(TECH) Small thing from Dark Frontier, may be nothing.....
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
can.
--
Visit my Domination Web Shite at:
http://members.tripod.com/Baronlowe/dominat.htm
Alex Sutton
Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
> can.
Why?
Strowbridge
>
> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
> can.
NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount of
KE.
C.S.Strowbridge
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
>> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>> can.
>
>Why?
Because if they can't stop KE there's no reason for them to drop their
shields.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
<dalto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Wouldn't it have to drop its shields so the tractor beam
>could get through?
Nope, shields don't have to drop to use a tractor beam.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>>
>> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>> can.
>
>NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount of
>KE.
Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
there's no limit.
Kynes
> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
> can.
What? This implies nothing of the sort. It tells us what we already
knew: that ST shielding can stop limited amounts of KE. It does not mean
the Borg can "adapt" to KE.
--
-EK!
[ ky...@choam.org | ICQ: 795238 | AIM: Kynes23 ]
Kynes
> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
> >>
> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
> >> can.
> >
> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount of
> >KE.
>
> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
> there's no limit.
I read this an I nearly died of a coronary until I realised who was writing
it. Once again, your deadpan antics nearly tricked me, Baron. :)
chaPOOT
help cuz there is a ship in orbit of their planet leaking radiation
all over, the Enterprise show up, locks on tractor beams and raises
its sheilds to protect themselves from the radiation. They then go
into an asteroid field to drad the ship into a star on the other side
of the asteroids. Picard says specificly in the episode, we will use
the shields to push the steroids out of the way and they were moving
at like .5 impulse. This shows that u can use a tractor beam through
your own shields. It allso shows that the Enterprise shields can stop
a lot of KE. We have seen the borg adapt to the Enterprise shields
many times and beam through them, drain them ect ect. Given that
ability..........to adapt to the type of shields the Federation uses,
I don't think it is hard to believe the borg could modify their own
shields to preform similarly if not a hell of a lot better.
One of the reasons the borg don't have shields that stop everything
all the time.......like the tompson machine gun bullets, a sword, a
small shuttle flying right up to their cube ect ect is that the borg
are seeking perfection AND they seek to conserve all resources and
accomplish everything with the highest degree of efficency. To make
their ships shields stop all kinds of energy weapons, solid objects,
all forms and types of beaming over and all other forms of things that
could be done to them, it would take alot of energy and that is
wasteful. They also don't mind losing a few drones, or even ships to
learn the best way to defend or attack someone and then whatever was
so effective at killing them is no longer a threat. The greatest
weapon against the borg is inconsistancy and the ability to do it
fast. If they cann't adapt, you can hurt them more. No one can protect
against everything allllll the time. The borg adapt so fast, that they
don't worry so much about that cuz they figure out how to hurt you
back alot faster, usually. :-)
chaPOOT
Jedi Anger
news:37adee5c...@news.btinternet.com...
> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
> >>
> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
shuttle
> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
> >> can.
> >
> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
of
> >KE.
>
> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
> there's no limit.
Debris from an exploding planet destroyed three cubes. Is that enough?
Jedi Anger
news:37AE333A...@student.canterbury.ac.nz...news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
> > > In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
shuttle
> > > in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their
ships
> > > can.
> >
> > knew: that ST shielding can stop limited amounts of KE. It does not
mean
> > the Borg can "adapt" to KE.
>
Their cubes can be destroyed by slow moving debris from exploding
planets.
> Whether they need to adapt or not isn't really relevant, although given
> how they react to other threats it seems logical they would only use KE
> shields after suffering damage from KE.
>
> They can even use KE shields on
> an infantry level; Worf bounces off a field when he fist encounters
> Picard/Locutus.
That was a force field, the kind put up inside ships, not used by drones.
JONATHAN A WILLIS
>
> Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
> > In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
> > in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
> > can.
>
> What? This implies nothing of the sort. It tells us what we already
> knew: that ST shielding can stop limited amounts of KE. It does not mean
> the Borg can "adapt" to KE.
But the Borg can resist some amount of KE, how much we don't know.
Strowbridge
>
> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
> >>
> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
> >> shuttle in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE,
> >> their ships can.
> >
> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
> >of KE.
>
> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
> and purposes.
BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
And I'll say it again just in case you weren't paying attention.
BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
Using this logic we can say a Chewie can defeat the entire ST universe.
Since we've never seen him die, he must me immortal.
So to summarize.:
1.) Borg shields can stop a finite amount of KE.
2.) It must be pretty low since the planet debris destroyed several
cubes in Scorpion.
3.) BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
C.S.Strowbridge
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:37adee5c...@news.btinternet.com...
>> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>> >> can.
>> >
>> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount of
>> >KE.
>>
>> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
>> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
>> there's no limit.
>
>I read this an I nearly died of a coronary until I realised who was writing
>it. Once again, your deadpan antics nearly tricked me, Baron. :)
Sod you. Well.....at least I got Strowbridge..... <grin>
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
<jedi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:37adee5c...@news.btinternet.com...
>> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
>shuttle
>> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>> >> can.
>> >
>> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
>of
>> >KE.
>>
>> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
>> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
>> there's no limit.
>
>Debris from an exploding planet destroyed three cubes. Is that enough?
Actually I was just hoking.....
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
>> >> shuttle in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE,
>> >> their ships can.
>> >
>> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
>> >of KE.
>>
>> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>> and purposes.
>
>BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
>
>And I'll say it again just in case you weren't paying attention.
>
>BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
>
>Using this logic we can say a Chewie can defeat the entire ST universe.
>Since we've never seen him die, he must me immortal.
>
>So to summarize.:
>
>1.) Borg shields can stop a finite amount of KE.
>2.) It must be pretty low since the planet debris destroyed several
>cubes in Scorpion.
>3.) BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! GOTCHA!!! You thoughtI was serious, didn't you?
BWAHAHAHAHA.
Robert Williams
Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
<37adedc2...@news.btinternet.com>...>wrote:
>
>>news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
>>> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>>> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>>> can.
>>
>
>Because if they can't stop KE there's no reason for them to drop their
>shields.
Yes their is: They needed the tractor beam to go through.
Rob
Strowbridge
>
> >> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
> >> >> shuttle in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE,
> >> >> their ships can.
> >> >
> >> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
> >> >of KE.
> >>
> >> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
> >> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
> >> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
> >> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
> >> and purposes.
> >
> >BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
> >
> >And I'll say it again just in case you weren't paying attention.
> >
> >BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
> >
> >Using this logic we can say a Chewie can defeat the entire ST universe.
> >Since we've never seen him die, he must me immortal.
> >
> >So to summarize.:
> >
> >1.) Borg shields can stop a finite amount of KE.
> >2.) It must be pretty low since the planet debris destroyed several
> >cubes in Scorpion.
> >3.) BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! GOTCHA!!! You thoughtI was serious, didn't you?
> BWAHAHAHAHA.
Considering how many COMPLETE morons there are on the Pro-ST side it's
hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest stupidity.
BTW, this is VERY similar to a tactic Elim used in one of our arguments.
C.S.Strowbridge
Alex Sutton
> hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest stupidity.
>
> BTW, this is VERY similar to a tactic Elim used in one of our arguments.
Isn't it similar to one Edam used several times in debate with Wayne Poe?
Strowbridge
I don't know, which debate was that?
C.S.Strowbridge
Alex Sutton
Strowbridge <strow...@home.com> wrote in message news:37AF38CF...@home.com...
Neither do I, but he kept saying something like "I was just fooling with you", though
I could be wrong...............
> C.S.Strowbridge
Lord Edam de Fromage
>> Considering how many COMPLETE morons there are on the Pro-ST side it's
>> hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest stupidity.
>>
>> BTW, this is VERY similar to a tactic Elim used in one of our
arguments.
>
>Isn't it similar to one Edam used several times in debate with Wayne Poe?
I don't think I ever said I was joking all along. There were several
threads I was in purely to see how much fun I could get out of them (all
with Poe surprisingly), and there was an occasion I got him and someone
else arguing against Wars abilities without them realising for several
posts before telling them.
But hey, if someone is stupid enough to be strung along without them
realising we might as well see how far it can go.
Alex Sutton
> realising we might as well see how far it can go.
Sure........whatever you say, Edam..........
Jonathan Boyd
<strow...@home.com> wrote:
> BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
Thank you for your thoughtfulness, it is much appreciated :^) Actually,
if you just say sorry for swearing after wards I'm happy. I'd prefer if
people didn't, but I can't make anyone stop. Not yet...
> Using this logic we can say a Chewie can defeat the entire ST universe.
> Since we've never seen him die, he must me immortal.
Actually, that's not true. You could lock an immortal person in a cage
and they wouldn't be able to do anything.
--
Jonathan
My ST vs. SW site :
<http://www.st-vs-sw.freeserve.co.uk/>
Wayne Poe
On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Strowbridge wrote:
> > > Considering how many COMPLETE morons there are on the Pro-ST side
> > > it's hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest
> > > stupidity.
> > > BTW, this is VERY similar to a tactic Elim used in one of our
> > > arguments.
> > Isn't it similar to one Edam used several times in debate with Wayne
> > Poe?
