Rogue Squadron vs Enterprise-D
Wedge Antilles
shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew. (my
friend tells me it is quite powerful for a fed ship, so I chose it. Unless
he said E or C, wasn't listening properly. Anyway, the most powerful
Enterprise, whichever it may be) Yeah, they could. Then for them to switch
to 'groun-unit mode' (hehe) and board the disabled ship and kill the crew.
Simple
later,
Wedge
Xtreme
Wedge Antilles <.We...@starwarsfan.com> wrote in message
<704d7j$m5v$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz>...
Wrong. Even if they managed to disable the E-D they wouldn't be able to kill
the crew. Once the E-D crew finds out where the boarding party is, they can
simply erect the force fields to contain them. Or beam them into a holodeck
and make them think they won. All the while E-D is being repaired, reaches a
Starbase not before tractoring the fighters.
Xtreme
xtre...@yahoo.com
P.S. Would you think the Rogue squadron has a chance against E-E? E-E is the
most powerful not E-D. E-E used Type 12 phasers and Quantum torpedos while
E-D has Type 10 phasers and photon torpedos. I don't but I think E-E also
has ablative armor like the Defiant.
Chaz
atoms they came from!
Chaz
"The Wolf from Little Red Riding Hood ain't all bad; after all, he did eat
her grandmother. Hell Grandpa won't even do that!"
Mad Rabbit
easily take the E-E (the most powerful of the line), at least not without at
least 25-50% losses. But if and when they did take it, why capture it? The
kind of damage they'd have to do to disable it would make it worthless for
anything but scrap metal anyways, and exactly how the hell are 12 (at most!)
people going to take the entire crew of a ship that is manned by over a
thousand people? Gods help them if the first crew member they come across
happens to be a native of Janus VI.......
Mike
such, how did the borg take over the e-e? And why would Rogue Squadron wish to
capture the e-e when they have such lovely X-wing fighters? :) I'm just
teasing you, don't take it personally please. Yes, I'm biased towards SW and
there's no way to convert a loyal SW fan into a loyal st fan or do the
opposite. I think they cover this phenomena in Edward's technical guide to
insane science fiction fans volume VI.
Mike
>
Timothy Jones
>
> I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
> shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
> Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew.
You "reckon" wrong. Like all sW ships, they havn't the speed, power,
accuracy, or range to even come close to challenging a ship of the
Federation. At low impulse, say 1/4 impulse speed (which is 1/4 C) the
E-D is moving 75,000 kps. The fastest anything in SW in normal space has
*ever* been seen to move is no more than a hundred or so kps; in fact
even the very weapons fire (i.e., the actual discharge) from SW weapons
seems to be slower than this. And the sppeds of the latter are seen to
be constant. This and the stark range limits of their weaponery (not
more than a few dozen km at the very most) makes them unable to outshoot
Fed ships, which have weapons ranges of 300,000 km (i.e. one
light-second) for phasers and 3,500,000 for photon torpedos. And of
course, Fed weapons are several orders of magnature more powerful (and
accurate) than any conventional weapon in SW. Result: The fighters got
vaporized before they can get anywhere close to their weapons ranges.
Timothy Jones
>
> If it is so easy to keep entities from boarding the ship using force
> fields and such, how did the borg take over the e-e?
Because they're the borg! As we've seen 7 of 9 do, they typically just
walk right through most force fields. Utterly apples and oranges here.
Guys, you really are ignoring the obvious here. How the hell do you
propose to catch a warp-capable vessel with ships that move in normal
space speeds no faster than a few hundred kps, and whos very weapons
discharges move no more than that as well? How do you propose to
withstand firepower at least four or five orders of magnatude greater
than anything they're used to in terms of *conventional* weaponery? How
can you get through shields that can withstand such firepower, using
weapons that can't come close that that degree of performance? How can
you even get in range of an immobile E-D, when you're being snared by a
tractor beam long before you get close enough to fire? And on and on and
on. There really is no deep mystery here. Any SW ship or ships that try
to take on a Fed starship will get vaporized in the first few moments to
minutes (depending on fleet size) of battle.
Warp Drive
Timothy, you're wrong about the speed of impulse. The speed of light is
180,000 mps (miles per second). Full impulse is .25C, making it 45,000 mps,
and quarter impulse is 11,250 msp, or 18,000 kps (kilometers per second) not
your astronomical claims of 75,000 kps. SW capitol ships have ranges of a
couple million kms, outranging ST ships and SW ships have 4 pettawatt
turbolasers and 22 pettawatt heavy turbolasers while the ST phasers are 1.02
gigawatts. So, SW has technology of several orders of magnitude more
powerful than ST, not the other way around.
Sandy & Selma Strowbridge
>
> > On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Wedge Antilles wrote:
> >
> > I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
> > shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
> > Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew.
>
> You "reckon" wrong. Like all sW ships, they havn't the speed, power,
> accuracy, or range to even come close to challenging a ship of the
> Federation. At low impulse, say 1/4 impulse speed (which is 1/4 C)
In a episode of DS9 1/4 impulse was only 10 METERS a second. NOT 0.25c!
