Newbie Questions

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Raku2u

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Nov 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/7/99
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Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:
07 Nov 1999 04:42:30 GMT
From:
rak...@aol.comchthwn (Raku2u)
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AOL http://www.aol.com
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Jungle Kitty wrote:

>I keep reminding myself of my 8th grade teacher who said, "Don't worry
>about being 'creative.' If it's new to you, it's creative." But there it
>is. Reading stories that are about the themes I'm struggling with is
>definitely counter-productive for me.

Yeah, that's a problem that's gradually grown on me. At first, I read all the
K/S I could find, as I was writing it. But as I started exploring more ideas
on my own, and pitching out junk in canon that was in my way, I found that
reading stories in the same pairing I was working on began to create blocks and
doubts. I started writing Tuvok/Paris partly because there wasn't any that I
could find at that time, so it was a free field. Same thing with my recent
Chekov story.

But this means I do miss a lot of good stuff by fellow KS'ers; I try to
backtrack and read things I had to pass over, when I'm no longer working in the
area they were toying with. Others have said the same to me, that they wanted
to read story X or Y but it was too close to a pairing they were working on, or
a setting, or whatever. I assume this is a pretty common situation for
writers.

raku

-----
"The Learning Curve," hypertext TOS story, is online at
http://members.aol.com/U2ukar
Other stories and some by a few friends online at
http://members.aol.com/Raku2u
-----

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Fizzbin

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Nov 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/9/99
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Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:
Sun, 07 Nov 1999 09:13:00 -0600
From:
Fizzbin <fizz...@att.net>
Organization:
Ha!

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Judygran wrote:
>
>the concept of the bond-as-pipeline has been around practically
> forever in fan fic, and I think the idea probably occurred to different fans
> independently. It's one of those ur-phenomena of science fiction that seems to
> be embedded in our collective unconscious.

Oooo! Teasing my anthropologist soul with words like
"ur-phenomena!"

But, I think you hit something squarely on the head there.
Trek, especially TOS as it has evolved in fandom, has a
distinctly mythic cast to it. And, because it was
Roddenberry's original intention to play with our
perceptions of the human condition, themes and motifs will
keep resurfacing in fanfic, independently "invented" by the
mythic imagination of the very human writers. To me, it
seems to be a sort of "dreamtime" shared by Trek fans, where
things like caves and shuttlecraft and pipeline bondings
populate the mythic landscape.

"Canon" is a chimera. From the time an image or
vocalization leaves the screen, it is worked and reworked by
the imagination of the fans to fit both personal and popular
visions. And, because we are all human, entities and
self-identified hybrids notwithstanding, we tend to work
over these ideas in similar ways with many individuals
reaching similar interpretations. At the same time, the
individual writer brings to their own interpretation all
their own baggage: personal, cultural, and human.

For myself, I most like to see the interplay at work between
personal and collective mythologies -- that's where the
surprises and the innovations arise.

[I do hope that made some sense -- I've got the flu and may
just be raving at this point.]

--
Fizzbin
fizz...@att.net
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!" - Tom Lehrer

Gamin Davis

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Nov 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/9/99
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Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:
8 Nov 1999 02:07:37 GMT
From:
arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)
Organization:
Creative Network Concepts, Inc.

To:
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Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
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mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU (Mary Ellen Curtin) wrote in
<38249d02...@news.mindspring.com>:
>I use "deuterocanonical" (a term from biblical studies) to refer
>to material that comes from TPTB but is not on screen. So in
>TOS (which I know best), for instance, the word t'hy'la is
>deuterocanonical, from the STUMP novelization.

"STUMP"? I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what does the
"U" stand for?

>The silver birds
>of Vulcan are deuterocanonical, from an unfilmed part of Harlan
>Ellison's "City on the Edge of Forever" script.

Yeah, I wrote a story based on that in which those silver birds
featured fairly prominently...

