Pronouns
Mary Ellen Curtin
"Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
To:
<as...@earthlink.net>
Cc:
"J.Jon Kramer" <jo...@best.com>, "Raku" <Rak...@aol.com>,
"Sydvick" <Syd...@aol.com>,
"T'Pat--Differently-humoured entity" <tpa...@yahoo.com>,
"Rae Trail" <rae_...@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Pronouns
Date:
Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:00:25 -0500
Dear entities and others:
I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
"squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
you guys feel about sie vs. s/he? I find I'm using the
neuter pronoun more and more in what is so laughingly
called Real Life these days, because it's so *handy*.
yours in compulsive laziness,
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"Bleak House," by Charles Dickens
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Pamela Estrada
"Pamela Estrada" <re4...@navix.net>
To:
"ASCEM" <as...@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:36:55 -0600
Mary Ellen Curtin wrote in message
<36b744cd...@news.watervalley.net>...
>From:
> "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject:
> Pronouns
> Date:
> Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:00:25 -0500
>
>
>Dear entities and others:
>
>I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
>and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
>Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
>"squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
>you guys feel about sie vs. s/he? I find I'm using the
>neuter pronoun more and more in what is so laughingly
>called Real Life these days, because it's so *handy*.
>
>yours in compulsive laziness,
>
>Mary Ellen
>Doctor Science, MA
> - - - - - - - - -
>Good Book of the Day:
>"Bleak House," by Charles Dickens
Mary Ellen,
Oh my gosh, here I go, responding to a comment and not a story.
I think I understand your question about the pronouns s/he, however I
find it odd that the question arises in regards to the Star Trek
Universe. When Troi was in command of the bridge on TNG ep "Disaster"
didn't the others (Ro and O'Brien)reply "Yes Sir" when she issued an
order? There are other instances when women in command are
acknowledged as 'Sir'. No insult was intended and none was taken, at
least that I could see. I remember Janeway stating she didn't like to
be addressed as "Sir" however, I do remember times in the early eps
that she was addressed as such.
Oh my gosh, I've looked at this all wrong. I can see from a writer's
POV this could be crucial to the story. As one who reads, I don't
think it's my place to decide. However, I wouldn't have known what
sie
was if I hadn't read your message. (I do think I would have caught on
though) Make yourself happy. As long as a writer writes and is
happy,
I'm happy.
Thanks for letting me babble.
Pam
Mary Ellen Curtin wrote in message
<36b744cd...@news.watervalley.net>...
>From:
> "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject:
> Pronouns
> Date:
> Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:00:25 -0500
>
>
>Dear entities and others:
>
>I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
>and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
>Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
>"squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
>you guys feel about sie vs. s/he? I find I'm using the
>neuter pronoun more and more in what is so laughingly
>called Real Life these days, because it's so *handy*.
>
>yours in compulsive laziness,
>
>Mary Ellen
>Doctor Science, MA
> - - - - - - - - -
>Good Book of the Day:
>"Bleak House," by Charles Dickens
Mary Ellen,
Oh my gosh, here I go, responding to a comment and not a story.
I think I understand your question about the pronouns s/he, however I
find it odd that the question arises
in regards to the Star Trek Universe. When Troi was in command of the
bridge on TNG ep "Disaster"
didn't the others (Ro and O'Brien)reply "Yes Sir" when she issued an
order? There are other instances
when women in command are acknowledged as 'Sir'. No insult was
intended and none was taken, at
least that I could see. I remember Janeway stating she didn't like to
be addressed as "Sir" however, I do
remember times in the early eps that she was addressed as such.
Oh my gosh, I've looked at this all wrong. I can see from a writer's
POV this could be crucial to the
story. As one who reads, I don't think it's my place to decide.
However, I wouldn't have known what
sie was if I hadn't read your message. (I do think I would have
caught on though) Make yourself
happy. As long as a writer writes and is happy, I'm happy.
Thanks for letting me babble.
Pam
Arachnethe2
alt-startrek-creati...@uunet.uu.net
Date:
Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:06:16 +0100
From:
Arachnethe2 <Arach...@darmstadt.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Pronouns
Organization:
OMNILINK -- your link to the Net
Mary Ellen Curtin schrieb:
> From:
> "Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
> To:
> <as...@earthlink.net>
> Cc:
> "J.Jon Kramer" <jo...@best.com>, "Raku" <Rak...@aol.com>,
> "Sydvick" <Syd...@aol.com>,
> "T'Pat--Differently-humoured entity" <tpa...@yahoo.com>,
> "Rae Trail" <rae_...@yahoo.com>
> Subject:
> Pronouns
> Date:
> Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:00:25 -0500
>
> Dear entities and others:
>
> I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
> and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
> Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
> "squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
> you guys feel about sie vs. s/he?
