of what happens to many people
when they come into contact w/Jan Cox.
Couldn't have said it better myself (even if it WAS translated from
some other language.)
S.
Eric Twose
news:3a3d1402...@news.mindspring.com...
> P.S. I do not write this because I am trolling for students...or
> for any other reward for either Jan or myself, for that matter (an
> accusation that has come up on a couple of other newsgroups this last
> few weeks)...but rather as news of another interesting path for those
> w/the proper aim, a reassuring bit of information that the necessary
> (albeit very rare) work lives on in many forms and many cultures.
Dear friend,
The work is not at all rare,
It is everywhere where it is to be found.
Go to the barred window of your Master's palace,
And from your solitary confinement,
Look out.
What do you see?
Mud or stars?
Best put on your sunglasses, friend
And take deep breaths.
What revelations do you see in these strangers'
weary, fearful, deep-set, shadowed eye-sockets?
Do your legs not shake as you walk through the crowd?
Does a lump not arise in your throat?
As the smoking mountain erupts within you,
Behold one thousandth part
of what the Sufi sees.
'Tis more than most can bear.
Behold, the whole world is our bee-hive
And beyond.
Knowing How To Know
-------------------------
"HE WHO KNOWS and does not know that he knows: he is asleep. Let him become
one, whole. Let him be awakened.
He who has known but does not know: let him see once more the beginning of
all.
He who does not wish to know, and yet says that he needs to know: let him be
guided to safety and to light.
He who does not know, and knows that he does not know: let him, through this
knowledge, know.
He who does not know, but thinks that he knows: set him free from the
confusion of that ignorance.
He who knows, and knows that *he is*: he is wise: Let him be followed. By
his presence alone man may be transformed."
"I WHO KNOW and do not know that I know: let me become one, whole. Let me be
awakened.
I who have known but do not know: let me see once more the beginning of all.
I who do not wish to know, and yet say that I need to know: let me be guided
to safety and to light.
I who do not know, and know that I do not know: let me, through this
knowledge, know.
I who do not know, but think that I know: set me free from the confusion of
that ignorance.
He who knows, and knows that *he is*: he is wise: Let him be followed. By
his presence alone man may be transformed."
"WE WHO KNOW and do not know that we know: let us become one, whole. Let us
be transformed.
We who have known but do not know: let us once more see the beginning of
all.
We who do not wish to know, and yet say that we need to know: let us be
guided to safety and to light.
We who do not know, and know that we do not know: let us, through this
knowledge, know.
We who do not know, but think that we know: set us free from the confusion
of that ignorance.
He who knows, and knows that *he is*: he is wise: Let him be followed. By
his presence alone man may be transformed."
"AS WITH our forebears, So with our successors, So with us. We affirm this
undertaking. So let it be."
Sarmoun recital, quoted by Idries Shah in the Way of the Sufi,
www.octagonpress.com
jva...@my-deja.com
> Thank you for your kind words.
>
> I am still amazed at the hostility that automatically runs through
> humanity, even though I have "understood" it for almost 20 years.
The Truth speaks for itself I am only the mess-anger
Lita Alexander (Bablyon 5)
Of course hostility is also a useful tool when you are in control of
it, as a means of deflecting those neither willing nor ready to adopt
as you would put it the correct aim.
>
> Whether angry at the letter carrier for his lateness or at Jan Cox
> for his idiom, it is the single most powerful weapon Life uses to
> maintain sleep in human beings.
Sleeping:
The ordinary man:
writes without knowing how the recipient will perceive his letter and
writes often,
The educated man.
writes less and his careful how he write as he is uncertain that the
recipient will understand his letter.
The Sufi
rarely writes, but he writes with full perception of the condition of
the recipient when he reads it.
J.V.
sab...@mindspring.com
><sab...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3a3d1402...@news.mindspring.com...
>
>> P.S. I do not write this because I am trolling for students...or
>> for any other reward for either Jan or myself, for that matter (an
>> accusation that has come up on a couple of other newsgroups this last
>> few weeks)...but rather as news of another interesting path for those
>> w/the proper aim, a reassuring bit of information that the necessary
>> (albeit very rare) work lives on in many forms and many cultures.
>
>Dear friend,
>The work is not at all rare,
=====================
Yes, Eric, it is rare.
It is both everywhere
And very few places
All at the same time.
---snip---
=============
>He who knows, and knows that *he is*: he is wise: Let him be followed. By
>his presence alone man may be transformed."
=================
There it is.
In a nutshell.
S.
sab...@mindspring.com
>
>
>> Thank you for your kind words.
>>
>> I am still amazed at the hostility that automatically runs through
>> humanity, even though I have "understood" it for almost 20 years.
>
>The Truth speaks for itself I am only the mess-anger
>Lita Alexander (Bablyon 5)
>
>Of course hostility is also a useful tool when you are in control of
>it, as a means of deflecting those neither willing nor ready to adopt
>as you would put it the correct aim.
===================
I appreciate your control, J. V.
Beware the power of anger...makes the A bomb look like child's
play.
(It'll turn arouind and bite you when you least expect it...)
=================
>>
>> Whether angry at the letter carrier for his lateness or at Jan Cox
>> for his idiom, it is the single most powerful weapon Life uses to
>> maintain sleep in human beings.
>
>Sleeping:
>
>The ordinary man:
>
>writes without knowing how the recipient will perceive his letter and
>writes often,
>The educated man.
>writes less and his careful how he write as he is uncertain that the
>recipient will understand his letter.
>The Sufi
>rarely writes, but he writes with full perception of the condition of
>the recipient when he reads it.
>
>J.V.
=================
And which of these three do you consider yourself to be, J. V. ?
S.
jaye...@my-deja.com
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> There IS nothing "original", Jayen, only original ways of stating
> things, and in that regard, I must disagree...Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, and his approach to teaching is unlike any other I
> have ever encountered.
>
> As far as his being "connected to a real source of knowledge"...if
> he is successful in teaching a certain "change" to others, then he IS
> "connected etc." The proof in is the results.
>
> And he has been successful at this task.
>
> One way of ascertaining the validity of anything like this IS by
> its originality...an "original" teacher is not necessarily teaching
> the truth of the matter, but an UNORIGINAL one certainly has only a
> glimpse of it, if he has THAT much.
>
> When you say " having read two or three of his daily posts, I can
> find nothing original in them. In my view, he is not connected to a
> real source of knowledge" the operative words in that statement are
> "in my view".
>
> I am not saying that his teaching is for everyone...in fact,
> awakening itself is only for a very, very few. (Few are called, even
> fewer are chosen...) However, in the sincere hope that you might one
> day "change", I suggest that you you would do well to examine the idea
> of "your view" in greater detail.
>
> (To say the least on the matter...)
>
> S.
