[SPOILERS]: Any "Fair Haven" In A (So-Called) Storm
Bozo the Proctologist
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Oh, wait, that's that other show.......
I'm still not sure of the neutrinic (sp) storm was supposed to be any
real threat; it was the B story while the crew lounged around in the
Holodeck (Yeah, I know, so what ELSE is new? <EG>).
Open on a placid, tranquil, downright soporific little Irish town, where
we see Paris in period attire meeting up with Kim for a wee nip at the
local pub. The Holodoc is there, too- but as the Holopriest for the
eponymous little town of Fair Haven.
Kim wins a game of arm-wrestling against the local muscle as Janeway
comes in to bring them back to duty: some treknobabble storm front is
approaching the ship, and they're going to ride it out. They're
unconcerned enough about the storm that Janeway not only allows the crew
to use the Fair Haven holoprogram full-time but allows Paris the use of
another Holodeck to expand the program.
While visiting the pub, the bartender catches Cap'n Kate's eye, but he's
an unlettered, unimaginative sort, in keeping with Paris's program.
Janeway does some after-hours revisions for his program, making him
taller, more intellectual, and generally building her fantasy man.
The wavefront hits the ship (ho-hum) with barely any more damage than
they'd usually get warping through empty space, so Janeway makes some
good use of her free time with her personalized cyber-stud.
But she suddenly starts avoiding the Holodeck, and her boy-toy is pining
for her over a bottle of whiskey, which inevitably leads to that Trek
tradition: The barroom brawl. Janeway comes into Sickbay to find the
Doctor tending to the injured crewmen, and he hears her confession: She's
*upset* because of how easily she can simply modify him, which isn't a
healthy basis for a *relationship.*
The Doctor explains to her that since she can't very well bed a member of
her crew, a Holofling is her best bet. He leaves her that to think about
as Janeway returns to the Bridge, where the storm is going to get much
worse before they pass the trailing edge. ALL available power has to be
diverted to the deflector, which means compromising the Fair Haven
holoprogram.
While Paris and Kim are looking for what they can salvage after the
storm, Janeway finds out that her Holohoney's program is secure, and
tells the computer to not let her fiddle with his behavioral programming
anymore.
Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
- If you had told me last year that I'd miss "Captain Moron," I would
have told you that crack kills. The *wonders* of a New Millennium.....
<G>
- Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
days?
- On the other hand, at least they mentioned a suitably energetic source
for the storm, the collision of two neutron stars.
- On the gripping hand (Tip o' the hat to Larry Niven) I never got the
impression of any real danger from the storm; the Captain basically gives
the crew shore leave, or the holographic equivalent.
- We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show for
entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
- I am having a REALLY hard time with the idea of Janeway's so-called
dilemma being anything new or out-of-the-ordinary. So the malleability
of holocharacters doesn't make for a stable relationship, what does that
have to do with anything? They're not THERE for any kind of
*relationship,* they're there for a good old-fashioned schnogging during
off-duty hours. They're the 24th Century equivalent of an
Inflate-A-Date. If Janeway would simply let herself enjoy the program,
get her ashes hauled and relax, it would be SO good for her, the crew and
everyone involved.
- Then again, while she told the computer to lock her out from making any
behavioral changes to her pet hologram, she's still free to diddle with
his physical..... appearance. <V,VEG>
- I guess backing up computer files was one of the skills lost during
World War III.
- At the dance, when Janeway told the computer to remove everyone but her
cyber-squeeze, what happened to any Voyager crew in there at the time?
- And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
and Kim?
This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
Next Week: A planet evolves right before our eyes! If they all wind up
as lizards I'm bailing!!
He-Who-Would-Expect-Free-Time-Wouldn't-Be-Such-A-Major-Problem
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at
them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." Jack Handy
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Wavemaker
<snip excellent summary and nits>
>- I am having a REALLY hard time with the idea of Janeway's so-called
>dilemma being anything new or out-of-the-ordinary. So the malleability
>of holocharacters doesn't make for a stable relationship, what does that
>have to do with anything? They're not THERE for any kind of
>*relationship,* they're there for a good old-fashioned schnogging during
>off-duty hours. They're the 24th Century equivalent of an
>Inflate-A-Date. If Janeway would simply let herself enjoy the program,
>get her ashes hauled and relax, it would be SO good for her, the crew and
>everyone involved.
Janeway knows why those holodeck programs are there. The problem starts when she
begins to have strong feelings for a hologram inspite of that. So how does she
deal with looking at a hologram as someone she really loves instead of 24th
century walking vibrator? <g> That's the dilemma.
What you said was what the Doc *should* have said to her. Instead, he gives her
the "what matters is what you feel" speech -- basically saying it's cool if
she's in love with something that isn't real.
>- And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
>before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>and Kim?
I was surprised to see anyone hurt in sickbay after that fight. Don't they have
saftey protocols on those holodecks? So Harry and Tom shouldn't have actually
been injured. Guess the safties were turned off.
TC
<<snip synopsis>>
>Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
>
>- If you had told me last year that I'd miss "Captain Moron," I would
>have told you that crack kills. The *wonders* of a New Millennium.....
><G>
I don't care what you say, Mister I-can-do-better-then-the-writers, I loved
Chaotica. So there!!!
>- Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
>ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
>days?
I'm going to go a little techie here and wonder something. I was under the
impression that impulse engines can push the ship to near lightspeed but
that they normally don't rev up that high due to relativistic effects. The
warp engines were technobabbled out of commision so why didn't they just hit
the throttle to .8 or .9c and get away? So they would have been a few
seconds younger than their twins when they get back to Earth.
>- On the other hand, at least they mentioned a suitably energetic source
>for the storm, the collision of two neutron stars.
>
>- On the gripping hand (Tip o' the hat to Larry Niven) I never got the
>impression of any real danger from the storm; the Captain basically gives
>the crew shore leave, or the holographic equivalent.
I kind of liked that aspect. It wasn't another anomoly-of-the-week that was
going to destroy them. Just a summer squall they had to ride out. And no
alien ships showed up to get into a misunderstanding with and start firing
phase disrupters.
>- We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show for
>entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
>for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
>an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
>
>- I am having a REALLY hard time with the idea of Janeway's so-called
>dilemma being anything new or out-of-the-ordinary. So the malleability
>of holocharacters doesn't make for a stable relationship, what does that
>have to do with anything? They're not THERE for any kind of
>*relationship,* they're there for a good old-fashioned schnogging during
>off-duty hours. They're the 24th Century equivalent of an
>Inflate-A-Date. If Janeway would simply let herself enjoy the program,
>get her ashes hauled and relax, it would be SO good for her, the crew and
>everyone involved.
<G> [...]
- Then again, while she told the computer to lock her out from making any
>behavioral changes to her pet hologram, she's still free to diddle with
>his physical..... appearance. <V,VEG>
I was a little surprised she liked the 80s Don Johnson look. A little
scruff never hurt anyone, huh?
>- I guess backing up computer files was one of the skills lost during
>World War III.
In the 24th century computers don't copy the program from hard drive to RAM
and run the copy. They just dump the program from hard drive to RAM and
then format the hard drive. Then if they don't lose power they dump the RAM
back onto the hard drive when the program is done. I think that they do
have to tell the computer to save the program or it's gone forever. No
autosaves.
>- At the dance, when Janeway told the computer to remove everyone but her
>cyber-squeeze, what happened to any Voyager crew in there at the time?
>
>- And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
>before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>and Kim?
I guess the safety protocols were turned off also. Or did they forget to
save that part of the program once?
>This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
It was goofy
>Next Week: A planet evolves right before our eyes! If they all wind up
>as lizards I'm bailing!!
I think maybe someone on the staff has read "Dragon's Egg"
Timo S Saloniemi
>
>- If you had told me last year that I'd miss "Captain Moron," I would
>have told you that crack kills. The *wonders* of a New Millennium.....
><G>
>
>- Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
>ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
>days?
Was 3 ly the diameter of the wavefront, or its thickness? A thin wall
3 ly high could easily sweep over the ship in a couple of days (and the
ship could be moving forward at moderate sublight speeds, further
shortening the time). Thin as in, say, five lightdays is still thicker
than our solar system is wide.
>- On the other hand, at least they mentioned a suitably energetic source
>for the storm, the collision of two neutron stars.
And the shockwave of the collision could indeed be a thin ring expanding
in just two dimensions.
>- On the gripping hand (Tip o' the hat to Larry Niven) I never got the
>impression of any real danger from the storm; the Captain basically gives
>the crew shore leave, or the holographic equivalent.
Sounds nice for a change.
>- We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show for
>entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
>for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
>an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
And where are the green Orionesses?
>- At the dance, when Janeway told the computer to remove everyone but her
>cyber-squeeze, what happened to any Voyager crew in there at the time?
Weren't there two holodecks in use? The program could have continued
running on that other holodeck, without Janeway (or with a holo-Janeway).
Any crew sharing the room with Janeway could have been transported to
the other one, since the holodeck already uses transporters extensively.
Even in a single holodeck, the computer can "hide" people efficiently,
as often seen. Perhaps it just erected holo-walls around Janeway to
create the impression of an empty room.
>- And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
>before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>and Kim?
"Safety" subroutines malfunctioning again?
Timo Saloniemi
Walt
... I was waiting for the traditional holodeck malfunction due to the
storm. For example, the storm hits and the crew gets locked into the
holodecks, or the holodeck characters stage a mutiny, or whatever.
Isn't that the Star Trek holodeck tradition?
... Too bad Janeway's "hunk" didn't look like Mr. Janeway from the
Millennium Gate. It would be an interesting tie-in.
I also have a question... why did Janeway increase his height by
a mere 3 cm? That is only a little over 1". I would not think
that small of a mod would be worth it.
Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
> ALL available power has to be
> diverted to the deflector, which means compromising the Fair Haven
> holoprogram.
I thought in the first session, it was made very clear that the
holodecks used an independent power source from the rest of the
ship. This was the reason given for the holodecks to still be
in use when the rest of the ship was on a "low power" alert.
HouseQuake
> - At the dance, when Janeway told the computer to remove everyone but her
> cyber-squeeze, what happened to any Voyager crew in there at the time?
"computer, delete all people in the holodeck. oh wait, just the holodeck
characters! oh, shit! computer, erase holodeck command log entries for the
past five minutes, authorization janeway-alpha-theta-3-0-1."
hq
Allen W. McDonnell
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If your still reading and you aint seen it it your own fault.
>
>
>- Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
>ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
>days?
>
This REALLY annoyed me, here we go again, Voyager can travle at .99
lightspeed on impulse drive if need be. BeLanna says they can't go to warp
because of the nuetronic interference making the warp core unstable because
they are too close. What happenned to long range sensors keeping them from
GETTTING TOO CLOSE? Whats wrong with turning around and using full impulse
to reverse course at near light speed until the outrun the interference and
can go to warp speed to avoid it all together? Worst of all, in space a
point source explosion <the collision of two neutron stars> follows the
cubed squared law of physics, the smartest thing to do is go as far away as
fast as you can because the further you are from the source of the blast the
weaker the effects are upon you. By running away for even a few hours they
could have avoided the whole thing by going to warp or at least weakened the
wavefront effect by the time it arrived.
So what do they do? They use the we cant go to warp drive warp core to put
down a subspace anchor? WHAT? The Warp core is unstable so we run it at
high power?
>- On the other hand, at least they mentioned a suitably energetic source
>for the storm, the collision of two neutron stars.
>
Yeah they mentioned the collision of two nuetron stars, but the bad news is,
the likely result from splashing that much mass and energy together is a
BLACK HOLE becuase the gravitational potentials add up to more than light
speed when you put 2.8+ solar masses together. Even if its not quite enough
to create a black hole, we are talking litereally MILLIONS of g's of
gravitational force, does anyone beleive that would cause nuetrons to fly
willy nilly across space? Oh yeah and a Nuetron has a halflife of under 1
day before it decays into a proton <hydrogen that is> unless it is kept
under massive gravitaional compression so if they were 1.5 light years from
the source of the explosion and the wave was traveling at 2/3 light speed
that means 2.25 years have passed since the collision/explosion which means
NO FREE NUETRON RADIATION IS LEFT!!!!!!!
>- On the gripping hand (Tip o' the hat to Larry Niven) I never got the
>impression of any real danger from the storm; the Captain basically gives
>the crew shore leave, or the holographic equivalent.
No kidding, just another day in space right?
--
Life is what YOU make of it, so why are you sitting there reading this?
Allen W. McDonnell
AIM Tanada1945
BTS
Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in article
<20000112.232220....@juno.com>...
<snip story - cause there really wasn't much of one anyway>
>Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
>
> - If you had told me last year that I'd miss "Captain Moron," I would
> have told you that crack kills. The *wonders* of a New Millennium.....