> I don't know, which debate was that?
Just about every single one since he got here.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Visit the Ultimate Starwars vs.Startrek Database
http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html *Comparative analyses
lo...@h4h.com *Pictures and .wavs
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Wayne Poe
On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Lord Edam de Fromage wrote:
> >Isn't it similar to one Edam used several times in debate with Wayne Poe?
> I don't think I ever said I was joking all along.
You did in at least two occasions when it was clear I defeated every
single one of your pints. It was your only other avenue of escape.
> There were several threads I was in purely to see how much fun I could
> get out of them (all with Poe surprisingly),
Edam's "get out of jail free card." With this, he doesn't have to be a man
and admit he's wrong.
> and there was an occasion I got him and someone
> else arguing against Wars abilities without them realising for several
> posts before telling them.
No you didn't, and its intellectually dishonest of you to even try to take
credit for that.
> But hey, if someone is stupid enough to be strung along without them
> realising we might as well see how far it can go.
Oh, I recognize the desperation of a coward for what it it. No need to
point it out.
JONATHAN A WILLIS
> > But the Borg can resist some amount of KE, how much we don't know.
> Their cubes can be destroyed by slow moving debris from exploding
> planets.
Destroying a planet takes 1e38 J of energy. Granted only a tiny fraction
of that will be delivered to the Borg cube, but its still a hell of a
lot of energy. Your 'slow moving' debris is actually liquid, possibly
even gaseous rock, and quite a bit of it too.
> > They can even use KE shields on
> > an infantry level; Worf bounces off a field when he fist encounters
> > Picard/Locutus.
> That was a force field, the kind put up inside ships, not used by drones.
But it shows they have the technology to generate a field that blocks
KE. Why they don't use it, who knows, the Borg aren't the tactically
smartest people around. But they definately have the capability.
Jedi Anger
> Jedi Anger wrote:
>
> > > But the Borg can resist some amount of KE, how much we don't know.
> > Their cubes can be destroyed by slow moving debris from exploding
> > planets.
>
> Destroying a planet takes 1e38 J of energy.
Uhhm, no, that's how much energy the Death Star superlaser would use, not
accounting for Aldaraan's planetary shield. The debris from the Borg
planet was moving nowhere as quickly as the debris from Aldaraan.
> Granted only a tiny fraction
> of that will be delivered to the Borg cube, but its still a hell of a
> lot of energy. Your 'slow moving' debris is actually liquid, possibly
> even gaseous rock, and quite a bit of it too.
Nope, it's slow moving debris. And the Falcon also encountered expanding
planetary debris from Aldaraan. Did the Falcon get destroyed? Nope. And
the planet destroying beam didn't actually hit the cubes, what the hell
does that have to do with their ability to withstand KE. Don't change the
subject. And Borg cubes can't stand that much KE, since a cube gets
destroyed after an 8472 ship rams them. Solar flares can destroy Borg
ships. Photon torps can harm Borg ships. Riker and Worf both decided to
ram Borg ships in desperate situation, if Borg were invincible to KE it
wouldn't have done any damage.
> > > They can even use KE shields on
> > > an infantry level; Worf bounces off a field when he fist encounters
> > > Picard/Locutus.
> > That was a force field, the kind put up inside ships, not used by
drones.
>
> But it shows they have the technology to generate a field that blocks
> KE. Why they don't use it, who knows, the Borg aren't the tactically
> smartest people around. But they definately have the capability.
They have it on ship doesn't mean they have it on drones. Just because
you can equip your ships with nuclear missiles doesn't mean that your
soldiers could lug them around and fire them.
Xtreme Psycho
Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
<37adedff...@news.btinternet.com>...
>>could get through?
>
>
tractor beam.
Xtreme Psycho
Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
>On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 21:46:47 GMT, "Kynes" <ky...@choam.org> wrote:
>
>>Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>
>>> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
shuttle
>>> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>>> >> can.
>>> >
>>> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>>> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
of
>>> >KE.
>>>
>>> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>>> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>>> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>>> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>>> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
>>> there's no limit.
>>
writing
>>it. Once again, your deadpan antics nearly tricked me, Baron. :)
>
>Sod you. Well.....at least I got Strowbridge..... <grin>
>
limit to a Cube's KE shielding. It couldn't survive from the onslaught of
planetary debris after Species 8472 blew up a Borg planet.
Xtreme Psycho
>
>They have it on ship doesn't mean they have it on drones. Just because
>you can equip your ships with nuclear missiles doesn't mean that your
>soldiers could lug them around and fire them.
>
>
>
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
><37adedc2...@news.btinternet.com>...
>>On Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:13:16 +0100, "Alex Sutton" <al...@dial.pipex.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
>>>> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>>>> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>>>> can.
>>>
>>>Why?
>>
>>Because if they can't stop KE there's no reason for them to drop their
>>shields.
>
>Yes their is: They needed the tractor beam to go through.
Nope, tractors go through shields, like phasers do. If the Ent-D fires
a tractor, it goes through the Ent-D's shields, but no other ships.
It's the same with the borg.
Jedi Anger
news:ZWXr3.58435$jl.36...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
No they don't. The soldiers say "Nuke them!" but then, that's just an
expression. It was a rocket team, they said so. If you're talking about
the novel, then yes they do, but then, they're wearing power armor, so
they're more like mechs.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
<xtre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
><37adedff...@news.btinternet.com>...
>>On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:29:56 -0800, Rob Dalton
>><dalto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Wouldn't it have to drop its shields so the tractor beam
>>>could get through?
>>
>>Nope, shields don't have to drop to use a tractor beam.
>>
>Agreed. In BOBW, didn't the Borg Cube had its shields up when it used their
>tractor beam.
Woohoo.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
<xtre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
><37af0dd3...@news.btinternet.com>...
>>On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 21:46:47 GMT, "Kynes" <ky...@choam.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:37adee5c...@news.btinternet.com...
>>>> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
>shuttle
>>>> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>>>> >> can.
>>>> >
>>>> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>>>> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
>of
>>>> >KE.
>>>>
>>>> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>>>> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>>>> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>>>> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>>>> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
>>>> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
>>>> there's no limit.
>>>
>>>I read this an I nearly died of a coronary until I realised who was
>writing
>>>it. Once again, your deadpan antics nearly tricked me, Baron. :)
>>
>>Sod you. Well.....at least I got Strowbridge..... <grin>
>>
>I hate to be the 'devil's advocate' here Baron but in Scorpion it showed the
>limit to a Cube's KE shielding. It couldn't survive from the onslaught of
>planetary debris after Species 8472 blew up a Borg planet.
I was actually joking, Kynes saw through it, Strowbridge didn't <grin>
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 1999 05:29:21 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a
>> >> >> shuttle in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE,
>> >> >> their ships can.
>> >> >
>> >> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>> >> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount
>> >> >of KE.
>> >>
>> >> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>> >> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>> >> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>> >> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>> >> and purposes.
>> >
>> >BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
>> >
>> >And I'll say it again just in case you weren't paying attention.
>> >
>> >BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
>> >
>> >Using this logic we can say a Chewie can defeat the entire ST universe.
>> >Since we've never seen him die, he must me immortal.
>> >
>> >So to summarize.:
>> >
>> >1.) Borg shields can stop a finite amount of KE.
>> >2.) It must be pretty low since the planet debris destroyed several
>> >cubes in Scorpion.
>> >3.) BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! GOTCHA!!! You thoughtI was serious, didn't you?
>> BWAHAHAHAHA.
>
>Considering how many COMPLETE morons there are on the Pro-ST side it's
>hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest stupidity.
Ok, then think about the person posting. Am I more likely to be being
stuipid, or funny......(god, I'm really setting myself up here......)
>BTW, this is VERY similar to a tactic Elim used in one of our arguments.
I think I've just been insulted :)
Strowbridge
>
> > Considering how many COMPLETE morons there are on the Pro-ST side
> > it's hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest
> > stupidity.
> >
> > arguments.
>
> Poe?
I read most of the replies to this and I realize that I've been
misunderstood. I didn't mean I caught Elim using an obviously faulty
line of reasoning and said, 'Just kidding!'
What I meant was, Elim and I had an argument about ECM in ST. He said we
hadn't seen ECM used in ST. I said, 'This is either because ST sensors
are so good they can't be jammed, or ST jamming Technology is SO bad
that they can jam worth squat. We don't have any evidence either way.'
Elim then agreed with me but went on to say, 'Since we have no evidence
either way, I'll assume ST sensors are too good to be jammed.'
In fact we HAVE seen ST sensors jammed, mostly be natural phenomenon.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> >I hate to be the 'devil's advocate' here Baron but in Scorpion it
> >showed the limit to a Cube's KE shielding. It couldn't survive from
> >the onslaught of planetary debris after Species 8472 blew up a Borg
> >planet.
>
> I was actually joking, Kynes saw through it, Strowbridge didn't <grin>
It's not that I'm stupid. I just have a REALLY low opinion of some of
the Pro-ST here.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> >Considering how many COMPLETE morons there are on the Pro-ST side
> >it's hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest
> >stupidity.
>
> stuipid, or funny......(god, I'm really setting myself up here......)
I'll let you write your own witty insult.
