"Raisins and Almonds" VOY J/C 3/28

[Pegeel]

Standard disclaimers, as per pt.1

Raisins and Almonds, pt3
C. 1996, Peg Robinson

The last two years it's seemed wiser not to notice... or
try hard not to let it show when nature flags me down in
spite of my caution. Reality has never allowed for more
than flirt and dream, though, and there's always been the
needs of the work or the next crisis to come around the bend
to chase away any romantic haze before it's done more than
start to develop. But in the quiet of the office, with him
locked hard into his work, it seemed safe enough to let
myself feel the little shudder of "nice... very nice" that I
don't allow myself normally. A small indulgence; to let
myself admire a man I'd come to admire in more ways than
one. And it's not as though he hasn't paid me the same
compliment a time or two. So I looked, and enjoyed... and
worried.
He looked too tired.
I sighed, finished the cold coffee, rubbed my eyes, and
returned to the terminal. I'd try to deal with it later.
For the time being there was enough on my plate with the
question of Kes. I pushed it to the back of my mind;
another problem to be dealt with on the day the Delta
Quadrant gave me the time and stability to take it on.

It was probably about an hour later, as I was trying to
sort through a pile of cryptic comments regarding
"Ocampanoid races", that he slapped the table, and grinned
evilly at his screen.
"Gotcha, sucker."
"Pay dirt?"
"I think so. Close, high tech, Ocampan type race, though
they don't seem to have the difficulty with lifespan that
Kes' people do."
"Let me see."
Before I could "twin" his screen on my own, he'd spun the
terminal so we could both see it. I leaned in towards the
center of the desk, he did too, and for a brief second I
felt that annoying, jittering feeling I remember from my
teens and early twenties, when "too close" was a perpetual
problem. I shoved the attraction to one side, no longer
feeling free to indulge it, and locked my mind to the
screen.
The evaluation looked good. It was from a collection of
material we'd gotten from a passing Talaxian merchant
caravan that traded regularly along the route we were taking
home. We'd had the information for about six months... it
had lain in a file that long, waiting to be incorporated
into the databases, and probably wouldn't have been touched
for another month or more if this hadn't come up.
"The Talaxians call it 'The Walled Market', but according
to this the natives' name for it is Abbyzh-dira... means The
World of Veils. Apparently a comment on the rings." He
shook his head. "Not many habitable worlds with rings... it
appears to be a peculiarity of the system. Dust particles,
with a lot of reflectivity. Must be pretty."
I nodded, and reached out to run my finger down the column
of specs.
"Pretty is nice, but this is better... they've been in
contact with space-faring races for nearly a thousand years.
Beats us by about six hundred. That gets us past the first
of the Prime Directive questions. Trade based economy; they
don't leave their own planet often, but they do business
with races that do.. Their specialty... this is looking
good, Chakotay: herbs, spices, medicinals... and trained
experts in a variety of fields... though how you 'trade'
experts is worrying."
"Slavers?"
"See if you can find out."
His fingers flew over the command pad, the screen
flickering in response.
"Can't tell for sure. They definitely refer to it as
'trade', and there seem to be indications of exchange of
funds... but if the Talaxian records are correct, the
'experts' traded not only don't need to be confined, but
they're expected to be treated as first class passengers on
any trade ships that carry them... and there seem to be a
hellacious lot of contractual obligations listed in the
files concerning the rights and liberties permitted them.
Maybe somewhere between contract labor, serfdom, and sworn
men? There doesn't seem to be much on it."
I shrugged. "Unless you can screw more information out of
that machine, we may just have to wait until we get there to
find out for sure. What else?"
"The Talaxians seem to think they're... tricky... to deal
with. Nothing specific. Damn." He spun through more
screens, looking for who-knows-what. At last he shook his
head. "No. There's more, but not much more to the point.
They look like the best option I've found so far, though.
Want me to keep looking?"
"Maybe later. I think you're probably right. This looks
like our best shot right now. If you have time tomorrow see
if you can dig more up, either on this world or any other
possibilities, or assign Harry the job if you're too busy.
In the meantime we run with what we've got"
He nodded, and sighed, saving the file to his own account
and turning the terminal off. I called the bridge, gave
Chin orders to compute and set a course for the coordinates
we had on Abbyzh-dira, then called the holodoctor.
"Doctor, have you finished your evaluation?"
"You're early, Captain. It will be another hour before
the final tests are in and the evaluation finished."
"Are you far enough along to give me some idea of whether
we're looking at a good risk, or an impossibility? We've
found a potential source of medical information, and
possibly even assistance, and I'd like to be able to take
the matter up with Neelix now. That would be easier if I
knew more about what we're looking at."
"Indeed. In that case, Captain, I would recommend that
you advise Mr. Neelix that at this time the results, while
inconclusive, are promising."
"Very good, doctor. Practicing your bedside manner
again?"
"Yes, Captain. I found the phrase under the heading
'Null-terms: optimistic.' Did I use it appropriately?"
I hid a smile.
"Perfectly, doctor. I'll pass it on to Mr. Neelix. I'll
also tell him we won't make any final decision until the
results are in and we've conferred with both of you."
"Very good, Captain. Captain, if I may ask... how much
hope should I place in this possibility?"
"The results, while inconclusive, are promising.
Seriously, doctor, we've only found the one planet so far,
and until we get there..."
"I understand. 'Insufficient evidence.' A common
condition at the moment. Will that be all?"
I nodded.
"Yes. You can go back to your tests now. Janeway out."
Chakotay was rolling his jago cup, watching the sediment
swirl in the bottom of the cup. He looked up once I was
done, then back down into the cup.
"Sorry."
"What?"
" I'm usually better than that. Sorry I couldn't offer
you more than the one world."
It brought me up cold.
"Commander, under the circumstances one world is a
miracle." I shook my head. "I wasn't sure we'd find any."
"We have the entire Delta Quadrant on file in there
somewhere. Enough information to have Kilpatrick drooling.
Under the circumstances one world seems like small
potatoes."
"One may be all we need."
He just gave a twisted grimace.
I put a hand on his, waited for him to meet my eyes.
"Commander, you can't find what isn't there... and you can't
make what is there jump through hoops when no-one has had
the time to sort it and compile it. Certainly not in under
three hours. Even in a well organized archive a thorough
search can take weeks."
His eyes drifted away from me to a corner of the room. He
drew his hand away smoothly enough that I wasn't sure if he
was trying to escape the contact, or just needed to rub the
back of his neck. In either case he was pulling away into
himself, curling up where I couldn't reach him. Not as
shaken as he'd been after Egypt; but still, something was
wrong.
"Damn."
He turned back to me, startled. "What?"
"I could ask the same. Chakotay, or Peshewa, or Joseph,
or whatever the hell would make you feel like I gave more
than a regulation damn, you are worrying me. You've just
done a hard job well, and you're acting like you failed a
major mission. Could you kindly tell me what's going on?"
His face went stubborn and set, and I knew I wasn't
getting any answers. "I'm just tired."
"Chakotay, I know that the baby, and Kes... You never
really said anything after Seska died. If you need someone
to talk to..."
His mouth went hard. "It happened. It's over. I dealt
with it then. Now I'm just ..." He met my eyes, tense and
frustrated. "Leave it. All right? I just need a bit of
rest."
That was about as convincing as Tom claiming he didn't
have designs on Jenny Delaney, or that he hated pool. I
felt like snarling, but pushed it down. The last thing I
needed was to set him off further; not when we were still
trying to work out the dynamics of the "New Command Order".
I slapped the coffee cup down on the desk, glad it was
empty.
"In that case, schedule yourself some down-time. Spend a
day or two running something pleasant on the holodeck, go to
the story circle... *something* relaxing. And get some
sleep. And consider that a direct order. The holodoctor
has enough to worry about without you pushing yourself into
exhaustion."
The room was silent as Chakotay closed and disconnected
his terminal, and I logged off and closed down for the
night. I collected our cups in silence, I disposed of them
in silence. I wished I could shake him in silence.
Dignity, Kathryn. Remember your dignity. Remember his
dignity. I do Yankee Lady very well. A good blend of old
New England blood and Lace-curtain Irish. Good hygiene, a
stiff spine, and an inquiring mind. Unfortunately that sort
of thing isn't much good when you're trying to find your way
through someone else's feelings blind, without smashing into
something. It's even less use when you're in a mood to
navigate with a bit of an eye to smashing into everything in
sight. I'm told B'Elanna throws things. It sounds good
sometimes. He didn't look at me as he finished the last of
the close down.
"Anything else?"
"No. You can consider yourself off duty, not that
officially you weren't hours ago. I'm afraid *I* have to go
talk to Neelix."
He gathered up the terminal, tucked it under his arm, and
stood there a moment, staring at the surface of the desk.
Then *he* sighed. "Want backup?"
Hell, yes, I wanted backup. I'd have given my pips for
backup, though I've got to admit, under the circumstances,
given the Delta Quadrant, I'd think the less of anyone crazy
enough to *take* my pips. But Chakotay was already ragged.
"You're certainly welcome, Commander. But Neelix at his
best isn't exactly your favorite person on board ship."
"I'll live."
Part of me wanted to jump at his offer. Part of me wanted
to wrap him up and ship him off to his bed like he was
six... lord knows, I felt like someone ought to be looking
after him. Finally I just nodded.
"So long as you know we're going to be getting a preview
of purgatory. "

My evaluation of the situation was, if anything, overly
optimistic. Purgatory looked good after that interview.
When we got there and rang the doorchime there was no answer
at first. I identified us, and got an answer back.
"Go away."
Chakotay and I exchanged glances. I tried again.
"Mr. Neelix, we've come to discuss Kes with you. Would
you let us in?"
"She's dead, isn't she? Don't spare me. I can take it.
You don't have to soften the blow."
"Mr. Neelix, she isn't dead. We do need to have a talk
with you, and I think we'd all be happier if we don't have
to have it shouting in over a comm link. Could you *please*
let us in?"
He didn't answer for a moment, and I found myself
wondering if I was going to have to run a command override
on his security lock. Just about the time I was ready to
start 'punching my way through', the door opened, and we
were met by the less than decorative sight of a Talaxian in
full, all-out breakdown.
"So tell me the worst. That electronic monster's killed
my beautiful Kes, hasn't he? Oh, I *knew* she should never
have trusted him... I *knew* it. I told her and I told her:
'you just can't trust him to know what's *best* for you, my
dumpling'. First it was tests, and then it was hormones and
then it was suppressing this and suppressing that. What I
say is it's all well and good to have a hologram as your
doctor, but when it comes right down to it you want to see
someone who knows what it is to feel sick *without* having
to run a special program to get the idea."
He went on, chattering in that vein, nervously pacing
around the room, and it would have been as annoying as his
monologues usually are if it hadn't been so clear that he
was terrified of what we'd come to tell him, and barely an
inch away from tears. I glanced at Chakotay, who looked
almost as ill as Neelix, cleared my throat, and began.

I've spent worse evenings in my life. Most of them out
here in the Delta Quadrant, now I think of it. But this one
rated close to absolute zero on the scale from 'awful' to
'worth committing suicide before experiencing'. It took
over half an hour just to make it clear to him that we
weren't planning on murdering her outright. Once he had it
down he went into hysterics over the possible risks, and
only slowly accepted that there were almost no risks greater
than just letting things run as they were. I was just
getting ready to take up the issue of Abbyzh-dira, when the
dam finally broke. He'd been shaking his head, and
muttering over the incompetence of a doctor who made a mess
of a simple thing like pregnancy, when the tears began,
first a drizzle; then sick, gasping sobs.

[Paul & Michelle]

It seems sort of dangerous to me to compare Chakotay on Voyager to an old
stereotype of idealized womanhood, then claim that gender is irrelevant
and "wife" is being used in some broader sense. The guy I saw in that
episode is the same guy I've seen on Voyager pretty much all along--the
one who genuinely DOESN'T give in to anger just because he has cause,
which I don't find implausible because there are many people like that in
the world, and it makes sense to me that he would be one of them--someone
who could shun the Starfleet uniform on principle and wear it again on
principle, whose sense of people and community is much stronger than his
sense of personal pride, who knows that working in a bureaucracy like
Starfleet or a renegade structure like the Maquis has the pitfalls of a
certain level of repressiveness and failure to consider alternative
viewpoints at crucial moments. The only person I've ever seen Chakotay
really angry at is himself, so I found it totally consistent in "Basics"
that he was frustrated rather than angry and Janeway had to make him
confront his feelings about the child, a problem he was willing to run
away from, and I even found it consistent--though VERY disturbing--that he
didn't say a word in defense of Tuvix before Janeway executed him.

