Re: How UPN ruined Star Trek
AllHairTheBrag...@startrek.com
wrote:
>http://startrekdom.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-upn-ruined-star-trek.html
>
>by Jared B.
>
>"We were working on a network that, in a sense, was completely
>contradictory to the nature of the show."
>-Rick Berman, quoted in 20 December 2006 SciFi Pulse
>
>"I think it [UPN] damaged the show. If you don’t mind booting Brent
>Spiner later on I could stay up here all day and talk about this one
>subject. I think it hurt Voyager and much more with Enterprise, to be
>on a constantly shifting fledgling network that in some parts it was
>on channel 92 if you could find it and you needed the foil rabbit
>ears... Tons of problems being on that network. Also we didn’t have a
>lot of money to promote. So I don’ think it was a great thing for the
>franchise. I cant blame it all on that. There were other problems of
>course, but it was truly frustrating."
>-Brannon Braga at VegasCon 2007
>
>
>Star Trek producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga have received a lot
>of grief from Trekkies during the past decade. As fans witnessed the
>slow and painful decline of Trek's popularity, they pointed angrily at
>the "Killer Bs," who allegedly and almost single-handedly destroyed
>the Star Trek franchise. If Paramount had cleansed the Trek offices
>and brought in new blood, if Berman had seen what was painfully
>obvious to many fans, and if the writers understood and adored The
>Original Series... then Star Trek would still live in episodic
>television.
>
>So it is claimed.
>
>Yet, while Berman and Braga became convenient scapegoats, vilified to
>an extreme degree in fanzines, chat rooms, and internet message
>boards, another culprit stood by immune in the shadows of closed-door
>meetings and safeguarded memos. Unlike "Bermaga," this villain didn't
>have to answer to fans as it meddled with Star Trek as no network had
>done before.
>
>Of course we are talking about UPN, the Paramount television network
>that launched in 1995 with its flagship Voyager lost in space. In the
>search for viewers and profits, UPN stumbled for a decade, drifting
>aimlessly from one target demographic to another.
>
>Rarely did shows last more than one season, due to their dismal
>quality. Rarely did the network compete with other primetime channels,
>who, in the midst of the reality TV takeover, took viewers from one
>forgettable sensation to another. Rarely did UPN offer good
>alternatives beyond poorly written sitcoms and canned applause.
>
>And, as digital cable and satellite television continued expanding,
>viewers were hard-pressed to choose "Amish in the City" over quality
>shows on SciFi, the History Channel, the various Discovery spin-offs,
>or even USA, the network that spawned from late night bikini horror
>flicks hosted by Gilbert Godfrey. After a decade of switching target
>audiences based on the most popular show, UPN finally ran out of
>dilithium, and it soon became trapped in the badlands of corporate
>damage control.
>
>Throughout its 11 year fiasco, it left its mark on Star Trek. Exactly
>how and when remains a mystery. Obviously, being on a network that
>wasn't available in all markets hurt the shows, especially considering
>that UPN wasn't available to satellite subscribers unless it was
>already locally accessible. Those households "lucky" enough to have
>UPN were subjected to constant sports preemptions, unreliable
>broadcast quality, and random network bugs, such as broadcasting 22
>minutes of Enterprise without sound in 2002.
>
>It is also fairly clear that UPN is to blame for many questionable
>production decisions, such as adding a boob-enhancing catsuit to
>Voyager, a show that began as a feminist statement of sorts. In
>several interviews, Rick Berman recalled the horror of network suits
>at seeing Seven of Nine borgified. "Get her out of that junk!" they
>screamed while hoping for a quick fix that catered to the lowest
>denominator. It is also clear that UPN pressured Berman and others to
>make Voyager and Enterprise "more like TNG," because they would have
>happily cashed in on a carbon-copy success that was completely
>unoriginal. Berman has publicly admitted that Enterprise would have
>been extremely different, focused on the nitty-gritty aspects of
>exploring our neighboring worlds (no Klingons, no Romulans, no Borg).