> <G>
hehehehe
> - Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
> ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
> days?
So much for the superior astrometrics sensors that might have warned them
about it and let them avoid it before hand.
> - On the other hand, at least they mentioned a suitably energetic source
> for the storm, the collision of two neutron stars.
True.
> - On the gripping hand (Tip o' the hat to Larry Niven) I never got the
> impression of any real danger from the storm; the Captain basically gives
> the crew shore leave, or the holographic equivalent.
Well, given the nature of the show, there is never any real danger to the
ship, but I know what you mean.
> - We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show for
> entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
> for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
> an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
It would have been nice if someone other than Tom came up with the program.
He is apparently the only one with an interest in this and I thought Harry
was the holoprogram expert.
> - I am having a REALLY hard time with the idea of Janeway's so-called
> dilemma being anything new or out-of-the-ordinary. So the malleability
> of holocharacters doesn't make for a stable relationship, what does that
> have to do with anything? They're not THERE for any kind of
> *relationship,* they're there for a good old-fashioned schnogging during
> off-duty hours. They're the 24th Century equivalent of an
> Inflate-A-Date. If Janeway would simply let herself enjoy the program,
> get her ashes hauled and relax, it would be SO good for her, the crew and
> everyone involved.
Agreed. And this is what the Doc should have reminded her of - that
holoprograms are there for fun, kind of like this ng.
> - Then again, while she told the computer to lock her out from making any
> behavioral changes to her pet hologram, she's still free to diddle with
> his physical..... appearance. <V,VEG>
<snicker>
> - I guess backing up computer files was one of the skills lost during
> World War III.
Along with many records of the time period, unless of course the writers
want to tell a story about the period, in which case all the available
records are... available.
> - At the dance, when Janeway told the computer to remove everyone but her
> cyber-squeeze, what happened to any Voyager crew in there at the time?
For all of the program's popularity, I guess noone on board was using it
but the Captain at the time.
> - And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
> before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
> and Kim?
I wonder why they were injured at all, given the so-called safety
protocols. Is somebody suicidal again. You know those Irish and their
tempers - a brawl was inevitable.
> This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
Pretty much, yeah. I did think that Mulgrew did a good job, as did most of
the rest of the cast. Other than that, the story was dreck.
My one additional nit, because I wasn't paying that much attention by the
end.
Holodeck power systems are incompatible with the ship's main power systems,
or so I thought was established and repeated in prior episodes. This of
course makes the decision to divert power from the holodeck to save the
ship YATI and yet another artificial technobabble problem or moral dilema,
like in "nothing human".
--
later...
b.t.s.
occassionally, I'm callous and strange - btvs
Matthew Hyde
Hmm. Voyager's a spoof. It HAS to be. :)
--
Matt Hyde
Michigan Tech
Math Sciences
Math Lab Consultant
visit http://www.mathlab.mtu.edu/~mdoughy
http://www.sos.mtu.edu/solarcar
Following the path as it leads towards the darkness in the North
Weary strangers' faces show their sympathy, they've seen that hope before
--Pink Floyd "The Narrow Way"
Julianna Feigl
> Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in article
> <20000112.232220....@juno.com>...
> > - We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show for
> > entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
> > for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
> > an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
>
> It would have been nice if someone other than Tom came up with the program.
> He is apparently the only one with an interest in this and I thought Harry
> was the holoprogram expert.
and Tommy is way overused anyway :-(
Julianna
--------
Tuvok:
The main reason to watch Voyager!
Michael Martinez
>In article <20000112.232220....@juno.com>, Bozo says...
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>
>she begins to have strong feelings for a hologram inspite of that. So how does she
>deal with looking at a hologram as someone she really loves instead of 24th
>century walking vibrator? <g> That's the dilemma.
>
>What you said was what the Doc *should* have said to her. Instead, he gives her
>the "what matters is what you feel" speech -- basically saying it's cool if
>she's in love with something that isn't real.
The Holodoc may not hold the same opinion toward other holograms as the
viewing audience.
Walt
I am sure that for most of the crew, having the Captain being there
would kill all the fun. I mean, having to act proper and dignified
in front of your Captain, and all. I would think that having
the Captain there, would be like having your parents at one of
your HS/college parties.
Therefore, I am sure that after the Captain arrived, one-by-one,
the crew all found reasons to leave (and go to the other holodeck?).
Walt
There is an episode where Riker tells LaForge to increase speed
to Warp 6 (from Warp 4). LaForge confirms the command by saying
he is bringing the impulse engines to full.
Brian Barjenbruch wrote:
>
> Full impulse is only 1/4 lightspeed.
Strowbridge
>
> Well, as per LaForge in ST:TNG, "full impulse" is Warp 6.
>
> There is an episode where Riker tells LaForge to increase speed
> to Warp 6 (from Warp 4). LaForge confirms the command by saying
> he is bringing the impulse engines to full.
I think it is best to assume that Geordi was having problems that day.
C.S.Strowbridge
NoOneYouKnow
Additional nits:
- Janeway reminisses about her childhood in Indiana and all the severe
storms they had. I guess that must have been before the weather control
network mentioned in TNG
- Why would the harp on the sign in the pub be flipped in the wrong
direction. And why would they give Tom crap about it. I assume that Tom
would simply have told the computer to create an authentic Irish pub, not
actually designed every detail. Worst case he would have told the computer
to put an appropriate plaque on the wall. The image must have been wrong in
the computer to begin with.
- Yet another "long-time interest of the week" when we find out that Janeway
is an aficionado of Irish history. At least she didn't save the day with it.
One of the writers must have forgotten that page of the script in the
bathroom, along with the holodeck-gone-awry plot-line I'm sure every viewer
was waiting for (I was almost disappointed).
---JRE---
Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:20000112.232220....@juno.com...
> It's Irish Stereotypes Night on "Voyager!!"
[snip]
Nelson Lu
>... Too bad Janeway's "hunk" didn't look like Mr. Janeway from the
>Millennium Gate. It would be an interesting tie-in.
Ew, you want her to want to have sex with her
great-great-great-....-grandfather?
Aaron
says...
>cyber-squeeze, what happened to any Voyager crew in there at the time?
It seemed fairly obvious that Janeway felt a bit uh... consciensious
about her relationship with a hologram. She even looked a bit embarassed
when Chuckles spotted her in period dress with Sullivan. =)
So it is quite probable that there were no actual crew at the dance.
Just Janeway, and a bunch of holographic drunk irishmen/women.
And the entire room would not need to be the whole holodeck... just
one small room created in it. She did specify to delete only
characters in the room, not all the characters currently running.
I imagine the distinction was intentional.
>- And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
>before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>and Kim?
Hey, I'm sure both Paris and Kim were more then happy to join in
the festivities. =)
Wouldn't be the first time.
They're after the authenticity... turning off a bar fight just
would seem wrong.
Admitedly, one wonders about the safety protocols... but who's
to say the crew members didn't get a bit rambunctious and
cause the damage to each other. =)
I can see Harry popping Tom in the chaos. *grin*
>This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
Agreed!
Michael Robinson
getting killed, not to prevent them from getting hurt at all. I recall
a TNG episode where either Wesley or a friend got hurt doing something.
Also, what good would combat training programs be if you couldn't get
knocked around a bit.
* Robinson
Aaron wrote:
>
> In article <20000112.232220....@juno.com>, cue...@juno.com
> says...
> >
> >- At the dance, when Janeway told the computer to remove everyone but her
> >cyber-squeeze, what happened to any Voyager crew in there at the time?
>
> It seemed fairly obvious that Janeway felt a bit uh... consciensious
> about her relationship with a hologram. She even looked a bit embarassed
> when Chuckles spotted her in period dress with Sullivan. =)
> So it is quite probable that there were no actual crew at the dance.
> Just Janeway, and a bunch of holographic drunk irishmen/women.
> And the entire room would not need to be the whole holodeck... just
> one small room created in it. She did specify to delete only
> characters in the room, not all the characters currently running.
> I imagine the distinction was intentional.
>
> >- And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
> >before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
> >and Kim?
>
> Hey, I'm sure both Paris and Kim were more then happy to join in
> the festivities. =)
> Wouldn't be the first time.
> They're after the authenticity... turning off a bar fight just
> would seem wrong.
>
> Admitedly, one wonders about the safety protocols... but who's
> to say the crew members didn't get a bit rambunctious and
> cause the damage to each other. =)
>
> I can see Harry popping Tom in the chaos. *grin*
>
> >This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
>
> Agreed!
--
"No one questions the assassination of a Captain who disobeys prime
orders of the Empire."
-- Ensign Pavel Chekov, "Mirror, Mirror"
Captain Infinity
In article <387E0D76...@Early.com>
Walt wrote:
>I am sure that for most of the crew, having the Captain being there
>would kill all the fun. I mean, having to act proper and dignified
>in front of your Captain, and all. I would think that having
>the Captain there, would be like having your parents at one of
>your HS/college parties.
>
>Therefore, I am sure that after the Captain arrived, one-by-one,
>the crew all found reasons to leave (and go to the other holodeck?).
You're making me sad. :'(
**
Captain Infinity
Matthew Singer
news:387E1503...@home.com...
Or it could be that they were having a problem and needed more power.
--
"I'm to sexy for my light saber..." The lost sayings of Yoda
Matthew Singer P.h.D. (Post hole Digger)
mats...@echoweb.net sup...@bethsinger.com sup...@singerelectronics.com
ICQ- 14903245 | AIM- Hazmat4700 | Yahoo- matsingr
http://www.singerelectronics.com/haz/haz.htm - A pathetic descendent of a
home page
> C.S.Strowbridge
Senor Nalgas
are spherical, so what Voyager just did last night is penetrate the
surface of a sphere. So now they're inside this spherical explosion,
and in a few weeks we can expect them to bust through the other end. I
can't hardly wait.
In article <387d...@news.provide.net>,
"Allen W. McDonnell" <tan...@provide.net> wrote:
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> If your still reading and you aint seen it it your own fault.
>
> >
> >
> >- Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed,
and
> >ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter
of
> >days?
> >
> >- On the other hand, at least they mentioned a suitably energetic
source
> >for the storm, the collision of two neutron stars.
> >
> Yeah they mentioned the collision of two nuetron stars, but the bad
news is,
> the likely result from splashing that much mass and energy together
is a
> BLACK HOLE becuase the gravitational potentials add up to more than
light
> speed when you put 2.8+ solar masses together. Even if its not quite
enough
> to create a black hole, we are talking litereally MILLIONS of g's of
> gravitational force, does anyone beleive that would cause nuetrons to
fly
> willy nilly across space? Oh yeah and a Nuetron has a halflife of
under 1
> day before it decays into a proton <hydrogen that is> unless it is
kept
> under massive gravitaional compression so if they were 1.5 light
years from
> the source of the explosion and the wave was traveling at 2/3 light
speed
> that means 2.25 years have passed since the collision/explosion which
means
> NO FREE NUETRON RADIATION IS LEFT!!!!!!!
>
> >- On the gripping hand (Tip o' the hat to Larry Niven) I never got
the
> >impression of any real danger from the storm; the Captain basically
gives
> >the crew shore leave, or the holographic equivalent.
>
> No kidding, just another day in space right?
>
> --
> Life is what YOU make of it, so why are you sitting there reading
this?
>
> Allen W. McDonnell
>
> AIM Tanada1945
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Masked Man
how impulse speed compares to warp speed or light speed, as long as
they settle on one standard and apply it consistently. They havent
done that, imo
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:42:51 -0500, Walt <Wa...@Early.com> wrote:
|Well, as per LaForge in ST:TNG, "full impulse" is Warp 6.
|
|There is an episode where Riker tells LaForge to increase speed
|to Warp 6 (from Warp 4). LaForge confirms the command by saying
|he is bringing the impulse engines to full.
|
Angry Angel®
"Michael Robinson" <robi...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:387E345B...@pilot.msu.edu...
> I tend to think that safety protocols are there to keep people from
> getting killed, not to prevent them from getting hurt at all. I recall
> a TNG episode where either Wesley or a friend got hurt doing something.
> Also, what good would combat training programs be if you couldn't get
> knocked around a bit.
>
> * Robinson
> Aaron wrote:
I can agree with that.
Angry Angel®
--------------------
Janeway Rocks!
"Sometimes first contact is last contact." Captain Kathryn Janeway
Bozo the Proctologist
In article <20000112.232220....@juno.com> Bozo the
Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> writes:
>It's Irish Stereotypes Night on "Voyager!!"
>
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>>Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
>>
>>- If you had told me last year that I'd miss "Captain Moron," I would
>>have told you that crack kills. The *wonders* of a New Millennium.....
>><G>
>>
>>- Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
>>ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
>>days?