For me, I feel a little disturbed by this. In german language'sie'
means
she in singular and they in plural. It is also used
if I'm speaking to a strange person, to keep
professionality, politness and distance.
A.
OdoGoddess
<alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org>
Date:
2 Feb 1999 20:59:14 GMT
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
From:
odogo...@aol.com.NOspam (OdoGoddess)
Subject:
Re: Pronouns
Mary Ellen wrote:
>I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
>and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
>Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
>"squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
>you guys feel about sie vs. s/he? I find I'm using the
>neuter pronoun more and more in what is so laughingly
>called Real Life these days, because it's so *handy*.
Well, I tend to think of/use "hir" for him/her when it comes to my
gender-neutral on-line friends. That is because one of the TOS
novelist's used
it (was that Diane Duane?) and the word both intrigued and delighted
me. I
liked the idea of a culture where gender was not a priority. So sie
for s/he
seems fine to me.
(-|-)* Judith
member of RAFL & ORACLE, RAFL-AFF list mom
"We aren't everybody's cup of tea." Rene Auberjonois, TV Guide
My fic: members.aol.com/OdoGoddess/Tales.html
Odo's PADD: members.aol.com/LuvDS9/OdosPADD.html
* remove .NOspam to send e-mail
J.Jon Kramer
Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:21:48 -0800
From:
"J.Jon Kramer" <jo...@best.com>
Organization:
Organization? What organization?
To:
Mary Ellen Curtin <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
CC:
as...@earthlink.net, Raku <Rak...@aol.com>, Sydvick
<Syd...@aol.com>,
"T'Pat--Differently-humoured entity" <tpa...@yahoo.com>,
Rae Trail <rae_...@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Hello, Mary Ellen,
Yes, "sie" is in common usage throughout the net. Makes
sense to follow the herd, but still...
For me, "sie" still implies that there is a particular
gender, while s/he implies a stronger case of either/or. To
me it implies a subtle distinction of intention, one in
which the intent is to conceal gender (sie), the other is to
side-step? mix-up? play with? gender assumptions (s/he). I
figure this interpretation isn't going to be the same for
everyone, it's just my two bits. As to pronunciation of
s/he, oddly, I waver. I either pronounce it "see" (same way
I pronounce "sie") or (heh heh) "sidhe" (which is verbalized
as "shee").
If you're going to make changes, I personally would suggest
"zie" instead of "sie" as a s/he substitute, because all
this sounds so much like "she" and hints at a female gender
more than it does a male.
But then again, there is that particular charm of adopting
the terminology everyone else is using. There's also the
charm of being a rogue terminology user, which works as long
as you're consistent. I mention the California town of
Boonville, which made up its own language (known as "Boont")
in the earlier part of this century. They didn't go much
farther than keeping the basic structure of English and
simply changing the words (a cup of coffee = a horn of
Zeese) but in so doing they were consistent in their
language usage, which was spoken and understood nowhere
else. We could therefore have our own limited "Boont"
language here, consisting of only two or three words. ;-)
Whatever you feel comfortable with, Mary Ellen. You have my
support.
cheers
jonk
Rae Trail
Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:36:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Cc:
as...@earthlink.net
Mary Ellen,
I too second Jonk's opinion, and T'pat's sentiment.
Rae
(Bleak House... brrrrr. Good one.)
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
T'Pat--Differently-Humoured Entity
Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:03:16 -0800 (PST)
From:
"T'Pat--Differently-Humoured Entity" <tpa...@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Pronouns
To:
"J.Jon Kramer" <jo...@best.com>,
<Syd...@aol.com>,
"T'Pat--Differently-humoured entity" <tpa...@yahoo.com>,
Rae Trail <rae_...@yahoo.com>
Sorry, guys, Entities, whatever!, I'm in a rush,
this week.
Mary Ellen, I second jonk's opinion.
In any case, it's *words*: as long as the feelings
and meanings associated with them are not offensive,
[as I know this being your case ;-) ]
whatever makes you comfortable will make my day.
We know who we are, do we not?
T'Pat
==
`Different' is normal. Normal? Now, *that* is different. T'Pat
>:-j
Fizzbin
Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:54:58 +0000
From:
Fizzbin <fiz...@my-dejanews.com>
To:
as...@earthlink.net
CC:
Mary Ellen Curtin <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.edu>
Subject:
Re: Pronouns
Mary Ellen Curtin wrote:
>
> I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
> and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
> Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
> "squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
> you guys feel about sie vs. s/he?
As a lurker/reader, I vote si, si for "sie" -- everytime I
see "s/he", I keep thinking it's a slash code. You have no
*idea* how many times I've asked myself what "s" is this?
