Internet Sufis and the dried onion effect
JP George
I have before me a packet of dehydrated onions.
Let these dried onions stand for something that has been written down. They
are neither the original experience (the onion) nor are they nothing at all.
They possess a virtuality.
Add hot water, and this is absorbed by your dried material. After a few
minutes, we have something which we know to have been dried onions, but
which is not now the same. What we now have is 'reconstituted onion'.
We do not have whole onions, it is true. Neither do we have fresh onions.
But we have something which will enable us to recognize fresh onions when we
taste them. This is an advance upon dried onions.
The original experience was fresh onions. The water was the addition made by
the right circumstances of study. The result is edible, and this is a
suitable substitute for fresh onions. It contains some nutrition too.
Those who say 'You cannot make anything out of dried onions' -- the
equivalent of "You cannot learn anything from a book' -- are wrong. *They
are wrong because they do not realize that they would not recognize 'fresh
onions' if they saw them.* This has to be said, though reluctantly, because
such statements are usually taken as challenging, when they are more often
intended only to be descriptive.
Let us therefore postulate the statement: 'You can get something from a
book. That something may be so important as to lead you to the recognition
of the real thing. It is therefore in many cases all-important.'
Ingredients
But *why* should people imagine that there is nothing in a book of the same
order as 'fresh' experience? Simply because they do not know the specific
circumstances (such as water added to the onion shreds) are needed before
they can get anything. It is the Sufi purpose to help towards the provision
of the water as well as the dried onion, so that in due time fresh onions
may be presented.
-Idries Shah
"Learning How To Learn"
pages 67-68
Now, what if we read this and then substituted 'a book' with 'the internet',
and/or 'dried onions', 'reconstituted onions', and 'fresh onions' with 'the
word Sufi', 'Sufism,' and 'living Sufi' respectively. Anyone got hot water?
-JP
francesca_trb
JP,
Don't mean to be too pedantic here, but by 'hot water' do you mean the
water as in :
'The *water* was the addition made by the right circumstances of
study.'
'It is the Sufi purpose to help towards the provision of the *water*
as well as the dried onion, so that in due time fresh onions may be
presented.'
Peace,
Obo Vajrin
>>
Now you touch upon a thought I have wondered about: what are the components of
a corectly funtioning group and how do our various places where we gather on
the internet fullfil or alter some of those requirements?
One observation as to onionhood. Whole fresh onions are usually incountered
layer by layer. The dried or reconstituted onion is more of a particle nature,
bit's of the onion scattered.
Share some care, obo
JP George
"francesca_trb" <france...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3e947062...@news.tiscali.co.uk...
>
> Don't mean to be too pedantic here, but by 'hot water' do you mean the
> water as in :
>
> 'The *water* was the addition made by the right circumstances of
> study.'
Yep, as in 'Add hot water, and this is absorbed by your dried material.'
> 'It is the Sufi purpose to help towards the provision of the *water*
> as well as the dried onion, so that in due time fresh onions may be
> presented.'
The key turn of phrase here is 'help towards the provision of'. Note this
means that the Sufi doesn't neccessarily just give the seeker the water, but
that he or she may instead guide the seeker towards getting the water on his
or her own.
Once this is accomplished it's then a matter of knowing how to properly mix
the ingredients together. Water is water, but when dealing with dehydrated
materials, how it's prepared (including factors like temperature) also come
into play. That's why there's often instructions on the side of packages of
things as simple as dried onions:)
-JP
francesca_trb
Dear Obo,
I am amazed that even though people cannot agree on the
nature/description/function of a Sufi, they would move so quickly onto
the nature/description/function of a Sufi group and the requirements
of time, place and people.
Anyway, check out: 'Group Politics' in 'Knowing How To Know', for a
start. Incidentally, Idries Shah does not agree with your description
of onionhood, well that's not quite true, he does and he doesn't:
'..you are given the materials because they operate in 'layers'. If
you are looking for advanced layers before you familiarise yourself
with the materials, you need a course in basic thinking: and we cannot
give you this.' -Idries Shah.
Regarding other components of a correctly functioning group, there are
many things to consider, for example of the top of my head we have. :
'Sufi Introduction' - ibid.
'Systematic Study' - ibid.
'Teachers and Pupils' - ibid.
'What is the Sufi Enterprise' - ibid.
'Understanding Sufi Study' - ibid.
'The Elements of the Situation' - ibid.
'Tattoos and Soup not Spiritual?' - ibid.
'Diseases of Learning' - ibid.
'In a Sufi School' - ibid.
'The Three Chests and the Balance' - ibid.
'Real and Imitation Sufi Groups' - ibid.
'A Real Community' - ibid.
'Boredom, Study and Entertainment' - ibid.
'Consideration 3' - ibid.
'Consideration 4' - ibid.
'Consideration 5' - ibid.
'Consideration 6' - ibid.
'Consideration 7' - ibid.
'Consideration 12' - ibid.
'Consideration 13' - ibid.
'Consideration 14' - ibid.
'Consideration 17' - ibid.
'Consideration 19' - ibid.
'Consideration 20' - ibid.
'Consideration 21' - ibid.
'Consideration 22' - ibid.
'Consideration 23' - ibid.
'Consideration 24' - ibid.
'Consideration 25' - ibid.
'Consideration 27' - ibid.
'Consideration 28' - ibid.
'Consideration 30' - ibid.
'Consideration 31' - ibid.
'Consideration 32' - ibid.
'Consideration 33' - ibid.
'Background, Techniques and Theory of Esoteric Systems' - ibid.
'Caution' - ibid.
'Direct Transmission' - ibid.
'Elements being used in our courses' - ibid.
'Exercising Power' - ibid.
'Effort, Stretching and Straining' - ibid.
'Emotion' - ibid.
'Greed is always Greed' - ibid.
'How to Study' - ibid.
'Higher Ranges of Study' - ibid.
'Summary of Orientation Points' - ibid.
'Service and Self-Satisfaction' - ibid.
'Time, Place and Materials' - ibid.
'Three Disabling Consequences of Generalisation' - ibid.
'The Use of Initiatory Texts' - ibid.
'The Nature of Sufi Study' - ibid.
'The Nature of the Study Circle' - ibid.
'The Sociological Problem' - ibid.
'The Influence of a Teaching' - ibid.
'The Hidden Current in Man' - ibid.
'What Cannot be Answered' - ibid.
'Why not tell Me?' - ibid.
'Working Within Limitations' - ibid.
'Ways to Understand the Teaching' - ibid.
'Studies and Exercises as Variables' - ibid.
'Infantile Desires' - ibid.
'I Can Teach You' - ibid.
'Information and Expectation' - ibid.
'Metaphor of the Kaleidoscope' - ibid.
'Man Hates what is Good for Him, Loves what is Bad' - ibid.
'No Accident in these Studies' - ibid.
'Needs, not Fantasy' - ibid.
'Organisation, Study, Belief' - ibid.
'Pupil and Teacher Interchange' - ibid.
'Possible Functions of Studies' - ibid.
'Prescription versus Mixing' - ibid.
'Purpose of Regular Meetings' - ibid.
'Random and Real Seeking' - ibid.
'Relationship with a School' - ibid.
'Running Before You Can Walk' - ibid.
'Real, Empirical and Imitative Study' - ibid.
'Heedlessness' - The Commanding Self.
'Togetherness' -ibid.
'Work' - ibid.
'The Work Situation I & II' - ibid.
'Prisons Of Thought' - ibid.
'Believing' - ibid
'What They Respond To' - ibid.
'When is Learning Not Indroctrination?' - ibid.
'Connection Between the Traditions' - ibid.
'Sufis and Cultists' - ibid.
'Which is Which?' - ibid.
'Religious or Sufi Presentation' - ibid.
'Frozen Attention' - ibid.
'Simplifying Sufi Teaching' - ibid.
'The Donkey Which Brought You Here' - ibid.
'Staring to Learn' - ibid.
'Deeper Things Affect Surface Ones' - ibid.
'Uncertainty, Dissatisfaction, Confusion' - ibid.
'Meditation and Other Topics' - ibid.
'Right and Wrong Study' - ibid.
'Ways of Teaching' - ibid.
'Hypocrite' - ibid.
'Maximum Effort' - ibid.
'Sincerity and Truth' - ibid.
'Meaning Of Words and Experience' - ibid.
'Dangers of Automatic Reasoning' - ibid.
'Studying Here and Now' - ibid.
'Special Meaning in Service' -ibid.
'Quality, Quantity and Time' - ibid
'Bombardment' - ibid.
'When to have Meetings' - Learning How To Learn.
'Use, Misuse and Disuse of forms of Study' - ibid.
'Twentry Three Study Points' - ibid.
Chapter 7, Overall Study - ibid.
Chapter 8, Sufi Studies - ibid.
'Attitudes of Disciples' - ibid.
'Books and Beyond Books' - ibid.
'You Can't Teach By Correspondance' - ibid.
'How Serious is the Student?' - ibid.
'Social and Psychological Elements in Sufi Study' - ibid.
'Sufi Study Themes' - ibid.
'Thinking in Terms of Supply and Demand' - ibid.
'Continuous versus Effective Activity' -ibid.
'Psychic Idiots' - ibid.
'The Teaching is a Matter of Conduct' - ibid.
'Real and Ostensible Self-Improvement' - ibid.
'Roles of Teacher and Student' - ibid.
'Systems' - ibid.
'The Vehicle and the Objective' - ibid.
Peace,
Obo Vajrin
Regarding other components of a correctly functioning group, there are
>>
Friend trb, thanks for the reading list, I will look into your suggestios as my
time permits.
Share some care, obo
Luis Mazuera
for example of the top of my head we have. :
Of the top of your head... Of the top of your head..
Jesus Fran.. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!!!
How the heck did you rattle all that off the top of your head!!?
Failing memory is one of my biggest failures. I'd auction my left
*ahem* to develop such powers of recollection as well as you have..
damn that's amazing... ok, so the mind gets easily amazed. But I'd
rather work on the memory power bit.
Eric Twose
"JP George" <jpge...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b71ovb$eqk$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
> 'You Can't Teach by Correspondance'
>
> I have before me a packet of dehydrated onions.
>
> Let these dried onions stand for something that has been written down.
They
> are neither the original experience (the onion) nor are they nothing at
all.
> They possess a virtuality.
>
> Add hot water, and this is absorbed by your dried material. After a few
> minutes, we have something which we know to have been dried onions, but
> which is not now the same. What we now have is 'reconstituted onion'.
>
> We do not have whole onions, it is true. Neither do we have fresh onions.
> But we have something which will enable us to recognize fresh onions when
we
> taste them. This is an advance upon dried onions.
-Idries Shah
"Learning How To Learn"
pages 67-68-Idries Shah
> -JP
Two or three observations, JP.
One is that some of the aspects of the teaching may be directed at some
students who are to go on to specialize in the construction and maintenance
of wells; whilst many others perform other tasks like transporting the
water, storing it, cooking with it, or even simply drinking it.
A second is stating the obvious: the water itself cannot be dried, if it is
to remain useful as water. So some other quite different mechanism/s must be
used to deliver it and store it and use it.
A third is that our storage/cooking vessel must first of all be empty-ish
and its walls must be no more than semi-porous and intact... ....
Ah, but here I am merely toying with words, when I could be combining the
ingredients through the interaction of the materials and life experience;
when I could be eating the food ....
Cheers,
Eric.
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002
Eric Twose
news:b71ovb$eqk$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
<snip>
> But *why* should people imagine that there is nothing in a book of the
same
> order as 'fresh' experience? Simply because they do not know the specific
> circumstances (such as water added to the onion shreds) are needed before
> they can get anything. It is the Sufi purpose to help towards the
provision
> of the water as well as the dried onion, so that in due time fresh onions
> may be presented.
> Now, what if we read this and then substituted 'a book' with 'the
internet',
> and/or 'dried onions', 'reconstituted onions', and 'fresh onions' with
'the
> word Sufi', 'Sufism,' and 'living Sufi' respectively. Anyone got hot
water?
In lieu of a living Teacher, it strikes me that perhaps with Real Effort we
might squeeze a good deal of water from our own clouds? ET.
William F. Zachmann
ingredients through the interaction of the materials and life experience;
when I could be eating the food .... <<
Perhaps one is not really as hungry (or as needy of world-famous Cordon Bleu
chef's) as one thinks oneself to be?
Or, mayhap, one simply much better fed and more well-nourished than one
might have assumed oneself to be?
To be sure, while not every round thing is a cake, not every 'hungry' (or
'thirsty') "Seeker After Truth" is necessarily all that objectively
malnourished, either!
And (as the little story of Nasruddin's key makes clear), seeking "even as
far a China" is not necessarily one's optimal search plan, either, when in
search of a snack.
As the Zen folks put it: When I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I
sleep.
See?