>
>Was 3 ly the diameter of the wavefront, or its thickness? A thin wall
>3 ly high could easily sweep over the ship in a couple of days (and the
>ship could be moving forward at moderate sublight speeds, further
>shortening the time). Thin as in, say, five lightdays is still thicker
>than our solar system is wide.
I thought 3 ly was the diameter of the space already enclosed by the
wave. I'm not about to watch that pieve of Trek again just to find out
for sure! <EG>
<Snip>
>- And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
>before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>and Kim?
"Safety" subroutines malfunctioning again?
And others pointed out a blatant nit I overlooked (NOT my fault; it was
more interesting watching the cat molest an old sandal): Holodeck power
and ships power are supposed to be completely independent of each other,
so how could they suddenly divert holopower to the deflector?
He-Who-Hopes-Next-Week's-Ep-Doesn't-Bite
Double the recipe? But my oven won't go up to 700 F!
Zathras
> the
> storm. For example, the storm hits and the crew gets locked into
> the
> holodecks, or the holodeck characters stage a mutiny, or whatever.
> Isn't that the Star Trek holodeck tradition?
They're no doubt saving that for the sequel.
> I also have a question... why did Janeway increase his height by
> a mere 3 cm? That is only a little over 1". I would not think
> that small of a mod would be worth it.
And yet, it looked like the hologram gained three inches in height.
Z
"We live in an imperfect universe."
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Wavemaker
>
>Holodeck characters can't really be compared with blow-up dolls. A doll
>is a very poor imitation of a person, but holodeck technology has evolved
>to the level that it can be very difficult to tell them apart from real
>people. We've seen this time and again, and the issues have been very
>sticky, all the way back to TNG's episodes with Moriarty. The holodeck
>seems to be able to create sentient beings -- one of these days one of
>them will have a trial like Data's and be afforded the rights of corporeal
>beings.
I'm reminded of "Living Witness." In the future society the Doc finds himself
in, holograms, IIRC, have indeed been recognized as sentient beings. I wonder if
Star Fleet will ever reach the same conclusion. Or, if not that, there will be
at least a change in attitude towards their potential for sentience. I can
imagine the Doc's own self-awareness challenging how holograms are looked at
when they finally get home.
John Kocurek
>
> This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
>
It turned out better than I thought. After they set up the episode, I
was afraid we would see the entire crew on the holodeck when the wave
front hit, the holodeck goes haywire, safety protocols and controls are
cut out, and then things in Fairhaven start to go really weird. As it
turns out, 6th dimensional aliens have infiltrated the holo deck
computer, and are looking to invade, dressed as Nazis. And then, the
warp core starts to destabilize...
John Kocurek
SJohnson
[snip a *devastatingly* funny recap of this pile of guano]
> Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
>
> - If you had told me last year that I'd miss "Captain Moron," I would
> have told you that crack kills. The *wonders* of a New Millennium.....
> <G>
Gimme 1989, any day...
> - Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
> ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
> days?
oh dear god, Bozo; don't start... ROTFL!!!
[snip]
> - We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show for
> entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
> for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
> an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
Hell, right about now, m'man, I wouldn't know WHAT to expect from Tom in
the ol' holo-design department; maybe one about an Irish family fleeing
the hordes of Planet X in a stolen PT boat powered by a pair of 1.8L
DOHC engines...
[snip]
> This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
Sorry, Bozo... this one had more bad blahs than good.
SJ
ta'HoS
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word: "decabot??"
-ta'HoS
Barry Margolin
>What you said was what the Doc *should* have said to her. Instead, he gives her
>the "what matters is what you feel" speech -- basically saying it's cool if
>she's in love with something that isn't real.
Doesn't it make sense that he would say something like this? After all,
he's a hologram, and he takes offense when he's not treated as a person.
Holodeck characters can't really be compared with blow-up dolls. A doll
is a very poor imitation of a person, but holodeck technology has evolved
to the level that it can be very difficult to tell them apart from real
people. We've seen this time and again, and the issues have been very
sticky, all the way back to TNG's episodes with Moriarty. The holodeck
seems to be able to create sentient beings -- one of these days one of
them will have a trial like Data's and be afforded the rights of corporeal
beings.
--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
GTE Internetworking, Burlington, MA
Timo S Saloniemi
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>This REALLY annoyed me, here we go again, Voyager can travle at .99
>lightspeed on impulse drive if need be. BeLanna says they can't go to warp
>because of the nuetronic interference making the warp core unstable because
>they are too close. What happenned to long range sensors keeping them from
>GETTING TOO CLOSE?
Dunno (although I suspect the sensors simply reported a harmless
yet rare astrophysical phenomenon, and we know those attract Janeway
like so much interstellar flypaper - the warp-inhibiting factor
probably wasn't predictable from the data)...
>Whats wrong with turning around and using full impulse
>to reverse course at near light speed until the outrun the interference and
>can go to warp speed to avoid it all together?
...But this is easier to explain. Turning around and accelerating in
the other direction wouldn't prevent the ship from initially being
engulfed by the wavefront. While the impulse drive may be impressive
and may even allow .99 lightspeed in some conditions, its ACCELERATION
is a factor, too. The Tech Manual on the E-D speaks of something like
a thousand gees, which would give about two hours to decelerate from
the normal impulse speed of .25c, two more to accelerate to the other
direction, and perhaps four more to exceed the speed of the wavefront
(although for these final hours, one has to summon Einstein - the time
from the ship's pov will be less). The wave would have overtaken the
ship by then.
>>- On the other hand, at least they mentioned a suitably energetic source
>>for the storm, the collision of two neutron stars.
>>
>Yeah they mentioned the collision of two nuetron stars, but the bad news is,
>the likely result from splashing that much mass and energy together is a
>BLACK HOLE becuase the gravitational potentials add up to more than light
>speed when you put 2.8+ solar masses together. Even if its not quite enough
>to create a black hole, we are talking litereally MILLIONS of g's of
>gravitational force, does anyone beleive that would cause nuetrons to fly
>willy nilly across space?
Probably yes. There would be initial ejecta, and lots of matter being
accelerated back into the black hole and radiating energetically all
the way in. Surely a wave of *something* would erupt (although a cloud of
free neutrons wouldn't be my very first guess...).
>Oh yeah and a Nuetron has a halflife of under 1 day before it decays into
>a proton <hydrogen that is> unless it is kept under massive gravitaional
>compression so if they were 1.5 light years from the source of the
>explosion and the wave was traveling at 2/3 light speed that means 2.25
>years have passed since the collision/explosion which means
>NO FREE NUETRON RADIATION IS LEFT!!!!!!!
Yup. The half-life's about 11 minutes. Even counting relativistic effects
from the .67c travel, there shouldn't be too many free neutrons left.
Then again, the wave could simply be a cloud of radioactives that
constantly generates new free neutrons.
Timo Saloniemi
Sergey Bukhman
We're not leaving! We're just adding rooms to the main holodeck!
--
Sergey
"Zed wantd nookie and the brother of brothers blame her for the
destruction of their planet."
-Dan Tropea
Timo S Saloniemi
>Walt wrote:
>>
>> Well, as per LaForge in ST:TNG, "full impulse" is Warp 6.
>>
>> There is an episode where Riker tells LaForge to increase speed
>> to Warp 6 (from Warp 4). LaForge confirms the command by saying
>> he is bringing the impulse engines to full.
>
It's possible that the writer of, was it "Conspiracy", was just thinking
that an increase of one c is always a full impulse and that w6 is 6c...
Anyway, "full impulse" most likely simply means "full throttle". If
we trust the TNG Tech Manual's idea that the E-D could accelerate
at a thousand gee when going full throttle, then reaching .25
lightspeed would take about two hours, after which one would
automatically throttle down because of the "speed limit" of risking
relativistic effects. So the speed attained by "full impulse"
would depend on how long one was allowed to accelerate - in
fast-paced close combat, "full impulse" would not even get you up
to .1 lightspeed (which is consistent with what we see on screen).
Timo Saloniemi
IML
>> > - We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show
for
>> > entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
>> > for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
>> > an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
>>
>> It would have been nice if someone other than Tom came up with the
program.
>> He is apparently the only one with an interest in this and I thought
Harry
>> was the holoprogram expert.
>
>and Tommy is way overused anyway :-(
>
>
Why are Harry and Tom (and increasingly Seven) the only ones who ever do
*anything* technical?
Isn't Torres the *best engineer* Voyager has?
She is the Chief afterall.
Fiona
ianmarglee(at)ozemail.com.au
Allen W. McDonnell
>>>
>>> Well, as per LaForge in ST:TNG, "full impulse" is Warp 6.
>>>
>>> There is an episode where Riker tells LaForge to increase speed
>>> to Warp 6 (from Warp 4). LaForge confirms the command by saying
>>> he is bringing the impulse engines to full.
>>
>>I think it is best to assume that Geordi was having problems that day.
>It's possible that the writer of, was it "Conspiracy", was just thinking
>that an increase of one c is always a full impulse and that w6 is 6c...
>
>Anyway, "full impulse" most likely simply means "full throttle". If
>we trust the TNG Tech Manual's idea that the E-D could accelerate
>at a thousand gee when going full throttle, then reaching .25
>lightspeed would take about two hours, after which one would
>automatically throttle down because of the "speed limit" of risking
>relativistic effects. So the speed attained by "full impulse"
>would depend on how long one was allowed to accelerate - in
>fast-paced close combat, "full impulse" would not even get you up
>to .1 lightspeed (which is consistent with what we see on screen).
>
>Timo Saloniemi
>
Two problems with this, #1 Full impulse is .99c, not .25c. .25c is one
quarter impulse and the reason they prefer .25c is retarded because it takes
up to .8c before reletivistic effects become noticibly large. You could
literally travel several light years at .8c and only have a few days clock
difference when you arrive so the so called .25c impulse limit is goofy.
#2 Impulse works by the same basic principals as warp drive, i.e. is
distorts subspace to make the ship move. It also fires off a stream of
ionized fusion waste as we saw in TUC but the basis of Impulse drive is
subspace distortion coupled with mass lightening feilds coupled with
propulsive release of ionized fusion waste. To claim that it takes 2 hours
to accellerate to .25c is totally unfounded and unprovable.
Walt
greant-...-grandmother, that she would be attracted to a
similar looking man. I guess kind of a gene-based inherited
interest in men that look a certain way, and have a certain
personality.
"I married a man, just like the man, that married dear old
grandma"
Nelson Lu wrote:
>
> In article <387DCC97...@Early.com>, Walt <Wa...@Early.com> wrote:
>
Walt
the computer to remove the clothing off the holographic
barmaid or bartender???
Captain Infinity
In article <387f...@news.provide.net>
Allen W. McDonnell wrote:
peep?
>--
>Life is what YOU make of it, so why are you sitting there reading this?
PEEP!
**
Captain Infinity
Lord Edam de Fromage
"Allen W. McDonnell" <tan...@provide.net> wrote:
> Two problems with this, #1 Full impulse is .99c, not .25c. .25c is
one
> quarter impulse and the reason they prefer .25c is retarded because
it takes
> up to .8c before reletivistic effects become noticibly large. You
could
> literally travel several light years at .8c and only have a few days
clock
> difference when you arrive so the so called .25c impulse limit is
goofy.
To you and I the time differences would not make that much of a
difference maybe, but when you consider that the ship is then possibly
going to go flying off at a few thousand times c and base their
position on the galactic version of the GPS even one billionth of a
second difference between their clocks and the gps clocks would mean
they are several thousand km off at the end of the warp run.
Walt
I thought she was made Chief Engineer, not because of her
abilities, but to swamp her with so much work, she would
not have time to get into trouble. Though, it seems Torres
still seems to find the time.
Walt
network only got involved when the weather got sever enough to
cause damage. Lightning, which is doing nothing much more than
scaring a little girl, doesn't warrant action.
NoOneYouKnow wrote:
>
> Additional nits:
> - Janeway reminisses about her childhood in Indiana and all the severe
> storms they had. I guess that must have been before the weather control
> network mentioned in TNG
>
Masked Man
On 13 Jan 2000 23:07:26 -0800, Wavemaker
Masked Man
lovin' the Voyager crew gets is starvation rations, at best, unless
Neelix is lacing all their food with saltpeter....
Bozo the Proctologist
Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in article
<20000112.232220....@juno.com>...
> It's Irish Stereotypes Night on "Voyager!!"
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> Oh, wait, that's that other show.......
<snip story - cause there really wasn't much of one anyway>
>Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
>
>> - Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed,
and
>> ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
>> days?
>
>So much for the superior astrometrics sensors that might have warned
them
>about it and let them avoid it before hand.
Another "Voyager" tradition; remember that big bright nebula in "One,"
where they wait until they're on top of it to determine if it's too
dangerous to cross?