Yes, that is all very well, but let me tell you, since you don't know,
unless you have been lurking here for a good few months, that I am
really a sannyasin (a disciple of Osho), and I think you should check
Osho out, you know? There are daily no-thoughts from Osho on
www.osho.com (click on Magazine - also available in audio), and even
though Osho is no longer in the body, his buddhafield (or baraka-field)
in Pune, India, is still alive and well, and an amazing place that can
transform seekers and non-seekers alike. I cannot tell you how amazing
it was to be in Osho's presence - after sitting with Him for 2 hours in
the morning you were flying the whole day!
Below there are some quotes from Osho, so that you can familiarize
yourself with what His teaching has to offer. His was the most powerful
and wide-ranging revolution in human spirituality for several hundred
years ... and the caravan is still moving on!
So, here are some quotes for you (sorry, they are all a bit Zen-slanted
... haven't got any Sufi ones to hand right now). Enjoy them!
(I've always wanted to do this, but I don't think any of the other
people here will be interested. You are the first one with an open
mind!)
Jayen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To transform breakdowns into breakthroughs is the whole function of a
master. The psychotherapist simply patches you up. That is his function.
He is not there to transform you. You need a meta-psychology, the
psychology of the buddhas.
It is the greatest adventure in life to go through a breakdown
consciously. It is the greatest risk because there is no guarantee that
the breakdown will become a breakthrough. It does become, but these
things cannot be guaranteed. Your chaos is very ancient - for many, many
lives you have been in chaos. It is thick and dense. It is almost a
universe in itself. So when you enter into it with your small capacity,
of course there is danger. But without facing this danger nobody has
ever become integrated, nobody has ever become an individual,
indivisible.
Zen, or meditation, is the method which will help you to go through the
chaos, through the dark night of the soul, balanced, disciplined, alert.
The dawn is not far away, but before you can reach the dawn, the dark
night has to be passed through. And as the dawn comes closer, the night
will become darker.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Virtue without meditation is an imposition, a forced imposition. Virtue
without meditation is repressive. Virtue without meditation is pseudo.
Virtue without meditation is just a facade: you can deceive others, but
how can you deceive yourself? With meditation there arises a totally
different kind of virtue: a natural virtue, a spontaneous virtue.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
These three things are to be taken note of: the lowest love is sex - it
is physical - and the highest refinement of love is compassion. Sex is
below love, compassion is above love; love is exactly in the middle.
Very few people know what love is. Ninety-nine percent of people,
unfortunately, think sexuality is love - it is not. Sexuality is very
animal; it certainly has the potential of growing into love, but it is
not actual love, only a potential....
If you become aware and alert, meditative, then sex can be transformed
into love. And if your meditativeness becomes total, absolute, love can
be transformed into compassion. Sex is the seed, love is the flower,
compassion is the fragrance.
Buddha has defined compassion as love plus meditation. When your love is
not just a desire for the other, when your love is not only a need, when
your love is a sharing, when your love is not that of a beggar but an
emperor, when your love is not asking for something in return but is
ready only to give - to give for the sheer joy of giving - then add
meditation to it and the pure fragrance is released. That is compassion;
compassion is the highest phenomenon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life repeats itself mindlessly - unless you become mindful, it will go
on repeating like a wheel. That's why Buddhists call it the wheel of
life and death, the wheel of time. It moves like a wheel: birth is
followed by death, death is followed by birth; love is followed by hate,
hate is followed by love; success is followed by failure, failure is
followed by success.
Just see! If you can watch just for a few days, you will see a pattern
emerging, a wheel pattern. One day, a fine morning, you are feeling so
good and so happy, and another day you are so dull, so dead that you
start thinking of committing suicide. And just the other day you were so
full of life, so blissful that you were feeling thankful to God, that
you were in a mood of deep gratefulness, and today there is great
complaint and you don't see the point why one should go on living....
And it goes on and on, but you don't see the pattern. Once you see the
pattern, you can get out of it.
france...@my-deja.com
Dear Sabutin,
I do not wish to appear rude, but the answer to this question is to
found in the first statement ( by design of course ):
"Simplification and systematisation of ideas can only be done by people
who are capable of it. These tasks are, however, almost always
attempted by people who are not capable of it. The basic qualifications
for simplification is a complete knowledge of the materials."
If you still don't understand perhaps you could ask Jan.
With respect to the other material, again not wishing to disappoint
you, it is not intended for you. Those, who need it, will understand
its context. Of course, I realise that this is a random, public medium
and therefore many allowances have been made. Still - wait and see.
>
> The second...and I find this question endemic to almost EVERY group
> of people studying a "way" of one sort or another...is this:
>
> You quote Rumi, Saadi of Shiraz, Ustad Khalilullah Khalili, and I
> suspect that there are a couple of unattributed quotes or paraphrases
> in there as well.
>
> How do you know this is what they said, and further, how do you
> know what they meant when they said it?
If you go out knowingly to play ball in the rain
don’t play the idiot and later pretend to be astonished
at the mud on your shoes.
(c) Jan Cox Dec 18 2000
>
> Translated and retranslated, even the simplest statement loses much
> of its original content. As it ravels throughother languages and
> cultures it becomes a cartoon of itself, a mediocre reproduction of a
> line drawing that was once based on a fully developed painting.
>
> For example, you say " Rumi said : 'You cannot teach by
> disagreement.' " Did you read this in its original language?
>
> In the dialect of Persian in which Rumi spoke, what are the true
> meanings of the original words which stood for the words "you",
> "cannot", "teach", "by" and "disagreement".
>
> Were you there when he said this to question him, to try to truly
> understand what he meant by this?
>
> Was the translator?
All criticism is criticism of stuff that
man’s mind has made up, (the second reality);
no one criticizes REAL reality, (dirt being dirty,
water being wet);
only idiots seriously playing idiots' games
debate the finer points of the rules --
-- there are no rules other than the ones that
men’s minds are forever making up
as the game goes along.
(c) Jan Cox Dec 18 2000
>
> On the face of it, this statement appears not to be universally
> true...Gurdjieff certainly often "taught by disagreement", for
> instance. as on other levels do many teachers of other
> things...sports, physics, refrigerator repair, plumbing...
>
> I do not mean to attack the relative truth of the statements you
> quote here..whether said by Rumi or the corner butcher, they make fair
> sense in this context...only to question your evident belief in the
> SOURCES of the statements, your reliance on the "rumour" of Rumi or
> Saadi of Shiraz.(O r Idries Shah, for that matter unless you have
> PERSONALLY studied w/him.)
Even as you mess around in the collective station of
man’s second reality,
if you listen to instinct as opposed to vocal thought,
you hear cellular reality
which is always announcing -- your train.
All aboard! -- ya’ll.
(c) Jan Cox Dec 18 2000
>
> This set of ideas alone is enough reason to seek out a living
> teacher.
>
> Jan Cox is a living teacher whose work style could be said to
> resemble those that are commonly and popularly lumped together as
> "Sufi"...could be considered rather "Zen-like" as well, or resembling
> some "Yoga" approaches also, but all this doesn't really matter.
