Kirk: never a 23rd Century Boy Scout?
Laura Goodwin
David Marcus, "Kirk has been many things but he was NEVER a Boy Scout!"
OK, so we have Boy Scouts in the 23rd century. But Kirk ~never was
one~!? Is she right? Just cos CM says so doesn't make it true, does
it? It doesn't sound right to me.
Refer: Boy Scout oath, law and motto -
http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoathlaw.html
Look at this: modern day Boy Scouts expected to be reverent, among
other things. Specifically:
<< A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient,
Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. >>
Kirk *IS* a friggin' Boy Scout. He actually lives this way. OK, except
for the reverent part; he's a bit shaky on that point. Kirk himself
doesn't apparently ever pray to God when he's in a tough spot - au
contrare, he is highly suspicious of any creature claiming to be a God,
or who exercises Godlike powers, which tells me he's a skeptic. Yet
when Saavik asks Admiral Kirk for suggestions immediately after
attempting the Kobarashi Maru, Kirk suggests prayer, since the Klingons
don't take prisoners. What is that? Does he really think _a Vulcan_ of
all people should resort to prayer, or did something in his background
plant the idea that prayer is what anyone resorts to when all else has
failed (or when all seems lost)? Why pay lip service to something he
wouldn't do himself... except maybe _to fulfill a vow_.
OK, maybe he isn't always clean either, but he does always at least
clean up afterward. :) It's hard to stay clean when you are CAMPING.
He camps, and takes Vulcans camping too! There you go: more flagrant
attempted Terranization of Vulcans! The man's incorrigible.
"Hey Spock, here's something fun to do: let's go camping, and sit
around a fire and sing old Terran folk songs n stuff!"
I know one thing: it probably wasn't Spock's idea!
Where did Kirk learn to like things like that... on the FARM? I don't
think so! I say Kirk *was* a Boy Scout (probably an Eagle Scout) and
never outgrew it! He probably won so many merit badges he had to start
tacking them on the back of his sash cos the front was full. He
competed with other scouts to collect the most badges. He probably was
in 4-H club too, damn it. Where did he learn how to make a cannon out
of natural minerals and a hollow log? ON THE FARM? I don't think so!
What you learn on a farm is how to work hard at doing the same routine
over and over... you don't learn all kinds of obscure, creative survival
skills collecting eggs and driving the tractor, OK?
Laura Goodwin
Mark Stanley
>
> This is really bugging me: In ST2 "Wrath of Khan", Carol Marcus says to
> David Marcus, "Kirk has been many things but he was NEVER a Boy Scout!"
>
> OK, so we have Boy Scouts in the 23rd century. But Kirk ~never was
> one~!? Is she right? Just cos CM says so doesn't make it true, does
> it? It doesn't sound right to me.
>
Well, if the K/Sers are right, he would be kicked out of the Boy Scouts
in *this* century, but maybe they'll get enlightened by the 23rd.
Mark
--
"It's more fun than a Cardassian tractor-pull!" -- segue from The Warp
Zone on KFH radio.
~~~
mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca
Gamin Davis
<3A874EA1...@altavista.net>:
>Kirk *IS* a friggin' Boy Scout. He actually lives this way. OK, except
>for the reverent part; he's a bit shaky on that point. Kirk himself
>doesn't apparently ever pray to God when he's in a tough spot - au
>contrare, he is highly suspicious of any creature claiming to be a God,
>or who exercises Godlike powers, which tells me he's a skeptic. Yet
I give you a line from "Who Mourns For Adonais?"--Kirk to Apollo re:
Greek gods and worshipping him as Kirk's ancestors did: "We find THE ONE
quite sufficient." Proof enough for me that Kirk at least acknowledges the
existence of a God, whether he actually prays or worships regularly or not.
>OK, maybe he isn't always clean either, but he does always at least
>clean up afterward. :) It's hard to stay clean when you are CAMPING.
>He camps, and takes Vulcans camping too! There you go: more flagrant
>attempted Terranization of Vulcans! The man's incorrigible.
