The Future of ASC
Philippe de la Matraque
discussed more by Rocky and I.
Should ASC move on from the newsgroup? Newsgroups were around when the
internet was all text only run on Unix servers. The internet is far wider
now and social media is at the top of popularity now. Email, though, has
not died and may never do so.
So if we were to leave the newsgroup and move to something more
contemporary, where and how would we do it? Let's brainstorm:
Easy: YahooGroup. Move all the posting there. Trekiverse can stay.
Stories can easily be posted. People can chose to receive individual posts
or daily digests or just special notices if they don't even feel like
lurking much.
Facebook: Hmmm...... There are groups there, but I don't spend much time in
them even when I'm logged into Facebook. I might, if I know ASC was
there.... Worth a thought. But the posting of stories? Is there a good way
to do that in Facebook? Would we need worry about copyright etc?
TrekSpace: Well, it is Trek-themed. It's a social media site sort of like
Facebook. Friend people, post your status, etc. There are 2 small
fanfiction groups there already. Maybe we could blow the pants off them?
Facebook is the big name though. Might have the biggest potential draw of
people.
Trekiverse: Setup a forum or BBS system on Trekiverse for people to post
comments and stories. Potential but users would have to remember to
participate. Open the web site, sign in. I'm amazed how hard that is for
me even. Facebook I hit more often. Email is always open.
Well those are my thoughts thus far. Please join in.
Gabrielle aka Philippe
Philippe de la Matraque
far I've set it to approve members but I'll approve just about anyone and
then kick out any spammers. I've said in the first post that anything
posted there should also be posted here. I've also said that I'll forward
it here for anyone who simply can't post to a newsgroup.
I just want to see if it will be viable there or more viable than here. If
it is and we decide to go this way, I'll happily hand it over to someone
else in VSO.
If anyone wants an invite, let me know with your email address, otherwise
the group should show up in the directory eventually.
PS I know there's an ASC-L but presently it's only set to show stories
posted to the newsgroup.
Gabrielle aka Philippe.
"Philippe de la Matraque" <pdelam...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9pOdnc1yrPapX97W...@earthlink.com...
Stephen aka Old Man ASC
<pdelam...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I've posed a question since the Awards dilemma came up and has been
>discussed more by Rocky and I.
>
>Should ASC move on from the newsgroup? Newsgroups were around when the
>internet was all text only run on Unix servers. The internet is far wider
>now and social media is at the top of popularity now. Email, though, has
>not died and may never do so.
>
>So if we were to leave the newsgroup and move to something more
>contemporary, where and how would we do it? Let's brainstorm:
>
>Easy: YahooGroup. Move all the posting there. Trekiverse can stay.
>Stories can easily be posted. People can chose to receive individual posts
>or daily digests or just special notices if they don't even feel like
>lurking much.
If ASC had been moderated, I probably would have set up this already, with
a feed to the newsgroup like ASCEM(L) is set up. ASCEM, however, is
grandfathered in to the rules on yahoogroups re: forwarding posts.
>Facebook: Hmmm...... There are groups there, but I don't spend much time in
>them even when I'm logged into Facebook. I might, if I know ASC was
>there.... Worth a thought. But the posting of stories? Is there a good way
>to do that in Facebook? Would we need worry about copyright etc?
Facebook/Live Journal ... classify them as the same.
>TrekSpace: Well, it is Trek-themed. It's a social media site sort of like
>Facebook. Friend people, post your status, etc. There are 2 small
>fanfiction groups there already. Maybe we could blow the pants off them?
>Facebook is the big name though. Might have the biggest potential draw of
>people.
>
>Trekiverse: Setup a forum or BBS system on Trekiverse for people to post
>comments and stories. Potential but users would have to remember to
>participate. Open the web site, sign in. I'm amazed how hard that is for
>me even. Facebook I hit more often. Email is always open.
Now for what I have under my control.
I have made the decision that I will soon be opening up the ASC Awards
Commenting system as a Trekiverse Commenting system. However, I must
rewrite the registration system for log in first. I have set a goal of
end of the month for this.
Submissions via Trekiverse: This option is in progress, and after the
change to log in, probably wouldn't take much work. It would give options
to submit to ASC, ASCA, and ASCEM. ETA ... not sure yet.
Trekiverse needs a revamp, and I think I finally have the time to do so ...
ironically, that's due to the ASC Awards cancellation prospect.
Stephen
D'Alaire
I love ASC right where it is, but indeed, NGs are just not the thing
anymore. For years, I have forwarded newer fans looking for more Trek
stories over to ASC and Trekiverse, to no avail. Posting in small
chunks is a pain and the archive is very difficult to navigate.
FF.net and blog communities are far easier and familiar to them, and
so they stay there.
I frankly love the blog idea, either for posting or just an digest.
I'm at Live Journal several times a day, posting and catching up. A
large portion of my friends are there, my ST communities are there,
and I'm on a couple of writing lists. It was the first thing I
thought of when I started reading this thread. Once one gets the hang
of it, it's easy to post and comment there, anonymous is open when
selected, and privacy is pretty easy to maintain (unlike Facebook,
which I personally find intrusive). The problem with LJ is their
tricky idea of acceptable content. There have been a few kerfuffles
because of it, and now they have an "adult content" dropdown. Though
we rate our fics well, some might find the dropdown grating.
So, perhaps a half-step into the blogosphere would be easier: An ASC
presence community can be set up at LJ--a post digest, as I get
through my Yahoo account, but with more information. Each post could
include each story's header information, including summary, with a
link back to the NG, and any special announcements, like FAQ, &c, all
tagged and organized so people can find what they're looking for.
With a little heads-up at the other Trek comms and journals there, it
might get a nice dose of attention. (I'd be happy to help with that,
BTW.)
My next blog suggestion would be Dreamwidth (http://
www.dreamwidth.org/), which is open source, private, inclusive to all
tastes and varieties. The software is very much like LJ's, easy to
use, and the people there are great. The problem there is that to
have a free account, one must be invited by a current member. I'm
happy to donate my three invites and let it pay forward, and anyone
can post anonymously if the group is open to that, but I have a
feeling people won't like that much needed wrangling. I could create
a digest comm there, too, however, and crosspost to LJ.