So as for how Chakotay treated Janeway in "Resolutions"...apart from the
logic of the fact that he took on the traditional housekeeping role
because, as the scientist, she NEEDED to be doing research 12 hours a day
if they were to have any real hope of leaving the planet, I thought he was
acting very much as someone who'd experienced a loss somewhat analogous to
what she was going through (the loss of her ship) and he assumed that,
since she DIDN'T have the distractions and support system he had on
Voyager when he lost his own ship, she was going to need to know that she
could trust him completely. I know most people interpreted their getting
stranded together as an idyll, but I expect that when the reality of the
situation really sank in for Janeway--a point she didn't seem to have
reached, planting tomatoes and planning expeditions at the end of the
episode--she would go through a period of profound mourning. (This is the
best reason I can think of to assume they never made love while they were
stuck on the planet; they both knew that there was a lot they HADN'T
worked through.) But as far as they knew, they were stuck there forever.
The last thing I'd expect Chakotay to dwell on in such a situation would
be recriminations about things which bothered him about Janeway,
personally or as a commanding officer. I can't really imagine that
ANYTHING thus far would bring him to the level of resentment he's reached
in Peg's stories, but those are alternate universe--I have never gotten
the feeling that he holds grudges or lets things build up--you may
hypothesize that it would have if you were him, or that the writers of the
show would be creating a more familiar stereotype of a rebel warrior if it
did, but we haven't been shown anything of the sort on the series.

And I don't think Chakotay's any less of a character just because he's NOT
the self-absorbed, righteous, macho independent spirit of "Maneuvers."
There's no way one can criticize him for being written as a traditional
"wife" stereotype and then say it's not a gender issue. We've ALL been
taught to be contemptuous of people who are genuinely nurturers, to see
that as weakness rather than strength. Chakotay doesn't rock the boat
because he genuinely believes that he's better off and the crew is better
off if he demonstrates loyalty to Janeway and even Tuvok, even when
they're wrong, even when they should know to listen to him. It's a
different model of a first officer than we had on the other Trek series,
but then they're in a very different situation in the Alpha Quadrant. He
speaks up when he thinks something of crucial importance is being
overlooked. But when it's merely his own ego or image that's in question,
he's consistently deferred to Janeway's wishes; "Investigations" made
sense to me because of how he acted from "Parallax" on. That character
intrigues me much more than someone who's a contrary just to be a
contrary, even though it might make for better tension in terms of
superficial dramatic story arc. And if that's going to get me accused of
being one of those women who just wants the roles reversed to see the men
punished, tough shit--I'm not willing to accept our century's status quo
for the 24th.

Michelle

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* tig...@cais.cais.com/the...@aol.com *
* Home of Now Voyager, Kate Mulgrew's Official Fan Club *
* P.O. Box 34745, Bethesda, MD 20827-4745 *
* JANEWAY/CHAKOTAY '96! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[CBrownJC]

Michelle--

You Go Girl! :D

CB

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"When your only reallity is a illusion, then illusion *is* a
reallity."
--Fear (The Clown); ST: Voyager
*
*
"All the lonely people/where do they all come from? All the loney

people/where do they all belong?"
--from "Elenore Rigby" by, John Lennon and Paul McCartney
*
*
"Push the button Frank."/"I *am* the button."
--Dr. Clayton Forrester and TV's Frank; MST3K

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[Macedon]

In article <tigger-2705...@tigger.cais.com>, tig...@cais.com (Paul &

Michelle) says:
> The guy I saw in that
>episode is the same guy I've seen on Voyager pretty much all along--the
>one who genuinely DOESN'T give in to anger just because he has cause,
>which I don't find implausible because there are many people like that in

>the world....

I have never made any secret of the fact that Chakotay as I created him
in "Talking Stick" and the stories which followed, differed somewhat from
the Chakotay of the series without necessarily differing so drastically
that he no longer seemed to be the same character at all. I have also
never made a secret of why I made the changes I did. "Talking Stick"
was written out of frustration with Hollywood Plastic Injun, and also
out of frustration with the ways both Chakotay and Tuvok have been
presented on the show. I wrote it to give a native voice to a native
character. I believe (and Peg is free to correct me) that Peg wrote
"Circle" also out of some frustration with the portrayal of Janeway,
in addition to any desire to "answer" my original story.

Others are, naturally, free to disagree, but they probably won't like
reading this series either. ;> To quote Mark Twain, "It's a difference
of opinion which makes horse races." And which makes fanfic.

Macedon

[Pegeel]

Michelle, I'm going to quote myself here. You have chosen to see the word
"wife", and ignored the context I worked rather hard to give it, seeing
only gender issues where I was trying to indicate universal ethical
issues. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the question of gender
has very little meaning if it isn't about a justice that surpasses gender.
So here goes.

In my "About", I said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The gist of it
is that *anyone* would want a wife... a perfect,
subservient, loving, worshipful being who placed your wants
and needs above their own, did everything in their power to
smooth your way, set their own needs and pains aside, and
achieved absolute fulfilment through their association with
you-glorious-you. It's a tempting fantasy. What made the
essay brilliant was its humor... and the clear, and gently
demonstrated truth that such a role was dehumanizing. More
than any person could fulfill without destroying their own
ego. More than any human could really live up to. Anyone
would love to have a wife... until they stopped to realize
that all that selfless giving means just that... "selfless".
You'd have to hollow yourself out like a Russian Easter egg
to live up to the expectations of perfect "wifeness".>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As I have written you elsewhere, I don't give a hoot about the role in
terms of division of labor, and I'm delighed to see Chak as a nurturer.
If he cooks, cleans, mends, sews, and makes a home, that is no problem.
Flower arrangements are fine, needle point is an option. Hell, if he wants
to carry a baby to term and be its primary care giver, I don't mind that
either. None of that would matter to me one way or another... if anything
I really liked the blend of gender-assumed activities they gave the two in
the episode. What *bothers* me is that the thesis of the episode seemed
to me to be that the only reason that Chak was acceptable to Janeway as a
lover/spouse/partner was hidden in the aspect of the "ancient tribal
story" in which he more or less proclaims that in serving under her he has
erased all his angers and personal problems, like a good dose of Bliss;
that he has found true peace in setting her wants and needs exclusively
above his own; and that he will do anything and everything possible to
make her happy... because that makes him happier than anything.

In other words he's denied himself and his own needs... and, boy, is he
a happy camper now. As a result of this glorious self immolation Kathryn
Janeway is ready to blear up, sniffle, and hold hands. But *only* when
he's the last man on the planet, and *only* after he's been busting butt
for a year to be a far better first officer than she had any right to
expect, and *only* after he says "I just love doing everything to make
*you* happy.... don't worry about me, I'll just sit here and make things
*nice* for you...".

Worse, the PTB seem to have held that this was *good*.

I thought I had made pretty clear that I distrust this thesis... And I
thought I had made reasonably clear that it was this aspect of "wifeness'
that perturbed me, and which I didn't like seeing espoused as a postive
basis for a relationship. I thought I also made reasonably clear that if
they allowed Chakotay to develop further next season, a lot of my
objections would go away. Anyone can start with a silly, overly dramatic,
wild entry point in a courtship. Lord, I've even had a fella say my eyes
were like blue pools... with a straight face. If the PTB make the whole
thing merely one step in a continuing courtship rite, and allow Chakotay
more latitude for normal human selfishness, and need, and *still* have
Kathryn value him, then I'll be pretty comfortable.

If the "denial of self" becomes the permanent basis for the relationship,
if that is presented as a good and desirable thing, or if Kathryn
continues to look like the only thing she really values in him is that
self effacement I will be disturbed. As I said above, it is very tempting
for individuals of either gender to daydream about a "perfect" spouse, who
wants nothing more than to worship, adore, and serve. The daydream in
itself is pretty human. Lord know's I've had it plenty of times myself.
But to demand that, or to value our loved ones only to the degree that
they are able to supress themselves for us, is a pretty cheap and
self-centered kind of love, and one that indicates that we value our
lovers only to the degree to which they actually cease to be individuals,
and become undifferentiated slaves to our needs and whims. And for one of
my favorite shows to *endorse* that kind of self-denial, and build it into
a central relationship as a positive point.... heaven forbid!

One of the things I tried hard to approximate in "Raisins and Almonds" was
the start of a relationship based on parity and reciprocity. I'm sure I
failed in many ways, but I tried to depict two people who were equally
flawed, equally needy, equally strong, equally nurturing... I tried to
play them off in such a way that each balanced the other, making mistakes,
getting things right, giving way at certain points... I was hobbled in
this a bit. It is the nature of fiction that the protagonist be the one
to undergo the greatest and most obvious changes... which led to Janeway
loosing a few more rounds than Chakotay, and accepting a bit more
nurturing than he did in this tale... but the advantage of a chain is that
I have some hope that by the time Macedon and I are done it will have
evened out.

The *difference* between what I attemtped, and what the show has
consistently portrayed, is that the PTB seem to feel that Kathryn need
only be her darling, bristly , stubborn, not quite trusting self... and
Chakotay shall give, and give, and give, without damned much in the way of
reciprocity. He'll never be allowed to be seriously angry, or frustrated,
even when he has cause to be pissed as hell. He'll never be allowed to be
lonely, or have doubts about the woman who so clearly has had doubts about
him. Blind love, blind faith, blind worship. And now it appears that he's
actually supposed to have achieved some kind of amatory Nirvana because he
is so self effacing. That aspect of "wifeness" is *not* a matter of
gender, but of justice. NO-ONE regardless of gender should have to be the
eternal giver, the eternal looser, the eternal submissive. Certainly
no-one should be written as delighting in that role, endorsing it, winning
love because they are willing to play to that kind of submissiveness...
not if that portayal implies that this is good. And I hold absolutely
that, if such a "win" is achieved, *somewhere* someone should indicate
that this is *not* a positive resolution to life. As the PTB seem to
think that this is just ducky, and a fine thing to do to the two
characters, I'm choosing to be the one to raise a hand, and state an
ethical objection or two.

I'm not saying you can't argue all day long that there are precendents in
the show allowing that trait to be an aspect of Chakotay's personality...
I'm also not saying I want to see Chakotay portrayed as a greedy,
self-centered, power hungry SOB with an agenda, a plan, and a real mad on
with the world. Macho isn't my cup of tea any more than yours. But now
is the time to try to argue for what each of us see as justice, and strong
relationships... and *I* don't see the "He gives her everything, she is
gracious enough to accept his gift" arrangement as being all that great...
and I percive the "I just love to serve you. In putting your needs about
my own I have found happiness and my true place in life" as dehumanizing
regardless of the age, race, or gender of the individual. Period. You can
write it as a consistent character trait... you can even give it its
positive side effects... but it is still voluntary ego-destruction
disguised as love and Nirvana.
Peg

[Paul & Michelle]

I'm going to quote myself too, since I see that what I said was either not
clear or considered irrelevant...

I didn't get any more or less of a perspective on Chakotay's personal
devotion to Janeway in Resolutions than I did from many other
episodes--37s, Twisted, Deadlock, Dreadnought, to name a very few. And I
sure as HELL didn't get any thesis about the only good lover being one who
will throw all his own needs and fears aside for Kathryn Janeway or anyone
else. We disagree very strongly on what his role is and should be on the
ship, and that's a separate issue from the question of their relationship
as people, but I think it needs to be addressed. Chakotay's NOT Janeway's
equal, in terms of command--he doesn't have her experience or tactical
ability, and he knows it, and he has consistently deferred to her NOT
because he's passive or masochistic but because a large part of his job as
first officer is to know when NOT to question her--like Riker with Picard,
like Spock with Kirk. I don't think it's progressive in terms of command
or personal relationships to suggest that they have to be IDENTICAL on all
levels in their abilities and interests to be equals.

If I saw a Chakotay who was resorting to passive-aggresive, submissive
behavior because he resented Janeway wanting him to obey her values, I
might agree that she was being insensitive to his personal needs even if I
thought she was right in terms of what's best for the ship--since the
blame for everything falls squarely on her shoulders (go read the "Basics"
criticisms if you doubt that people pin EVERYTHING on Janeway, even
mistakes made by Tuvok and Torres). But he's never been passive--when
he's cared about something he considered important, from making B'Elanna
chief engineer to no tricorders among the dead to not baiting the creature
in Elogium, he's said so and she's listened except when it's been a
violation not only of her own principles, but of the oath everyone on her
ship who is not Maquis took when they became Starfleet officers and which
presumably the Maquis officers tacitly agreed to when they accepted field
commissions. In "Resolutions," Janeway made getting off the planet a
number one priority--admittedly we never heard her ask Chakotay if that
was OK with him. Nonetheless, he WASN'T submissive to her desires--if
anything, he kept trying to force his world view on her. He dumped the
"Give up, live and let live, enjoy life day to day" speech on her at least
three times--at the start when he asked whether she really thought she was
capable of finding a cure, when he gave the "Even the eagle knows when to
sleep" speech about why she should walk away from her research, and when
he told her he was focused on making a home because that was how he needed
to live, with the suggestion that she should consider giving up yet
AGAIN. If that's submission, then she must have far higher standards of
tolerance than I do, because it would have bothered the shit out of me if
I were focused on a goal--getting us out of there--and the guy I was with
was prodding me to accept his reality instead.

Chakotay rather looked like he was doing things he LIKED to do--working
with his hands, building things, cooking. He obviously takes to the role
of provider, as we've seen play in it on the ship for other crewmembers.
He wasn't going to wait years to see if Janeway eventually decided she'd
rather have a headboard than a cure for their illness; he went ahead
anticipating one version of the future while she worked for another.
Let's face it, as a non-scientist he was out of the loop, and I never
heard him ask if she needed or wanted help with her insect traps even
though she went out of the way to tell him her latest scientific ideas as
if he could be an equal contributor to them--even when she was lounging in
the tub.