<BG> Some Vulcans need Terranization. Especially if they're already
half-Human. <BG>
>"Hey Spock, here's something fun to do: let's go camping, and sit
>around a fire and sing old Terran folk songs n stuff!"
>I know one thing: it probably wasn't Spock's idea!
LOL--as far as I can tell, it hardly ever is, except in some fan-fic.
>Where did Kirk learn to like things like that... on the FARM? I don't
>think so! I say Kirk *was* a Boy Scout (probably an Eagle Scout) and
>never outgrew it! He probably won so many merit badges he had to start
>tacking them on the back of his sash cos the front was full. He
>competed with other scouts to collect the most badges. He probably was
>in 4-H club too, damn it. Where did he learn how to make a cannon out
>of natural minerals and a hollow log? ON THE FARM? I don't think so!
>What you learn on a farm is how to work hard at doing the same routine
>over and over... you don't learn all kinds of obscure, creative survival
>skills collecting eggs and driving the tractor, OK?
Well, his father could have taken him camping a few times, but yeah, I
can believe he might well have been a Boy Scout. (I love this post,
Laura.)
Gamin, former Girl Scout and Owner of 14 Merit Badges
P.S. Yes, I sold cookies, too.
Tom Del Rosso
news:3A874EA1...@altavista.net...
>
> doesn't apparently ever pray to God when he's in a tough spot - au
> contrare, he is highly suspicious of any creature claiming to be a
God,
> or who exercises Godlike powers, which tells me he's a skeptic.
"We find the one [god] quite sufficient."
He's even a Christian according to Bread and Circuses. "Only now" is
the gospel coming to this planet.
Looks like he's a complete Boy Scout. :)
Laura Goodwin
> Looks like he's a complete Boy Scout. :)
Looks that way to me.
Deb Drake
>
> Laura Goodwin wrote:
> >
> > This is really bugging me: In ST2 "Wrath of Khan", Carol Marcus says to
> > David Marcus, "Kirk has been many things but he was NEVER a Boy Scout!"
> >
> > OK, so we have Boy Scouts in the 23rd century. But Kirk ~never was
> > one~!? Is she right? Just cos CM says so doesn't make it true, does
> > it? It doesn't sound right to me.
> >
>
> Well, if the K/Sers are right, he would be kicked out of the Boy Scouts
> in *this* century, but maybe they'll get enlightened by the 23rd.
>
> Mark
Gee, I had the exact same thought.... :-)
Deb
Laura Goodwin
> Gamin, former Girl Scout and Owner of 14 Merit Badges
> P.S. Yes, I sold cookies, too.
:::high five:::
Gamin Davis
Back at you. <slaps your hand in mid-air>
Gamin
Laura Goodwin
child, to stay out of her life completely, then fails to tell the son
that he has such a distinguished father. I can't imagine Kirk doing
anything, in public or private, that would have earned him such
contemptible treatment. I hate her. I can understand why Kirk would
agree to stay away from her! She probably just used him to get
pregnant. She never loved him.
Poor Kirk probably was smitten by her looks and just swooned dizzily
right into that Venus Flytrap. A real femme fatale: Because of her
silly device both David Marcus (Jim's son) and Spock (Jim's best friend)
die.
Kirk stayed away out of respect for her wishes. He respected her
feelings and her rights, but she has no respect for his rights or her
son's. That psycho raised Kirk's son and discovered the secret of
creating life out of lifelessness? Ugh. One more reason I hate the ST
movies. Preposterous! I can't believe somebody got paid to write that
crap.
When Carol Marcus declared that Kirk was no Boy Scout, it was proof
positive that she never knew him at all. She has no insight into his
character whatsoever, which is probably really why they didn't get
along! Don't blame Jim: I'm sure he gave it his best, like he always
does. We know him better than CM does: we've seen him in all kinds of
circumstances, and he's a champ.
On the other hand, she (IMHO) is a bitch, straight up!
