Tuppery m/m weddings

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Mary Ellen Curtin

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Aug 16, 2001, 8:55:53 AM8/16/01
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What's the worst you've come across? I recall reading a parody
where Kirk & Spock are wearing matching powder-blue tuxes --
was that based on a real <shudder> story?

I'm talking to someone in another fandom about What Not To Do
when ze gets hir guys hitched.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project

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chan...@yahoo.com

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Aug 16, 2001, 8:55:57 AM8/16/01
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--- In ASCEML@y..., "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecurtin@a...> wrote:
> What's the worst you've come across? I recall reading a parody
> where Kirk & Spock are wearing matching powder-blue tuxes --
> was that based on a real <shudder> story?
>
> I'm talking to someone in another fandom about What Not To Do
> when ze gets hir guys hitched.

You might want to send hir to send her to

http://www.invisibleplanets.com/kirk_spock/KSCliches.htm

It's pretty thorough with "worst you've come across" (not to mention
funny as hell.) Weddings and a number of "tuppery" things (if I'm
understanding the term correctly) are covered, even formal wear
(although powder blue tuxes aren't mentioned specifically).


Chanteuzi, recalling a story that ended with the Enterprise trailing a
banner that said "Just married" and glad I don't remember
what the costumes were <shudder>

mgt...@juno.com

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Aug 16, 2001, 8:56:00 AM8/16/01
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--- In ASCEML@y..., chanteuzi@y... wrote:
> http://www.invisibleplanets.com/kirk_spock/KSCliches.htm
>
> It's pretty thorough with "worst you've come across" (not to
mention
> funny as hell.)

I just took a look at this, and you're right. It's hilarious. I've
saved a copy to my fic-in-progress folder to remind me to use those
cliches very, very sparingly . . .

EmGee

ka...@ipass.net

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Aug 16, 2001, 8:56:05 AM8/16/01
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Quoting chan...@yahoo.com:

> --- In ASCEML@y..., "Mary Ellen Curtin"
<mecurtin@a...> wrote:
> > What's the worst you've come across? I recall
reading a parody
> > where Kirk & Spock are wearing matching powder-blue
tuxes --
> > was that based on a real <shudder> story?
> >

I can't remember reading any marriage stories on-line.
I'm sure there have been a couple, but I am drawing a
blank. I know I have seen a few in zines, but the ones
I recall off-hand weren't Tuppery. I will have to
page through some zines this eve.

> > I'm talking to someone in another fandom about What
Not To Do
> > when ze gets hir guys hitched.
>
> You might want to send hir to send her to
>
>
http://www.invisibleplanets.com/kirk_spock/KSCliches.htm

I will have to go check this out!

ME - are you looking for stories that were inteded to
be serious or for parody types?

Kaki

Mel Blue

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Aug 16, 2001, 10:55:09 AM8/16/01
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Ok, I'm going to show my ignorance here.

What's Tuppery?

Really want to know, it's driving me nuts.
Mel


> Quoting chan...@yahoo.com:
>
> > --- In ASCEML@y..., "Mary Ellen Curtin"
> <mecurtin@a...> wrote:
> > > What's the worst you've come across? I recall
> reading a parody
> > > where Kirk & Spock are wearing matching powder-blue
> tuxes --
> > > was that based on a real <shudder> story?
> > >
>
> I can't remember reading any marriage stories on-line.
> I'm sure there have been a couple, but I am drawing a
> blank. I know I have seen a few in zines, but the ones
> I recall off-hand weren't Tuppery. I will have to
> page through some zines this eve.
>
>
>
> > > I'm talking to someone in another fandom about What
> Not To Do
> > > when ze gets hir guys hitched.
> >
> > You might want to send hir to send her to
> >
> >
> http://www.invisibleplanets.com/kirk_spock/KSCliches.htm
>
> I will have to go check this out!
>
> ME - are you looking for stories that were inteded to
> be serious or for parody types?
>
> Kaki
>

> Messages from this list are mirrored on the ASCEM newsgroup.
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>
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hammersc

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Aug 16, 2001, 10:55:11 AM8/16/01
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>===== Original Message From "Mel Blue" <Gas...@bigpond.com> =====

>Ok, I'm going to show my ignorance here.
>
>What's Tuppery?