Trekspace is a great place to hang and play, but indeed, it's a lot
more exclusive and kind of out of the way. There are also annoying
spammers, which has soured me quite a bit to the place.
Looking forward to what other ideas are out there,
D'Alaire
Philippe de la Matraque
> I frankly love the blog idea, either for posting or just an digest.
>
> I'm at Live Journal several times a day, posting and catching up. A
> large portion of my friends are there, my ST communities are there,
> and I'm on a couple of writing lists. It was the first thing I
> thought of when I started reading this thread. Once one gets the hang
> of it, it's easy to post and comment there, anonymous is open when
> selected, and privacy is pretty easy to maintain (unlike Facebook,
> which I personally find intrusive). The problem with LJ is their
> tricky idea of acceptable content. There have been a few kerfuffles
> because of it, and now they have an "adult content" dropdown. Though
> we rate our fics well, some might find the dropdown grating.
>
I have a personal loathing of Live Journal. I won't go there even if you
paid me. And I don't think of "blog" as the way to go. It's separate and
individual. We are a group. So when I brainstormed social media sites like
Facebook, I was thinking of the groups within it, not the blogs (or
statuses) of each member. I can't say I know how LJ does that as I loath it
and won't go there.
(Why do I loath it? When I started the MEFA's, we used a nomination
system--still do. It's the only way when you don't have an archive--and
some stories were nominated with links to LJ. And you'd go to read them and
not find them. You'd have to scroll down and scour the person's blog for
the particular story. We had to make a rule banning LJ links for story
nominations. Now that I'm not running it, something may have changed
because the MEFAs are using LJ to post comments and winners. Grrr. I don't
mind if they do that so long as they also post them to the list. Which they
don't. Grrrrrrrrr.)
> So, perhaps a half-step into the blogosphere would be easier: An ASC
> presence community can be set up at LJ--a post digest, as I get
> through my Yahoo account, but with more information. Each post could
> include each story's header information, including summary, with a
> link back to the NG, and any special announcements, like FAQ, &c, all
> tagged and organized so people can find what they're looking for.
> With a little heads-up at the other Trek comms and journals there, it
> might get a nice dose of attention. (I'd be happy to help with that,
> BTW.)
Post digest means we're still posting here and people are just reading
there. If we move we have to have full participation. I did already set up
an experimental YahooGroup (stated very clearly that any posts there should
also be posted here) and there are presently 4 members including both of me
(Philippe and Gabrielle). I reposted the Challenges there. If anyone posts
there without posting here, I will forward those posts here.
>
> My next blog suggestion would be Dreamwidth (http://
> www.dreamwidth.org/), which is open source, private, inclusive to all
> tastes and varieties. The software is very much like LJ's, easy to
> use, and the people there are great. The problem there is that to
> have a free account, one must be invited by a current member. I'm
> happy to donate my three invites and let it pay forward, and anyone
> can post anonymously if the group is open to that, but I have a
> feeling people won't like that much needed wrangling. I could create
> a digest comm there, too, however, and crosspost to LJ.
Definitely don't like the inviting. We need to be open to new members
finding us. If we have to invite everyone we might miss a lot of potential
members. We need open membership.
> Trekspace is a great place to hang and play, but indeed, it's a lot
> more exclusive and kind of out of the way. There are also annoying
> spammers, which has soured me quite a bit to the place.
I haven't seen much spamming but then I go months without logging in there.
The mailing list has the advantage of being delivered to email with for many
people is where they read a newsgroup: in their email application. That's
where I'd have to put my vote if we were voting today. I might here some
new ideas that change that though so I'm glad we're not voting today.
Gabrielle
Alara Rogers
<pdelamatra...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> (Why do I loath it? When I started the MEFA's, we used a nomination
> system--still do. It's the only way when you don't have an archive--and
> some stories were nominated with links to LJ. And you'd go to read them and
> not find them. You'd have to scroll down and scour the person's blog for
> the particular story. We had to make a rule banning LJ links for story
> nominations. Now that I'm not running it, something may have changed
> because the MEFAs are using LJ to post comments and winners. Grrr. I don't
> mind if they do that so long as they also post them to the list. Which they
> don't. Grrrrrrrrr.)
I think your information's way out of date, and also sounds like
people just weren't using LJ correctly.
Posts on LJ are just as easy to directly link to as any other web
page, but if people were inserting links to the *account* rather than
the specific post, what you describe would have happened. But that's
like saying "My Story Name" and linking to alt.startrek.creative --
it's hardly the fault of the platform if people fail to link to the
specific web page/post and instead link to the general location.
I've been on Livejournal since 2001, and I have not had the problem
you describe except when people fail to enter the link properly, or
when the link goes to a friends-locked entry (which is no worse than
linking to a web page that's lost).
D'Alaire
> there. If we move we have to have full participation.
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I said only posting the *header*
information (title, author, date, codes, summary &c.--the nice neat
format we use at the start of our stories) with a link back to our NG,
where people post and comment. It's so people at LJ, et al., can see
what's on ASC and can choose to come to our NG if they want. It would
be a half step, not a full move.
On posting directly at LJ: Seconding Alara.
My only problem with the mail list (because I have long loved my MLs)
is that it's only one step newer than NGs. I'm still on many mail
lists, and they get no activity anymore. Everyone has moved on to
blogs, FF.net, &c. It would work for the people we have now, but I
don't think it would draw in many others. I would love to be wrong
about that.
~~D'A
D'Alaire
> information (title, author, date, codes, summary &c.--the nice neat
For the purpose of clarification, I also meat that one or two LJ
members would create the summary of stories posted here. (And that, I
would be happy to do at any time, set everything up and create the
entries.) The LJ Community, if used for this purpose, would be open
for announcements, comments and discussion (partly moderated, I'd
think), but the sole purpose of the LJ Community would be to let
people know what's been posted here.