But since I DID talk about this in terms of the use of "wife" as a
gendered term, I might as well add that I thought Chakotay's interest in
housework was very gratifying, an indication that he thinks traditional
"women's work" is important and valuable. His doing the things they both
needed for basic survival and comfort did NOT make me see him as a
masochistic self-sacrificer. What he did was set up a division of labor
that he was happy with, since he wasn't much use on the scientific front.
There's nothing repressive about assisting someone who is doing work you
know little about, but care greatly about, by doing the domestic tasks you
both need to have done.

And there was *NOTHING* in that episode to indicate that any of Chakotay's
work, or so-called passive attitude, was the reason J responded to him.
In fact, Janeway was very clearly NOT thrilled with him making headboards
or cooking for her; the show made VERY clear that she thought he was
frittering away time and energy rather than focusing on the goal of
getting cured. What she responded to was not backrubs and sweet-talk, but
to a man who took the risk of telling her he loved her and had all along
even though he KNEW she had other things on her mind--someone she'd never
properly mourned for back on Earth, the loss of a job which she adored,
fear for her crew, etc. Of course there's a lot left unresolved between
them, episode title notwithstanding: I don't imagine that Seska's total
absence from his life took the scars of his relationship with her away, I
don't imagine that sooner or later Janeway wouldn't have asked Chakotay
how he could have joined an organization that could have started an
interplanetary war, I don't imagine that sooner or later Chakotay wouldn't
have asked Janeway what in hell she thought Starfleet was thinking when
they signed the DMZ treaty in the first place. But those things are a
VERY long way from where they were on New Earth, and there was no reason
to assume that he'd have to work out every ideological difference or
command argument they'd ever had before he'd want to be intimate with her
on a variety of levels, especially since the situations in which any
conflicts between them arose were gone from their lives.

In that context, I thought Janeway's wanting to define parameters between
them made total sense--SHE thought they had some things to work through
before leaping into bed with the only man alive who was of course looking
very good to her at that moment, but let's face it, when you have
literally one friend in the world, casual sex with that person can be a
VERY dangerous thing. Her caution was self-protective, not at all aimed
to hurt or belittle his feelings, and he knew that, and responded in
kind. I assume Chakotay thought she was mistaking his affection for
attraction, and that's why he worded the Angry Warrior speech the way he
did--not an aggressive "I want to be your lover," which was already clear,
but "I love you, and I don't need to share your bed to be happy being with
you." Adding an "Oh, but by the way, you were really a bitch two months
ago during that incident with Tuvok" would hardly have been necessary,
relevant, or satisfying for either of them. They have the rest of their
lives to nitpick. I'd call his behavior strength in the face of
temptation, not passivity, and THAT'S what she reached out to--the fact
that he wasn't going to turn into some angry, pleading, creature who was
going to lay all his own needs at her feet, the very epitome of a
caricature of male weakness.

[Paul & Michelle]

Premature posting syndrome... :D

I don't think "Resolutions" is in any way a perfect episode, or even a
perfect J/C episode. Like all Trek, it was 52 rushed minutes of imperfect
character and story development--Tuvok bore the brunt of the poor writing
decisions--with internal inconsistency and some goofiness, like Janeway
playing maternal with a monkey. But I still LIKE the canonical universe.
I don't want to watch an alternate Chakotay with a chip on his shoulder
every week; that guy might be interesting, but he's not the character I've
been watching for two years on the show. And I just plain don't see the
Janeway Peg sees who's insensitive to Chakotay on either a command or a
personal level, except at isolated moments like in "Investigations," but
that's what makes her human, and I didn't find it inconsistent that
Chakotay would have let that drop any more than I expected him to sulk
about not being consulted about how to punish Tuvok after Sikarius. I'm
not trying to be an apologist for Janeway--I agree wholeheartedly with
everyone who said she should have been courtmartialed if not tried for
murder in "Tuvix," and the passivity of the ENTIRE crew in that episode
was appalling, while she sat and stared out the window instead of
researching legal precedent or convening some sort of hearing.

But in terms of her relationship with Chakotay, Janeway's never done
anything which I didn't think could be justified in terms of their command
and crew relationship. Starfleet places certain restrictions upon its
senior staff, and Kirk didn't consult Spock on every decision in first
season TOS--hey, he INsulted Spock a great deal in the early episodes, and
Picard just plain ignored Riker. Let's face it, Chakotay's been a lousy
commander in some episodes--"Persistence of Vision" springs to mind,
though the entire crew looked pretty bad in that one--and he brought
people like Seska, Suder, Jonas, even Hogan onto Janeway's ship. Imagine
if she'd gone along with Chakotay and Hogan in "Alliances" instead of
waiting for them to come around--they'd be in the same position as at the
end of this season, only a lot sooner! In terms of Chakotay's
professional relationship with Janeway, I see a guy who's trying to learn
because she's so good at what she does, which is not the same thing as
trying to erase himself and his skills. She's been open to his
suggestions and his abilities when they haven't been used in a way which
directly contradicts her own principles, like "Maneuvers," and he seems
increasingly to give the kinds of orders Riker always did concerning
security and weapons, which would certainly indicate to me that she trusts
him and he doesn't have big issues with that.

I liked "Raisins and Almonds" a lot, thought the writing was really
superb, but I felt like I was reading about an entirely different starship
on which some of the characters happened to share the same names as the
Voyager crew, and a few of their experiences felt superficially familiar.
I'm not willing to chuck Paramount's version wholesale--and obviously,
since they're still writing about their universe, neither are Peg and Joe.

[Macedon]

In article <tigger-2905...@tigger.cais.com>, tig...@cais.com (Paul &
Michelle) says:

>I liked "Raisins and Almonds" a lot, thought the writing was really
>superb, but I felt like I was reading about an entirely different starship
>on which some of the characters happened to share the same names as the
>Voyager crew, and a few of their experiences felt superficially familiar.
>I'm not willing to chuck Paramount's version wholesale--and obviously,
>since they're still writing about their universe, neither are Peg and Joe.

Joe is not willing to chuck it, however Joe would most assuredly like
to chuck certain aspects of it and wishes to hell they'd hire a native
consultant.

I think I simply have a different take on the presentations of Janeway and
Chakotay in the series than Michelle seems to, and that's reflected in the
fanfic I've done for Voyager. Fanfic is basically an attempt to alleviate
frustration. We use it to tell the stories we'd like to see done but
haven't been, or to "fix" a problem, or to run with an idea the series
itself is unlikely to address or deal with in full. Occasionally fanfic
simply borrows the basic universe to tell a story wholly unrelated to
any series: the joys of writing SF without the effort of worldbuilding.
There are a some exceptions to the above. "Orfeo" would probably number
among them as it was a response to someone (humerously) throwing down a
literary gauntlet; "T'Kuht Rising" was a stylistic game loosely inspired
by Leslie Silko's CEREMONY.

But fanfic is all about different viewpoints. That's cool. I have no
wish to get into a flamewar over interps of an episode, especially not
in a.s.c. Suffice to say I would disagree with Michelle's interpretation.
If I agreed with it, I wouldn't be writing anything in the first place.
My father used to yell at me, "Joe, if you bellyache, you'd damn well
better be prepared to offer an alternative." My fanfic is, so to speak,
an alternative. ;>

Macedon

[Paul & Michelle]

In article <96151.01...@psuvm.psu.edu>, Macedon <JR...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:

> But fanfic is all about different viewpoints. That's cool. I have no
> wish to get into a flamewar over interps of an episode, especially not
> in a.s.c.

I'd never argue with the statement that fanfic is all about presenting
alternate viewpoints. What bothers me is when people post fanfic
following diatribes about shows which most of us in this newsgroup like
pretty strongly or we wouldn't be here, with statements implying that if
we enjoy the show as it is, we're bad judges of characterization, we can't
tell real love from romantic silliness, we're accepting pat storylines
instead of real drama. It's not uncommon for me to read a piece of fanfic
which strikes me as better Trek than I see on television any given week.
But it's very difficult for me to ENJOY a piece of fanfic when a writer
has presented me with an either-or: either I can accept the garbage on the
boob tube, or I can come into that writer's private version of that
universe and be enlightened. That's not an enjoyable choice to be given,
and it tends to diminish my enthusiasm for the fanfic itself.

>Joe is not willing to chuck it, however Joe would most assuredly like
>to chuck certain aspects of it and wishes to hell they'd hire a native
>consultant.

Actually, Voyager has a N/A consultant, and I guarantee you've heard of
him. He has specifically asked that his name remain unconnected with the
series in any way, because he's positive that hundreds of Native Americans
who have different customs, rituals, and degrees of involvement with their
cultures would lambast him for the admittedly hokey, watered down images
presented on Voyager. In fan fiction, one has infinite time and space to
develop Chakotay; in the course of perhaps three 52-minute episodes per
season which also have to include certain Trek staples, the show's writers
do not have the same luxury. Fan writers can choose to ignore, say, Harry
and Neelix if they think they're uninteresting as characters; the
producers of Star Trek do not have the same luxury, since they're aiming
for the broadest possible audience.

[Macedon]

In article <tigger-3005...@tigger.cais.com>, tig...@cais.com (Paul &
Michelle) says:

>In article <96151.01...@psuvm.psu.edu>, Macedon <JR...@psuvm.psu.edu> :
>wrote:

>>Joe is not willing to chuck it, however Joe would most assuredly like
>>to chuck certain aspects of it and wishes to hell they'd hire a native
>>consultant.

>Actually, Voyager has a N/A consultant, and I guarantee you've heard of
>him. He has specifically asked that his name remain unconnected with the
>series in any way, because he's positive that hundreds of Native Americans
>who have different customs, rituals, and degrees of involvement with their
>cultures would lambast him for the admittedly hokey, watered down images
>presented on Voyager. In fan fiction, one has infinite time and space to
>develop Chakotay; in the course of perhaps three 52-minute episodes per
>season which also have to include certain Trek staples, the show's writers
>do not have the same luxury. Fan writers can choose to ignore, say, Harry
>and Neelix if they think they're uninteresting as characters; the
>producers of Star Trek do not have the same luxury, since they're aiming
>for the broadest possible audience.

Point #1) The problem is not with specific *details* that differ from culture
to culture. That's a given. The problem lies with a general approach. Many
of my complaints center around sins of *ommission*, not commission. One kudo
I will give to Beltran...he "acts" like an Indian. Body language, gesture,
etc. I believe him. He's done his homework. But that's the contribution
of a good actor, not the creators. Some episodes, and particular points in
episodes, have been rather nice. I *liked* "Tattoo." I didn't care for the
anthropology in it, or the linguistics. The former had my fiancee howling,
the latter had me howling. But it was very "Indian" in small things: the
attitude about Chakotay leaving the tribe, etc. It reflected the basic
understanding of an Indian worldview which I have found *missing* in much
else. But it felt like an isolated event, not the contribution of a
consultant. If they have a consultant, they aren't using him often, or
well. Which brings me to point #2....

#2) Your comment that fanfic allows more latitude to develop a character
than a TV series is, bluntly, nonsense. First, fanfic isn't infinite.
Writers don't have time to write infinite amounts of fiction. I've
written fewer stories focusing on Chakotay than he's had episodes. Second,
it's not *quantity* which matters anyway, but *quality*. It's NOT
essential that one include lots of details. What makes it good (or not)
is how well-chosen the details ARE, and how correct. If one doesn't want
"hokey, watered-down images" then don't *do* them. They aren't required.

It's quite possible to flesh-out a character in a series in a believable
fashion with brief scenes done on a consistent basis. But that requires
some measure of intentionality and a guiding hand behind the scenes to
read scripts and catch boo-boos or add suggestions, "At X point, ____
could/should say _________." So if TPTB have a native consultant, they
aren't using him as they should. I'm going to assume that's their fault,
not his. *Everything* written for Chakotay should go across his desk
first. Yeah, that's a big committment. But that's what it would take to
get it right, and I believe in practicing the art of getting it right for
ANYthing, not just what has to do with Indians. I have absolutely *no*
patience for authors who take on historicals, but read only a few books of
popular history and think they've done their homework. Same thing with
someone who takes on hard SF and never talks to experts. It all goes back
to Rule #1 for Good Writing: *Write what you know*, or research like mad.
If ST chose to create an Indian character *and make something out of his
Indianness*, then they damn well should be prepared to accept responsibility
for doing it well, not as a Hollywood gimmick to attract viewers. And I'm
afraid that's what it looks like at this point from my end. That's why I
wrote "Talking Stick" in the first place.

