Another Hiatus?
Gamin Davis
if everybody thinks my stories of late just inhale sharply, but I've gotten
hardly any comments after I posted the last two except for a couple of one-
line things from Selek and T'Rhys. I was going to post some brand-new
stuff in an effort to get some feedback on stories due to come out in my
next zine, but it seems kind of pointless if I'm not going to get any more
response than this.
I'm thinking maybe I should wait for a while--a week or two, maybe
more--before I bother to post anything else, unless somebody here can
convince me otherwise.
Gamin, really depressed and stressed-out by RL
T'Rhys
Could be any number of things - spring break, early vacations, tax
season (due in 3 days!), cons (isn't Revelcon about now?), or
unreliable newsfeeds (mine's been somewhat sporadic recently). Don't
let it get you down. Nobody on ASC commented when I posted "The K/S
Scrolls" a while back either, but quite a few people on ASCEML
commented. Maybe you should try there. Personally, I like your stories
and will read whatever you put up.
LL&P
T'Rhys
Jungle Kitty
>Take a look at Wildcat, at Jungle Kitty, some of skazitelnitsky's
(spelling?)
> >work--
>
And Maria Hidalgo wrote:
> Hey don't worry--I was kidding. I agree--no one's work should be lightly
> dismissed bec. their work is in a particular category--that was kinda my point.
> Not only do some of my favorite authors on the NG not do slash but some of my
> favorite works by "slash" authors are their "non-slash" works. I like Jungle
> Kitty's Contemplating the Death of an Old Friend AND Rain Check AND Golden Boy.
Thanks, Raku and Maria. And Maria, an extra-special thank-you for
mentioning Rain Check. Right now, it's my favorite of my own stuff.
I'm allowed to say that, aren't I? :-D
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
--------------------------------------------------
Space.
It's big.
It's dark.
It's spooky.
-- Voiceover from "XXX Trek"
--------------------------------------------------
Gamin Davis
<38f4a5e1...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>:
>season (due in 3 days!), cons (isn't Revelcon about now?), or
>unreliable newsfeeds (mine's been somewhat sporadic recently). Don't
>let it get you down. Nobody on ASC commented when I posted "The K/S
>Scrolls" a while back either, but quite a few people on ASCEML
>commented. Maybe you should try there. Personally, I like your stories
>and will read whatever you put up.
Revelcon was a few weeks back, in March sometime. And I have checked
both my newsreader and Deja, so it's not the newsfeed. Tax time, maybe--
but I see *other* stories getting responses. And I can't post *anything*
to ASCEM (haven't been able to for some time), besides which, my stories,
not being adult in nature, aren't really appropriate for that NG, anyway.
I did see your "K/S Scrolls", BTW, but didn't read them because, as most
people know, I'm not into slash. The ASC Awards don't seem to be totally
finished--I suppose that could have something to do with it. Sigh.
Gamin
Maria Hidalgo
>finished--I suppose that could have something to do with it. Sigh.
You do TOS don't you? I don't read them because I'm not into non-slash ;).
Seriously though I've noticed TOS stories don't get much feedback on this
Newsgroup period compared to Voyager while ASCEM, for all the adult nature of
the group, may very well be the better place for your stories--there are a lot
more people interested in The Original Series there. Even TOS stories I
consider excellent on ASC often get surprisingly little feedback--maybe just
one or two posts--even when they are general stories.
I wouldn't take it personally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My love has wings;
slender feathered thing;
with grace in upswept curve
and tapered tip...
Tarbolde of Canopus--aka Roddenberry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Raku2u
>
Maria, you're saying this tongue-in-cheek, right? There's a fair chunk of TOS
fanfic that has nothing to do with slash, and I'd hate to see those authors
missing out (and you missing their stories!) because you think TOS=slash.
Take a look at Wildcat, at Jungle Kitty, some of skazitelnitsky's (spelling?)
work--
raku
Maria Hidalgo
Hey don't worry--I was kidding. I agree--no one's work should be lightly
dismissed bec. their work is in a particular category--that was kinda my point.
Not only do some of my favorite authors on the NG not do slash but some of my
favorite works by "slash" authors are their "non-slash" works. I like Jungle
Kitty's Contemplating the Death of an Old Friend AND Rain Check AND Golden Boy.
Just as I like Wildcat's "Seed of Retribution" AND "A Roll of the Dice"
Hey like I said--I like anything Jat-Sapphire writes--whether it's f/f like
Leadership, gen like Training the Hero and Kaddish, or m/m like Still Amok.
All I care about is that they're great stories.
The Evil J Winter
star2bri...@aol.com (Maria Hidalgo) writes:
>Seriously though I've noticed TOS stories don't get much feedback on this
>Newsgroup period compared to Voyager while ASCEM,...
Well, now, that may be true at the moment, but remember that everything goes in
cycles. There was a point earlier in the year that you couldn't swing a TOS
story without getting feedback. There was such a dearth of TOS that I think
readers were starved for it.
Voyager is always going to outpace the other series because it's on the air
right now. Watch what happens after it goes off the air. You'll see the
number of Voyager stories drop dramatically. It'll fall more in line with the
other three series simply because it's not there every week.
As for TOS appealing more to slash fans, that may be true, but it's been said a
little too often recently that no one reads TOS anymore. Wasn't it just a few
weeks ago that the same was being said for DS9?