>"Fanon" is an idea that fans generally find useful or acceptable.
>Spock has two ridges in fanon, and sandalwood is a Vulcan

Say what? I never read any reference to Spock having "ridges", and
what would the "usefulness" of this be? (Perchance this is something that
has only been featured in K/S stories, which is the only reason I can think
of that I wouldn't have heard of it?) (Totally irrelevant side note: I'm
inclined to believe Vulcans would not be affected by aphrodisiacs, since
their body chemistry is so different from Humans'.)
Gamin

Gamin Davis

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Nov 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/9/99
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Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:
8 Nov 1999 02:21:12 GMT

From:
arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)
Organization:
Creative Network Concepts, Inc.
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1


Ista...@aol.com wrote in <3824a479...@news.mindspring.com>:
>I would be interested to hear from some of the more experienced fanfic
>writers? When is using something from another person's story taking
>advantage of 'fanon' and when is it plagirism??

I guess I've been writing fan-fiction long enough to answer this
question (does writing since '80 qualify me as having enough experience?).
IMO it's not plagiarism if (1) if it was *not* done with a deliberate,
conscious intent to steal something from someone else (IOW, malice
aforethought), or if (2) you have that person's permission. If either of
these conditions are present and somebody uses something I've done in one
of my stories, I'm inclined to think along the lines of "imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery" and feel complimented, whether we're talking
"fanon" or anything else. (I have been known to give fan-writing friends
permission to use specific things in their stories if they ask first,
though I prefer to be credited somewhere in the margins or something as
coming up with the idea.) As always, YMMV.

Jungle Kitty

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 00:13:38 -0800
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

Robin wrote:

> This is why my last "Nasty Spock" story got stopped halfway through.
> The first
> bit was set in this bar, and then I read Jungle Kitty's "Golden Boy".
> Oh.
> Oops. Gosh. <g>.

A Robin story? Set in a celester bar? And it's not going to happen?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Say it ain't so.

Robin, I hope you will write this (1) b/c I want to read it <g> and (2)
it will affirm my trembling belief that, with time, the story that has
clogged my brain will let go and I'll be able to write my piece.

--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty

---------------------------------------------
"Isn't it interesting that the same people
who laugh at science fiction listen to
weather forecasts and economists?"

- Kelvin Throop III
---------------------------------------------

Mary Ellen Curtin

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:42:32 -0500
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>

Robs: you wrote:
>This is why my last "Nasty Spock" story got stopped halfway through.
The first
>bit was set in this bar, and then I read Jungle Kitty's "Golden Boy".
Oh.
>Oops. Gosh. <g>.

So? Unless you were thinking of something pretty much
*exactly* like the centerpiece "Show" from that story (which
is hard to imagine), why not? Certainly there have been
plenty of "Kirk or Spock as prostitute" stories in zines --
far more than a logical person would expect, in fact. I'd
really like to see your take on this theme, which has a
certain timeless, lascivious appeal.

Just be sure to use plenty of lube, OK? I've been reading
a bunch of old zines looking for FSP material, and I've just
about had it with "I shall prove my love by having you fuck
me dry" stories. Wake up and smell the Astroglide, boys.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/goodbook
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"Guns, Germs and Steel," by Jared Diamond

ZsPet

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: "ZsPet" <zurell...@hotmail.com>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:55:02 -0600
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "ZsPet" <zurell...@hotmail.com>

Others have said the same to me, that they wanted
> to read story X or Y but it was too close to a pairing they were
working on, or
> a setting, or whatever. I assume this is a pretty common situation
for
> writers.
>
> raku

I am beginning to understand this. I had a storyline bouncing around
in my head a long time before I even knew ASC existed. Then, when I
found ya'll (thank God) I was reading all the K/S I could find. I
still enjoy reading them all, and I will still write the same story I
was going to even though similarities exist. Someone said back a few
posts that after all, there are only so many ways to fit A into B. So
I guess the similarities are going to be there no matter what.
Anyway, I have enjoyed reading this thread, it's help me a lot.

ZsPet

Robin

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: "Robin" <rob...@s054.aone.net.au>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:46:32 +1100
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Robin" <rob...@s054.aone.net.au>

From: Mary Ellen Curtin <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
> So? Unless you were thinking of something pretty much
> *exactly* like the centerpiece "Show" from that story (which
> is hard to imagine), why not? Certainly there have been
> plenty of "Kirk or Spock as prostitute" stories in zines --
> far more than a logical person would expect, in fact. I'd
> really like to see your take on this theme, which has a
> certain timeless, lascivious appeal.
>

Not "Kirk as a prostitute". More like Slutty Kirk.