Laura Goodwin
Laura Goodwin
had another guy besides him. Maybe Kirk found out about the other guy
and that's what broke them up. Maybe when she turns up pregnant he was
still angry and reluctant to believe that it was his kid. Maybe there
was a paternity suit where the other guy was being sued for child
support, because maybe he had more money than Kirk. When the boy's true
parentage was revealed at last, it wasn't the guy Carol preferred.
Kirk's long gone. He *maybe years later* gets this terse letter from
Carol explaining the situation. Kirk would *volunteer* child support
and ask to meet the boy: he'd want to set up a visitation schedule.
Carol has a better idea. She tells Kirk she'll forget about collecting
child support if he'll just agree to stay as gone as he has been. Kirk
naturally feels very insulted by this, but he's got a lot on his plate,
so he agrees to let her go on living her own life her own god-damned
way. He has never met the child, so it's not like he feels a bond.
Besides, why submit to the humiliation of a paternity test only to find
out there may have been a third guy involved!? Let the past stay dead,
that would be Kirk's attitude. He would not be strongly motivated to
stir up painful old feelings, especially if he's being asked not to.
Easier for everybody that way.
But he was shocked to learn that David didn't know who his father was.
Good Lord, it's not like there is any reason to be ashamed of Kirk is
it!? What a ballbreaker that Carol Marcus is! Bitch. I hate her.
Carol Marcus tells the boy that Kirk's no boy scout because she's
engaged in an active campaign to prejudice the boy against his sire.
Yes, I think she is ~that evil~.
Laura Goodwin
annz
>
>How's this for an idea - maybe Kirk was really in love with her, but she
>had another guy besides him. Maybe Kirk found out about the other guy
>and that's what broke them up. Maybe when she turns up pregnant he was
>still angry and reluctant to believe that it was his kid. Maybe there
>was a paternity suit where the other guy was being sued for child
>support, because maybe he had more money than Kirk. When the boy's true
>parentage was revealed at last, it wasn't the guy Carol preferred.
>
I have my own take on the Kirk/Marcus relationship *and* Kirk's relationship
with his son. While TWOK makes it *clear* that David didn't know Kirk was his
father, he obviously knew who he was *and* knew enough about him to have had
*some* contact with him. Also, Kirk's reaction indicated, to me at least, that
David was more than just a distant memory of a child he had never met or known.
So my theory is that, while Kirk has "stayed away" for a long time, that at some
point in David's life, they *did* meet -- with the end result that Carol sent
him away and made him promise never to return.
To deal with all of this, I wrote a story called, naturally, "Boy Scout," which
takes place immediately before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise and involves
his attempt to get to know his son in hopes of becoming a real presence in his
life.
If anyone is interested in this, you'll find the story on the Orion Press Web
site at: http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/index.html
Click on the online fiction archive and then on the Pre-TOS era to find the
story.
--
Ann
"To write is human; to edit divine." -- Stephen King, "Oh Writing"
Rabble Rouser
>which
>takes place immediately before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise and
>involves
>his attempt to get to know his son in hopes of becoming a real presence in
>his
>life.
I read this one--I liked it--a lot. I enjoyed the picture of Kirk as a father,
your portrait of Carol, and what Kirk does at the end.
I liked some of your other stories too--I'm glad you're still around. Maybe
we'll get some more from you<g>
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Story Page
http://www.geocities.com/rabble_rouser_st/
The test of courage comes when we are in the minority.
The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority.
~Ralph W. Sockman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Helsos
>To deal with all of this, I wrote a story called, naturally, "Boy Scout,"
>which
>takes place immediately before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise and
>involves
>his attempt to get to know his son in hopes of becoming a real presence in
>his
>life.
>
>If anyone is interested in this, you'll find the story on the Orion Press Web
>site at: http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/index.html
>
>Click on the online fiction archive and then on the Pre-TOS era to find the
>story.
>
>--
>
>Ann
And an excellent story it is! I recommend any one interested in the Kirk/Marcus
early years should read this story.
Hi Ann, nice to hear from you..