<g>
All the best,
will
"Eric Twose" <er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b76gq3$ecm$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Eric Twose
> Perhaps one is not really as hungry (or as needy of world-famous Cordon
Bleu
> chef's) as one thinks oneself to be?
>
> Or, mayhap, one simply much better fed and more well-nourished than one
> might have assumed oneself to be?
>
> To be sure, while not every round thing is a cake, not every 'hungry' (or
> 'thirsty') "Seeker After Truth" is necessarily all that objectively
> malnourished, either!
>
> And (as the little story of Nasruddin's key makes clear), seeking "even as
> far a China" is not necessarily one's optimal search plan, either, when in
> search of a snack.
>
> As the Zen folks put it: When I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I
> sleep.
>
> See?
What more can I say except <<Burp!>> and <<Pardon me>>?
ET
William F. Zachmann
cultures in which loud belching after a meal is, in effect, a way of
offering complements the host and therefore, absence of such is considered
rude. But, of course, as some might put it: "Only Allah knows best!"
*;-)
P.S. Come to think of it, perhaps I HAVE been to such places after all.
(Specifically: local H.O.G. chapter pig roasts and the like)
"Eric Twose" <er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b78nfi$fjb$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Eric Twose
> I am amazed that even though people cannot agree on the
> nature/description/function of a Sufi, they would move so quickly onto
> the nature/description/function of a Sufi group and the requirements
> of time, place and people.
>
> Regarding other components of a correctly functioning group, there are
> many things to consider, for example of the top of my head we have. :
>
> 'Sufi Introduction' - 'Knowing How To Know'
Phew! You sure know your stuff. My knowledge is hopelessly
higgledy-piggledy. And wow, there's enough food there to keep a family of
seven fed for a month. How do you stuff it all in? :)
Now what would be truly interesting would be to get to know the *real* you,
Francesca, and how you're really getting on in your own studies and life in
general - aside from your policing role in the group.
Best Wishes,
Eric.
francesca_trb
>
>Phew! You sure know your stuff. My knowledge is hopelessly
>higgledy-piggledy. And wow, there's enough food there to keep a family of
>seven fed for a month. How do you stuff it all in? :)
Is that how you define knowledge?
As to how it gets stuffed in, that's easy : QDM.
Peace,
Eric Twose
> Dear Eric,
>
> >
> >Phew! You sure know your stuff. My knowledge is hopelessly
> >higgledy-piggledy. And wow, there's enough food there to keep a family of
> >seven fed for a month. How do you stuff it all in? :)
>
> Is that how you define knowledge?
> Regarding other components of a correctly functioning group, there are
Dear Francesca, that's what I'd call 'listing the ingredients', not
knowledge. Nor would I call my own posts knowledge-able in any way.
As I said, laying aside the useful but defensive battery of references and
quotes for a moment or two, I'd be *greatly* interested in Contact; in
finding out more about the Real you; how your studies are progressing and
how life's treating you, in general.
All the Best,
francesca_trb
>
>Dear Francesca, that's what I'd call 'listing the ingredients', not
>knowledge. Nor would I call my own posts knowledge-able in any way.
>
>As I said, laying aside the useful but defensive battery of references and
>quotes for a moment or two, I'd be *greatly* interested in Contact; in
>finding out more about the Real you; how your studies are progressing and
>how life's treating you, in general.
>
>All the Best,
>Eric.
>
Eric,
You may contact me at your convenience: france...@yahoo.co.uk
As for the rest, let's take it one step at a time.
Peace,
Eric Twose
a group of people find a car abandoned by the side of the road. It tells of
their delight at repeatedly opening and closing the car's doors and of even
getting the windscreen wipers going ...
... blissfully unaware that the real purpose of the car - and their own real
original intent, before getting sidetracked - was in actually travelling
further along that road toward their destination. ET.
Eric Twose
Whoops! What I really meant was to get to know the real you, to establish a
better contact, through this newsgroup, rather than privately.
I'm sure that Shah's materials can be taken a whole lot further than they
presently are, (numerous technical requirements not withstanding), and like
JP, I'd very much like to see where and how far we are taken. One of those
requirements is that aswell as having an ample supply of ''dried onion'', we
are willing to really test ourselves, perhaps almost to the limit, in order
to obtain at least some ''water'' and also sublimate some of our energies to
the useful production of ''heat''.
Cheers,
Eric Twose
> ''You Can't Teach by Correspondance''
>
> I have before me a packet of dehydrated onions. <snip>
> We do not have whole onions, it is true. Neither do we have fresh onions.
> But we have something which will enable us to recognize fresh onions when
> we taste them.<snip>
Now, what if we read this and then substituted 'a book' with 'the internet',
and/or 'dried onions', 'reconstituted onions', and 'fresh onions' with 'the
word Sufi', 'Sufism,' and 'living Sufi' respectively. Anyone got hot water?
Dear JP and All,
Like you, I'm sure that Shah's work can be taken a long way further. But it
seems to me that we also need some common theme to focus on as well, if we
are to act as a group.
Here's a simple daily exercise that *those who are interested* in taking
Shah's truth about dried onions further can all safely do:
At www.anchor92.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm are two gif images - a black and
white image called 'Heart to Heart' and a blue and orange image called
'Lionheart'. Pick the one you like best or swap between the two as you so
desire. Right click on each image to save it to disk or email me and I'll
send them.
Sit down somewhere quiet and relax yourself, mentally stating your intention
and doing your best to make a real, deep 'heart to heart' contact with the
Beloved.
Then, as free of extraneous thought as you can be, without struggling, focus
on the image and remain focussed on it as you gradually breathe in and out.
As you breathe in, direct your attention from the navel, through the centre
of your chest to your forehead and breathe out as if through the top of your
head or through your 'heart', if you prefer.
If you have only two minutes to spare one day or ten the next, it doesn't
really matter: it's quality not quantity that really matters. This isn't
meant to be a marathon or a form of self-mortification. If thoughts arise,
just let them pass, don't worry about them. It's only natural.
And let's see what - if anything - ''happens'' in ourselves and in this
group over the coming weeks and months.
Enjoy,
Eric Twose
"JP George" <jpge...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b71ovb$eqk$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> I have before me a packet of dehydrated onions.
>
> Let these dried onions stand for something that has been written down.
They
> are neither the original experience (the onion) nor are they nothing at
all.
> They possess a virtuality.
>
> Add hot water, and this is absorbed by your dried material. After a few
> minutes, we have something which we know to have been dried onions, but
> which is not now the same. What we now have is 'reconstituted onion'.
>
> We do not have whole onions, it is true. Neither do we have fresh onions.
> But we have something which will enable us to recognize fresh onions when
we
> taste them. This is an advance upon dried onions.
> -Idries Shah
> "Learning How To Learn"
> pages 67-68
>
> Now, what if we read this and then substituted 'a book' with 'the
internet',
> and/or 'dried onions', 'reconstituted onions', and 'fresh onions' with
'the
> word Sufi', 'Sufism,' and 'living Sufi' respectively. Anyone got hot
water?
>
> -JP
Dear JP,
Here's something that may be of assistance. Please especially see 'NS''s
analysis of the Persian words for 'Well', 'Water'; etc, etc. further down.
Eric.
First Things First
-----------------
A person cannot learn until s/he is in a state in which he can perceive what
he is learning, and what it means.
Nasrudin went one day to a well, in order to teach this point to a disciple
who wanted to know "the truth". With him he took the disciple and a pitcher.
The Mulla drew a bucket of water, and poured it into his pitcher. Then he
drew another, and poured it in. As he was pouring in the third, the disciple
could not contain himself any longer.
"Mulla, the water is running out. There is no bottom in that pitcher."
Nasrudin looked at him indignantly. "I am trying to *fill* the pitcher. In
order to see when it is full, my eyes are fixed upon the *neck*, not the
*bottom*. When I see the water rise to the neck, the pitcher will be full.
What has the bottom got to do with it? When I am interested in the bottom of
the pitcher, then only will I look at it".
His disciple pondered this lesson, linking it with other absurd actions of
the Mulla. A week later he went to Nasrudin and said: "Teach me about the
pitcher. I am now ready to learn."*
We don't see the world as it really is: what we perceive is mostly censored
through largely unconscious conceptual models which we have built up over
the years. Indeed, reality is so "rich" that the only way we can cope is to
filter out the vast majority of the sense impacts. Many of the conceptual
models or "vessels" which we have developed are primitive, developed in
Stone Age times. We are at a critical juncture in our evolution and many of
our models "don't hold water anymore" and hence need to be abandoned.
Thinking about the Titanic and the iceberg may help facilitate recognition
of this process.
(Anyone around here know anything about pitchers, please?)
*a traditional tale, retold by Idries Shah in The Exploits of the
Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, Octagon Press.
---o---
From NS: Hi, I did a year of classical Persian at the University of X, and a
year of Arabic in evening classes at the Polytechnic of Y School of
Languages. But I have never been in a position to exercise either of them
to the degree that would make me anything like fluent. To undertake the
sort of explorations demonstrated in 'The Sufis' requires, it seems to me,
only a grasp of the alphabets and the sounds. (The Farsi, or Persian,
alphabet is the same as the Arabic, along with a few more letters that
Arabic doesn't have).
I'm sending this to you because you asked me to, although I don't mind
obliging. You asked on your website if anybody around here knows anything
about pitchers. For all I know you could understand it far better than I do
[ET: I don't], and for that matter I have no idea who you might really be,
of course, or what you might really know. (I wouldn't worry, though: if
there can be so much uncertainty about whether or not Abdul Qadir Gilani was
real, I suppose no one's safe. Compare statements in 'Travels in the
Unknown East' and 'Observations'. If you have any insights on that, I'll
swap you.)
When I look at a piece like that Nasrudin story, I take some key words, find
their Arabic equivalents, and then look for other words that use the same
consonants, initially, at least, in the same order. I should emphasize, in
case it isn't already clear, that no one has tutored me in this, and I am
simply following the published examples.
English has only one letter for sounds represented by d, s, t, and z, but
Arabic has more than one, and also has letters for the 'sh' sound (which for
the purposes of this kind of exercise is treated as equivalent to s) and the
'kh' sound (like the 'ch' in the Scottish 'lock') (which is treated as
interchangeable with the g, k, and q sounds). It also has a letter for the
'gh' sound, which sounds like you're gargling and is also interchangeable
with g, etc. Thus:
WELL
1. ba'ir
bar - be truthful, keep one's word; charitable; God; faithfulness; good
action, creation
bar - dig a well; hide, conceal; send good deeds before oneself, do good
deeds in secret; first emanation of the Divinity
ba'r - deepest poverty
boor- knowledge from experience; uncultivated land; run, perdition;
reprobates, people doomed to perdition
abr- calumniate
abrar - state of being pleased, satisfaction
2. jub
juba - desist; detest, abhor; come out; hide; incline the neck; be blunt or
dim
joob - travel over, wander through; answer, respond; return; grant a
request, consent; journey
jubjub - travel, wander
jab - overbearing, haughty; answer, reply
jaboob - hard ground
PITCHER
1. abreeq
barq - necessary business; bad ground; lightning; flash, brilliance
baraka - stand firm; be obliged to remain, be unable to get away; rain
continuously; exert oneself; bless, make happy; rush forward; lean over
one's work; abundance, fertility
2. fakhar
fakhar - glory, boastfulness, disdain; esteem oneself higher than another in
merit, glory, nobility
faqr - poverty; care, sorrow
fakara - think, ponder over; contradict, oppose, thwart; need; thoughtful
attention; care, grief, sorrowfulness
3. kooz
kaz - dry, withered, shrivelled, shrunk; hard and inflexible, stiff;
miserly, niggardly
kaz - be full, surfeited; loathe, feel aversion to; oppress, put to great
anxiety; be full of water
kazu - be hard, firm, solid
qaz - aversion, loathing
qaza' - make one apt for business, instruct
qa'z - fill
qeez - be very hot; yield no rain; drought
4. karaz
karz - worthless person; miser; clever, masterly
NECK
1. raqaba(t)
raqaba - observe attentively, be on the watch for, watch, expect; guard; spy
out; be or stand high; tower; slave, serf, subject; submissiveness;
vigilance, caution, fear
rakaba - compose, mix, join, insert, fit (to each other)
raghaba - desire, crave, wish for, incline to; turn away from, be averse;
call humbly and fervently on God, pray; entreat humbly; be greedy and
voracious
2. 'anq
'anq - tower, project; be long; deceive, delude; bear one's head high
'ank - the larger part of anything; door; root, origin
anq - astonish, be agreeably surprised, like, rejoice at; eagerly long for;
devote oneself assiduously to a thing, perform a thing intelligently and
well
anqiya - pure, clean, holy
naqiya(t) - best and most refined part; what is thrown away in selecting,
refuse
naqee - suck the marrow out of a bone, marrow; pure, holy; brain
nook - be stupid
naka - pay one's debt to, fulfill one's obligation toward
3. tooq
tooq - power, ability, capability, support
tooq - desire, longing; be quick and vigilant; sacrifice oneself from
generosity
tuqeet - fixing a time
ta'iq - be full; be full of grief or anger
teek - be very stupid, be an idiot
BOTTOM
1. safala(t)
safal - lowliness; misery
safala - be deep down; low, mean, contemptible; be despised; lower oneself
saflee - earthly; worldly things; incidents, matters of secondary importance
2. qa'r
qa'r - dig deep; fathom; empty cup to the bottom; excavate; extirpate
ghoor - depth of mind; deep thought, meditation
qa'r - be hollow and empty
qara - stay permanently in a place, dwell quietly, persist; whisper secrets;
state proofs or a fact; decide upon, determine; be refreshed or consoled by
a pleasant sight
qarar - promise, agreement; truth; artizan, working man
kara - return to, flee and attack afresh with a sudden turn; repeat; purify,
refine, extract the essence
koora - fall down, tumble
kheer - good, excellent; prefer, choose, select; liberality, generosity;
good action
gheer - bestow benefits, rain, etc., upon; be useful to; change, alter,
transform; carry on exchange with; emaciate; jealousy, envy; difference;
rain
WATER
1. ma'
ma' - with, together with, at the same time, along with
ma'ee - irrigation canal; juxtaposition; shrewdness
wama - give a sign or hint to
If you review these lists, which are not exhaustive, I'm sure it will be as
apparent to you as it is to me that there are many resonances with not only
themes in that story as it is told in the 'Exploits', but with other
published materials. For instance, the would-be disciple says he wants to
be taught about 'the truth'. One of the meanings of one of the words that
sounds like one of the words for 'bottom' is 'truth', so in that sense the
disciple may, perhaps, be said to already know what it is he is asking about
(bearing in mind the role of the bottom of the pitcher in the story).