Then go Learn, go in peace, be happy. Idries Shah said - ignore what
people say, watch what they do, of course he could be wrong.
Perhaps you are here for other reasons, if that is the case, there are
many here who may be able to help you.
>
> As you say in your post:
>
> "Q.: By what signs in oneself can one tell whether a teaching is the
> right one 'for me'?"
>
> "A.: By sensations and reactions which differ *completely* from
> customary ones. Indications which one does not experience through
> the contact with *anything* else. In contacting Sufism, you are
> coming into a relationship with a completely new experience. Its
> sensation is correspondingly different from established 'religious'
> or other experiences."
>
> Although you do not attribute this statement to anyone else (sounds
> like Idries Shah...), it is as true as anything else you quote here
> (truer, perhaps), and a perfect picture of what happens to many people
> when they come into contact w/Jan Cox.
>
> Couldn't have said it better myself (even if it WAS translated from
> some other language.)
>
> S.
>
>
Now,
turn off your hearing aids in both ears,
the ones to the world,
and the ones to your thoughts,
and just sit here with me on a stool,
and calmly look at life as being lived by the conscious creatures, man,
and -- BAM!
one day it will hit you right between the I’s –
right in the space between your brain’s talking,
and its listening to itself.
You will indeed feel like you have just awakened from a dreamy doze;
it is as though you have suddenly --
come to your full senses.
For a few, there is nothing in life like it.
And hey, everybody needs a hobby, right?!
(c) Jan Cox Oct. 22 2000
Does Jan Cox know you're here carrying out this activity?
Does Jan Cox endorse it?
Oh, one more thing - are you awake?
sab...@mindspring.com
==============
I am assuming that you mean you sat "in Osho's presence" while he
was still alive in the common sense of the term...heart still beating,
breath still flowing...
It is indeed an intense experience to meet a man such as this.
Rajneesh, Osho, Acayra...whatever his names and whatever his method of
teaching, was certainly a man of real and extraordinary power.
BUT...he is gone.
No matter WHAT his power may or may not have been, no matter how
MUCH power was expressed through him...he is gone, and that power is
in the inevitable process of dissipating.
Good luck to you. Only if you connect to that same power can you
continue to grow, and short of connectiing directly to it...the rarest
of all the rare...then you need to find a living teacher.
S.
P.S. When I read Osho, I hear Jan.
Same message exactly...just different expressions thereof.
(Note well how the ideas and physical presentation of BOTH of them
tend to totally freak out the majority of what we laughingly refer to
as "seekers". Gurdjieff too.)
sab...@mindspring.com
======================
I still do not understand, and I am asking you, not Jan Cox.
Do you consider the transmission of false teaching to be akin to
rabies? If so, your placement of the statement at the end of your post
is merely awkward.
Are you saying that Jan Cox (or myself) are not capable of the
"simplification and systematisation of ideas" because he (or we) do
not have "a complete knowledge of the materials"?
And then further, comparing him (or us) to rabid animals?
I cannot speak for Jan, but I KNOW that I do not have a complete
grasp of the "materials", if you consider those materials to be a
complete and constant state of awakening. (But I must tell you, I have
had my moments...and moments enough that I trust my own non-rabidity
regarding this thing.)
================================)
>
>With respect to the other material, again not wishing to disappoint
>you, it is not intended for you. Those, who need it, will understand
>its context. Of course, I realise that this is a random, public medium
>and therefore many allowances have been made. Still - wait and see.
>
>>
>> The second...and I find this question endemic to almost EVERY group
>> of people studying a "way" of one sort or another...is this:
>>
>> You quote Rumi, Saadi of Shiraz, Ustad Khalilullah Khalili, and I
>> suspect that there are a couple of unattributed quotes or paraphrases
>> in there as well.
>>
>> How do you know this is what they said, and further, how do you
>> know what they meant when they said it?
>
>If you go out knowingly to play ball in the rain
>don’t play the idiot and later pretend to be astonished
>at the mud on your shoes.
> (c) Jan Cox Dec 18 2000
=======================
I am not "playing the idiot" here, nor am I complaing about the mud
on my shoes. (Ain't any, actually...)
I AM asking a very simple question, and I will ask it again.
What makes you think that you know what long dead people meant (or
even what they said or if they EXISTED, when you get down to it) when
they said something and then later were translated into and through
other languages?
Hell, a group of people can't even accurately transmit the SIMPLEST
ideas through a chain of more than one or two, usually.
Ever play the game "Telephone"? Line up a number of people; whisper
a message into the ear of the first and have the message whispered
along the line...what comes out is almost ALWAYS skewed.
How much MORE like this is the game of transmission from one
generation, language and culture to another ?
(No playing the idiot here, Francesca...and no complaint, either.
Things are as they should and must be. I am only offering another
recourse...as I should [and must] do.)
=========================
>
>>
>> Translated and retranslated, even the simplest statement loses much
>> of its original content. As it ravels throughother languages and
>> cultures it becomes a cartoon of itself, a mediocre reproduction of a
>> line drawing that was once based on a fully developed painting.
>>
>> For example, you say " Rumi said : 'You cannot teach by
>> disagreement.' " Did you read this in its original language?
>>
>> In the dialect of Persian in which Rumi spoke, what are the true
>> meanings of the original words which stood for the words "you",
>> "cannot", "teach", "by" and "disagreement".
>>
>> Were you there when he said this to question him, to try to truly
>> understand what he meant by this?
>>
>> Was the translator?
>
>All criticism is criticism of stuff that
>man’s mind has made up, (the second reality);
>no one criticizes REAL reality, (dirt being dirty,
>water being wet);
>only idiots seriously playing idiots' games
>debate the finer points of the rules --
>-- there are no rules other than the ones that
>men’s minds are forever making up
>as the game goes along.
> (c) Jan Cox Dec 18 2000
======================
Indeed.
I am not "criticizing" this reality...that WOULD be idiot's work.
This is just wet water, dirty dirt.
I am merely offering a towel.
====================
>>
>> On the face of it, this statement appears not to be universally
>> true...Gurdjieff certainly often "taught by disagreement", for
>> instance. as on other levels do many teachers of other
>> things...sports, physics, refrigerator repair, plumbing...
>>
>> I do not mean to attack the relative truth of the statements you
>> quote here..whether said by Rumi or the corner butcher, they make fair
>> sense in this context...only to question your evident belief in the
>> SOURCES of the statements, your reliance on the "rumour" of Rumi or
>> Saadi of Shiraz.(O r Idries Shah, for that matter unless you have
>> PERSONALLY studied w/him.)
>
>Even as you mess around in the collective station of
>man’s second reality,
>if you listen to instinct as opposed to vocal thought,
>you hear cellular reality
>which is always announcing -- your train.
>
> All aboard! -- ya’ll.
> (c) Jan Cox Dec 18 2000
>
==================
I have called "All aboard" here myself, but for a train headed in a
different direction.