Okay, actually it's a Starfleet tradition; remember in "First Contact"
when the Big E crew doesn't even bother to turn on the viewscreen until
they reach Earth?
>> - I am having a REALLY hard time with the idea of Janeway's so-called
>> dilemma being anything new or out-of-the-ordinary. So the
malleability
>> of holocharacters doesn't make for a stable relationship, what does
that
>> have to do with anything? They're not THERE for any kind of
>> *relationship,* they're there for a good old-fashioned schnogging
during
>> off-duty hours. They're the 24th Century equivalent of an
>> Inflate-A-Date. If Janeway would simply let herself enjoy the
program,
>> get her ashes hauled and relax, it would be SO good for her, the crew
and
>> everyone involved.
>
>Agreed. And this is what the Doc should have reminded her of - that
>holoprograms are there for fun, kind of like this ng.
Oh, so THAT'S what we're here for!! <G>
>> - I guess backing up computer files was one of the skills lost during
>> World War III.
>
>Along with many records of the time period, unless of course the writers
>want to tell a story about the period, in which case all the available
>records are... available.
I know..... how healthy can it be for a society to be THAT fixated on the
past?
>> - And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
>> before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>> and Kim?
>
>I wonder why they were injured at all, given the so-called safety
>protocols. Is somebody suicidal again. You know those Irish and their
>tempers - a brawl was inevitable.
My current theory is that there are NO "holodeck safety mechanisms."
Never were any, merely something some canny marketing drone made up in
order to sell the damned things to Starfleet. The scene in "Pathfinder"
when the Security man is unaffected by HoloTorres's phaser was simply a
malfunction, due to Barclay's overuse of the holodeck.
>> This ep certainly wasn't good, but was more blah than bad.
>
>Pretty much, yeah. I did think that Mulgrew did a good job, as did most
of
>the rest of the cast. Other than that, the story was dreck.
Even Chakotay showed some different facial expressions..... maybe someone
at Paramount does read here! <G>
>My one additional nit, because I wasn't paying that much attention by
the
>end.
>
>Holodeck power systems are incompatible with the ship's main power
systems,
>or so I thought was established and repeated in prior episodes. This of
>course makes the decision to divert power from the holodeck to save the
>ship YATI and yet another artificial technobabble problem or moral
dilema,
>like in "nothing human".
IIRC, someone suggested another *level* to our regular YATIs: YAVC; "Yet
another Voyager Cock-up."
He--Who-Isn't-Looking-Forward-To-Revisiting-Fans-Heaving-Ummmm-I-Meant-Fa
ir-Haven
Darmok and Windows, when computers slowed dramatically.
TC
>
>
>Bozo the Proctologist wrote >>
>>Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
>>
>> - Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
>> ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
>> days?
>
>So much for the superior astrometrics sensors that might have warned them
>about it and let them avoid it before hand.
From past episodes it seems the range of Voyager's sensors is about a
hundred yards.
>
>> - We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show for
>> entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
>> for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
>> an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
>
>It would have been nice if someone other than Tom came up with the program.
> He is apparently the only one with an interest in this and I thought Harry
>was the holoprogram expert.
The majority of the crew is kept in stasis until they're needed for
something or other. They don't get off time to think of anything like
holoprogramming.
>> - I am having a REALLY hard time with the idea of Janeway's so-called
>> dilemma being anything new or out-of-the-ordinary. So the malleability
>> of holocharacters doesn't make for a stable relationship, what does that
>> have to do with anything? They're not THERE for any kind of
>> *relationship,* they're there for a good old-fashioned schnogging during
>> off-duty hours. They're the 24th Century equivalent of an
>> Inflate-A-Date. If Janeway would simply let herself enjoy the program,
>> get her ashes hauled and relax, it would be SO good for her, the crew and
>> everyone involved.
>
>Agreed. And this is what the Doc should have reminded her of - that
>holoprograms are there for fun, kind of like this ng.
He should have been a little worried that she was becoming emotionally
involved.
>
>> - And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
>> before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>> and Kim?
>
>I wonder why they were injured at all, given the so-called safety
>protocols. Is somebody suicidal again. You know those Irish and their
>tempers - a brawl was inevitable.
Hey!! you wanna step outside and say that?
TC
>
>--
>later...
>b.t.s.
>occassionally, I'm callous and strange - btvs
>
>
NoOneYouKnow
and causes millions of dollars in damage. You would think they would want to
control it somehow. Maybe she was hearing it strike lightning rods or
something.
---JRE---
Walt <Wa...@Early.com> wrote in message news:387F4BC8...@Early.com...
Michael January
:
>>>Walt wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, as per LaForge in ST:TNG, "full impulse" is Warp 6.
>>>>
>>>> There is an episode where Riker tells LaForge to increase speed
>>>> to Warp 6 (from Warp 4). LaForge confirms the command by saying
>>>> he is bringing the impulse engines to full.
>>>
>>>I think it is best to assume that Geordi was having problems that day.
>.>
>>It's possible that the writer of, was it "Conspiracy", was just thinking
>>that an increase of one c is always a full impulse and that w6 is 6c...
>>
>>Anyway, "full impulse" most likely simply means "full throttle". If
>>we trust the TNG Tech Manual's idea that the E-D could accelerate
>>at a thousand gee when going full throttle, then reaching .25
>>lightspeed would take about two hours, after which one would
>>automatically throttle down because of the "speed limit" of risking
>>relativistic effects. So the speed attained by "full impulse"
>>would depend on how long one was allowed to accelerate - in
>>fast-paced close combat, "full impulse" would not even get you up
>>to .1 lightspeed (which is consistent with what we see on screen).
>>
>>Timo Saloniemi
>>
>
>Two problems with this, #1 Full impulse is .99c, not .25c. .25c is one
>quarter impulse and the reason they prefer .25c is retarded because it takes
>up to .8c before reletivistic effects become noticibly large. You could
>literally travel several light years at .8c and only have a few days clock
>difference when you arrive so the so called .25c impulse limit is goofy.
>#2 Impulse works by the same basic principals as warp drive, i.e. is
>distorts subspace to make the ship move. It also fires off a stream of
>ionized fusion waste as we saw in TUC but the basis of Impulse drive is
>subspace distortion coupled with mass lightening feilds coupled with
>propulsive release of ionized fusion waste. To claim that it takes 2 hours
>to accellerate to .25c is totally unfounded and unprovable.
>
LOL
Full Impulse IS 0.25 c, do a bit more research, troll. Your fanaticism
is addling your wits.
Furthermore, we know for a fact 1/4 Impulse is slower than a bus, just
look how long it took the A to get out of spacedock when Kirk ordered
1/4 Impulse in the movie.
Also, we know the highest acceleration given in the TM is 10km.s-2
which ain't enough by far to get to lightspeed in anything less than
several days.
lastly, all screenshots of the E under impulse power especially during
combat shows it is hellishly slow, hardly travelling at anywhere close
to light-speed. We also have never seen ANY doppler effects (redshift,
etc.) which is indicative of a ship travelling close to light-speed.
South Africa is the only nation to have successfully developed nuclear weapons,
and then voluntarily relinquish that capability.
Julianna Feigl
>
> >> > - We GET the frigging joke already: We're watching a futuristic show
> for
> >> > entertainment, so our future heroes make up reconstructions of the past
> >> > for THEIR fun and games. Still, from what I've seen of Tom, I'd expect
> >> > an Argelian-style bar to show up in his holo-library.
> >>
> >> It would have been nice if someone other than Tom came up with the
> program.
> >> He is apparently the only one with an interest in this and I thought
> Harry
> >> was the holoprogram expert.
> >
> >
> >
> *anything* technical?
> Isn't Torres the *best engineer* Voyager has?
> She is the Chief afterall.
>
Sigh! Harry is not that much of a problem since he's underused as well,
but Tommy (and sometimes Seven) really get on my nerves when others are
once again in the background :-(
C. Mcfarland
delurking
All the way back to Minuet, I'd have said.
Given the sophistication of the EMH programs, I would think that the
definition of "real person" would need to be altered to a spec of
sentient, self-aware, something like that. Mere biology doesn't cut it any
more.
Catherine
relurking
Richard Van Fossan
"Nelson Lu" <n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
news:85l8su$eq5$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU...
> In article <387DCC97...@Early.com>, Walt <Wa...@Early.com> wrote:
>
> >... Too bad Janeway's "hunk" didn't look like Mr. Janeway from the
> >Millennium Gate. It would be an interesting tie-in.
>
> Ew, you want her to want to have sex with her
> great-great-great-....-grandfather?
Well, if he's THAT great, why not?
C. Mcfarland
On 13 Jan 2000, Wavemaker wrote:
> bar...@alum.mit.edu says...
> >
> >Holodeck characters can't really be compared with blow-up dolls. A doll
> >is a very poor imitation of a person, but holodeck technology has evolved
> >to the level that it can be very difficult to tell them apart from real
> >people. We've seen this time and again, and the issues have been very
> >sticky, all the way back to TNG's episodes with Moriarty. The holodeck
> >seems to be able to create sentient beings -- one of these days one of
> >them will have a trial like Data's and be afforded the rights of corporeal
> >beings.
>
> I'm reminded of "Living Witness." In the future society the Doc finds himself
> in, holograms, IIRC, have indeed been recognized as sentient beings. I wonder if
> Star Fleet will ever reach the same conclusion. Or, if not that, there will be
> at least a change in attitude towards their potential for sentience. I can
> imagine the Doc's own self-awareness challenging how holograms are looked at
> when they finally get home.
>
I thought of that too, when the thread took this direction.
I have to wonder if people aren't missing the whole point of the episode.
I saw the episode not as just another stupid holodeck fantasy but an an
(weak) attempt to take a 3-way look at the issue of romantic feelings:
1. How does the Captain deal with normal human emotional needs under the
circumstance of being lost in the Delta Quandrant. Research as well
documented that not having these needs met can affect other aspects of our
health, well-being and ultimately how we function. Janeway has already
succumbed once to depression to the point of neglecting her crew.
2. If someone meets your needs it is natural to fall in love, even if that
person isn't "real" or if the relationship has no "normal" future. Do you
accept the relationship for what it can provide or reject it because it
can't provide everything?
3. The hologram may not have been self-aware in that he didn't know he was
a hologram, but he experienced real feelings: love, pain at rejection,
anger. In other words, he responded like a "real" person.
I guess there could also be a 4th: Do you enter a relationship because of
who the person you love really is, or because of who you want that person
to be? As the doctor pointed out, people often try to change their
partners so did they fall for the person or did they fall for the person
they thought their partner should be?
Anyway, these are just my ideas. I've noticed that folks seem to spend a
lot of time on the surface of Trek by picking at technobabble, etc., but
ignore what has always been Trek's strengths, the underlying themes of the
stories that bring our own human foibles into the light for examination.
Catherine
Zathras
<BogusA...@SpammersSuckBigTime.Com> wrote:
> But lightning kills more than 100 people every year (more than
> tornados),
> and causes millions of dollars in damage. You would think they
> would want to
> control it somehow. Maybe she was hearing it strike lightning rods
> or
> something.
Lightning is a necessary part of Earth's biosphere, fixing nitrates(?)
for plants to use.
> ---JRE---
> Walt <Wa...@Early.com> wrote in message
> news:387F4BC8...@Early.com...
> > I had wondered that to, but chalked it up to that the Weather
> Control
> > network only got involved when the weather got sever enough to
> > cause damage. Lightning, which is doing nothing much more than
> > scaring a little girl, doesn't warrant action.
> >
> > NoOneYouKnow wrote:
> > >
> > > Additional nits:
> > > - Janeway reminisses about her childhood in Indiana and all
> the severe
> > > storms they had. I guess that must have been before the
> weather control
> > > network mentioned in TNG
> > >
We are the Braga. Continuity is futile. Trek's previously established
history will be revised to suit anything we happen to write. The past
will be ignored.
Z
"We live in an imperfect universe."
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Mortis
<20c2f050...@usw-ex0107-042.remarq.com>, in which Zathras
<warpvshyp...@hotmail.com.invalid> typed:
>In article <4IKf4.4743$v31.4...@ptah.visi.com>, "NoOneYouKnow"
><BogusA...@SpammersSuckBigTime.Com> wrote:
>> But lightning kills more than 100 people every year (more than
>> tornados),
>> and causes millions of dollars in damage. You would think they
>> would want to
>> control it somehow. Maybe she was hearing it strike lightning rods
>> or
>> something.
>
>Lightning is a necessary part of Earth's biosphere, fixing nitrates(?)
>for plants to use.
Which is just one of the reasons that a weather control network is
really quite silly....