:::waving:: Helen
Laura Goodwin
> To deal with all of this, I wrote a story called, naturally, "Boy Scout," which
> takes place immediately before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise and involves
> his attempt to get to know his son in hopes of becoming a real presence in his
> life.
>
> If anyone is interested in this, you'll find the story on the Orion Press Web
> site at: http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/index.html
Cool! Thanks for the pointer! :)
Laura Goodwin
annz
You're welcome, Laura. Let me know what you think after you've read it.
annz
says...
>
>>To deal with all of this, I wrote a story called, naturally, "Boy Scout,"
>>which
>>takes place immediately before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise and
>>involves
>>his attempt to get to know his son in hopes of becoming a real presence in
>>his
>>life.
>
>I read this one--I liked it--a lot. I enjoyed the picture of Kirk as a father,
>your portrait of Carol, and what Kirk does at the end.
>
>I liked some of your other stories too--I'm glad you're still around. Maybe
>we'll get some more from you<g>
>
Thanks for the compliments. I'm working on a couple of stories that, if I ever
finish them, are planned to be simultaneously published on the Orion Press Web
page and in zine format. I also have several other stories on the
above-mentioned Web site and one, "Fire in the Lake," a Mirror Universe story,
on my Tantalus Web site, www.zebra.net/~eannz/tantalus (I think that's the whole
url <g).
annz
says...
Hi, Helen,
Thanks for the kudus. Are you going to make Shore Leave this year?
Gamin Davis
>That Carol Marcus: What an Ice Queen. Tells Kirk, the father of her
>child, to stay out of her life completely, then fails to tell the son
>that he has such a distinguished father. I can't imagine Kirk doing
>anything, in public or private, that would have earned him such
>contemptible treatment. I hate her. I can understand why Kirk would
>agree to stay away from her! She probably just used him to get
>pregnant. She never loved him.
OMG, we're on the same wavelength again...I was wondering if anybody
else got this impression of CM, because I have never liked her from the
first time I saw STII. I almost had to wonder what the heck Kirk ever saw
in her.
>Poor Kirk probably was smitten by her looks and just swooned dizzily
>right into that Venus Flytrap. A real femme fatale: Because of her
>silly device both David Marcus (Jim's son) and Spock (Jim's best friend)
>die.
Maybe that's why we hate her? Could be part of it, even though we now
know Spock came back. David didn't...but I didn't really have time to
build up a lot of empathy with him, anyway.
>Kirk stayed away out of respect for her wishes. He respected her
>feelings and her rights, but she has no respect for his rights or her
>son's. That psycho raised Kirk's son and discovered the secret of
>creating life out of lifelessness? Ugh. One more reason I hate the ST
>movies. Preposterous! I can't believe somebody got paid to write that
>crap.
Look at the way David was when Kirk first saw him--it was apparent that
she had been feeding him a lot of propoganda about his father. And he had
to find *that* out the hard way...I have to wonder if she cared anything
for her son, either. That had to be traumatic, the way he found out. (I
like some of the movies, but this isn't one of them.)
>When Carol Marcus declared that Kirk was no Boy Scout, it was proof
>positive that she never knew him at all. She has no insight into his
>character whatsoever, which is probably really why they didn't get
>along! Don't blame Jim: I'm sure he gave it his best, like he always
>does. We know him better than CM does: we've seen him in all kinds of
>circumstances, and he's a champ.
>On the other hand, she (IMHO) is a bitch, straight up!
Again, great minds think alike...when you talked about Kirk's various
women, I wondered if I would see "bitch" by *her* name <g>. That was my
first impression, too, and though I've watched STII repeatedly, I've never
discovered anything I missed to make me think of anything that could have
justified her actions--not to the extent that she carried them. Yet Kirk
seems to recognize David, or at least have heard of him by name--I suppose
she thinks she was very generous telling Kirk *that* much.
Gamin
Gamin Davis
>How's this for an idea - maybe Kirk was really in love with her, but she
>had another guy besides him. Maybe Kirk found out about the other guy
>and that's what broke them up. Maybe when she turns up pregnant he was
>still angry and reluctant to believe that it was his kid. Maybe there
>was a paternity suit where the other guy was being sued for child
>support, because maybe he had more money than Kirk. When the boy's true
>parentage was revealed at last, it wasn't the guy Carol preferred.
