Ranting (but hopefully not raving)
Kimbuk3
Subject:
Re: Ranting (but hopefully not raving)
Date:
Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:10:18 EST
From:
Kimbuk3 <Kim...@aol.com>
To:
as...@earthlink.net
JungleKitty wrote:
>There are women whom
>he likes (some whom he loves) in a personal way. Certainly desire plays
>a part but there is also affection for each of them as an individual.
>Then there may be women whom he likes just because they're female. I
>think this man's antenna (as well as another significant organ) go up
>automatically in the presence of an attractive woman (unless there's
>something else really negative going on). And I think a lot of them
>respond to him the same way. This isn't as crass as I'm making it sound.
>It's not just "Find 'em, fuck 'em, forget 'em." I think there is some
>"liking" there (although not a deep and abiding afection) and certainly
>"wanting." For whatever reason, he's responding to them as women.
Yes, I agree that Kirk certainly feels differently toward the different women
he encounters in TOS. Some are serious affairs of the heart, while others are
rather mindless flirtations, (like Janice Rand.) Sometimes, he's controlled
by an outside force, (ie. Elaan of Troyius or Dr. Noel in "Dagger of the
Mind.")
However, it's also true that in almost every episode where he interacts
with/seduces a woman, it is done to get the information he needs, or to get
help escaping. For example, "What are Little Girls...", "Catspaw", "Gamesters
of....", "By Any Other Name", "Mark of Gideon", etc, etc, etc.
(I must admit to being a major Wild Wild West fan, and James West does the
exact same thing, week after week, only *much* worse.)
Now, can you imagine the outrage, the FUROR, if TPTB had Janeway seducing and
charming men every week in order to get out of trouble or keep Voyager safe???
Why don't we ever seem to notice this about Kirk? Why is it he just has this
reputation as the horny space stud who chases every green-skinned babe that
comes his way? In fact, he routinely uses his physical appearance, his smile
and his charm to manipulate these women. In a very clear and calculating way.
He's not genuinely interested in them, and I don't think *these* type of
episodes prove that JTK was totally hot for the ladies. If there had been a
situation where using his charm on a *man* would have gotten them out of a
jam, I'm almost certain he would have done it.
I'm not saying this willingness to use his, um, talents, is a bad thing or a
flaw in his character. I just find it very interesting....
By the way, Spock does this same thing *once* with the Romulan Commander. And
everyone seems to notice the significance of that incident. Yet, we hardly
blink when JTK does it so frequently.
Finally, Killa astutely pointed out to me that Kirk must have bonked Miramanee
also, since she was *pregnant*!<g>
Kim
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Jungle Kitty
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - Re: Ranting (but hopefully not raving)
Date:
Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:44:12 -0800
From:
Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
References:
1
ASCEML wrote:
>
> Subject:
> Re: Ranting (but hopefully not raving)
> Date:
> Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:22:23 -0500
> From:
> baby...@aol.com (BabylonC)
> Organization:
> AOL http://www.aol.com
> To:
> <as...@earthlink.net>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
> References:
> 1
>
> So, Jungle Kitty has gotten some rave reviews from the people who
> have responded to this post. i guess i should check out some stories
> myself, I'm sure they're fabulous. I do have a question though:
>
> >Heck, you did a good job of something similar - I wouldn't have
> >believed Kirk was ever raped, or that such a story could work... yet
> >your The Life That Lies ::crossing fingers that title is right:: was
> >wonderfully done and *believable*.
>
> I have been trying to find "the life that lies", but i can't seem to
> locate it in any archives. i have found alot of JK's other works, but
> nothing with a title similar to that. Could somebody please tell me
> where to find a copy? my curiosity is piqued. Thanks. -E
>
> --
The story is The Life That Lies Before and it's on my web page. Also
probably in the archives.
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
--------------------------------------
It's not your grandmother's Star Trek.
--------------------------------------
Jane
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - Re: Ranting (but hopefully not raving)
Date:
From:
Jane <ska...@globalnet.co.uk>
To:
as...@earthlink.net
Jungle Kitty wrote:
>I'm going to use M'Benga/Chekov as my example here. (Has anyone
>written a story about this pair? I'm really trying to use something no
>one has actually written.)
I seem to have overlooked that one, JK. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I was tempted to reply to the net, saying that mixed race slash was
disgusting, and see if anyone would get as worked up about that as they have
over what you said. Haven't seen such a deluge of mail on one topic for a
long time.
I think you have to bear in mind that JTK is the ultimate bluffer and
manipulator, and we only see what he chooses to show on TV (in fanfic, of
course, we may get his inner thoughts), so he could be chasing skirt for any
reason he pleases, at any point. I never got the impression that he would
allow *any* of the women he met/romanced to come between him and what he
really cares about, the Enterprise&Spock package, with or without sex. It
never struck me either that he was ever sincere or caring, but I tend not to
want to explore the whole m/f romance thing in Trek, because I suspect my
own hangups and insecurities are too close to the surface. All those damn
leggy blondes, that narrow, narrow picture of the only way to be a
successful woman!
What always offends me most, though, is the Kirk-cares-deeply-about-his-crew
myth. He surely never furthers their careers, allows them leadership
experience, or does much else that demonstrates anything beyond following
the easy bits of the personnel manual. It's not so much that he does
anything *wrong*, more that he never does the little things right. A
co-writer of mine, who's a speech communication specialist, pointed out to
me once that he rarely makes eye contact, or initiates a significant verbal
interaction, with male crewmembers. Easy to explain in critiquing an actor
and a TV show, harder to make it work in fanfiction.