One of the things I find particularly interesting about this is that it is
only in the commentary that the teller makes reference to Nasrudin's
incurring blame and acting the fool, and that is in fact precisely one of
the recurring themes in the word groups. Another thing I find interesting
is the references to rain and the ground, to hard or uncultivated ground. It
suggests to me that part of the disciple's problem may be that he doesn't
realize that the action Nasrudin is performing and that he assumes is
idiotic is, in fact, doing something not only useful but extremely
necessary: he is watering the ground. Bound up with that is the disciple's
self centredness, etc., which may be related to the desire to retain
something for oneself alone instead of for the good of all (keeping the
water in the pitcher instead of letting it flow through), and how this
relates to the pride and ignorance mentioned in the commentary. Then
there's the 'putting together' that the disciple does, and his returning
after a time. And the proximity of the 'brq' root to the flowing water and
the well, reminding me of references in 'Among the Dervishes' to sending
energy out to far places as if by underground waterways, and in 'Caravan of
Dreams' to people who 'make themselves knowing mediums, fully sensitized'.
And so on. Of course, I could be wrong... NS
---o---
The common denominator of elements such as well, pitcher, hard ground, rain
and so on may well be "water" (?) Like "the truth", it forms a unified,
living, ever-moving entity; something so vast and complex that it is beyond
our everyday grasp, despite its imminence. Indeed, at this level, like the
fish who asked what water was, we are largely unconscious of it; yet
entirely dependent upon this substance or being. This is not to say that we
cannot understand these things in an airy, intellectual, way.
In our typical condition, we can best understand such things through
immersion in first-hand encounters with limited aspects of them; building up
a picture of the whole through a constellation of such impacts, raindrops in
an ocean.
Thus, a well might represent a locally-available, understandable and
tangible aspect of the largely subterranean or distant living truth; a place
where the "two worlds" meet?
Unlike a natural spring, a well is the product of human effort and a deeper
understanding of the "water" cycle, geology and the like. [ordinary love may
be a bridge to Real Love, etc]. Such deep knowledge is not required in order
to be able to use wells, only in their manufacture and maintainance and the
enhancement and maintainance of a community's general education, too;
ensuring the future viability of suchspecialists, I guess. It is a
deliberately-engineered, mechanical means of delivering "water" with
reference to current needs (time, place and people). This could be done for
self-centred needs or for the greater good of the local populance (rather
than the whole world - though a system of well provision might be part of a
more global project or at any rate more widespread knowledge/technology).
Nasrudin takes the disciple to a well. Not his well, not the would-be
pupil's, nor to the local water baron, but to a well which is, presumably,
freely available to the locals - ie provided for the use and benefit of the
community.
He also takes a pitcher, which might come as no surprise to the
literal-minded would-be student; but the Sufi does this in the certain
knowledge that there is more to be drawn from the well than literal water -
even if he does not at this moment fully know why, himself, what will
precisely occur at the well. There are links here, perhaps, with certainty,
trust, patience... that kind of thing.
When he gets to the well, he does not fill his pitcher directly, but uses
another intermediary and more manageable vessel attached to or provided with
the well: a bucket. Not only that: a communal bucket attached perhaps to a
length of rope and perhaps to a winding mechanism; and hence able to reach
the water down below and which certainly must hold water.
He drew a bucket and poured it in; drew another; apparently oblivious to the
fact that the water was pouring out onto the ground around the well; a fact
which the would-be pupil could not contain himself to point out; looking at
the obvious as he apparently did [with links to ignorance, pride,
impatience, over-emotion, lack of trust; etc].
Were it not for the flaws in the pitcher, this provocative action would not
have been possible and the true nature of the pupil's own state would not
have been so craftily illicited; like a reflection in a mirror which went
unnoticed on the surface of the water. [Learning through mistakes,
experience]. Where did Nasrudin';s cracked pot come from? Experienec of the
same immature quality in himself before his own transformation? Is he
saying - look, I used to be like this, too (and that's okay - I understand
and accept you)? [humility].
The purpose of a pitcher is perhaps to further aid the distribution and
storage of the "water" to provide for the needs of smaller groups or
individuals. It could be carried away and used for many life-maintaining or
hygenic purposes; perhaps for the watering of a small crop where no more
sophisticated means of irrigation were available - for specific needs.
Were the "water" to be taken from the well, however, by those without a
certain basis tuition and the necessary materials, true, it would be useful
to the hard ground wherever it fell, but surely so much would be lost in
this random, haphazard way, were it all spilt near the well (which might in
any case have sufficient ground water) or drop by drop along the way back
home?
Yes, indeed, the story must reflect on aspects of the would-be pupil's
self-centred thirst for knowledge; and if he knew so little about pitchers,
then surely he would not know sufficient to able to dig a well for himself,
let alone for others; and rather than become a lion, he would remain a lame
fox?
The role of the well in sharing in a conscious, designed manner is mirrored
in the Sufi's sharing his knowledge with the would-be student, perhaps? It
may appear at first to the student that he is being denied something or
being harshly treated (as ground being tilled; hard seeds abraded prior to
planting or deliberately weakened during a harsh winter dormancy) - but
here, whether he knows it or not - hard earth is being prepared and seeds
are being planted. Nasrudin understands, recognizes such cycles and the way
they operate at the macrocosmic level all the way down to the microcosmic.
For a time, the seeds will remain dormant in the dark (winter, earthy
unregenerate stuff, subconscious?); then the hard earth is watered (spring,
emotions); the seeds germinate and hit the open air (intellect?) and
eventually come to fruition under the sun (summer, fire, spirit?) Until,
Eureka! a harvest (autumn, milling, baking...) arrives and the would-be
pupil goes back to the Sufi to learn more about pitchers...
Well, it's food for thought. Of course, I may be wrong... Anon.
William F. Zachmann
All the best,
will
P.S. If one has a current version of Microsoft Windows Picture and Fax
Viewer and saves both GIF files in the same directory, they can then be
viewed individually or alternately center screen against a black background
using the WPFV "slide show" feature.
"Eric Twose" <er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b79lta$g7r$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
William F. Zachmann
"¿Como no? ¡Voy hacerlo!
"William F. Zachmann" <w...@NOcanopusresearchSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:%Yama.14031$FN.86...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
francesca_trb
<er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Dear Francesca,
>
>Whoops! What I really meant was to get to know the real you, to establish a
>better contact, through this newsgroup, rather than privately.
Dear Eric,
Alas, such contact is not possible through this newsgroup. There are
numerous reasons for this, many of which you already know.
>
>I'm sure that Shah's materials can be taken a whole lot further than they
>presently are, (numerous technical requirements not withstanding), and like
>JP, I'd very much like to see where and how far we are taken.
Where are you going to take them? I will watch with interest as you
and the others embark upon that journey.
'What you have to go on at the moment are assumptions which are not
useful. We admire a man who wants to find his way through a trackless
waste by himself. We do not admire him if he has no means, food nor
perceptions.
The method is by application: but this must be purposeful
application. Do you know how?
What you are saying in your statement is this: ` I want to get up a
mountain. I can lift my boot by the straps. Therefore I will put on
the boots , grasps the straps, and pull myself up.' Try it sometime.
To get anywhere you must have landmarks or instruments to arrive by
observation or by dead reckoning. You have neither of these. What you
do have is comfortable and tantalising sense of mystery. As yet you
have no orientation. But you do not know it. Few people will tell
you, either; for that is the way things are.' -Idries Shah
>One of those
>requirements is that aswell as having an ample supply of ''dried onion'', we
>are willing to really test ourselves, perhaps almost to the limit, in order
>to obtain at least some ''water'' and also sublimate some of our energies to
>the useful production of ''heat''.
Are you capable of implementing such tests? Do you know where these
limits are? There is great danger inherent in such thinking.
Regarding limits, *water* and the sublimation of energy etc, here's an
interesting snippet from 'Deeper Man', J.G.Bennet:
"Whenever undertakings are initiated in ignorance of the limitations
of our human powers, they invariably finish by perpetuating just the
sort of evils they were designed to avoid. Work that ought to be done
is not done; and what is done is given a false name...The real task is
avoided, resources are used up pointlessly, and what comes out of it
cancels out what is useful.
Part of what it is is called "building castles in Spain"; talking,
planning, dreaming that never results in anything concrete. We can
give this the name of imagination, but what is meant by this is more
than ineffective mental activities. Possibilities are being used up to
no purpose in the belief that, on the contrary something useful is
happening. When something or other tangible comes out of it, we
imagine this quite useless and inappropriate result to be just what is
right, believe it to be what it ought to be, and fail to see it for
what it is. All this is 'useless imagination,' to be distinguished
from creative imagination that results when we are able to place
ourselves under higher laws that open the ways to new possibilities.
Useless imagination is not simply a kind of harmless inefficiency of
the mind; it is unreal and destroys possibilities instead of creating
them."
"When we awaken into World 24, we can see World 48 for what it is: a
state of existence in shackles. We can realise that in the world of
personality, we have been dreaming about doing things and about
experiencing things but not actually doing anything or experiencing
anything."
Thy Will be done.
Remember:
'Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its
ability' - Sura 2:286
Remember also:
'There is a Persian proverb: 'To test that which has already been
tested is ignorance.
To try to test something without the means of testing is even worse.'
- Idries Shah.
You defined me as a highly developed Wordsmith earlier, I wonder if
the tables have now turned?
There are many things that I could say to you.
For example, if I were fulfilling the function of Sufi policeman (with
my partner, in a classic 'good cop' bad cop' scenario), as you
suggest, within alt.sufi, I would initially pull you over and give you
a speeding ticket.
"Of course there are limits, sir" I would say, following your
complaint. "No use moaning to me that you didn't see the signs. Rumi
has already told you that the way has been marked out for you (Way Of
The Sufi, page 111)."
Such signs of course being invisible to those without adequate
perception, such signs also indicating many things, including speed,
direction, and how to spot someone who may benefit from a lift..
I would then ask you for your documents, your license, MOT, and
insurance.
My partner may even be as rude as to ask you where your 'L' (Learner)
plates are.
"Are you familiar with the highway code, sir?" I would ask.
"Perhaps you should refer back to page 112 of 'Learning How To Learn',
'Psychic Idiots', sir," my partner would say.
Despite the date on your MOT, I would then give your tyres a kick,
ask you to lift the bonnet, and suggest that you refer back to the
user manual, and probably take it in for a service, the car that is.
"Not very environmentally friendly," my partner would say. "All those
harmful emissions, it's worse that smoggy London in the good old
days."
"Perhaps he needs a catalytic converter," I would say, "he's way off
the stoichiometric point."
"Yes," my partner would say," and remember what Idries Shah had to say
about too much Nitrogen in 'Knowing How To Know'."
"You should at the very least call the AA, sir," my partner would
suggest. (That's Adepts Anonymous.)
"Incidentally, do you know where you're going, sir?," my partner would
conclude, handing you an A to Z.
"Of course I do!"
"Then safe journey onwards," we'd exclaim in unison, the both of us
waving you on your way.
"Nice chap, good intentions," I'd say.