> >BTW, this is VERY similar to a tactic Elim used in one of our
> >arguments.
>
> I think I've just been insulted :)
Being called Elim or Timmy or Paul in this NG is the biggest insult I
can think of.
C.S.Strowbridge
HRogge
> Nope, tractors go through shields, like phasers do. If the Ent-D fires
> a tractor, it goes through the Ent-D's shields, but no other ships.
> It's the same with the borg.
Jeff:
"What's about the episode where Q lost his powers and the Ent-D tried
to push a large asteroid. Neither the enlarged warpfield nor
tractorbeam worked when they were forced to turn their shield on.
Henning Rogge ICQ 14862339
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
HRogge
>>Nope, shields don't have to drop to use a tractor beam.
>>
> Agreed. In BOBW, didn't the Borg Cube had its shields up when it used their
> tractor beam.
I think there is an episode where the Ent-D use it's FF to block the
borgs tractor beam ( can't remember the name ).
Robert Williams
Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
<37af1faa...@news.btinternet.com>...
>On Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:11:35 +0100, "Robert Williams" <rs...@tesco.net>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
>><37adedc2...@news.btinternet.com>...
>>>On Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:13:16 +0100, "Alex Sutton" <al...@dial.pipex.com>
>>>
>>>>>>news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
>>>>> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>>>>> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>>>>> can.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Because if they can't stop KE there's no reason for them to drop their
>>>shields.
>>
>>Yes their is: They needed the tractor beam to go through.
>
>a tractor, it goes through the Ent-D's shields, but no other ships.
>It's the same with the borg.
>
Go on, give us some examples.
Talon Karrde
>
> No they don't. The soldiers say "Nuke them!" but then, that's just an
> expression. It was a rocket team, they said so. If you're talking about
> the novel, then yes they do, but then, they're wearing power armor, so
> they're more like mechs.
The hand held rocket launcher is capable of firing small tactical warheads,
In one scene they fire a nuke down a bug hole. The resulting explosion is
huge, much bigger than a conventional warhead could deliver.
Karrde
JONATHAN A WILLIS
> > Destroying a planet takes 1e38 J of energy.
>
> Uhhm, no, that's how much energy the Death Star superlaser would use, not
> accounting for Aldaraan's planetary shield. The debris from the Borg
> planet was moving nowhere as quickly as the debris from Aldaraan.
The Borg planet exploded in a matter of seconds, as did Alderann, so the
S8472 beam was just as powerful. We don't know if Alderann had a shield
up, or for that matter if the Borg world did, so we can't account for
these in our calculations.
> Nope, it's slow moving debris. And the Falcon also encountered expanding
This slow moving debris has to be moving at escape velocity minimum, and
probably much more since the planet was destroyed so rapidly. Read how
the 1e32/1e38 figures were actually calculated and this is obvious.
> planetary debris from Aldaraan. Did the Falcon get destroyed? Nope. And
The Falcon wasn't in orbit at the time, it didn't arrive for hours.
Besides which it was half a dozen planetary diameters away, while the
Borg cubes were in orbit less than 2 PDs away.
> does that have to do with their ability to withstand KE. Don't change the
> subject. And Borg cubes can't stand that much KE, since a cube gets
I'm not. Your trying to argue that being around an exploding planet is a
low-KE event, which is blatantly ridiculous. The Borg ships were hit by
thousands of tons of liquid rock at escape velocity or more, which is a
hell of a lot of kinetic and thermal energy.
> destroyed after an 8472 ship rams them. Solar flares can destroy Borg
> ships. Photon torps can harm Borg ships. Riker and Worf both decided to
> ram Borg ships in desperate situation, if Borg were invincible to KE it
> wouldn't have done any damage.
I'm not arguing the Borg are invincible to KE; I'm arguing that they can
resist it using force-fields.
Both solar flares and pho-torps are irrelevant since these are particle
based not KE. Ramming the Borg hasn't actually been attempted that we
see, except by s8472. S8472 bioships are "the most densely coded
lifeform I've ever seen" according to the holo-doc, moving at quite a
speed, and with the possibility of extremely powerful secondary
explosions, so ramming them is also a high energy event.
Durandal
baron...@yahoo.com (Baron Kenneth von Lowe) wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 21:46:47 GMT, "Kynes" <ky...@choam.org> wrote:
>
> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:37adee5c...@news.btinternet.com...
> >>
> >> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
> >> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
> >> >> can.
> >> >
> >> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount of
> >> >KE.
> >>
> >> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
> >> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
> >> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
> >> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
> >> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
> >> there's no limit.
> >
> >I read this an I nearly died of a coronary until I realised who was writing
> >it. Once again, your deadpan antics nearly tricked me, Baron. :)
>
> Sod you. Well.....at least I got Strowbridge..... <grin>
>
Can we say "BULLSHIT"? Here is what I think happened. Baron makes yet another
one of his ludicrous claims, trying to pull a Lazarus on an already dead
debate. Then, he realizes the stupidity and futility of his claims.
Desperately seeking a way out, he gets one. Someone says that his claim is so
ridiculous, it must be a joke. So, Baron says "Oh, yeah, I wasn't SERIOUS!".
Was the phasers having inertial dampers a joke too? Using this tactic, Baron
avoids any kind of responsiblity for his ludicrous posts. So, once again,
BULLSHIT. Face it, the Borg aren't the big badasses when compared to the
Empire. They are more like the grammar school bully who goes to high-school
and gets the shit kicked out of him for being such an asshole. Baron's excuse
would be like a physics teacher telling his students the Force equals
Acceleration divided by Mass, and then saying "Oh, uhhh, I was, uhhhh,
JOKING, yeah, that's righ
Jedi Anger
> Jedi Anger wrote:
>
> > > Destroying a planet takes 1e38 J of energy.
> >
> > Uhhm, no, that's how much energy the Death Star superlaser would use,
not
> > accounting for Aldaraan's planetary shield. The debris from the Borg
> > planet was moving nowhere as quickly as the debris from Aldaraan.
>
> The Borg planet exploded in a matter of seconds, as did Alderann, so
the
> S8472 beam was just as powerful. We don't know if Alderann had a shield
> up, or for that matter if the Borg world did, so we can't account for
> these in our calculations.
No, in SW it clearly shows a planetary shield but the Borg planet
doesn't.
pic of Aldaraan: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Tech/Beam/DeathStar6.jpg
pic of Borg planet: http://www.execpc.com/~sonn/planetbuster.html
> > Nope, it's slow moving debris. And the Falcon also encountered
expanding
>
> This slow moving debris has to be moving at escape velocity minimum,
and
> probably much more since the planet was destroyed so rapidly. Read how
> the 1e32/1e38 figures were actually calculated and this is obvious.
1e32 would be the minumum, and 1e38 is a conservative number of how much
energy the superlaser had, based on how fast the debris from Aldaraan was
moving.
> > planetary debris from Aldaraan. Did the Falcon get destroyed? Nope.
And
>
> The Falcon wasn't in orbit at the time, it didn't arrive for hours.
But the debris would still be moving at the same speed.
> Besides which it was half a dozen planetary diameters away, while the
> Borg cubes were in orbit less than 2 PDs away.
How do you know? We didn't see where Aldaraan was compared to the
Falcon's position.
> > does that have to do with their ability to withstand KE. Don't change
the
> > subject. And Borg cubes can't stand that much KE, since a cube gets
>
> I'm not. Your trying to argue that being around an exploding planet is
a
> low-KE event, which is blatantly ridiculous.
I never said that. Baron claimed that Borg ships can stand near-infinite
KE (I don't really care if it's a joke or not) so I pointed out that a
sufficient amount of KE can destroy Borg ships.
> The Borg ships were hit by
> thousands of tons of liquid rock at escape velocity or more, which is a
> hell of a lot of kinetic and thermal energy.
This site has some calcs on how much energy there was:
http://users.iafrica.com/x/xr/xris/borg.htm
According to these calcs, the Borg took about as much energy as an ISD
gives in a couple of broadsides.
> > destroyed after an 8472 ship rams them. Solar flares can destroy Borg
> > ships. Photon torps can harm Borg ships. Riker and Worf both decided
to
> > ram Borg ships in desperate situation, if Borg were invincible to KE
it
> > wouldn't have done any damage.
>
> I'm not arguing the Borg are invincible to KE; I'm arguing that they
can
> resist it using force-fields.
Of course.
> Both solar flares and pho-torps are irrelevant since these are particle
> based not KE.
Well, if they had super-strong KE shields, then both shouldn't have gone
through and damaged the hull.
> Ramming the Borg hasn't actually been attempted that we
> see, except by s8472. S8472 bioships are "the most densely coded
> lifeform I've ever seen" according to the holo-doc,
They may be advanced, but doesn't mean that they'll ram for more damage.
> moving at quite a speed,
We can actually see them moving to the ship and ramming it, so it isn't
really that fast.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>>
Including me?
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 1999 19:40:46 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>> >Considering how many COMPLETE morons there are on the Pro-ST side
>> >it's hard to tell the difference between dry wit and honest
>> >stupidity.
>>
>> Ok, then think about the person posting. Am I more likely to be being
>> stuipid, or funny......(god, I'm really setting myself up here......)