Those who continue on their own train are perfectly correct in so
doing ...their destination is always and inevitably themselves.
So be it.
=====================
>>
>> This set of ideas alone is enough reason to seek out a living
>> teacher.
>>
>> Jan Cox is a living teacher whose work style could be said to
>> resemble those that are commonly and popularly lumped together as
>> "Sufi"...could be considered rather "Zen-like" as well, or resembling
>> some "Yoga" approaches also, but all this doesn't really matter.
>
>Then go Learn, go in peace, be happy. Idries Shah said - ignore what
>people say, watch what they do, of course he could be wrong.
===================
A further question for you...what do you think I am "doing" here?
==================
=======================
Ask him.
================
>
>Oh, one more thing - are you awake?
>
====================
As I said earlier...I have had my moments...
S.
jva...@my-deja.com
In the light of previous information the question is directed at
yourself, I have no pretensions and would put myself in group 2 at best.
Perhaps you would like to place yourself in group 3 being a awakened
individual. Regardless what label you choose it is the contents not the
container which is important.
You say you are not tralling for students for Jan Cox and yet you have
carried out this same activity in many other newsgroups regardless
whether you call it tralling or not the reality is self evident.
And generally with the same results, which you attribute to the
sleeping state of others, rather like the garlic eaters new coat
refered to by another poster. However as the saying goes 'don't give a
drunk coffee or you will end up with a wide Awake Drunk'
By many of your comments you show a lack of education concerning the
tradition this is not a condemnation mearly observation.
A young boy was taking a test at school
one of the questions was:
What is rabies and what can be done about it?
the boys answer was:
Rabies are jewish priest and there is nothing you can do about it!
Be safe on your journey, may Allah guide you to truth.
Jerry layman
In your response to my post you asked:
"What is a C.V ?
Certificate of Validation?
Who is doing the validating?"
It is accepted practice for any one who deems himself to have expert
knowledge, and wants to have his opinions accepted as "expert", to collect a
resume of educational and professional qualifications, including schools
attended, degrees received, licenses in a profession, and listing of posts
held and publications in authoritative journals. All learned professions
follow this practice. It is known as a Curriculum vitae, Latin for "course
of one's life". It is commonly referred to as a C.V.
In Sufi circles, a "Teacher" has a "Chain of Transmission", which lists the
origin of the Teaching, and the various Sufi Teachers in the past that
transmitted the Teaching to the present Teacher.
The use of a C.V. or a Chain of Transmission, allows a prospective student
to make some check or validation of the experts qualifications.
There are many sources of knowledge and many fields of knowledge. This N.G.
is supposed to be concerned with information and knowledge relating to Sufi
teachings. It might be pertinent to ask whether "Jan" claims to be a Sufi
teacher, or an amalgamation resulting from wandering along other paths.
We don't have the opportunity in a N.G. to meet each other face to face. The
words on paper may not contain all that the heart or mind seeks to express.
Distortions in perception are easy to occur. With no C.V., no chain of
transmissions, and no citations or references to authority or prior
teachers, any reader is entitled to exercise great caution in examining the
ideas presented.
While questions and comments may help us to get closer to the truth, nothing
is gained by repetitive flaming responses.
"Safeguarding the breath from heedlessness" may help us to communicate.
Regards,
Jerry
<sab...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3a3d75bd...@news.mindspring.com...
> "Jerry layman" <lay...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >Dear Sabutin,
> >
> >With regular contributors to this forum from three continents, isn't it a
> >little presumptious to tout "Jan" as a "teacher whose birth culture is
MOST
> >similar to yours."
>
> ========================
>
> Yes, it is...I have read the entire collection of posts available
> on this newsgroup at the present moment, and it appears there are some
> people here from the U.K., one who resides in Moscow (?), and several
> w/Arabic names. (I don't know where they live or were born.)
>
> Nevertheless, all are communicating in English on a fairly refined
> level, and all are alive at the present time.
>
> Thus, I will rephrase my statement...
>
> Jan Cox was born in The United States and has lived there (and in
> parts of Europe) during the 2cd half of the 20th century. For those of
> us who have similar backgrounds, he is closer to (and therefore more
> attuned to) the cultural upbringing of many of us than J.G. Bennett,
> Idries Shah or G. I. Gurdjieff.
>
> By the way...why do you put parentheses around the word "Jan"
> above? Are you suggesting he is not "real", or not really who he says
> he is...or are you just trying to subtly put him down?
>
> =============================
>
> >If an author refuses to provide a C.V. demonstrating his qualifications,
>
> ======================
>
> What is a C.V ?
>
> Certificate of Validation?
>
> Who is doing the validating?
>
> ======================
>
> >then the merit of his publication must be solely ascertained from his
> >writing. When no references are provided for statements made, the the
proof
> >must be self evident.
> >
> >What I have sampled is certainly not in the same class as either of the
Shah
> >brothers, or for that matter of Ouspensky or Gurdjieff (when not writing
> >allegory).
>
> ===================
>
> "Certainly not in the same class" is the catch in this otherwise
> perfectly rational and accurate statement.
>
> In YOUR view what you have read is "not in the same class".
>
> What you have written, in MY view (since you do not proffer any
> documents demonstrating YOUR qualifications in these matters...
> documents which, by the way, I would suggest are likely to mean less
> than nothing regarding this thing, this search for awakening) suggests
> to me that you have missed the content of what you read.
>
> =================================
>
> >
> >Suggest that you and Jan contribute to this newsgroup and let your
comments
> >bear the scrutiny and criticism, sometimes constructive, of those who
lurk
> >here.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Jerry
>
> ======================
>
> That is what I am doing.
>
> I will post some of Jan's writing as well...or, simply go to his
> website at:
>
> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
>
> and see for yourself. He writes a new post every day...amazing stuff,
> from one point of view.
>
> S.
>
> ---snip---
sab...@mindspring.com
>Dear Sabutin,
>
>In your response to my post you asked:
>
>"What is a C.V ?
>
> Certificate of Validation?
>
> Who is doing the validating?"
>
>It is accepted practice for any one who deems himself to have expert
>knowledge, and wants to have his opinions accepted as "expert", to collect a
>resume of educational and professional qualifications, including schools
>attended, degrees received, licenses in a profession, and listing of posts
>held and publications in authoritative journals. All learned professions
>follow this practice. It is known as a Curriculum vitae, Latin for "course
>of one's life". It is commonly referred to as a C.V.
======================
Mmmmm...delicious.
A taste of the true ordinariness of it all...
==================
>
>In Sufi circles, a "Teacher" has a "Chain of Transmission", which lists the
>origin of the Teaching, and the various Sufi Teachers in the past that
>transmitted the Teaching to the present Teacher.
>
>The use of a C.V. or a Chain of Transmission, allows a prospective student
>to make some check or validation of the experts qualifications.
>
>There are many sources of knowledge and many fields of knowledge. This N.G.