LJC
forum for a lot of fanfic-centred fandom right now, it's far and away
replaced yahoo groups in terms of ease-of-use and traffic. While I
LIVED on Usenet while at uni back in the early 1990s, 20 years later,
LiveJournal is where I go daily for fannish discourse. I still post my
fiction on archives like archiveofourown.org, adastrafanfic.net, FFN,
and my own websites, there no real sense of COMMUNITY there, whereas
LiveJournal is all about the sense of community. And since getting
back into Trekfic for the first time in a decade, I've made great
friends in the Trek communities on LJ.
Also, the main reason why I don't come here as often as I used to is
the sense of community this newsgroup had back in the 1990s seems to
have faded away. Most of the folks from Trek fandom whom I've stayed
in touch with over the years (Dangermom, jenn, members of the PTC and
PTFever, Jean Kluge, etc.) are all on LJ. Even Rocky, D'alaire,
Slwatson, Djinn, Alara Rogers, ChristinaTM, etc. I interact with on LJ
and FFN than here.
Back in the day (and I'm talking early through late 1990s), there was
such great detailed feedback on fiction and lively discussion posts,
and that was why ASC was a destination for me. But this last year when
I have posted stories here, either folks I already knew from LJ
replied, or I was met with complete silence. And the few times I did
try to engage in discussion, the mood of the threads were... less than
welcoming.
As an Old Timer, I want to see ASC stick around in one form or another
because it helped shape me as on online fan. But I don't know if it
can survive on Usenet. not when the rest of online fandom has moved on.
Philippe de la Matraque
"D'Alaire" <swif...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f322c023-816e-4081...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 11:13 am, "Philippe de la Matraque"
<pdelamatra...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Post digest means we're still posting here and people are just reading
> there. If we move we have to have full participation.
>Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I said only posting the *header*
information (title, author, date, codes, summary &c.--the nice neat
format we use at the start of our stories) with a link back to our NG,
where people post and comment. It's so people at LJ, et al., can see
what's on ASC and can choose to come to our NG if they want. It would
be a half step, not a full move.
I think I read you wrong and I'm sorry for that. But now that you've
clarified, I think doing that so they'd come back the NG missing a big
point. Many people can't get to NGs (and yes, I know there's GoogleGroups.).
>On posting directly at LJ: Seconding Alara.
Well, I admit my experience with LJ was limited and frankly horrible so it
biased me against it. You don't have to pay me, but give me a link and I'll
go take a look at it. I still don't know how a blog site (what I know of it
says it's a blog site with add-ons) works for this as it's individualized.
You post a story and I have to go to *your* LJ. I post one (and I'm am
rather loathe to start yet another social media page) and you'll have to go
to mine and Alara posts and we have to go to hers. Here at the NG we just
come to the NJ. That's the sort of thing I'd like to recreated. One stop
shop for stories, comments, discussions, etc.
>M only problem with the mail list (because I have long loved my MLs)
is that it's only one step newer than NGs. I'm still on many mail
lists, and they get no activity anymore. Everyone has moved on to
blogs, FF.net, &c. It would work for the people we have now, but I
don't think it would draw in many others. I would love to be wrong
about that.
True it is only one step newer, but email is not likely to go the way of the
do-do for a very long time. We all still have email and we all still check
email. I have mine sort into folders so I'd go to my ASC folder like I'd go
to this NG. But I don't have to have a newsreader to get it.
Also, the newest thing is short posts like Twitter and FB statuses. Not the
best for stories but great for keeping up! I still think having posts show
up in my inbox works best for me rather than having to open up another
website every day. I always have email open. Always. And I am probably
like others: I post stories to several places. Every story I ever posted
here (with the exception of The Doctor) is on fanfiction.net. I'd be silly
not to put them there.
For community in ML, well, it's kind of the same as here except less
limiting. Email is easier than NG because not everyone has newservers.
That said, they are as active as their membership. The MEFAs are still
strong as a group because stories are still being nominated and the process
is still being talked about (it's almost a year-long event now).
Henneth-Annun is less busy where it used to have hundreds of posts a month.
It waxes and wanes I think. It's harder when the show/movie is not on the
air/screen in anymore.
There's less Trek fiction (except AOS) on ff.net these days for the same
reason. So this NG has declined, as I see it, for 3 reasons:
1) Shows off the air, less stories in general
2) NG's harder to get to
3) stories spring up in other places and don't come here.
Gabrielle
Gabrielle
D'Alaire
On Jan 7, 5:36 pm, "Philippe de la Matraque"
<pdelamatra...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I think doing that so they'd come back the NG missing a big
> point. Many people can't get to NGs (and yes, I know there's GoogleGroups.).
Through Google Groups would be the only way to do a linkback service.
Google is easy to sign in and post to, easy to read, readily available
to everyone for free and simple to link to. Nothing would change at
ASC if there were linkback communities at LJ and DW. It'd just be
pointing the way.
As for the idea of moving all posting to a journal...
> You post a story and I have to go to *your* LJ.
No, you post and read at that community if that's how the community is
set up. Though it's easier to let people link back to their journal,
you can specify to all posters that fics must be posted there, not
"fake cut" (i.e., linked to their journal). Either way, it ends up on
the community's page. Here's an example of a comm that allows both:
http://community.livejournal.com/trekfics/
But again, I honestly don't see ASC moving off Usenet, though LJC is
right in that is probably won't survive here as is. That's why I like
the linkback community idea as I do. And I like any kind of messaging
that alerts people to new fics (like Twitter, as you mentioned) when
they choose to get that alert. All of it would offer ASC more
attention, which is a start.
~~D'A
Rocky
ASC and awards) to Stephen, but wanted to put in my two cents on the
whole newsgroup vs. LiveJournal topic.
In the beginning years of my involvement with online Trek ('94-'00--I
didn't start posting to alt.startrek.creative until 2000 but had been
active in .current, .tech etc. previously), my participation really
depended on how good my newsreader was. And that depended on my ISP
(and I switched a few times over the years, due to moving and such). I
was very happy when google took over dejanews because from that time
on I had absolutely no problems posting to any of the newsgroups.