>Instead, he had to make it more "recognizable." At the same time,
>Berman lobbied to give Trek a year-long hiatus. He feared that "too
>many trips to the well" in search of profits was diminishing the shelf-
>life of Trek. Yet, UPN insisted otherwise, arguing that Trek could be
>reinvented for a younger, hipper audience.
>
>Consequently, we were given nauseating tits and ass decon scenes that
>seemed to replace any opportunity for meaningful dialogue or
>interesting character development. UPN suits cringed at the thought of
>intellectually challenging their Sweet Valley High, Moesha, and WWE
>Smackdown viewers. A network that thrived on fluff didn't have a high
>tolerance level for pedantic and provocative drama.
>
>Rick Berman had to relent to the demands of his boss's network. He may
>have wondered at one point, "Who exactly is paying me here?" After
>all, this situation was unique for Star Trek under Berman's watch. The
>Next Generation thrived in syndication, meaning that no individual
>network had much control over the content, characters, message, or
>direction of the show. This free reign was one of Gene Roddenberry's
>original demands for 24th century Trek. He had been burned much too
>often by meddling network suits and short-sighted executives, or so he
>claimed.
>
>Yet, with Voyager and Enterprise, the situation was suddenly reversed.
>Paramount finally launched the great experiment of a new network
>helmed by a new Star Trek series (see Star Trek: Phase II). It failed
>miserably. No one at the top asked, "Is it logical to lauch a channel
>catered to teens and urban audiences with a flagship show catered
>toward an educated fanbase renowned for its disposable income?"
>
>Now, nearly 2 years after the cancellation of Enterprise and 1 year
>after the death of UPN, Rick Berman is writing his memoirs. Mr.
>Berman, come clean for us! Tell us exactly what this network did and
>how they interfered with Trek. Tell us who is really to blame for the
>failures, faulty directions, and ratings ploys. Tell us, please, how
>UPN ruined Star Trek.
>
>Perhaps when fans finally understand the details, your contributions
>to Trek will be celebrated for what they were in good times, not what
>we witnessed in bad times.
>
>In the meantime, this writer invites every fan to analyze what went
>wrong over the years. Ask yourself, "Should we really blame Rick
>Berman?"
Every villain becomes a hero in their memoirs.
With NBC, Gene Roddenberry was able to make "Star Trek" with paper
māché rocks, recycled sets, and cannibalized transistor decoration
parts. If just money on camera sold, they'd just show 45 minutes of a
bank vault.
Remember how some of the best shows in history have been on radio or
just a bare stage where the story is KING. Cartoons aren't a story.
With UPN and "Voyager" and later "Enterprise" the Buttfuck Twinks
were able to take millions per episode and run it into the ground. The
difference is in the vision, the production, and the writing.
Let's say UPN twisted the Buttfuck Twinks into making Voyager a wild
sex comp in space. BFD. It could have been written with clever
appealing characters, interesting dialog, and new situations in the
same way Gunsmoke recycled the basic western for 20 goddamn years.
Finally, a sci-fi series where the technobabble was not the MAIN
point. Put the Encyclopedia away and holla. But NO. Catsuits.
And lets put to rest the James Bond invincibility of the entire crew.
Hell, you would think Star Trek is about a church full of immortal
Saints in a space ship. Let Star Trek go like a cop show instead of a
neutered Utopia nonsense. Anything but the way it turned out.
Instead, Voyager and Enterprise were both basically the adventures of
self-righteous, boring stiffs riding in a coffin with nacelles acting
out the next permutations in some boring Rubik's Cube selected
"adventure." THAT'S why no one watched. It sucked.
For Berman NOW to claim he TRIED REAL HARD would be like Hitler
writing his memoirs and claiming that the concentration camp death
ovens were just a failed attempt to help Jews tan.
As always, the mea culpa is always: "If Only The Führer Knew."
Your Name
<AllHairTheBrag...@StarTrek.com> wrote in message
news:spn24654mh5p5o08j...@4ax.com...