Mortis
Master of the Unknown, KPS
Nebulosis Defunctus
"Lions sing and hills take flight
The moon by day and the sun by night
Blind man, deaf woman, jackdaw fool
Let the Lord of Chaos rule"
-Children's Rhyme, The Fourth Age
Helen & Bob
Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article <85jp3i$29...@drn.newsguy.com>, Wavemaker
> <Wavemake...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> >What you said was what the Doc *should* have said to her. Instead, he gives her
> >the "what matters is what you feel" speech -- basically saying it's cool if
> >she's in love with something that isn't real.
>
> Doesn't it make sense that he would say something like this? After all,
> he's a hologram, and he takes offense when he's not treated as a person.
>
> Holodeck characters can't really be compared with blow-up dolls. A doll
> is a very poor imitation of a person, but holodeck technology has evolved
> to the level that it can be very difficult to tell them apart from real
> people. We've seen this time and again, and the issues have been very
> sticky, all the way back to TNG's episodes with Moriarty. The holodeck
> seems to be able to create sentient beings -- one of these days one of
> them will have a trial like Data's and be afforded the rights of corporeal
> beings.--
I think they are extremely close to that with the Holodoc right now.
Bob
Masked Man
Tim Bruening
Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
> Summery deleted on Holodeck:
>
> Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
> Okay, the neutrinic storm thingie is expanding at 2/3 lightspeed, and
> ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
> days?
> 3.6 lightyears. My assumption was that Voyager just happened to be about 10
> light-hours from the wavefront when Voyager detected it (the storm was
> going to hit in 15 hours). Since the storm covered 3.6 lightyears, why
> didn't Voyager's sensors (able to detect stars and planets thousands of
> light years away) detect it when Voyager was still well away?
> - And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
> before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
> and Kim?
When the fight started, why didn't anyone yell "FREEZE PROGRAM!"?
Allen W. McDonnell
>>
>> Full Impulse IS 0.25 c, do a bit more research, troll. Your fanaticism
>> is addling your wits.
>>
>> Furthermore, we know for a fact 1/4 Impulse is slower than a bus, just
>> look how long it took the A to get out of spacedock when Kirk ordered
>> 1/4 Impulse in the movie.
>>
>> Also, we know the highest acceleration given in the TM is 10km.s-2
>> which ain't enough by far to get to lightspeed in anything less than
>> several days.
Hey Mike what did I do to deserve being called a Troll?
OFFICIAL ST:TNG tech manual page 75, halfway down the first paragraph.
"High impulse operations, specifically velocities above 0.75c, may require
added power from the Saucer Module engines. These operations, while
acceptable options during some missions, are often avoided due to
relativistic considerations and their inherent time-based difficulties."
In the middle of the second paragraph, same page
"The propulsive force available from the highest specific-impulse (ISP)
fusion engines available or projected fell far short of being able to
achieve the 10 km/s^2 acceleration required."
Done quoting, now what do we learn from these quotes? #1 impulse engines
can be used to go above .75c, but it takes a lot of power. Notice it says
HIGH IMPULSE OPERATIONS not 3 times FULL IMPULSE which is what it would be
if .25c were full impulse. #2 we learn that by adding the SMIE to the MIE
thrust you can double the rate of acceleration because both sets are 4
Impulse Engine assemblies.
From the second paragraph we know that Star Fleet Command required a MINIMUM
acceleration of 10 km/s^2. If this is the MAXIMUM acceleration on one set
of Impulse Engines then the 1701-D would achieve .99c in 30,000 seconds <c=
300,000 km/s> which works out to 8 hours and 20 minutes, not "Also, we know
the highest acceleration given in the TM is 10km.s-2 which ain't enough by
far to get to lightspeed in anything less than several days.", which is an
exact quote from you with no alterations.
Unless the laws of the universe have been changed while I wasn't looking
velocity still equals acceleration multiplied by time, to solve for .99c I
took 300000km/s divided by 10km/s and then divided by 3600 seconds per hour
which is 8 hours and 20 minutes.
Further if adding the SMIE does double the thrust as indicated time from
zero to .99c would be 4 hours and 10 minutes.
Do you have any cannon sources to contradict these official sources or are
you going to withdraw your claim that .25c is max impulse and apologize for
saying to me
"Full Impulse IS 0.25 c, do a bit more research, troll. "?
--
Life is what YOU make of it, so why are you sitting there reading this?
Allen W. McDonnell
AIM Tanada1945
Timo S Saloniemi
>>Anyway, "full impulse" most likely simply means "full throttle". If
>>we trust the TNG Tech Manual's idea that the E-D could accelerate
>>at a thousand gee when going full throttle, then reaching .25
>>lightspeed would take about two hours, after which one would
>>automatically throttle down because of the "speed limit" of risking
>>relativistic effects. So the speed attained by "full impulse"
>>would depend on how long one was allowed to accelerate - in
>>fast-paced close combat, "full impulse" would not even get you up
>>to .1 lightspeed (which is consistent with what we see on screen).
>Two problems with this, #1 Full impulse is .99c, not .25c. .25c is one
>quarter impulse and the reason they prefer .25c is retarded because it takes
>up to .8c before reletivistic effects become noticibly large. You could
>literally travel several light years at .8c and only have a few days clock
>difference when you arrive so the so called .25c impulse limit is goofy.
How is this a "problem"? You say full impulse is .99c, I say full impulse
is full throttle, and both of us acknowledge that there are relativistic
considerations there. If we trust the TNG TM, then we have to accept the
"retarded" logic in there that even small time dilation matters. If we trust
only canon sources, then full impulse is not defined in *any* way - there is
no clear-cut indication that it would be .99c, or .25c, or .66c, or full
throttle, or that relativity would be a factor, or that relativity would
in fact not exist in the Trek universe. There certainly isn't any data on
1/4 impulse being .25c - every time somebody goes at 1/4 impulse, this
is supposed to indicate in Hollywood terms that the ship is crawling (since
even the layman understands that "1/4" is smaller than "full", and old
WWII movies feature crawling naval ships when "engines at 1/4" is commanded).
>#2 Impulse works by the same basic principals as warp drive, i.e. is
>distorts subspace to make the ship move. It also fires off a stream of
>ionized fusion waste as we saw in TUC but the basis of Impulse drive is
>subspace distortion coupled with mass lightening feilds coupled with
>propulsive release of ionized fusion waste. To claim that it takes 2 hours
>to accellerate to .25c is totally unfounded and unprovable.
Yup. Yet entirely *possible*. There's nothing in the shows to allow for accurate
calculations of impulse or warp speeds, since for every figure given there
is another figure that grossly contradicts it. It's just a matter of what one
wants to believe. In my original post, I used the expression "if we trust
the TNG TM". That is the assumption I'm starting from, the one I want to
believe. Starting from elsewhere, one would get different results.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>BTS doth write thus:
>
>Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in article
><20000112.232220....@juno.com>...
>
>>So much for the superior astrometrics sensors that might have warned
>>them about it and let them avoid it before hand.
>Another "Voyager" tradition; remember that big bright nebula in "One,"
>where they wait until they're on top of it to determine if it's too
>dangerous to cross?
At least in "One", the crew was utterly, totally, 100% convinced that
the nebula was a harmless one, until they found out it wasn't. They
had classified it as a "Mutara type" nebula, one they thought they
knew *everything* about already. Too bad they were mistaken.
Wasn't this neutron wave the same thing, really? The crew thought
it posed no danger (even if there wasn't dialogue of them or
other Starfleet ships going through hundreds of other such waves in
the past). I mean, neutron radiation - a mundane concentration of
real-world particles of which everything worthwhile was learned
back in the primitive 20th century. How bad could that be?
Next they should be avoiding "the intense photon flux
of high-yield thermonuclear reactions at the hundred-nanometer
region, moving at warp one in many regions of interstellar space"
(aka sunlight), just in case...
>Okay, actually it's a Starfleet tradition; remember in "First Contact"
>when the Big E crew doesn't even bother to turn on the viewscreen until
>they reach Earth?
The viewscreen isn't an important navaid, really. Mitchell, Kirk's
old helmsman, seemed to do nicely without it. The Sutherland flew nicely
without one. Sulu did use it a lot, and so did LaForge (of all people!),
but surely it is the least informative way of letting you navigate
in interstellar space: "I *think* that blob of light in the distance
could be the star we are aiming at. Perhaps that slight red hue is
a nebula between us. Or a deadly radiation zone. Or a reflection off
my shirt, or the Captain's scalp. It could be ten lightyears away - or
is it sixteen meters? Let's go have a closer look. Hmm - are we moving
yet? Hard to tell from the screen."
Close-quarters piloting is another thing.
>>> off-duty hours. They're the 24th Century equivalent of an
>>> Inflate-A-Date. If Janeway would simply let herself enjoy the
>>> program, get her ashes hauled and relax, it would be SO good for her,
>>> the crew and everyone involved.
>>Agreed. And this is what the Doc should have reminded her of - that
>>holoprograms are there for fun, kind of like this ng.
A human doctor might have said that. Why would the holographic doctor
say anything of the kind? He's having enough problems with his own
treatment - he should be leading a "respect your holo-doll" campaign
if anything.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>But lightning kills more than 100 people every year (more than tornados),
>and causes millions of dollars in damage. You would think they would want to
>control it somehow. Maybe she was hearing it strike lightning rods or
>something.
Cloud-to-cloud lightning bolts don't kill anybody on the ground. One would
think that a weather control system, if unable to prevent a thunderstorm
entirely, would concentrate its forces on preventing surface-to-cloud
lightning bolts and would not waste any strength on cloud-to-cloud
bolts. That wouldn't invalidate Janeway's childhood memories. And lightning
rods are certainly a possibility, too (perhaps lightning is what powers
Indiana in the 24th century?).
And lightning or tropical storms or other such high-energy phenomena
could be far beyond the capabilities of a weather control net. Perhaps
it can only change a cold and nasty spring rain into a warm and pleasant
spring rain? Or fine-tune the thermal flows in the atmosphere to weed out
most storms, but (due to the complex nature of the problem) would make
some mistakes that then accumulate into storms, which the net no longer can
prevent.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>Hey Mike what did I do to deserve being called a Troll?
Claim to know the truth, I guess. THe TNG TM is obscure enough that
it can hardly serve as "proof" for anything; and the episodes themselves
are worse. So debunking somebody's theory as "impossible" is not
fair when no means exist for determining "the truth". It's time-consuming
but polite to type "I think..." and "Wouldn't it then be likely..." and
"Thus probably...".
>OFFICIAL ST:TNG tech manual page 75, halfway down the first paragraph.
>"High impulse operations, specifically velocities above 0.75c, may require
>added power from the Saucer Module engines. These operations, while
>acceptable options during some missions, are often avoided due to
>relativistic considerations and their inherent time-based difficulties."
Which may not be nonsense at all, since at .75c there could easily be
drag in space. I'm not referring to "Profit and Lace" here, but to
actual "air resistance" from interstellar soot. So engine power would
be a factor in attaining and maintaining high relativistic speeds.
Low speeds could be attained regardless of engine power, of course:
using a single thruster instead of three impulse engines at full throttle
would just mean the speed would be attained after a longer time,
due to lower acceleration. Just thought I might note this.
>In the middle of the second paragraph, same page
>"The propulsive force available from the highest specific-impulse (ISP)
>fusion engines available or projected fell far short of being able to
>achieve the 10 km/s^2 acceleration required."
Yup, that's what I was basing my acceleration ideas on.
>Done quoting, now what do we learn from these quotes? #1 impulse engines
>can be used to go above .75c, but it takes a lot of power. Notice it says
>HIGH IMPULSE OPERATIONS not 3 times FULL IMPULSE which is what it would be
>if .25c were full impulse. #2 we learn that by adding the SMIE to the MIE
>thrust you can double the rate of acceleration because both sets are 4
>Impulse Engine assemblies.
Was the "double the rate" thing mentioned there, too? It wasn't in the
quotes, and I don't have the TM at hand just now.
>From the second paragraph we know that Star Fleet Command required a MINIMUM
>acceleration of 10 km/s^2. If this is the MAXIMUM acceleration on one set
>of Impulse Engines then the 1701-D would achieve .99c in 30,000 seconds <c=
>300,000 km/s> which works out to 8 hours and 20 minutes, not "Also, we know
>the highest acceleration given in the TM is 10km.s-2 which ain't enough by
>far to get to lightspeed in anything less than several days.", which is an
>exact quote from you with no alterations.
Exactly. Two hours to go to .25c, eight to go to lightspeed in
Newtonian space. Less in Einsteinian space from the ship's POV,
but we don't want to mess with that. Mike apparently made a slight
error in his estimate.
But I'd like to take exception to a difference between "minimum" and
"maximum" acceleration requirements. Those should be the same, logically.