>is supposed to be concerned with information and knowledge relating to Sufi
>teachings. It might be pertinent to ask whether "Jan" claims to be a Sufi
>teacher, or an amalgamation resulting from wandering along other paths.
=================
No, he does not.
(Nor did Gurdjieff, Bennett, or Shah, I believe...)
===========================
>
>We don't have the opportunity in a N.G. to meet each other face to face. The
>words on paper may not contain all that the heart or mind seeks to express.
>Distortions in perception are easy to occur. With no C.V., no chain of
>transmissions, and no citations or references to authority or prior
>teachers, any reader is entitled to exercise great caution in examining the
>ideas presented.
=================
May I add that WITH a C.V. the reader should also exercise the same
great caution.
( In fact, one who presents himself as belonging to a long line of
teachers should be approached with the GREATEST caution.)
==================================
>
>While questions and comments may help us to get closer to the truth, nothing
>is gained by repetitive flaming responses.
>
>"Safeguarding the breath from heedlessness" may help us to communicate.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jerry
========================
There are flames..and then there are flames, Jerry.
I have my purposes in posting to this newsgroup, and disagreement
w/others' paths is not one of them. However, if that is the direction
a thread takes, I will play.
It appeared to me that your first post on this thread was both
hostile (in a subtle and quite "civilized" manner, of course) and
misguided as far as one way of looking at the teachers of this thing
is concerned.
I acknowledged my relative lack of detailed knowledge about the
so-called "histories" of Gurdjieff, Bennett, and Idries Shah, and
further said WHY I did not know a great deal about their lives.
I'll say it again...I am not particularly INTERESTED in where they
come from OR any supposed chain of transmission. (I say supposed
because a so'called "chain of transmission" is ultimately both
unproveable and worthless. They can either teach or they can't.)
Let me ask you a question. If there were a real Nasrudin today and
you met him...say a garbageman or mechanic or candy store owner in
your neighborhood...do you think he would offer a chain of
transmission? (Unless of course he was bicycle mechanic...)
Keep your eyes open...Khidr could be ANYBODY. (Even someone WITH a
C.V.)
S.
---snip---
sab...@mindspring.com
=================
I choose none of the above.
In fact, I not only RARELY write...w/the exception of the last
couple of weeks, I have almost NEVER written about this thing for
wqell over 20 years.
Why ???
Not my job.
As far as your three categories...
In #1and #3, NO ONE can know in a newsgroup situation WHO will read
the post, so no one CAN have even the faintest notion of how the
recipients will perceive his letter.
As far as #2 is concerned...that is exactly what I am doing.
=============
>
>You say you are not tralling for students for Jan Cox and yet you have
>carried out this same activity in many other newsgroups regardless
>whether you call it tralling or not the reality is self evident.
>And generally with the same results, which you attribute to the
>sleeping state of others, rather like the garlic eaters new coat
>refered to by another poster. However as the saying goes 'don't give a
>drunk coffee or you will end up with a wide Awake Drunk'
>By many of your comments you show a lack of education concerning the
>tradition this is not a condemnation mearly observation.
======================
Indeed, the "tradition" means very little to me, excepot insofar as
it functions to help the students OF that tradition awaken.
Trolling, trailing...call it what you will. I am performing a task
for what I consider to be a good reason. When my task is finished,
regardless of the so-called "results" (which, I might add, have NOT
been the same on each newsgroup), I stop.
W/in a short period of time, I will not post here either. A week, a
day, a month...
(And then again, I might return...)
=======================
>
>A young boy was taking a test at school
>one of the questions was:
>What is rabies and what can be done about it?
>the boys answer was:
>Rabies are jewish priest and there is nothing you can do about it!
>
>
>Be safe on your journey, may Allah guide you to truth.
>
>J.V.
===================
Ah HA !!!
An answer to the rabies question !!!
Must've missed that part of the discussion somehow.
Thank you.
S.
france...@my-deja.com
Dear Sabutin,
I believe Jonathan has now done you the kind service of providing the
answer re: "Rabies", which is based on his very good understanding of
the fundamental material, and comes from the primer "Learning How To
Learn" by Idries Shah.
Thank you JVarty!
Sabutin, Question your assumtions, then question your assumtions'
assumptions.
> ===================
>
> A further question for you...what do you think I am "doing" here?
>
> ==================
I do not 'think', I 'know'.
> =======================
>
> Ask him.
>
> ================
> >
> >Oh, one more thing - are you awake?
> >
> ====================
>
> As I said earlier...I have had my moments...
>
> S.
>
>
Men always call it something else;
"Wanting to rectify the injustices of life";
"Wishing to warn others,"
(and the mother of them all),
"The desire to awaken others from their sleep,
and make them see the truth,"
but all they really want is to give vent to their frustration while
pointing out that other people's stupidity is its cause.
(c) Jan Cox Dec 1 2000
sab...@mindspring.com
>
>
>Dear Sabutin,
>I believe Jonathan has now done you the kind service of providing the
>answer re: "Rabies", which is based on his very good understanding of
>the fundamental material, and comes from the primer "Learning How To
>Learn" by Idries Shah.
>
>Thank you JVarty!
>
>Sabutin, Question your assumtions, then question your assumtions'
>assumptions.
>
>> ===================
This is NOT "the fundamental material" of this thing, simply one
version of it.
This newsgroup is not called "alt.idries.shah", nor is it confined
to discussions of people (or the ideas of people) who CALL themselves
"Sufis".
In fact, one of the basic tenets of the so-called "Sufi" tradition
is to never trust people who use the term.
==================
>>
>> A further question for you...what do you think I am "doing" here?
>>
>> ==================
>
>I do not 'think', I 'know'.
==================
Alright, I'll rephrase the question. Please answer it this time.
What do you "know" I am doing here?
========================
>
>> =======================
>>
>> Ask him.
>>
>> ================
>> >
>> >Oh, one more thing - are you awake?
>> >
>> ====================
>>
>> As I said earlier...I have had my moments...
>>
>> S.
>>
>>
>
>Men always call it something else;
>"Wanting to rectify the injustices of life";
>"Wishing to warn others,"
>(and the mother of them all),
>"The desire to awaken others from their sleep,
>and make them see the truth,"
>but all they really want is to give vent to their frustration while
>pointing out that other people's stupidity is its cause.
> (c) Jan Cox Dec 1 2000
>
>
=======================
Just trying to point in a good direction, Francesca.
( I see you've been reading some of Jan's material. Glad to see it.)
S.
michel
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> "Jay Vogelsong" <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote:
> >
> >Different people learn Sufism in different ways.
>
> =======================
>
> And SIMILAR people learn "Sufism" in similar ways.
>
That's a pretty linear deduction. Are things always that simple in your
world? In my city there are one way streets.
Michel
Al
>
> An answer to the rabies question !!!
>
> Must've missed that part of the discussion somehow.
>
> Thank you.