> Just be sure to use plenty of lube, OK? .
>
Lube will be dripping off the walls before I'm done with them <g>. BTW, I had
the opportunity of using a new lube on the weekend called "Leather Lube". It
smelled like leather... well, for a little while at least. Worked ok.

Robin

Karmen Ghia

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:11:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Karmen Ghia <ghiafi...@yahoo.com>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Karmen Ghia <ghiafi...@yahoo.com>

>
> In the interests of unclogging your brain, I'll go
> have another look at the
> Slutty Kirk story then. I'm in a bit of mean mood,
> so Spock will undoubtedly
> got nasty too.
>
Ooooooooh. Christmas is early this year.

Karmen


=====
Karmen Ghia - After The Rescue
http://members.tripod.com/karmen_ghia/
Society for Slash Diversity and COCO CHANNEL
http://geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/8831
Leave your mark! Sign the Guestbooks!

Robin

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:49:14 +1100

Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Robin" <rob...@s054.aone.net.au>

From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

> A Robin story? Set in a celester bar? And it's not going to happen?
>
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
>
> Say it ain't so.
>

<g> Gosh, that sounds like begging to me. Well near enough.

> Robin, I hope you will write this (1) b/c I want to read it <g> and (2)
> it will affirm my trembling belief that, with time, the story that has
> clogged my brain will let go and I'll be able to write my piece.

In the interests of unclogging your brain, I'll go have another look at the


Slutty Kirk story then. I'm in a bit of mean mood, so Spock will undoubtedly
got nasty too.

Robin

Mary Ellen Curtin

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:23:55 -0500
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>

>Not "Kirk as a prostitute". More like Slutty Kirk.

er -- is there any other?;-P

>BTW, I had
>the opportunity of using a new lube on the weekend called "Leather
Lube". It
>smelled like leather... well, for a little while at least. Worked ok.

Latex-compatible? Runny or gloppy? The Lube Lab wants
to know.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/goodbook
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"Guns, Germs and Steel," by Jared Diamond

Robin

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: "Robin" <rob...@s054.aone.net.au>
To: <asc...@onelist.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:59:52 +1100

Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Robin" <rob...@s054.aone.net.au>

From: Mary Ellen Curtin <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>

>Robin:


> >BTW, I had
> >the opportunity of using a new lube on the weekend called "Leather
> Lube". It
> >smelled like leather... well, for a little while at least. Worked ok.
>
> Latex-compatible? Runny or gloppy? The Lube Lab wants
> to know.

Hmmm. Clear and slippery and not tacky when it dried. Fairly viscous, like
half set jello, and in a flip top lid bottle. Much better than a creamy lube
used earlier. But it's not as good as Astroglide. There was another lube I've
used once, forget the name, Silk something I think. It was fucking great.
Gosh. So slippery you couldn't squeeze your thumb and forefinger together at
all hard. Expensive, but worth every drop.

Robin

Laura Jacquez Valentine

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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Date: 8 Nov 1999 13:31:16 -0500
From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>


> From: judy...@aol.com (Judygran)
> Newsgroups: alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 20:50:41 -0500
> Organization: Better Living Thru TrekSmut http://internetdump.com/users/ascem/


>
> From: judy...@aol.com (Judygran)
>
> Subject:
> Re: Newbie Questions
> Date:

> 06 Nov 1999 23:07:46 GMT
> From:
> judy...@aol.com (Judygran)
> Organization:
> AOL http://www.aol.com


> To:
> <alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
> References:
> 1
>
>

> >Actually, I was having a discussion with
> >another newbie about whether it's best to read as much fan fiction as
> >possible before writing.
>
> I can see why new writers would want to read as much fan fic as possible before
> writing their own. But I really like the fresh perspectives of authors who
> write without having been influenced by the "received wisdom" of existing fan
> fic. So I would vote for posting your own fan fic as soon as you feel the urge
> to do so.
>
> >She wondered whether there was a danger that you would end up unconsciously
> >stealing other people's ideas after reading their stories and letting them
> >creep into your consciousness.
>
> This certainly happens, but I don't think it's necessarily regarded as a
> "danger." In Trek fiction in zines, there have been several ways that this
> traditionally has happened.
>
> One occurs when Fan B writes in Fan A's "universe." For example, Jacqueline
> Lichtenberg's "Kraith" stories attracted many other writers who, with
> Jacqueline's permission and approval, wrote their own original stories based on
> the characterizations and assumptions of Kraith.
>
> Another occurs when Fan B borrows a character created by Fan A. This, too, is
> always done with permission.
>
> The most common form of borrowing are ideas like the double ridges that "catch
> on" with other writers. No one feels the need to credit the original creator of
> the double ridges, and indeed, many contemporary writers no longer remember who
> invented them in the first place.
>