"Minimum acceleration requirement" is simply the lower limit of maximum
acceleration the engineers are allowed to build into the ship. They can
build a higher one if they wish, and if they know how - but then a smart
person writing the requirements would choose a higher "minimum acceleration
requirement" to reflect the reality of the situation. You don't give
inferior performance to yourflagship class voluntarily.
It would make no sense to define "minimum acceleration requirement" to
mean the lowest acceleration the ship can perform (because of course the
lowest acceleration the ship can perform is ZERO!). Nor does it
make any sense to give a "minimum acceleration requirement" for
the Ambassador class (which is the class in question in this
quote) that is orders of magnitude lower than in other starships.
No, 10 km/s^2 ought to be a good indicator of the acceleration
capabilities of all big starships of the mid-24th century. Ambassador
and Galaxy alike.
>Unless the laws of the universe have been changed while I wasn't looking
>velocity still equals acceleration multiplied by time, to solve for .99c I
>took 300000km/s divided by 10km/s and then divided by 3600 seconds per hour
>which is 8 hours and 20 minutes.
Ahem, the laws did change abour a hundred years ago. You can't solve for
higher than .5c without running into Einsteinian trouble. Below .1c
it won't matter much, and .25c might be a good limit, too.
>Further if adding the SMIE does double the thrust as indicated time from
>zero to .99c would be 4 hours and 10 minutes.
Yup, in Newtonian calculations that's a linear thing. Double the number of
engines from that and you get 2 hrs 5 minutes, and so on. I doubt the
engineering reality is quite as simple, though. Other factors may affect
the maximum acceleration allowed - the SIFs, for example.
>Do you have any cannon sources to contradict these official sources or are
>you going to withdraw your claim that .25c is max impulse and apologize for
>saying to me
>"Full Impulse IS 0.25 c, do a bit more research, troll. "?
Well, manners aside, one CAN say "Full Impulse is .25c" in the sense
that when a captain hollers "Full Impulse and damn the torpedoes!",
the helmsman is supposed to know that he can't go over .25c, so he
will throttle down at that speed. The ship is supposed to be capable
of more, though. And making absolute statements is a bad idea in
general.
The acceleration we see when the TOS ship departs a planet (say,
Earth in ST:TMP) could probably be calculated by measuring the
speed at which the planet shrinks on the screen. Has anybody done
anything with that? In TMP, the Enteprise is past Jupiter about
two hours into the mission, before engaging warp drive. That's
just within possibility with 10 km/s^2 acceleration (or how far
exactly will Jupiter be from Earth in the 2270s?).
Timo Saloniemi
P.S. While we have little data on accelerations, we know that
decelerations are near-instantaneous. But that need not mean
that the impulse engines are capable of 5000km/s^2 accelerations
or something - it may simply be that there exists a way to brake
the ship by hooking an anchor of some kind to subspace, which
may provide a rest frame for the galaxy. It seems that for all
practical purposes, subspace is an etherlike absolute reference
for motion, and should serve as a very nice braking system while
being unutilizable as an acceleration system.
Lord Edam de Fromage
tsal...@alpha.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote:
> >In the middle of the second paragraph, same page
> >"The propulsive force available from the highest specific-impulse
(ISP)
> >fusion engines available or projected fell far short of being able to
> >achieve the 10 km/s^2 acceleration required."
[snip]
> But I'd like to take exception to a difference between "minimum" and
> "maximum" acceleration requirements. Those should be the same,
logically.
> "Minimum acceleration requirement" is simply the lower limit of
maximum
> acceleration the engineers are allowed to build into the ship. They
can
> build a higher one if they wish, and if they know how - but then a
smart
> person writing the requirements would choose a higher "minimum
acceleration
> requirement" to reflect the reality of the situation. You don't give
> inferior performance to yourflagship class voluntarily.
>
> It would make no sense to define "minimum acceleration requirement"
to
> mean the lowest acceleration the ship can perform (because of course
the
> lowest acceleration the ship can perform is ZERO!). Nor does it
> make any sense to give a "minimum acceleration requirement" for
> the Ambassador class (which is the class in question in this
> quote) that is orders of magnitude lower than in other starships.
>
> No, 10 km/s^2 ought to be a good indicator of the acceleration
> capabilities of all big starships of the mid-24th century. Ambassador
> and Galaxy alike.
Oh look, this old gem again. I remember this from last september,
before I went culling penguins.
I seem to remember posting something c/o Mr. Boyd about this problem.
You see, everyone takes the reference to the Ambassador as the
acceleration of that ship (and thus every ship after), but this is not
true. Infact, there is no indication of this whatsoever.
Taking things purely on the TM, the quote is a *historical* one
explaining why Impulse Driver Coils were designed and implemented.
Without an impulse driver coils the Ambassador class could not achieve
the acceleration they decided was an absolute minimum for any starship -
10km/s^2, so they investigated a STL warp drive - the impulse driver
coils - that reduced the inertial mass of the ship and allowed its
thrusters to produce higher accelerations. The actual acceleration of
the Ambassador with or without these driver coils is never given.
Of course, we then have the problems of on-screen examples. For eg, the
Enterprise A exiting space dock at an ordered 1/4 impulse, which Mr.
January jumped to point out during his accusations of trolling. This
example has two problems - 1) - no IDCs in the pre-ambassador class
ship, so we can't really compare its capabilities with those of post-
ambassador ships 2) - common sense. The ship was travelling in a closed
area (space dock) with many hazards and obstructions. Yes, Kirk did
order 1/4 impulse, but anyone with half a brain would think "hang on,
does he mean 1/4 imulse in this palce where I'm likely to crach into
something, or 1/4 impulse once I'm out in the open?". Think of it as
someone asking you to drive somewhere as fast as you can - you don't
spend all your time with the accelerator on the floor. You use the
fasest speed you judge is safe at the time.
> P.S. While we have little data on accelerations, we know that
> decelerations are near-instantaneous. But that need not mean
> that the impulse engines are capable of 5000km/s^2 accelerations
> or something - it may simply be that there exists a way to brake
> the ship by hooking an anchor of some kind to subspace, which
> may provide a rest frame for the galaxy.
Or alternatively cutting the AMRE field which requires an almost
instantaneous reduction in velocity in order to fulfill the requirement
for Conservation of Momentum? It is never adviseable to judge
*acceleration* based on the *decelerative* capabilities of any ship,
unless you know for a fact how the two compare.
J. Potts
Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>When the fight started, why didn't anyone yell "FREEZE PROGRAM!"?
That's the same question I was wondering about. Kim seemed to think
he had to get to the holodeck controls to do something about the fight.
However, we've seen in the past that all someone needs to do is ask
the computer to freeze the program and it will. I think this is another
time that TPTB decided to ignore previously established methods because
it was inconvenient for them.
--
JRP
"How many slime-trailing, sleepless, slimy, slobbering things do you know
that will *run and hide* from your Eveready?"
--Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson
Mike Dicenso
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Brian Barjenbruch wrote:
> > This REALLY annoyed me, here we go again, Voyager can travle at .99
> > lightspeed on impulse drive if need be.
>
> Full impulse is only 1/4 lightspeed.
>
That's an artifical limit Brian to limit relativistic effects. If
Voyager's impulse engines are about as efficent as their Galaxy class
starship counterparts, then it would follow that Voyager would be capable
of velocites around .75c. That means that Voyager would have been able to
just *barely* outrun the wavefront, and we don't know how long they can
sustain full impulse power. So would ramping the IPS that high have been
worth it to gain a few extra hours, or days lead on the 'storm'? Probably
not as they were easily able to 'weather' it out. Hardly worth redlining
the engines, and probably even exausting the fuel supplies in the process.
-Mike
Mike Dicenso
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Matthew Singer wrote:
> "Strowbridge" <strow...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:387E1503...@home.com...
> > Walt wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, as per LaForge in ST:TNG, "full impulse" is Warp 6.
> > >
> > > There is an episode where Riker tells LaForge to increase speed
> > > to Warp 6 (from Warp 4). LaForge confirms the command by saying
> > > he is bringing the impulse engines to full.
> >
> > I think it is best to assume that Geordi was having problems that day.
>
> Or it could be that they were having a problem and needed more power.
Hmmm, pardon me for being a bit skeptical, but would someone mind giving
the name, or plot synopsis of the episode that this alleged statement was
made in? Just want to varify this, and make sure it's not another fan
misrecollection.
-Mike
The Heathen
> I thought in the first session, it was made very clear that the
> holodecks used an independent power source from the rest of the
> ship. This was the reason given for the holodecks to still be
> in use when the rest of the ship was on a "low power" alert.
Which is in contradiction to the ST:TNG episode "Booby Trap" where
Geordi makes the holodeck similation with Leah Brahms. During power
conservation, the holodecks were the first thing they turned off, not
the last!
The Heathen
(hea...@scientist.com)
Ian J. Ball
<Pine.GSO.4.21.000117...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu>, Mike
Dicenso <mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
Whoa! I'm starting to have "Galaxy Quest" flashbacks here! <feeling woozy>
--
Ian J. Ball | "I'm not going to have somebody probing my mind,
Ph.D. Chemist, | looking for things that aren't there!"
& TV lover | - Trisha Dennison McNeil, CBS's Y&R
ib...@socal.rr.com | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/TV.html
WWS
Lord Edam de Fromage wrote:
>
> In article <85v153$55f$1...@nntp.hut.fi>,
> tsal...@alpha.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote:
> > >In the middle of the second paragraph, same page
> > >"The propulsive force available from the highest specific-impulse
> (ISP)
> > >fusion engines available or projected fell far short of being able to
> > >achieve the 10 km/s^2 acceleration required."
>
> [snip]
>
> > But I'd like to take exception to a difference between "minimum" and
> > "maximum" acceleration requirements. Those should be the same,
> logically.
> > "Minimum acceleration requirement" is simply the lower limit of
> maximum acceleration the engineers are allowed to build into the ship.
> > They can build a higher one if they wish, and if they know how - but
> then a smart person writing the requirements would choose a higher
> "minimum acceleration requirement" to reflect the reality of the
> situation. You don't give inferior performance to your flagship
> class voluntarily.
(snip)
Hey, aren't you Travis Latke????
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
c'mon, you can tell!
Joyce Harmon
"V. Equinox" wrote:
> In article <388196D3...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Summery deleted on Holodeck:
> >
> >>
> >> Nits, points and a wee tale o' the Little People:
> >
> >> - And during the fight, what kept them from deleting the pubcrawlers
> >> before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
> >> and Kim?
> >
> >When the fight started, why didn't anyone yell "FREEZE PROGRAM!"?
> >
> It is possible that somebody tried, but because of all the yelling in the bar
> due to the fight, the computer's audio sensors didn't pick it up. That might
> have been when Kim decided he needed to get to the holodeck controls. And
> maybe by the time it had quieted down enough for the computer to pick up audio
> commands, the fight had ended anyway so it didn't matter.
Of course, another possibility is that they didn't delete the brawlers or freeze the program because they
*wanted* to participate in a good old-fashioned Earth-style barroom brawl. They *are* Guys, after all...
Joyce
Bozo the Proctologist
>In article <3882...@news.provide.net> "Allen W. McDonnell"
<tan...@provide.net> >writes:
>
>>Hey Mike what did I do to deserve being called a Troll?
>
>Claim to know the truth, I guess. THe TNG TM is obscure enough that
>it can hardly serve as "proof" for anything; and the episodes themselves
>are worse. So debunking somebody's theory as "impossible" is not
>fair when no means exist for determining "the truth". It's
time-consuming
>but polite to type "I think..." and "Wouldn't it then be likely..." and
>"Thus probably...".
Too true, unfortunately. Trek *canon* as such simply can't exist, as
long as TPTB are contradicting previous eps (or, even, the current
frigging ep!!) for any or no reason at all.
>>OFFICIAL ST:TNG tech manual page 75, halfway down the first paragraph.
>>"High impulse operations, specifically velocities above 0.75c, may
require
>>added power from the Saucer Module engines. These operations, while
>>acceptable options during some missions, are often avoided due to
>>relativistic considerations and their inherent time-based
difficulties."
>
>Which may not be nonsense at all, since at .75c there could easily be
>drag in space. I'm not referring to "Profit and Lace" here,
AAAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!
The memories, oh GOD the memories...... <whimper>
>but to
>actual "air resistance" from interstellar soot. So engine power would
>be a factor in attaining and maintaining high relativistic speeds.
>Low speeds could be attained regardless of engine power, of course:
>using a single thruster instead of three impulse engines at full
throttle
>would just mean the speed would be attained after a longer time,
>due to lower acceleration. Just thought I might note this.
Hmmm..... any tech heads here ever crunch real numbers for the viscosity
of the interstellar medium? At a high enough relativistic speed it would
certainly be substantial...... maybe the storied "Bussard Collectors"
would come into play, allowing a starship to operate as a ramjet?