Access via google groups still seems very easy to me, but every year I
encounter major resistance when I try to explain to folks on VAMB, for
example, or other Trek sites on the internet, how to read and post to
the ASC (let alone how to register and comment during the awards).
LiveJournal has community accounts as well as individual ones and
posting stories there is very, very simple. You can either post the
story directly to the community (under a cut so you don't take up too
much space on the main page), or have a link back to it on your own LJ
account, or even a link to your personal homepage (or even ff.net or
other archive, if you are so inclined though I personally quit posting
my stories on ff.net due to being plagiarized a number of years ago).
It doesn't matter in terms of readibility, or of readers being able to
post feedback, where your story link leads. As long as the headers are
in the text you post to the community group. Check out
http://community.livejournal.com/trek_fanfic/ to see what I mean.
Trek fanfic--not just TOS and AOS but TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT--is *still*
being written, some by "older" authors who have long since drifted
away from ASC, or those who were solely on the old mailing lists and
yahoo groups, and some by newer writers who have no idea that ASC even
exists, or just what the sheer volume of stories on the archive
actually is (and I agree, accessing the archive needs to get a lot
less unwieldly). We need to somehow bring these people into our fold,
so to speak. Moving ASC off the newsgroup may be necessary. I don't
know. I do know, that has been pointed out by other people in this
thread, the alternatives are out there, and it definitely bears
looking into if we want ASC to continue in some form.
-Rocky
Philippe de la Matraque
"Rocky" <rocky...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:df0cec14-28a2-464b...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>I usually leave the technical stuff (and all major decisions regarding
> ASC and awards) to Stephen, but wanted to put in my two cents on the
> whole newsgroup vs. LiveJournal topic.
>
> In the beginning years of my involvement with online Trek ('94-'00--I
> didn't start posting to alt.startrek.creative until 2000 but had been
> active in .current, .tech etc. previously), my participation really
> depended on how good my newsreader was. And that depended on my ISP
> (and I switched a few times over the years, due to moving and such). I
> was very happy when google took over dejanews because from that time
> on I had absolutely no problems posting to any of the newsgroups.
> Access via google groups still seems very easy to me, but every year I
> encounter major resistance when I try to explain to folks on VAMB, for
> example, or other Trek sites on the internet, how to read and post to
> the ASC (let alone how to register and comment during the awards).
Yeah, that's the issue with leaving anything in the NG as I see it. Yes,
it's possible but if it's at all cumbersome, we're going to miss out on some
potential writers/readers/lurkers.
> LiveJournal has community accounts as well as individual ones and
> posting stories there is very, very simple. You can either post the
> story directly to the community (under a cut so you don't take up too
> much space on the main page), or have a link back to it on your own LJ
> account, or even a link to your personal homepage (or even ff.net or
> other archive, if you are so inclined though I personally quit posting
> my stories on ff.net due to being plagiarized a number of years ago).
> It doesn't matter in terms of readibility, or of readers being able to
> post feedback, where your story link leads. As long as the headers are
> in the text you post to the community group. Check out
> http://community.livejournal.com/trek_fanfic/ to see what I mean.
Thanks to all for the education here. I'm trying to leave my loathing of LJ
behind, though (and this was addressed in another post) I would want to see
whole stories posted to the community if that's the route we go and not
links back to individual blogs or ff.net, etc.
I did check out that link. I do see stories posted there with headers (and
links). But I don't see a lot of commentary on those stories. Do you get
feedback for your stories off-community? Or is it suffering the same derth
of feedback as here?
> Trek fanfic--not just TOS and AOS but TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT--is *still*
> being written, some by "older" authors who have long since drifted
> away from ASC, or those who were solely on the old mailing lists and
> yahoo groups, and some by newer writers who have no idea that ASC even
> exists, or just what the sheer volume of stories on the archive
> actually is (and I agree, accessing the archive needs to get a lot
> less unwieldly). We need to somehow bring these people into our fold,
> so to speak. Moving ASC off the newsgroup may be necessary. I don't
> know. I do know, that has been pointed out by other people in this
> thread, the alternatives are out there, and it definitely bears
> looking into if we want ASC to continue in some form.
I think it's necessary too, but the option we choose is still up for grabs.
PS: If we do go to Live Journal, I may let Philippe have his own blog space.
I have more than enough to pay attention to already.
Gabrielle
Stephen aka Old Man ASC
wrote:
>On Jan 7, 11:13�am, "Philippe de la Matraque"
><pdelamatra...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Post digest means we're still posting here and people are just reading
>> there. �If we move we have to have full participation.
>
>Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I said only posting the *header*
>information (title, author, date, codes, summary &c.--the nice neat
>format we use at the start of our stories) with a link back to our NG,
>where people post and comment. It's so people at LJ, et al., can see
>what's on ASC and can choose to come to our NG if they want. It would
>be a half step, not a full move.
>
>On posting directly at LJ: Seconding Alara.
>
>My only problem with the mail list (because I have long loved my MLs)
>is that it's only one step newer than NGs.
Actually, mailing lists pre-date newgroups ... it's the method that thus
far has not gone away.
I have to ask ...
If Trekiverse provided a post to newsgroup option (which would have someone
(me) doing the post for you) do you think that would be helpful?
If Trekiverse had a way to post to both that, and say Gabreille's
Yahoogroup at the same time (an option I'm exploring for ASCEML, the
yahoogroup posting, that is) would that be helpful?
Stephen
D'Alaire
wrote:
> Actually, mailing lists pre-date newgroups ... it's the method that thus
> far has not gone away.
Well, if you want to get technical, like when they were using stone
tablets as hard drives... ;^)
I stand corrected. USENET appeared in the early 80s, yes? I
disovered them late--in around '89. I did not imagine that mail lists
were around then--but indeed, it makes sense. I was thinking of mail
lists as I have always known them. I will have to read more about
that. :^)
> If Trekiverse provided a post to newsgroup option (which would have someone
> (me) doing the post for you) do you think that would be helpful?