"One born every minute," my partner would say. " They've been paving
the road to hell for thousands and thousands of years."
Regards,
" 'A skilled artisan leaves no traces'..'She enters the water without
making a ripple'.
Similarly, Taoism idealizes the unknown sage whose benign influence
on the community is generally attributed to the course of
nature: 'The skilled appear to have no abilities, the wise appear to
be ignorant.' "
-Immortal Sisters, Secret Teachings Of Taoist Women, Thomas Cleay
Eric Twose
Dear Francesca - PS: OK, I deserve all you've given me. Sorry.
> >Dear Francesca,
> >
> >Whoops! What I really meant was to get to know the real you, to establish
a
> >better contact, through this newsgroup, rather than privately.
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> Alas, such contact is not possible through this newsgroup. There are
> numerous reasons for this, many of which you already know.
OK, Francesca, such is your inalienable right, but it doesn't help very much
when all I can see of you are Idries Shah's quotes and references and
pictures of him not smiling.
> >I'm sure that Shah's materials can be taken a whole lot further than they
> >presently are, (numerous technical requirements not withstanding), and
like
> >JP, I'd very much like to see where and how far we are taken.
>
> Where are you going to take them? I will watch with interest as you
> and the others embark upon that journey.
Perhaps you prefer the exercise that Shah mentions: the one where the
would-be students are requested to lead a camel over a high wall? Do you
have any practical, realistic alternatives that will actually move this
vehicle on, Francesca?
> 'What you have to go on at the moment are assumptions which are not
> useful. We admire a man who wants to find his way through a trackless
> waste by himself. We do not admire him if he has no means, food nor
> perceptions.
> The method is by application: but this must be purposeful
> application. Do you know how?
> What you are saying in your statement is this: ` I want to get up a
> mountain. I can lift my boot by the straps. Therefore I will put on
> the boots , grasps the straps, and pull myself up.' Try it sometime.
> To get anywhere you must have landmarks or instruments to arrive by
> observation or by dead reckoning. You have neither of these. What you
> do have is comfortable and tantalising sense of mystery. As yet you
> have no orientation. But you do not know it. Few people will tell
> you, either; for that is the way things are.' -Idries Shah
That sounds fine coming from Shah himself, but aren't you aware of just how
critical and condescending these words sound coming from your own mouth - or
keyboard, Francesca? Or maybe that's why you prefer the words to come from
Shah, so you can pretend you yourself are far more reasonable?
Have you once stopped to consider that I am fully aware that what I am
suggesting as a possibility is something that certain people will find
implausible or heretical? Perhaps my intervention was too provocative or
offensive? Sorry.
Again, why doesn't the real Francesca simply stand up and say 'I [Francesca]
think you are ignorant, Eric. What you are suggesting goes against the
beliefs instilled in me by the likes of Idries Shah and Gordon Bennet!'
Why not simply say, Francesca: 'Eric, in my opinion, you are building
castles in the sand. In my vast knowledge and wealth of experience, your
efforts are useless, Eric!'
> "When we awaken into World 24, we can see World 48 for what it is: a
> state of existence in shackles. We can realise that in the world of
> personality, we have been dreaming about doing things and about
> experiencing things but not actually doing anything or experiencing
> anything."
>
> Thy Will be done.
>
> Remember:
>
> 'Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its
> ability' - Sura 2:286
>
> Remember also:
>
> 'There is a Persian proverb: 'To test that which has already been
> tested is ignorance.
Why don't you stop hiding behind others' words and say 'I, Francesca,
consider you to be ignorant, Eric.'
> To try to test something without the means of testing is even worse.'
> - Idries Shah.
Again, why not: 'Eric, I think you are worse than ignorant.'
> You defined me as a highly developed Wordsmith earlier, I wonder if
> the tables have now turned?
Why do you seek retribution, Francesca?
OK, so I'm sorry if I wound you up. Anyhow, as I said THIS *is* an important
learning experience, for me at least. Thank you for your generosity,
Francesca.
Eric Twose
Shah has constructed an elaborate box, capable of holding the contents of
the lesser box or island in ''The Islanders'' (at the very start of ''The
Sufis'').
In my albeit ignorant experience, my current hypothesesis is that without
the help of a Sufi Teacher there is no way out, (which is probably the way
the box was designed) other than to stay exactly where I am or to give up
altogether, but that in itself isn't really an option, since over the years,
the materials have changed me and others in some ways.
What I'm trying to do is ''think and act and communicate outside Shah's box
(as well)''. It stikes me that one entity that is not restricted to even
Shah's humungous box is the heart; anotheris the Beloved, the Source Himself
or Herself. And as Shah quotes: ''heart to heart [rather than head to head!]
is an essential means of passing on the secrets of the Path.''
If that offends you, or you find it ignorant, worse than ignorant or
heretical, then I'm sorry. I'm all this and worse. As I said when I proposed
the simple, safe exercise: if you're interested, fine. If you're not, then
please don't beat us to a pulp over it - I for one am quite capable of doing
that to myself, myself, thanks. Just ignore me and I'll probably go away of
my own accord.
Best Wishes,
Obo Vajrin
> >
> >Whoops! What I really meant was to get to know the real you, to establish
a
> >better contact, through this newsgroup, rather than privately. >>
<< >
>
> Alas, such contact is not possible through this newsgroup. There are
> numerous reasons for this, many of which you already know.
>>
Dear trb, I am much more dense than Eric, for I do not understand the non
possibility of revealing a more "personal" you or your need to be so
"mysterious" or to avoid 95% of all questions posed to you when you ask so many
questions of others (I assume expecting answers to at least some of them.
Everyone here also asks retorical questions or questions for the whole group to
ask of themselves and ponder).
My understanding is that in the Sufi way, we learn by experience, from
experience, thru experience. Most of us here have shared our experiences and
perhaps what some of those experiences have ment to us. Right or wrong. I
have been reading your posts for a year or two and have gotten nothing from you
(maybe this is just my dense self) but lots of quotes and questions and the
impression that you are much akin to an internet search engine. I once asked
JVarty why he used so many differant internet identities, and his responce that
it was functional (what ever that may mean was not explained or understood by
me). David F over at Caravansarai is still convinced that you and he are one
person. So what is functional by all this confussion, these smoke and mirrors,
these pretensions to authority? I really do not mean to be hostile. For all
that you seem to know about Idries Shah's writtings, nothing seems to come
across as to what it has done for or to you?
Again, my appologies if I seem to be coming across as hostile, but you seem to
expect from a lot of people what you yourself do not seem willing to give. Are
you really so far above the rest of us folks? Or to use an old expression of
Will's, are you so far advanced as to not be "One of the Bozos on the bus".
Share some care, obo
fjm
have read Idries Shah is a tendency to over-intellectualize the materials.
Among the sufis, the heart controls the mind. Among Westerners, the
mind tries to control the heart, and an intellectual Westerner tends to
find it rather uncomfortable and/or frightening to let go of the mind
even for just a little bit.
peace and blessings,
Scott
fjm
Did it not occur to you that the Mulla Nasruddin was acting out the
disciple's state? That the pitcher not only represented the disciple,
but Nasruddin's behavior also represented the disciple?
And how about this? Water always fills things by starting at the
bottom. Traditionally this was where sufism was taught, at the bottom
of society, where people, among other things, did not have a lot of
intellectual preconceptions and pride in their intellectual abilities
with no useful bottom to these preconceptions.
The bottom of the pitcher is also the darkest and hardest to see, much
like the unconscious.
peace,
Scott
fjm
Guess I'm not too bright. When I first heard the phrase, "pulling
oneself up by one's bootstraps" and learned what it meant, I actually
went someplace where I thought no one could see me and tried it, just to
see what actually would happen.
peace,
fjm
<<snip>>
fjm
Let's put your position like this --
Once there was a starving man who was starving because his local grocer
had died. This grocer had told him and others that starving people need
to find a grocer. So he started seeking a grocer, repeating to himself
over and over, "I need to find a grocer, I need to find a grocer, I need
to find a grocer...", until it became a habit. One day, while on his
search to find a grocer, he was given a bit of food by a man standing in
front of a building, but he was so busy repeating to himself, "I need to
find a grocer, I need to find a grocer, I need to find a grocer...",
that he did not notice that the man in the apron was standing right in
front of a grocer's store, and he started walking away, chewing on the
morsel of food that the grocer had given him.
Did the man keep on walking, repeating to himself, "I need to find a
grocer, I need to find a grocer, I need to find a grocer..." or did he
stop after a bit, suddenly realizing what had just transpired, and turn
around and go back to the grocer in the apron standing in front of the
grocer's store?
I don't know the answer to this, Eric. The answer to it depends
completely upon what you do.
peace,
Scott
Eric Twose
news:3E9A3187...@netscape.not...
> Eric,
>
> Did it not occur to you that the Mulla Nasruddin was acting out the
> disciple's state? That the pitcher not only represented the disciple,
> but Nasruddin's behavior also represented the disciple?
Cheers, Scott. The original commentary and this very point were indeed
mentioned on the web page. The analysis was not intended to be exhaustive.
> And how about this? Water always fills things by starting at the
> bottom. Traditionally this was where sufism was taught, at the bottom
> of society, where people, among other things, did not have a lot of
> intellectual preconceptions and pride in their intellectual abilities
> with no useful bottom to these preconceptions.
>
> The bottom of the pitcher is also the darkest and hardest to see, much
> like the unconscious.
>
> peace,
>
> Scott
Good points. Thanks.
Regarding the conscious and linking this to Martin's avoidance of stories
''scattered'' in a another thread - for me, the Sufi thing has made some
unconscious things conscious and also the reverse - things that had to be
done with a conscious effort (eg learning to play a violin) has become
unconscious ... turned ''inside out'' in a sense.
Cheers.
Eric.
francesca_trb
You talk of tests and limits.
If my last post were a test, did you pass or fail?
The Boat, Commanding Self.
Finding a Teacher, Commanding Self.
The Hammer: Knowing How To Know.
I find it intriguing that you claim to know nothing of me and then
make several questionable allegations/assumptions. It would appear
that you already have (along with several others here) a pretty good
picture of me in your mind's eye.
>> Alas, such contact is not possible through this newsgroup. There are
>> numerous reasons for this, many of which you already know.
>
>OK, Francesca, such is your inalienable right, but it doesn't help very much
>when all I can see of you are Idries Shah's quotes and references and
>pictures of him not smiling.
Such is my right indeed, and such is yours. Note that I did not rule
out such contact, I only said that within the context of alt.sufi
there is only so far I'm prepared to go (this may also apply in
private dialogue, circumstances vary). Would you feel more comfortable
if I became a life long member of the 'Fried Brain Club', one of the
boys/girls?
Regarding quotes etc, there are many reasons why I function like this.
For example, like Idries and Omar Ali Shah (OASIS), I am a great
believer in helping others to find their own answers, the initial step
in such a process being the acquisition and subsequent familiarisation
of materials related to that which they are expressing such great
interest in.
Also, generally, I really don't see the need to reinvent any wheels.
However, let me put it another way. If we were assembling, oh I don't
know, let's say a kitchen, or better still a Workshop and we both
arrived with a box of tools, and I pulled out a screwdriver when a
spanner was required. Then you may be entitled to question my use of
such a tool, and as long as you did this objectively, pointing out the
problems with such an approach we would both benefit. In other words,
the quotes are used in a context, which is a response to a need, if
they are not being used correctly, then please advise, and I'll
replace the screwdriver (that's a Philips head screwdriver, of course,
with a Cross on the top).
>Perhaps you prefer the exercise that Shah mentions: the one where the
>would-be students are requested to lead a camel over a high wall? Do you
>have any practical, realistic alternatives that will actually move this
>vehicle on, Francesca?
Eric over the years you have been exposed to many avenues within the
Tradition. For example, I remember the time you made contact with the
Omar Ali Shah School, or its fossilised remnants as you now prefer to
call it. If I remember correctly, you were overjoyed with this
contact, claiming that if they'd accept you then they'd accept
anybody. What went wrong?
>That sounds fine coming from Shah himself, but aren't you aware of just how
>critical and condescending these words sound coming from your own mouth - or
>keyboard, Francesca? Or maybe that's why you prefer the words to come from
>Shah, so you can pretend you yourself are far more reasonable?
At the moment, I am more reasonable than you may ever know.
On one level I'm doing nothing more than providing basic information,
information that you, and others here, should already be familiar
with, or, at the very least, be willing to engage constructively.
"The force of the reactionary self is very seductive. This self will
feel that the reactions it has are its very hold on reality. What has
to be understood is that the reactions that take place in us do have a
very important role in our lives, but they are only 'raw material' for
our own being and not ends in themselves. What has to be learned is
how to 'bear the clash of opposites' in ourselves, for it is then that
he reactional nature becomes as it should be.