I think TOS' appeal is in a lull right now, for whatever reason. I've also
seen a decline in TNG lately. Not much, but I've noticed that it's starting to
take a backseat to the recently lamented DS9.
Hmm...
I call these odd things trends.
J
This is an antispamming address. To respond, email JWint...@ay-oh-el.com.
Come read the adventures of the starships Alliance
http://w3.one.net/~tribeguy/alliance/allhome.htm
Rabble Rouser
>
I finally read that last night as I finished reading every last story of yours
I hadn't had a chance to before. I loved it but I don't think I'm any too
thrilled that you make San Francisco sound so appealing. Why the hell did TPTB
have to put the academy there? I think say uh NYC would have been a better
choice <eg>
Loved the Durant cameo. The whole thing seemed to be the most cinematic of
your stories. The kind of vehicle they give these days to Meg Ryan and Tom
Hanks. (not that I think either would make a good Brandt or Kirk
respectively...)
RR, hopeless romantic and native New Yorker.
_ _ _
Story Page
http://www.geocities.com/rabble_rouser_st/
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
--T.S. Eliot
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Evil J Winter
<jki...@accesscom.com> writes:
>I'm allowed to say that, aren't I? :-D
>--
>Jungle Kitty
>http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
I'd answer that, but then I'd be accused of being too biased toward that story.
Go to JK's web site and find out why.
Then go to mine and find out where the name "Shoes" came from.
(Hint: Involves large quantities of hops-based beverage alcohol and waking up
on a floor you don't exactly remember walking on. Jude Law indeed!)
J,
indulging in shameless cross-promotion
PS: It really is a killer story, if only for the mention of "sodium corbomite"
and "Yes! W-w-war!"
Lori
> Revelcon was a few weeks back, in March sometime. And I have checked
>both my newsreader and Deja, so it's not the newsfeed. Tax time, maybe--
>but I see *other* stories getting responses. And I can't post *anything*
>to ASCEM (haven't been able to for some time), besides which, my stories,
>not being adult in nature, aren't really appropriate for that NG, anyway.
>I did see your "K/S Scrolls", BTW, but didn't read them because, as most
>people know, I'm not into slash. The ASC Awards don't seem to be totally
>finished--I suppose that could have something to do with it. Sigh.
> Gamin
Take heart, Gamin. My last two posted stories got me one email apiece.
I know there are people somewhere out there reading my stuff -- each time I
post, I include my webpage addy and see a surge in hits. I just have no idea
whether they like, dislike or are indifferent to it, or who they are...
except for my two most faithful feedbackers Pam and Mariel.
I've flirted with the idea of no longer posting things to the ng and just
putting up a note that says I've updated my website, but I'm still debating.
The thing is, you can't wring feedback from a lurker -- and I also recognize
that some of what I've done lately may not make much sense unless you've
read other things I've written. Plus I've been playing with TNG characters,
which is great if you choose one of the Almighty Pairings, but no, I had to
be different and write T/m R/f.... At least I have P/C to my advantage.
But if I only have an audience of two -- oh well. I enjoy writing it as much
as I enjoy hearing that other people enjoy reading it.
Too much enjoyment in that sentence for this early, and before coffee. Ugh.
FWIW -- I started to read your story, but somehow missed two middle parts.
Got a website addy for it? Or, if you would be so kind, email it to my
alternate email addy so I can read the whole thing later --
kerz...@REMOVEearthlink.net.
Thanks for more Spock stuff -- gotta love the guy.
Lori
T'Rhys
> And I have checked
>both my newsreader and Deja, so it's not the newsfeed.
Not the newsfeed from your ISP to usenet, the ones propagating from
usenet to other people's services. My ISP's newsservers have a
tendency to skip posts for no good reason - that I can see, anyway -
and that sort of thing is not unique to Netcom (Demon in the UK is/was
another). Deja just happens to have better servers than most, which I
would expect since they set themselves up as a usenet archiving
service. Wouldn't make sense for them to have servers that habitually
skip posts.
> And I can't post *anything*
>to ASCEM (haven't been able to for some time), besides which, my stories,
>not being adult in nature, aren't really appropriate for that NG, anyway.
There are all sorts of stories on ASCEM, including G rated. It says
all categories are welcome in the FAQ and they mean it. The ng itself
is out of synch with the mirror mailing list right now (technical
difficulties), so the best way to post to ASCEM is to join ASCEML on
egroups/onelist.
LL&P
T'Rhys
Claudia Groiss
[...]
> As for TOS appealing more to slash fans, that may be true, but it's been said a
> little too often recently that no one reads TOS anymore. Wasn't it just a few
> weeks ago that the same was being said for DS9?
I can't speak about TOS, because I neither read nor write it, but it is
no secret that DS9 is the least popular of the Trek series if it comes
to fanfiction. Just check the number of votes DS9 works received in the
ASC awards: some categories got one at best. I know, because I kept
track.
And let's be honest: the ASC contributors are in fact a bunch of
cliques, whose members send feeback to each other and as a rule to
nobody else. I do not except myself: I always compliment Mark Stanley on
his stories (they are worth the praise, mind you, else I won't do it)and
he returns the favour. But this is of course intellectual inbreeding of
the highest order.