TupperTrek is fanfic where "at least one male character is waaay too in touch
with his feminine side." Star Trek men who are usually 'manly' get bent
completely out of character with either disgusting or humorous results,
depending on how far it goes. The adjectival form is "Tuppery." You can see
this at http://www.invisibleplanets.com/ in such stories as "Mother Knows
Best" and "Modular Mates," and, if the current "Scholarly Slash Stuff"
discussion is anything to go by, in Marshak and Culbreath's novels.

Prosperity & Longevity

SAAVANT

^".\"/."^

http://www.geocities.com/saavaant
http://saavant.tripod.com/saavant.htm

hammersc

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Aug 16, 2001, 12:55:04 PM8/16/01
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>Mmm, I always got the impression that TupperTrek was light. Could be
>full of weepy angst, but not like BDSM or something.
>
>I am not sure Marshak and Culbreath qualify as Tuppery simply because
>their work is so dark. There's nothing about cheerful suburbia in
>their work; their Kirk is less a weepy, loving, fluffy creature and
>more like a man struggling to avoid being feminized by the fact that
>everyone around him is stronger than he is, and generally failing.


Yeah, I guess you're right. I wasn't too clear on the specifics of what makes
a story "Tuppery," but now that you mention it I can see what you mean.

Alara Rogers

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Aug 16, 2001, 12:55:01 PM8/16/01
to
--- In ASCEML@y..., hammersc <hammersc@a...> wrote:
> TupperTrek is fanfic where "at least one male character is waaay
too in touch
> with his feminine side." Star Trek men who are usually 'manly' get
bent
> completely out of character with either disgusting or humorous
results,
> depending on how far it goes. The adjectival form is "Tuppery." You
can see
> this at http://www.invisibleplanets.com/ in such stories as "Mother
Knows
> Best" and "Modular Mates," and, if the current "Scholarly Slash
Stuff"
> discussion is anything to go by, in Marshak and Culbreath's novels.

Mmm, I always got the impression that TupperTrek was light. Could be

full of weepy angst, but not like BDSM or something.

I am not sure Marshak and Culbreath qualify as Tuppery simply because
their work is so dark. There's nothing about cheerful suburbia in
their work; their Kirk is less a weepy, loving, fluffy creature and
more like a man struggling to avoid being feminized by the fact that
everyone around him is stronger than he is, and generally failing.

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T'Rhys

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Aug 16, 2001, 12:55:05 PM8/16/01
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At 08:58 AM 8/16/2001 -0500, hammersc wrote:
>
>>===== Original Message From "Mel Blue" <Gas...@bigpond.com> =====
>>Ok, I'm going to show my ignorance here.
>>
>>What's Tuppery?
>
>
>TupperTrek is fanfic where "at least one male character is waaay too in
touch
>with his feminine side." Star Trek men who are usually 'manly' get bent
>completely out of character with either disgusting or humorous results,
>depending on how far it goes. The adjectival form is "Tuppery." You can see
>this at http://www.invisibleplanets.com/ in such stories as "Mother Knows
>Best" and "Modular Mates," and, if the current "Scholarly Slash Stuff"
>discussion is anything to go by, in Marshak and Culbreath's novels.
>

Not in the Marshak and Culbreath novels because I think that those were
(mostly) seriously intended. The way I understand it, TupperTrek is
deliberately using the conventions of romance novels as a mockery of that
genre. The resemblance of most M & C stories to TupperTrek is probably
purely accidental.

LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>

ka...@ipass.net

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Aug 16, 2001, 12:55:08 PM8/16/01
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Quoting Alara Rogers <al...@mindspring.com>:

I've never seen anything identified as TupperTrek that
had bdsm in it. I've definitely seen some stuff I'd
call TupperTrek that I wouldn't call light, though. If
the character(s) are very femmy or whine a lot or
simper or are so dependent on each other that you can't
believe he(they) could wipe their nose by themsleves, I
think of it as Tupper. Even if they are fighting
really bad guys or hurt badly or something else that
could make the story overall heavy.

Usually, though, if the characters are written Tuppery,
then the story reads light even if the content was
meant to be dark or angsty.