C.S.Strowbridge
Andrew Muir
This is not the best assumption to make. We've seen that when ships get
boarded ("Rascals" or "Basics pt I", the latter without a transporter), no
attempts can be made to stop them. The Federation has piss-weak ground
forces - they don't wear combat armor, their weapons have pathetic targeting
measures (they have the equivalent of a gunscope. A SEAL team could capture
a GCS), are easily susceptible to chemical weapons, don't have short-range
explosives etc....
'Basics I' proved that a Federation starship is in a very hairy situation,
even via normal boarding (i.e. not transporters).
>
>Wrong. Even if they managed to disable the E-D they wouldn't be able to
kill
>the crew. Once the E-D crew finds out where the boarding party is, they can
>simply erect the force fields to contain them. Or beam them into a holodeck
>and make them think they won. All the while E-D is being repaired, reaches
a
>Starbase not before tractoring the fighters.
>
>Xtreme
>xtre...@yahoo.com
>
>P.S. Would you think the Rogue squadron has a chance against E-E? E-E is
the
>most powerful not E-D. E-E used Type 12 phasers and Quantum torpedos while
>E-D has Type 10 phasers and photon torpedos. I don't but I think E-E also
>has ablative armor like the Defiant.
It doesn't. Type 12 phasers ARE more powerful, but they aren't more
powerful by a large order of magnitude.
Piett
Paul Cassidy
Warp Drive wrote in message <7068k2$de9$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>Timothy Jones wrote in message ...
>>>
>>> I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
>>> shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
>>> Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew.
>>
>>You "reckon" wrong. Like all sW ships, they havn't the speed, power,
>>accuracy, or range to even come close to challenging a ship of the
>>E-D is moving 75,000 kps. The fastest anything in SW in normal space has
>>*ever* been seen to move is no more than a hundred or so kps; in fact
>>even the very weapons fire (i.e., the actual discharge) from SW weapons
>>seems to be slower than this. And the sppeds of the latter are seen to
>>be constant. This and the stark range limits of their weaponery (not
>>more than a few dozen km at the very most) makes them unable to outshoot
>>Fed ships, which have weapons ranges of 300,000 km (i.e. one
>>light-second) for phasers and 3,500,000 for photon torpedos. And of
>>course, Fed weapons are several orders of magnature more powerful (and
>>accurate) than any conventional weapon in SW. Result: The fighters got
>>vaporized before they can get anywhere close to their weapons ranges.
>>
>>
>
>Timothy, you're wrong about the speed of impulse. The speed of light is
>180,000 mps (miles per second). Full impulse is .25C, making it 45,000 mps,
>and quarter impulse is 11,250 msp, or 18,000 kps (kilometers per second)
not
>your astronomical claims of 75,000 kps. SW capitol ships have ranges of a
>couple million kms, outranging ST ships and SW ships have 4 pettawatt
>turbolasers and 22 pettawatt heavy turbolasers while the ST phasers are
1.02
>gigawatts. So, SW has technology of several orders of magnitude more
>powerful than ST, not the other way around.
>
>
considered as thrust. Therefore it relates more to acceleration than speed.
In the technical manual, it states that the Enterprise D is capable of over
0.75c (without using power from the saucer engines!), and can accelerate at
about 10 km/s/2.
Photon torpedoes have a range of 3,500,000km (which according to your
figures outranges a SW ship). Phasers effective range is 300,000km (which is
considerably less than your SW range).
The 1.02GW figure should be treated carefully. We have seen the Enterprise
cause far more damage than that would allow. Writer error?
phong_...@my-dejanews.com
<Pine.A41.4.05.981015...@dante01.u.washington.edu>, Timothy
Jones <time...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
Okay here. An ISD can reach a speed of 0.24c, which is its cruising speed.
A fighter can obviously go far faster, but to be conservative, lets say
1.5X speed. This is still faster than the E-E.
SW weapons travel *far* faster than a few hundred kps.
And no, Rogue Squadron, despite their motto, could never take on the
Enterprise. Even if they could board it, they'd be killed by superior
personal weaponry and numbers.
And wtf do you get "orders of magnitude" higher weapons from? Granted,
1.02GW -> 600TW against *matter*, but that will not apply to shields.
1.02GW against shields. An X-Wing is capable of firing (conservative
estimate) 8GJ blasts *per shot*.
--
Phong Nguyen phong....@removethis.usa.net
http://stvswfaq.home.ml.org
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
djroc...@my-dejanews.com
> Guys, you really are ignoring the obvious here. How the hell do you
> propose to catch a warp-capable vessel with ships that move in normal
> space speeds no faster than a few hundred kps, and whos very weapons
> discharges move no more than that as well?
Well, first the x-wings will accelerate up to a high percentage of C, and
while the E-D can run around at warp, if it actually wants to fight, like the
thread suggests, it will have to drop to impulse.
> How do you propose to
> withstand firepower at least four or five orders of magnatude greater
> than anything they're used to in terms of *conventional* weaponery?
Next the X-wings will start using their real shields instead of the imaginary
ones you've created. The E-D's phasers won't be able to knock these shields
down before the x-wings fire.