But back to this false division between fanfic and scriptwriting in
terms of the time it takes to accomplish characterization. The *tools*
are different. Some things can be done in fiction which can't be on
the screen--and the reverse, of course. Nevertheless, to say LOTS of
time is needed to develop a character accurately is like the writer
who needs pages and pages to "tell" us all about the characters, when
a little "show" would do neatly. Likewise with a character on a
series. It's a matter of getting reactions and exchanges *right*,
not just having a lot of them. So the notion that fanfic has liberties
to develop characters in a way TV doesn't is simply incorrect. It's
making excuses for bad treatment. It CAN be done well with a little
forethought, and hiring the right people and using them wisely, not as
a flag to wave, "Oh, yes, of *course* we hired a native consultant!"
Could have fooled me. Good stories on whatever topic should be able to
be enjoyed both by people who know nothing about it, and by people who
know a lot. NO ONE (reasonable) expects masses of details and punishing
exactitude from Voyager about matters Indian. But yes, I'd like a
better job than is currently being done. The constraints of series
work does *not* translate to an excuse for half-assed measures.

Macedon

[Beth Meenaghan]

>
>I'd never argue with the statement that fanfic is all about presenting
>alternate viewpoints. What bothers me is when people post fanfic
>following diatribes about shows which most of us in this newsgroup like
>pretty strongly or we wouldn't be here, with statements implying that if
>we enjoy the show as it is, we're bad judges of characterization, we can't
>tell real love from romantic silliness, we're accepting pat storylines
>instead of real drama.

I thought it was clear that Peg's "diatribe" was (1) a statement of her own
opinion, (2) an explanation for the basis of that opinion, and (3) an
explanation of how this has influenced her portrayel of the characters in
her own stories.

From the outside looking in, Michelle, it seems you require endorsement for
your own feelings and opinions regarding Voyager and it's characters as
portrayed on television. My point is, if you love the characters as they
are, that's great, and your opinion is every bit as valid as anyone else's.
The rest of the world doesn't have to agree with you in order to validate
how you feel. You don't need to convert Peg or anyone else in order to keep
enjoying your show!

>
>Actually, Voyager has a N/A consultant, and I guarantee you've heard of
>him. He has specifically asked that his name remain unconnected with the
>series in any way, because he's positive that hundreds of Native Americans
>who have different customs, rituals, and degrees of involvement with their
>cultures would lambast him for the admittedly hokey, watered down images
>presented on Voyager.

I hope this isn't meant to be a defense of this person! For me, if a
persons work isn't good enough to proudly put their name on it, why bother
doing it.

Beth

[10332...@compuserve.com]

[Nyani-Iisha Martin]

[interesting discussion between two fascinating people read and pondered]

We don't have to choose, do we? Choose between Chakotays, Voyagers,
universes, views?

Star Trek:Voyager makes my Mondays, even when I'm stressing about my paper
due Tuesday or screaming "It's a TRAP!" at the TV screen. Finding one of
Peg and Macedon's amazing stories (or Carolyn Fulton's, or many others')
gives me nothing but pleasure, unless I don't have time to read the story.
I love both worlds, the TV show canon and the fanfic cycles, and I've come
to not expect them to be the same, and when it's explicitly stated that
they aren't, to even enjoy the differences.

There are people in my life who could describe me to each other and not
know they were discussing the same girl; I know I'm not unusual in this
regard. One of my friends thinks this is a bad thing, that she wants
everyone to see her the same way, but I think it's a neutral thing, an
artifact of being a many-sided person. If there is room for several
different ideas of the same person to exist, there is definetely also
room for several different conceptions of the same character, isn't there?

Ny Martin

_________________________________________________
Nyani-Iisha F. Martin nfma...@fas.harvard.edu
"How about this: let's work for a few more hours, then
go back to your room and count each other's spots."
-------Jadzia Dax, "Meridian"

[Catie]

Dear Peg,

Of all the commentary I have read on "Resolutions" the discussion between y
you and Michelle has been the most thought-provoking for me.
(Please forgive mistakes I make here -- I am just learning to use this
machine! - margins etc. are not so easy)

I have some comments and an observation about the symbolic "Angry
Warrior" story :

Comments: I don't believe that when Chakotay said "her needs would come
first" in his "Angry Warrior" story , that he was proposing to make himself a
doormat (or "perfect wife") and thereby give permission to Janeway to walk
all over him. I think his story's message to her had two components -- first,
that within the context of Voyager he had decided that for the good of
himself and everyone else, he would support Janeway's position as captain
and her decisions, once made (reserving the right to question them of
course, -- or object -- along the way).I don't find his attitude a position of
weakness, but rather a position of strength -- it would be weakness if he
*couldn't* do anything else, but as a man of insight and independence, he
*consciously* made his decision to support Janeway and then followed it
through.

(Also I think he's smart enough to realize that Janeway's personality would
make it extremely unlikely that she would take advantage of his position,
and in fact she doesn't -- for example, in Basics, she makes him reconsider
his original decision not to seek out his child because he believes that
doing so would put the ship at risk. In this instance, her best interest as
Captain would be in leaving the child behind, but instead she puts his
possible need above her own.)

The second component of the Angry Warrior story is on the personal level.
I think that when Chakotay said "her needs would come first" that he was
also telling Janeway that in his behavior *at this point* in their relationship
he would be guided by her needs for love/companionship rather than his
own, thus giving her the space and freedom to make the decision that he
hopes for. This makes sense. She is carrying a great deal more emotional
baggage than he is (her love for Mark, her desire to return home,
her position as Captain and all its ramifications) and she has more to
overcome in order to be open to a relationship with Chakotay. Again, I find
this a position of strength -- Chakotay would be showing weakness if he
insisted on his own needs at the expense of her feelings (and besides, even
if it worked, it wouldn't be very satisfactory for either of them).

Now for the observation: I think that Chakotay, when coming aboard
Voyager and making his decision to support Janeway, had unwittingly
stumbled across the resolution to the conflict felt by rampant individualists
who blindly seek to have their own way at the expense of their nearest and
dearest. What I mean is that I've observed many people who think in terms
of "my viewpoint, my wishes, my desires, my rights, my career, my lovelife,
etc. etc." and who relentlessly pursue these goals ignoring the
consequences to those around them. In a social species such as Homo
sapiens (??), this attitude is prescription for unhappiness, waste of energy
in conflict, and often failure in obtaining the goals. I don't think that the
"contrary" Chakotay had realized his goals -- remember he says that the
Angry Warrior had only found peace in forgetting himself in battle up to
this point.

I think that in the ongoing story Chakotay has come to the
realization that by making his goal the welfare of something larger
than himself (the crew and their mission home) and the welfare of someone
outside himself (Janeway - and by the way, this would be my definition of
real love - agape - a very important PART of a solid basis for relationship),
Chakotay has freed up all his creativity (some of which was previously
spent in conflict with others) and is well on his way to becoming the man he
ultimately wants to be.

I didn't mean to ramble on this much, but hope you find some merit in what
I'm trying to say...

Yours truly,

Catie Clark

himself
bound to lead to both conflict and
pursue their goals

[Paul & Michelle]

In article <96151.22...@psuvm.psu.edu>, Macedon <JR...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:

> #2) Your comment that fanfic allows more latitude to develop a character
> than a TV series is, bluntly, nonsense. First, fanfic isn't infinite.
> Writers don't have time to write infinite amounts of fiction. I've
> written fewer stories focusing on Chakotay than he's had episodes. Second,
> it's not *quantity* which matters anyway, but *quality*. It's NOT
> essential that one include lots of details. What makes it good (or not)
> is how well-chosen the details ARE, and how correct. If one doesn't want
> "hokey, watered-down images" then don't *do* them. They aren't required.

Yes and no. Trek isn't a product like Babylon 5, constructed by one
creator for a narrowly-defined audience (well, Trek sometimes pretends to
advertisers that it has the latter, but the marks of the struggle between
the people who think Trek has historically been action-adventure for
younger males and the people who know that more women watched TNG than men
in the latter seasons is evident all over Voyager's writing). NOBODY has
time to write infinite amounts of fiction, but individuals who are doing
it for fun are at leisure to hold an idea until they can do substantial
research, or not post any given week (or month) at all. Over the past few
months I've seen a couple of fledgling writers scared out of posting to
this newsgroup because they DON'T know enough about Native Americans to
write about one with any degree of accuracy, and that's sad--sure, we're
all bothered when we see stereotypes of our own culture, or gender, or
politics, presented to an audience, but I don't think it's any more
productive to tell people not to talk at all about things they don't know
much about. "Write what you know" is always a problem--I can't write a
male perspective, or a gay perspective, or a Starship Captain's
perspective, based on anything more than what I've managed to absorb over
the years from what limited sources of input I have. But more than that,
BEING male or gay or a Starship Captain would not make me an expert on
those categories, just on my own experiences within them.

I'm not trying to defend the Trek writers--they have done a ROTTEN job on
character consistency, both in terms of the supposed cultural backgrounds
of the various individuals (does Harry even HAVE a culture beyond his
music and his ancient Chinese sayings?) and in terms of their behavior
from week to week. However, they are at the mercy of the producers, who
are in turn at the mercy of Paramount's budget and schedule. I wish they
had more foresight and more courage, but at the same time I don't think
there's any point in criticizing fans who accept the text they offer
rather than rewriting it in their own image.

In terms of what we do in this newsgroup, I don't see that scathing
negative criticism of the show's writers, of one another's fiction, or of
one another's tastes is very productive (except in the case of the
show-don't-tell criticism that fiction offers on the milieu from which it
arises). We all have issues which set us off--mine is the degradation of
women characters, whether by TPTB in bad episodes or by fan writers in
hurt/comfort stories. I've probably upset several people by complaining
about such issues in their stories, just as I know several fledgling
writers who are afraid to post to this newsgroup because their incomplete
portrayals of various ethnicities might earn them public complaints. Even
the writing itself is not immune to criticism. Why is it any more
acceptable to tell writers that they should focus on the centrality of one
character in any given scene (someome MUST go tell Charles Dickens about
POV whiplash), yet not to tell them that their portrayal of a character
seems off the mark? Surely there's room for all SORTS of Voyager
universes in our stories--the ones on the air, the ones which conform to
canon, the ones which deliberately work against the grain--even the ones
with ridiculous premises, mediocre characterization, and bad grammar,
without readers being told that they must choose one.

[Macedon]

In article <4oll01$4...@decaxp.HARVARD.EDU>, nfma...@scws11.harvard.edu
(Nyani-Iisha Martin) says:

>We don't have to choose, do we? Choose between Chakotays, Voyagers,
>universes, views?

I should hope not; I thought that was the point of fanfic. <g>

>There are people in my life who could describe me to each other and not
>know they were discussing the same girl; I know I'm not unusual in this
>regard. One of my friends thinks this is a bad thing, that she wants
>everyone to see her the same way, but I think it's a neutral thing, an
>artifact of being a many-sided person. If there is room for several
>different ideas of the same person to exist, there is definetely also
>room for several different conceptions of the same character, isn't there?

This is an excellent point. There are many truths, not one. Much
depends on where we are standing when we're looking. ;>

[Beth Meenaghan]

Over the past few
>months I've seen a couple of fledgling writers scared out of posting to
>this newsgroup because they DON'T know enough about Native Americans to
>write about one with any degree of accuracy, and that's sad--

We all have issues which set us off--mine is the degradation of

>women characters, whether by TPTB in bad episodes or by fan writers in
>hurt/comfort stories. I've probably upset several people by complaining
>about such issues in their stories, just as I know several fledgling
>writers who are afraid to post to this newsgroup because their incomplete
>portrayals of various ethnicities might earn them public complaints.

Are we going to do this again? "Someone did not like my story/disagreed
with my ideas/told me I got something all wrong, and therefore I will never
post to this group again because I can't deal with it. And it's all YOUR
fault!" When a writer wimps out like this, I don't think it's fair to place
the blame on anyone who dared comment on the story. It has more to do with
fragile egos. Oh, I admit readily, that getting praise on your story is a
real high, and having someone disagree with you is a real downer. We all
love to have our opinions endorsed by others, especially publically. But
when someone disagrees with our work or ideas, we've got a lot of options
rather than just not expressing them anymore, ranging from "you have a good
point and I'll take it under consideration" to "I completely disagree with
you, and will continue to write things the way i see them." It's too bad
people forget or don't realize that they can stand up to someone with an
opposing viewpoint, but it's not the fault of the person who spoke out if
that person never chooses to post here again.

Beth

*
"Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes."
*

[Macedon]

Well, there are three different issues here I want to address, but they're
mixed in together and I cannot cut and move text, so I'm going to quote
some and summarize some and hope that I do not mis-summarize Michelle.
She's welcome to correct me if I do.

In article <tigger-3105...@tigger.cais.com>, tig...@cais.com (Paul &
Michelle) says:

>In article <96151.22...@psuvm.psu.edu>, Macedon <JR...@psuvm.psu.edu> :
>wrote
>> #2) Your comment that fanfic allows more latitude to develop a character
>> than a TV series is, bluntly, nonsense. First, fanfic isn't infinite.
>> Writers don't have time to write infinite amounts of fiction. I've
>> written fewer stories focusing on Chakotay than he's had episodes. Second,
>> it's not *quantity* which matters anyway, but *quality*. It's NOT
>> essential that one include lots of details. What makes it good (or not)
>> is how well-chosen the details ARE, and how correct. If one doesn't want
>> "hokey, watered-down images" then don't *do* them. They aren't required.