It would be nice for newer fans to have a clean, simple interface
that's not locked up in Google Groups or email, yes.
> If Trekiverse had a way to post to both that, and say Gabreille's
> Yahoogroup at the same time (an option I'm exploring for ASCEML, the
> yahoogroup posting, that is) would that be helpful?
As I said above, *any* means of making it easy to access and post to
the newsgroup would be very helpful, but it still would not solve the
problem of ASC's desert island status.
People, namely newer fans, don't know about ASC, and if they do, they
don't see any benefit in posting here. What does ASC have that every
other fanfic posting community doesn't have? What's the point of
posting here, particularly if they think they'll get no more feedback
or discussion here than other places--and not in the convenient
package that LJ provides via a user's Friends Page (where all their
friends' and communities' posts are handily posted on one page)? Why
should they bother with a forum that's, in many minds, behind the
times? --This is what I get from people who don't even bother with
email except to get accounts at LJ and the like verified. Heck, I
haven't used email for ASC for ages, but exclusively use Google
Groups, where I can see the whole discussion.
So many writers and readers out there don't know about the incredible
history of this group, so much that's come before them, and the
potential benefit of posting here. We remember the heyday, what this
place can be when it's alive with discussion and stories, challenges
and the occaisonal humor, but others don't. Any way to get the word
out about what ASC is doing and hopefully generate some interest and
activity couldn't hurt.
Whew. I haven't been so passionate about something in fandom for a
long, long while. The cancellation of the awards really gave me a
jolt. Like LJC, my idea of fandom and Trek fandom in particular was
developed at ASC. I really would like to help keep that going.
~~D'A
Opal
grown ups table in fandom terms I suppose. I didn't know what a
usenet group was and it had to be explained to me. I don't think
there's anything to be lost by crossposting. More exposure never hurt
anyone.
Feedback is for StarTrek works (aside from AOS) is a little slow and
livejournal as well unless you post in a specialised group just for
that pairing or show. I think fans in general are less thoughtful
than they used to be. Really well written feedback is hard to come by
and it seems like it was more common before.
Philippe de la Matraque
"Opal" <opal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4727f857-2766-484b...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>I actually came here from Livejournal, which makes me a kid at the
> grown ups table in fandom terms I suppose. I didn't know what a
> usenet group was and it had to be explained to me. I don't think
> there's anything to be lost by crossposting. More exposure never hurt
> anyone.
We're glad to have you and I agree. More exposure is fine!
> Feedback is for StarTrek works (aside from AOS) is a little slow and
> livejournal as well unless you post in a specialised group just for
> that pairing or show. I think fans in general are less thoughtful
> than they used to be. Really well written feedback is hard to come by
> and it seems like it was more common before.
Perhaps. I remember when I posted my first story here in 1996. Folks were
complaining about lack of feedback but I didn't see it because I got a LOT.
But yes, ith as quieted down from my perspective, but I'm biased in that
I've slowed down. So what I see may be reflective of my own involvement. I
haven't posted a DS9 story since 2003(?) and I've been posting Philippe's
ENT story since 2004. (Yikes!) WIPs don't generally get as much feedback
here so I chalked it up to that.
And RL has an amazing way of getting in the way of fandom. I was WAY into
the MEFAs. I founded them, organized them, read and commented on hundresds
of stories. Then I met this guy...... And sort of dropped out in the middle
of the 2nd year. I was almost completely gone for the 3rd. I think I might
have jumped in at the last minute to read a few stories....
I'm not paying as much attention to Henneth-Annun (probably because I'm not
writing any LOTR right now). I haven't kept up with my infamous spreadsheet
(stories from ff.net that I want to check out and then read if they look
good--over 2000 stories). I used to scoure ff.net every day for stories.
I used to read almost ALL THE TIME. I don't anymore.
That's my experience in fandom.
As for LJ, you've brought up a valid point for not going that way. As a
generalized community we might still not gain anymore involvement or
feedback because people tend to go to more specialized communities, divided
by ship pairing etc.
We do need inclusive and generalized to stay alt.startrek.creative.
Otherwise we risk becoming alt.startrek.creative.ent.r/s
Gabrielle/Philippe
SLWatson
community. ;-)
LJC
> Actually, LJC, I'd say Ad Astra's forums are a spectacularly good
> community. ;-)
You're right--there is a great sense of community on AdAstra. I meant
FFN and AO3, and added Ad Astra afterwards when I remembered that I
posted there as well.
However, I will say that Ad Astra can be a hard nut to crack. I've
been there for months, and still feel very much like an outsider
because my focus as a writer tends to be more on canon characters than
original crews, and more on character vignettes and romance than multi-
chapter epics. I try and post often to threads that interest me, but
my responses get ignored a lot of the time. So as a writer, I don't
often get to really engage with the other writers on the site. And
because I'm writing AOS and TOS Pike 7 Number One, I don't get much in
the way of feedback except from the same handful of folks--you, Rocky,
Ter--and any other feedback I get tends to be as a result of "review
hunts". I just am not writing the sorts of stories that are of general
interest to that crowd, and it's not a criticism of the site or the
community. It's just an observation that I've personally experienced a
lot more give-and-take and a lot more feedback, discussion, and
general sense of community in Trek fandom for me on Livejournal (both
in comms, and just on my flist) than I've experienced in any other
forum I've taken part in in the last year.
And also, while the fanfic boards at TrekBBS, and the community at
AdAstra are active, they are still only archive for a relatively small
group of writers. Whereas the fan fiction communities on Livejournal
have thousands of members and hundreds of posters, and it's the best
place to recruit new fans who've just discovered Trek via the new
film, and a lot of longtime fans (such as jenn, Suzvoy, Dangermom,
etc.) who've long since moved away from NGs as their primary channel
of distribution. I think that ASC would benefit from teh unflux of new
writers, as well as the return of old timers, on Livejournal.