Although UPN / Paramount no doubt do share some of the blame, it definitely
is largely down to the abysmal hopelessness and stupidity of Beavis &
Butthead. Neither actually knew nor cared about "Star Trek" (other than
adding a big name to their resumes) and both had absolutely zero creative
talent (just look at their own hopeless shows that quickly got cancelled).
They simply had no idea what they were doing and no real wish to actually do
it anyway.
Clams Canino
<AllHairTheBrag...@StarTrek.com> wrote in message
> For Berman NOW to claim he TRIED REAL HARD would be like Hitler
> writing his memoirs and claiming that the concentration camp death
> ovens were just a failed attempt to help Jews tan.
>
> As always, the mea culpa is always: "If Only The Führer Knew."
I'm going to give you a yellow card for a Godwin's Law violation. :)
-W
ToolPackinMama
Brad Filippone
> <AllHairTheBragaButtfuckTwi...@StarTrek.com> wrote in message
>
> news:spn24654mh5p5o08j...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:43:08 -0700 (PDT), TMC <tmc1...@gmail.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've been watching through the various series at the rate of one
episode (or movie) a day for some time now. I'm currently in Season
Five DS9 and Season Three Voyager, alternating between the two.
Most of these episodes I've not seen since they first aired. I had a
so-so opinion of them then, but I'm enjoying them slightly more now.
Even so, I must admit to a decline in the overall quality as the
episodes go on, in both Deep Space Nine and Voyager.
This morning I watched the Voyager episode "Blood Fever." To refresh
your memories, a Vulcan engineer named Vorik who works with Torrez has
entered pon farr. With no chance of getting home to take his mate,
his out of control emotions force him to go after Torrez, and when he
attacks her, he briefly melds with her, causing his blood fever to
pass to her.
I have mixed feelings about this episode, and that's typical of my
feelings for most Season Three episodes of Voyager. The positive:
The writer, Lisa Klink, actually did some Original Series research,
rare for Voyager, even though it consists of only the one episode,
"Amok Time." For example, it is made clear that pon farr is a private
matter among Vulcans, rarely discussed with "outsiders." Even the
Doctor has limited knowledge of it, and Vorik is forced to reluctantly
provide information so the Doctor can help him. By the end of the
episode, however, a few other people have been informed about pon
farr, out of neccessity. There is also a mention of the challenge
ritual of koon-ut-kalifee (which I've probably spelled wrong, sorry!),
but that leads into the episode's silliest moment, which I'll mention
below. All in all, an episode that shows more than the usual amount
of thought was put into it. Also, kudos for the scene in which Tuvok
goes to Vorik's quarters to talk to him about the problem. If I'm not
mistaken this is the only time we've ever seen two Vulcans converse
about this delicate subject (though there's a lot of Enterprise
episodes I've never seen, so I can't be certain).
But--
The Negative: I find it hard to believe that the entire plak tow
fever can be transferred in a moment's touch, and that's all it was--a
moment. When a mind meld is done willingly, it still needs a few
moments to set up, and that's true even of these later series. Add to
that the fact that Torrez is NOT a Vulcan, she's a human/Klingon
hybrid. Sure, it's possible for both those races to get a little
"crazy" about sex once in awhile, but this is Torrez, who usually can
successfully keep her violent Klingon side in check. Perhaps taking
on the emotional nightmare of a Vulcan plak tow is enough to put her
over the edge, but I find that hard to believe.
And as for the silly part I alluded to above, it's when a supposedly
cured Vorik suddenly appears on the planet (is any old crewmember
allowed to transport to a planet without clearing it through his
superiors???) and challenges Paris to a fight over Torrez (who, with
the right to select her own champion, chooses herself, though that
part they DID get right). This is where Lisa Klink's research into
"Amok Time" fails. In the old episode, T'Pau makes it clear that it
is a fight to the death, and will not accept any objection from McCoy
or Kirk. Therefore the fight between Vorik and Torrez should be a
fight to the death, yet no mention is made of the fact that if Vorik
wins, his "prize" is dead, so he still loses! That, plus the fact
that throwing the fight in to the show at this late a stage with no
buildup to it doesn't work dramatically, and it seems like it was only
put in to add a bit of unneccessary tension, when we the viewers
already know the outcome.