>Yes and no. Trek isn't a product like Babylon 5, constructed by one

>creator for a narrowly-defined audience ... NOBODY has

>time to write infinite amounts of fiction, but individuals who are doing
>it for fun are at leisure to hold an idea until they can do substantial
>research, or not post any given week (or month) at all.

<<Summary: She goes on to say in a paragraph below that she is not trying
to defend the writers, as they've done a rotten job in consistency, but
that they are at the mercy of producers and a budget.>>

Many "specialty" shows have specialist consultants or one of the creators
is a specialist. I just heard, on NPR, an interview with the consultant
for NYPD BLUE. The difference is that, when deciding to take on a story
of this type, it's *assumed* that consultants will be needed, if accuracy
is desired. My point was that, when ST: Voyager decided to formulate an
Indian character *and make something of his Indianness*, they should have
brought in a consultant to create the character from the ground-up and to
continue to keep that character consistent across episodes. Now, had they
simply wanted to have an Indian character, but intended to make no more of
his Indianness than they made of Uhura's Bantu background, or than they
are making of Kim's Chinese background, they wouldn't need a consultant.
It was their choice to emphasize his Indian heritage which lays them open
to criticism about how they've handled it.

Constructive criticism shouldn't be confused with diatribes, which is
what you seem to have done here. If I hated "Voyager," I wouldn't watch
it and I certainly wouldn't spend time writing fanfic. But that does
not mean I'm going to watch it with my brain turned off and never make
any complaints about it. The fact that I'm Indian allows me to comment
on Chakotay's Indian presentation the same as being a scientist allows
Tim Lynch to critique the technobabble and use of science in his regular
episode reviews. If I were merely writing diatribes against the show,
I'd have nothing good to say about it and--as I've noted before--I was
fairly happy with "Tattoo." I simply haven't been happy with the general
treatment of Chakotay's Indian heritage.

So I s'pose I'm not too sure what it is about my criticisms that bother
you, if you're claiming not to be blindly defending the show. Is it that
I, an Indian, have dared to comment negatively on their presentation of
things Indian? If so, you'd better go tell Tim that he can't write
any critiques of science in his future reviews because he's a scientist.
See, it stops making sense. Were I just another AIM drumbeater, I'd be
yelling about the fact Beltran isn't registered on tribal rolls and
didn't grow up on a reservation and therefore doesn't have any business
playing an Indian, etc., etc., ad nausea.

>Over the past few
>months I've seen a couple of fledgling writers scared out of posting to
>this newsgroup because they DON'T know enough about Native Americans to

>write about one with any degree of accuracy, and that's sad--sure, we're
>all bothered when we see stereotypes of our own culture, or gender, or
>politics, presented to an audience, but I don't think it's any more
>productive to tell people not to talk at all about things they don't know
>much about. "Write what you know" is always a problem--I can't write a
>male perspective, or a gay perspective, or a Starship Captain's
>perspective, based on anything more than what I've managed to absorb over
>the years from what limited sources of input I have. But more than that,
>BEING male or gay or a Starship Captain would not make me an expert on
>those categories, just on my own experiences within them.

Well, first, "Write what you know" isn't something I made up. It's a bit
of advice given in almost any beginning writing class to writers to keep
them from getting laughed out of the room by readers.

Second, you have interpreted it in its most extreme form in order to make
a straw man out of it and knock it down. Quite *obviously*, being a member
of X group does not make one an academic expert on that group. But the
*experiences* of being X is exactly what writing is about. Writing is
not an academic exercise; it's existential. Therefore the best writing
we will do will always be about those things with which we have some
experience. A little research can sub sometimes for experience, as
long as one doesn't plan on taking it too far, or unless it's a subject
which is impossible to experience. (For instance, I've never lived in
antiquity, and neither has anyone else alive, so I gotta fly by research
when writing Greek historicals!)

The old addage stands: Write what you know or research like hell. That's
presuming of course that one is working on the craft of writing. Some
people on this newsgroup are, some aren't. That's one reason I always
*ask* people (if I don't know them) before sending critiques. I have
no objection to people writing for fun and posting here. I don't assume
everyone wants to be a published writer. ;> But those who do had best
learn that addage for their *own* health. Professional publishing is
like being thrown to the wolves. You do something stupid, you HEAR
about it...and hear about it...and hear about it. <G>

Third, re: comments above about scaring off fledgling writers and....

>In terms of what we do in this newsgroup, I don't see that scathing
>negative criticism of the show's writers, of one another's fiction, or of

>one another's tastes is very productive....just as I know several fledgling

>writers who are afraid to post to this newsgroup because their incomplete
>portrayals of various ethnicities might earn them public complaints.

I can't tell if this is a veiled accusation or not. Sounds like it. But
I don't recall ever posting ANY scathing public criticism about any aspect
of anyone's story, much less about anyone's portrayal of Indians. I do,
however, recall jumping down a few throats when others did...namingly
when it was done to Killashandra. The only story critiques which I've
ever posted publicly were done with the author's prior permission. I
don't believe in public humiliations unless someone has clearly made an
ad hominem attack, or been deliberately offensive. THEN I'll howl.

Now, about this business of fledgling writers being scared off writing
about things Indian if they don't know much about it.... As I just said,
I've never posted a single public complaint about Indians in anybody's
story, and only once have I ever dropped a private (note PRIVATE) letter
about it. And that private letter was worded as politely as I could
possibly make it. It led to a friendly exchange of emails. Hardly
scaring them off. ;> Now, am I not allowed to send comments regarding a
subject I know something about if writers have invited feedback? Would
the same objections be made if it had been, say, a point of Greek grammar,
about which I also happen to know something? Or is it the fact I'm an
Indian with the gall to comment on things Indian that seems threatening?
And if so--*why*? Hmmmm. <glancing around at self> Haven't taken any
scalps lately. I can hardly compel people, and I don't believe in email
harrassment. People are free to just ignore me if they want. ;>

If there are people here who have been "scared off," then they've been
scared off with no input from me other than the fact I dare to write about
Indians as an Indian. That's their problem, not mine. Unless of course
my mere *presence* on the group is somehow terrifying, and you'd rather
Joe went back to his corner and sat quiet and pretended to be a nice
white boy. And if that sounds bitter, it's meant to. I'm reading a
subtext here that, if Joe opens his mouth about things Indian or writes
fanfic with Indian characters, he's got an AGENDA, and that's not allowed
because it might threaten other worldviews. Well, my answer to that is
*good*. That's what my writing is about...making people think (including
myself in the writing)...and not always about things Indian. "Orfeo"
sure had no Indian characters. I'm not going to shut up and go away.
And I'm not going to stop saying people should write what they know, or
read a little first. If that makes me sound like an opinionated SOB,
well, tell me something I don't know already. <laughing> At least I
normally make an effort to be a *polite* and occasionally amusing
opinionated SOB when I do my complaining.

Tanakia,
Macedon

[schlock]

nfma...@scws11.harvard.edu (Nyani-Iisha Martin) wrote:
>[interesting discussion between two fascinating people read and pondered]

>We don't have to choose, do we? Choose between Chakotays, Voyagers,
>universes, views?

I had a terrific argument with someone on one of the Trek NGs (via e-mail,
though) over this very subject. He believed that fanfic was written
by a bunch of authors sitting around complaining, thinking that they could
do it better than the Trek writers ever could and being very pompous about
being "correct" in fixing Trek's "mistakes." This, of course, was why he
hadn't *read* any fanfic in a long time, and why he thought it was all
either Trek porn or cheesy romance. (Aside: I *like* cheesy Trek romance.
So sue me.)

I tried to direct him to this very cycle of stories over which we
are apparently having a bit of a disagreement. Somewhere along the line
I made the comment that the show's portrayal of Chakotay, for example,
could benefit a lot from taking a look at *this* portrayal of
Chakotay. Then I told him that I believe that, in my mind at least,
the characters as depicted in the show and in the fanfic have become
inextricably linked. Perhaps it is because Chakotay is given so little
to do that I think of him in terms of these stories more often than not.
The way I perceive Chakotay as a character can't have come exclusively
from the show, because he just hasn't been afforded the character
development he deserves. And I don't consider the "Native American
Rituals" episodes high character development either.

In Chakotay as I see him ideally, I see a man with conflicts, with
problems, with a past. I do not see the undefined amalgam of "Native
American" that Trek writers would evidently have us see. I think this
mental image of mine has no small part to do with stories like these.
Sometimes I catch myself wondering if he'll ever tell the story about
his first name, before I realize that was *part* of a story--a damned good
story, of course. And that's why it's become part of my own *mental*
"canon." The character who might be known as "Joseph Chakotay" or
"Peshewa" just seems a helluva lot more interesting than the guy who
sits on the bridge Monday nights at 8 PM and says "My people..." from
time to time.

Fanfic characterizations can seem to be more dead-on than the show's
characterizations are themselves, which seems like a contradiction.
Perhaps it's that what authors do with stories is extrapolate from
what we're given on the show, and expand the character as it could
logically develop (in a perfect universe without eight other regulars
to contend with, of course). For lack of depth in characterization, I
think one would mentally fill in the gaps (unconsciously perhaps) with
appropriate scenes and ideas from fanfic. Perhaps I'm overestimating
fanfic's importance in the grand scheme, but I think that is what I do
with fanfic myself. Maybe because I envy the really good fanfic authors
to death, because I can't write stories for the life of me.

Fanfic makes the show more fun, even though it can make the show a hell
of a lot more painful to watch. I've since given up buying the Trek
novels, because the really fun things only get to happen in fanfic--
romance, sex, character development. Such things are either taboo, or
restricted to the "official" job the show's writers get to do for the
screen. But if we're not happy with what the writers are doing onscreen,
we can write fanfic to share what we'd like to see happen, and if we can't
write stories, we can pick from a wide variety of "alternate universes"
created by various authors, and combine that with the "real" universe
should we so desire.

Peg and Macedon's series is taking its own tack out of the universe
we've got on the show. But whatever moments, characters, ideas from these
stories I can still mentally resolve with the "canonical" VOY universe
will probably crop up in my consciousness from time to time. I can't
help it. Does this give fanfic more credit than it deserves? I don't
know. I'm just damned grateful for all that fanfic authors have done
for my enjoyment and appreciation of Trek in general. They scratch
the itches the "real" writers won't, they take risks because they aren't
bound by the rules of TV Land, they fix the little (and the big) mistakes
but they aren't pompous about it. Bravo, all.

No one won my argument over fanfic, incidentally. I think we both gave
up.

schlock
--
"Find beauty in the banal, for it is everywhere." --Bellini
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~schlock

[ThePooh]

Beth--

I've no idea who you are, but obviously you don't realize that this
newsgroup does NOT consist only of writers with pretensions to competing
with/improving the shows. Some of the people who post here (or would like
to) are teenagers with very little writing experience, students without
much time to research or edit their work, people who compose off the tops
of their heads and would have trouble editing even if they wanted to, and
people who are writing and sharing their thoughts just for fun--not
looking for criticism, advice, or general lambasting.

Perhaps I made a mistake in debating Peg's post about "Resolutions," which
you seem to have taken as criticism of her story itself--I've thought
everything she's posted here has been absolutely terrific, and if she
hadn't couched it in terms of "This is my alternative to that shit on the
television," it wouldn't have occurred to me to say anything negative in a
creative newsgroup in the first place. Of course people can respond
defensively when slammed, but why should they have to? And why are you
defending Peg obliquely by telling me I seem to need my opinions
validated, than simply doing what you wish those writers would do and
saying you disagree with me?

It makes me sad when I encounter writers who are nervous about posting
because this newsgroup is not a friendly place, and it makes me sadder
when only certain people seem to feel empowered to enter into a broader
debate about what the show is and should be...

Michelle
Writing from my alternate universe account...

tig...@cais.cais.com/the...@aol.com
Home of Now Voyager, Kate Mulgrew's official fan club

[Aleph Press]

I really do have to add my ten cents (adjusted for inflation) here.

We all have different opinions of the characters. I think few people
would say something to the effect of "Your portrayal of x character was
really, really stupid and obviously you aren't watching the same show I
am" unless the portrayal *was* really, really stupid. You know the type
of story... Captain Kirk, who has consistently throughout TOS shown
himself to be a fierce individualist and against any kind of mental
coercion, finds happiness in pre-reform Vulcan with Spock as a
slavemaster... Janeway decides to give up being a starship captain to
marry some guy she just met on some planet... Q flings himself into
Lwaxana Troi's arms and declares his undying love *on the second page*,
and worse, *means* it... haven't we all read stories this absurd?

Pegeel's and Macedon's interpretation of Chakotay may be different from
mine (and thank God, because mine is that he's a Plastic Injun who isn't
worth watching, and so their interpretation is so much more entertaining
than mine that I really like their stuff), or may be different from
yours, which generally equates to "I don't think the character I'm seeing
in these stories is the same as the one on TV." Fine. But I don't think
either of them ever said "You *must* like our version because it's
better, and Joe's a genuine Native American, and if you like Voyager's
version, you suck and so does it."