Kind of soap-opera-ish, but who knows? Their relationship seems just
weird enough that it might be true. No canon to go on with this one.
Gamin
Gamin Davis
>I have my own take on the Kirk/Marcus relationship *and* Kirk's
>relationship with his son. While TWOK makes it *clear* that David didn't
>know Kirk was his father, he obviously knew who he was *and* knew enough
>about him to have had *some* contact with him. Also, Kirk's reaction
>indicated, to me at least, that David was more than just a distant
>memory of a child he had never met or known.
Hmm, I saw no evidence to indicate he's had any more "contact" with
David than what CM has chosen to tell him--which might be David's name and
his birthday, *period*. Not sure what you base this idea on as I saw no
such indications. I think that's *exactly* what David was to him--a memory
of a child that he may or *may not* have seen since birth--I rather think
Carol kept him away from before the birth onward--no pictures, no letters,
no nothing, except what little she herself chose to tell him--otherwise,
David would have acted more like he knew Kirk when they met; instead, he
acted like Kirk was just some celebrity he'd seen on the news. And Kirk
knew David's name, but apparently didn't have enough information to ever
guess that the "two Dr. Marcuses" might be mother and son. (Once again,
two people look at the same canonical source and see two completely
different things.)
Gamin
Laura Goodwin
> ... (Once again,
> two people look at the same canonical source and see two completely
> different things.)
I know it can spoil your enjoyment to analyze art too much, but it
really is necessary sometimes. I had to analyze Kirk's activities with
female characters in TOS to fully understand both why I think K/S is
plausible, and why it angers me when people talk about him like he was
getting laid every episode, as if Star Trek was nothing but *The Kirk
Gets Laid Show*.
Kirk gets laid by all the girls - in people's dreams. There are a lot
of people who seem strongly motivated to see him that way, but that
tells you more about them than it does about the show. Our own
imaginations are hard at work, filling in the blanks every day: not just
with ST characters, but (really think about this) with the real people
we know too.
Look at what fans do with Star Trek, and understand that it means we are
being human, the way we are with everything else. If that thought
doesn't scare you, I don't know what will.
It's the same thing that has turned Christian against Christian, and
Christians against everybody else for who knows how long. Two people
can look at the very same thing, and be stubbornly passionate about
seeing it differently - and can both be wrong, and can both be right,
and this insanity never stops, even bloodshed doesn't stop it.
Be wary of feeling too sure of yourselves, all of you.
Laura Goodwin
Rob Morris
Mainline, I don't see Carol as clutching. Even in my very dark Ancient
Destroyer AU, where she did get pregnant on purpose, she is not a crazed
monster. Like any of us, she has her issues, and makes her mistakes. In
the mainline universes, those adhering more closely to canon, I feel her
mistake in not letting David know Jim may have proven deadly. David
intuitively used one of Jim's standbys--bending the rules--in creating
Genesis. Without Jim's presence while David grew up, there was no one to
say--'You may bend the rules with cunning; You may not break the laws;
Both those they write down, and those that get you killed. Basically,
you can fly at a star to trap an enemy, but don't fly into its core.'
Carol had many flaws, and made many mistakes. But even in a dark view,
to see her as other than a flawed being like the rest of us is to say
that Jim almost chose very stupidly, and I think he knew who and what he
was going into. Here's a thought, from one who's usually a Carol-basher
nonpareil : Jim made a huge mistake, vis-a-vis the future of The UFP, by
seeking to retake Enterprise during the V'Gr incident. Had he stayed on,
and kept to the Admiralty, he might well have been the one to replace
Nogura, and maybe Starfleet in the 24th Century wouldn't have become the
punching bag it is often shown as. Moreover, the dreaded desk job might
have loosened Carol's lips to David on his parentage.