LJC
LJC
> And also, while the fanfic boards at TrekBBS, and the community at
> AdAstra are active, they are still only archive
Make that "only active".
This is what I get for trying to sneak in newsgroup posts while at
work!
LJC
LJC
http://taraljc.livejournal.com/1452190.html
to help give folks actual data. I crossposted it to two comms with
about 2800 members between them, as well as my flist (900 people, give
or take). There's most likely quite a lot of overlap, but I figure
with a sample size of at least 1000, that should be a decent amount of
data. So hopefully my tomorrow-ish, at least we'll have some numbers
to play with, to give a general picture of Trek fandom on LJ's
thoughts about ASC?
LJC
KyRoka
My vote a separate site heavily based on a forum/message board hosted
somewhere (I volunteer hosting space if needed). Benefits would be
posting is fairly simple and similar to newsgroup posting on Google
right now, so there would be some similarity. It could be kept
bandwidth-light, but without dependence on whether yourISP deems
newsgroups worthy with other sections for other things perhaps --
maybe we expand out to artwork and other visualelementslike that? I'd
probably still stray away fromvideos justbecause TPTBstill seem to be
finnicky dependingon the day... it could become a hassle.
Just for reference, I'm talking aboutsomething like this format, but
obviously Trek-related :)
http://www.reallifeforums.com/
THe main benefits I see would be:
- we could have forums for each type of story to help beyond the
monthly (or, err, random monthly)recaps and have form fields set up
for posting stories with all the classic header information easy for
writers to fill out. I hate digging.
- guests/non-logged in users would be free to read, butto comment/post
register. At whichpoint we can track a usersactivity and recognize
those more prolific than others. Also, this would cut down/eliminate
spam and not togo all negative, but problem users could be suspended.
Of course the other side of the coin is how to get people back to ASC.
Obviously once sites got easier to make, there were far more places
out there to go. I've noticed a lot of people looking to ditch their
sites, and it's usually not for a lack of interest but because RL has
taken over. Maybe ASC can become the orphange for these sites. For
those still going, I think ASC still has "brand recognition" and we
build a network somewhat similar to a webring. So basically ASC
becomes the UFP. Each member/planet/site still their own autonomous
network, but all contributing toASC and all working towardsthe same
goal.
Also theoretically since it would be database driven, all the stories
could be pulled straight fromthere for archiving and come awards time,
big data dump, big data sort... and done. About time thesecomputers
did the leg work for us and let us enjoy.
--
KyRoka
Lori
> Now for what I have under my control.
>
> I have made the decision that I will soon be opening up the ASC Awards
> Commenting system as a Trekiverse Commenting system. However, I must
> rewrite the registration system for log in first. I have set a goal of
> end of the month for this.
>
> Submissions via Trekiverse: This option is in progress, and after the
> change to log in, probably wouldn't take much work. It would give options
> to submit to ASC, ASCA, and ASCEM. ETA ... not sure yet.
>
> Trekiverse needs a revamp, and I think I finally have the time to do so ...
> ironically, that's due to the ASC Awards cancellation prospect.
>
> Stephen
Stephen,
Hi!
I wanted to make a suggestion that might make life easier for you.
You may or may not be aware of archiveofourown.org, spearheaded by the
Organization of Transformative Works - this is a group of professional
authors and others who have been working together over the past couple
of years to create a large free repository of fanfiction of all kinds.
Some Trek authors have shown up there already and many others have not
- I bring it up not because I think Trekiverse should merge with them,
but because when their archive software is out of beta they intend to
make it available under a Creative Commons license.
I don't know about the feasibility of doing a mass import of the
Trekiverse archive, or somehow automating crossposting from an archive
set up in such software. There is a good deal of functionality already
in the beta version of the software that allows for a user to import
from other pages of their own, which people are using with some
success. There are a lot of nice features solely for fan writers - you
can gift other fans, categorize by challenge, tag fics, and edit in
rich text or html - and they allow you to post series as series.
One of the challenges with posting to ASC anymore is the tediousness
of cutting larger works into pieces, using plain text, and newer folk
having the coding learning curve - all of this is eliminated with
software such as this. All the codes and pairings previously used are
there. If you start typing a character name freeform it will pop up
suggestions already in the system. When the archive is reindexed it
adds new codes/pairings/characters that have since been put in the
system. While still not perfect, it means not having to post and
repost FAQs.
I have an invitation sitting in my account at the Archive of Our Own
if you would like to see how the posting system works there and give
it some thought, Stephen.
Lori
Lori
My top reasons for suggesting this:
1) writers will be able to cut and paste stories with italics,
boldface and other coding straight in, categorize, and post, all on
their own, from blog software. They will do the work, you maintain the
archive software.
2) Awards could easily become less work for the entire crew. I don't
code, and don't know much about the back end of this software... but I
could see awards being simplified 10,000 times over by a little extra
coding. You could do the work once and every year the awards could get
simpler.
3) The archive software proposed has a few ways to "give feedback"
that the current Trekiverse archive doesn't. Each story has a hit
counter. There is a bookmark feature - you can make a bookmark private
or public, and public bookmarks are viewable by everyone - there is a
comment field on the bookmark where the maker can post a short review
of the fic. This becomes a rec list. You can also leave comments on a
story, and have them appear in an inbox on the author's archive
account AND/OR emailed to the author, depending on their preference.
4) Click on a tag, category, author, pairing - and you get a list of
fics that have the same tag/category/author/pairing! You don't have to
rely on search - though that's there too.
5) in its final version the software allows you to subscribe - any new
works by the author will come to you when they are posted, you are
reminded in your archive inbox.
I know it would be a huge change... but I don't visit the archive
anymore. I'm spoiled. I suspect I am among many who are. Ease of use
in other places makes me less patient with the search feature at
trekiverse. I've googled fic instead and even resorted to the wayback
machine - Talking Stick/Circle has finally fallen off the internet!
People who don't know the archive is there and don't know this place
exists won't see work like that. A facelift would help. Easier ways to
access the fic would help.