What I believe Pegeel said was, "This is a problem I have with the
episode "Resolutions" and the treatment of Chakotay, and this is my
personal interpretation, and this is what I as a fan writer am going to
do about it." Period. No flag-waving, no "Mine's better and yours sucks",
no "Chakotay as portrayed on Voyager is a disgusting insult to all Native
Americans and if you like him you must be a sickening bigot,", nothing
like that at all. She expressed a personal opinion which led her to write
fanfic.

Frankly, the notion that either Peg or Macedon should be forbidden to
have a difference of opinion with the television show because someone
might think they're saying that people who *do* like the show are stupid,
evil or wrong smacks suspiciously to me of wanting all opinions to
conform to one's own, and perceiving anyone else's stated opinions as an
attack on yours. And this is a very dangerous path to tread. For
instance, I am a hurt/comfort writer who subscribes to the humanistic
belief that both men and women are people too, and if I'm gonna beat up
on the boys, it's only fair of me to beat up on the girls as well. Should
I then treat Michelle's dislike of "hurt/comfort stories that degrade
women" as a personal insult to me and a sexist statement that it's okay
to degrade men like Kirk and Picard, but not women like Janeway, rather
like the old adage "don't hit a girl?"

I'm sure Michelle doesn't mean her opinion as a personal attack on me or
any other hurt/comfort writer. She personally feels uncomfortable with
such stories, and that's fine. If she wants to express that discomfort in
commentary on a story, or review of an episode, that's fine too. But that
means that Peg and Macedon should have the exact same right to express
*their* discomfort with things they see in a story or an episode, and
have their views politely challenged by those who don't agree, *without*
the implication that they should not be expressing those views at all or
that by doing so they are attacking people with different views.

--
The 1990's will be remembered historically as the decade when the
Russians gained freedom of speech and the Americans lost theirs.

-- Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com

Fight the Communications Decency Act! Preserve free speech on the net!
Check out http://www.aclu.org for links and info.

[Jessica Krucek]

>I had a terrific argument with someone on one of the Trek NGs (via
e-mail, though) over this very subject. He believed that fanfic was
written
>by a bunch of authors sitting around complaining, thinking that they
could
>do it better than the Trek writers ever could and being very pompous
about
>being "correct" in fixing Trek's "mistakes."

I'll admit it. When it comes to fanfic, I'm arrogant. I gripe, I
swear fluently about 4th season DS9. I start flame wars on
rec.arts.startrek.misc just because I can. I go out of my way to piss
off Worf fans because I don't like DS9's Worf (TNG's Worf was an okay
guy, but the ass who has a "seat" in the Defiant's mess hall has to go
and pronto). Am I pompus? Well, I sure as hell am opinionated and not
above throwing and taking my share of flames and praise. I toss virtual
napalm with the best of them (heck, I even subscribed to alt.flame for
a while).
Can I do it better than the writers? Well, I'm not working under
the conditions they are. I don't have ViaBorg timing me with a
stopwatch and demanding that I put an ex-freedom fighter in 3" spikes
(thanks to Sid, those heels are going to be history), that I put out 60
pages a week, and that I write to their perceptions of a young male
audience. I'd tell the boss (most likely) to f--- himself after a few
months.

Head to head, even forum to even forum...I'd like to think that I
can whip up a better Jadzia Dax than the standard staff. Put a bat'leth
in her hand, have her ooze off or Worf, load Farrell down with a
mouthful of technobabble, or haul in a past Host...you have a Dax
episode, right? Wrong. Go ahead and say what you like to that
statement.

This, of course, was why he
>hadn't *read* any fanfic in a long time, and why he thought it was all
>either Trek porn or cheesy romance. (Aside: I *like* cheesy Trek
romance. So sue me.)

My foray into "Cheesy Romance" was "Compatability Factor" -
Symbiosis Commission had picked out a husband for Jadzia. Betrothed
comes to DS9, and Julian realizes that those feelings aren't hidden as
deep as he thought. I can ID a couple weaknesses in it (mostly along
the lines of the betrothed not being a well-rounded character, the
guy's attitude changing too quickly, and Jadzia's realization that she
loves Julian coming a little too sudden), but a lot of folks (including
myself) thought the story was GREAT STUFF.

As for "porn" - never written any and I don't want to try. The
instant I get them naked, I fade to black, and come up on the next
scene.

I write a lot of DS9, and sure I go a little heavy on the J/J (now,
though, it's more to tick off the Worf fans than anything in canon),
but I try to have a plot, solid characterization, and all the other
elements of good fiction. I'm a pro writer (small time), and my Trek
stuff is held to the same standard (if not a higher one) of all my
other work. Right now, I'm doing rewrite #6 on "Compatability Factor's"
sequel, and working with a fellow fanfic author I met from the USS
Amagosa RPG group.

I will admit that a LOT of fanfic is not well written. The first
story I downloaded from the Internet was a Julian/Jadzia story so bad
that the propritor of the JJLL (which is a DS9 offshoot of BONC)
refuses to acknowledge its existance (a true, three cow pie stinker). I
keep it around as a reminder of what NOT to do.

alt.startrek.creative.erotica usually has a rare gem (if you clear
the spam, and sort through about 3 sheer porn to one good story). I
posted "CF" there just to make a point that Trek romance doesn't have
to be graphic.

>I made the comment that the show's portrayal of Chakotay, for example,
>could benefit a lot from taking a look at *this* portrayal of
>Chakotay.

Or DS9 in general. In fanfic, the characters are much different.
Julian Bashir, especially. My perception of him has been altered
permanantly due to stories like Branda Antrim's "Flashback," Kathie
Moh's "Stuff of Lies," and even Sophie Hawkins's "Parting Words."
Fanfic really does wild and wierd things with that particular
character. I'm sure Sid's got his hands on some that is under the "Hey,
Nana, check THIS out!" category. I know that I've spent nights frying
my brain on the stuff.
Plus, there was the different interpetations in TNG - some old
school Beverly/Jean-Luc fans were making speculations about the past
they shared with Jack Crusher - a past that never got explored and only
got rolling eyeballs from the pro writers. Data fanfic was split into
two camps. The "pro camp" tried to paint him as more robot, but fanfic
authors were split on how "human" to make him. Some, like fanfic author
gone pocket pro Jean Lorrah, painted him as practically human, while
others (Peter David) stuck to treating him like a sentient, yet
emotionless machine. Then, there was Brent Spiner who played both sides
of the coin with equal grace.

I've always thought the art of fanfic (in general) is to find the
thread that you know the writers will never play up on and seeing what
you can sew with it. The writers won't bring back Lenara Kaan, so what
do the Dax fans do? I think a story in the archives called "My Heart is
Here" covers the bill.

To explain how the loose thread thing works, I'll bring up another
show - Blake's 7 (British SF series, ran from 1979-1982). While
watching a videotape of the pilot episode with Scott, a non-writer
fannish friend of mine, I ask a question about one of the "witnesses"
sent to frame the hero (the title character was busted on false charges
of child molestation). I turn to Scott, and ask whether that character
ever comes back to haunt Blake. Scott said "no." I say "Well, here's
Blake's 7 idea number one."

Then I told him that I believe that, in my mind at least,
>the characters as depicted in the show and in the fanfic have become
>inextricably linked.

I know how the show treats Julian, and I know how the writers in
DRX (Sid's fan club) handle him. I can't watch DS9 without the "fanfic"
Julian running in my head. Hazard of fandom...I never can see a show
and treat the fanfic as completely separate from it.

>Fanfic characterizations can seem to be more dead-on than the show's
>characterizations are themselves, which seems like a contradiction.
>Perhaps it's that what authors do with stories is extrapolate from
>what we're given on the show, and expand the character as it could
>logically develop (in a perfect universe without eight other regulars
>to contend with, of course).

I'm told by die-hard Dax haters that my stories are some of the
best they've seen. I've literally had someone write a Dax-bashing 2
page letter, then turn around and order every Dax story in my stash.
Then again, if I tried to write Quark, I'd be in trouble because of my
Marxist ideals. Kira would also be difficult to write. I never can do
her justice. If push came to shove, or the right dare came along, I'll
write some stories for her (going back to the tapes and the NV
interviews).

For lack of depth in characterization, I
>think one would mentally fill in the gaps (unconsciously perhaps) with
>appropriate scenes and ideas from fanfic.

I know that there are two fanzines dedicated to Julian's past, even
though not much is known (and what is known is sometimes suspect in
circles of the DRX) about it. And also "The Quickening" - GREAT
episode, but I got the feeling there was a scene cut out somewhere.
Now, THERE would be a great loose thread to sew with.

>Fanfic makes the show more fun, even though it can make the show a
hell
>of a lot more painful to watch.

No kidding. Especially 4th season DS9. I got spoiled by the really
good stuff. And it's the fan authors (like Janis Cortese and Jennifer
Shipp) who are abandoning fandom due to their dissatisfaction with the
way things are going. Even I shout "Oh, fuck you guys! You fumbled it
AGAIN?" at the TV at crap like "Sword of Kahless." The cuss fests and
cheers I have at Trek resembles sports nuts during the playoffs.

I'm a fanfic author and damn proud of it. Someone has to keep it
going after ViaBorg runs the franchise into the ground.

- Jessica

[Nyani-Iisha Martin]

ThePooh (the...@aol.com) wrote:
: Beth--

: I've no idea who you are,

Um, she writes stories also. Does she need to be "famous" for you to
respect her opinion?

: but obviously you don't realize that this

: newsgroup does NOT consist only of writers with pretensions to competing
: with/improving the shows.

Very true. (Although isn't the "pretensions" line a bit much? It does
sound as if you don't think the fanfic is of quality after all, and from
other things you've said I doubt that's what you mean.)

Maybe we need to set up a system whereby people can indicate the level of
criticism they want. Someone who wants their story criticized
constructively will be very disappointed with nothing but one-line kudos,
while someone who doesn't want to have their story picked apart will be
crushed by forceful criticism. I don't see any reason to choose between
the two groups when there are other solutions.

: Perhaps I made a mistake in debating Peg's post about "Resolutions,"

You started an interesting conversation, and for that alone I thank you. If
people disagree with you on *what you said* that's life; maybe you are
wrong on specific points, maybe they are, and maybe no one is or everyone
is. That is different from saying "Michelle, shut up and go away", which I,
for one, haven't seen anyone say.

: television," it wouldn't have occurred to me to say anything negative in a

: creative newsgroup in the first place. Of course people can respond
: defensively when slammed, but why should they have to?

I don't think I follow your logic here. If you're saying people shouldn't
disagree...that would be a nice world, but we'd run out of haggis (to
paraphrase Marion Zimmer Bradley).

: It makes me sad when I encounter writers who are nervous about posting

: because this newsgroup is not a friendly place,

Not a friendly place?!

Good grief. This is one of the friendliest newsgroups I read.
Alt.folklore.urban or misc.kids or the net.abuse newsgroups are not very
friendly. This is. Simply being disagreed with or being criticized is not
being flamed. There is a *huge* difference.

: and it makes me sadder

: when only certain people seem to feel empowered to enter into a broader
: debate about what the show is and should be...

I don't think it's because they think they are the only ones with viable
ideas. I think it's because not everyone wants their ideas held up to be
disagreed with, which is their right and prerogative (I put an extra 'r'
in there, didn't I?). Some people simply like to discuss more than others do.

Ny Martin

[Jessica Krucek]

>We all have different opinions of the characters. I think few people
>would say something to the effect of "Your portrayal of x character
was
>really, really stupid and obviously you aren't watching the same show
I
>am" unless the portrayal *was* really, really stupid. You know the
type
>of story...

Yup. Been there, done that. Have the "bad example" notebook.

Captain Kirk, who has consistently throughout TOS shown
>himself to be a fierce individualist and against any kind of mental
>coercion, finds happiness in pre-reform Vulcan with Spock as a
>slavemaster...

Oh, yes. Alternate Universe stuff. I'm headed to a slash convention
in October. :-) Those are staples of the K/S genre and I treat it as
such (the same way alternate versions of "The Die is Cast" have become
staples of B/G fanfic).

Janeway decides to give up being a starship captain to
>marry some guy she just met on some planet...

Shades of DS9's "Meridian." <rolling eyeballs>

Q flings himself into
>Lwaxana Troi's arms and declares his undying love *on the second
page*,

I don't know. It depends on how you handle it. <snicker> Peter
David did a rip-snorting die-of-laughter novel along those lines.

>and worse, *means* it... haven't we all read stories this absurd?

I don't know whether I can type out the permises of a few without
wincing.

which generally equates to "I don't think the character I'm seeing
>in these stories is the same as the one on TV." Fine.

Well, I know the Dax and Bashir I write certainly doesn't rack up
to canon (and seriously, I woundn't want them to - I've not liked a lot
of this season, especially in regard to Julian). I know that what I
write doesn't match canon. I used to be ultra-paranoid about racking up
to canon, but not so much anymore. There's no excuse for sloppy
writing, but there is something to be said for being so upset with
canon that you haul out the guns.

And this is a very dangerous path to tread. For
>instance, I am a hurt/comfort writer who subscribes to the humanistic
>belief that both men and women are people too, and if I'm gonna beat
up on the boys, it's only fair of me to beat up on the girls as well.