The reasons for my reluctance to send feedback are manyfold, the most
important being that I read few genres: since the only characters I like
in DS9 are the Cardassians, I rarely read stories about anyone else. I
hate Kirk, so much of TOS falls by the wayside. I admire Picard (and
cherish most of the TNG crew), but I always thought that TNG didn't need
much "fleshing out". They told almost everything I could wish for. What
makes things worse, if it comes to aliens, I cringe when they behave
like humans, and I'm turned off by het romances. A habit Cavalaxis
sometimes makes me break with, though.
I still had no problems writing feedback, but I'm not going to lie
(strange for an Garak fan, isn't it?). If I find a certain aspect of a
story strange, at least to my tastes, I want to say so. But I found out
that people react almost hysterically when you ask them how they came to
think like they did. As if something's wrong with having different
opinions!
When I first posted to ASC, knowing that my takings on Cardassia are a
bit strange, I expected some outrage in the line of "Where the $§&"%§&"!
did this idea come from?". Instead, silence. Oh yes, some positive
reaction from the usual suspects (cliques, remember?).
Well, I'm still convinced that confrontation is the incentive for all
progress. But I have long given up the hope to find it in this NG. I
will continue posting my stories, because the prospect that a single
reader out there might enjoy them is reason enough for me. I recommend,
however, not to expect feedback at all. I spares you a lot of
disappointment.
regards
Claudia
britta
cgr...@aon.at wrote:
{much good stuff snipped}
> I will continue posting my stories, because the prospect that a
> single reader out there might enjoy them is reason enough for me.
> I recommend, however, not to expect feedback at all. It spares
> you a lot of disappointment.
You said it! That's one of the resons I continue to post.
I come close to fainting with shock if anyone on this NG responds
to something of mine. However, I can also say that there's not
much that interests me reading-wise here. When I do see something,
chances are I've already responded to it elsewhere.
Britta, who does *not* live for feedback
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bishclone
>And let's be honest: the ASC contributors are in fact a bunch of
>cliques, whose members send feeback to each other and as a rule to
>nobody else.
Yup - I can see what you mean. But that's one part - 'I've know his/her and
have read their stories - I think this is a safe bet' and two parts 'scan,
scan, scan - my series, pairing I like - I'll read.' Or, at least, that's how
I work it...but we do tend to group somewhat...by the criteria of the stories
we write...
> I do not except myself: I always compliment Mark Stanley on
>his stories (they are worth the praise, mind you, else I won't do it)and
>he returns the favour. But this is of course intellectual inbreeding of
>the highest order.
But fun all the same?
<snipped>
>I still had no problems writing feedback, but I'm not going to lie
>(strange for an Garak fan, isn't it?). If I find a certain aspect of a
>story strange, at least to my tastes, I want to say so. But I found out
>that people react almost hysterically when you ask them how they came to
>think like they did. As if something's wrong with having different
>opinions!
Yeah. But, oh, I have yet to meet somewhere who is totally secure in their
writings... Most are insecure, racked by 'Oh God, they're going to hate it'
mutterings...and pacing a hole into the carpet around their apple mac. I've
done it myself, you're offering yourself up to the big guys and someone asks a
question and you sit there and you beat your head against your mouse and wonder
'why oh why didn't I see that' and, eventually you over-react...okay, maybe
that's just my humble experience.
But as a reader and feedbacker, I find...oh, dear...that if I want to ask a
question, or query something then I mail them privately - and anything nice
that I have to say, or positive, I won't post publicly - out, of, well, respect
of the author.
>When I first posted to ASC, knowing that my takings on Cardassia are a
>bit strange, I expected some outrage in the line of "Where the $§&"%§&"!
>did this idea come from?". Instead, silence. Oh yes, some positive
>reaction from the usual suspects (cliques, remember?).
Things don't tend to ripple much here, do they? I mean fanfic wise. But,
maybe, we're all afflicted by over-politeness...and maybe it's not productive,
then again, it's not destructive...and it doesn't create an oppressive
atmosphere with a hierarchy of posters...(those who can dissect the best...)
But then, with this view, I also take into account that I'm probably missing
the point - silence doesn't help anyone any, doesn't get those brain cells
whirring...*sigh* watch as Kat completes her circle of thought...
>Well, I'm still convinced that confrontation is the incentive for all
>progress.
Depending on your definition of confrontation.
> But I have long given up the hope to find it >in this NG.
Hmm - relatively new here. Know what it's like to be a real newbie. Pretty
sure ASC offers a nice, calming, environment for really new authors like myself
to post...and not shrink away afterwards...
> I
>will continue posting my stories, because the prospect that a single
>reader out there might enjoy them is reason enough for me.
That's how I see ASC anyway. A fanfic machine - lucky dip, press that button
and see what comes out today. And lo and behold you may just surprise yourself
with what you decide to read...that's why I like it here...
> I recommend,
>however, not to expect feedback at all. I spares you a lot of
>disappointment.
Just to shrug, shut your eyes, and press that send. Yeah...as Britta said,
write because you need to, because someone might enjoy it...even if, for lack
of financial endorsement...it is nice to get a cyber pat on the back...
>regards
>Claudia
Thanks for the insighful comments,
Kat~
>
>
>
>
>
Jungle Kitty
>
> In article <38F60D90...@aon.at>, Claudia Groiss <cgr...@aon.at> writes:
>
> >And let's be honest: the ASC contributors are in fact a bunch of
> >cliques,
>
> people. Usually, it's from people I've never heard of, most often lurkers.