>
> S.
I already gave the answer at 08:53 same day. You had the answer but didn't
know it.
michel
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> "Jay Vogelsong" <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote:
> >
> >Different people learn Sufism in different ways.
>
> =======================
>
> And SIMILAR people learn "Sufism" in similar ways.
>
That's a pretty linear deduction. Are things always that simple in your
sab...@mindspring.com
====================
Yes you did, but I had no context in which to put it.
S.
sab...@mindspring.com
=============
Are you objecting to the method (as far as you can see it,
anyway...you have no idea what the processes were that led me to that
answer) , the answer itself, or both?
S.
es...@my-deja.com
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >
> =======================
>
> You certainly know a number of Nasrudin stories !!!
>
> =============================
> ====================
>
> And Sufi teaching stories too !!!
>
> ====================
>
> =====================
>
> But your commentaries are weak.
>
> ===================
Oops sorry, my fault...
(I forgot. You're used to 'Industrial strength':)pun intended
Let's just say, the dosage admininistered was what was needed.
(it got your attention)
> >
> ====================
>
> In fact, when you get right down to it, ALL commentaries are
> weak... especially commentaries about multilayered teaching stories
> such as the ones you have quoted here.
>
> As soon as you "explain" them, they are dead. (ESPECIALLY if you
> explain them to yourself.)
Stories such as this mean only what they mean for that specific
situation. To hang on to them as the 'final say' is 'the death of it.'
Besides who's doing the interpreting? An attempt to make some
kind of sense out of them can be beneficial.
>
> "Yourself" is both your own best audience and your own worst enemy.
>
> You know how I see this response of yours?
>
> You are in a comfortable sleeping position w/your Nasrudin stories,
> your Sufi books, and anything new challenges that comfort.
Actually, I do read them before I go to sleep. (Also after I wake up.)
>
> You say "little fish", "big fish", essentially casting this
> approach as the little fish that tries to get the big fish to tell it
> about what the oh-so-self-evident water the little fish has just
> discovered.
Not at all, that is YOUR self fulfilling prophecy. It's actually
the opposite. My attempt was to identify what you mean by AMERICAN
way. I mean, I'm American and I'm not even sure just exactly what
an AMERICAN is. If you're going to be specific there is even an
ARIZONAN, or even a Phoenician.
"I had to do it... MY WAY" Frank Sinatra
What you have Jan presenting us is a corporatized convenience store,
commercialized product. (BTW Is the logo trademarked?)
>
> Is it not possible that this new fish is simply attempting to tell
> people about the water in a new way?
>
> S.
>
> =====================
>
New does not necessarily mean BIGGER and BETTER!
> >
> >How often do we 'double cross' ourselves? (just to make sure!).
> >
E
P.S. Come on 'fess up Sabutin. Are YOU Jan Cox? (writing as Sabutin)
There's a strong undercurrent of self promotion here.
Jay Vogelsong
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Further, if you are not at least occasionally physically in the
> presence of a teacher, you are NOT learning the thing that is at the
> root of "Sufism", which is an awakening or change of some sort (no
> final words possible for that which is really the END of words).
>
> The ideas you seek to fill the gaps in your worldview, as you put
> it, are simply dreams to be slotted into your sleeping dreamscape.
> Only a living teacher can provide the proper information at the proper
> time for one to even BEGIN to awaken, and even the greatest of them
> are hard pressed to do so w/most "seekers".
This is "Sufism" as self-fulfilling prophecy or one-upmanship IMO.
Jay Vogelsong
francesca wrote:
> A few reminders....
Thanks for the reminders.
jva...@my-deja.com
Dear Subutin or whoever you are!
Context as you have seen is very important as you have freely admitted
you know very little about the Tradition and are not interested
therefore you have no context to place your remarks and are a fish out
of water gasping for air.
Lets just walk quitely through a few of your thoughts.
The requirement for the contact with a living teacher:
Granted this is very usefull but if the student has not done the
required work before contact there will be no benefit, within the
authentic tradition this would result in the student being told to
return when they had fullfilled this requirement. This is common in all
education systems.
You assume the teacher is paramount:
within this context (i.e. Sufi Studies) 'It is the Tradtion that
teaches not the personality of a teacher' Sayed Omar Ali Shah
If you learn only from a teacher his/her limits are your limits, if you
learn from the Tradition there are no limits.
No more can be said on the above matter until the correct context has
been acquired.
Awake & Asleep
He who is asleep and knows he is, is in a more enlightened state than
someone who believe themself awake whilst still asleep.
Over the past few days you have responded to every bait put before you,
with only one thought behind your answers, the correctness of your own
view point, this reflex defense action whilst usefull in cetain places
is a impediment in others.
Allthough superficially these actions may seem like certitude they are
in reality the Commanding Selfs attempts to justify its actions in the
presence truth.
The Truth needs no Justification
As we say in Scotland, See you when your better dressed.
The Sleeper must Awaken (Frank Herbert)
Eric Twose
teaching French to a bunch of no-hopers.
He said: No matter how much effort and energy you put into content and
process, this will be all to no avail without a clear understanding and
ability to work in context.
Eric
azo charif
> else in the world, and his approach to teaching is unlike any other I
> have ever encountered.
> he is successful in teaching a certain "change" to others, then he IS
> "connected etc." The proof in is the results.
show an electrical torch to a bushman(who's never seen any technological
device in his life) and he would adopt you as a god................and if
you show him a videocamera he may just faint ........ getting emotionnaly
influenced, impressed or excited by an unusual experience(be it the
presence of some individual of just a strange feeling or event) is a sign of
weakness and ignorance not of knowledge and real change.....
bless you
azo
ps:i know you're been feeling lonely talking to yourself(and to your
fictional disciples) in alt consciousness.cox so
we are kind enough here to pander to that frustrated need of yours....
<sab...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world, Jan Cox is like no one
> else in the world,
azo charif
Come on 'fess up Sabutin. Are YOU Jan Cox? (writing as Sabutin)
> There's a strong undercurrent of self promotion here.
>
yeaaaaa and by the way why you have chosen 'cox' as your 'nom de gourou ',
or rather 'nom de gorille'?...
do you have an unconscious problem with the size of your 'coc' so that
you've chosen its plural form homonym to compensate for that.....? btw too
many small ones do not necessarily make up for one big one!
please dont be offended...as you already know,this is the least grumpy i
coud be .....
bless you....
azo
ps:we are well inoculated against this kind of preachings in this group we
had bahais,seecks, neogurdjieffiens,evangelists,salafis etc...before and
they all left empty-handed and very disappointed....
sab...@mindspring.com
============
No, Jay, it is "Sufism" as it really works...you can read every
book on the planet and not "change" one iota, I promise you.
There is no guarantee that this change will occur if you are in
contact w/a real teacher...hell, here are no guarantees that you can
even FIND a real teacher or even recognize one if you DO find
one...but of this I am sure...