I do my share of h/c (mostly in the stories you can't get through
e-mail), and I do beat up on men and women with equal nastiness. In
fact, I'm a lot nastier to Jadzia than I am to Julian simply because I
need to crack a few centuries' worth of emotional protection first.

Should
>I then treat Michelle's dislike of "hurt/comfort stories that degrade
>women" as a personal insult to me and a sexist statement that it's
okay to degrade men like Kirk and Picard, but not women like Janeway,
rather like the old adage "don't hit a girl?"

If she doesn't like h/c she shouldn't have read it (if you can't
take the heat, get out of the flame war). I'll warn anyone about my
heavy-duty DS9 h/c before I send it out to them so they can back out. I
don't want my stuff to go to someone who finds h/c uncomfortable. Lord
knows I've walked out of films, sworn at the TV, and tossed books
across rooms because they trigger some nasty memories. If you don't
like my stories, give me a suggestion of what you found weak so that I
can "build a better mousetrap" the next time around.

As for personal insult...well, it takes a lot to insult me
personally. :-)

- Jessica

[Aleph Press]

Jessica Krucek (allr...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Can I do it better than the writers? Well, I'm not working under

: the conditions they are. I don't have ViaBorg timing me with a
: stopwatch and demanding that I put an ex-freedom fighter in 3" spikes
: (thanks to Sid, those heels are going to be history), that I put out 60
: pages a week, and that I write to their perceptions of a young male
: audience. I'd tell the boss (most likely) to f--- himself after a few
: months.

Wouldn't we all? :-)

This is why I've never tried to submit a script to Paramount. I'm pretty
sure I could write a better script than some of their stuff... I mean,
exactly how do you get worse than "Threshold?" And I've actually had
ideas that later turned up in the show-- I came up with "Dax gets
involved with former lover who's now female" back in first season (didn't
everyone?) But I can't stand the loss of creative control.

People have often suggested to me that I should try to submit my fan
novel "Only Human", about Q losing his powers, to Pocket Books. No way.
It breaks every single one of their rules, from "you have to focus on the
series main characters" to "you can't have anybody change by the end of
the story." Oh, and I have a gay character, I'm sure *that's* a no-no. I
have a great deal of respect for anyone who's capable of writing under
such strictures... but, except for a rare few wonderful folks, no respect
at all for wht they're forced to produce.

: Head to head, even forum to even forum...I'd like to think that I

: can whip up a better Jadzia Dax than the standard staff. Put a bat'leth
: in her hand, have her ooze off or Worf, load Farrell down with a
: mouthful of technobabble, or haul in a past Host...you have a Dax
: episode, right? Wrong. Go ahead and say what you like to that
: statement.

Well, I actually *like* Dax with a bat'leth. We *know* Kira can kick ass,
she's a freedom fighter. Getting to see a beautiful female scientist kick
ass truly warms my heart. But yeah, I wish it wasn't Klingons Dax was
into. If she'd been into Romulans, or even Cardies, it would have been
more entertaining than Klingons, for the simple reason that Klingons are
boring.

: elements of good fiction. I'm a pro writer (small time), and my Trek

Really? What've you done? I've published a short story based on White
Wolf's "Werewolf" role-playing game in the anthology "When Will You
Rage?", ed. by Stewart Wieck.

I know we had a thread to this effect a year or so before, but how many
writers here have pro or semi-pro credentials?

: I will admit that a LOT of fanfic is not well written. The first

: story I downloaded from the Internet was a Julian/Jadzia story so bad
: that the propritor of the JJLL (which is a DS9 offshoot of BONC)
: refuses to acknowledge its existance (a true, three cow pie stinker). I
: keep it around as a reminder of what NOT to do.

Tell me about it. As a Q fan, I can say with some degree of knowledge
that Q is one of the hardest characters to write well-- so very, very
many stories revolve around "Q is bored, what can he do today? I know!
He'll be a plot device!" The *only* canonical version of this plot is
"Q-Pid", but it does get done over and over and over in fanfic. (And the
comics, too.) Some of the worst stories I've ever read have been Q
stories. It just inspires me to work harder.

: alt.startrek.creative.erotica usually has a rare gem (if you clear

: the spam, and sort through about 3 sheer porn to one good story). I
: posted "CF" there just to make a point that Trek romance doesn't have
: to be graphic.

True. In fact, Trek romance doesn't need to be romance. My personal
preference is for stories where the romance is *not* the point of the
story-- sort of the Trek format "a-plot" and "b-plot", but both plots
have to be interesting.

: >I made the comment that the show's portrayal of Chakotay, for example,

: >could benefit a lot from taking a look at *this* portrayal of
: >Chakotay.

: Or DS9 in general. In fanfic, the characters are much different.
: Julian Bashir, especially. My perception of him has been altered
: permanantly due to stories like Branda Antrim's "Flashback," Kathie
: Moh's "Stuff of Lies," and even Sophie Hawkins's "Parting Words."
: Fanfic really does wild and wierd things with that particular
: character. I'm sure Sid's got his hands on some that is under the "Hey,
: Nana, check THIS out!" category. I know that I've spent nights frying
: my brain on the stuff.

I don't know. I've also seen a *lot* of fanfic of the sort "Julian Bashir
has a mysterious and sordid past which has left him a tormented soul,"
which is something I plain don't see in the character at all. I mean,
this stuff is well-written, but it seems to be about a different
character. To me, the appeal of Bashir is that he really is young,
innocent, and largely unsullied by life, as well as arrogantly convinced
he knows everything and he's God's gift to women. These "Bashir was a
harem slave" stories seem to me as implausible as the Blake's 7 story
where Vila is secretly an Alpha.

: Plus, there was the different interpetations in TNG - some old

: school Beverly/Jean-Luc fans were making speculations about the past
: they shared with Jack Crusher - a past that never got explored and only
: got rolling eyeballs from the pro writers. Data fanfic was split into
: two camps. The "pro camp" tried to paint him as more robot, but fanfic
: authors were split on how "human" to make him. Some, like fanfic author
: gone pocket pro Jean Lorrah, painted him as practically human, while
: others (Peter David) stuck to treating him like a sentient, yet
: emotionless machine. Then, there was Brent Spiner who played both sides
: of the coin with equal grace.

Personally, I have to say I preferred the Peter David version, simply
because it seemed closer to the show. But then Lorrah drew all her
information from first season, which I hated, and friends of mine who are
Data fans think they really backpedaled on Data in third seaon. I can see
the point-- if the Doctor on Voayger suddenly starts acting like an
emotionless AI in third season, I will be pissed.

: To explain how the loose thread thing works, I'll bring up another

: show - Blake's 7 (British SF series, ran from 1979-1982). While
: watching a videotape of the pilot episode with Scott, a non-writer
: fannish friend of mine, I ask a question about one of the "witnesses"
: sent to frame the hero (the title character was busted on false charges
: of child molestation). I turn to Scott, and ask whether that character
: ever comes back to haunt Blake. Scott said "no." I say "Well, here's
: Blake's 7 idea number one."

Oh, there are bazillions of B7 loose threads, and what ifs. Did you ever
see the episode where Avon and Cally's minds are sucked out, and Tarrant
has to put them back without knowing whose is whose? The moment I saw
that, I thought, "FANFIC!" Turned out Jean Lorrah had already done it, so
I didn't have to.

Another aspect of fanfic is filling in backstories. To me, the episode
"True Q" makes no sense. Why is the Continuum so set on killing Amanda if
she doesn't want to be a Q? Why can't they just take her powers away? I
wrote "Dilemma" to explain why. When I saw "Death Wish", I found myself
really wanting to see the scene where Q decides to give "Quinn" the stuff
to kill himself. So I wrote that.

: Then I told him that I believe that, in my mind at least,

: >the characters as depicted in the show and in the fanfic have become
: >inextricably linked.

: I know how the show treats Julian, and I know how the writers in
: DRX (Sid's fan club) handle him. I can't watch DS9 without the "fanfic"
: Julian running in my head. Hazard of fandom...I never can see a show
: and treat the fanfic as completely separate from it.

The only reason at all that I can stand Troi is what a good fan writer
can do with her, because she was so sadly wasted in TNG.

: >Fanfic characterizations can seem to be more dead-on than the show's

: >characterizations are themselves, which seems like a contradiction.
: >Perhaps it's that what authors do with stories is extrapolate from
: >what we're given on the show, and expand the character as it could
: >logically develop (in a perfect universe without eight other regulars
: >to contend with, of course).

: I'm told by die-hard Dax haters that my stories are some of the
: best they've seen. I've literally had someone write a Dax-bashing 2
: page letter, then turn around and order every Dax story in my stash.
: Then again, if I tried to write Quark, I'd be in trouble because of my
: Marxist ideals. Kira would also be difficult to write. I never can do
: her justice. If push came to shove, or the right dare came along, I'll
: write some stories for her (going back to the tapes and the NV
: interviews).

For some characters, even though the characterization is not accurate in
the given fan story, it's so much better that you forgive it. For
instance, if I read a story in which Troi is depicted as a calm,
competent counselor who is skilled with the use of her powers and uses
them for things more useful than saying "I sense great hostility", I
think, "Wow! What a great portrayal of Troi!", even though, except for
one or two episodes, Troi was utterly incompetent and useless all
throughout TNG. I personally perfer Troi to Crusher, even though Crusher
at least got to be competent, because I see Troi as having so much more
fanfic potential than Crusher.

: >Fanfic makes the show more fun, even though it can make the show a

: hell
: >of a lot more painful to watch.

: No kidding. Especially 4th season DS9. I got spoiled by the really
: good stuff. And it's the fan authors (like Janis Cortese and Jennifer
: Shipp) who are abandoning fandom due to their dissatisfaction with the
: way things are going. Even I shout "Oh, fuck you guys! You fumbled it
: AGAIN?" at the TV at crap like "Sword of Kahless." The cuss fests and
: cheers I have at Trek resembles sports nuts during the playoffs.

I haven't really felt that way about any episode of DS9 this season-- as
I've said before, I disagree with you about the relative merits of this
season's DS9, and I think that when one ignores Worf, who roundly
deserves to be ignored, this has been one of the best seasons yet. But I
do know exactly what you mean. Voyager does that to me almost every week.
I still really like the characters... but...

: I'm a fanfic author and damn proud of it. Someone has to keep it

: going after ViaBorg runs the franchise into the ground.

Hey, B7 fanfic is still going strong fourteen years after the last
episode, with no new material in all that time.

[Macedon]

In article <4oogh6$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, the...@aol.com (ThePooh) says:

>I've no idea who you are, but obviously you don't realize that this

>newsgroup does NOT consist only of writers with pretensions to competing

>with/improving the shows. Some of the people who post here (or would like
>to) are teenagers with very little writing experience, students without
>much time to research or edit their work, people who compose off the tops
>of their heads and would have trouble editing even if they wanted to, and
>people who are writing and sharing their thoughts just for fun--not
>looking for criticism, advice, or general lambasting.

First, Beth is a long-time member of this group. She's written TOS fanfic,
is one of the "Vulcan contingent" <g>, and has generally egged on/pleaded
with anyone else who likes and writes TOS-ish fanfic, too. Or Vulcans.

Second, there's a big difference between receiving critique on a *story*,
and critique on a post. Are you complaining because Beth replied to your
post? But it's posted in a public group. That means anyone who wishes
to join in, may. Further, if a story is posted to a public group, that
author may *request* that no criticism be sent, or may add in a preface
'This is my first story; please be kind', and THE GREAT MAJORITY will
abide by that request. In fact, this group in general seems reluctan
to give negative criticism, even when the author specifically says it's
permitted. So the bias runs the other way. But there is always a risk
folks won't like a story and will say so, even if you ask them not to.
That's the risk of a public post. That's why a lot of people ARE
lurkers. But unless you want to censor and regulate the net, you can't
keep out the rude people. The best one can do is attack, publicly,
people who publicly attack. Which is what I do. If I see someone nail
someone's story in public in what I think is *inappropriate* language,
I'll take that poster to task. I've done so in the past; I'll do so
again. Polite public critique is one thing; blasting a story in public
is quite another. Further, I find it funny that you're the one complaining
about such blasting as I seem to recall you *defending* someone who posted
a public flame of one of Killashandra's stories. Now, which is it Michelle?
You can't have it both ways: I'll defend people who flame what I don't like
but complain about people who flame stories I do like. I wouldn't have
bothered to bring that up except that you suddenly seem to be on a high
horse about public flames...and I find it ironic. I'm afraid, were I
a beginning writer, I'd be more concerned about your response than about
Beth's.

I don't think Beth has any confusion over the difference between public
critique *of a story* and critique of a public post. And her point
stands. People who post to the net, which is *public*, risk public
critique. In general, this place isn't much given to critique, but
the potential remains. And people who are put off posting for that
reason, or who can't deal with it, should pass around stories privately.
You cannot silence people in public places, or you're interfereing with
the right of free speech (not to be confused with harrassment or libel).

>if she
>hadn't couched it in terms of "This is my alternative to that shit on the

>television," it wouldn't have occurred to me to say anything negative in a
>creative newsgroup in the first place.