I have some regular feedbackers but most of the comments I receive
aren't posted to the NG and I do hear from people who say, "I've been
reading your stuff for a long time but this is the first time I've sent
feedback."
I think I see what Claudia means about cliques, but I don't think it's
cliquish in a deliberate, cruel, "let's not send feedback to hir" sort
of way. I think it's just a natural process that occurs in any
environment that attracts more than a few people. In general, it tends
to break up into smaller groups with common interests.
To me, the value of a general forum like this is that there *is* the
opportunity to develop an interest in something outside your initial
inclination, and when we have a discussion that isn't specific to a
series or pairing, anyone can jump in.
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
--------------------------------------------------
The Evil J Winter
>And let's be honest: the ASC contributors are in fact a bunch of
>cliques,
If that were true, 90% of the feedback I get would be from a total of five
people. Usually, it's from people I've never heard of, most often lurkers.
I'm not sure if they scan one post, then go to the web site (in my sig at all
times), or if they do manage to pull down all 10-70 parts. Really, most of the
"clique" of people I deal with either give feedback during the creative
process, or they seldom say anything. I often do a double-take whenever I rea
someone I talk to on a regular basis give a rundown on something I wrote when
they never say anything to me. The people who give me the real feedback from
the standpoint you mention you can count on one hand. Everyone else is a
lurker.
And so I continue to post.
J
Gamin Davis
<20000412205602...@ng-cg1.aol.com>:
>;).
Okay.
>Seriously though I've noticed TOS stories don't get much feedback on
>this Newsgroup period compared to Voyager while ASCEM, for all the adult
>nature of the group, may very well be the better place for your stories-
>-there are a lot more people interested in The Original Series there.
>Even TOS stories I consider excellent on ASC often get surprisingly
>little feedback--maybe just one or two posts--even when they are general
>stories.
> I wouldn't take it personally.
First off, *other* people's non-slash TOS gets plenty of comments.
Secondly, as I've said previously, *I CAN'T* post to ASCEM. I don't think
that's the problem. A lot of the same people read both NGs, thus the
people who are interested in TOS there are frequently also reading this
one. If they don't like non-slash, tough tacos; I figure there are more
than enough people writing that sub-genre, and I don't need to do that just
to get people to comment. I don't write slash, period. Those who prefer
that can read somebody else's stories--there are more than enough of them
on both NGs to go around.
Thanks for trying, but I feel like I'm putting out more effort in
posting my stories than people are taking to give me feedback.
Gamin
Gamin Davis
<YAlJ4.13192$q67.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
Uh-huh...that's about where I am now.
>I know there are people somewhere out there reading my stuff -- each
>time I post, I include my webpage addy and see a surge in hits. I just
>have no idea whether they like, dislike or are indifferent to it, or who
>they are... except for my two most faithful feedbackers Pam and Mariel.
That's all well and good if you keep your stories on a website. Mine
are in *zines* so I *can't* put them on a website as all the zines, well,
all but two, are still in print. This is my *only way* to get fast
feedback, and especially with some yet-to-be-printed stories, that was what
I was after.
>I've flirted with the idea of no longer posting things to the ng and
>just putting up a note that says I've updated my website, but I'm still
>debating. The thing is, you can't wring feedback from a lurker -- and I
>also recognize that some of what I've done lately may not make much
>sense unless you've read other things I've written. Plus I've been
>playing with TNG characters, which is great if you choose one of the
>Almighty Pairings, but no, I had to be different and write T/m R/f....
>At least I have P/C to my advantage.
Well, most of mine focus on Kirk and Spock or Spock and his family, so
not dealing with popular pairings/characters is not IMO my problem.
>FWIW -- I started to read your story, but somehow missed two middle
>parts. Got a website addy for it? Or, if you would be so kind, email it
>to my alternate email addy so I can read the whole thing later --
>kerz...@REMOVEearthlink.net.
Which story? I know for a fact that all of "Memories Born of Fire" is
on Deja, though I haven't checked for "Against Tradition". I also don't
have it on disk yet, so I can't E-mail it, anyway. I'd gotten about half
of it typed in last weekend and the *&^% computer faulted out and wiped it
out, and I've been too disgusted to sit down to retype it. I have
"Memories", though.
>Thanks for more Spock stuff -- gotta love the guy.
<g>
Gamin
Gamin Davis
>usenet to other people's services. My ISP's newsservers have a
But it's been *a week* since I finished posting "Against Tradition" and
closer to *3 weeks* since finishing posting "Memories". It seems to me
that's more than sufficient time for other people to see both stories!
>Deja just happens to have better servers than most, which I
>would expect since they set themselves up as a usenet archiving
>service.
Like I said, I check Deja daily. No comments *there*, either.
>There are all sorts of stories on ASCEM, including G rated. It says
>all categories are welcome in the FAQ and they mean it. The ng itself
>is out of synch with the mirror mailing list right now (technical
>difficulties), so the best way to post to ASCEM is to join ASCEML on
>egroups/onelist.
SIGH. Again, I have NO WAY to post ANYTHING to ASCEM; my E-mail
account will not support mailing lists, and my newsreader won't let me post
anything *at all* to it except E-mail to the person I want to respond to.
On Deja, I can only respond to other people's posts (which strikes me as a
major drawback, BTW), not start a thread myself, in ASCEM or any other NG.
Gamin
Rabble Rouser
>>;).