> How can you get through shields that can withstand such firepower, using
> weapons that can't come close that that degree of performance?
Then the X-wings will use their real weapons, and not your imaginary ones.
These will be adequate for bringing the E-D's shields down.
> How can
> you even get in range of an immobile E-D, when you're being snared by a
> tractor beam long before you get close enough to fire?
The x-wings' high acceleration and powerful engines will allow them to break
away from any tractor beams from the E-D. And as for ranges, the x-wings will
simply start shooting as soon as the E-D is in range, which just happens to be
greater than the E-D's phaser range. And the x-wings can out maneuver any
photon torpedoe.
I think a lot of trekkers think the same way you do Timmy, but the funny thing
is that once you do the research, everything seems to work out the oposite of
what you claim.
--
DJ Rock 2000
Robert Williams
>the crew. Once the E-D crew finds out where the boarding party is, they can
>simply erect the force fields to contain them.
Why didn't voyager do this when the kazon boarded them? Or DS9 to the
klingons when they beamed on board in 'way of the warrior'. Or when the
borg beamed aboard the enterprise D(ud)?
Rob
Robert Williams
Timothy Jones wrote in message ...
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Wedge Antilles wrote:
>>
>> I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
>> shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
>> Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew.
>
>You "reckon" wrong
No he reckons right.
Rob
Sandy & Selma Strowbridge
>
> Warp Drive wrote in message <7068k2$de9$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> Photon torpedoes have a range of 3,500,000km (which according to your
> figures outranges a SW ship). Phasers effective range is 300,000km (which is
> considerably less than your SW range).
I'll post a longer message on the ranges in SW according to WEG.
> The 1.02GW figure should be treated carefully. We have seen the Enterprise
> cause far more damage than that would allow. Writer error?
This is due to the NDF Effect. This effect is greater against rocks than
denser materials.
C.S.Strowbridge
Paul Cassidy
Sandy & Selma Strowbridge wrote in message <362740DA...@direct.ca>...
>Paul Cassidy wrote:
>>
>> Warp Drive wrote in message
<7068k2$de9$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>
>> Photon torpedoes have a range of 3,500,000km (which according to your
>> figures outranges a SW ship). Phasers effective range is 300,000km (which
is
>> considerably less than your SW range).
>
>I'll post a longer message on the ranges in SW according to WEG.
Excellent!
>
>> The 1.02GW figure should be treated carefully. We have seen the
Enterprise
>> cause far more damage than that would allow. Writer error?
>
>This is due to the NDF Effect. This effect is greater against rocks than
>denser materials.
>
Ahh!! Ummm.......can you explain that? (Sorry, I'm not a physics person)
Sandy & Selma Strowbridge
>
> Sandy & Selma Strowbridge wrote in message <362740DA...@direct.ca>...
> >Paul Cassidy wrote:
> >>
> >> Warp Drive wrote in message
> <7068k2$de9$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> >
> >> Photon torpedoes have a range of 3,500,000km (which according to your
> >> figures outranges a SW ship). Phasers effective range is 300,000km (which
> is
> >> considerably less than your SW range).
> >
> >I'll post a longer message on the ranges in SW according to WEG.
>
> Excellent!
Not really, It's 6:25 am and I have insomnia. I can't sleep but I am too
tired to think. Hopefully the message is coherent.
> >> The 1.02GW figure should be treated carefully. We have seen the
> >> Enterprise cause far more damage than that would allow. Writer error?
> >
> >This is due to the NDF Effect. This effect is greater against rocks than
> >denser materials.
> >
> Ahh!! Ummm.......can you explain that? (Sorry, I'm not a physics person)
Basically, it sets up a chain reactions where the material starts to
destroy itself. This is most effective against rock, humans, etc.
However, the effectiveness is reduced with dense materials (Especially
military grade armor) and shields completely stop it.
C.S.Strowbridge
Xtreme
Robert Williams wrote in message <707esc$8vd$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>d to disable the E-D they wouldn't be able to kill
>>the crew. Once the E-D crew finds out where the boarding party is, they
can
>>simply erect the force fields to contain them.
>
>Why didn't voyager do this when the kazon boarded them?
They've tried to use it to contain 7 of 9 when she began to revert to Borg
status. But 7of9 simply walked through the force fields.
Or DS9 to the
>klingons when they beamed on board in 'way of the warrior'.
Cardassian tech not Fed.
Or when the
>borg beamed aboard the enterprise D(ud)?
Read above about 7of9.
>
>Rob
Xtreme
xtre...@yahoo.com
Warp Drive
Paul Cassidy wrote in message <707fo5$9gu$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>>This is due to the NDF Effect. This effect is greater against rocks than
>>denser materials.
>>
>Ahh!! Ummm.......can you explain that? (Sorry, I'm not a physics person)
>
bonds, like rock, or the hull of a ST ship, the effect of the phaser is
amplified, but against denser materials, like dense metels, ablative armor,
or neutronium, or against shields then the damage is just at it's lowest,
1.02 GW.
Andrew Muir
>>> The 1.02GW figure should be treated carefully. We have seen the
>Enterprise
>>> cause far more damage than that would allow. Writer error?