One thing that's interesting about newer fandoms is that you can often
peg these things. For example, the Sentinel canon vs. fanon page
contains initial points for such things as Blair's unreliable car.

And in Star Wars fanfic, I'm personally responsible for the convention
that Palpatine's first name is "Bob", and for Masters cutting and
braiding their Padawan's hair and weaving their own strands into the
braid ("Scissors", 09 Jun 1999).

It's interesting to watch these things spring up. I bet most of the
people who use the cutting/braiding bit of fanon now, only a few months
later, have no idea where it came from.

--laura

Islao...@aol.com

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: Islao...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:08:26 EST

To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Islao...@aol.com

In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:56:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
arkiet...@usa.net writes:

<< unfilmed part of Harlan
>Ellison's "City on the Edge of Forever" script. >>

Hey, I've always wanted to read the 'original' story that Harlan wrote. I've
seen references to it (I think it was in either Bill or Leonard's book), but
I haven't been able to find it. Anybody out there read it? Is it part of
one of Harlan's short story collections or is it in a Sci Fi collection - it
won a Hugo, didn't it? So I should be able to find it among Hugo award
winners. Can someone help???

Isla

Mary Ellen Curtin

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:32:00 -0500
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>

You can get Ellison's script, plus assorted rantings by
Harlan and others, from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565049640/

The original script isn't *nearly* as good as Ellison thinks it
is. In this book, D.C. Fontana reveals that she did the re-write
to produce the filmed version, which was a forehead-slap
revelation for me: "Duh! Strong female character! Who else
would have written it?" In Ellison's version, Edith Keeler shows
that she's the woman of Kirk's dreams by baking him a cake.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/goodbook
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"Guns, Germs and Steel," by Jared Diamond

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

ZsPet

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Nov 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/11/99
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From: "ZsPet" <zurell...@hotmail.com>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:58:23 -0600
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "ZsPet" <zurell...@hotmail.com>

Oh wow. May I quote you? I'm doing a research paper (well, actually,
I'm THINKING of doing my research paper) and loved your comments.
Hmmmm, now, how exactly will I cite you though? Fizzbin, TrekSmut,
Onelist? <<Thinking of my Prof seeing that *giggle*>>

ZsPet

> From: Fizzbin <fizz...@att.net>
> "Canon" is a chimera. From the time an image or
> vocalization leaves the screen, it is worked and reworked by
> the imagination of the fans to fit both personal and popular
> visions. And, because we are all human, entities and
> self-identified hybrids notwithstanding, we tend to work
> over these ideas in similar ways with many individuals
> reaching similar interpretations. At the same time, the
> individual writer brings to their own interpretation all
> their own baggage: personal, cultural, and human.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Islao...@aol.com

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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From: Islao...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:32:31 EST
To: ASC...@onelist.com

Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Islao...@aol.com

In a message dated 11/9/1999 1:07:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu writes:

<<
You can get a "quality paperback" which has several versions of the
script in it, along with Harlan ranting about Roddenberry in typical
Harlan style. The final version that Harlan turned in is wonderful, and
contains a line I really wish they'd left in:

Spock: I am a Vulcan, not a neuter. I understand very well.
>>

wow!!! that's what I want. I'll look for it on Amazon.com,

isla

Laura Jacquez Valentine

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
Date: 9 Nov 1999 13:08:45 -0500

From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>


> From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
> Cc: "islaofhope" <islao...@aol.com>
> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:32:00 -0500
>
> From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
>
> You can get Ellison's script, plus assorted rantings by
> Harlan and others, from Amazon:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565049640/
>
> The original script isn't *nearly* as good as Ellison thinks it
> is. In this book, D.C. Fontana reveals that she did the re-write
> to produce the filmed version, which was a forehead-slap
> revelation for me: "Duh! Strong female character! Who else
> would have written it?" In Ellison's version, Edith Keeler shows
> that she's the woman of Kirk's dreams by baking him a cake.