No obligation to click : Starting Over and other Short Stories :
http://www.southroad.com/brightfame/
Ancient Destroyer :
http://www.telepath.com/kkuhlman/
Rabble Rouser
>seeking to retake Enterprise during the V'Gr incident. Had he stayed on,
>and kept to the Admiralty, he might well have been the one to replace
>Nogura, and maybe Starfleet in the 24th Century wouldn't have become the
>punching bag it is often shown as. Moreover, the dreaded desk job might
>have loosened Carol's lips to David on his parentage.
I agree with much of what you've said here ab. Carol Marcus. I also tend to
agree with your point ab. David. If Kirk had been part of David's life, he
might have been better guided on some of the pitfalls of Kirkian character
traits--and been a bit better at hand to hand combat. And that could have saved
his life. A rather sad irony that.
In fact, my biggest beef ag. Carol is not what she did to Kirk, but what she
did to David. I grew up fatherless due to divorce so this is BIG issue for me.
Unless a father is abusive, I think keeping him out of a kid's life is a huge
mistake. The urge to be protective of a child however, even overprotective, is
a very human and understandable flaw and Ann Zewen makes me feel understanding
and sympathy for Carol in her story.
But Kirk in the admiralty? I think people tend to connect for want of a better
word "worthiness" and status. People want to make Uhura and Chekov captains
for instance because they feel they deserve it even though I think there is
plenty of canon evidence that both are unsuited for command of a starship.
Similarly, given Kirk's record of accomplishment it would seem he "deserves" to
be an admiral.
Nevertheless, I think to quote Spock that to plug Kirk into the admiralty is a
"waste of material" There are different kinds of leadership suited to
different roles. It's easy to see Uhura in a professorial role--it's far
harder for me to see her as commanding a military vessel. Similarly, I think
Kirk is a Patton, a field officer and tactician--not an Eisenhower. I think
he'd be bored and extremely unhappy riding a desk and those who knew him best
(Spock and McCoy) agree.
Although I do agree given remarks by Picard and Janeway (probably because of
how Braga & Co saw TOS) that a lot of Kirk's qualities seem to be very
underappreciated in the TNG era--and I think it hurts Starfleet. Its still a
very big and very dangerous galaxy out there. You still need daring
risk-takers on starships--not people with the souls of bureaucrats.
One other thing. I think if Kirk hadn't taken command away from Decker, V'ger
would have fried Earth--and that I don't think would have been a very good
development for the UFP.
annz
news:90482E3F6arki...@Trialnews.peoplepc.com...
More David's comments than Kirk's actions. David knew his mother once "hung
around with" his mother. He could only have learned that through either
observation or her telling him. If she truly wanted Kirk out of David's life
and the situation had been thus since David's birth, then it was unlikely
she would have mentioned spending time with him. And where would David get
the "Boy Scout" idea anyway? To me, it seemed obvious that David had
encountered Kirk at some point in his life, but a *long* time ago, when he
was so young that his memories would be somewhat sketchy and skewed. You're
welcome to your interpretation, but that is mine. Also, Kirk seemed
regretful that he had *not* been a part of David's life, and yet he told
Carol he had done as *she* wished and stayed away. He *never* said her
wishes came at the time of David's birth, however, and her comment that Kirk
wasn't going to be a part of David's life *also* didn't refer to such
knowledge being there are his *birth*.
For those who haven't read the story, I'll tell you only that it involves
Kirk trying to establish a relationship with David when he's a small boy,
before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise, and how -- as the result of a
set of circumstances -- she decides to send Kirk packing and *why* he
agrees. This doesn't really give anything away that we don't already know
from the movie -- other than the setup.
Everyone is welcome to their own interpretation of the events, but this is
mine. The only things we know for sure are that David is Kirk's son, David
doesn't *know* he's Kirk's son, they haven't had contact for many years
(whether they *ever* had *any* contact is debatable) at Carol's request,
McCoy knows about Carol and Spock *doesn't* know David is Kirk's son. David
has a negative viewpoint of both Kirk and Starfleet, but Carol contradicts
it sufficiently to make *me* think that much of David's viewpoint is his
*own* and *not* something spoon-fed him by her.