I may also add that centering an episode around, what I can crudly
call, crewmembers' "hornyness" is a bit much. Were it not for
network's censors, there are moments that could easily have gone as
far as "soft core." And another thing--raise your hand if the thought
of tossing Verik into the holodeck with a hologram Vulcan woman didn't
occur to you when you first became aware of what the problem was? Hmm
not many hands there, are there?
So, in conclusion, even in what I would term a better than average
episode for Voyager, there's still a lot of problems there. How many
of them can be attributed to B&B I don't know. Perhaps UPN forced
some descisions to me made, as they said. But, seriously, as I watch
through these episodes again for the first time in years, I'm seeing
flaws that I didn't see years ago, and I saw plenty of flaws years
ago.
On the other hand, as least for once the problem wasn't solved by
tossing around a load of technobabble!
Brad
Anim8rFSK
<1e4bf41a-5afd-40f4...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Brad Filippone <Brad_Fi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have mixed feelings about this episode, and that's typical of my
> feelings for most Season Three episodes of Voyager. The positive:
> The writer, Lisa Klink
I remember when she started, and they announced a new writer, and we
were looking forward to seeing what she could do, and her first ep was
god awful pig slop, and hope waned.
--
TOM SWIFT 100th Anniversary convention! July 16-18 2010, San Diego, CA
TS100 Convention site: http://www.TomSwiftEnterprises.com
TS100 Store: http://www.CafePress.com/TS100
TOM SWIFT INFO: http://www.tomswift.info
Graeme
> > I have mixed feelings about this episode, and that's typical of my
> > feelings for most Season Three episodes of Voyager. The positive:
> > The writer, Lisa Klink
>
> I remember when she started, and they announced a new writer, and we
> were looking forward to seeing what she could do, and her first ep was
> god awful pig slop, and hope waned.
As General Burkhalter would say, "Shut up, Klink!"
Graeme
> I'm going to give you a yellow card for a Godwin's Law violation. :)
>
> -W
How about if we suggested that Berman's memoirs should be titled "Mein
Schmutz"?
Your Name
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c4292726-3157-4296...@y4g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 18, 7:55 am, "Clams Canino" <cc-mar...@earthdink.net> wrote:
> > I'm going to give you a yellow card for a Godwin's Law violation. :)
> >
>
> "Mein Schmutz"?
More like "Mein Crap". :-(
Graeme
responsible for the overall direction the shows took, but they didn't
put a gun to B&B's heads and make them write unimaginative garbage.
Looks like they still have no clue where things went wrong. Which is
not surprising, considering how they showcased "A Night in Sickbay"
for the DVD release, as though it was one of their best ones.
AllHairTheBrag...@startrek.com
Better than a Yellow Star on my shirt with number clusters on my arm..
And exactly when did poor little discriminated against unjustly Nazis
become a sacred protected class to not be spoken of? If I had my way,
Obama would nuke Germany off the face of the earth right this minute.
That would be a good start. Da Da Da Da Da, boom boom, boom boom...
Graeme
> If I had my way,
> Obama would nuke Germany off the face of the earth right this minute.
Most of the ex-Nazis are in Argentina, aren't they? Better hit them
too, just to be safe.
SparkoHeaps
There are a lot of neo-nazis in the U.S. Will that be next?
Your Name
"Star Trek" ... they ARE the idiots who employed Beavis & Butthead (two
morons who shouldn't even allowed to be cleaning the toilets in Hollyweird)
and put them in charge of "StarTrek". :-(
Brad Filippone
That's a little unfair. I'm not fond of what they ultimately did with
the franchise, especially with "Enterprise," but when Rick Berman was
first put in charge in time for "The Next Generation's" third season,
he took a show that had struggled though mostly mediocre storylines
for two years, and he completely turned it around. Season Three of
TNG is easily my favorite season of that series. "Deep Space Nine"
turned out to be a great idea too, "Voyager" much less so, and I've
already said what I think of "Enterprise." My point is, however, that
at first he was doing great things. I think the problem was that he,
and Braga too eventually, stuck around too long until way past the
time that they were out of fresh ideas. They should have passed the
torch to someone else long before "Enterprise" started. To call them
morons is very unfair.