>
>than enough people writing that sub-genre, and I don't need >to do that just
to get people to comment. I don't write slash, >period. Those who prefer
>that can read somebody else's <stories--there are more than enough of them >on
both NGs >to go around.
Ah Gamin...she followed that with an emoticon that indicates she was winking at
you--and perhaps gently chiding you for so cavalierly dismissing T'Rhys stories
in the way you did. In fact she made it clear in the follow up post that she
does very much like non-slash piece.
I don't write slash either--period. Unlike you I enjoy reading it , but my
muse just doesn't seem to work that way. Nevertheless when I used to post to
ASCEM I got more feedback for my decidedly non-slash non-explicit stories there
than on ASC. It's easier to feedback on ASCEM via the email feed and it has a
large and enthusiastic audience for TOS. Several authors I don't want to bring
into this conversation ag. their will have noted the difference in feedback to
their TOS stories bet. the NGs. Jat's Kaddish for instance has gotten far
more, and far more detailed, feedback there than here.
I'm sorry if a lack of feedback makes you feel that posting here is more
trouble than it's worth. I don't know an author here who feels they get
enough<g> Occupational hazard. I certainly try hard not to take it personally.
I don't want to beg--it's not becoming behavior.
Jungle Kitty
> SIGH. Again, I have NO WAY to post ANYTHING to ASCEM; my E-mail
> account will not support mailing lists, and my newsreader won't let me post
> anything *at all* to it except E-mail to the person I want to respond to.
> On Deja, I can only respond to other people's posts (which strikes me as a
> major drawback, BTW), not start a thread myself, in ASCEM or any other NG.
> Gamin
Can you send email? Send it to asc...@earthlink.net. That's how many
people (including myself) posted before ASCEML went to OneList and,
AFAIK, that addy is still in effect.
Gamin Davis
>And let's be honest: the ASC contributors are in fact a bunch of
>his stories (they are worth the praise, mind you, else I won't do it)and
>he returns the favour. But this is of course intellectual inbreeding of
>the highest order.
This has also been my perception, although for the record, I myself
don't belong to a "clique" and will feedback any story I find interesting,
regardless of who wrote it. It does explain my observation that the ASC
Awards in the TOS category seem to have been dominated by 4-5 people all
voting for each other's stories and nobody else's. There's nothing wrong
with having favorite authors, but I feel like it borders on discrimination
against myself and other writers who may produce work that is quite good
but doesn't get read because we're not part of the "the in-group". [End of
rant.]
>The reasons for my reluctance to send feedback are manyfold, the most
>important being that I read few genres: since the only characters I like
>in DS9 are the Cardassians, I rarely read stories about anyone else. I
>hate Kirk, so much of TOS falls by the wayside. I admire Picard (and
>cherish most of the TNG crew), but I always thought that TNG didn't need
>much "fleshing out". They told almost everything I could wish for. What
>makes things worse, if it comes to aliens, I cringe when they behave
>like humans, and I'm turned off by het romances. A habit Cavalaxis
>sometimes makes me break with, though.
Boy do our views differ. You hate Kirk, I hate Picard and most of the
TNG crew, nor do I like DS9 at all. (I do share your tendency to read a
limited number of genres--I don't read DS9 or TNG at all; my focus is TOS,
though I'll read an occasional VOY.) But then, I also dislike slash of any
variety--yet I will occasionally read K/S. I think of it as a challenge.
There's always a chance that someone will surprise me and write something
in that sub-genre that I like. I had hoped someone would take that
attitude with my stories, even if they usually "hate Kirk" or non-slash or
whatever they hate that I happen to write. Silly me...
>I still had no problems writing feedback, but I'm not going to lie
>(strange for an Garak fan, isn't it?). If I find a certain aspect of a
>story strange, at least to my tastes, I want to say so. But I found out
>that people react almost hysterically when you ask them how they came to
>think like they did. As if something's wrong with having different
>opinions!
Claudia, I welcome any and all opinions, as long as they're not flames
and the person commenting is willing to discuss hir comments. I *love* to
talk about my stories to people, regardless of whether they're immediately
sold on what I've written or not.
>Well, I'm still convinced that confrontation is the incentive for all
>progress. But I have long given up the hope to find it in this NG. I
I've generated a good bit of "confrontation" on this NG myself.
Sometimes, all you have to do is disagree with those who think they own all
rights to any opinions on TOS.
>I recommend,
>however, not to expect feedback at all. I spares you a lot of
>disappointment.
Unfortunately, if nobody gives me feedback, I have no real reason to
post stories. They're all in zines, anyway, most of which are still in
print--so if I'm not going to get any more feedback here than I do from my
zines (and I do get some, because I print both my snail-mail and E-mail
address in the zine), there's no advantage to it for me to post here vs.
just in zines.
Gamin
Gamin Davis
>You said it! That's one of the resons I continue to post.
>I come close to fainting with shock if anyone on this NG responds
>to something of mine. However, I can also say that there's not
>much that interests me reading-wise here. When I do see something,
>chances are I've already responded to it elsewhere.
>Britta, who does *not* live for feedback
Well, Britta, you are probably not an aspiring professional writer
with a currently-bottomed-out self-esteem level, and I am guilty on both
counts. As far as this NG, I *do* "live for feedback". If I don't get it,
there's no point for me in posting stories. (See my other responses in
this thread.)