No personal contact, no change.
That's the way it is, sorry...
S.
sab...@mindspring.com
>>Jan Cox is like no one
>> else in the world, and his approach to teaching is unlike any other I
>> have ever encountered.
>>"...if
>> he is successful in teaching a certain "change" to others, then he IS
>> "connected etc." The proof in is the results.
>
>show an electrical torch to a bushman(who's never seen any technological
>device in his life) and he would adopt you as a god................and if
>you show him a videocamera he may just faint ........ getting emotionnaly
>influenced, impressed or excited by an unusual experience(be it the
>presence of some individual of just a strange feeling or event) is a sign of
>weakness and ignorance not of knowledge and real change.....
>bless you
>azo
>ps:i know you're been feeling lonely talking to yourself(and to your
>fictional disciples) in alt consciousness.cox so
>we are kind enough here to pander to that frustrated need of yours....
======================
Azo...
Thank you.
I have been overwhelmed by your kindness and good wishes...both of
which are immutable characteristics of the enlightened.
Your lack of hostility and your openness are truly astounding.
Best of luck...
S.
===============================
sab...@mindspring.com
>In article <3a3e8e6b...@news.mindspring.com>,
> sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
>> "Al" <al_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Ah HA !!!
>> >>
>> >> An answer to the rabies question !!!
>> >>
>> >> Must've missed that part of the discussion somehow.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you.
>> >>
>> >> S.
>> >
>> >I already gave the answer at 08:53 same day. You had the answer but
>didn't
>> >know it.
>> ====================
>>
>> Yes you did, but I had no context in which to put it.
>>
>> S.
>>
>
>Dear Subutin or whoever you are!
===================
Sabutin, actually...Sah-bu-TEEN w/a slight Spanish accent.
========================
>
>Context as you have seen is very important as you have freely admitted
>you know very little about the Tradition and are not interested
>therefore you have no context to place your remarks and are a fish out
>of water gasping for air.
==================
Actually I read widely on the subject years ago, before I realized
that reading brought me nothing but "facts". I have forgotten many of
those "facts", because for my purposes they are not only useless, but
WORSE than useless...clutter that obscures the real goal of awakening.
========================
>
>Lets just walk quitely through a few of your thoughts.
>
>The requirement for the contact with a living teacher:
>Granted this is very usefull but if the student has not done the
>required work before contact there will be no benefit, within the
>authentic tradition this would result in the student being told to
>return when they had fullfilled this requirement. This is common in all
>education systems.
==================
Indeed, if the student is not "prepared" for the task at hand no
amount of teaching will help. (I am not sure the "required work" in
this instance is an intimate familiarity w/the life histories of great
teachers, but I will let this go for the moment.)
My point is not what a given teacher will or won't do or say to one
who wishes to study this thing...it is that A TEACHER IS ABSOLUTELY
NECESSARY TO LEARN IT.
I find the almost universal resistance to this remark...not just
on this newgroup, not just on the internet...to be absolutely
astounding, evidence of the depth and breadth of sleep in human beings
that is one of the great lessons to be learned in this study.
People twist and turn; they throw up this argument and that, turn
hostile and defensive (as if they were being attacked), all at the
sight of this simple and quite true statement: A TEACHER IS
ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO AWAKEN.
=====================
>You assume the teacher is paramount:
==========================
Not "paramount"...merely NECESSARY.
============
>
>within this context (i.e. Sufi Studies) 'It is the Tradtion that
>teaches not the personality of a teacher' Sayed Omar Ali Shah
=========================
I didn't SAY "the personality of a teacher", I said "a teacher".
(May I point out that Sayed Omar Ali Shah IS a teacher???)
========================
>
>If you learn only from a teacher his/her limits are your limits, if you
>learn from the Tradition there are no limits.
====================
I'm sorry, jvarty...your resistance is too deep.
Have a wonderful time studying the Tradition.
S.
---snip---
sab...@mindspring.com
><es...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:91ordn$p90$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> P.S.
>Come on 'fess up Sabutin. Are YOU Jan Cox? (writing as Sabutin)
=================
Naaaaahhhh...
(Check out the syntax, the rhythm. It's like handwriting. His and
mine are VERY different.)
S.
=========================
>> There's a strong undercurrent of self promotion here.
>> sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>
> yeaaaaa and by the way why you have chosen 'cox' as your 'nom de gourou ',
>or rather 'nom de gorille'?...
>do you have an unconscious problem with the size of your 'coc' so that
>you've chosen its plural form homonym to compensate for that.....? btw too
>many small ones do not necessarily make up for one big one!
>please dont be offended...as you already know,this is the least grumpy i
>coud be .....
>bless you....
>azo
=================
Actually, I believe Jan Cox "chose" that name because it is the one
his parents gave him.
Nice try, though...a little weak, but hey, you're definitely in
there flailing away.
==================
>ps:we are well inoculated against this kind of preachings in this group
================
I must say...the inoculation has done wonders for you, too.
=====================
we
>had bahais,seecks, neogurdjieffiens,evangelists,salafis etc...before and
>they all left empty-handed and very disappointed....
>
==================
Ahhh...but I am leaving w/my hands quite full, and not disappointed
in the least.
Goodbye...
S.
>
>
michel
>
> >In article <3a3d1402...@news.mindspring.com>,
> > sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If you wish to examine a teacher whose birth culture is MOST
> >> similar to yours, I suggest you go to:
> >>
> >> <http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
> >>
> >> and read Jan Cox's daily posts for a while.
> >
> >
> >Thanks for bringing Jan Cox to my attention, Sabutin. However, having
> >read two or three of his daily posts, I can find nothing original in
> >
> >Best wishes
> >
> >Jayen
> =======================
>
> There IS nothing "original", Jayen, only original ways of stating
> else in the world, and his approach to teaching is unlike any other I
> have ever encountered.
>
> he is successful in teaching a certain "change" to others, then he IS
> "connected etc." The proof in is the results.
>
>
Should we consider you a living proof that Jan Cox's teaching 'works'?
Michel
michel
sab...@mindspring.com
>What will you be, what will you do when Jan Cox dies?
>
>Michel
=========
I did not say one must CONTINUE seeing the teacher forever.
S.
sab...@mindspring.com
====================
A loaded question...deserves a loaded answer.
No.
Go to his website as a first step.
<http://www.jancox.com/JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm>
Make uo your own mind.
You have no idea "who" I am...how could you possibly consider "me"
as ANYTHING other than someone who has written a few things on a
newsgroup?
Maybe "I" am not "this" at ALL, just an actor playing a role.
Consciously.
S.
jva...@my-deja.com
JV Wrote: Enough already!
Perhaps reading brought you nothing, but this is not a reflection on
the materials but on your state of unreadiness to benefit from the
information. Please read the post on 'The Use of texts'
> >
> >Lets just walk quitely through a few of your thoughts. (AGAIN)
> >
> >The requirement for the contact with a living teacher:
> >Granted this is very usefull but if the student has not done the
> >required work before contact there will be no benefit, within the
> >authentic tradition this would result in the student being told to
> >return when they had fullfilled this requirement. This is common in
all
> >education systems.