>
>I'll let you write your own witty insult.
Ok. Here's the insult:
You are silly Baron.
>> >BTW, this is VERY similar to a tactic Elim used in one of our
>> >arguments.
>>
>> I think I've just been insulted :)
>
>Being called Elim or Timmy or Paul in this NG is the biggest insult I
>can think of.
Ah, but I can think of worse things.....
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
><37af1faa...@news.btinternet.com>...
>>On Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:11:35 +0100, "Robert Williams" <rs...@tesco.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote in message
>>><37adedc2...@news.btinternet.com>...
>>>>On Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:13:16 +0100, "Alex Sutton" <al...@dial.pipex.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:37adb73e...@news.btinternet.com...
>>>>>> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>>>>>> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>>>>>> can.
>>>>>
>>>>>Why?
>>>>
>>>>Because if they can't stop KE there's no reason for them to drop their
>>>>shields.
>>>
>>>Yes their is: They needed the tractor beam to go through.
>>
>>Nope, tractors go through shields, like phasers do. If the Ent-D fires
>>a tractor, it goes through the Ent-D's shields, but no other ships.
>>It's the same with the borg.
>>
>
>Go on, give us some examples.
Ok.....um....Ah! when they towed a freighter through an asteroid field
in one ep, they used the shields to deflect asteroids, but were still
using the tractor beam.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
>Can we say "BULLSHIT"? Here is what I think happened. Baron makes yet another
>one of his ludicrous claims, trying to pull a Lazarus on an already dead
>debate. Then, he realizes the stupidity and futility of his claims.
>Desperately seeking a way out, he gets one. Someone says that his claim is so
>ridiculous, it must be a joke. So, Baron says "Oh, yeah, I wasn't SERIOUS!".
>Was the phasers having inertial dampers a joke too? Using this tactic, Baron
>avoids any kind of responsiblity for his ludicrous posts. So, once again,
>BULLSHIT. Face it, the Borg aren't the big badasses when compared to the
>Empire. They are more like the grammar school bully who goes to high-school
>and gets the shit kicked out of him for being such an asshole. Baron's excuse
>would be like a physics teacher telling his students the Force equals
>Acceleration divided by Mass, and then saying "Oh, uhhh, I was, uhhhh,
>JOKING, yeah, that's righ
No.
Strowbridge
>
> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:14:24 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >I hate to be the 'devil's advocate' here Baron but in Scorpion it
> >> >showed the limit to a Cube's KE shielding. It couldn't survive
> >> >from the onslaught of planetary debris after Species 8472 blew up
> >> >a Borg planet.
> >>
> >> I was actually joking, Kynes saw through it, Strowbridge didn't
> >> <grin>
> >
> >It's not that I'm stupid. I just have a REALLY low opinion of some of
> >the Pro-ST here.
>
> Including me?
I thought, 'Maybe stupidity is contagious.'
C.S.Strowbridge
JONATHAN A WILLIS
> But the debris would still be moving at the same speed.
Same speed yes, but it would be much more spread out, and much less
would impact on the Falcon.
> > Besides which it was half a dozen planetary diameters away, while the
> > Borg cubes were in orbit less than 2 PDs away.
> How do you know? We didn't see where Aldaraan was compared to the
> Falcon's position.
Stated in the ANH novelisation.
> I never said that. Baron claimed that Borg ships can stand near-infinite
> KE (I don't really care if it's a joke or not) so I pointed out that a
> sufficient amount of KE can destroy Borg ships.
Obviously, but this is true of all ships in both ST and SW. This has
been seen for ISDs, Executor, and for several ships in Trek.
> This site has some calcs on how much energy there was:
> http://users.iafrica.com/x/xr/xris/borg.htm
> According to these calcs, the Borg took about as much energy as an ISD
> gives in a couple of broadsides.
Based on what estimate of ISD broadside? Estimates vary by a factor of a
million or so, depending on whether you consider asteroid destruction,
BDZ, or some other source.
> They may be advanced, but doesn't mean that they'll ram for more damage.
How advanced they are is irrelevant. It was a "densely coded lifeform",
ie it was dense, ie it would have a significant mass despite being much
smaller than the Borg cube.
sea...@my-deja.com
> Their cubes can be destroyed by slow moving debris from exploding
> planets.
JA...come on, man. You're a contributor to Mike's site; I expect
more from you than these kinds of misrepresentations.
No. one: we don't know the state of said cubes' defensive systems.
Could've been active, or could've been damaged by the bioships.
No. two: the debris was not slow-moving. It was moving outward
at a rate obviously higher than the gravitational binding energy
of the planet would allow (escape velocity). Couple that with
the huge energy blast wave we saw.
None of this is grounds for establishing Borg shielding limitations
against KE. We can get into it further if necessary, but I hope
you'll be objective about it and consider all of the possibilities.
>
> > Whether they need to adapt or not isn't really relevant, although
given
> > how they react to other threats it seems logical they would only
use KE
> > shields after suffering damage from KE.
> >
> > They can even use KE shields on
> > an infantry level; Worf bounces off a field when he fist encounters
> > Picard/Locutus.
>
> That was a force field, the kind put up inside ships, not used by
drones.
>
That's right.
Will
sea...@my-deja.com
"Jedi Anger" <jedi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> JONATHAN A WILLIS <ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in message
> > Jedi Anger wrote:
> >
> > > > But the Borg can resist some amount of KE, how much we don't
know.
> > > Their cubes can be destroyed by slow moving debris from exploding
> > > planets.
> >
>
> Uhhm, no, that's how much energy the Death Star superlaser would use,
not
> accounting for Aldaraan's planetary shield. The debris from the Borg
> planet was moving nowhere as quickly as the debris from Aldaraan.
I agree with this, but it still fails to take into account the
awesome amount of energy we saw released in Scorpion.
> > Granted only a tiny fraction
> > of that will be delivered to the Borg cube, but its still a hell of
a
> > lot of energy. Your 'slow moving' debris is actually liquid,
possibly
> > even gaseous rock, and quite a bit of it too.
>
> Nope, it's slow moving debris. And the Falcon also encountered
expanding
> planetary debris from Aldaraan. Did the Falcon get destroyed? Nope.
This is rather silly, Jedi. The debris was obviously moving fast
enough to keep the planet from falling back together, so it was
in fact moving very fast. Couple that with the energy sphere,
and what the Falcon went through becomes a wild analogy.
And
> the planet destroying beam didn't actually hit the cubes, what the
hell
> does that have to do with their ability to withstand KE. Don't change
the
> subject. And Borg cubes can't stand that much KE, since a cube gets
> destroyed after an 8472 ship rams them.
Errhm...have you considered that the *power systems* of those two
ships, which should both be very powerful, had something to do
with the explosion? That 8472 ship has enough firepower to deal
out some very serious damage; its power sources must also be
very, very advanced. If an unshielded ship crashes into a vessel
that has several tons of AM (or 8472's better equivalent) fuel
at high speed, it's going to be a bad day for them, yes.
Solar flares can destroy Borg
> ships.
NO--do your research first. That ship was a gigantic BOMB.
That's right, a bomb. Look at the display screens in Scorpion II,
when Seven discusses releasing a mass-destruction weapon. The
design of it and Lore's ship is *exactly the same*. It is not
a representation of what Borg ships are capable of.
> Photon torps can harm Borg ships.
Hundreds upon thousands of them *finally* can, yes, that's true.
Riker and Worf both decided to
> ram Borg ships in desperate situation, if Borg were invincible to KE
it
> wouldn't have done any damage.
You're twisting his words, Jedi...no one ever said "invincible" that
I know of. Plus you're again forgetting that ramming a Borg ship
would have a tendency to, oh, say, *have a massive core breach*!?
The rammer's KE isn't the only energy we're talking about. The
E-D and Defiant weren't just big rocks that were going to be
thrown at the cube.
>
> > > > They can even use KE shields on
> > > > an infantry level; Worf bounces off a field when he fist
encounters
> > > > Picard/Locutus.
> > > That was a force field, the kind put up inside ships, not used by
> drones.
> >
> > But it shows they have the technology to generate a field that
blocks
> > KE. Why they don't use it, who knows, the Borg aren't the tactically
> > smartest people around. But they definately have the capability.
>
> They have it on ship doesn't mean they have it on drones. Just because
> you can equip your ships with nuclear missiles doesn't mean that your
> soldiers could lug them around and fire them.
That's true, of course, and a nice analogy...but what proof is
there that drones *don't* have KE shielding? I've yet to see
anything logical to this effect. Any help would be appreciated.
Michael January
von Lowe) wrote:
>
>Ok.....um....Ah! when they towed a freighter through an asteroid field
>in one ep, they used the shields to deflect asteroids, but were still
>using the tractor beam.
>
I have a few problems with that.
The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
which means your argument is moot.
------------------------
Michael January
xr...@iafrica.com
------------------------
http://users.iafrica.com/x/xr/xris/index.htm
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
>In article <37af0dd3...@news.btinternet.com>,
> baron...@yahoo.com (Baron Kenneth von Lowe) wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 21:46:47 GMT, "Kynes" <ky...@choam.org> wrote:
>>
>> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:37adee5c...@news.btinternet.com...