Oh, and whoever called Brandt a Mary Sue... depends exactly how you define
Mary Sue, I suppose, but if she is, you should take it as a badge of honour.
You've raised the whole genre to a new level.
Jane
______________________
ska...@globalnet.co.uk
______________________
Bran...@brown.edu
Subject:
Date:
From:
Bran...@brown.edu
Organization:
Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
In article <alexas-ya02408000...@news.earthlink.net>,
Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:
> I absolutely do *not* believe he was in love with/seriously committed to
> the alien babes, and I don't think I said that.
Well, good! (wipes brow in relief) -- I thought I'd read you wrong...
> I said (or was trying to
> say) that he wasn't using them as a shield or a disguise or a way of not
> facing up to himself.
We differ, here, but this may have more to do with our theories of
relationships than our readings of Kirk.
> Good point. But let's say I buy that Kirk is running from Spock's pull
> (a very nice image, btw). Wouldn't it make more sense if he was having a
> great time while running and then realized he could have an even better
> time with Spock than if he was having a rotten time while running
> because the women are so unappealing that he turns to Spock? Makes it
> seem like, well, at least he's better than all that other nastiness.
> That's what I mean by it demeans Spock--denies the power of his
> sexiness.
Woah, there. I think he *is* having a good time with the women. In fact, I
think he's having a better time than he would have with Spock.
Hunh?
That's right. I think it's easier for him to put on the charm and score a
luscious native babe than to sweat out a real relationship with Spock.
Think about it: Spock cannot be a one-time thing. Unlike the women, who
change every week, Spock is always there. He's a necessary element of Kirk's
life, along with McCoy and the ship. There is some evidence to suggest that he
is a pair-bonder, an all-or-nothing man. At the same time he's intoxicatingly
attractive. So it's a big problem. To have him means a real commitment, and
commitments are painful, chronic conditions. I see this as being a central
hurdle for K/S.
Jesus, I should go write some fanfic already.
> So where are these stories? The ones that are going to persuade me that
> this is a valid possibility for Kirk?
I'll see if I can provide them...and if I do, I *will* mark them. :)
In some ways I think we're arguing semantics -- that your version of the
character and mine are closer than they seem. Maybe it's that my experience
with infidelity lead me to think it's symptomatic of personality problems,
rather than a simple life choice. But I don't buy the "It was never like this
with a woman" line either. No rock is going to hit JTK on the head and
persuade him that he was queer all along. And the fanfic I like best is the
fanfic that makes use of precisely those weird grey gaps in between canon and
the slash reading of canon, the contradictions in the characters, the fact
that *nothing* in any relationship is ever terribly simple.
-Brancher, off to write some ambiguous fiction.
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Jungle Kitty
Subject:
Re: Ranting (but hopefully not raving)
Date:
From:
Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
Organization:
All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.uu.net,
Bran...@brown.edu
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
Bran...@brown.edu wrote:
> Woah, there. I think he *is* having a good time with the women. In
> fact, I
> think he's having a better time than he would have with Spock.
> Hunh?
> That's right. I think it's easier for him to put on the charm and
> score a
> luscious native babe than to sweat out a real relationship with Spock.
> Think about it: Spock cannot be a one-time thing. Unlike the women,
> who
> change every week, Spock is always there. He's a necessary element of
> Kirk's
> life, along with McCoy and the ship. There is some evidence to suggest
> that he
> is a pair-bonder, an all-or-nothing man. At the same time he's
> intoxicatingly
> attractive. So it's a big problem. To have him means a real
> commitment, and
> commitments are painful, chronic conditions. I see this as being a
> central
> hurdle for K/S.
> Jesus, I should go write some fanfic already.
Yes, do it! I would love to see someone tackle the idea of Kirk being
wary of a real relationship. And in the way you suggest--yes I want to
be faithful, but god, they're throwing themselves at me--mmmm. Kirk as
rock star. (I always think they go after it because it's there. Well,
that and the drugs probably make just about anyone look appealing.)
>
> > So where are these stories? The ones that are going to persuade me
> that
> > this is a valid possibility for Kirk?
>
> I'll see if I can provide them...and if I do, I *will* mark them. :)
> In some ways I think we're arguing semantics -- that your version of
> the
> character and mine are closer than they seem.
I think you're right.
> Maybe it's that my
> experience
> with infidelity lead me to think it's symptomatic of personality
> problems,
> rather than a simple life choice. But I don't buy the "It was never
> like this
> with a woman" line either. No rock is going to hit JTK on the head and
> persuade him that he was queer all along. And the fanfic I like best
> is the
> fanfic that makes use of precisely those weird grey gaps in between
> canon and
> the slash reading of canon, the contradictions in the characters, the
> fact
> that *nothing* in any relationship is ever terribly simple.
Exactly. And the I-never-really-wanted-those-women is not just
simple--it's simple-minded. Kirk and Spock have to deal with the reality
of K's past (and Spock's, although no one seems to worry much about
that) so deal with it. Don't just blow it off.
Please write that story.
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
--------------------------------------
It's not your grandmother's Star Trek.
--------------------------------------
--