Gamin
Rabble Rouser
>Awards in the TOS category seem to have been dominated by 4-5 people all
>voting for each other's stories and nobody else's. There's nothing wrong
>with having favorite authors, but I feel like it borders on discrimination
>against myself and other writers who may produce work that is quite good
>but doesn't get read because we're not part of the "the in-group".>>
And this is precisely what makes me cringe ab. the public nature of the voting
for the ASC awards. I was almost afraid to vote at all for fear people would
take note of who and what I voted for and that there might be hard feelings
bec. of that. The above is one of the best arguments I can make for going to
an anonymous comment's/counting list.
Robin Lawrie
Gamin Davis <arkiet...@usa.net> wrote
> SIGH. Again, I have NO WAY to post ANYTHING to ASCEM; my E-mail
> account will not support mailing lists, and my newsreader won't let me
post
> anything *at all* to it except E-mail to the person I want to respond to.
> On Deja, I can only respond to other people's posts (which strikes me as a
> major drawback, BTW), not start a thread myself, in ASCEM or any other NG.
> Gamin
Here's a fix. Go to the eGroups website and subscribe to asceml as "web
only". It's much better than checking Deja (so this leads me to assume you
can check www sites). The messages can be sorted by order posted or by
thread in case you want to follow a particular topic. Much easier to follow
than Deja anyday. You can post to the list from the website as well, and
respond to other people's posts there.
Hope this helps.
Robin
Raku2u
><< It does explain my observation that the ASC
>>Awards in the TOS category seem to have been dominated by 4-5 people all
>>voting for each other's stories and nobody else's. There's nothing wrong
>>with having favorite authors, but I feel like it borders on discrimination
>>against myself and other writers who may produce work that is quite good
>>but doesn't get read because we're not part of the "the in-group".>>
>
>And this is precisely what makes me cringe ab. the public nature of the
>voting
>for the ASC awards. I was almost afraid to vote at all for fear people would
>take note of who and what I voted for and that there might be hard feelings
>bec. of that. The above is one of the best arguments I can make for going to
>an anonymous comment's/counting list.
I haven't noticed whether the voters were just a small group. I did note that
the few Voy votes I cast never showed up that I could see. In the end I just
sent some extra feedback to a few people, figuring that was the point of the
voting as Stephen phrased it anyway.
raku
-----
"The Learning Curve," hypertext TOS story, is online at
http://members.aol.com/U2ukar
Other stories and some by a few friends online at
http://members.aol.com/Raku2u
-----
Raku2u
> Well, Britta, you are probably not an aspiring professional writer
>with a currently-bottomed-out self-esteem level, and I am guilty on both
>counts. As far as this NG, I *do* "live for feedback". If I don't get it,
>there's no point for me in posting stories. (See my other responses in
>this thread.)
Gamin, how about the benefit you're offering to readers who can't or won't send
you feedback? Isn't there some good in the process for them? As someone else
remarked, we can often tell a new story is being read, because you can see the
hit counter jump on a home page. I assume there are some folks out there who
are too shy to send feedback, or don't know how, or don't realize there are
current real live writers they could talk with. Some might have to be reading
clandestinely, I suppose; look at the stories people tell about how they became
Trek fans, what it means to them, some of the experiences they've had in their
lives (go check the Trilly threads for REAL good examples of late).
I hope that things I write are interesting and maybe helpful to some folks--I
like it when they feed me back, but I never told Hemingway I liked "The Sun
Also Rises" except by buying a copy of the book--I'd say that pro feedback is
less direct, and less frequent, and often more brutal than what we see here. I
think about pro writing also, but I know that if I go that way, I'll pretty
much have to kiss good bye the direct support I get in NG's.
Federation Historian
your address. Also, I will be building a gen site with no sexually explicit
stories. It will have the logs and letters series, and non Startrek fiction. If
you want me to post your stuff on the website, I will.
http://istannor.tripod.com/Istannor.html.
Enjoy!Come read the true History of the Starship Enterprise 1701 and 1701A and
their Intrepid crews. ;-D
Stephen Ratliff
>>
>><< It does explain my observation that the ASC
>>>Awards in the TOS category seem to have been dominated by 4-5 people all
>>>voting for each other's stories and nobody else's. There's nothing wrong
>>>with having favorite authors, but I feel like it borders on discrimination
>>>against myself and other writers who may produce work that is quite good
>>>but doesn't get read because we're not part of the "the in-group".>>
>>
>>And this is precisely what makes me cringe ab. the public nature of the
>>voting
>>for the ASC awards. I was almost afraid to vote at all for fear people would
>>take note of who and what I voted for and that there might be hard feelings
>>bec. of that. The above is one of the best arguments I can make for going to
>>an anonymous comment's/counting list.
>
>I haven't noticed whether the voters were just a small group. I did note that
>the few Voy votes I cast never showed up that I could see. In the end I just
>sent some extra feedback to a few people, figuring that was the point of the
>voting as Stephen phrased it anyway.
Sorry raku, I'm running a tad behind on Comment Digests at the moment. Job
searching has overwealmed me a little this week.
Stephen
--
Stephen Ratliff FAQ Maintainer:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~stephenratliff/FAQs/
"When we put on this uniform, Mr. Hornblower, we enter a life of
adventure and adversity, but above all, a life of duty."