And on the subject of *limiting* impulse speed to minimize relativistic
time differences..... I don't buy it. Starfleet officers time travel all
the time, enough so that they've developed a beaurocracy and paperwork to
handle it. Temporal anomalies are so common, the Borg have designations
for thousands of different types. No doubt when a ship returns to its
proper time, there's some standard subspace channel they can tune in to
set their clocks by.
He-Who-Wonders-How-Temporal-Affairs-Would-Handle-A-Genuine-Visitor-From-T
he-Future
"Why do people in ship mutinies always ask for 'better treatment'? I'd
ask for a pinball machine, because with all that rocking back and
forth you'd probably be able to get a lot of free games." Jack Handy
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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Guinan
"C. A. Brown" wrote:
> Walt wrote:
>
> >
> > NoOneYouKnow wrote:
> > >
> > > Additional nits:
> > > - Janeway reminisses about her childhood in Indiana and all the severe
> > > storms they had. I guess that must have been before the weather control
> > > network mentioned in TNG
> > >
>
> And also, and this may be a stretch and all, but the farm Janeway grew
> up in Indiana was part of a "Traditionalist Community" -- a place with
> farms that shunned a lot of the "modern living" of the 24th century. She
> complained about this upbringing in the episode "Resolutions."
>
> So maybe the Weather control network was not set up to handle or
> welcomed in communities of this type. Just a speculation. . . .
Sounds resonable.. :)
Plus, having grown up in Indiana I rather LIKE the thunderstorms
and would oppose a weather-controlling device.
I rather miss the thunderstorms... nothing else there,
just the storms in the summer.
Guinan
--
Remove the *NOSPAM* to reply
Visit Guinan's Bar and Grille
http://www.welcome.to/guinans
In Loving Memory of DeForest Kelley
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2541/dkelley.htm
holefamily1
<sorb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <85v153$55f$1...@nntp.hut.fi>,
> tsal...@alpha.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote:
> > >"The propulsive force available from the highest
> specific-impulse
> (ISP)
> > >fusion engines available or projected fell far short of being
> able to
> > >achieve the 10 km/s^2 acceleration required."
> > decelerations are near-instantaneous. But that need not mean
> > that the impulse engines are capable of 5000km/s^2 accelerations
> > or something - it may simply be that there exists a way to brake
> > the ship by hooking an anchor of some kind to subspace, which
> > may provide a rest frame for the galaxy.
> instantaneous reduction in velocity in order to fulfill the
> requirement
> for Conservation of Momentum? It is never adviseable to judge
> *acceleration* based on the *decelerative* capabilities of any
> ship,
> unless you know for a fact how the two compare.
Peep! PeeP!
Mr. Hole
V. Equinox
enough in their programming that their behavior closely mimics that of a
sentient person. It's an illusion created by the Starfleet holographic
programmers; a very good illusion, but an illusion nonetheless.
-------------------
"You can't kill me!"
-Chris Redfield, Resident Evil
Truer words were never spoken
V. Equinox
>> ALREADY covers three light years, but will pass Voyager in a matter of
>> days?
>
>> 3.6 lightyears. My assumption was that Voyager just happened to be about 10
>> light-hours from the wavefront when Voyager detected it (the storm was
>> going to hit in 15 hours). Since the storm covered 3.6 lightyears, why
>> didn't Voyager's sensors (able to detect stars and planets thousands of
>> light years away) detect it when Voyager was still well away?
>
>> before they opened up a jolly shamrock-green can of whoop-ass on Paris
>> and Kim?
>
>When the fight started, why didn't anyone yell "FREEZE PROGRAM!"?
>
It is possible that somebody tried, but because of all the yelling in the bar
due to the fight, the computer's audio sensors didn't pick it up. That might
have been when Kim decided he needed to get to the holodeck controls. And
maybe by the time it had quieted down enough for the computer to pick up audio
commands, the fight had ended anyway so it didn't matter.
-------------------
C. A. Brown
>
> I had wondered that to, but chalked it up to that the Weather Control
> network only got involved when the weather got sever enough to
> cause damage. Lightning, which is doing nothing much more than
> scaring a little girl, doesn't warrant action.
>
> >
> > Additional nits:
> > - Janeway reminisses about her childhood in Indiana and all the severe
> > storms they had. I guess that must have been before the weather control
> > network mentioned in TNG
> >
And also, and this may be a stretch and all, but the farm Janeway grew
up in Indiana was part of a "Traditionalist Community" -- a place with
farms that shunned a lot of the "modern living" of the 24th century. She
complained about this upbringing in the episode "Resolutions."
So maybe the Weather control network was not set up to handle or
welcomed in communities of this type. Just a speculation. . . .
--
C. A. Brown
"Besides, the real Millennium is in 2001, not 2000."
"Nobody likes a math geek, Scully."
-- Scully and Mulder, discussing the year 2000; "The X-Files"
Timo S Saloniemi
>In article <388196D3...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>,
>Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
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>he had to get to the holodeck controls to do something about the fight.
>However, we've seen in the past that all someone needs to do is ask
>the computer to freeze the program and it will. I think this is another
>time that TPTB decided to ignore previously established methods because
>it was inconvenient for them.
But freezing the program would have spoiled all the fun. Kim probably
wanted to avoid a coitus interruptus the best he could, and would have
preferred to just tune down the aggression index or punching power of the
holocrowd, or something subtle like that. It's one thing to freeze
or abort programs you are playing by yourself, and another to use
command words in a program with multiple users. Kim might have just
initiated another brawl by freezing the program...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>Hmmm, pardon me for being a bit skeptical, but would someone mind giving
>the name, or plot synopsis of the episode that this alleged statement was
>made in? Just want to varify this, and make sure it's not another fan
>misrecollection.
I believe it was TNG "Conspiracy", with the bridge crew minus Picard
eagerly awaiting an arrival in Pacificia for shore leave. Riker gives
the command to go warp 5->6, and Geordi goes "aye, full impulse".
Or was it in "We'll Always Have Paris", an episode which happens to
be on the same cassette as "Conspiracy"? That episode, too, should
feature a scene with Picard off the bridge and the ship speeding up
a little. I think it can be narrowed down to those two episodes.
Will go back and check ASAP.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>
>
>
>> > This REALLY annoyed me, here we go again, Voyager can travle at .99
>> > lightspeed on impulse drive if need be.
>> Full impulse is only 1/4 lightspeed.
>That's an artifical limit Brian to limit relativistic effects. If
>Voyager's impulse engines are about as efficent as their Galaxy class
>starship counterparts, then it would follow that Voyager would be capable
>of velocites around .75c. That means that Voyager would have been able to
>just *barely* outrun the wavefront, and we don't know how long they can
>sustain full impulse power. So would ramping the IPS that high have been
>worth it to gain a few extra hours, or days lead on the 'storm'? Probably
>not as they were easily able to 'weather' it out. Hardly worth redlining
>the engines, and probably even exausting the fuel supplies in the process.
I agree with this logic, too. If I'd been facing a supposedly benign
wavefront and suddenly lost my warp drive, I'd have accelerated away from
it AND used the extra time gained to learn why the front wasn't benign
after all, and how to weather it out. But since the Voyager crew has
quick wits, they didn't need to do that accelerating away part, and
went straight for the weathering out part...
There might be a reason why no ship can accelerate to beyond .75c (or
"high impulse operations" in the TNG TM), even though theoretically
a ship accelerating in vacuum would eventually reach c minus epsilon,
with epsilon as small as one likes regardless of engine power. There
could be simple drag from interstellar matter, or some sort of
"subspace drag", or most likely both, growing in strength as speed
increases. A ship running away from a relativistic wavefront would
have to keep the engines on all the time to fight the drag and maintain
constant speed, instead of coasting like ships at lesser speeds could do.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>The holodoc isn't sentient, neither is Vic Fontaine. Both are just advanced
>enough in their programming that their behavior closely mimics that of a
>sentient person. It's an illusion created by the Starfleet holographic
>programmers; a very good illusion, but an illusion nonetheless.
Data is confirmed to be an illusion, too (after all, he was "built", not
born). Yet he is considered sentient and a UFP citizen. So it would seem
strange to deprive citizenship and the title of "sentient" from a creation
that can perfectly imitate sentience. If one does limit the dealing out
of "sentient" labels, then who's the next to go? Clones grown in a vat?
(those are currently given citizenship "at the moment they attain
sentience", at least according to Bajoran law and DS9 "A Man Alone")
Genetically engineered people? Babies not born in a womb? People with
positronic prosthetics in their brains, or pacemakers in their hearts?
I don't think a society comprising such a biological and nonbiological
diversity as the UFP does could afford to consider sentience-imitating
holograms nonsentient.
Timo Saloniemi
HouseQuake
Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
> Hmmm..... any tech heads here ever crunch real numbers for the viscosity
> of the interstellar medium? At a high enough relativistic speed it would
> certainly be substantial...... maybe the storied "Bussard Collectors"
> would come into play, allowing a starship to operate as a ramjet?
i don't know that there would be any real drag due to space itself. there
would be what could be considered "drag" due to due the ship's mass. for
those unfamiliar with the theory of relativity - as your speed approaches the
speed of light, so does your mass. so the faster you travel, the more energy
it would take to increase your speed or slow you down, so it might feel like
drag. when travelling at fantastic speeds you might run into enough stray
hydrogen atoms to be worth collecting, but the bussard collectors would have
to have unbelievably strong magnetic fields to wrangle them in. running a
starship into a stray proton in space when moving at .75c would be like
running an aircraft carrier into an iceberg. even subatomic particles can
have devasting destructive power at those speeds. the navigational deflector
is meant to protect the ship from these particles, so i wonder how the
bussard collectors would catch them if the deflector is pushing them out of
the way? yet another trek contradiction perhaps...
hq
Richard Van Fossan
"HouseQuake" <tok...@no.spam.tcac.net> wrote in message
news:38846A66...@no.spam.tcac.net...
>
>
> Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
>
> > Hmmm..... any tech heads here ever crunch real numbers for the viscosity
> > of the interstellar medium? At a high enough relativistic speed it
would
> > certainly be substantial...... maybe the storied "Bussard Collectors"
> > would come into play, allowing a starship to operate as a ramjet?
>
> i don't know that there would be any real drag due to space itself. there
> would be what could be considered "drag" due to due the ship's mass. for
The concentration of matter in intersteller space is about 1-3 atoms per
cubic centimeter. A ship the size of the Enterprise would pass through a lot
of cubic centimeters at 1/2 lightspeed. There would be drag--in fact, the
oncoming atoms would basically be gamma rays. Thus the need for
"navigational shields." Even if thos shields are frictionless, a certain
amount of energy would be necessary to change the trajectory of a hydrogen
atom so it doesn't hit the hull and make everyone glow in the dark. Multiply
this by millions or billions of atoms per second, and it's a real "drag."
Michael January
:
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> Full Impulse IS 0.25 c, do a bit more research, troll. Your fanaticism
>>> is addling your wits.
Oops, got a bit emotional there at the long-disproved fallacy that
Full Impulse equals instant 0.99c.
Full Impulse equates to about 10km.s-2 as far as we know, since that
is the design requirements for large capital ships in starfleet.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, we know for a fact 1/4 Impulse is slower than a bus, just
>>> look how long it took the A to get out of spacedock when Kirk ordered
>>> 1/4 Impulse in the movie.
>>>
>>> Also, we know the highest acceleration given in the TM is 10km.s-2
>>> which ain't enough by far to get to lightspeed in anything less than
>>> several days.
I grabbed "several days" out of thin air, no calcs involved. I accept
your calc (without verification) that in a Newtonian universe C will
be achieved in 8 hrs 20 min (fuel consumption allowing).
In an Einsteinian Universe, you get about 5% distortion at 0.5c
(guess), which will start seriously affecting your calcs. By 0.8c the
distortion will be approaching 15% to 20% and climbing steeply,
meaning you have to expend much more power/fuel to achieve similar
acceleration. Eventually of course, your power requirements will
approach infinity as you approach C. Not that that has anything to do
with my apology :-)
>
>Hey Mike what did I do to deserve being called a Troll?
I think I confused you with somebody else for some reason. Sorry. As
for "full Impulse equals 0.25c", that is the generally accepted point
at which accelerative power is cut to avoid relativistic problems
(which would approx. 0.5% or less at this speed.)
South Africa is the only nation to have successfully developed nuclear weapons,
and then voluntarily relinquish that capability.
Mike Dicenso
On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Ian J. Ball wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.GSO.4.21.000117...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu>, Mike
> Dicenso <mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Brian Barjenbruch wrote:
> >
> > > > This REALLY annoyed me, here we go again, Voyager can travle at .99
> > > > lightspeed on impulse drive if need be.