And is this "he" an "m" or some character I just don't know
about??!!! Stop the madness!
About the "squick" thing. I never saw it in print before I
flew in here, but I knew exactly what it meant the first
time I did. Gawd! I love an effective portemanteau!
--
Fizzbin the Not Especially Brillig
fiz...@my-dejanews.com
=======================
Greywolf
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Wed, 03 Feb 1999 03:01:31 -0800
From:
Greywolf <grey...@snowcrest.net>
To:
as...@earthlink.net
References:
1
OdoGoddess wrote:
Mary Ellen wrote:
> >I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
> >and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
> >Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
> >"squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
> >you guys feel about sie vs. s/he? I find I'm using the
> >neuter pronoun more and more in what is so laughingly
> >called Real Life these days, because it's so *handy*.
>
> Well, I tend to think of/use "hir" for him/her when it comes to my
> gender-neutral on-line friends. That is because one of the TOS
> novelist's used
> it (was that Diane Duane?) and the word both intrigued and delighted
> me. I
> liked the idea of a culture where gender was not a priority. So sie
> for s/he
> seems fine to me.
Sie I don't use because like Arachnethe2 said, it has already a
different meaning, in German. And my mom knows German so am a little
familiar with it. For me I use one of two -- for him/her I use hir,
likewise for his/hers I use hir, and for she/he I will sometimes use
lom, which is something we invented in the Santa Barbara telecom
community about 14 or 15 years ago. Dunno if it ever caught on anywhere
else or not, but for a while it was all over our own weird little corner
of cyberspace. I like it because you get *no* clue at all from that
one.
And of course if writing about aliens as don't have genders, "it" works
just fine.
Is, I would think, a matter of personal preference, rather than strict
custom.
> (-|-)* Judith
Greywolf the Wanderer
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Interested in the ASCEM(L) Round Robin? There's still time!
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SAMK
Re: [ASCEML] Re: Pronouns
Date:
Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:47:24 -0600
From:
SAMK <sa...@inil.com>
To:
as...@earthlink.net
References:
1
> If you're going to make changes, I personally would suggest
> "zie" instead of "sie" as a s/he substitute, because all
> this sounds so much like "she" and hints at a female gender
> more than it does a male.
I like "zie" better than "sie" as well, but I would really like
to be using one or t'other.
SAMK
sa...@inil.com
Raku2u
Re: Pronouns
Date:
4 Feb 1999 01:40:00 GMT
From:
rak...@aol.combunifufu (Raku2u)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
To:
<alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org>
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
I agree with Arachnethe2 that sie reminds me a lot of German. Personally I'd
rather be called something else; German class was not the bang-happiest period
in school.
raku the genderless
Ellen Lewis
Re: ASCEML - Re: Pronouns
Date:
Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:20:42 -0800 (PST)
From:
Arac...@webtv.net (Ellen Lewis)
To:
as...@earthlink.net
I think I agree with Odogoddess on this one. Just for something to do,
after I read Mary Ellen's post, I did a little research. After an hour
of looking, I'd found exactly two neutral personal pronouns, neither of
them English.
Malagay izy
Aramaic o
Unless we want to have to explain our terminology to every newbie on the
block, we should stick with s/he and hir. At least these are
self-defining.
We humans (and others <g>), have been describing our world using
ourselves as the yardstick for over 25,000 years. We don't have much use
for neutral pronouns. We even assign genders to inanimate objects. I've
owned four cars in my life, and all of them have had names; they've also
had genders. Same with my stuffed animals, when I was younger. Hell, I
even name my houseplants! The technical term is anthropomorphizing;
assigning human characteristics to non-human objects, alive or not.
We already have s/he and hir, words Diane Duane first used in her ST
novel "The Wounded Sky." We could agree to *pronounce* s/he as "see."
Mary Ellen is right, that is a tough word to pronounce as written. I've
always pronounced hir as "here," anyway.
That's my .02 worth on it. YMMV
Ellen
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The older I get, the less I trust technology.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Speed...@aol.com
Re: [ASCEML] Re: Pronouns
Date:
Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:39:40 EST
From:
Speed...@aol.com
To:
as...@earthlink.net
LOL, Raku -- German class was the worst experience of my academic life.
Speedo
Jon Andersen
Re: Pronouns
Date:
4 Feb 1999 14:55:19 GMT
From:
jand...@mail.usyd.edu.au (Jon Andersen)
Organization:
The University of Sydney, Australia
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
"Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU> writes:
> Subject:
> Pronouns
>Dear entities and others:
>I've been using s/he as the entity pronoun for a while,
>and pronouncing two syllables is starting to bore me.