>
> ==================
>
> Indeed, if the student is not "prepared" for the task at hand no
> amount of teaching will help. (I am not sure the "required work" in
> this instance is an intimate familiarity w/the life histories of great
> teachers, but I will let this go for the moment.)
JVarty Wrote:
As already mentioned CONTEXT is IMPORTANT the above statement show you
clearly have none.
>
> My point is not what a given teacher will or won't do or say to one
> who wishes to study this thing...it is that A TEACHER IS ABSOLUTELY
> NECESSARY TO LEARN IT.
>
> I find the almost universal resistance to this remark...not just
> on this newgroup, not just on the internet...to be absolutely
> astounding, evidence of the depth and breadth of sleep in human beings
> that is one of the great lessons to be learned in this study.
JVarty Wrote:
Like attracts like & People see what they want to see,
If you are awake and able to See you would see that it is not that
people have resistance to this statement but that your presentation is
causing the resistance. Within the Tradition Sufi, Zen, Kabbalist,
Hermetic, Toaist this is a universal truth which of course you would
know had you not discarded the 'facts'.
>
> People twist and turn; they throw up this argument and that, turn
> hostile and defensive (as if they were being attacked), all at the
> sight of this simple and quite true statement: A TEACHER IS
> ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO AWAKEN.
>
> =====================
The Garlic Eater and the New Coat:
A man who ate large quanities of garlic bought a new and fine coat and
thought to himeself, 'this is such a splendid coat it is only right
that the village should share in my joy' so he invited the villagers to
come down to the town square to see the new coat, He waited there for
hours but no-one came to see his coat, he thought 'these commoners
obviously lack the refinement to apreciate this fine garment'
>
> >You assume the teacher is paramount:
>
> ==========================
>
> Not "paramount"...merely NECESSARY.
>
> ============
> >
> >within this context (i.e. Sufi Studies) 'It is the Tradtion that
> >teaches not the personality of a teacher' Sayed Omar Ali Shah
>
> =========================
>
> I didn't SAY "the personality of a teacher", I said "a teacher".
>
> (May I point out that Sayed Omar Ali Shah IS a teacher???)
JVarty Wrote: Personality of a Teacher, Sorry Subutin! Technical phrase
which you lack the context to understand
>
> ========================
> >
> >If you learn only from a teacher his/her limits are your limits, if
you
> >learn from the Tradition there are no limits.
>
> ====================
>
> I'm sorry, jvarty...your resistance is too deep.
JVarty Wrote: No Tigers here! This stuff really works?
>
> Have a wonderful time studying the Tradition.
JVarty Wrote: I will and through Contact with Living Teachers too Gosh!!
P.S. I hope your still laughing, and I am glad to here that your hands
are full, just remember if you break those Eggs you *will* be held
responsible.
>
That you for the entertainment, Could you not See I was winding you up!!
Merry Christmas And a Happy New year
> S.
> Say Hi to JS for me, sorry I could not make the party but was already
booked.
Your Friend Jonathan
> ---snip---
michel
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> You have no idea "who" I am...how could you possibly consider "me"
> as ANYTHING other than someone who has written a few things on a
> newsgroup?
>
Of course I have no idea who you are - and I try to assume as little
as possible and when I must I try to keep in mind that my
assumptions are working hypothesis. I have to go by what you write and
by what I think what you write is actually accomplishing.
Some of the 'few things' you wrote on this newsgroup were themselves
'loaded' with a tone of certainty and conviction. You seem to imply that
most of the participants would gain by frequenting Jan Cox's ideas.
I'm curious about the source of this perceived 'assurance' of yours.
michel
Then what did you mean when you said: "Only if you connect to that same
power can you continue to grow, and short of connectiing directly to
it...the rarest of all the rare...then you need to find a living
teacher."
How does that pertain to the current relationship bewteen you and Jan
Cox? Will you have to move on to another teacher? What will happen to
you in the period between the two?
Eric Twose
Here's to Mushkil Gusha, the Remover of All Difficulties
Eric
Jay Vogelsong
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> No, Jay, it is "Sufism" as it really works...you can read every
> book on the planet and not "change" one iota, I promise you.
First of all, I don't want to change. Second, if what you are talking
about is representative of Sufism, I am not interested. You sound like
Humpty Dumpty to me....
michel
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Ahhh...but I am leaving w/my hands quite full, and not disappointed
> in the least.
>
> Goodbye...
>
> S.
> >
> >
>
>
Again?
Michel
jaye...@my-deja.com
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> jaye...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> I am not saying that his teaching is for everyone...in fact,
> >> awakening itself is only for a very, very few. (Few are called,
even
> >> fewer are chosen...) However, in the sincere hope that you might
one
> >> day "change", I suggest that you you would do well to examine the
idea
> >> of "your view" in greater detail.
> >>
> >> (To say the least on the matter...)
> >>
> >> S.
> >
> >
> >Yes, that is all very well, but let me tell you, since you don't
know,
> >unless you have been lurking here for a good few months, that I am
> >really a sannyasin (a disciple of Osho), and I think you should check
> >Osho out, you know? There are daily no-thoughts from Osho on
> >www.osho.com (click on Magazine - also available in audio), and even
> >though Osho is no longer in the body, his buddhafield (or
baraka-field)
> >in Pune, India, is still alive and well, and an amazing place that
can
> >transform seekers and non-seekers alike. I cannot tell you how
amazing
> >it was to be in Osho's presence - after sitting with Him for 2 hours
in
> >the morning you were flying the whole day!
>
> ==============
>
> I am assuming that you mean you sat "in Osho's presence" while he
> was still alive in the common sense of the term...heart still beating,
> breath still flowing...
>
> It is indeed an intense experience to meet a man such as this.
> Rajneesh, Osho, Acayra...whatever his names and whatever his method of
> teaching, was certainly a man of real and extraordinary power.
>
> BUT...he is gone.
>
> No matter WHAT his power may or may not have been, no matter how
> MUCH power was expressed through him...he is gone, and that power is
> in the inevitable process of dissipating.
>
> Good luck to you. Only if you connect to that same power can you
> continue to grow, and short of connectiing directly to it...the rarest
> of all the rare...then you need to find a living teacher.
>
>
> P.S. When I read Osho, I hear Jan.
>
> Same message exactly...just different expressions thereof.
>
> (Note well how the ideas and physical presentation of BOTH of them
> tend to totally freak out the majority of what we laughingly refer to
> as "seekers". Gurdjieff too.)
Sabutin still here? No? Aah ...
It appears he failed to notice the irony in my post (which was otherwise
factually quite correct, from a subjective/historical viewpoint).
I apologise for having described members of this NG as less than
open-minded in the process.
Jayen