>> >> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In Dark Frontier, a Borg sphere drops its shields to tractor a shuttle
>> >> >> in. This implies, that even if drones can't adapt to KE, their ships
>> >> >> can.
>> >> >
>> >> >NO! No it does not. It implies that their shields can stop a finite
>> >> >amount of KE. It doesn't even imply that they can stop a large amount of
>> >> >KE.
>> >>
>> >> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>> >> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>> >> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>> >> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>> >> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
>> >> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
>> >> there's no limit.
>> >
>> >I read this an I nearly died of a coronary until I realised who was writing
>> >it. Once again, your deadpan antics nearly tricked me, Baron. :)
>>
>> Sod you. Well.....at least I got Strowbridge..... <grin>
>Can we say "BULLSHIT"? Here is what I think happened. Baron makes yet another
>one of his ludicrous claims, trying to pull a Lazarus on an already dead
>debate. Then, he realizes the stupidity and futility of his claims.
>Desperately seeking a way out, he gets one. Someone says that his claim is so
>ridiculous, it must be a joke. So, Baron says "Oh, yeah, I wasn't SERIOUS!".
>Was the phasers having inertial dampers a joke too? Using this tactic, Baron
>avoids any kind of responsiblity for his ludicrous posts. So, once again,
>BULLSHIT. Face it, the Borg aren't the big badasses when compared to the
>Empire. They are more like the grammar school bully who goes to high-school
>and gets the shit kicked out of him for being such an asshole. Baron's excuse
>would be like a physics teacher telling his students the Force equals
>Acceleration divided by Mass, and then saying "Oh, uhhh, I was, uhhhh,
>JOKING, yeah, that's righ
For the record my claims are never ludicrous......except for the
inertial dampeners in phasers guff....everything I say is generally
well thought out and backed up by evidence, it's just that generally
there's more evidence against what I say than for it. And BTW, I have
a record for being a bit of a joker.....it's in my nature, and I
thought it'd be fun to laugh at Strowbridge for a change..... and BTW,
F=m/a is correct......oops, I mean.....um...oh, I was joking...... :-)
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>>
<flicks through medical textbooks> Nope.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
January) wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:49:29 GMT, baron...@yahoo.com (Baron Kenneth
>von Lowe) wrote:
>
>>
>>Ok.....um....Ah! when they towed a freighter through an asteroid field
>>in one ep, they used the shields to deflect asteroids, but were still
>>using the tractor beam.
>>
>
>I have a few problems with that.
>
>The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
>episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
>shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
>case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
>which means your argument is moot.
Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
while their own were up.
Wayne Poe
On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 02:33:53 GMT, Durandal <Duran...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Sod you. Well.....at least I got Strowbridge..... <grin>
>Can we say "BULLSHIT"? Here is what I think happened. Baron makes yet another
>one of his ludicrous claims, trying to pull a Lazarus on an already dead
>debate. Then, he realizes the stupidity and futility of his claims.
>Desperately seeking a way out, he gets one. Someone says that his claim is so
>ridiculous, it must be a joke. So, Baron says "Oh, yeah, I wasn't SERIOUS!".
Wow...who does THAT sound like?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Visit the Ultimate Starwars vs.Startrek Database
http://h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html *Comparative analyses
lo...@h4h.com *Pictures and .wavs
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Wayne Poe
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Michael January wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:49:29 GMT, baron...@yahoo.com (Baron Kenneth
> von Lowe) wrote:
> >Ok.....um....Ah! when they towed a freighter through an asteroid field
> >in one ep, they used the shields to deflect asteroids, but were still
> >using the tractor beam.
> I have a few problems with that.
> The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
> episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
> shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
> case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
> which means your argument is moot.
Correct.
Wayne Poe
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
> >The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
> >episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
> >shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
> >case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
> >which means your argument is moot.
> Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
> while their own were up.
Not Federation tech. Prove Borg shields were up. A shuttlecraft is able to
sidle right up to it later, during an attack. Janeway beams a torp on a
borg ship during an attack.
Alex Sutton
> > >episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
> > >shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
> > >case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
> > >which means your argument is moot.
>
> > Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
> > while their own were up.
>
> Not Federation tech. Prove Borg shields were up. A shuttlecraft is able to
> sidle right up to it later, during an attack. Janeway beams a torp on a
> borg ship during an attack.
But in BOBW, didn't a shuttle just pass through the Borg shields as if they weren't there?
Michael January
von Lowe) wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:39:37 GMT, xr...@removethis.iafrica.com (Michael
>January) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:49:29 GMT, baron...@yahoo.com (Baron Kenneth
>>von Lowe) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Ok.....um....Ah! when they towed a freighter through an asteroid field
>>>in one ep, they used the shields to deflect asteroids, but were still
>>>using the tractor beam.
>>>
>>
>>I have a few problems with that.
>>
>>The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
>>episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
>>shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
>>case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
>>which means your argument is moot.
>
>Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
>while their own were up.
>
No, the Borg shields were not up, because they hadn't adapted to the
E-D's weapons yet.
Or am I thinking of Q Who?
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
>
>On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>
>> >The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
>> >episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
>> >shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
>> >case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
>> >which means your argument is moot.
>
>> Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
>> while their own were up.
>
>Not Federation tech. Prove Borg shields were up. A shuttlecraft is able to
>sidle right up to it later, during an attack. Janeway beams a torp on a
>borg ship during an attack.
Fine, I'll find another example.......What about the TNG ep 'The naked
now' (or time, I can't remember which) where they had their shields
up, a big rock was heading for them, but they used an inverted tractor
beam to repel another ship into its path.
--
Visit my Domination Web Shite at:
http://members.tripod.com/Baronlowe/dominat.htm
(It's a ST vs SW Fanfic BTW)
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
<al...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>> > >The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
>> > >episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
>> > >shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
>> > >case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
>> > >which means your argument is moot.
>>
>> > Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
>> > while their own were up.
>>
>> Not Federation tech. Prove Borg shields were up. A shuttlecraft is able to
>> sidle right up to it later, during an attack. Janeway beams a torp on a
>> borg ship during an attack.
>
>But in BOBW, didn't a shuttle just pass through the Borg shields as if they weren't there?
>
>
Yes......
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
January) wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:22:51 GMT, baron...@yahoo.com (Baron Kenneth
>von Lowe) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:39:37 GMT, xr...@removethis.iafrica.com (Michael
>>January) wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:49:29 GMT, baron...@yahoo.com (Baron Kenneth
>>>von Lowe) wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ok.....um....Ah! when they towed a freighter through an asteroid field
>>>>in one ep, they used the shields to deflect asteroids, but were still
>>>>using the tractor beam.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I have a few problems with that.
>>>
>>>The E was being contaminated by radiation from the freighter in this
>>>episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
>>>shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
>>>case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
>>>which means your argument is moot.
>>
>>Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
>>while their own were up.
>>
>
>No, the Borg shields were not up, because they hadn't adapted to the
>E-D's weapons yet.
>
>Or am I thinking of Q Who?
Nope, you're right...
Wayne Poe
On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
> >> Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
> >> while their own were up.
> >Not Federation tech. Prove Borg shields were up. A shuttlecraft is able to
> >sidle right up to it later, during an attack. Janeway beams a torp on a
> >borg ship during an attack.
> Fine, I'll find another example.......What about the TNG ep 'The naked
> now' (or time, I can't remember which) where they had their shields
> up, a big rock was heading for them, but they used an inverted tractor
> beam to repel another ship into its path.
That would be something called a "pressor" beam. I think Kirk used one
once. But this has nothing to do with what we're talking about above. I
think the term "pressor beam" (opposite of tractor) may come from pre-TNG
Enterprise tech files. You'd have to ask Ryan McReynolds to be sure,
because I am not!
Alex Sutton
Baron Kenneth von Lowe <baron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:37b72b48...@news.btinternet.com...
> >> > >episode, and somebody (Ali I think) told me that it was because the
> >> > >shields had been extended to include the freighter. If that is the
> >> > >case, then the tractor beam did not have to go through the shields,
> >> > >which means your argument is moot.
> >>
> >> > while their own were up.
> >>
> >> Not Federation tech. Prove Borg shields were up. A shuttlecraft is able to
> >> sidle right up to it later, during an attack. Janeway beams a torp on a
> >> borg ship during an attack.
> >
> >
> >
> Yes......
Has this already been said?
Jedi Anger
> Jedi Anger wrote:
> > But the debris would still be moving at the same speed.
>
> Same speed yes, but it would be much more spread out, and much less
> would impact on the Falcon.
True.
> > > Besides which it was half a dozen planetary diameters away, while the
> > > Borg cubes were in orbit less than 2 PDs away.
> > How do you know? We didn't see where Aldaraan was compared to the
> > Falcon's position.
>
> Stated in the ANH novelisation.
OIC.
> > I never said that. Baron claimed that Borg ships can stand near-infinite
> > KE (I don't really care if it's a joke or not) so I pointed out that a
> > sufficient amount of KE can destroy Borg ships.
>
> Obviously, but this is true of all ships in both ST and SW. This has
> been seen for ISDs, Executor, and for several ships in Trek.