The avoidance of this clash or tension is characteristic of the man
who is dominated by his reactionary self. It prevents him ever from
coming into contact with how things really are. Strength of feeling
within him is real a barrier to understanding himself or others.
Instead of having an insight into anyone, all he will ever know is how
he feels about them. If he is mentally active, he will see everything
as either right or wrong, true or false. He cannot understand ideas;
he can only accept or reject them. What he believe in is absolute for
him and he cannot enter into any other point of view, though he
probably believes that he is completely impartial and objective." -
J.G.Bennet, Deeper Man.
>
>Have you once stopped to consider that I am fully aware that what I am
>suggesting as a possibility is something that certain people will find
>implausible or heretical? Perhaps my intervention was too provocative or
>offensive? Sorry.
I have stopped and considered much about you and your approach.
The Truth hurts, if I were to explain it anymore I may thwart any
potential benefits, and I know how you feel about thwarting.
>
>Again, why doesn't the real Francesca simply stand up and say 'I [Francesca]
>think you are ignorant, Eric. What you are suggesting goes against the
>beliefs instilled in me by the likes of Idries Shah and Gordon Bennet!'
>
>Why not simply say, Francesca: 'Eric, in my opinion, you are building
>castles in the sand. In my vast knowledge and wealth of experience, your
>efforts are useless, Eric!'
I would never be so rude, well not at such a critical juncture.
>Why do you seek retribution, Francesca?
Eric, I really don't see it in these terms. If you do, then I suggest
that you still have a lot to Learn.
As I once said to Janice, if it were my intent to seek retribution,
then rest assured, and I really do mean this, I could dish it out with
such force that your boat would not only capsize, pieces of it would
be found floating on the 'Sea Of Tranquillity'.
>>
>> " 'A skilled artisan leaves no traces'..'She enters the water without
>> making a ripple'.
>>
>> Similarly, Taoism idealizes the unknown sage whose benign influence
>> on the community is generally attributed to the course of
>> nature: 'The skilled appear to have no abilities, the wise appear to
>> be ignorant.' "
>>
>> -Immortal Sisters, Secret Teachings Of Taoist Women, Thomas Cleay
>>
>OK, so I'm sorry if I wound you up. Anyhow, as I said THIS *is* an important
>learning experience, for me at least. Thank you for your generosity,
>Francesca.
>Eric.
I don't think its me that you are winding up; I would look much closer
to home.
For some one who is posting material relating to 'Tincture', and
'Learning By Contact' and 'Heart To Heart' communication, you seem to
be placing a lot of emphasis on personality, the written and spoken
word. I wonder if the following would have any meaning to such a
person:
'The Path (Order) of the Masters derives its substance in unbroken
succession from the earliest times. It maintains its connection, in a
parallel way, with both the ancients and the contemporary teachers,
*by direct communication of being*....'- Bahaudin Naqshband
Peace,
Obo Vajrin
Here's something that may be of assistance. Please especially see 'NS''s
analysis of the Persian words for 'Well', 'Water'; etc, etc. further down.
Eric >>
Many thanks for the info from NS!
I just recently acquired "The World of the Sufi" (came with my order of "The
Way") in it are a number of Nasrudin stories that are new to me. Here is one.
THE WELL AND THE WATER
One man bought a well from another. When, however, the buyer wanted to draw
water from the well, the crafty original owner said: 'You have bought the
well, not the water'.
The case came to Nasrudin to judge.
As soon as the details of the case had been read out, everyone in the court
craned forwartd to see how the Mulla would deal with this one.
Without a moment's hesitation, Mulla Nasrudin said:
'The well has been sold, without water. Of course the owner has no right to
store his water in someone else's well. He will immediately remove all the
water from it, or else forfeit all claim to the water'.
Another layer to the container/content thing?
Share some care, obo
francesca_trb
>Dear trb, I am much more dense than Eric, for I do not understand the non
>possibility of revealing a more "personal" you or your need to be so
>"mysterious" or to avoid 95% of all questions posed to you when you ask so many
>questions of others (I assume expecting answers to at least some of them.
>Everyone here also asks retorical questions or questions for the whole group to
>ask of themselves and ponder).
Obo,
Who's being 'mysterious'? I merely stated that I'm not prepared to
enter certain categories of dialogue within alt.sufi.
Show me some of these 95% of questions not answered.
How are you getting on with the list I gave you regarding the
components of a Sufi group?
>
>My understanding is that in the Sufi way, we learn by experience, from
>experience, thru experience. Most of us here have shared our experiences and
>perhaps what some of those experiences have ment to us.
Sharing experiences is one thing, knowing when, and more importantly
how, to share them, and with who, is another.
>Right or wrong. I
>have been reading your posts for a year or two and have gotten nothing from you
>(maybe this is just my dense self) but lots of quotes and questions and the
>impression that you are much akin to an internet search engine.
I thought that we'd addressed and moved on from that impression?
>I once asked
>JVarty why he used so many differant internet identities, and his responce that
>it was functional (what ever that may mean was not explained or understood by
>me).
>David F over at Caravansarai is still convinced that you and he are one
>person.
Talking out of school again, Obo?
I have taken this up personally with DF, as has JVarty. DF has the
technical capability, as most here have, to prove that we are not the
same person. The rest is up to him.
JVarty can speak for himself, but you may rest assured that I am not
him (of course he may think that he's me, I can't stop that. Only
joking Jonathan:-) )
>So what is functional by all this confussion, these smoke and mirrors,
>these pretensions to authority? I really do not mean to be hostile. For all
>that you seem to know about Idries Shah's writtings, nothing seems to come
>across as to what it has done for or to you?
What confusion? People use different handles for all sorts of reasons,
doesn't seem unreasonable. As long as there is no malice, I don't see
any real issues. A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet,
assuming that you had a sense of smell that is.
Pretension to authority: Powerfull stuff Obo.
What has it done for me? Do you seek reassurances?
>
>Again, my appologies if I seem to be coming across as hostile, but you seem to
>expect from a lot of people what you yourself do not seem willing to give.
I will let you into a little secret, I expect nothing from people.
When a banquet has been prepared, you would not expect the Host to
have to go around the table stuffing food into each guest's mouth
would you?
I will let you into another secret, I expect nothing of others that I
would not expect of myself. In fact, for the majority, I would expect
much less.
>Are
>you really so far above the rest of us folks? Or to use an old expression of
>Will's, are you so far advanced as to not be "One of the Bozos on the bus".
>
>Share some care, obo
Your impression's relating to my position on the ladder are just that
- your impressions.
I prefer to think of it in the words of my beloved namesake:
'What every one is in the eyes of God, that he is no more.' -St
Francis of Assisi
Or as Najumuddin the Greater would have it:
'The Truth it is which knows what is True.'
Regards
Obo Vajrin
From: france...@yahoo.co.uk
enter certain categories of dialogue within alt.sufi. >>
Whatever :D
If you don't mind I'll chose to respond emotionally instead of the usuall
quoted lines from you and a respose from me. I think I still have a thing
about authority figures. And so when I preceive you in a position of authority,
you get my bristles up. I certainly admire your knowledge of the Shah School
writings (Dune, JGB, and God only knows what else you have cramed in your
head). Maybe I even have a bit of jealousey (envy)? It is important to
become familiar with the material, but IS warns about being obsesional.
Perhaps it is just a mater of style. I think you live somewhere in central
England. I don't have this problem with most other folks whom I communicate
with from the UK. We all have language problems. I can hardly spell. So maybe
it is more of a class thing. I am third generation lower middle class, who has
choosen to lead a frugal (quality where it counts) lifestyle and so perhaps I
see a lot of folks putting on airs. So I should be able to get over it or just
compensate and say, "well that's just trb being trb".
Your style (what I have called the Search Engine) throws out a bunch of
referances and if we so chose we can see what Shah or some other authority has
to say about it. Useful, but is it timely? When I asked a few days ago about
the ideas of a "Group" and the internet, I was interested in hearing what folks
here thought about it or have experienced. I have read Shah and remember some
of it. A while back Bruce Main Smith talked about what it was like working in a
group in the sixties and seventies under Shah. At the meeting everyone had to
express an opinion of the story under examination. Maybe something to do with
what BMS called OsMoses. I take Shah as an Authority, but I guess I have
problems with you quoteing Shah as being an authority. Perhaps you do not
yourself consider yourself to be a Teacher (of the variety that is more
proactive than the rock in the road) and are merely sharing what you have to
offer. So I should welcome it, openly. But on the other hand you just told
Eric that to respond to something in a certain way would "make you just one of
the girls and boys" so I wonder if you do see yourself as a teacher to the
folks here and abouts (or ring master of the circus?). Clearly we are all
differant and only equal in the eyes of God. So please continue, I find you a
valuble imput to my life. But really, I would prefer to hear what is in you,
not just what you have read.
Since I am being long winded, may I continue. In my self assesment of myself
(my style, the persona/personality I project via the internet) I am at my best
when I am being timely. Maybe what some people call coincidence. A while back
a fellow showed up here (lived in Italy) looking for a second wife for a Muslim
friend of his. The day before it occured to me that it had been a long time
since I've read any "Fihi Ma Fihi" (I'm using this book as an opening for my
Rumi blockage), So I read a few chapters from my online copy. And that is why
I was armed with a quote from Rumi about letting the first wife choose the
second wife (and some general advise about the correct posture towards women).
I had read it the night before. What is the differances between a coincidence
and being timely? I'm no expert, but I think it has to do with knowing
yourself well enough and being in harmony with your environement well enough,
so that you can, so to speak, wait at the bus stop when the bus is due and not
be waiting 24-7. Maybe necessity also has something to do with it. And Aim.
Whatever.
So I am left with the question what is it of you and I that can be shared that
is not (in my perception) a "swordfight"? I usually just run from authority
figures. That I will try to work on. ;-)
Share some care, obo
Eric Twose
> Tradition. For example, I remember the time you made contact with the
> Omar Ali Shah School, or its fossilised remnants as you now prefer to
> call it. If I remember correctly, you were overjoyed with this
> contact, claiming that if they'd accept you then they'd accept
> anybody. What went wrong?
I merely said that the OAS school (or rather aspects of its international
grouping) seemed to be in disarray. Apparently, Alfredo's ranks are swollen
with OAS's old students and even responsibles, especially in Central
America. I did not say that *this* school had fossilized.
Cheers,
Eric Twose
> Dear Eric,
> For some one who is posting material relating to 'Tincture', and
> 'Learning By Contact' and 'Heart To Heart' communication, you seem to
> be placing a lot of emphasis on personality, the written and spoken
> word. I wonder if the following would have any meaning to such a
> person:
>
> 'The Path (Order) of the Masters derives its substance in unbroken
> succession from the earliest times. It maintains its connection, in a
> parallel way, with both the ancients and the contemporary teachers,
> *by direct communication of being*....'- Bahaudin Naqshband
>
>
> Peace,
>
Dear Francesca,
Thanks for that. And in my other reply, strike out 'Central America' and
insert 'Latin America'.
Regarding the heart to heart stuff and the Sufi's developed capacity of
''infallible intuition''. I'm certain that this is where progress can be
made. Hence my emphasis on 'talk vs mutter'; getting to know one-another
better as real live human beans; stories and my intent of
encouraging myself and other interested folk to go along with their
''hunches''. I'm a firm UNbeliever in 'Children [and lesser mortals like
myself] should be seen and not heard'. This, even if a lot of the time these
hunches prove wrong;
nevertheless sometimes they will be right. A lot can be learnt if one is
allowed to make mistakes. Anyhow, for what it's worth - I consider this a
useful
exercise; though others are bound to disagree. Each to his or her own.
Later,
trb
<er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> Eric over the years you have been exposed to many avenues within the
>> Tradition. For example, I remember the time you made contact with the
>> Omar Ali Shah School, or its fossilised remnants as you now prefer to
>> call it. If I remember correctly, you were overjoyed with this
>> contact, claiming that if they'd accept you then they'd accept
>> anybody. What went wrong?
>
>I merely said that the OAS school (or rather aspects of its international
>grouping) seemed to be in disarray. Apparently, Alfredo's ranks are swollen
>with OAS's old students and even responsibles, especially in Central
>America. I did not say that *this* school had fossilized.
>
>Cheers,
>Eric.
>
Eric,
Here's what you said:
"However, following Shah's death there has been an ''interregnum'' and
I see in Shah's camp and in Omar Ali Shah's camp signs of
fossilization and disarray, perhaps due to the power vacuum and many
former and would-be students still coming along are surely in need of
the orientation and study/work that comes beyond the books?"
Regards,
Eric Twose
Sure:
''I see in Shah's camp and in Omar Ali Shah's camp signs of fossilization
and disarray''
ie In SHAH's CAMP --- FOSSILIZATION
in OAS'S CAMP --- DISARRAY
+ missing word *RESPECTIVELY*
trb
<er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>"francesca_trb" <france...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:3e9aa3ad...@news.tiscali.co.uk...