>Over on alt.sex.bondage (where I was finding info on
>"squick") I notice they're using sie, instead. How do
>you guys feel about sie vs. s/he? I find I'm using the
>neuter pronoun more and more in what is so laughingly
>called Real Life these days, because it's so *handy*.
Personally, I use shi in place of she/he
hir in place of him/her
hirs in place of his/hers.
Mostly beause I find sie rather unpronouncable 8)
build high for happiness
Jon
Mary Ellen Curtin
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:29:53 -0500 <Rak...@aol.com>, <tpa...@yahoo.com>, <jo...@best.com>
CC:
<as...@earthlink.net>, <Syd...@aol.com>, <rae_...@yahoo.com>
My husband has come up with more suggestions:
Either "ze" or, with the same pronounciation, "xe".
The first is more comprehensible, though Rather Silly.
The second is attractively alien-ambiguous: could
span the gender gamut from "None" to "None of the
Above" to "Not Telling" to "Depends on the Day of the
Week."
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"Technology and Gender: Fabrics of Power in Late
Imperial China," by Francesca Bray
Scarlet
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:59:33 -0000
From:
Scarlet <sca...@mbox301.swipnet.se>
To:
"'as...@earthlink.net'" <as...@earthlink.net>
Ellen wrote:
> Unless we want to have to explain our terminology
> to every newbie on the block, we should stick with
> s/he and hir. At least these are self-defining.
I agree! The world is confusing enough as it is.
Scarlet the newbie
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In space, no one can hear you scream.
In cyberspace, no one can see you blush. -- Scarlet
--------------------------------------------------------------------
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Interested in the ASCEM(L) Round Robin? There's still time!
Write to eres...@cyberg8t.com and ask to be put on the list!!
Posting to ASCEM is easy: send your messages to <as...@earthlink.net>
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/ASCEML
Moiner
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:37:28 -0500
From:
moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner)
Organization:
Illuminati Online
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
In article <36bac4d1...@news.mindspring.com>, Arac...@webtv.net
(Ellen Lewis) wrote:
> Subject:
> Re: ASCEML - Re: Pronouns
> Unless we want to have to explain our terminology to every newbie on the
> block, we should stick with s/he and hir. At least these are
> self-defining.
> We humans (and others <g>), have been describing our world using
> ourselves as the yardstick for over 25,000 years. We don't have much use
> for neutral pronouns. We even assign genders to inanimate objects. I've
> owned four cars in my life, and all of them have had names; they've also
> had genders. Same with my stuffed animals, when I was younger. Hell, I
> even name my houseplants! The technical term is anthropomorphizing;
> assigning human characteristics to non-human objects, alive or not.
...and perhaps not so much anthropomorphizing as zoomorphizing.
Living things have genders. My attitude is that one should simply
deal with it.
I know folks who like to do the non-gender thing; I just can't get behind it.
I like having a gender, and can't imagine wanting to disavow it.
--
"What do you do when all your excuses are gone?"
Rae Trail
Re: [ASCEML] Re: Pronouns
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:43:11 -0800 (PST)
From:
Rae Trail <rae_...@yahoo.com>
To:
as...@earthlink.net
---Mary Ellen Curtin wrote:
>
> My husband has come up with more suggestions:
>
> Either "ze" or, with the same pronounciation, "xe".
>
> The first is more comprehensible, though Rather Silly.
> The second is attractively alien-ambiguous: could
> span the gender gamut from "None" to "None of the
> Above" to "Not Telling" to "Depends on the Day of the
> Week."
I'm feeling rather silly this morning, I guess. I know this is a
serious topic, but in reference to s/he (which showed up seven times
in a two paragraph union notice I got in the mail yesterday...) -- I
work in an industry that thrives on acronyms. Thrives to the point
that it is practically a new language, I mean. Here's a possible list
of s/he's, and their meanings:
Mof :Male Or Female (or of course: Fom)
Fome:Female Or Male Entity
Nege:NEutral Gendered Entity
T'spins: TrekSmut Pronoun Indicating Neither Sex
Ton: Treksmut Official Neuter
Noot: Not One Or 'Tother
Newt: short for neuter
Yogg: YOu Gotta Guess
Yogiagam: YOur Guess Is As Good As Mine (Yogi for short, meaning YOur
Guess Is?)
U/S: Unknown Sex
S/U: Sex Unannounced
Sorry, Mary Ellen, I couldn't help myself. It's the new meds, I
think. Excuse me...