But Baron claimed that the amount of KE they could stand was near-infinite.
>>>> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>>>> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>>>> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>>>> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>>>> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
>>>> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
>>>> there's no limit.
> > This site has some calcs on how much energy there was:
> > http://users.iafrica.com/x/xr/xris/borg.htm
> > According to these calcs, the Borg took about as much energy as an ISD
> > gives in a couple of broadsides.
>
> Based on what estimate of ISD broadside? Estimates vary by a factor of a
> million or so, depending on whether you consider asteroid destruction,
> BDZ, or some other source.
Estimates based on BDZ, on the same site.
> > They may be advanced, but doesn't mean that they'll ram for more damage.
>
> How advanced they are is irrelevant. It was a "densely coded lifeform",
> ie it was dense, ie it would have a significant mass despite being much
> smaller than the Borg cube.
Errr, no, they said the DNA was densely coded. Even if we assume that the
DNA was 10 times longer or something, that's only a single molecule in every
cell. And the ship is organic, so it's made from cells. The DNA may be
densely coded, but cells aren't as dense as say, metal.
Jedi Anger
<sea...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7otp32$hhg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > Their cubes can be destroyed by slow moving debris from exploding
> > planets.
>
> more from you than these kinds of misrepresentations.
>
> No. one: we don't know the state of said cubes' defensive systems.
> Could've been active, or could've been damaged by the bioships.
>
> No. two: the debris was not slow-moving. It was moving outward
> at a rate obviously higher than the gravitational binding energy
> of the planet would allow (escape velocity). Couple that with
> the huge energy blast wave we saw.
>
> None of this is grounds for establishing Borg shielding limitations
> against KE. We can get into it further if necessary, but I hope
> you'll be objective about it and consider all of the possibilities.
Ok fine.
> >
> > > Whether they need to adapt or not isn't really relevant, although
> given
> > > how they react to other threats it seems logical they would only
> use KE
> > > shields after suffering damage from KE.
> > >
> > > They can even use KE shields on
> > > an infantry level; Worf bounces off a field when he fist encounters
> > > Picard/Locutus.
> >
> > That was a force field, the kind put up inside ships, not used by
> drones.
> >
>
> That's right.
Yes, I'm always right.
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
>
>On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
>
>> >> Fine, in BOBW the Borg used a tractor beam to drain the Ent-Ds shields
>> >> while their own were up.
>
>> >Not Federation tech. Prove Borg shields were up. A shuttlecraft is able to
>> >sidle right up to it later, during an attack. Janeway beams a torp on a
>> >borg ship during an attack.
>
>> Fine, I'll find another example.......What about the TNG ep 'The naked
>> now' (or time, I can't remember which) where they had their shields
>> up, a big rock was heading for them, but they used an inverted tractor
>> beam to repel another ship into its path.
>
>That would be something called a "pressor" beam. I think Kirk used one
>once. But this has nothing to do with what we're talking about above. I
>think the term "pressor beam" (opposite of tractor) may come from pre-TNG
>Enterprise tech files. You'd have to ask Ryan McReynolds to be sure,
>because I am not!
<shakes head> Wesley took a tractor beam, and reversed it so it
repelled things.
Strowbridge
>
> On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:29:28 -0700, Wayne Poe <lo...@h4h.com> wrote:
>
> >> Fine, I'll find another example.......What about the TNG ep 'The
> >> inverted tractor beam to repel another ship into its path.
> >
> >That would be something called a "pressor" beam. I think Kirk used
> >one once. But this has nothing to do with what we're talking about
> >above. I think the term "pressor beam" (opposite of tractor) may come
> >from pre-TNG Enterprise tech files. You'd have to ask Ryan McReynolds
> >to be sure, because I am not!
>
> <shakes head> Wesley took a tractor beam, and reversed it so it
> repelled things.
He'd didn't just reverse it, he modified it.
C.S.Strowbridge
Jedi Anger
> In article <7ook9p$3kr$1...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Jedi Anger" <jedi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Jedi Anger wrote:
> > >
> > > > > But the Borg can resist some amount of KE, how much we don't
> know.
> > > > planets.
> > >
> >
> > Uhhm, no, that's how much energy the Death Star superlaser would use,
> not
> > accounting for Aldaraan's planetary shield. The debris from the Borg
> > planet was moving nowhere as quickly as the debris from Aldaraan.
>
> I agree with this, but it still fails to take into account the
> awesome amount of energy we saw released in Scorpion.
Certainly not as much as released by the DS.
> > > Granted only a tiny fraction
> > > of that will be delivered to the Borg cube, but its still a hell of
> a
> > > lot of energy. Your 'slow moving' debris is actually liquid,
> possibly
> > > even gaseous rock, and quite a bit of it too.
> >
> > Nope, it's slow moving debris. And the Falcon also encountered
> expanding
> > planetary debris from Aldaraan. Did the Falcon get destroyed? Nope.
>
> This is rather silly, Jedi. The debris was obviously moving fast
> enough to keep the planet from falling back together, so it was
> in fact moving very fast. Couple that with the energy sphere,
> and what the Falcon went through becomes a wild analogy.
A better analogy would be the exploding DS 2 then, since the Falcon was less
than a kilometer away when it exploded, AND there was a shockwave there. And
the Falcon survived, did it not?
> And
> > the planet destroying beam didn't actually hit the cubes, what the
> hell
> > does that have to do with their ability to withstand KE. Don't change
> the
> > subject. And Borg cubes can't stand that much KE, since a cube gets
> > destroyed after an 8472 ship rams them.
>
> Errhm...have you considered that the *power systems* of those two
> ships, which should both be very powerful, had something to do
> with the explosion? That 8472 ship has enough firepower to deal
> out some very serious damage; its power sources must also be
> very, very advanced.
According to Star Trek the Magazine, 8472 ships use anti-matter. Not more
advanced than the Feds in power-generation. Certainly not more advanced than
the Empire.
> If an unshielded ship crashes into a vessel
> that has several tons of AM (or 8472's better equivalent) fuel
> at high speed, it's going to be a bad day for them, yes.
How do you know the Borg ship was unshielded? Where's your proof for that?
Or are you just saying?
> Solar flares can destroy Borg
> > ships.
>
> NO--do your research first. That ship was a gigantic BOMB.
> That's right, a bomb. Look at the display screens in Scorpion II,
> when Seven discusses releasing a mass-destruction weapon. The
> design of it and Lore's ship is *exactly the same*. It is not
> a representation of what Borg ships are capable of.
Sheesh! How was I supposed to know that there was some screen had a ship
design on it? Was never used, never mentioned, never seen, and only exists
on some display. And until I actually see it, I'm not going to take your
word for it.
> > Photon torps can harm Borg ships.
>
> Hundreds upon thousands of them *finally* can, yes, that's true.
And where does that hundreds of thousands numbers come from? I've never seen
anything say that it took hundreds of thousands of torps. In First Contact,
we see that the battle had been going on for some time yes, but between the
time the battle started, and the time that they got there, which was a few
hours, or a few days at most, the torps were already able to damage the
Cube.
> Riker and Worf both decided to
> > ram Borg ships in desperate situation, if Borg were invincible to KE
> it
> > wouldn't have done any damage.
>
> You're twisting his words, Jedi...no one ever said "invincible" that
> I know of.
>>>> Why does it imply that? It shows that their shields can stop KE. We
>>>> don't see a limit to the amount of KE they can take, so we have to
>>>> assume it has an limit. Now, obviously it will have a limit, but as we
>>>> don't know what it is, we have to take it as infinite for all intents
>>>> and purposes. If you can show me proof of a limit on their KE
>>>> ablility, then show me it, otherwise, logically, we have to assume
>>>> there's no limit.
So, what were you saying about me twisting words?
> Plus you're again forgetting that ramming a Borg ship
> would have a tendency to, oh, say, *have a massive core breach*!?
> The rammer's KE isn't the only energy we're talking about. The
> E-D and Defiant weren't just big rocks that were going to be
> thrown at the cube.
If they wanted to do damage from a warp core breach, they should have
self-destructed.
> >
> > > > > They can even use KE shields on
> > > > > an infantry level; Worf bounces off a field when he fist
> encounters
> > > > > Picard/Locutus.
> > > > That was a force field, the kind put up inside ships, not used by
> > drones.
> > >
> > > But it shows they have the technology to generate a field that
> blocks
> > > KE. Why they don't use it, who knows, the Borg aren't the tactically
> > > smartest people around. But they definately have the capability.
> >
> > They have it on ship doesn't mean they have it on drones. Just because
> > you can equip your ships with nuclear missiles doesn't mean that your
> > soldiers could lug them around and fire them.
>
> That's true, of course, and a nice analogy...but what proof is
> there that drones *don't* have KE shielding? I've yet to see
> anything logical to this effect. Any help would be appreciated.
The many, many, many instances in First Contact where Borg were killed by KE
attacks, perhaps? The fact that even though more Borg were killed by KE than
with phasers and they STILL didn't use them perhaps? The fact that 8472
fights hand to hand and mauled up the Borg and the Borg didn't use any KE
shields? That too, maybe? The fact that the 21st century drone shoved them
around and used his own KE shields, but the regular drones didn't have any
to fight back?