Brad
Anim8rFSK
<8e125aad-33f8-4e81...@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Brad Filippone <Brad_Fi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah. Unfair to morons.
:D
Graeme
> If you think about it logically, it's true that UPN / Paramount DID ruin
> "Star Trek" ... they ARE the idiots who employed Beavis & Butthead
Not really. Rick Berman had been brought in by Gene Roddenberry,
before the show ever got near UPN.
Your Name
"Brad Filippone" <Brad_Fi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8e125aad-33f8-4e81...@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
You're right. They aren't morons ... they're completely and utterly
talentless imbeciles. Even if we hadn't already known that from their
distruction of "Star Trek, it's proven by their own abysmal, and quickly
cancelled, efforts afterwards.
Bast
Agreed.
Morons would have done a bad job, and done it for free.
B&B took big money in exchange for garbage, and were quite proud of doing
so....as such more qualify as non-talented egomaniacs
AllHairTheBrag...@startrek.com
They should have to listen to "The Collected Speeches, Wit and Wisdom
of George Walker Bush" set to repeat for 8 years ala "A Clockwork
Orange." That would make the Devil himself shout "Jesus!"
Ye Gads! That would be as miserable as that scene from "Omega Man" in
the movie theater when Charlton Heston repeats verbatim the film
"Woodstock."
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=nye0Q-XSJGM&feature=related
"Nope, they sure don't make pictures like that anymore."
:-)
Brad Filippone
> "Brad Filippone" <Brad_Filipp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
So you're saying that epsodes like "Yesterday's Enterprise," "The
Defector," 'The Best of Both Worlds I & II" were bad for Star Trek?
Those shows came under Berman's watch. Again, I repeat the shows only
grew consistantly bad after they had overstayed their welcome.
Brad
Your Name
>
> So you're saying that epsodes like "Yesterday's Enterprise," "The
> Defector," 'The Best of Both Worlds I & II" were bad for Star Trek?
> Those shows came under Berman's watch. Again, I repeat the shows only
> grew consistantly bad after they had overstayed their welcome.
Whatever else they may or may not have done, Beavis & Butthead killed proper
"Star Trek" with their inept stupidity. :-(
Brad Filippone
> "Brad Filippone" <Brad_Filipp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
No, their only "stupidity" was in hanging around too long. At the
time of TNG's season three, Bermin was exactly what the franchise
needed.
Brad
Duggy
> "Deep Space Nine" turned out to be a great idea too,
Yes. It was a great idea. Although the idea was called Babylon 5.
===
= DUG.
===
Brad Filippone
being developed at the same time so it's unlikely one was copied from
the other until after their premiers.
Brad
Duggy
> On Jul 25, 11:28 pm,Duggy<Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:> On Jul 23, 1:27 am, Brad Filippone <Brad_Filipp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Deep Space Nine" turned out to be a great idea too,
>
> > Yes. It was a great idea. Although the idea was called Babylon 5.
>
> Very little in common beyond the space station idea.
Exactly. Great idea.
===
= DUG.
===
Your Name
<76d3d76f-0f94-436e...@h1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>, Brad
Filippone <Brad_Fi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 11:28=A0pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > On Jul 23, 1:27=A0am, Brad Filippone <Brad_Filipp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >=A0"Deep Space Nine" turned out to be a great idea too,
> >
> > Yes. =A0It was a great idea. =A0Although the idea was called Babylon 5.
>
> Very little in common beyond the space station idea.
Ahh, so if they had called it "Star Trek: Babylon 5" and not changed
anything else it would have been "exactly the same" ... according to all
the fools around the Internet who can't tell "same" and "different" apart,
and simply rely on being spoonfed a title. :-(
> And they were being developed at the same time so it's unlikely one was
> copied from the other until after their premiers.