Rae
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
PensNest
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 20:16:59 +0000
From:
pens...@notatglobalnet.co.uk (PensNest)
Organization:
none
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.uu.net
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
In article <36bacb38...@news.mindspring.com>,
"Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU> wrote:
>>My husband has come up with more suggestions:
>>
>>Either "ze" or, with the same pronounciation, "xe".
>>
>>The first is more comprehensible, though Rather Silly.
>>The second is attractively alien-ambiguous: could
>>span the gender gamut from "None" to "None of the
>>Above" to "Not Telling" to "Depends on the Day of the
>>Week."
What about 'per'?
Pen
***D-Tales - the new Data anthology***
email pensnest at globalnet.co.uk
Greywolf
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:57:36 -0800
Rae Trail wrote:
> ---Mary Ellen Curtin wrote:
> >
> > My husband has come up with more suggestions:
> >
> > Either "ze" or, with the same pronounciation, "xe".
> >
> > The first is more comprehensible, though Rather Silly.
> > The second is attractively alien-ambiguous: could
> > span the gender gamut from "None" to "None of the
> > Above" to "Not Telling" to "Depends on the Day of the
> > Week."
>
> I'm feeling rather silly this morning, I guess. I know this is a
> serious topic, but in reference to s/he (which showed up seven times
> in a two paragraph union notice I got in the mail yesterday...) -- I
> work in an industry that thrives on acronyms. Thrives to the point
> that it is practically a new language, I mean. Here's a possible list
>
> of s/he's, and their meanings:
>
> Mof :Male Or Female (or of course: Fom)
Heh, heh, heh... Now here's my military mindset coming up -- when I see
MoF, I think "Motherfuckin' Officer -- hide the stash!" Heh, heh,
heh...
> Fome:Female Or Male Entity
> Nege:NEutral Gendered Entity
> T'spins: TrekSmut Pronoun Indicating Neither Sex
> Ton: Treksmut Official Neuter
> Noot: Not One Or 'Tother
> Newt: short for neuter
> Yogg: YOu Gotta Guess
> Yogiagam: YOur Guess Is As Good As Mine (Yogi for short, meaning YOur
> Guess Is?)
> U/S: Unknown Sex
> S/U: Sex Unannounced
>
> Sorry, Mary Ellen, I couldn't help myself. It's the new meds, I
> think. Excuse me...
>
> Rae
And let's not forget:
FIIK: Fucked If I Know
EWC: Ew! Who Cares!
Greywolf the Wanderer, having way too much fun tonight
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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Trillseekr
Re: Pronouns
Date:
06 Feb 1999 09:37:19 GMT
From:
trill...@aol.comsnlybs (Trillseekr) Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
In article <alexas-ya02408000...@news.earthlink.net>, Rae Trail
<rae_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Noot: Not One Or 'Tother
>Newt: short for neuter
>Yogg: YOu Gotta Guess
Very very funny, Rae. :)
Trilly
Mary Ellen Curtin
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Sat, 6 Feb 1999 17:44:00 -0500 <as...@earthlink.net>
CC:
<moi...@io.com>
Moiner wrote:
>Living things have genders. My attitude is that one should simply
deal
>with it.
Not all living things have genders, not by a long shot. Some
have one, and then the other (many fish), some have both
at once (many flowering plants), some never have one (everything
that reproduces by budding). Many protists (protozoa) have
sexual reproduction without gender, that is, without a male/female
distinction. And then some lizards (for example) have gender
without sexual reproduction -- they're all female, but the daughters
are born from unfertilized eggs. None of this diversity is expressed
in human pronoun systems.
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"The Golden Compass," by Philip Pullman>
>I know folks who like to do the non-gender thing; I just can't get
>behind it.
>
>I like having a gender, and can't imagine wanting to disavow it.
>
>--
>"What do you do when all your excuses are gone?"
>
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>Interested in the ASCEM(L) Round Robin? There's still time! Write to
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>
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>1999 22:14:05 -0800 From: moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner) To:
>ale...@earthlink.net Organization:
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>Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Pronouns
J.Jon Kramer
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:55:03 -0800
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
Hello, Rae,
Is BWA-HA-HA-HA! one word or four? Thanks for this list.
Will squirrel it away and bring it out to snort over when
the TLA's start flying a little too low.
Cheers
jonk
J.Jon Kramer
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:28:07 -0800
From:
"J.Jon Kramer" <jo...@best.com>
Organization:
Organization? What organization?
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
Hello, Moiner,
Interesting points. As one of the local non-gendered folks
here, I figure now is the time to pitch in my 2 cents as to
my rationale.
As you point out, we "genderize" EVERYthing. I can't think
of a single culture that doesn't do this. Some are more into
genderizing than others, but we all have it.