I'm voting (if I have a vote) against things like Livejournal because
that may be easy and everyone uses it, but there's no direct control
over the back end of it, they change the software as they please, and
it's not nearly as functional as having an archive software
specifically for fandom. Part of the problem with remaining on Usenet
- look how little control we have over how it all works! We have to
resort to googlegroups or similar, which I don't like either.
I think that giving people the ability to directly post fic into a
user friendly interface at the archive itself will streamline things
to the point that it will free up our wonderful volunteers for other
tasks, such as sorting out how to continue the awards in meaningful
fashion, or starting up a wing of the archive for multimedia fan
works, or even having our own Yuletide, Trek style. (Yuletide only
focuses on rare/small fandoms, they don't have Trek, so there wouldn't
be overlap.) I think if you had all the fic in a place accessible to
more people with those of us who are out there in livejournal,
dreamjournal, etc fandom communities announcing the newer user
friendlier ASC archive/awards driving ASC back into public awareness -
we might just see a resurgence in fic posted.
I think I finished my thoughts this time. Hopefully with a little more
coherence. Going to get my second cup of coffee now.
Lori
Stephen aka Old Man ASC
Importing into a new system is actually the big problem with converting
over to such a system. Trekiverse has 14,000+ works in the current
database. This does not count this year or 2004 which is in a separate
database at the moment. I have actually tried a couple different archiving
software packages, and I'm afraid that thus far importing remains the
greatest difficulty
>One of the challenges with posting to ASC anymore is the tediousness
>of cutting larger works into pieces,
Okay, I have been studying the size limit issue. To be perfectly honest,
unless you're posting an epic, it's no longer an issue. The revised FAQ to
be posted later this week will be increasing the size of post reference
size.
>using plain text,
Plain text should never be an issue. Quite frankly sites chosing to do
other import methods and posting methods are asking for bugs. I've been a
consultant for several other archives during set up, during which I advised
them that plain text was the way to go, with perhaps limited html. Every
single one of the tech people involved has told me that they wished they'd
listened.
That being said, Trekiverse will be accepting other limited methods soon.
>and newer folk
>having the coding learning curve - all of this is eliminated with
>software such as this. All the codes and pairings previously used are
>there.
The new submission form, currently betaing has drop downs for each valid
pairing plus the original pairing selections. I'm hopeful that I will be
able to premier it as soon as the login issue is handled. (See separate
note)
>If you start typing a character name freeform it will pop up
>suggestions already in the system. When the archive is reindexed it
>adds new codes/pairings/characters that have since been put in the
>system. While still not perfect, it means not having to post and
>repost FAQs.
Trust me when I say that FAQs will always be required.
>
>I have an invitation sitting in my account at the Archive of Our Own
>if you would like to see how the posting system works there and give
>it some thought, Stephen.
>
>Lori
I'd like to see it, and in particular the database structure beneath it. To
tell the truth, it's the technical side that is the key. If I can figure
out what's under the hood, I could convert to it. Unfortunately most of
the ones to date haven't made it. Re-uploading 14,000+ is not something
I'm willing to do.
Stephen
Stephen aka Old Man ASC
>Aaaand... now that I've had coffee....
>
>My top reasons for suggesting this:
>
>1) writers will be able to cut and paste stories with italics,
>boldface and other coding straight in, categorize, and post, all on
>their own, from blog software. They will do the work, you maintain the
>archive software.
Categorization is already automated based on headers. This issue is not a
factor.
>2) Awards could easily become less work for the entire crew. I don't
>code, and don't know much about the back end of this software... but I
>could see awards being simplified 10,000 times over by a little extra
>coding. You could do the work once and every year the awards could get
>simpler.
The Awards are already very simple. I take the list of stories added, and
add the category at the end. This issue is not a factor.
>3) The archive software proposed has a few ways to "give feedback"
>that the current Trekiverse archive doesn't. Each story has a hit
>counter. There is a bookmark feature - you can make a bookmark private
>or public, and public bookmarks are viewable by everyone - there is a
>comment field on the bookmark where the maker can post a short review
>of the fic. This becomes a rec list. You can also leave comments on a
>story, and have them appear in an inbox on the author's archive
>account AND/OR emailed to the author, depending on their preference.
The Trekiverse system upgrade (currently on hold due to needing the log in
feature to activate) will be doing the following for reviews:
A) Reviews will be an option for every story
B) Authors can activate e-mail of all their reviews
C) The most recent reviews will appear on a daily updated page
automatically.
D) A daily file will be generated for posting to ASC titled "The archive
recomends today."
All this fuctionality has been built for the ASC Awards, but has been on
hold due to issues with creating a log in to prevent spamming.
I can activate A and C at anytime, if people are willing to accept
unsecured reviews. D is just a bit behind that.
As this portion is a current work in progress.
>4) Click on a tag, category, author, pairing - and you get a list of
>fics that have the same tag/category/author/pairing! You don't have to
>rely on search - though that's there too.
That I'd love. In fact it's something that I've almost got ready. The
current issue behind that is a bit of index file generation. Once the log
in issue is solved, and 2009's works are all up, expect that to be solved.
Right now it's a file generation and link issue, that just really requires
that I create a scanning and linking system ... matter of typing and
rerunning the database through the htmlizer.
>5) in its final version the software allows you to subscribe - any new
>works by the author will come to you when they are posted, you are
>reminded in your archive inbox.
I'm liking the options, assuming that the import issue is solved. That in
itself has always been my hold back since I've run the index (I'm actually
the second Index Maintainer ... I've been doing it too long)
We have a structure for the files in the archive that dates back to 1991.
That structure is the big limit, in my experience, for conversion. It's
changed a little, been built upon (adding series, drabble directory, etc)
but largely it remains unchanged, and very hard to move. That being said
... I'm willing to dump it, over dail up, if the import issue would to be
solved.
One note about the archive story URLs. We've set it up so the name of the
story is in the URL. This feature is the one factor that keeps coming up
that people always seem to want us to keep. Most archiving software
doesn't allow that. Consider this a would be nice to do if I have to re
upload ... which I really don't want to do.