- Captain Pellew "Horatio Hornblower: The Wrong War"
Federation Historian
> Well, Britta, you are probably not an aspiring professional writer
>with a currently-bottomed-out self-esteem level, and I am guilty on both
>counts. As far as this NG, I *do* "live for feedback". If I don't get it,
>there's no point for me in posting stories. (See my other responses in
>this thread.)
> Gamin
I feel ya Gamin, but writing and posting to this newsgroup is an unreliable way
to help our egos. We can't depend on anyone outside ourselves to do that. I
told you that I would give detailed feedback on a story, and you told me it was
old and sorta set as it was. I thought it best to wait for a fresh one. Was I
wrong and I should've psoted on the zine story? If so, I will.
ASC takes my tales and swallows them without a ripple lately.I used to get
20-30 feedbacks on any story. The minimum was 10. Now, I am lucky if I get two.
<shrug> I know folks are reading them, and I know they go to my webpage.
Occasionally, I get a two or three page private feedback e-mail that makes my
day, but that is rare, too. I have 150000 combined hits from the old and new
pages without having joined any webrings, links or placed ads. Someone is
reading my stuff, but they aren't signing my guestbook either. I have every
continent and subcontinent in the world represented on my hit counter, but
there are not that many folks in my guestbook.
That's okay, because I know I am pretty decent writer and I enjoy writing for
myself. If someone else likes it, that's even better, but it's not the end-all.
Write to make yourself feel better, not to have others make you feel better.
You should enjoy this for its own sake.It is fun after all.
Jungle Kitty
>
> jki...@accesscom.com (Jungle Kitty) wrote in
> <38F6CD8C...@accesscom.com>:
> >Can you send email? Send it to asc...@earthlink.net. That's how many
> >people (including myself) posted before ASCEML went to OneList and,
> >AFAIK, that addy is still in effect.
>
> E-mail directly to *the poster*, not to the NG.
> Gamin
That *is* a poster. It goes to a human being (Dina) who then posts it to
the NG.
Gamin Davis
Gamin Davis
<8d709f$fvu$1...@bugstomper.ihug.com.au>:
>only". It's much better than checking Deja (so this leads me to assume
>you can check www sites). The messages can be sorted by order posted or
>by thread in case you want to follow a particular topic. Much easier to
>follow than Deja anyday. You can post to the list from the website as
>well, and respond to other people's posts there.
As far as I know, I'm doing all that on Deja--it allows you to save
threads, etc. And I can post to the list--bot *only* in response to
someone else's post. At any rate, I have several NGs accessed through Deja
and ASCEM is the only one causing problems, so it's not really worth trying
to get it from another site. I don't want to post new messages there
*that* badly.
Thanks anyway.
Gamin
Gamin Davis
<20000414143030...@ng-fy1.aol.com>:
>unreliable way to help our egos. We can't depend on anyone outside
>ourselves to do that. I told you that I would give detailed feedback on
>a story, and you told me it was old and sorta set as it was. I thought
>it best to wait for a fresh one. Was I wrong and I should've psoted on
>the zine story? If so, I will.
I already responded to this by E-mail (I really am going to have to
start checking the NG first so I don't have to duplicate my responses), but
here are the highlights:
In short, yes, go ahead. I was unclear about that in my original
response, apparently.
>ASC takes my tales and swallows them without a ripple lately.I used to
>get 20-30 feedbacks on any story. The minimum was 10. Now, I am lucky if
>I get two.
><shrug> I know folks are reading them, and I know they go to my webpage.
As I said in my E-mail, I feedback yours when I manage to read them,
especially the "Gol" series, and voted for the latter in the ASC Awards. I
think my server is eating them. I did read "Kumi" but felt like I was
missing too much information to enjoy it as well as I could have (it's been
too long since the last installment I read, apparently). And I missed
Spock.
>Occasionally, I get a two or three page private feedback e-mail that
>makes my day, but that is rare, too. I have 150000 combined hits from
>the old and new pages without having joined any webrings, links or
>placed ads. Someone is reading my stuff, but they aren't signing my
>guestbook either. I have every continent and subcontinent in the world
>represented on my hit counter, but there are not that many folks in my
>guestbook.
Since my stories are in zines that are still in print, posting them on
a website isn't really an option for me.
>That's okay, because I know I am pretty decent writer and I enjoy
>writing for myself. If someone else likes it, that's even better, but
>it's not the end-all.
Agreed, minor characterization differences aside. I do write for
myself--but because I want to grow and improve and do something
professional eventually, and because I want to get things perfected before
they go into my zines, I also want *feedback*.
Gamin
gamin...@my-deja.com
Raku said:
> Gamin, how about the benefit you're offering to readers who can't or
won't send
My point was, the same is true for zines--so if posting stuff here
isn't going to get me any more (or more frequent) reaction than I get
with zines, then where's the advantage *for me* in posting? Someone
once told me that the advantage of posting stuff on NGs vs. zines was
the "instant feedback", and that's what I was after. Right now, as I
tried to explain, I'm in selfish mode--how am I supposed to *know* if
someone enjoyed my story if they don't *tell* me? Yes, under other
conditions, I could just think that yeah, this is true and I just have
some really shy people reading my stories, but right now I have an
emotional need for feedback.
> lives (go check the Trilly threads for REAL good examples of late).
Been there, read those. Had to quit because all the discussion of
suicide was frankly making me more depressed than I already am. (I
note, also, that there was some discussion of the fact that the
best "tribute" that could be given to her was for people to feedback
more regularly.)