Well, that's true, but I think Harlan had a better grip on Spock at some
points than Fontana (I know, heresy...).

--laura

Jungle Kitty

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:14:29 -0800
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

skazki wrote:

> 'Homage', JK, 'homage'.

Have you ever seen the Fox show, "Action"? It's full of great stuff, but
I roared when the pimp insisted that his actions weren't a rip-off of
Quentin Tarantino. It was an homage.
>
> Which reminds me, I read somewhere that 'plagiarism' actually derives
> from
> the latin (? I'm no classicist) for slave stealing.

Raku? Is this true?

> On that basis, I'd
> think
> this group would be very much in favour of a little plagiarism now and
> then.

Take my slaves. Please. :-D

---------------------------------------------
"Isn't it interesting that the same people
who laugh at science fiction listen to
weather forecasts and economists?"

- Kelvin Throop III
---------------------------------------------

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

skazki

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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From: "skazki" <ska...@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:02:22 -0000

Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "skazki" <ska...@globalnet.co.uk>

Jungle Kitty wrote:

> I'd love to see this used in a story. But I guess that would be
> plagiarism. Damn.

'Homage', JK, 'homage'.

Which reminds me, I read somewhere that 'plagiarism' actually derives from
the latin (? I'm no classicist) for slave stealing. On that basis, I'd think


this group would be very much in favour of a little plagiarism now and then.

Jane

Laura Jacquez Valentine

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
Date: 9 Nov 1999 15:40:57 -0500

From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>


> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:53:05 -0800
> From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
>
> From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>


>
> Laura Jacquez Valentine wrote:
>
> > The final version that Harlan turned in is wonderful,
> > and
> > contains a line I really wish they'd left in:
> >
> > Spock: I am a Vulcan, not a neuter. I understand very well.
>

> I'd love to see this used in a story. But I guess that would be
> plagiarism. Damn.
>

I've been thinking of using it, with proper credit given in the AUthor's
Notes. I *love* that line.

--laura

Jungle Kitty

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:53:05 -0800
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

Laura Jacquez Valentine wrote:

> The final version that Harlan turned in is wonderful,
> and
> contains a line I really wish they'd left in:
>
> Spock: I am a Vulcan, not a neuter. I understand very well.

I'd love to see this used in a story. But I guess that would be
plagiarism. Damn.

--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty

---------------------------------------------
"Isn't it interesting that the same people
who laugh at science fiction listen to
weather forecasts and economists?"

- Kelvin Throop III
---------------------------------------------

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Laura Jacquez Valentine

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
Date: 9 Nov 1999 13:07:04 -0500

From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>


> From: Islao...@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:08:26 EST
>
> From: Islao...@aol.com
>

> In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:56:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> arkiet...@usa.net writes:
>
> << unfilmed part of Harlan
> >Ellison's "City on the Edge of Forever" script. >>
>
> Hey, I've always wanted to read the 'original' story that Harlan wrote. I've
> seen references to it (I think it was in either Bill or Leonard's book), but
> I haven't been able to find it. Anybody out there read it? Is it part of
> one of Harlan's short story collections or is it in a Sci Fi collection - it
> won a Hugo, didn't it? So I should be able to find it among Hugo award
> winners. Can someone help???
>

You can get a "quality paperback" which has several versions of the


script in it, along with Harlan ranting about Roddenberry in typical

Harlan style. The final version that Harlan turned in is wonderful, and

contains a line I really wish they'd left in:

Spock: I am a Vulcan, not a neuter. I understand very well.

--laura

Whittaker, Pat

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
From: "Whittaker, Pat" <PWhi...@cha.ab.ca>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:45:08 -0700
Subject: RE: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Whittaker, Pat" <PWhi...@cha.ab.ca>

You have to admit it *is* a good one!