>> Dear Eric,
>
>> For some one who is posting material relating to 'Tincture', and
>> 'Learning By Contact' and 'Heart To Heart' communication, you seem to
>> be placing a lot of emphasis on personality, the written and spoken
>> word. I wonder if the following would have any meaning to such a
>> person:
>>
>> 'The Path (Order) of the Masters derives its substance in unbroken
>> succession from the earliest times. It maintains its connection, in a
>> parallel way, with both the ancients and the contemporary teachers,
>> *by direct communication of being*....'- Bahaudin Naqshband
>>
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>
>Dear Francesca,
>
>Thanks for that. And in my other reply, strike out 'Central America' and
>insert 'Latin America'.
>
Eric,
We all make mistakes, that is true, and such should be allowed,
tolerated and understood.
>Regarding the heart to heart stuff and the Sufi's developed capacity of
>''infallible intuition''. I'm certain that this is where progress can be
>made. Hence my emphasis on 'talk vs mutter'; getting to know one-another
>better as real live human beans; stories and my intent of
>encouraging myself and other interested folk to go along with their
>''hunches''.
(I'll assume that's 'beings', although I sometimes have my doubts.)
But there is a difference between those who make mistakes and learn
from them, having had the opportunity to see them in action, no matter
how long that may take, and those who carry on regardless, ignoring
sensible advice, especially when that advice is coming from several
parties, and addressing several genuine concerns.
Ignoring whatever went wrong with Omar Ali Shah, for a moment, you
talk of the need for a physical teacher. Ok, let's assume that you are
ready to engage such, would you recognise the operation of one?
Have you considered the possiblity that you are looking for splashes
in the Ocean, while all around you those not making ripples are giving
you what you need?
You are certain that 'Heart to Heart' and the rest, is where progress
can be made, have you considered the possibility that you are not yet
equipped, let alone ready, to perceive the operation of such
'communication'? For example, have you read 'The Hidden Current In
Man,' found in 'Knowing How To Know'? Or have you considered this also
from 'Knowing How To Know':
Authenticity: 'If you demand experience without the preparation which
alone makes it possible, you are preventing yourself from
experiencing. Almost anything I might do or say would only, in such a
case as yours, strengthen your current prejudices."
Another way to view this problem is to consider the possibility that
exposure to such experiences/communication on the unfit would only
reinforce the very characteristics we are trying to bring to light.
Therefore, such action, contrary to all preconceptions/assumptions,
would leave you in a *worse* position, not a better one. As an
analogy, consider what would happen if we let a child spend several
years preparing for the 11+ with a calculator, then removed it for the
actual exam.
You should also consider for a moment the great responsiblity placed
on those who are in a position to further the development of mankind.
Going along with hunches, now there's an interesting concept. Could
you clarify further please.
>I'm a firm UNbeliever in 'Children [and lesser mortals like
>myself] should be seen and not heard'.
To date, you have been seen and heard by several Sufis. I'm reminded
of the section from 'Learning How To Learn': ' A Meeting With Three
Dervishes', page 124.
Remember: "A person can always find us, but as to whether he is
accepted or not is another question."
Regards,
trb
>Sure:
>''I see in Shah's camp and in Omar Ali Shah's camp signs of fossilization
>and disarray''
>
>ie In SHAH's CAMP --- FOSSILIZATION
>in OAS'S CAMP --- DISARRAY
>
>+ missing word *RESPECTIVELY*
>
>
>---
>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002
>
>
Amazing, isn't it, what difference one little word can make. Imagine
now the difference a whole book can make, or even a whole corpus.
francesca
My news server is out of synch at the moment. Anyways:
> Whatever :D
>
> If you don't mind I'll chose to respond emotionally instead of the usuall
> quoted lines from you and a respose from me.
Well, I don't mind, but do you really have the choice?
>When I asked a few days ago about
> the ideas of a "Group" and the internet, I was interested in hearing what folks
> here thought about it or have experienced.
This was what you wrote:
"Now you touch upon a thought I have wondered about: what are the
components of a corectly funtioning group and how do our various
places where we gather on the internet fullfil or alter some of those
requirements?"
Perhaps you should have been a bit more specific.
It is highly unlikely that someone is going to step forward and say:
'Oh yes, I'm a member of Sufi group and this is how it functions'.
That would open up a whole new can of worms, would it not? I mean just
look at the fiasco over what a Sufi might be. So, failing that, we can
fall back on the general guidelines given within the literature, which
are also an important preparatory step.
>But on the other hand you just told
> Eric that to respond to something in a certain way would "make you just one of
> the girls and boys" so I wonder if you do see yourself as a teacher to the
> folks here and abouts (or ring master of the circus?).
Actaully, I asked Eric if *he'd* feel more comfortable if I were one
of the girls/boys. It's a question of peoples' expectations really.
>Clearly we are all
> differant and only equal in the eyes of God. So please continue, I find you a
> valuble imput to my life. But really, I would prefer to hear what is in you,
> not just what you have read.
The sound of an obo, perhaps;-)
Ok, here's what I'll do, I'll meet you half way. Kindly spill out the
contents of your brain into the next e-mail -- which shouldn't take
too long, ONLY JOKING!! :-) -- , and proceed to separate it into that
which is in you, and that which you have read. Is there a difference?
If so, please explain it to me.
>
> So I am left with the question what is it of you and I that can be shared that
> is not (in my perception) a "swordfight"? I usually just run from authority
> figures. That I will try to work on. ;-)
>
> Share some care, obo
Peace,
William F. Zachmann
*;-)
"francesca" <france...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bebb7365.0304...@posting.google.com...
fjm
Eric Twose wrote:
> Dear Francesca,
>
> Thanks for that. And in my other reply, strike out 'Central America' and
> insert 'Latin America'.
>
> Regarding the heart to heart stuff and the Sufi's developed capacity of
> ''infallible intuition''. I'm certain that this is where progress can be
> made. Hence my emphasis on 'talk vs mutter'; getting to know one-another
> better as real live human beans; stories and my intent of
> encouraging myself and other interested folk to go along with their
> ''hunches''. I'm a firm UNbeliever in 'Children [and lesser mortals like
> myself] should be seen and not heard'. This, even if a lot of the time these
> hunches prove wrong;
> nevertheless sometimes they will be right. A lot can be learnt if one is
> allowed to make mistakes. Anyhow, for what it's worth - I consider this a
> useful
> exercise; though others are bound to disagree. Each to his or her own.
>
> Later,
> Eric.
>
>
Shoot, Eric, is that all you want? Better intuition? I can do that for
you in anywhere from about an hour to several hours.
Here's how it works (I've done it before with people) --
Roughly half an hour of idle chit-chat, some talk about it.
Creation of a light, mildly hypnotic state -- person is wide awake,
still in control (needs to be, for this to work).
Access the intuition that exists within the person.
Enhance the communication between the person's intuition and their
conscious mind.
Here's what usually happens, which is one of two things --
The person's intuition is intuitive enough to know that the person's
conscious self isn't really willing to pay attention to it. How does it
know this? Besides being intuitive, it is part of the person and thus
right there inside the person's head, so it has a front row seat to the
person's real intentions. So after about two or three days of being
ignored the intuition just moves right back into the background to
where it had been before.
OR
The person tries to use it to do things like pick winning lottery
numbers and predict the future and gain personal power, etc., which the
intuition, because it is intuitive, knows would be wrong for that person
. But that person doesn't like that answer, so they quit listening to
their intuition and go back to listening to their old desires.
Intuition fades into the background again because it is no longer being
listened to.
And sometimes what you get is the intuition telling the person they need
to do something very important that they really, really don't want to
do, because it is scary, or too often because it isn't any fun, and life
just kind of becomes a misery for them until they do it.
For a person's intuition to work well, like you seem would like it to,
requires that it be integrated into the person's life as an essential
part of it. For some people, using the above process, this can take
maybe a few hours. Not true of most. Why? Because with a lot of
people, once you integrate one thing into a person, it unintegrates
another thing, so you have to integrate the second thing, which
unintegrates a third thing, and so on and so forth. Intuition is NOT an
isolated process within people. It is something that is quite
integrated with the hidden parts of people.
This means a LOT of work, to get the change to last. I mean, what good
is it if it won't last longer than a few days or weeks?
The last person I worked with this on to get it integrated into their
life it took over a year of 2 to 3 hours a night, 3 to 4 nights a week.
And we needed the help and guidance of a sufi the first six months or
so , anyway. And all because we started with the intuition (there are
other things that can take just as much time and effort within a person).
It was an interesting learning experience. Doing it the sufi way, i.e.,
following the directions of ones' teacher or guide, works a lot better.
peace,
Scott
Obo Vajrin
contents of your brain into the next e-mail -- which shouldn't take
too long, ONLY JOKING!! :-) -- , and proceed to separate it into that
which is in you, and that which you have read. Is there a difference?
If so, please explain it to me.
>>
The first thing that comes to mind is what I know about stained glass. That
has come from doing. I studied music at a conservatory and was taught music
from books. In 1979, I attended a workshop at Omega and studies music theory
under W.A. Mathieu, who was associated with Sufi Sam Lewis. Somehow, after
that experience, I started to compose my own music and find a new
fluidity(talking/singing with the fingers) during improvisation at the
keyboard. Perhaps he instilled in me a confidence to trust myself and find
music in my being and not just on the printed page.
So, if you are truely willing to meet half way, how about sharing what your
jobs/occupations/trainings have been in your life thru which you have found
ways to experience and express that which is Sufic.
Take care, obo
trb
Obo,
I said I'd meet you halfway with respect to your request for me to
separate that which is 'in you' from that 'which you have read'. And
although you have gone someway towards providing that information, you
have fallen short.
So again, can you please differentiate between the two categories?
When does something you have read become a part of you, as opposed to
not being a part of you? You seem to be implying that it is when the
information has somehow been absorbed into your 'being' (depth of
experience) through correct action i.e. 'doing'. Would I be correct in
that assumption?
What are the qualitative differences between action based on that
which is a part of you, and that which you have read which isn't?
For exmaple, in the moment you are involved in 'doing', as you define
it, where is what you have read?
>So, if you are truely willing to meet half way, how about sharing what your
>jobs/occupations/trainings have been in your life thru which you have found
>ways to experience and express that which is Sufic.
Again, let us think about this. Do you really know how to express that
which is Sufic?
You define for me what a Sufic experience is, and what is not, and
we'll take it from there.
Regards,
Obo Vajrin
From: france...@yahoo.co.uk (trb)
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 2003 8:36 AM
Message-id: <3e9d499b...@news.tiscali.co.uk>
Obo,
Regards, >>
What would be the reason for me to make the effort to try and answer any futher
your questions in the manner you want them answered?
Take care, obo
trb
>
>What would be the reason for me to make the effort to try and answer any futher
>your questions in the manner you want them answered?
>Take care, obo
>
>
>
Obo,
Interesting question.
It is not so much a case of me wanting the questions answered in a
certain manner, it has more to do with your desire to investigate the
Sufi reality and what that might one day mean to you.
Currently, and I mean no disrespect by this, you are using terminology
and asking me questions in a manner that indicates that you have yet
to answer them for yourself, or at least be aware of that which you
are requesting from me.
If you stopped for one moment and considered what you were asking of
me, perhaps transposing it into the more familiar art of stained glass
production, you would hopefully see this more clearly (forgive the
pun).
Therefore, the reason for you making the effort, initially, on one
level anyway, is so that you can see this i.e. to help yourself.
Peace,
'Sufism is studied by means of itself.' Some people answer, 'But why
should I study it in order to find out if it is any use to me?' The
answer to this of, course, is, simply, 'There is no reason why you
should do so unless you want to, this desire being based on what you
read and hear about.' - Neglected Aspects Of Sufi Study,
Idries Shah.
Obo Vajrin
Therefore, the reason for you making the effort, initially, on one
level anyway, is so that you can see this i.e. to help yourself.
Peace,>>
Yes, I can see the need in myself to know myself better. As well as it being
generally good advise and a part of most systems. Know Thyself.
What I am questioning is your ability/skill/authority at facilitating such an
enterprise.
<<'Sufism is studied by means of itself.' Some people answer, 'But why
should I study it in order to find out if it is any use to me?' The
answer to this of, course, is, simply, 'There is no reason why you
should do so unless you want to, this desire being based on what you
read and hear about.' - Neglected Aspects Of Sufi Study,
Idries Shah.>>
Another quote goes something like this, Sufism is something that is provoked in
a person, and then they make it their own. What I and others here have been
trying to get from you (I think) is what is it that has been made your own.
Your very own. And how you may have arrived at such a place (as-silsilah)?
You seem to have a great deal of factual knowledge, apperantly at your
fingertips, but what is your own?