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
But it was still basically a tractor beam.
Strowbridge
>
> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:57:58 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >> Fine, I'll find another example.......What about the TNG ep 'The
> >> >> Naked Now' (or time, I can't remember which) where they had
> >> >> their shields up, a big rock was heading for them, but they used
> >> >> an inverted tractor beam to repel another ship into its path.
> >> >
> >> >That would be something called a "pressor" beam. I think Kirk used
> >> >one once. But this has nothing to do with what we're talking about
> >> >above. I think the term "pressor beam" (opposite of tractor) may
> >> >come from pre-TNG Enterprise tech files. You'd have to ask Ryan
> >> >McReynolds to be sure, because I am not!
> >>
> >> <shakes head> Wesley took a tractor beam, and reversed it so it
> >> repelled things.
> >
> >He'd didn't just reverse it, he modified it.
>
> But it was still basically a tractor beam.
We don't know what modifications were done, so we can't use this example
to determine whatever it is we were trying to figure out.
BTW, I was kidding, I know exactly what we are talking about. "Can
tractor beams go through shields?"
C.S.Strowbridge
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
It was a tractor beam emmiter, he didn't change the components, only
the operation of it, so it was basically a backwards tractor beam,
that's why they were able to make software modifications on the ships
tractor, and make it a repulsor beam.
>BTW, I was kidding, I know exactly what we are talking about. "Can
>tractor beams go through shields?"
>
>C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:41:55 GMT, Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> Fine, I'll find another example.......What about the TNG ep
> >> >> >> 'The Naked Now' (or time, I can't remember which) where they
> >> >> >> had their shields up, a big rock was heading for them, but
> >> >> >> they used an inverted tractor beam to repel another ship into
> >> >> >> its path.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >That would be something called a "pressor" beam. I think Kirk
> >> >> >used one once. But this has nothing to do with what we're
> >> >> >talking about above. I think the term "pressor beam" (opposite
> >> >> >of tractor) may come from pre-TNG Enterprise tech files. You'd
> >> >> >have to ask Ryan McReynolds to be sure, because I am not!
> >> >>
> >> >> <shakes head> Wesley took a tractor beam, and reversed it so it
> >> >> repelled things.
> >> >
> >> >He'd didn't just reverse it, he modified it.
> >>
> >> But it was still basically a tractor beam.
> >
> >We don't know what modifications were done, so we can't use this
> >example to determine whatever it is we were trying to figure out.
>
> It was a tractor beam emmiter, he didn't change the components, only
> the operation of it, so it was basically a backwards tractor beam,
> that's why they were able to make software modifications on the ships
> tractor, and make it a repulsor beam.
In ST they can recalibrate the deflector dish to emit high frequency
cheese burgers, I doubt Wesley couldn't change what the tractor beam
emitter was emitting.
C.S.Strowbridge
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
But he only made software modifications.
Jonathan A Willis
> > I agree with this, but it still fails to take into account the
> > awesome amount of energy we saw released in Scorpion.
>
> Certainly not as much as released by the DS.
True, so a DS could destroy a Borg cube.
> A better analogy would be the exploding DS 2 then, since the Falcon was less
> than a kilometer away when it exploded, AND there was a shockwave there. And
> the Falcon survived, did it not?
The shockwave there was a planar ring, so its unlikely that the Falcon
was in its path. The Falcon was only a small distance away, but it was
already at quite a speed and accelerating, so it could easily have
outrun most of the debris.
> According to Star Trek the Magazine, 8472 ships use anti-matter. Not more
> advanced than the Feds in power-generation. Certainly not more advanced than
> the Empire.
Normal antimatter would be insufficient to create a planet destroying
beam even for a DS sized construct. Ships the size of s8472 must either
use incredibly dense antimatter or some other power source entirely.
Either way, thats a lot more powerful than standard Trek power systems,
and more than usually estimated for an ISD.
> Sheesh! How was I supposed to know that there was some screen had a ship
> design on it? Was never used, never mentioned, never seen, and only exists
> on some display. And until I actually see it, I'm not going to take your
> word for it.
Watch Scoprion II, during 7o9's discussion of building a weapon. The
proposed 5 million isoton bomb had exactly the same design as Lore's
Borg ship.
> And where does that hundreds of thousands numbers come from? I've never seen
> anything say that it took hundreds of thousands of torps. In First Contact,
> we see that the battle had been going on for some time yes, but between the
> time the battle started, and the time that they got there, which was a few
> hours, or a few days at most, the torps were already able to damage the
> Cube.
50 starships firing a torpedo every 2 seconds for 6 hours is 90,000
torpedos. Trek ships usually fire torpedos in bursts, and
phasers/quantum torpedos/other weapons were used as well.
> If they wanted to do damage from a warp core breach, they should have
> self-destructed.
And do only a fraction of their potential damage in a burst? No, best
way to do it was to ram, that way they get at least some KE and the full
effect of the core breach.
> The many, many, many instances in First Contact where Borg were killed by KE
> attacks, perhaps? The fact that even though more Borg were killed by KE than
3 or 4. Two of those with holographics bullets that may or may not have
actually been KE (more likely force-fields from the holodeck), and a
couple from Data or Worf. Nobody else stood a chance in hand to hand.
The Borg want to assimilate people, and they can't do that if they have
a field up that stops them touching.
> with phasers and they STILL didn't use them perhaps? The fact that 8472
> fights hand to hand and mauled up the Borg and the Borg didn't use any KE
> shields? That too, maybe? The fact that the 21st century drone shoved them
S8472 utterly mauled the Borg cubes and planets. They didn't need to use
hand to hand.
Jedi Anger
news:37BF6E9D...@student.canterbury.ac.nz...
> Jedi Anger wrote:
> > > I agree with this, but it still fails to take into account the
> > > awesome amount of energy we saw released in Scorpion.
> >
> > Certainly not as much as released by the DS.
>
So could a Sun Crusher. So could a Galaxy Gun. So could an Eclipse. So could
a Sovereign. So could a Pulsar Station. So could a Tarkin. So could a
Phantom. So could a couple of ISDs.
> > A better analogy would be the exploding DS 2 then, since the Falcon was
less
> > than a kilometer away when it exploded, AND there was a shockwave there.
And
> > the Falcon survived, did it not?
>
> The shockwave there was a planar ring, so its unlikely that the Falcon
> was in its path. The Falcon was only a small distance away, but it was
> already at quite a speed and accelerating, so it could easily have
> outrun most of the debris.
No, watch the movie. When we see the Falcon going out of the shaft, we see
that the explosion is moving faster than the Falcon.
> > According to Star Trek the Magazine, 8472 ships use anti-matter. Not
more
> > advanced than the Feds in power-generation. Certainly not more advanced
than
> > the Empire.
>
> Normal antimatter would be insufficient to create a planet destroying
> beam even for a DS sized construct. Ships the size of s8472 must either
> use incredibly dense antimatter or some other power source entirely.
> Either way, thats a lot more powerful than standard Trek power systems,
> and more than usually estimated for an ISD.
No, just read the damn mag. It's antimatter. And it's not a
planet-destroying beam. And you have no proof that it generates more power
than an ISD. They had to combine with this ship that was different from the
rest. If it was 1/9 as powerful as the planet-destroying beam, they wouldn't
have needed to go into formation.
> > Sheesh! How was I supposed to know that there was some screen had a ship
> > design on it? Was never used, never mentioned, never seen, and only
exists
> > on some display. And until I actually see it, I'm not going to take your
> > word for it.
>
> Watch Scoprion II, during 7o9's discussion of building a weapon. The
> proposed 5 million isoton bomb had exactly the same design as Lore's
> Borg ship.
Didn't see it.
> > And where does that hundreds of thousands numbers come from? I've never
seen
> > anything say that it took hundreds of thousands of torps. In First
Contact,
> > we see that the battle had been going on for some time yes, but between
the
> > time the battle started, and the time that they got there, which was a
few
> > hours, or a few days at most, the torps were already able to damage the
> > Cube.
>
> 50 starships firing a torpedo every 2 seconds for 6 hours is 90,000
> torpedos. Trek ships usually fire torpedos in bursts, and
> phasers/quantum torpedos/other weapons were used as well.
In the battle scene, starships were certainly not firing torps every 2
seconds. Ditto for Wolf 359.
> > If they wanted to do damage from a warp core breach, they should have
> > self-destructed.
>
> And do only a fraction of their potential damage in a burst? No, best
> way to do it was to ram, that way they get at least some KE and the full
> effect of the core breach.
And if the ship got vaporized on the KE shields, then it wouldn't explode,
would it.
> > The many, many, many instances in First Contact where Borg were killed
by KE
> > attacks, perhaps? The fact that even though more Borg were killed by KE
than
>
> 3 or 4.
1 by Worf's bashing it with the butt of a rifle.
2 headlocked by Data.
3,4,5 by Data tossing the drone's body.
6 by Worf bashing some more
7,8 by Tommy Gun
9,10,11 by Data escaping and bashing
12 by Worf's knife.
Might have been more, but I don't want to check now. But, I have three or
four times more than you claimed.