Other than that, I'd be happy to discuss the choices I made in this story
with anyone who wishes to discuss them -- though perhaps *off* the newsgroup
would be best. Suffice it to say that *my* view of Carol is a *bit* more
sympathetic than some here have, although I *do* blame her for the
separation of her son and his father. I disagree with her decision, but I
understand it. And *that* is Kirk's position, too. And he goes along with it
*not* for her sake, but for David's. I'll happily discuss that point, as
well, off the newsgroup with anyone who wishes.
--
Ann
"To write is human; to edit divine." _ Stephen King, "On Writing."
Rob Morris
ship altogether, just that his influence on the top could have been
enormously positive for later generations, as evidenced in RR's classic
'Captain For A New Age' and my CFANA-inspired 'The Grave Concern' as
well as JK's powerful 'Siege Perilous'. But there's no disputing---he
would have been miserable behind a desk.
There's another factor besides Jim in all this : Carol denied David
knowing Jim's whole family. An uncle, an aunt, a grandmother, and as
many as three cousins, depending on whether PK's brothers were on Deneva
during 'O:A'. Then there's the ranch-owning Uncle in the Northwest.
Hell, there might even have been members of Carol's own family
she had to avoid because they disagreed with her choice to keep David in
the dark. Part of me has to see David's childhood as almost a fugitive
one, though not in a legal status kind of way. Certainly Carol kept
tight track of who he was talking to. Again, none of these things make
her evil, just a person who desired a certain outcome and picked up on
the wrong cues as to how to achieve it.
Carol certainly has the personality of an ST guest character. Like
Gill, who thought he could tame Fascism, or like Lester, who took her
own unfitness for command and made it a gender issue, Carol's actions
often befuddle us. She wanted Jim to either give up Starfleet or take a
desk job as a condition of being with her. Even if this were not Jim we
were talking about, that sets the post fairly high.
"Were We Together? Were We Going To Be?"
probably remains the core statement about who she is, equal parts
beauty, brilliance and blindness.
IMHO, of course. :)
Rabble Rouser
>'Captain For A New Age'
Awww "classic?" you sure know how to flatter a girl <bats eyes>
>Carol denied David
>knowing Jim's whole family. An uncle, an aunt, a grandmother, and as
>many as three cousins, depending on whether PK's brothers were on Deneva
>during 'O:A'. Then there's the ranch-owning Uncle in the Northwest.
>Hell, there might even have been members of Carol's own family
>she had to avoid because they disagreed with her choice to keep David in
>the dark. Part of me has to see David's childhood as almost a fugitive
>one, though not in a legal status kind of way. Certainly Carol kept
>tight track of who he was talking to.
This is a *good* point and one I never thought of. Although didn't the
novelization have a "Mr. Marcus" So it's not that David grew up w/o knowing
who his father is but that he thought it was someone other than Kirk? I seem
to remember something like that in the McIntrye novelization--not that we have
to accept that.
Btw--I understand that they were originally going to put his old flame Jan
Wallace in the Marcus role--and she certainly was married.
That of course would give a plausible reason for asking Kirk to stay away. She
wasn't raising him as a single mother--he already had a "father" and extended
family and letting David know the truth would be far too disruptive.
Again, none of these things make
>her evil, just a person who desired a certain outcome and picked up on
>the wrong cues as to how to achieve it.
True enough. I don't read her as a "bitch" or a monster.
Carol's actions
>often befuddle us. She wanted Jim to either give up Starfleet or take a
>desk job as a condition of being with her. Even if this were not Jim we
>were talking about, that sets the post fairly high.
Impossibly high--can you really be happy with someone who asks you to erase a
part of your core identiy? It would be like asking Stephen King to stop
writing or Speilberg to stop making movies.
It still makes you wonder though--if you're not willing to commit to a man,
knowing who he is, what's important to him and that you can't accept it--why
have his child? Are we really supposed to believe the scientist and geneticist
had an "accident" Or was she gambling it would keep Kirk grounded?