For the first time in history, we have with the internet a
chance to explore in real time what exactly gender means to
us. I don't want to pretend I'm a gender I'm not. I simply
want one little area of my life that is free of automatic
gender assumptions, that gives people a choice on how they
want to think of me, rather than being railroaded into a
gender cubbyhole. Interestingly, many folk just *have* to
assign a gender anyway, doesn't matter whether they get it
right or not. That's fine by me. The object is not to
*eliminate* gender but to offer an opportunity to become
aware of one's personal or cultural gender assumptions. Some
folks just say "whatever" and ignore the whole thing. That's
fine too. We don't all need every opportunity that comes our
way.
Figure this shouldn't change your mind so much as give you
another point of view to work with. I see no reason anyone
shouldn't feel jazzed about their gender, whatever it is and
however they define it. It's just that we have seen major
shifts through the ages as to what gender means to us,
culturally and personally. Even today, there are major
differences in gender perceptions between cultures; contrast
Afghanistan with America. So what exactly is *inherent* to
gender, and what is assumed? For me, that's what the s/he
and hir (or whatever comes up to replace them ;-) ) gives us
a chance to examine, if we so choose.
Moiner
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:13:10 -0500
From:
moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner)
Organization:
Illuminati Online
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
In article <36bdf58f...@news.mindspring.com>, as...@earthlink.net wrote:
Saith Doctor Mary Ellen:
>Moiner wrote:
>>Living things have genders. My attitude is that one should simply
>deal with it.
>
>Not all living things have genders, not by a long shot. Some
>have one, and then the other (many fish),
Happy to alternate with those. "He" tuesday, "She" wednesday.
>some have both
>at once (many flowering plants),
Happy to postpone that one till I meet one that's sentient. Till
then, it's an it.
> some never have one (everything
>that reproduces by budding).
"It."
>Many protists (protozoa) have sexual reproduction without gender,
>that is, without a male/female distinction.
"It."
>And then some lizards (for example) have gender
>without sexual reproduction -- they're all female, but the daughters
>are born from unfertilized eggs. None of this diversity is expressed
>in human pronoun systems.
Reproduces, lays eggs, daughters? "She."
--
"What do you do when all your excuses are gone?"
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Moiner
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:32:17 -0500
From:
moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner)
Organization:
Illuminati Online
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
In article <36bdf5cc...@news.mindspring.com>,jo...@best.com wrote:
> Hello, Moiner,
>
> Interesting points. As one of the local non-gendered folks
> here, I figure now is the time to pitch in my 2 cents as to
> my rationale.
>
> As you point out, we "genderize" EVERYthing. I can't think
> of a single culture that doesn't do this. Some are more into
> genderizing than others, but we all have it.
Yup, seems basic to how we think about most of the world, and
not merely about sentients-- several of the languages I study
use the concept for everything, with curious effects.
> For the first time in history, we have with the internet a
> chance to explore in real time what exactly gender means to
> us. I don't want to pretend I'm a gender I'm not. I simply
> want one little area of my life that is free of automatic
> gender assumptions, that gives people a choice on how they
> want to think of me, rather than being railroaded into a
> gender cubbyhole. Interestingly, many folk just *have* to
> assign a gender anyway, doesn't matter whether they get it
> right or not. That's fine by me. The object is not to
> *eliminate* gender but to offer an opportunity to become
> aware of one's personal or cultural gender assumptions. Some
> folks just say "whatever" and ignore the whole thing. That's
> fine too. We don't all need every opportunity that comes our
> way.
This is an exceedingly interesting experiment. I would ask, do
you encounter many folks who do not assume that you are male?
The middle name "Jon" gives me that strong impression, and I
would be surprised to find that it did not give that impression
to many others. If you are male, do you deny it when folks assume it?
If you are female, do you correct them, or do you explain that you
are using a man's name as an experiement? I am not meaning to
be rude with these questions; they are ones that are occurring to me
as you explain the nature of your experiment.
> Figure this shouldn't change your mind so much as give you
> another point of view to work with. I see no reason anyone
> shouldn't feel jazzed about their gender, whatever it is and
> however they define it. It's just that we have seen major
> shifts through the ages as to what gender means to us,
> culturally and personally. Even today, there are major
> differences in gender perceptions between cultures; contrast
> Afghanistan with America. So what exactly is *inherent* to
> gender, and what is assumed? For me, that's what the s/he
> and hir (or whatever comes up to replace them ;-) ) gives us
> a chance to examine, if we so choose.
Interesting; it seems to do the opposite to me. To me, it seems
to avoid the issue by pretending it isn't there, and I think it comes
off as unsatisfying for the same reasons that "The Outcast" was so
unsatisfying an ep for me-- ( the j'nai were so clearly flat-chested women
that the ep played out for me as a planet of feminists from one of Rush's
nightmares, forcing compliance with the "party line").