"There is no reason why you
should do so unless you want to, this desire being based on what you
read and hear about"
Based on what I read of what you have to offer me and others, I am not
attracted to listen to you. I am no expert, but you seem to be a bit of a KAIF
killer. IMO
Take care, obo
Eric Twose
hard time. Don't disrupt Bob's dynamic and his flow in the group all the
time. Bob has a lot to offer us, if we allow ourselves to listen without
pulling him up over an undotted 'i' or a uncrossed 't' or a curly 'kuh'
instead of a kicking 'kuh'
A system is measured in its effect, rather than its overtly stated
intentions. If someone says they don't mean to be pedantic and they are
pedantic, then very often, that's precisely what they aim to be/their
function is/they are.
Can you swim, my dear?
Eric.
Eric Twose
technical terms and constantly spouted involved speculations and
interpretations.
'He drags the whole body of the matter to the feast, sure enough,' said the
First Dervish, 'but who eats a whole dead body without risk?'
'He is like the man in the fable. Too afraid not to ''Watch the door'' as
ordered, he carried it on his back - and thieves brokeinto his house,' said
the Second Dervish.
'Because he is greedy for knowledge, he is afraid of other people getting
any. This is a burden which makes him unhappy,' said the Third Dervish. 'If
he is unhappy, he makes other people anxious.'
--- Burdens, The Magic Monastery, p153
Eric Twose
"Obo Vajrin" <obov...@aol.com> wrote
> Based on what I read of what you have to offer me and others, I am not
> attracted to listen to you. I am no expert, but you seem to be a bit of a
KAIF
> killer. IMO
Dear Bob,
Stick around, please. Don't let all this put you off the scent. Thanks for
coming halfway and sharing with us your thoughts, feelings and experiences
in a genuine and sincere manner - this kind of equitable give and take and
expression of love and lack of 'slipperyness' is greatly appreciated.
''Inna el-Kaif, hadha el-Saif - Assuredly the Kaif is a Sword.''
''There is a danger in Kaif. People who perceive it and do not respect or
honour those who have Kaif, or respect Kaifdar situations, places, and so
on, become 'inverted to themselves'. This is a state in which a person's bad
characteristics become stronger, and where his or her self-control becomes
less, and where his hidden unpleasantnesses undermine his very being.''
Un fuerte abrazo,
Eric
trb
On 16 Apr 2003 22:02:41 GMT, obov...@aol.com (Obo Vajrin) wrote:
Obo,
>Yes, I can see the need in myself to know myself better. As well as it being
>generally good advise and a part of most systems. Know Thyself.
It is a big order to 'Know Thyself'; to know bits and pieces of the
jigsaw might not be so daunting.
>
>What I am questioning is your ability/skill/authority at facilitating such an
>enterprise.
It would appear that your questions are changing by the e-mail, as is
your attitude towards me.
>
><<'Sufism is studied by means of itself.' Some people answer, 'But why
>should I study it in order to find out if it is any use to me?' The
>answer to this of, course, is, simply, 'There is no reason why you
>should do so unless you want to, this desire being based on what you
>read and hear about.' - Neglected Aspects Of Sufi Study,
>Idries Shah.>>
>
>Another quote goes something like this, Sufism is something that is provoked in
>a person, and then they make it their own. What I and others here have been
>trying to get from you (I think) is what is it that has been made your own.
>Your very own. And how you may have arrived at such a place (as-silsilah)?
I could now ask is that 'in you' or something you've read? Of course,
it's no longer 'in you' because we can all read it. So, how did it get
there?
Hitting the nail on the head I see.
I have asked nothing of you except that you considered what you are
asking of me. That's all. No more, no less. And in that endeavour I
have gone someway towards helping you see the inherent problems in the
questions you are asking me.
For example, I question your use of terminology, and straightaway you
come back saying that I am a KAIF killer. Now, I must ask myself which
KAIF are you referring to?
Is it the Arabic KAIF, related to well-being and good-humour.
Or is it the Persian KAIF, related to 'intoxication' of the soul.
Or do you refer to the similarity between Baraka and Kaif i.e the
accumulation of subtle energies?
etc...
As for 'silsilah', I'm reminded of the time Idries Shah sent back an
*empty* envelope to answer that very question, when it was asked of
him.
>
>You seem to have a great deal of factual knowledge, apperantly at your
>fingertips, but what is your own?
I would suggest that you try to put as much effort into finding out
who you are and what you own, instead of trying to find out who I am.
>Based on what I read of what you have to offer me and others, I am not
>attracted to listen to you. I am no expert, but you seem to be a bit of a KAIF
>killer. IMO
>
Who knows, perhaps our Magnetic Centres have been magnetised by the
same Pole (that's Qutub).
Peace,
Bi-la Kaifa
trb
<er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Eric,
>Jeez! Fran', you can be a real party-pooper, can't you, giving Bob such a
>hard time.
I assume that's the Arabic use of 'Kaif killer'.
>Don't disrupt Bob's dynamic and his flow in the group all the
>time. Bob has a lot to offer us, if we allow ourselves to listen without
>pulling him up over an undotted 'i' or a uncrossed 't' or a curly 'kuh'
>instead of a kicking 'kuh'
You mistake, or completely miss my intentions.
It is all very well flying at 30,000 ft, and telling everybody how
nice the view is. It can even appear that you are making a lot of
progress. But it's all whooosssshhhhhiiingggg past.
For example, you fly through the materials, and they will obligingly
fly through you.
Sometimes it's necessary to land the jumbo (or was that Dumbo, the
flying elephant?). Go in deep, as you suggest, below the surface level
indicators.
I don't dispute that Obo has a lot to offer.
I don't mind answering questions, but at the moment I'm more
interested in helping people understand why some questions cannot be
answered, and not just by me, and why that is so.
For example consider:'What Cannot be Answered', 'Knowing How To Know',
page 160
>
>A system is measured in its effect, rather than its overtly stated
>intentions. If someone says they don't mean to be pedantic and they are
>pedantic, then very often, that's precisely what they aim to be/their
>function is/they are.
>
The effect of a 'system', hmm? Back to perception then, Ticture etc.
As explained, sometimes it is necesary to be pedantic, as we note,
Shaitan is in the detail. For exmaple, this is true for the initial
steps of any new development.
>Can you swim, my dear?
>
There is only ever really a need to swim when one finds ones self out
of ones depth.
Do you feel the water?
Regards,
'Deep in the sea are riches beyond compare.
But if you seek saftey, it is on the shore.' - Saadi.
'A man, never haing seen water is thrown
blindfolded into it, and feels it. When the
bandage is removed, he knows what it is.
Until then he only knew it by its effect.' - Fihi Ma Fihi.
Eric Twose
Where is the eal you?
To me, and I may be wrong, the sign around your neck reads something along
the lines of 'I'm not here to learn.'; 'I need nobody's help'; 'I am here
for your benefit, I might remind you'
Where is your genuine, open ''give and take''?.
Where are your positive qualities?
Is it your *intention* to put forward the many negative qualities in order
to illustrate something about others or for the benefit of others, without
associating yourself with them in anything other than a task-centred
fashion?
''Where lies your heart?'' as Kate Bush sings.
I'm at a loss . . .
Oh, well. It's probably none of my concern.
Best Wishes,
Eric Twose
"trb" <france...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Do you feel the water?
Maybe I'm wrong, but at this moment alt.sufi is awash with the stuff.
''If you seek Baraka, my friend, seek the Sufi. If he seems brutal, he is
straightforward, and this is his divine Baraka. If you want attention, even
negative attention, or imagination you will frequent for companionship those
who seem to give you reassurance and the lifting of depression alone. Take
this if it is your need. But call it not Baraka. To gain Baraka, you must
give unstintingly of what you have, in correspondence with others' real, not
imagined needs, nor what you think they need, before you can receive.
Receiving before you give is illusion and a sinful thought. If you have
already given - give again, and in this spirit.''
TWOTS, p288-289, revised.
trb
Eric,
This is getting surreal now, never mind 'eal'.
Regards,
trb
The first paragraph is interesting, too.
Obo Vajrin
your attitude towards me.
>>
I should try to cultivate not having an attitude towards you or anyone else
here. Thanks for reminding me of this.
And as I appoligized for having a foul mouth a few days ago, let me appoligize
for calling you a Kaif killer. This is what I have read about Kaif. As to
what of it may be in me everyone here can judge for themselves.
The KAIF System
Morag Murray
------------------------------
Kaif is the effect which a person, idea, event, object, etc., has upon one. But
it is distinct from aesthetic pleasure or any familiarly labeled experience.
When an experience which was trivial or routine gives one a sense of uplift --
this may be Kaif.
New experiences may or may not have Kaif.
Repeated experiences yielding pleasure or attractive sensations to not have
Kaif.
Eating, drinking, dancing, meeting people, visiting, travel, reading, seeing,
feeling, hearing, thinking -- may have Kaif.
The term for something which has Kaif is Kaifdar -- 'Kaif-holding'.
A person who can provoke the sensation of Kaif in an individual or a number of
people is called the Kaiyyaf (rhymes with 'I laugh'). The instructor in Kaif is
called the Sahib el-Kaif (Kaifmaster).
Also used is the term Kaifiat -- which means something like 'Howness'.
The Kaifmaster Barik Ali said: 'Kaif is the determining ingredient in an
enjoyment. If it is not there, true enjoyment is not there. If it is not there,
people may divert themselves with happiness - this is not Kaifiat.'
The Kaifmaster Ankabut said: 'Kaif is imparted into a thing. It may be imparted
by anyone or anything. When it leaves, only the shell is left. People eat
shells
when they cannot get nuts.'
The Kaifshinas is the Kaif-knower. He can appreciate Kaif. (Rhymes with Life).
He may not be able to induce it. His house may be untidy. But it will be full
of
Kaif.
Kaifju means a Seeker of Kaif. He starts by seeing other people appreciating
Kaif, and tries to find it wherever it manifests itself.
Kaif is used either as an indulgence on its own, or in order to provoke higher
states of consciousness, known as 'the secrets' (Asrar).
Kaif may be found in any community, at any time, under any circumstances. It is
not bound by language, history, geography.
Certain professions are held to be Kaifdar. They include those of chief of
stare, builder, artisan, poet and designers of all kinds.
Few professions are bereft of Kaif. Certain places are more difficult for
Kaifshinasi.
The very term Kaif has become cheapened, so that people use it to mean 'This is
something I like', or 'I enjoy that', or 'He has presence', or 'This is
satisfying, attractive, stimulating'.
You must beware of yourself using this term, and also of those who use it, so
that the coin may not be debased.
Kaif is defeated very easily. It is defeated in its attempted manifestations by
false ideas, by self-esteem, by hypocrisy of any kind.
There is a danger in Kaif. People who perceive it and do not respect or honour
those who have Kaif, or respect Kaifdar situations, places, and so on, become
'inverted to themselves'. This is a state in which a person's bad
characteristics become stronger, and where his self-control becomes less, and
where his hidden unpleasantnesses undermines his very being.
Kaif is in shape and in form, as well as in shapelessness and formlessness. It
lies dormant in places and among people where it is not perceived for a long
time. Then only the introduction of a conscious Kaifshinas will activate it
again in that community so that it may take its place to help mankind.
Kaif is not confined to humanity, but can be perceived by all living organisms.
Something which is aesthetically adequate, or emotionally stimulating can at
the
same time be devoid of Kaif.
Certain exercises, which vary in accordance with the person, place and the
general situation of his community, enhance Kaifshinasi.
Kaifmasters subject their students to experiences, related incidents, objects
and other matter which have Kaif, or can provoke it.
Kaif has a 'moment', called the Dumm-i-Kaif (Breathspan of Kaif) during which
it
may be, as it were, 'inhaled'. The Kaifshinas strengthens and makes permanent
his perception of it by the exercises which apply to this 'moment'.
In religious, musical and even social ceremonials, a Kaifdar is present. One of
his activities is to 'infuse' Kaif into the proceedings at a time when
uninformed onlookers might assume that the people are doing nothing, or else
are
engaged in an activity (such as recitation) which is only the vehicle for the
application of the Kaif.
Special Kaif-chambers exist, in which an individual with the correct
preparation
may concentrate and accumulate Kaif, and study it in its manifestations.
In degenerated usage, such Kaif-chambers continue to be used, sometimes as
devotional buildings. More often they are thought to be tombs, have fallen into
ruin because there was no apparent use for them, or seem to have other
applications, such as kitchens or bath-houses.
There is a well-known watchword: Inna el-Kaif, hadha el-Saif (Assuredly the
Kaif
is a Sword).
Hence the word SWORD is often used as a password and even as a synonym of the
working of Kaif.
Objects charged with a certain portion of Kaif are given, lent and carried by
many people who know. These, like Kaif-chambers, are generally disguised as
something functional, or else are ordinary objects which have been endowed with
Kaif. The vulgar often confuse this with talismans or charms.
The saying: 'Kaif-alaik!' is a sort of blessing. It means: 'May you have Kaif.'