>>
>>denser materials.
>>
>Ahh!! Ummm.......can you explain that? (Sorry, I'm not a physics person)
Nuclear Disruption Force. Phasers are an efficient weapon in that they can
achieve destructive effects without actually having to put in as much energy
as would normally be required. The actual energy submitted into a Phaser
bank (i.e. one blast) is 1.02 GW. However, when the phaser beam strikes the
target, the beam destroys the intra-molecular bonds (in the nucleus) and
converts the matter to nuetrinos, which are harmless and fly off at the
speed of light. NDF is mentioned in the TNG Tech manual, but isn't really
defined - it has beent theorised, but never explicitly stated. It explains
why there is no vapour released when bodies dissapear, and also explains the
varied effects during the show - Phasers seem to be extremely strong against
weak rock and organic material, but not against starship armor. If we
follow the NDF theory, this makes complete sense - more dense elements (like
uranium) would be require greater NDF to destroy than rock or human flesh.
In the end equation, Mike Wong (being the person on this NG who knows
exactly what he is talking about) has stated that a phaser would be roughly
equivalent to a 300 TW plasma weapon in relation to starship's shields. How
it would affect hull plating is another question - but it would take some
doing.
Piett
Robert Williams
Xtreme wrote in message
<50UV1.8846$re.14...@HME2.newscontent-01.sprint.ca>...
>
>Robert Williams wrote in message <707esc$8vd$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>>d to disable the E-D they wouldn't be able to kill
>>>the crew. Once the E-D crew finds out where the boarding party is, they
>can
>>>simply erect the force fields to contain them.
>>
>>Why didn't voyager do this when the kazon boarded them?
What about this one though?
>
>They've tried to use it to contain 7 of 9 when she began to revert to Borg
>status. But 7of9 simply walked through the force fields.
>
> Or DS9 to the
>>klingons when they beamed on board in 'way of the warrior'.
>
>Cardassian tech not Fed.
They should have it installed after 5 years or so being on there, and i
didn'tt think cardassian technology was that crap.
>
> Or when the
>>borg beamed aboard the enterprise D(ud)?
>
>
>Read above about 7of9.
That was the borg.
Rob
>
>>
>>Rob
>
>
>Xtreme
>xtre...@yahoo.com
>
>
Mad Rabbit
system to contain the Kazon......
Robert Williams
Mad Rabbit wrote in message ...
>Notice he never did step up to plate on why they didn't use the force field
>system to contain the Kazon......
Strange isn't it............
Rob
>
>
>
Mr Morden
considerably, they *needed* Voyager to be captured and the crew exiled to a volcanic world!
ICQ#: 17460798
"Every light carries a shadow."
Mad Rabbit
approaching a decent plotline in it's entire run on television. And I'd LOVE
to write for ANY Science Fiction series. I might not do better than the
writers currently out there, but I'd have fun trying!
Chris Mullane
-Chris
Two takes on what makes a fanatic:
"A fanatic is somone who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his
aim."
-George Santayana
"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the
subject."
-Winston Churchill
Mad Rabbit
technobabble out the yin/yang have to do with storyline? Babylon 5 gets
along just fine without it, so why can't Star Trek?
Robert Williams
Mr Morden wrote in message <70agu7$dat$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>...
>Well, since you two are obviously great writers
You prophet, you :)
then why didn't you write the script? It would have slowed the plot down
>considerably, they *needed* Voyager to be captured and the crew exiled to a
volcanic world!
Fact remains they can't always do it.
Rob
Viper
probably couldn't even beat the Enterprise A. Reason, is the sqaudron ships
have very limited shield technology. All the Enterprise would have to do is
raise shields and destroy the ships one at a time while their shields were
slowly being drained. If however, they caught the Enterprise with their
shileds down, that would be a definitely different story. I could be wrong,
but thats the way I see it.
I just got an audio book called Star Wars Wraith Squadron. You should
check it out. It's good. I guess that there is probably a book out too.
Andrew Muir
Paul Cassidy wrote in message <7078po$5su$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>
>Warp Drive wrote in message <7068k2$de9$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
In "Return of the Jedi", the bunker display shows the Imperial Fleet moving
toward the Rebel one at an extremely high velocity. Micheal Wong (I think
it was him), a top notch physicist, worked out that it was equal to
acceleration (and by newtonian logic decelleration, of course) of roughly 30
km/s^2. 3 times the acceleration of a GCS.
Piett
Andrew Muir
> Or DS9 to the
>>klingons when they beamed on board in 'way of the warrior'.
>
>Cardassian tech not Fed.
Its been mainly retrofitted with Federation technology. Some areas are an
amalgam, some (e.g. the weapons) are pure Federation tech. Thats still a
strawman arguement, though - the Federation and Cardassians have fairly
comparable technology in most areas.
Piett
Byron Dickerson
1) Rougue Squadroon
2) Wedge's Gamble
3) The Krytos Trap
4) The Bacta War
(Note: the first four were written by Michael A. Stackpole while Wraith
Squadron and a sixth book, Iron Fist, were written by Aaron Allston.)