As an exercise in gender experimentation, I wish JMStraczynski had
stuck with his original plot line with Delenn, one of the more striking
characters from That Other Show. Originally, the character was male,
and was to change sex in order to marry a human male.
I guess I'm still waiting to see androgyny done well in visual SF, and I
think I see less and less coming out of the concept. I find English well
suited to meeting the challenges of writing inclusively, and that's why
I toss in a bit of Devil's Advocacy on the question of gender-neutral
pronouns.
At any rate, thank you for the discussion :-)
T'Pat--Differently-Humoured Entity
Re: ASCEML - Re: Pronouns
Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:42:01 -0800 (PST) To:
as...@earthlink.net
CC:
jo...@best.com
moiner wrote:
> >I know folks who like to do the non-gender thing; I just can't get
> >behind it.
> >
> >I like having a gender, and can't imagine wanting to disavow it.
Oh, and I forgot.
My car is female, my favourite plant is female.
My 30and some year old Teddy Bear is male and gay
(and he's wearing a delicious pajamas, BTW, with buttons on the back).
However, my toster is undecided--asked me to get back to hir in a
couple of months. And so is my 'puter at work. Yes, I did ask them.
See?
T'Pat--silly with all the rain...
PS: jonk? Hey, jonk, how's your vacuum? Made up hir mind, yet?
==
`Different' is normal. Normal? Now, *that* is different. T'Pat
>:-j
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
T'Pat--Differently-Humoured Entity
Re: ASCEML - Re: Pronouns
Date:
Mary Ellen wrote:
> Moiner wrote:
> >Living things have genders. My attitude is that one should simply
> deal
> >with it.
>
> Not all living things have genders, not by a long shot. Some
> have one, and then the other (many fish), some have both
> at once (many flowering plants), some never have one (everything
> that reproduces by budding). Many protists (protozoa) have
> sexual reproduction without gender, that is, without a male/female
> distinction. And then some lizards (for example) have gender
> without sexual reproduction -- they're all female, but the daughters
> are born from unfertilized eggs. None of this diversity is expressed
> in human pronoun systems.
Well, Mary Ellen, if I ever needed a lawyer, I'd come running to your
doorstep. BTW, where did you say you live? ;-)
> >I know folks who like to do the non-gender thing; I just can't get
> >behind it.
> >
> >I like having a gender, and can't imagine wanting to disavow it.
The term 'disavow' makes me frown. Like Vulcans do when they
don't get it. It looks to me like an over-simplification.
Things can be pretty complicated, at times, and your not being
able to imagine this only proves we *are* different.
Rejoice in IDIC.
Isn't life grand?
T'Pat--loving all things different, non-gendered, differently-gendered,
gender-undecided, plainly confused or just about indifferent.
Rae Trail
Re: [ASCEML] Re: Pronouns
Date:
Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:36:38 -0800 (PST)
Moiner wrote:
> > >I know folks who like to do the non-gender thing; I just can't get
> > >behind it.
> > >
> > >I like having a gender, and can't imagine wanting to disavow it.
>
> The term 'disavow' makes me frown. Like Vulcans do when they
> don't get it. It looks to me like an over-simplification.
> Things can be pretty complicated, at times, and your not being
> able to imagine this only proves we *are* different.
> Rejoice in IDIC.
>
> Isn't life grand?
>
> T'Pat--
And I'd like to add:
I have never seen gender as an absolute. I have never met a wholly
'feminine' woman or a wholly 'masculine' man. Among human beings
gender seems to be like politics - it's not a line with a few points
on it, with female and male at the extreme ends. It seems to be more
of a circle, if you will, with maleness on one side and femaleness on
the other. Physical characteristics usually define which side of the
circle one belongs on, but I have met many perfectly sane and
wonderful mothers that were extremely masculine by the definitions my
society uses: breadwinners, discipliners of children, weekend sports
nuts, mechanically inclined, mathematically clever, repressers of
feelings, (not trying to stereotype, you can't on a circle anyway) and
plenty of perfectly sane and wonderful fathers who cooked, cleaned the
house, favoured opera over autoracing, poetic rather than linear...
If He is on the left, and She is on the right, and they are absolute,
where do folks like these fit in?
Now what about all our gay and lesbian friends. My dear friend who,
at 56 runs international dinner parties for diplomats clad in his
kilt, his sweet wrist as limp as a rag.. he is undoubtedly male. His
partner who goes the gym every day and plays rugby on the weekends is
far more feminine to me, most days. There is no line. There is a
blurred image, a fogged mirror. The only people's ideas that matter
in these cases are the people inhabiting the bodies and their friends.