In Turkey the Kaif-Agha was the individual entrusted with the royal Kaif. He
was
a Kaifdar, and generally assigned a court function as well.
Because its smokers have appropriated the term Kaif to describe (inaccurately)
their sensations, Hashish has become known as Keef, a mispronunciation of Kaif.
There is no real connection, of course.
Share some Kaif, obo
trb
>From trb<<
>It would appear that your questions are changing by the e-mail, as is
>your attitude towards me.
>
> >>
>I should try to cultivate not having an attitude towards you or anyone else
>here. Thanks for reminding me of this.
>
>And as I appoligized for having a foul mouth a few days ago, let me appoligize
>for calling you a Kaif killer. This is what I have read about Kaif. As to
>what of it may be in me everyone here can judge for themselves.
>
Obo,
Thank you for your apology, and for your informative reply.
Peace,
Eric Twose
> what of it may be in me everyone here can judge for themselves:
<<The KAIF System - Morag Murray>>
What you brought our attention to feels to me to be more than merely
informational: it feels timely and apposite to me. Above and beyond the
psychological and emotional movement that is occurring in this group (which
includes elements of transference and counter-transference which can exhibit
almost ESP-like qualities), I also sense that there is something more
''trans-personal''.
Perhaps this group [alt.sufi] is indeed going through a Kaifdar moment and
we need to be aware of this ''hunch'' to see what it is we can perceive of
this movement while it feels heightened? And indeed whether we can still
sense something when this group returns to a quieter period, as have the
Caravansarai and Chaikhana of late?
Best Wishes,
Eric.
Martin Edwards
>What you brought our attention to feels to me to be more than merely
>informational: it feels timely and apposite to me. Above and beyond the
>psychological and emotional movement that is occurring in this group (which
>includes elements of transference and counter-transference which can exhibit
>almost ESP-like qualities), I also sense that there is something more
>''trans-personal''.
>
******Martin Edwards.******
Come on! Nobody's gonna drive that lousy freeway
when you can take the Red Car for a nickel.
-Eddy Valiant
Eric Twose
news:3ea039a...@news.btinternet.com...
> >
> >What you brought our attention to feels to me to be more than merely
> >informational: it feels timely and apposite to me. Above and beyond the
> >psychological and emotional movement that is occurring in this group
(which
> >includes elements of transference and counter-transference which can
exhibit
> >almost ESP-like qualities), I also sense that there is something more
> >''trans-personal''.
> >
> Can't say I've picked that up at all.
>
> ******Martin Edwards.******
Oh Martin, if you truly wisheth to find out whether or not the ''emperor''
is
divested of clothes, or even if there really is an ''emperor'', then closely
listen to the words of the Great and Terrible Inner Bozo:
Readeth thou and studyeth the entire corpus of stories that Idries Shah's
tomes do containeth, then seeketh me out once more and - when circumstances
do so permit - thou wilt be given a practical demonstration.
Thus endeth the pronouncement of The Great and Terrible Inner Bozo.
Martin Edwards
>is
>divested of clothes, or even if there really is an ''emperor'', then closely
>listen to the words of the Great and Terrible Inner Bozo:
>
>Readeth thou and studyeth the entire corpus of stories that Idries Shah's
>tomes do containeth, then seeketh me out once more and - when circumstances
>do so permit - thou wilt be given a practical demonstration.
>
>Thus endeth the pronouncement of The Great and Terrible Inner Bozo.
>
>
that, is going to make me wade through that stuff you gotta nother
think coming, bud.
Eric Twose
> >Oh Martin, if you truly wisheth to find out whether or not the
''emperor''
> >is
> >divested of clothes, or even if there really is an ''emperor'', then
closely
> >listen to the words of the Great and Terrible Inner Bozo:
> >
> >Readeth thou and studyeth the entire corpus of stories that Idries Shah's
> >tomes do containeth, then seeketh me out once more and - when
circumstances
> >do so permit - thou wilt be given a practical demonstration.
> >
> >Thus endeth the pronouncement of The Great and Terrible Inner Bozo.
> >
> >
> If you think that Jacobean English, and damned bad Jacobean English at
> that, is going to make me wade through that stuff you gotta nother
> think coming, bud.
>
> ******Martin Edwards.******
Why wade through the stuff, Martin, if you can already swim?
Eric Twose
> >Oh Martin, if you truly wisheth to find out whether or not the
''emperor''
> >is
> >divested of clothes, or even if there really is an ''emperor'', then
closely
> >listen to the words of the Great and Terrible Inner Bozo:
> >
> >Readeth thou and studyeth the entire corpus of stories that Idries Shah's
> >tomes do containeth, then seeketh me out once more and - when
circumstances
> >do so permit - thou wilt be given a practical demonstration.
> >
> >Thus endeth the pronouncement of The Great and Terrible Inner Bozo.
> >
> >
> If you think that Jacobean English, and damned bad Jacobean English at
> that, is going to make me wade through that stuff you gotta nother
> think coming, bud.
>
> ******Martin Edwards.******
A man once sent off for a correspondence course in body-building, which is
kind of topical, rather, and it could equally well have been a
correspondence course in swimming.
As soon as he'd read through the books, he rushed off an email to the
publishers, saying: 'Congratulations, gentlemen! Have read the books. Please
forward the muscles as promised.' Cheers, Eric.
William F. Zachmann
Forn!
No Sufi practice permitted with a Sufi Union Card! All suspected of
attempted Sufi practice without a Sufi Union Card (with all Sufi Union Dues
paid in full, signed and sealed by your Local Enfranchised Sufi Teacher)
will be sent IMMEDIATELY to Hell (Gehenna for all you Easterners who no
speaka da English too good) WITHOUT YOUR SUPPER! There (in Hell, that is)
black-robed nuns (from the Order of the Holy Sisters of St. Joseph, no
doubt) will beat you with Righteous Rulers, make you kneel in the korner on
kernels of rice, and insist that you chant, over and over again: "No Sufi
Union Card, No Sufi Onion!" Rabia may not have desired Heaven or feared
Hell, but you darn well better -- or you will be in BIG TROUBLE with the Big
Guy in the Sky (and with Francesca, too!)
Happy Easter All!
All the best,
Hasnamus the Wicked
"francesca_trb" <france...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3e99658e...@news.tiscali.co.uk...
> On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:44:30 +0100, "Eric Twose"
> <er...@anchor92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Dear Francesca,
> >
> >Whoops! What I really meant was to get to know the real you, to establish
a
> >better contact, through this newsgroup, rather than privately.
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> Alas, such contact is not possible through this newsgroup. There are
> numerous reasons for this, many of which you already know.
>
> >
> >I'm sure that Shah's materials can be taken a whole lot further than they
> >presently are, (numerous technical requirements not withstanding), and
like
> >JP, I'd very much like to see where and how far we are taken.
>
> Where are you going to take them? I will watch with interest as you
> and the others embark upon that journey.
>
> 'What you have to go on at the moment are assumptions which are not
> useful. We admire a man who wants to find his way through a trackless
> waste by himself. We do not admire him if he has no means, food nor
> perceptions.
> The method is by application: but this must be purposeful
> application. Do you know how?
> What you are saying in your statement is this: ` I want to get up a
> mountain. I can lift my boot by the straps. Therefore I will put on
> the boots , grasps the straps, and pull myself up.' Try it sometime.
> To get anywhere you must have landmarks or instruments to arrive by
> observation or by dead reckoning. You have neither of these. What you
> do have is comfortable and tantalising sense of mystery. As yet you
> have no orientation. But you do not know it. Few people will tell
> you, either; for that is the way things are.' -Idries Shah
>
>
> >One of those
> >requirements is that aswell as having an ample supply of ''dried onion'',
we
> >are willing to really test ourselves, perhaps almost to the limit, in
order
> >to obtain at least some ''water'' and also sublimate some of our energies
to
> >the useful production of ''heat''.
>
> Are you capable of implementing such tests? Do you know where these
> limits are? There is great danger inherent in such thinking.
>
> Regarding limits, *water* and the sublimation of energy etc, here's an
> interesting snippet from 'Deeper Man', J.G.Bennet:
>
> "Whenever undertakings are initiated in ignorance of the limitations
> of our human powers, they invariably finish by perpetuating just the
> sort of evils they were designed to avoid. Work that ought to be done
> is not done; and what is done is given a false name...The real task is
> avoided, resources are used up pointlessly, and what comes out of it
> cancels out what is useful.
> Part of what it is is called "building castles in Spain"; talking,
> planning, dreaming that never results in anything concrete. We can
> give this the name of imagination, but what is meant by this is more
> than ineffective mental activities. Possibilities are being used up to
> no purpose in the belief that, on the contrary something useful is
> happening. When something or other tangible comes out of it, we
> imagine this quite useless and inappropriate result to be just what is
> right, believe it to be what it ought to be, and fail to see it for
> what it is. All this is 'useless imagination,' to be distinguished
> from creative imagination that results when we are able to place
> ourselves under higher laws that open the ways to new possibilities.
> Useless imagination is not simply a kind of harmless inefficiency of
> the mind; it is unreal and destroys possibilities instead of creating
> them."
>
> "When we awaken into World 24, we can see World 48 for what it is: a
> state of existence in shackles. We can realise that in the world of
> personality, we have been dreaming about doing things and about
> experiencing things but not actually doing anything or experiencing
> anything."
>
> Thy Will be done.
>
> Remember:
>
> 'Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its
> ability' - Sura 2:286
>
> Remember also:
>
> 'There is a Persian proverb: 'To test that which has already been
> tested is ignorance.
> To try to test something without the means of testing is even worse.'
> - Idries Shah.
>
>
> You defined me as a highly developed Wordsmith earlier, I wonder if
> the tables have now turned?
>
> There are many things that I could say to you.
>
> For example, if I were fulfilling the function of Sufi policeman (with
> my partner, in a classic 'good cop' bad cop' scenario), as you
> suggest, within alt.sufi, I would initially pull you over and give you
> a speeding ticket.
>
> "Of course there are limits, sir" I would say, following your
> complaint. "No use moaning to me that you didn't see the signs. Rumi
> has already told you that the way has been marked out for you (Way Of
> The Sufi, page 111)."
>
> Such signs of course being invisible to those without adequate
> perception, such signs also indicating many things, including speed,
> direction, and how to spot someone who may benefit from a lift..
>
> I would then ask you for your documents, your license, MOT, and
> insurance.
>
> My partner may even be as rude as to ask you where your 'L' (Learner)
> plates are.
>
> "Are you familiar with the highway code, sir?" I would ask.
>
> "Perhaps you should refer back to page 112 of 'Learning How To Learn',
> 'Psychic Idiots', sir," my partner would say.
>
> Despite the date on your MOT, I would then give your tyres a kick,
> ask you to lift the bonnet, and suggest that you refer back to the
> user manual, and probably take it in for a service, the car that is.
>
> "Not very environmentally friendly," my partner would say. "All those
> harmful emissions, it's worse that smoggy London in the good old
> days."
>
> "Perhaps he needs a catalytic converter," I would say, "he's way off
> the stoichiometric point."
>
> "Yes," my partner would say," and remember what Idries Shah had to say
> about too much Nitrogen in 'Knowing How To Know'."
>
> "You should at the very least call the AA, sir," my partner would
> suggest. (That's Adepts Anonymous.)
>
> "Incidentally, do you know where you're going, sir?," my partner would
> conclude, handing you an A to Z.
>
> "Of course I do!"
>
> "Then safe journey onwards," we'd exclaim in unison, the both of us
> waving you on your way.
>
> "Nice chap, good intentions," I'd say.
>
> "One born every minute," my partner would say. " They've been paving
> the road to hell for thousands and thousands of years."
>
> Regards,
>
> " 'A skilled artisan leaves no traces'..'She enters the water without
> making a ripple'.
>
> Similarly, Taoism idealizes the unknown sage whose benign influence
> on the community is generally attributed to the course of
> nature: 'The skilled appear to have no abilities, the wise appear to
> be ignorant.' "
>
> -Immortal Sisters, Secret Teachings Of Taoist Women, Thomas Cleay
>
>
>
>
Steve Clavey
>Dear Francesca,
<snip>
>Is it your *intention* to put forward the many negative qualities in order
>to illustrate something about others or for the benefit of others, without
>associating yourself with them in anything other than a task-centred
>fashion?
An extract from the section Why Didn’t You Say? in Perfumed Scorpion sprang
to mind here:
... ‘My dear fellow’, said the sovereign, for he had been educated in
England and spoke like that, ‘you must not blame us, but rather the fact
that you are spending a little too much time in the West. Why on earth didn’
t you tell my chaps that you only wanted to twiddle? Then they would have
left it (the radio).
SO, IF PEOPLE INTERESTED IN EASTERN TALES ONLY WANT TO TWIDDLE, THEY SHOULD
SAY SO ... (p. 111)
regards
Steve C.