Michelle, you have simply *got* to learn the difference between constructive
criticism, opinions expressed, and *flame-bait*, or you're going to go
through life flinching at everything and completely unable to hear anything
*helpful* from others that is not praise of what you believe/think. The
world is not divided into either/or, no matter how much you want to cast
it so. Peg quite bluntly *said* in her initial post that 1) she didn't
like certain aspects of "Resolutions", 2) why, and 3) others didn't have
to agree with her. At no point did she use any rude or offensive language
concerning Voyager, certainly not "shit" as you you paraphrased it. That
would, indeed have been flame-bait.

And perhaps therein lies the problem? You are reading into things, taking
things to an extreme so that they no longer resemble what WAS said, and
then responding to that extreme. You did the same thing with me on the
"Write what you know" example. If this is your argument style, there is
no way to argue anything with you because you're not actually listening
to what the other person is saying. You're re-interpreting it through
a filter of your own construction. I, for one, have no desire to shadow-
box with misinterpretations of myself.

[Macedon]

In article <alephDs...@netcom.com>, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) says:

>Jessica Krucek (allr...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: Can I do it better than the writers? Well, I'm not working under
>: the conditions they are.

>This is why I've never tried to submit a script to Paramount. I'm pretty

>sure I could write a better script than some of their stuff... I mean,
>exactly how do you get worse than "Threshold?"

There ain't much worse than "Threshold" except maybe "Spock's Brain." <G>
Although I will say R.D.McNeil had his moments in the show. The ending
was just to worse case of deux e machina I've seen in a *long* time.
I can think of a number of stories I've seen here which would have made
a good episode. :)

>People have often suggested to me that I should try to submit my fan
>novel "Only Human", about Q losing his powers, to Pocket Books. No way.
>It breaks every single one of their rules, from "you have to focus on the
>series main characters" to "you can't have anybody change by the end of
>the story."

Don't even get me going on Pocket. <roll of eyes> Most of the authors
I've talked to personally (small number, so this is hardly a valid survey)
did so because 1) they were long-time ST fans, and 2) they needed the money.
Sometimes they turn out fun stuff. I rather liked Lois Tilton's novel, and
Melissa Scott's. But then, I like their regular SF and like it much better
than the ST things. The only author who I can genuinely say I prefer her
ST to regular SF is Diane Duane. Oh, and I thought Ford's two novels
were about equal to some of his regular SF, but then, he wrote them
long before the current strictures went into effect.

>I know we had a thread to this effect a year or so before, but how many
>writers here have pro or semi-pro credentials?

Moi, I'm afraid. Although the two (only two) short stories were done in
small-press SF mags, now thankfully out of print. If anyone ever finds
them, I'll die of embarrassment. <G> At present, have one book with
agent looking for home, have second book about 2/3s done which I hope
to have ready for sale by the end of the summer. (Which is one reason
I won't be writing much else in terms of fanfic this summer. The novel
and a dissertation are wailing to be finished. Though I do owe Peg.)
Oh, the book looking for a home is called SON OF THUNDER, for the
curious. It's an historical. Rather long elephant, too.

>True. In fact, Trek romance doesn't need to be romance. My personal
>preference is for stories where the romance is *not* the point of the
>story-- sort of the Trek format "a-plot" and "b-plot", but both plots
>have to be interesting.

I don't mind a love story, but I'm not into Romance (capital R as in
genre style). I prefer relationship stories.

>: No kidding. Especially 4th season DS9. I got spoiled by the really
>: good stuff.

>I haven't really felt that way about any episode of DS9 this season-- as

>I've said before, I disagree with you about the relative merits of this
>season's DS9, and I think that when one ignores Worf, who roundly
>deserves to be ignored, this has been one of the best seasons yet. But I
>do know exactly what you mean. Voyager does that to me almost every week.
>I still really like the characters... but...

I have to agree with Alara on this one. I personally have liked a number
of episodes this season, although I'd LOVE to see Kira lose those dumb
heels and Worf could disappear into the woodwork. I think that, in general,
they've turned out some just *outstanding* stuff almost *in spite* of the
decisions. I'm just in awe of "The Visitor." When I can write that well,
I'll be *delighted.*

[Mercutio]

mee...@exis.net (Beth Meenaghan) wrote:

I think Beth has raised a good point here, and while I don't wish to
respond directly to what she's said, I would like to use some of the things
she said to make an argument of my own.

>Are we going to do this again? "Someone did not like my story/disagreed
>with my ideas/told me I got something all wrong, and therefore I will never
>post to this group again because I can't deal with it.

>It's too bad

>people forget or don't realize that they can stand up to someone with an
>opposing viewpoint, but it's not the fault of the person who spoke out if
>that person never chooses to post here again.

While there is certainly a point to the argument that it is not the fault
of the person who spoke out if this causes someone else to leave, it also
needs to be said that the sort of viewpoints and discussion mentioned here
should only be done within the confines of legitimate criticism and
discussion, which the discussion over "Resolution" and "Raisins and
Almonds" has certainly stopped being.

I'm all for discussion of stories and viewpoints, but it's also important
to keep such discussions polite and to discuss the stories and/or the
shows, not our opinion of other people.

When personal remarks are being made, the newsgroup can become a hostile
atmosphere rather than one conducive to fostering writing and discussion of
it, and I can understand why someone would choose not to post in such an
environment.

I hope we can continue to maintain the newsgroup as a place for posting and
discussing stories about Star Trek, and do it in a way that encourages
people to want to join in.

That's my two cents on the subject.

---me...@europa.com---
"There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book.
Books are well written, or badly written."
--Oscar Wilde, "The Picture of Dorian Gray"

[Jessica Krucek]

>This is why I've never tried to submit a script to Paramount. I'm
pretty
>sure I could write a better script than some of their stuff... I mean,

>exactly how do you get worse than "Threshold?"

Or "Mreidian" or "Sword of Kahless" or...

And I've actually had
>ideas that later turned up in the show-- I came up with "Dax gets
>involved with former lover who's now female" back in first season
(didn't
>everyone?)

Uh, nope. Came up with the "Invasive Procedures" idea in a con 6
months before the show aired (about 20 minutes after I hear a female
Trill was involved).

>People have often suggested to me that I should try to submit my fan
>novel "Only Human", about Q losing his powers, to Pocket Books. No
way. It breaks every single one of their rules, from "you have to focus
on the series main characters" to "you can't have anybody change by the
end of the story."

<sigh> Small wonder most of the DS9 books are a bore (but if you
liked "The Quickening," check out Warchild!). :-) Peter David managed
to do Imzadi, though. In Seattle, at least, a lot of folks believe that
book more than they believe "Second Chances!" (ye with the best tale
wins).

>: elements of good fiction. I'm a pro writer (small time), and my Trek

>Really? What've you done?

Mostly Journalisim (film, book, and food critic), a couple of
magazine articles (including a Trek article published in Dutch), a
CD-Rom script (which was voiced and animated, but never came out
because of technology problems), and currently I'm working on some low
buget movies (I get my jobs through Seattle's SF scene - lots of
small-time filmmakers).
In high school, I taught writing workshops (one week per year
starting Spohmore year).

> so very, very
>many stories revolve around "Q is bored, what can he do today? I know!

I';m more for "Q is in trouble." I actually wrote an article for
James VanHise about how Q evolved over the seasons. I secretly believe
(in retrospect) that he was trying to HELP humans/humanoids all along.
The Q had condemned them, and one lone Q (who had taken a fancy to
them) picked what he thought were the best examples as a control case.
He tested them time and again (to prove them to the continuum), and
they passed time and again.

>True. In fact, Trek romance doesn't need to be romance. My personal
>preference is for stories where the romance is *not* the point of the
>story-- sort of the Trek format "a-plot" and "b-plot", but both plots
>have to be interesting.

I'm attempting that with "The First Tile" - the J/J stuff is
definitely taking a backseat to what Richard (co-author) and I are
doing to Trill.

>: Or DS9 in general. In fanfic, the characters are much different.

>: Julian Bashir, especially...

>I don't know. I've also seen a *lot* of fanfic of the sort "Julian
Bashir
>has a mysterious and sordid past which has left him a tormented soul,"

I think it all started when Sid answered that his character's dad
was "A nightmare guy...possibly abusive" at a convention (early on).
From there, things got out of hand. I'll admit my Bashir and Soran
story was way farfetched (I wrote it on a DARE, for crying out loud),
but I do believe he's not from a squeaky-clean silver spoon background
(THAT honor was Jadzia's - she had the best her world could offer while
she sold her soul to the Host Program).

>which is something I plain don't see in the character at all. I mean,
>this stuff is well-written, but it seems to be about a different
>character.

Some of it, like "Flashback" is that way. Actually, there was a
whole, front-page article in MSM (newsletter for Sid's fan club) about
this particular topic. :-) I think there was some sort of covert
contest among the fanfic authors in the fan club (I'd estimate about a
third of DRX are fanfic authors, ex-fanfic authors, or avid zine
readers) to see how far the envelope could be pushed. Most fanfic about
him isn't that way anymore, but it was a blast while it lasted! JSB is
one VERY flexible character. In the words on one fanfic author, "Bashir
is a contradiction, and that contradiction is great for stories. Either
Bashir really did have the silver spoon background Pillar/Berman have
given us, or he had a troubled past, portrayed different ways by
different writers. If the writers use the unofficial past (i.e. their
own), then Bashir is a much more complex character...Bashir has a
resiliant personality that writers want to exploit, to see how much the
character can endure before cracking. If there's one thing I've learned
reading (and writing) these stories, it's that writers LOVE complex
characters..."
This stuff's spread elsewhere. You see, the editor of UMF (a
fanzine of Duran Duran based fiction) got a hold of "Flashback" and was
blown away. She promptly showed it to all the Duranies. I wouldn't be
surpirsed if I see a few Duran stories "borrowing" from the Bashir
stuff (subsitute John Taylor or Simon LeBon for Julian, though).
Duranies are still in the primiative stages of fanfic (Mary Sues
haven't gone out of style yet, slash is starting to spark up, and
hurt/comfort is just starting to get discovered). My sis writes Duran
fic, and brings her Trek expertice to it (I'm already cooking up
crossovers for the Duran stuff).

"Bashir was a
>harem slave" stories seem to me as implausible as the Blake's 7 story
>where Vila is secretly an Alpha.

Vila? The alchoholic kleptomaniac? An Alpha <snicker, laughter>?
Oh, good...LET'S screw with Avon's head! :-)

>Personally, I have to say I preferred the Peter David version, simply
>because it seemed closer to the show.

Peter David's Data was pretty boring, IMO. His versions of Will and
Deanna, though...WOW!!!!

>Oh, there are bazillions of B7 loose threads, and what ifs.

Goody. :-) I'm just getting my feet wet in that particular
universe. The campus is chockful of Anglophile fen. The resident B7 fan
really wants to see me cook up a B7 story (or four or five...:-) ). I'd
have to get a lot further into the universe before I start writing
actual stories, but I've fragments and scenes.

Did you ever
>see the episode where Avon and Cally's minds are sucked out, and
Tarrant
>has to put them back without knowing whose is whose?

No, but I've heard of fanfic where Tarrant screws up and the two
are permanantly switched! For some reason, the idea strikes me as funny
(funny ha-ha, not funny strange).

>Another aspect of fanfic is filling in backstories.

Yes. For example, Richard and I have a very detailed and very nasty
picture of Trill Society (which hasn't been talked about much on DS9).
We're getting into the Host Program, the Governmental system (a
constitutional monarchy), even their religion and a couple of myths. My
goal is to create a Trill that is half as cool as Jean Lorrah's Vulcan.

>: I'm a fanfic author and damn proud of it. Someone has to keep it
>: going after ViaBorg runs the franchise into the ground.
>
>Hey, B7 fanfic is still going strong fourteen years after the last
>episode, with no new material in all that time.

Glad to hear it. :-) The "other" Federation is a great place to
test my writing wings. Trek writing is one thing, but someone who is
"multilingual" with a few shows is hard to find.

- Jessica

[Macedon]

In article <4or464$6...@atheria.europa.com>, merc...@europa.com (Mercutio) says:

>it

>needs to be said that the sort of viewpoints and discussion mentioned here
>should only be done within the confines of legitimate criticism and
>discussion, which the discussion over "Resolution" and "Raisins and
>Almonds" has certainly stopped being.
>I'm all for discussion of stories and viewpoints, but it's also important
>to keep such discussions polite and to discuss the stories and/or the
>shows, not our opinion of other people.

Good point. It really *is* getting off the topic of stories and since I'm
one of the people who's been complaining about off-topic posts, I should
take my own advice and not post such myself. ;> I'll continue to discuss
the topic generally, but bag the rest of it.

[Shannara]

On Friday, May 31, 1996, Macedon wrote...

>
> See, it stops making sense. Were I just another AIM drumbeater, I'd be
> yelling about the fact Beltran isn't registered on tribal rolls and
> didn't grow up on a reservation and therefore doesn't have any business
> playing an Indian, etc., etc., ad nausea.
>

> >Excuse me, but Robert Beltran IS part Indian. But his tribe was the
Aztecs. You see, Robert's ancestors were from Mexico. He is also obviously
part Spanish.

North American Indian tribes were not the only Indians in the Americas.