Hmmm TupperTrek bdsm - Spock weilds the whip, snapping
it loadly near Kirk. Kirk jerks in his restrains, even
though the hot pink leather was tight to start with.
He gets a teenie weenie little welt on his back. Spock
sees the red spot and bursts into tears. As he melts
into a puddle on the floor, wailing about how awful he
is, Kirk tries verbally to console him. Then starts
weeping himself as he realizes that he is tied up and
can't go hug his pookie-Spockie and make him feel
better.

OK, I will not write this story.

>
> I am not sure Marshak and Culbreath qualify as
Tuppery simply because
> their work is so dark. There's nothing about cheerful
suburbia in
> their work; their Kirk is less a weepy, loving,
fluffy creature and
> more like a man struggling to avoid being feminized
by the fact that
> everyone around him is stronger than he is, and
generally failing.

I hadn't thought of their work that way before, but I
can see how the label could fit. Kirk is surely put
into a subservient role, made to be less than normal.
And he mostly accepts it. The Kirk in those stories
does irritate me. Actually so does the Spock; I keep
expecting one of them to at least say to the other that
they must keep up appearances, but that they still
respect each other.

I loved the books, btw. Looking back I think it was
the slashy stuff I didn't realize was even sexually
nuances when I first read the books.

Kaki

mgt...@juno.com

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Aug 16, 2001, 12:55:04 PM8/16/01
to
--- In ASCEML@y..., "Alara Rogers" <alara@m...> wrote:
> I am not sure Marshak and Culbreath qualify as Tuppery simply
because
> their work is so dark. There's nothing about cheerful suburbia in
> their work; their Kirk is less a weepy, loving, fluffy creature and
> more like a man struggling to avoid being feminized by the fact
that
> everyone around him is stronger than he is, and generally failing.

I agree with this. I guess in some ways, these stories are about how
strength, or the relative lack of it, affects Kirk's perceptions of
his masculinity. If a man is weak, is he still a man? Then there's
that whole line about the rights of the original, Kirk, vs. those of
his exact-in-every-way duplicate, James.

I have a soft spot in my heart for "The Price of the Phoenix"
and "The Fate of the Phoenix." They were my introduction to slash,
though I didn't realize it at the time.

Someone here said that she couldn't understand how these novels, much
slashier than Van Hise's "Killing Time," made it through with their
slashy references intact, while Van Hise's were edited out. I think
it may be as simple as an editorial change, along with an increased
incidence of slash fanfic, by the time that "Killing Time" was
publised. Marshak and Culbreath's novels were part of the old Bantam
Books series, published in the late '70s, and Van Hise's novel was
published in 1985 as part of the numbered Pocket Books series.

Someone who's been around as long as I have, check me out on this --
in the 70s, did we even know anything about slash? Did we even use
the term? I don't think so. When was the term introduced?

EmGee

Mel Blue

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Aug 17, 2001, 12:55:55 AM8/17/01
to

Ah Ha! Now I think I get it! It's tupperware with pretty pink lids, or
matching his and her bath towels. Or should I say his and his.

> Usually, though, if the characters are written Tuppery,
> then the story reads light even if the content was
> meant to be dark or angsty.
>
> Hmmm TupperTrek bdsm - Spock weilds the whip, snapping
> it loadly near Kirk. Kirk jerks in his restrains, even
> though the hot pink leather was tight to start with.
> He gets a teenie weenie little welt on his back. Spock
> sees the red spot and bursts into tears. As he melts
> into a puddle on the floor, wailing about how awful he
> is, Kirk tries verbally to console him. Then starts
> weeping himself as he realizes that he is tied up and
> can't go hug his pookie-Spockie and make him feel
> better.

LOL!

>
> OK, I will not write this story.

Thank you! <g>


Thanks for all the answers, I had a feeling that might be it, but wasn't
sure.
Mel

hammersc

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Aug 17, 2001, 12:56:09 AM8/17/01
to
>Ah Ha! Now I think I get it! It's tupperware with pretty pink lids, or
>matching his and her bath towels. Or should I say his and his.


Actually I think it's called "Tuppertrek" because selling Tupperware was a
stereotypical activity for the cheerful suburban wife some years back-- at
least the characterizations of K and S that I've seen in Tuppertrek pretty
closely match the image I have of someone who would sell tupperware.