> > >
> > > Full impulse is only 1/4 lightspeed.
> >
> > That's an artifical limit Brian to limit relativistic effects. If
> > Voyager's impulse engines are about as efficent as their Galaxy class
> > starship counterparts, then it would follow that Voyager would be capable
> > of velocites around .75c. That means that Voyager would have been able to
> > just *barely* outrun the wavefront, and we don't know how long they can
> > sustain full impulse power. So would ramping the IPS that high have been
> > worth it to gain a few extra hours, or days lead on the 'storm'? Probably
> > not as they were easily able to 'weather' it out. Hardly worth redlining
> > the engines, and probably even exausting the fuel supplies in the process.
> > -Mike
>
> Whoa! I'm starting to have "Galaxy Quest" flashbacks here! <feeling woozy>
That was a fricken' hilarious movie!
-Mike
Lord Edam de Fromage
Bozo the Proctologist
>Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
>
>> Hmmm..... any tech heads here ever crunch real numbers for the
viscosity
>> of the interstellar medium? At a high enough relativistic speed it
would
>> certainly be substantial...... maybe the storied "Bussard Collectors"
>> would come into play, allowing a starship to operate as a ramjet?
>
>i don't know that there would be any real drag due to space itself.
there
>would be what could be considered "drag" due to due the ship's mass.
There would also be literal drag, due to the gas and dust out in space.
Way back when I was in school the guesstimates for the interstellar
medium were on the order of a hydrogen atom per cubic centimeter. For
the speeds we can surrently send ships, this indeed empty vacuum..... but
eventually, we'll get up to speeds where the interstellar gas can produce
noticable drag.
>for
>those unfamiliar with the theory of relativity - as your speed
approaches the
>speed of light, so does your mass. so the faster you travel, the more
energy
>it would take to increase your speed or slow you down, so it might feel
like
>drag.
I'm familiar with relativity; I'd be surprised if anyone at the Trek Head
Offfices was. <G>
>when travelling at fantastic speeds you might run into enough stray
>hydrogen atoms to be worth collecting, but the bussard collectors would
have
>to have unbelievably strong magnetic fields to wrangle them in. running
a
>starship into a stray proton in space when moving at .75c would be like
>running an aircraft carrier into an iceberg. even subatomic particles
can
>have devasting destructive power at those speeds.
Have they ever said of the Bussard Collectors use magnetism or some
treknobabble?
IIRC the relativistic mass increase at .75c wouldn't allow a single
proton to damage the ship's structure, but the interstellar hydrogen, at
that speed, would be like a hail of cosmic rays. In "Songs of Distant
Earth" Clarke addressed this by having his sublight starship freezing a
giant iceberg in front of it, to do the job of Trek's navigational
deflector.
>the navigational deflector
>is meant to protect the ship from these particles, so i wonder how the
>bussard collectors would catch them if the deflector is pushing them out
of
>the way? yet another trek contradiction perhaps...
A *contradiction*? In Trek??? Oh, my..... <G>
He-Who-Wonders-How-A-Ramjet-Would-Handle-Dust
If you've ever seen Klingon food you know why they are so grouchy.
Richard Van Fossan
> Have they ever said of the Bussard Collectors use magnetism or some
> treknobabble?
>
<snip>
"Bussard collectors" are named for Dr. Henri Bussard, who proposed using
lasers to ionize hydrogen and very strong magnetic fields to collect it for
fuel for an intersteller fusion ramjet.
Bozo the Proctologist
I know, but since the physics involved would no doubt go right over
Braga's and Bormanis's heads, I was wondering if any more arcane
treknobabble was invoked in any ep for the Collectors.
BTW, do you have any numbers for the magnetic field strength for the
ramjet? Without digging through two feet of notes, all I remember
offhand was that UV light at 91.2 nm would ionize hydrogen from the
ground state.
He-Who-Realizes-We're-Putting-A-Lot-More-Thought-Into-It-Than-The-Writers
-Do-<G>
"Il est mort, Jean-Luc!"
Bozo the Proctologist
>Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
>>
>> IIRC the relativistic mass increase at .75c wouldn't allow a single
>> proton to damage the ship's structure, but the interstellar hydrogen,
at
>> that speed, would be like a hail of cosmic rays.
>
>
>And hitting something even as small as a pebble would be disaster. Given
>the billions of comets and meteorites we know exist through space (the
>Oort Cloud goes out for trillions of miles), this is no minor problem.
Indeed; at even .5c a fleck of dust would be like hitting a missile with
a high-explosive warhead. Since kinetic energy varies with the square of
the velocity, as you go to relativistic speeds it's as if the
relativistic mass (which is higher than the rest-mass) is converted into
energy.
>> In "Songs of Distant
>> Earth" Clarke addressed this by having his sublight starship freezing
a
>> giant iceberg in front of it, to do the job of Trek's navigational
>> deflector.
>
>
>But even that is a one-shot wonder. OK, it protects the space ship from
>the first significant meteorite it hits, but is probably devastated in
>the process. Now what happens if a second pesky pebble gets in the way?
After a meteor gouged out most of the shield, the ship decelerated
rapidly and changed course for the first water-bearing planet to rebuild
the shield. The story was told from the POV of the colonists on the
planet where they stopped for repairs.
He-Who-Would-Like-To-See-Some-Of-Clarke's-Books-Done-Right-On-The-Screen
If thinking is too hard, quote the Bible.
James Ward
>
> "Allen W. McDonnell" <tan...@provide.net> wrote:
>
> > Two problems with this, #1 Full impulse is .99c, not .25c. .25c is
> one
> > quarter impulse and the reason they prefer .25c is retarded because
> it takes
> > up to .8c before reletivistic effects become noticibly large. You
> could
> > literally travel several light years at .8c and only have a few days
> clock
> > difference when you arrive so the so called .25c impulse limit is
> goofy.
>
> To you and I the time differences would not make that much of a
> difference maybe, but when you consider that the ship is then possibly
> going to go flying off at a few thousand times c and base their
> position on the galactic version of the GPS even one billionth of a
> second difference between their clocks and the gps clocks would mean
> they are several thousand km off at the end of the warp run.
It would be a simple matter to place a time base correction program into
the guidance computer to account for the time distortion. You could actually
write that today, if you assume you have a device to give you the exact
speed of the ship during its flight.
--
buckysan
annapuma and unapumma in 98
44% of people think there is intelligent life besides earth
44% of people think there is intelligent life in washington DC
James Ward
>
> But lightning kills more than 100 people every year (more than tornados),
> and causes millions of dollars in damage. You would think they would want to
> control it somehow. Maybe she was hearing it strike lightning rods or
> something.
There are 2 different views on weather control.
One is the naive view that you can simply shut down all "bad" weather
and the other is that you really only want to stop "extreme" weather.
There have been more than enough references to storms still occuring on
planets that we know should have weather control in ST that clearly they
take the second view. Really, it only takes redirecting weather energy
to keep away the extreme weather, but you would have to actually disperse
the weather energy to get rid of all storms alltogether.
James Ward
>
> In article <388196D3...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>,
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >When the fight started, why didn't anyone yell "FREEZE PROGRAM!"?
>
> That's the same question I was wondering about. Kim seemed to think
> he had to get to the holodeck controls to do something about the fight.
> However, we've seen in the past that all someone needs to do is ask
> the computer to freeze the program and it will. I think this is another
> time that TPTB decided to ignore previously established methods because
> it was inconvenient for them.
It might have had something to do with the fact that they had set
up that program to run continously over several days. To let the crew
play around, some of the normal command functions might have been turned
off. It also might be that only specific people could modify the controls,
I could see Tom turning off the controls actually.
James Ward
>
> Walt <Wa...@Early.com> wrote:
>
> > I thought in the first session, it was made very clear that the
> > holodecks used an independent power source from the rest of the
> > ship. This was the reason given for the holodecks to still be
> > in use when the rest of the ship was on a "low power" alert.
>
> Which is in contradiction to the ST:TNG episode "Booby Trap" where
> Geordi makes the holodeck similation with Leah Brahms. During power
> conservation, the holodecks were the first thing they turned off, not
> the last!
Well, we don't know what effect making the program a standing 24 hour
a day program for R&R did to its normal priority.
James Ward
>
> Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
>
> > Hmmm..... any tech heads here ever crunch real numbers for the viscosity
> > of the interstellar medium? At a high enough relativistic speed it would
> > certainly be substantial...... maybe the storied "Bussard Collectors"
> > would come into play, allowing a starship to operate as a ramjet?
>
> i don't know that there would be any real drag due to space itself.
The current offical objectives of both the Pioneer and Voyager probes is
to actually measure the desnity of the inter stellar medium. There is no
question that they would be a drag within interstellar space to some degree.
Actualy I think some of the theories about the orbital periods of stars
within the galaxies is dependant on it being measuable.
> starship into a stray proton in space when moving at .75c would be like
> running an aircraft carrier into an iceberg. even subatomic particles can
> have devasting destructive power at those speeds. the navigational deflector
> is meant to protect the ship from these particles, so i wonder how the
> bussard collectors would catch them if the deflector is pushing them out of
> the way? yet another trek contradiction perhaps...
Simple, you deflect the particles *into* the collectors. Think of it
like an oversized funnel or somesort. Remember the collectors are off
to the sides of the ships normal axis of motion as they can be.
Richard Van Fossan
> In an Einsteinian Universe, you get about 5% distortion at 0.5c
> (guess), which will start seriously affecting your calcs. By 0.8c the
> distortion will be approaching 15% to 20% and climbing steeply,
> meaning you have to expend much more power/fuel to achieve similar
> acceleration. Eventually of course, your power requirements will
> approach infinity as you approach C. Not that that has anything to do
> with my apology :-)
No need to guess. The time dilation is proportional to a factor called
"Tau." The formula for Tau is:
(1/(1-(v/c)^2))
This works out to:
0.5 0.75 1.3
0.6 0.64 1.6
0.7 0.51 2.0
0.8 0.36 2.8
0.9 0.19 5.3
0.95 0.0975 10.3
0.99 0.0199 50.3
0.999 0.001999 500.3
0.9999 0.0002 5000.3
0.99999 2E-05 50000.3
The first column is fraction of light speed. The second column is how fast
time seems to flow on the accelerated object. The last is how fast time
seems to flow outside. Thus, at .5 light speed, time travels at 75% of the
rate it does for unaccelerated objects. At 90% C, the outside universe is
clipping along 5 times faster, and a bit over 99.99% C, we see the same time
dilation (10 seconds=~1 day) mentioned in the ads for this week's Voyager.
Even at 99% C, we see that one day on Voyager would be seven weeks to the
universe.
BTS
Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in article
<snip>
> If thinking is too hard, quote the Bible.
LOL. Mind if I steal this upon occassion?
--
later...
b.t.s.
occassionally, I'm callous and strange - btvs
William December Starr
"BTS" <deletethi...@usxchange.net> said:
> Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in article
>
> <snip>
>
>> If thinking is too hard, quote the Bible.
>
> LOL. Mind if I steal this upon occassion?
Me too! I wanna steal it too!
-- William December Starr <wds...@crl.com>
The movie was far worse than the trailer. Specifically, it was longer.
-- Michael P. Kube-McDowell, re "Starship Troopers"
HouseQuake
> >to have unbelievably strong magnetic fields to wrangle them in. running
> >a starship into a stray proton in space when moving at .75c would be like
> >running an aircraft carrier into an iceberg. even subatomic particles
> >can have devasting destructive power at those speeds.
>
> Have they ever said of the Bussard Collectors use magnetism or some
> treknobabble?
>
> IIRC the relativistic mass increase at .75c wouldn't allow a single
> proton to damage the ship's structure, but the interstellar hydrogen, at
> that speed, would be like a hail of cosmic rays. In "Songs of Distant
> Earth" Clarke addressed this by having his sublight starship freezing a
> giant iceberg in front of it, to do the job of Trek's navigational
> deflector.
one of clarke's best works imho.
remind me not to toss my freshman physics around too quickly :)
hq
BTS
ta'HoS <ta'H...@ejohnson.net> wrote in message
: In article <01bf6292$beb76320$b7e72fd8@bs>,
: deletethi...@usxchange.net says...
: > Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in article
: > <snip>
: > > If thinking is too hard, quote the Bible.
: > LOL. Mind if I steal this upon occassion?
: Hmmm . . . perhaps you just made his point.
I didn't realize that Bozo was the Bible. It would certainly tempt me to
read it again if this were the case. But no, I don't think I made his
point.
ta'HoS
ta'HoS
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> If thinking is too hard, quote the Bible.
> >
> > LOL. Mind if I steal this upon occassion?
>
>
Another creative thinker joins the fun . . . .