Selek
pwhi...@cha.ab.ca

> ----------
> From: Laura Jacquez Valentine[SMTP:jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu]
> Reply To: ASC...@onelist.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 09 November, 1999 1:40 PM


> To: ASC...@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions
>
> From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>
>

> > Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:53:05 -0800
> > From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
> >

> > From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
> >
> > Laura Jacquez Valentine wrote:
> >

> > > The final version that Harlan turned in is wonderful,
> > > and
> > > contains a line I really wish they'd left in:
> > >
> > > Spock: I am a Vulcan, not a neuter. I understand very well.
> >

> > I'd love to see this used in a story. But I guess that would be
> > plagiarism. Damn.
> >
>

> I've been thinking of using it, with proper credit given in the AUthor's
> Notes. I *love* that line.
>

Jungle Kitty

unread,
Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:43:06 -0800
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

Laura Jacquez Valentine wrote:

> I've been thinking of using it, with proper credit given in the
> AUthor's
> Notes. I *love* that line.

*quiet, gentle gasp*

The sound that is the prelude to a purr.

---------------------------------------------
"Isn't it interesting that the same people
who laugh at science fiction listen to
weather forecasts and economists?"

- Kelvin Throop III
---------------------------------------------

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

stillwater16

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
From: "stillwater16" <stillw...@earthlink.net>
To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:22:47 -0500

Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "stillwater16" <stillw...@earthlink.net>

it is *so* cool that i've known spock for 32 years now and his character
keeps getting enriched, keeps changing, keeps getting more and more and more
wonderful.

kk, who has loved spock since the first time she saw him, and still does

--
" okay, who ate all the jelly krimpets?"
http://home.earthlink.net/~stillwater16


----- Original Message -----
From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>

To: <ASC...@onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions


> From: Laura Jacquez Valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:53:05 -0800
> > From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
> >


> > From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
> >
> > Laura Jacquez Valentine wrote:
> >

> > > The final version that Harlan turned in is wonderful,
> > > and
> > > contains a line I really wish they'd left in:
> > >
> > > Spock: I am a Vulcan, not a neuter. I understand very well.
> >
> > I'd love to see this used in a story. But I guess that would be
> > plagiarism. Damn.
> >
>

> I've been thinking of using it, with proper credit given in the AUthor's
> Notes. I *love* that line.
>

> --laura

Roisin Fraser

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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From: "Roisin Fraser" <roisin...@hotmail.com>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 14:26:57 PST
Subject: RE: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

From: "Roisin Fraser" <roisin...@hotmail.com>

Is it just me, or would that line make a great first line challenge (in the
tradition of "don't give me that bonding crap") ?

---Roisin (who is now on her fifth or sixth cup of coffee, and will probably
be bouncing off the walls before her paper is done.) :O)

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Whittaker, Pat" <PWhi...@cha.ab.ca>
Reply-To: ASC...@onelist.com
To: ASC...@onelist.com


Subject: RE: [ASCEML] Re: Newbie Questions

Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:45:08 -0700

You have to admit it *is* a good one!

Selek
pwhi...@cha.ab.ca

> ----------
> From: Laura Jacquez Valentine[SMTP:jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu]
> Reply To: ASC...@onelist.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 09 November, 1999 1:40 PM
> To: ASC...@onelist.com

Raku2u

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
to
Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:
11 Nov 1999 11:43:50 GMT
From:
rak...@aol.comchthwn (Raku2u)

Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
To:
<alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org>
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1

>>"Fanon" is an idea that fans generally find useful or acceptable.

>>Spock has two ridges in fanon, and sandalwood is a Vulcan aphrodisiac

Doc, could you name some stories in which sandalwood is an aphrodisiac?
Preferably stories older than a year or two?

thx
raku

-----
"The Learning Curve," hypertext TOS story, is online at
http://members.aol.com/U2ukar
Other stories and some by a few friends online at
http://members.aol.com/Raku2u
-----

Raku2u

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Nov 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/13/99
to
Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:
13 Nov 1999 04:59:05 GMT

From:
rak...@aol.comchthwn (Raku2u)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
To:
<alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org>
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1


>

>> Which reminds me, I read somewhere that 'plagiarism' actually derives
>> from
>> the latin (? I'm no classicist) for slave stealing.
>

>Raku? Is this true?
>
>

Yeah, plagiarism coming from plagiarius, a guy who uses a net (a plaga) for
kidnapping. I think it would be more like 'stealing people and making slaves
out of them.' I don't think there was a ton of traffic in making someone
else's slaves into your slaves.