>I'd say that pro feedback is
> less direct, and less frequent, and often more brutal than what we
see here. I
> think about pro writing also, but I know that if I go that way, I'll
pretty
> much have to kiss good bye the direct support I get in NG's.
The same is pretty much true with zines (although it's been my
experience that people don't bother to take the trouble to write you
personally unless they have something *good* to say, and I'm sure
that's true of pro novels, as well).
Gamin
gamin...@my-deja.com
bish...@aol.com (Bishclone) wrote:
> >he returns the favour. But this is of course intellectual inbreeding
of
> >the highest order.
Sure, if you're not among those being excluded.
> Yeah. But, oh, I have yet to meet somewhere who is totally secure in
their
> writings... Most are insecure, racked by 'Oh God, they're going to
hate it'
> mutterings...and pacing a hole into the carpet around their apple
mac. I've
> done it myself, you're offering yourself up to the big guys and
someone asks a
> question and you sit there and you beat your head against your mouse
and wonder
> 'why oh why didn't I see that' and, eventually you over-react...okay,
maybe
> that's just my humble experience.
Hoo boy, do I ever resemble that description. I do not normally,
however, get hysterical.
> But as a reader and feedbacker, I find...oh, dear...that if I want to
ask a
> question, or query something then I mail them privately - and
anything nice
> that I have to say, or positive, I won't post publicly - out, of,
well, respect
> of the author.
That's the way I was told to do it, and I do--now (took a while
for it to sink in). I don't even care, as long as I get *some* comment
and it's not total flames.
gamin...@my-deja.com
rabbl...@aol.com (Rabble Rouser) wrote:
> And this is precisely what makes me cringe ab. the public nature of
the voting
> for the ASC awards. I was almost afraid to vote at all for fear
people would
> take note of who and what I voted for and that there might be hard
feelings
> bec. of that. The above is one of the best arguments I can make for
going to
> an anonymous comment's/counting list.
In order for anything to change, the authors' names would have to
be hidden or kept secret. As far as you hurting my feelings, at the
moment, I have no reason to feel you're part of a "clique" only voting
for certain stories, so I'm not offended. It gets cliquish enough
around here unavoidably, with everybody having their own favorite
series and many people only reading, writing or voting for things in
that series, so we don't really need any added divisions, IMO.
gamin...@my-deja.com
rabbl...@aol.com (Rabble Rouser) wrote:
> Ah Gamin...she followed that with an emoticon that indicates she was
winking at
> you--and perhaps gently chiding you for so cavalierly dismissing
T'Rhys stories
> in the way you did. In fact she made it clear in the follow up post
that she
> does very much like non-slash piece.
I wasn't "dismissing" anybody's stories. I saw the emoticon, but
my focus was on the fact that she said she "doesn't read TOS (or my
stories) because she doesn't like non-slash". (Eh, I think I just
misquoted her, but I do actually know what she said...) Sorry, but I
am in a rotten, depressed-type mood, and I may appear to be taking
things more personally than I either am or should be. *S-I-G-H*
> I don't write slash either--period. Unlike you I enjoy reading it ,
but my
> muse just doesn't seem to work that way. Nevertheless when I used to
post to
> ASCEM I got more feedback for my decidedly non-slash non-explicit
stories there
> than on ASC. It's easier to feedback on ASCEM via the email feed and
it has a
> large and enthusiastic audience for TOS.
Yeah, well, I'm glad it's so easy for *them*; for *me* it's
impossible. My E-mail account will not handle a mailing list and my
newsreader will not let me post to ASCEM--in any way, shape or form.
Besides, I really think my ideal audience is probably reading *this*
NG, since I don't write either adult or slash TOS. (BTW, I have
occasionally read K/S slash if it's not too explicit.)
Several authors I don't want to bring
> into this conversation ag. their will have noted the difference in
feedback to
> their TOS stories bet. the NGs. Jat's Kaddish for instance has
gotten far
> more, and far more detailed, feedback there than here.
Yeah, well, I read it here, and I *did* give her as detailed a
message of feedback as I could.
> I'm sorry if a lack of feedback makes you feel that posting here is
more
> trouble than it's worth. I don't know an author here who feels they
get
> enough<g> Occupational hazard. I certainly try hard not to take it
personally.
> I don't want to beg--it's not becoming behavior.
No, I'm not about to, either. It's probably just some kind of
phase I'm going through, but for me, right now, it's just one more
negative on top of a RL situation with what is verging on more
negatives than I can handle. :^(
gamin...@my-deja.com
jki...@accesscom.com wrote:
> That *is* a poster. It goes to a human being (Dina) who then posts it
to
> the NG.
Um, no--I don't mean E-mailing to the NG's E-mail addy. I mean
responding *directly* to the *individual person's* E-mail address--this
does *not* appear on the NG, it goes to the author of the message I'm
responding to. That's the *only* way I can respond to anybody on ASCEM
at all from my newsreader. It doesn't accept the Earthlink E-mail
address at all--I just keep getting "recipient must be specified" error
messages. The only time anything has ever gone through from my
newsreader to ASCEM has been through the trekfiction.net address, which
automatically comes up in reply mode any time I try to respond. I can't
access the list through my E-mail account, and Deja won't let me do
anything but answer other people's posts, so there's no way I could
post stories to that NG.
Gamin
E-mail to arkiet...@usa.net