Plus, Data was able to grab the Queen.
Plus, Picard told them to fight hand to hand
Plus, Hawk was able to hit a drone with KE shield.
Plus, in BoBW, people grappled with Borg in BoBW with no KE shields.
Plus, 8472 mauled craploads of Borg and they don't use weapons, according to
Star Trek Magazine.
> Two of those with holographics bullets that may or may not have
> actually been KE (more likely force-fields from the holodeck),
Anything that interacts with beings is replicated.
> and a
> couple from Data or Worf. Nobody else stood a chance in hand to hand.
Worf is three times stronger than a human. SW Imperial war droids are much
stronger. So are wookies. So are Barabels. So are Trandoshans. So are Talz.
So are Noghri.
> The Borg want to assimilate people, and they can't do that if they have
> a field up that stops them touching.
You're saying that ST is so primitive they don't have one-way shields like
SW?
> > with phasers and they STILL didn't use them perhaps? The fact that 8472
> > fights hand to hand and mauled up the Borg and the Borg didn't use any
KE
> > shields? That too, maybe? The fact that the 21st century drone shoved
them
>
> S8472 utterly mauled the Borg cubes and planets. They didn't need to use
> hand to hand.
But they did, when they boarded the cubes. 8472 doesn't use weapons.
Strowbridge
Fine, in ST they can use software modification to recalibrate the
deflector dish to emit high frequency cheese burgers, I doubt Wesley
couldn't change what the tractor beam emitter was emitting.
C.S.Strowbridge
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
wrote:
>Baron Kenneth von Lowe wrote:
Is that an admission that ST can do anything?
Jedi Anger
> Jedi Anger wrote:
>
> > So could a Sun Crusher. So could a Galaxy Gun. So could an Eclipse. So
could
> > a Sovereign. So could a Pulsar Station. So could a Tarkin. So could a
> > Phantom.
>
> planet would be able to destroy a Borg cube.
>
> > So could a couple of ISDs.
>
> This I'll dispute. ISD firepower is millions of times less than any of
> the above, it doesn't belong in the same catagory. The Borg can
> withstand 1e28 J hits (they can withstand s8472, see below for
> calculating s8472 firepower) which is far more than an ISD broadside.
Somewhere between between 3.05e26 Joules and 6.53e24 Joules (based on the
planetary debris) actually. From Mike's page: Using conservative numbers,
that means between 2.2 and 103 broadsides to make a Cube go boom. Using more
realistic numbers, it'll take 1/3 of a broadside to 14 broadsides. Using the
most conservative estimate, it'll still take 5 ISDs 21 broadsides to destroy
a Cube. Turbolasers fire every two seconds, so it'll take less than a
minute. That's using the most conservative numbers, mind you.
> > No, watch the movie. When we see the Falcon going out of the shaft, we
see
> > that the explosion is moving faster than the Falcon.
>
> Watch the movie yourself. It takes a second or two after the Falcon gets
> clear before the DS completely exploded.
And we see the Falcon is still near the DS when it explodes. And there's the
shockwave as well.
> > > Normal antimatter would be insufficient to create a planet destroying
> > > beam even for a DS sized construct. Ships the size of s8472 must
either
> > > use incredibly dense antimatter or some other power source entirely.
> > > Either way, thats a lot more powerful than standard Trek power
systems,
> > > and more than usually estimated for an ISD.
> >
> > No, just read the damn mag. It's antimatter. And it's not a
> > planet-destroying beam. And you have no proof that it generates more
power
> > than an ISD. They had to combine with this ship that was different from
the
> > rest. If it was 1/9 as powerful as the planet-destroying beam, they
wouldn't
> > have needed to go into formation.
>
> The planet destroying beam was around 1e37 J. If the combined beam was a
> 100 million times more powerful (an extremely generous increase for the
> large beam) then each bioship has a firepower of 1e28 J.
Why assume 100 million times more powerful? The beam should have gone
through the planet then.
> This amount of
> power simply couldn't be generated by normal antimatter, or by an ISD.
An ISD uses more energy in one hyperspace jump than entire nations in their
existances do. Even if it's based on 20th nations, (absurd, since SW has
planetary nations, and are much more populated), that's 1e25 watts. JUST for
the hyperspace jump.
> > >
> > > 50 starships firing a torpedo every 2 seconds for 6 hours is 90,000
> > > torpedos. Trek ships usually fire torpedos in bursts, and
> > > phasers/quantum torpedos/other weapons were used as well.
> >
> > In the battle scene, starships were certainly not firing torps every 2
> > seconds. Ditto for Wolf 359.
>
> Trek ships usually fire bursts of ten or so torpedos. If they did this
> every twenty seconds this averages to 1 every 2 seconds.
Only GCS. Smaller ships don't. Voyager, for instance. The tubes are only
small enough for one torp per tube. Otherwise they wouldn't need two. The
turret on the E-E fired torps one at a time as well. As did the Miranda.
> > And if the ship got vaporized on the KE shields, then it wouldn't
explode,
> > would it.
>
> Sure it would. The ships mass (both of matter and antimatter) would
> still exist, and would react violently against the Borg ship regardless
> of whether or not the ship was intact.
Fine.
So, you concede this then? Since not only did you not answer, you snipped
it?
> > Worf is three times stronger than a human. SW Imperial war droids are
much
> > stronger. So are wookies. So are Barabels. So are Trandoshans. So are
Talz.
> > So are Noghri.
>
> Data is much stronger than Worf, and his strength is approximately that
> of a Borg (BoBW, he grabs Locutus's arm and its a close struggle). So
> Borg drones are stronger than Klingons, and probably stronger than most
> of the above.
Doesn't matter. Worf can kill a Borg with his strength. Meaning that all the
above species can too. And SW war droids are stronger than Data.
> > You're saying that ST is so primitive they don't have one-way shields
like
> > SW?
>
> They are used for atmospheric containment just like in SW. But in
> neither ST nor SW have we seen a shield that will stop solid objects
> from one side only.
Let me rephrase my question then.
You're saying that the Borg are so primitive they can't even have "windows"
on their shields like SW?
> > > S8472 utterly mauled the Borg cubes and planets. They didn't need to
use
> > > hand to hand.
> >
> > But they did, when they boarded the cubes. 8472 doesn't use weapons.
>
> They don't need them. Species 8472 is immune to assimilation, which
> gives them a major advantage when fighting Borg drones.
Don't change the subject. 8472 was able to use KE very effectively on Borg
drones. And the Borg didn't show any KE shields.
Strowbridge
Only if we see it on screen first.
C.S.Strowbridge
Baron Kenneth von Lowe
Gul Dukat
>Yes their is: They needed the tractor beam to go through.
You are refuted, the Enterprise and other ST ships fire weapons with shields
up and in a TNG episode, the enteprise uses its shields to protect it from
radiation while they tow a radioactive barge.
Gul Dukat
Gul Dukat
>Tuesday, August 10, 1999, 5:45:08 PM, Xtreme wrote:
>
>>>Nope, shields don't have to drop to use a tractor beam.
>>>
>> Agreed. In BOBW, didn't the Borg Cube had its shields up when it used their
>> tractor beam.
>
>I think there is an episode where the Ent-D use it's FF to block the
>borgs tractor beam ( can't remember the name ).
The E-D's shields won't stop a tractor from an inside source (Beam Emitter),
but Starfleet doesn't want beams getting in, so the shields block any outside
sources (Enemy's Beam Emitter). It's easy as that !
Gul Dukat
Rob Dalton
<xjex3.75335$jl.48...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
Didn't hold up very long now, did it? That radiation sure
did a number on the shields.
Dalton
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Gul Dukat
Can we say, MORON ? The Borg would just adapt to all your dinky lasers
(and yes, they are lasers !) and beam through your shields and assimilate you
all, you stupid piece of shit ! Fucking Retard ! Virigin !
>Can we say "BULLSHIT"? Here is what I think happened. Baron makes yet another
>one of his ludicrous claims, trying to pull a Lazarus on an already dead
>debate. Then, he realizes the stupidity and futility of his claims.
>Desperately seeking a way out, he gets one. Someone says that his claim is so
>ridiculous, it must be a joke. So, Baron says "Oh, yeah, I wasn't SERIOUS!".
>Was the phasers having inertial dampers a joke too? Using this tactic, Baron
>avoids any kind of responsiblity for his ludicrous posts. So, once again,
>BULLSHIT. Face it, the Borg aren't the big badasses when compared to the
>Empire. They are more like the grammar school bully who goes to high-school
>and gets the shit kicked out of him for being such an asshole. Baron's excuse
>would be like a physics teacher telling his students the Force equals
>Acceleration divided by Mass, and then saying "Oh, uhhh, I was, uhhhh,
>JOKING, yeah, that's righ
Gul Dukat
>> >Using this logic we can say a Chewie can defeat the entire ST universe.
>> >Since we've never seen him die, he must me immortal.
Using this Logic, Picard could defeat the entire SW universe.
Since we've never seen him, he must be immortal.
Just wanted to put a Pro-ST twist on that, Gul Dukat
Rob Dalton
<Myex3.75342$jl.48...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
We saw him die twice in "All Good Things." Along with
everyone else.