That's what they always say. :-)
There are always rumors, leaks, people saying things they shouldn't have,
etc., and when one studio hears a "good idea" another is doing, they very
often clone it. How else do you explain the numerous times such things
happen?
Duggy
> In article
> <76d3d76f-0f94-436e-af3e-1d02dd4de...@h1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>, Brad
>
> Filippone <Brad_Filipp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > And they were being developed at the same time so it's unlikely one was
> > copied from the other until after their premiers.
> That's what they always say. :-)
> There are always rumors, leaks, people saying things they shouldn't have,
> etc., and when one studio hears a "good idea" another is doing, they very
> often clone it.
It makes it easier when the idea was pitched to Paramount before it
was pitched to WB.
===
= DUG.
===
ToolPackinMama
No more blah blah blah! The business aspect is none of our business!
ToolPackinMama
Discuss.
ToolPackinMama
> Without them, we would have been sunk.
>
> Discuss.
>
I have always subscribed to the opinion that:
Doing something imperfectly is better than doing nothing at all.
Your Name
"ToolPackinMama" <philn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i2to90$gq9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> Without them, we would have been sunk.
>
> Discuss.
With them we were blown out of the water, sunk, eaten by sharks and flushed
out their rear end. The two losers should never have been let anywhere near
"Star Trek", nor anything else. :-(
Your Name
It would have been nice if they could have reached the heights of
"imperfect", but unfortunately they started below that and worked their way
even lower. :-(
Duggy
> No more blah blah blah! The business aspect is none of our business!
I have 2 Paramount OKed books about the creation of the series.
If Paramount believed it was none of our business, it wouldn't have
let them be released.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> Without them, we would have been sunk.
>
> Discuss.
It's hard to say. STTNG was better after S3 because of them until the
money started being over spent on DS9 and take from TNG.
So they did good for 2 years.
Someone else may have done better, may have done worse.
If JJ Abrahms holds onto the reigns for 20 years and runs the series
into the ground again we may say the same about him.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> Doing something imperfectly is better than doing nothing at all.
Not true. To imperfectly jump from the roof of one building to
another can lead to death. Not jumping from one building to the other
won't.
With a series like Star Trek, maybe a rest was needed between series
at some stage. Maybe they needed to let go and do nothing by letting
others do something better.
Perhaps, their imprefection caused Enterprise to be axed whereas
someone else would still have 2 series running and multiple movie
series.
===
= DUG.
===
Your Name
"Duggy" <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:a8feaf39-5da8-49cd...@s24g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>
> If JJ Abrahms holds onto the reigns for 20 years and runs the
> series into the ground again we may say the same about him.
Beavis and Butthead have already run the franchise into the ground,
Paramount / UPN supplied the coffin, and JJ Abrams is nailing the lid shut.
:-(
Bast
Many of us aren't waiting twenty years.
We started the day that last lame excuse for a Star Trek movie was released.
Duggy
> Many of us aren't waiting twenty years.
> We started the day that last lame excuse for a Star Trek movie was released.
Surely that "failed to drag the series out of the dust" rather than
"ran the series into the ground"?
===
= DUG.
===
Alfredo deDarc
wrote:
>Blaming UPN reveals that B&B still don't get it. UPN might have been
>responsible for the overall direction the shows took, but they didn't
>put a gun to B&B's heads and make them write unimaginative garbage.
>Looks like they still have no clue where things went wrong. Which is
>not surprising, considering how they showcased "A Night in Sickbay"
>for the DVD release, as though it was one of their best ones.
As it turns out in the interview on the new Blu Ray, the suits nixed
the compeeling proposal for Enterprise. The show was originally not
not to be named Star Trek, because it was to be earthbound for the
first season. No alien races other than the Vulcans, it was going to
deal with many of the political topics dealt with retrospectively in
season 4, the problems humans had with going out into deep space and
telling other cultures- "Here we are, we're new at this, come kick our
asses'.
Enterprise was to launch at the end of season one amid terrorist
attacks, total anarchy on Earth, and all sorts of good dramatic
stuff, a total break with Roddenberry's stifling vision of humanity
united.
The Suits killed Star Trek on TV.