Viper wrote in message ...
Robert Williams
Mr Morden wrote in message <70arqr$mc0$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>...
>Yes, Voyager is nearing the end of its warranty and the forcefields are
fault, happy?!
No.
Paul Cassidy
PuPPeTeer
You welcome.
Robert Williams
Mr Morden wrote in message <70d1f2$3qq$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>...
>And it is 70,000 ly from a legal MOT test.
No.
jean...@bigfoot.com
"Wedge Antilles" <.We...@starwarsfan.com> wrote:
> I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
> shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
> friend tells me it is quite powerful for a fed ship, so I chose it. Unless
> he said E or C, wasn't listening properly. Anyway, the most powerful
> Enterprise, whichever it may be) Yeah, they could. Then for them to switch
> to 'groun-unit mode' (hehe) and board the disabled ship and kill the crew.
> Simple
>
I don't mean to flame you, but you admit that you don't know anything about
how powerful the various Enterprises are. Yet you are willing to announce
publically that Rogue Squadron could defeat them.
Andrew Muir
ring a bell and i'll assume you're new here. We DO know the power of the
Enterprises - which is what allows us to make the statement in the first
place. if you want more info, I'll be happy to give it to you.
Piett
--
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark
places where no-one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no-one
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"
- Motto of the Anla-shok
jean...@bigfoot.com wrote in message <70gg74$fg9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Mad Rabbit
resist the notion that any single squadron of X-Wings, no matter who is
piloting them, could take the Enterprise.
Mattheq
<rs...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Or DS9 to the
> >>klingons when they beamed on board in 'way of the warrior'.
> >
> >Cardassian tech not Fed.
>
> didn'tt think cardassian technology was that crap.
A station has wide open spaces, not conviniently closed off corridors like a
starship.
Mattheq
--
"And then, one Thursday nearly two thousand years after one man had been
nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for
a change..."http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/9079/ Drop in!
dej
> > accuracy, or range to even come close to challenging a ship of the
> > Federation. At low impulse, say 1/4 impulse speed (which is 1/4 C)
>
>
> C.S.Strowbridge
The Federation has a problem with three Klingon vessals in the " Kobyashi
Maru". Klingon K'tinga class battle cruisers only have 4 forward-firing
disruptors and one photon torpedo bay each....a total of 12 forward
disruptors and 4 torpedo bays...A squadron of (12) X-wings would have 48
laser cannons and 24 torpedo bays total.... Heaven forbid they run into a
Super Star Destroyer....1600 meters of sheer terror....(most Federation
vessels are between 600-700 meters)....the Star Wars SSDs have hundreds of
laser cannons and eight heavy laser turrets each containing four turbolaser
batteries.
The Enterprise has a crew compliment of 600+ lets just make it fare and
have a flight group of 600 X-wings! :)
Warp Drive
dej wrote in message <01bdfd70$261ad8a0$ed1f1c26@darrenj2>...
Small correction here. Imperial Star Destroyers are 1600 m. Super Star
Destroyesrs are 17 km.
Mattheq
They'll never sell it with that on the clock.
Nathan Thomas
>The Enterprise has a crew compliment of 600+ lets just make it fare and
>have a flight group of 600 X-wings! :)
>
Not to mention that Star wars happened a long time ago, while
Enterprise D is something to look forward to. By the time these two
technologies meet, think how far more advanced Enterprise's opponants
will be to what we are used to :P
Paul Cassidy
Nathan Thomas wrote in message <36335de9...@news.m.iinet.net.au>...
>On 22 Oct 1998 03:51:32 GMT, "dej" <anti...@att.com> wrote:
>
>>The Enterprise has a crew compliment of 600+ lets just make it fare and
>>have a flight group of 600 X-wings! :)
>>
ST side can have a proportionate number of ships, The E-D had a crew of
1024. What is the crew of an ISD? How many ships would that give the ST
side? :)
Mad Rabbit
gunners, and the number of troops together and dividing this number by 1,024
then rounding up for generosity's sake, you could use 46 GCS for every 1
ISD.
Paul Cassidy
Mad Rabbit wrote in message ...
Nice one! Hmmm......so we use ten of the GCS for ramming....and then the
next ten for..........
Sorry, couldn't resist that! :)
Mad Rabbit
who's apparently heard the concept of a FIRESHIP!!! If it were me I WOULD
use them for ramming!!! Hell, if I were the Federation fighting the Borg I'd
load a couple dozen Miranda, Oberth and Excelsior class ships with the
butt-nastiest explosives I could find and hook their helm up to a photon
torpedo guidance system and send 'em on a collision course with the Borg
ship!!! I can't BELIEVE that Starfleet is so fucking dumb that they haven't
thought of this and yet they quite apparently haven't.
Andrew Muir
Mad Rabbit wrote in message
>who's apparently heard the concept of a FIRESHIP!!!
Oh, i've more than heard of the concept. Fireships played a fairly
interesting role in the defeat of the Spanish armada....
If it were me I WOULD
>use them for ramming!!!
We saw in "Dark Force Rising" that Han and Luke used a derelict Katana Fleet
dreadnought as a ramming tool....