>I know it would be a huge change... but I don't visit the archive
>anymore. I'm spoiled. I suspect I am among many who are. Ease of use
>in other places makes me less patient with the search feature at
>trekiverse. I've googled fic instead and even resorted to the wayback
>machine - Talking Stick/Circle has finally fallen off the internet!
It's archived.
>People who don't know the archive is there and don't know this place
>exists won't see work like that. A facelift would help. Easier ways to
>access the fic would help.
Facelift ... consider it on it's way. Searching ... on it's way. Automatic
pairing links from the codes ... on it's way. In fact, you'll be seeing a
change in how the codes are listed in the archive as a result of that.
>I'm voting (if I have a vote) against things like Livejournal because
>that may be easy and everyone uses it, but there's no direct control
>over the back end of it, they change the software as they please, and
>it's not nearly as functional as having an archive software
>specifically for fandom. Part of the problem with remaining on Usenet
>- look how little control we have over how it all works! We have to
>resort to googlegroups or similar, which I don't like either.
>
>I think that giving people the ability to directly post fic into a
>user friendly interface at the archive itself
You know, this point actually makes me smile. You see, there was a direct
submission page to the archive from 2002-5 ... it was used three times.
Today ... it's necessary (unfortunately the backend is entirely missing
from that time) and will be back.
>will streamline things
>to the point that it will free up our wonderful volunteers for other
>tasks, such as sorting out how to continue the awards in meaningful
>fashion, or starting up a wing of the archive for multimedia fan
>works, or even having our own Yuletide, Trek style. (Yuletide only
>focuses on rare/small fandoms, they don't have Trek, so there wouldn't
>be overlap.) I think if you had all the fic in a place accessible to
>more people with those of us who are out there in livejournal,
>dreamjournal, etc fandom communities announcing the newer user
>friendlier ASC archive/awards driving ASC back into public awareness -
>we might just see a resurgence in fic posted.
That might actually work. Contact me.
>I think I finished my thoughts this time. Hopefully with a little more
>coherence. Going to get my second cup of coffee now.
Double strong, double sweet, I assume.
Stephen
who for too long has been lacking ideas and people to do them.
Lori
> Importing into a new system is actually the big problem with converting
> over to such a system. Trekiverse has 14,000+ works in the current
> database. This does not count this year or 2004 which is in a separate
> database at the moment. I have actually tried a couple different archiving
> software packages, and I'm afraid that thus far importing remains the
> greatest difficulty
This is why I made the suggestion... This is the only fan centered
software I'm aware of. It's being coded from the bottom up just for
fans and currently has 46,077 works archived in the beta. And since
this is a group of fans building something for fans, they're certainly
going to be sympathetic and possibly willing to work with you.
>
> >One of the challenges with posting to ASC anymore is the tediousness
> >of cutting larger works into pieces,
>
> Okay, I have been studying the size limit issue. To be perfectly honest,
> unless you're posting an epic, it's no longer an issue. The revised FAQ to
> be posted later this week will be increasing the size of post reference
> size.
I have over a million words and counting posted. Epics are my personal
issue. I'll still have to chunk things up. And I know I am not the
only one....
>
>
>
> Trust me when I say that FAQs will always be required.
I didn't say they wouldn't be - I said YOU WON'T HAVE TO REPOST THEM.
Edit them when you want, revise, change the font color - but they'll
be right there in the space where the posting ficcer can click and
read any time, and where you can drop a note in their inbox telling
them to.
>
>
>
> I'd like to see it, and in particular the database structure beneath it. To
> tell the truth, it's the technical side that is the key. If I can figure
> out what's under the hood, I could convert to it. Unfortunately most of
> the ones to date haven't made it. Re-uploading 14,000+ is not something
> I'm willing to do.
>
I don't know if you will be able to get ahold of the software itself,
but I'll send you the invite - it will let you see the posting
process and the author dashboard, among other things.
Seriously, Stephen, I know there's been a metric ton of work into
trekiverse every year - I see this as an opportunity for you
volunteers to lessen your load, if the database can be shifted into
it. I know the importing process is not fun - even a little blog
moving to a different platform can be a challenge.
Lori
LJC
have had a chance to take a look at the poll results (or read the
comments posted to the poll, which I would highly recommend) but here
is the current data:
Respondents Thus Far: 111
Alt.Startrek.Creative...
I used to post there, but now post solely to LJ - (14.5%)
I still post there, but I crosspost fiction to my LJ and other
archives - (4.5%)
I've never posted there, but used to read fanfic there - (34.5%)
What is this Usenet you speak of? - (46.4%)
If ASC had an LJ Comm...
I would post my Trek fic there, but not to the Newsgroup - (8.6%)
I would post my Trek fic there, and to the Newsgroup - (9.5%)
I would read Trek fic there - (42.9%)
I still probably wouldn't read/post fanfic to ASC - (3.8%)
All my current fic needs are met by FFN/AO3/existing LJ Trek comms -
(35.2%)
Comments are here: http://taraljc.livejournal.com/1452190.html
I'm going to pimp the poll one last time, in an attempt to get more
data, but my take-away from the poll is that while almost 50% of the
folks who responded have never posted to Usenet, almost 50% said they
would read Trek fan fiction posted to ASC if ASC had a Livejournal
comm.
So even if the stories themselves are posted to Trekiverse rather than
here on Usenet, having an LJ comm would definitely raise visibility,
and most importantly, bring new writers and readers to ASC.
LJC
Vidicon
Gabrielle Lawson
Gabrielle
"Vidicon" <cara...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2add3dbb-04bd-497b...@googlegroups.com...
Katie Redshoes
Anyhow, I hope any of you still around will check out our new Trekiverse blog at trekiverse.wordpress.com - talking about some of the things we're working on, including social media. Don't know about venturing into LiveJournal instead of Wordpress - I've personally never felt quite comfortable on LJ.
Damn, it's so sad to see how empty it is around here. :-(
Katie Redshoes