Dawns on me the Romans were the original fanficcers, taking Greek stories and
improving on them, adding people, moving stuff around. And of course they
called it "an homage..."

Raku2u

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Nov 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/14/99
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From: rak...@aol.comchthwn (Raku2u)

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Raku2u

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Nov 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/14/99
to
From: rak...@aol.comchthwn (Raku2u)

Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:

11 Nov 1999 11:43:50 GMT


From:
rak...@aol.comchthwn (Raku2u)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
To:
<alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org>
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1

>>"Fanon" is an idea that fans generally find useful or acceptable.
>>Spock has two ridges in fanon, and sandalwood is a Vulcan aphrodisiac

Doc, could you name some stories in which sandalwood is an aphrodisiac?
Preferably stories older than a year or two?

thx

Fizzbin

unread,
Nov 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/15/99
to
Islao...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hey, I've always wanted to read the 'original' story that Harlan wrote. I've
> seen references to it (I think it was in either Bill or Leonard's book), but
> I haven't been able to find it. Anybody out there read it? Is it part of
> one of Harlan's short story collections or is it in a Sci Fi collection - it
> won a Hugo, didn't it? So I should be able to find it among Hugo award
> winners. Can someone help???

James Blish's adaptation of Ellison's script was in "Star
Trek 2", Bantam, 1968. I've never seen the original script
-- but I wouldn't be surprised that Harlan has published it
somewhere, since he's kvetched about it being butchered for
lo these many years. (And I still like the bastard.
Reminds me of Schopenhauer.)

--
Fizzbin
fizz...@att.net
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!" - Tom Lehrer

Fizzbin

unread,
Nov 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/15/99
to
ZsPet wrote:
>
> > From: Fizzbin <fizz...@att.net>
> >
> > "Canon" is a chimera. From the time an image or
> > vocalization leaves the screen, it is worked and reworked by
> > the imagination of the fans to fit both personal and popular
> > visions. And, because we are all human, entities and
> > self-identified hybrids notwithstanding, we tend to work
> > over these ideas in similar ways with many individuals
> > reaching similar interpretations. At the same time, the
> > individual writer brings to their own interpretation all
> > their own baggage: personal, cultural, and human.
>
> Oh wow. May I quote you? I'm doing a research paper (well, actually,
> I'm THINKING of doing my research paper) and loved your comments.
> Hmmmm, now, how exactly will I cite you though? Fizzbin, TrekSmut,
> Onelist? <<Thinking of my Prof seeing that *giggle*>>

Wow! A request for citation. Yeah, sure, go for it. I
think it might read: "Fizzbin," fanfic writer, Usenet.
Anthropologists often use psuedonyms for their sources, so I
don't think your professor will plotz. My only question is
how the hell do I list such a citation on my curriculum
vitae? <g>

Mark Stanley

unread,
Nov 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/16/99
to
Subject:
Re: Newbie Questions
Date:
Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:33:51 +0000
From:
Mark Stanley <mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca>
To:
"as...@earthlink.net" <as...@earthlink.net>
References:
1


Fizzbin wrote:
>
> Islao...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Hey, I've always wanted to read the 'original' story that Harlan wrote. I've
> > seen references to it (I think it was in either Bill or Leonard's book), but
> > I haven't been able to find it. Anybody out there read it? Is it part of
> > one of Harlan's short story collections or is it in a Sci Fi collection - it
> > won a Hugo, didn't it? So I should be able to find it among Hugo award
> > winners. Can someone help???
>
> James Blish's adaptation of Ellison's script was in "Star
> Trek 2", Bantam, 1968. I've never seen the original script
> -- but I wouldn't be surprised that Harlan has published it
> somewhere, since he's kvetched about it being butchered for
> lo these many years. (And I still like the bastard.
> Reminds me of Schopenhauer.)
>

I read the original script in Grade 11 English class. It wasn't
impressive enough to justify Harlan's bitching, but it was very
different, much darker.

It was dark enough that I could see why it was rewritten for the show.
It would have made a very strong original sci-fi story, if it were
rewritten to feature non-Trek characters. However, I can see why Gene
would frown upon the concept of drug abuse in his bright future, for
instance. Some of the changes needed to be made in order to fit the Trek
universe.

Mark
--
mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca

ICQ# 51278836

http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/

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