Hell, if I were the Federation fighting the Borg I'd
>load a couple dozen Miranda, Oberth and Excelsior class ships with the
>butt-nastiest explosives I could find and hook their helm up to a photon
>torpedo guidance system and send 'em on a collision course with the Borg
>ship!!! I can't BELIEVE that Starfleet is so fucking dumb that they haven't
>thought of this and yet they quite apparently haven't.
We saw that Kirk was willing to do this. In "The Doomsday Weapon", he
overloaded the Contellation's reactors and rammed it into the Device's
mouth. All they'd need is to do was set it to warp on remote when it got in
range.
Piett
Mad Rabbit
numbers?) captains has the brains to think of using a fireship..... Oh yes,
and Riker thought of it as a last resort in BoBW...... Gee, what a bunch of
tacticians!
Paul Cassidy
Mad Rabbit wrote in message ...
On the other hand we have SW Admiral Daala. Supposedly she was a tactical
genius, who thumped all the other Imperials in wargames. What did she
actually achieve. Well, she lost a SD trying to stop an "invincible" weapon.
That was smart! She lost another to a ramming tactic! Obviously she had
never heard of a fireship! And finally, she lost a third in another futile
attempt to capture the same "invincible" weapon. Didn't learn from her
mistakes hmm?
Alternatively we have Grand Moff "Yes I have overwhelming force but I'm not
going to use it" Tarkin.
Also the various inept commanders in TESB.
Not to mention the Emperor. Lets tell the rebels about this unfinished
battlestation.
Sorry, I forgot Thrawn. Fair enough. That's one SW commander out of "what's
the latest warsie rant about fleet strength numbers?" (Sorry, that was
really below the belt! :) )
I don't think that ST has much claim to tactical brilliance, but I think
that SW has even less! Most SW & ST admirals could be outwitted by a five
year old. (There, now I've managed to offend both sides.....ho hum!)
Mad Rabbit
command officers aren't the cream of the genetic crop. But when you have
guys like Vader around who'll kill you at the drop of a hat, I doubt the
average lifespan for most command officers (at least when Vader is around)
is too terribly long. If I were a Star Trek or Star Wars Admiral I'd likely
do things differently from what we've been shown. I dunno if what I'd try
would work any better, but I'd have fun trying. Daala's problem wasn't that
she's incompetent, it's that she is the unluckiest being in all the known
multiverses. Tarkin was simply too arrogant for words. The Emperor was a
megalomaniacal, egomaniacal, sometimes-genius who really should have stuck
to governing and left tactics to people who know what they are. Similar to
Adolph Hitler in that respect. And no, I very much doubt that the similarity
is mere coincidence. Basically, Kirk, Picard, and Sisko are precisely as
good at tactics and strategy as the writers want them to be. Apparently the
writers don't want Janeway to be anywhere near a level that could be
referred to as "good" so I did not mention her above. Since Star Wars was
three movies and not hundreds of hours of films and television episodes, all
the bad guys we saw were either presented as incompetent (so that the good
guys could win) or presented as ineffectual (so the good guys could win).
None of the novelists with the exception of Zahn have bothered to make their
villains a serious threat so none of them really rate. Thrawn is the only
example of a villain who was so good that the only way he COULD be defeated
is through utilization of one of his few blind spots (the Noghri Death
Commandos) and sheer luck.
Warp Drive
>use them for ramming!!! Hell, if I were the Federation fighting the Borg
I'd
>load a couple dozen Miranda, Oberth and Excelsior class ships with the
>butt-nastiest explosives I could find and hook their helm up to a photon
>torpedo guidance system and send 'em on a collision course with the Borg
>ship!!! I can't BELIEVE that Starfleet is so fucking dumb that they haven't
>thought of this and yet they quite apparently haven't.
They probably have good reason for this. I mean, if it took me ten years
just to build a single starship, I would be more careful with them. Of
course, then again, the Federation built 12 GCS, which take 10 years to
build and supposedly could last hundreds of years, but they lost every
single one of them.
Mad Rabbit
lost his ship and went slightly insane towards the end of his life,
Commodore Matthew Decker from the Original Series episode "The Doomsday
Machine" died like a hero and under other circumstances would likely have
been much more level-headed. Remember, Kirk was an Admiral for a time. And
then there's Admiral Leonard McCoy and Admiral Hikaru Sulu (who may or may
not still be alive by the time of TNG. His daughter Demora Sulu certainly
is.)
I believe some of the reasons we never see any of the Admiralty shown in a
spectacular light is because A) They're usually cast as aberrant villains or
B) they are written in a way that makes them seem stupid or obtuse as
compared to the main characters. The writers never seem to want to show
someone who outshines or even matches the main characters for fear that
they'll overshadow them. Silly, really, since recurring non-main characters
is generally a foreign concept for Star Trek (or it was when I still watched
it).
Mad Rabbit
herself was the only one to survive and even she originally fell in battle.
phong_...@my-dejanews.com
"Paul Cassidy" <paul...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Mad Rabbit wrote in message ...