Prosperity & Longevity

SAAVANT

^".\"/."^

http://www.geocities.com/saavaant
http://saavant.tripod.com/saavant.htm

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

vana...@aol.com

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Aug 17, 2001, 8:55:12 AM8/17/01
to
From: hammersc <hamm...@augsburg.edu> wrote:

> TupperTrek is fanfic where "at least one male character is waaay too in
> touch with his feminine side." Star Trek men who are usually 'manly' get
bent
> completely out of character with either disgusting or humorous results,
> depending on how far it goes. The adjectival form is "Tuppery." You can
see
> this at http://www.invisibleplanets.com/ in such stories as "Mother Knows
> Best" and "Modular Mates," and, if the current "Scholarly Slash Stuff"
> discussion is anything to go by, in Marshak and Culbreath's novels.

Yeah, and the Queen of TupperTrek currently is Kaki. Jungle Kitty used
to write some, if I remember that correctly and you find some also on
the TSU homepage.

Vanasati
<delurking for a moment>

------------------------------------------------
"Never give up, never surrender"
(Galaxy Quest)
---------------------------------------------------
Visit the Forest of Tales at:
http://members.aol.com/Vanasati/
---------------------------------------------------

Mel Blue

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Aug 17, 2001, 8:55:16 AM8/17/01
to

> >Ah Ha! Now I think I get it! It's tupperware with pretty pink lids, or
> >matching his and her bath towels. Or should I say his and his.
>
>
> Actually I think it's called "Tuppertrek" because selling Tupperware was a
> stereotypical activity for the cheerful suburban wife some years back--

Buying it too! <wink> Mel

at
> least the characterizations of K and S that I've seen in Tuppertrek pretty
> closely match the image I have of someone who would sell tupperware.
>
> Prosperity & Longevity
>
> SAAVANT
>
> ^".\"/."^
>
> http://www.geocities.com/saavaant
> http://saavant.tripod.com/saavant.htm
>
>

> Messages from this list are mirrored on the ASCEM newsgroup.
> Read http://www.egroups.com/files/ASCEML/faq.txt for more
> information about your subscription to ASCEML and ASCEM.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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T'Rhys

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Aug 17, 2001, 12:55:11 PM8/17/01
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At 02:54 PM 8/16/2001 -0000, mgt...@juno.com wrote:
>
>Someone who's been around as long as I have, check me out on this --
>in the 70s, did we even know anything about slash? Did we even use
>the term?

No to both. Back then, slash was extremely underground and referred to only
with the pairing code. I think K/S, S/H (Starsky and Hutch), and B/D (Bodie
and Doyle, Professionals) were pretty much the only choices then too.

> When was the term introduced?

Early '90s? I know I didn't start hearing it regularly at the yearly con I
go to until around '92.

LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>

T'Rhys

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Aug 17, 2001, 12:55:12 PM8/17/01
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At 03:56 PM 8/16/2001 -0000, Duny...@aol.com wrote:
>
>Actually, I can think of very few m/m weddings stories in Trek,
>either online or in zines. I'm more familiar with K/S than any other
>pairing, and you'd think there would be Tupperish weddings in K/S
>since that pairing has generated its fair share of Tuppertrek. But in
>most stories I can think of, the pair never really formally
>get "married." When they are, it's almost invariably a Vulcan
>bonding, not a Human wedding. Much more often, they achieve
>their "bond" privately, by melding or have mind-blowing sex or both.
>Occasionally the bonding has a mildly ceremonial aspect (they light
>candles or watch the sunset together or something) but almost always,
>the two guys are the only ones present.
>
>Just as often, the bonding is unconscious or involuntary, or it
>happens while at least one of the parties is unaware of it. These are
>the "Look, Ma, we're bonded!" stories (and I, too, have written
>them).
>
>I wonder if there's a message in these stories about how fans feel
>about marriage, m/m, same-sex or the regular kind?

I think it was probably an unconscious effect rather than a deliberate
message in most cases. A lot of the more prolific early K/S writers and
editors were either in unhappy conventional marriages themselves (and so
were unwilling to inflict that institution on K & S), heavily into the New
Age self-empowerment occult movement (almost the entire Naked Times and As
I do Thee zine series show the influence of that era), or both.

LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>

Shay...@aol.com

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Aug 17, 2001, 6:56:00 PM8/17/01
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--- In ASCEML@y..., "T'Rhys" <tknight@i...> wrote:

> At 02:54 PM 8/16/2001 -0000, mgtrek@j... wrote:
> >
> >Someone who's been around as long as I have, check me out on this -
-
> >in the 70s, did we even know anything about slash? Did we even
use
> >the term?
>
> No to both. Back then, slash was extremely underground and referred
to only
> with the pairing code.