> >So one Captain out of (what's the latest Trekkie rant about fleet strength
> >numbers?) captains has the brains to think of using a fireship..... Oh yes,
> >and Riker thought of it as a last resort in BoBW...... Gee, what a bunch of
> >tacticians!
> >
> >
>
> On the other hand we have SW Admiral Daala. Supposedly she was a tactical
> genius, who thumped all the other Imperials in wargames. What did she
> actually achieve. Well, she lost a SD trying to stop an "invincible" weapon.
> That was smart! She lost another to a ramming tactic! Obviously she had
> never heard of a fireship! And finally, she lost a third in another futile
> attempt to capture the same "invincible" weapon. Didn't learn from her
> mistakes hmm?
>
> Alternatively we have Grand Moff "Yes I have overwhelming force but I'm not
> going to use it" Tarkin.
>
> Also the various inept commanders in TESB.
>
> Not to mention the Emperor. Lets tell the rebels about this unfinished
> battlestation.
>
> Sorry, I forgot Thrawn. Fair enough. That's one SW commander out of "what's
> the latest warsie rant about fleet strength numbers?" (Sorry, that was
> really below the belt! :) )
>
there's bound to be more good admirals in the Fleet.
> I don't think that ST has much claim to tactical brilliance, but I think
> that SW has even less! Most SW & ST admirals could be outwitted by a five
> year old. (There, now I've managed to offend both sides.....ho hum!)
>
>
Whoa....
--
Phong Nguyen phong....@removethis.usa.net
http://stvswfaq.home.ml.org
Andrew Muir
Basically, Kirk, Picard, and Sisko are precisely as
>good at tactics and strategy as the writers want them to be. Apparently the
>writers don't want Janeway to be anywhere near a level that could be
>referred to as "good" so I did not mention her above.
Aye, but we can look at other ST high Command members.
Admiral Leyton - someone who believed that an 'extreme' measure was actually
taking MILITARY action against the Dominion, before they were organised. A
real extremist and military looney, that one. I mean, imagine, attacking a
deadly enemy before they could properly mount an offensive against you! Its
military madness! Yet, he was shoved aside and labelled a radical,
totalitarian asshole. And look where it got the Alpha Quad.
Admiral Nechenayev - Brrrr. Not exactly a top Commander, this one.
Vindictive and fairly silly.
Admiral Pressemen - oh no, another nasty Federation admiral who actually
wanted to ensure safety for his people! How terrible of him. Its a good
thing he was chucked out, those high-ups at Starfleet Command really know a
good item when they see one.
Admiral Satie - a conspiracy minded, paranoid freak.
Admiral Ross - spineless, to a large degree, and is torn between appeasement
for the Romulans and listening to morals. He made the right choice, i'll
give him that.
If anyone else can remember some Admirals that were given reasonable
personalities, i'd like to add them. The main problem with SF Admirals is
that they are either idiots, or are labelled as "extreme" for actually
considering doing something smart, in strategic terms.
Out of Picard, Sisko and Kirk, I regard Kirk as the best tactician. He's
extremely resourceful, intelligent, bold, and doesn't let his emotions get
the better of him ALL the time. Picard would be next, his chief failing is
trusting diplomacy too much. Sisko is allright, but hasn't shown himself to
be a real tactical genius.
Since Star Wars was
>three movies and not hundreds of hours of films and television episodes,
all
>the bad guys we saw were either presented as incompetent (so that the good
>guys could win) or presented as ineffectual (so the good guys could win).
>None of the novelists with the exception of Zahn have bothered to make
their
>villains a serious threat so none of them really rate.
Agreed. Most of them are "boo, hiss!" villians, sadly.
Thrawn is the only
>example of a villain who was so good that the only way he COULD be defeated
>is through utilization of one of his few blind spots (the Noghri Death
>Commandos) and sheer luck.
He isn't the only Imperial to show potential, however. Capt. Palleaon was a
good Captain, and one who was capable enough to learn.
However, I tend to believe that Thrawn has shown himself to be the single
best tactician and/or strategist of anyone i've ever seen in ST/SW.
Picard/Kirk are excellent tacticians, but they don't have to worry about
overall strategy....Thrawn showed continuously that he was good on the spot
(Those 4 Assualt frigates at the beginning of "Heir to the Empire", the
battle over Coruscant in "The Last Command", his first battle against
Palpatine's ships in "Vision of the Future") AND excellent at strategy - he
played Borsk Fey'la and the New Republic's leadership like a fiddle, he was
able to make the NR fear for its existence in many ways, and had a clear
plan of action - that ALMOST worked.
Piett
Wedge Antilles
don't they can kinda tell the difference. Their IQ is like
7,9368,9387923,92782.0954 times that of any Trek character. Trek guys r
stupid they reckon Holos and real is the same they can't tell the
difference. damn they are stupid. Anyway, erect forcefields? yeah, the
Rogues are gonna stand around saying "oh nive job you're doing building a
force field" anyway Corran can slice through it.
later,
Wedge
Xtreme wrote in message ...
>
>Wedge Antilles <.We...@starwarsfan.com> wrote in message
><704d7j$m5v$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz>...