By the mid-'70s, slash wasn't underground. In her history of fandom,
Joan Marie Verba lists the first "aboveground" K/S zines as being
published in 1976.

> > When was the term introduced?
>
> Early '90s? I know I didn't start hearing it regularly at the
yearly con I
> go to until around '92.

I think the term "slash" dates from at least the mid-to-late
seventies -- from the days of print zines. I thought it was in
common use by the late seventies, but I don't have any
documentation. I know the term predates net fandom. My oldest
copies of =Datazine= (the fanzine adzine) are from 1986, and they use
the term slash (or "/").

T'Rhys

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Aug 18, 2001, 2:55:28 PM8/18/01
to
At 09:46 PM 8/17/2001 -0000, Shay...@aol.com wrote:
>
>By the mid-'70s, slash wasn't underground. In her history of fandom,
>Joan Marie Verba lists the first "aboveground" K/S zines as being
>published in 1976.

Published yes, but not easily or widely available the way it is now. It
wasn't as underground as before when you had to be vouched for before the
editor would trust you enough to sell you the zine, but before Datazine you
still had to go through some interesting contortions via snail mail in
order to find reliable sources (neither the Welcommittee zine directory nor
the Trekindexes by Rogow included any listings for K/S). The first zine I
got a solid lead on was Naked Times via a very circumspect three line ad in
another (gen) zine, and that was in 1979. I had been actively looking for
it for about a year since seeing a passing mention of it in yet another gen
zine's editorial column (forgot which one). An old Star Trek Buyer's Guide
I have (1980) does list some K/S zines, but doesn't identify them as such,
so even then you pretty much had to know exactly which zine you were
looking for in order to find it and it was my experience that established
K/S fen didn't give that information out to just anyone who asked for it.

>
>I think the term "slash" dates from at least the mid-to-late
>seventies -- from the days of print zines. I thought it was in
>common use by the late seventies, but I don't have any
>documentation. I know the term predates net fandom. My oldest
>copies of =Datazine= (the fanzine adzine) are from 1986, and they use
>the term slash (or "/").
>

Yes, the 'slash' or virgule was *used* but my point was that I didn't hear
the genre being regularly *called* that until much later.

LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>

Shay...@aol.com

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Aug 18, 2001, 8:55:05 PM8/18/01
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--- In ASCEML@y..., "T'Rhys" <tknight@i...> wrote:

But you found a K/S zine advertised in a genzine in 1979. That's
pretty "out," if you ask me.

I started buying zines in 1979, and didn't have any trouble finding
K/S. Even though I didn't seek it out. (I wasn't old enough to buy
adult zines, and wasn't particularly interested in K/S anyway, but
flyers advertising K/S zines would be included with the zines I did
buy. And I knew about the existence of slash zines even before I
started buying zines.)

> Yes, the 'slash' or virgule was *used* but my point was that I
didn't hear
> the genre being regularly *called* that until much later.

I did. And I asked a couple of my older friends who've been in
fandom a long time, and they, too, remember hearing the word "slash"
early on. One says it's been used since the mid-'70s, the other that
it was already commonly used in 1981, when she became active in
fandom.

Examples from Universal Translator, ca. 1985: "No slash,
please." "Slash will be judged on its own merit." (With no
explanation of what "slash" meant; obviously, they expected people to
know, so it had been in use for awhile by then.)

I also remember an argument in a letterzine from the mid-'80s where
some fans didn't like the idea of "slash" being used to refer to
f/f. They thought it should be m/m only, and wanted f/f fans to come
up with some other term for their genre.

I don't have any letterzines, etc., from earlier than the mid-'80s,
but I do recall the word "slash" being used before then. Slash,
after all, is a very useful word. By the time Starsky and Hutch and
Star Wars came out, fandom was diversifying, and "K/S" couldn't be
used as the name of the genre. Not to mention that K/S and K-S were
awkward terms to use, when speaking (as opposed to writing). And
slash has an obvious adjective: slashy. As in, "Diane Duane's 'Door
Into Fire' is so slashy." You couldn't say it's K/S-y, because it
isn't. It's slashy.

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