>>I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
>>shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
>>Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew.
>(my
>>friend tells me it is quite powerful for a fed ship, so I chose it. Unless
>>he said E or C, wasn't listening properly. Anyway, the most powerful
>>Enterprise, whichever it may be) Yeah, they could. Then for them to switch
>>to 'groun-unit mode' (hehe) and board the disabled ship and kill the crew.
>>Simple
>>
>>later,
>>Wedge
>>
>
>
>Wrong. Even if they managed to disable the E-D they wouldn't be able to
kill
>the crew. Once the E-D crew finds out where the boarding party is, they can
>simply erect the force fields to contain them. Or beam them into a holodeck
>and make them think they won. All the while E-D is being repaired, reaches
a
>Starbase not before tractoring the fighters.
>
>Xtreme
>xtre...@yahoo.com
>
>P.S. Would you think the Rogue squadron has a chance against E-E? E-E is
the
>most powerful not E-D. E-E used Type 12 phasers and Quantum torpedos while
>E-D has Type 10 phasers and photon torpedos. I don't but I think E-E also
>has ablative armor like the Defiant.
>
>
Wedge Antilles
later,
Wedge
Mad Rabbit wrote in message ...
>I gotta agree with Chaz on this one. I don't think Rogue Squadron could
>easily take the E-E (the most powerful of the line), at least not without
at
>least 25-50% losses. But if and when they did take it, why capture it? The
>kind of damage they'd have to do to disable it would make it worthless for
>anything but scrap metal anyways, and exactly how the hell are 12 (at
most!)
>people going to take the entire crew of a ship that is manned by over a
>thousand people? Gods help them if the first crew member they come across
>happens to be a native of Janus VI.......
>
>
Wedge Antilles
approximately 1000km/s (using 300,000km/h as light speed am I wrong about
this?)
later,
Wedge
Timothy Jones wrote in message ...
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Wedge Antilles wrote:
>>
>> I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
>> shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
>> Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew.
>
>You "reckon" wrong. Like all sW ships, they havn't the speed, power,
>accuracy, or range to even come close to challenging a ship of the
>Federation. At low impulse, say 1/4 impulse speed (which is 1/4 C) the
>E-D is moving 75,000 kps. The fastest anything in SW in normal space has
>*ever* been seen to move is no more than a hundred or so kps; in fact
>even the very weapons fire (i.e., the actual discharge) from SW weapons
>seems to be slower than this. And the sppeds of the latter are seen to
>be constant. This and the stark range limits of their weaponery (not
>more than a few dozen km at the very most) makes them unable to outshoot
>Fed ships, which have weapons ranges of 300,000 km (i.e. one
>light-second) for phasers and 3,500,000 for photon torpedos. And of
>course, Fed weapons are several orders of magnature more powerful (and
>accurate) than any conventional weapon in SW. Result: The fighters got
>vaporized before they can get anywhere close to their weapons ranges.
>
>
Wedge Antilles
a Trekkie!
later,
Wedge
Wedge Antilles <.We...@starwarsfan.com> wrote in message
<7195c5$iv3$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz>...
Mad Rabbit
Mattheq
<.We...@starwarsfan.com> wrote:
> no, 0.75c (maximum impulse of Voyager) is 62.5km/second X-Wing is
> approximately 1000km/s (using 300,000km/h as light speed am I wrong about
> this?)
300,000 kp/s/ is c, you divvy!
mattheq
phong_...@my-dejanews.com
is at least 60 km/s^2 (using a conservative 2X acceleration vs. an ISD).
"Wedge Antilles" <.We...@starwarsfan.com> wrote:
> no, 0.75c (maximum impulse of Voyager) is 62.5km/second X-Wing is
> approximately 1000km/s (using 300,000km/h as light speed am I wrong about
> this?)
>
> later,
> Wedge
>
> Timothy Jones wrote in message ...
> >> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Wedge Antilles wrote:
> >>
> >> I reckon Rogue Sqaudron (timeframe being during the X-Wing novel series,
> >> shortly before the assault on Coruscant) could take on and defeat the
> >> Enterprise-D by disabling it then boarding it and killing all the crew.
> >
> >You "reckon" wrong. Like all sW ships, they havn't the speed, power,
> >accuracy, or range to even come close to challenging a ship of the
> >Federation. At low impulse, say 1/4 impulse speed (which is 1/4 C) the
> >E-D is moving 75,000 kps. The fastest anything in SW in normal space has
> >*ever* been seen to move is no more than a hundred or so kps; in fact
> >even the very weapons fire (i.e., the actual discharge) from SW weapons
> >seems to be slower than this. And the sppeds of the latter are seen to
> >be constant. This and the stark range limits of their weaponery (not
> >more than a few dozen km at the very most) makes them unable to outshoot
> >Fed ships, which have weapons ranges of 300,000 km (i.e. one
> >light-second) for phasers and 3,500,000 for photon torpedos. And of
> >course, Fed weapons are several orders of magnature more powerful (and
> >accurate) than any conventional weapon in SW. Result: The fighters got
> >vaporized before they can get anywhere close to their weapons ranges.
> >
> >
>
>