I cannot define them as male just because they have the gear danglin'
between their legs.
Now go one further, and try to incorporate people who's physical
'realities' express in No Way their feelings about their own gender.
Are you a woman only and simple and finally because you are born in
the body of a woman? Just because you have the testes, does that mean
that because you want to have sex with men that you are a gay man, or
could it be that you're a woman in that terribly wrong shape?
I vote for hir, and lom, xe, fom, o, or whatever. Language evolves.
That's what makes it a useful tool.
Rae
Jon Andersen
Re: Pronouns
Date:
8 Feb 1999 14:47:34 GMT
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner) writes:
>Interesting; it seems to do the opposite to me. To me, it seems
>to avoid the issue by pretending it isn't there, and I think it comes
>off as unsatisfying for the same reasons that "The Outcast" was so
>unsatisfying an ep for me-- ( the j'nai were so clearly flat-chested women
>that the ep played out for me as a planet of feminists from one of Rush's
>nightmares, forcing compliance with the "party line").
>As an exercise in gender experimentation, I wish JMStraczynski had
>stuck with his original plot line with Delenn, one of the more striking
>characters from That Other Show. Originally, the character was male,
>and was to change sex in order to marry a human male.
>I guess I'm still waiting to see androgyny done well in visual SF, and I
>think I see less and less coming out of the concept. I find English well
>suited to meeting the challenges of writing inclusively, and that's why
>I toss in a bit of Devil's Advocacy on the question of gender-neutral
>pronouns.
We haven't gotten Invasion Earth out here yet, but I understand that in
order to show the androgynous nature of teh Talons (?) (the show's resident
aliens), all their roles are played by women even when the characters are male.
build high for happiness
Jon
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Interested in the ASCEM(L) Round Robin? There's still time!
Write to eres...@cyberg8t.com and ask to be put on the list!!
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J.Jon Kramer
Re: Pronouns
Date:
Mon, 08 Feb 1999 05:14:50 -0800as...@earthlink.net
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
Hello, Moiner,
Moiner wrote:
> >
>
> This is an exceedingly interesting experiment. I would ask, do
> you encounter many folks who do not assume that you are male?
Yes.
>
> The middle name "Jon" gives me that strong impression, and I
> would be surprised to find that it did not give that impression
> to many others.
J. Jon Kramer is my real name. First name is Janet. Either way I was
screwed as a
kid ;-) Fortunately the only things the other kids could figure rhymed with
Janet was "planet" and "granite" neither of which make for a nice solid insult.
So we all went around and around with this until I beat up the neighborhood
bully
a couple of times. That shut them up until puberty, at least. ;-) Other members
of the family have odd names as well, such as Lane, Cargill, and god help him,
Athole, who fortunately has been dead for 75 years or so.
> If you are male, do you deny it when folks assume it?
> If you are female, do you correct them, or do you explain that you
> are using a man's name as an experiement? I am not meaning to
> be rude with these questions; they are ones that are occurring to me
> as you explain the nature of your experiment.
Actually, I simply either let it ride or point out that I haven't said whether I
am m or f. Usually take the time to explain my point of view when that happens.
Haven't really thought of this as an experiment. More as a vacation. Nope, I
don't take these questions to be rude.
> blah blah blah For me, that's what the s/he
> > and hir (or whatever comes up to replace them ;-) ) gives us
> > a chance to examine, if we so choose.
>
> Interesting; it seems to do the opposite to me. To me, it seems
> to avoid the issue by pretending it isn't there, and I think it comes
> off as unsatisfying for the same reasons that "The Outcast" was so
> unsatisfying an ep for me-- ( the j'nai were so clearly flat-chested women
> that the ep played out for me as a planet of feminists from one of Rush's
> nightmares, forcing compliance with the "party line").
Hoo boy. This one opens a big can of worms.
Well (jonk leans forward to whisper conspiratorially in your ear) here's my
Secret Gender Theory. Shh, don't tell anyone. See, I figure gender (physical
gender of the body), gender identity (internal gender perception/reality),
gender
sexuality (the personal sexual expression of gender) are all floating along a
continuum, pick a couple of ends, any couple of ends. Some folk might say you
have your homosexuals on one end and hets on the other, with all the
transies and
the asexuals in between. Some folk might start with a pyramid, with transies on
the top and well you get the idea. The order of sorting isn't as important as
recognising that there's more than one way to be human. I figure that's why s/he
and hir aren't going to open some doors for you the way they will for others.
You've got your own doors to open. (Another secret...I doubt this theory is
original with me ;-) )
As to your points about "s/he" and "hir" avoiding the issue of gender by
pretending it isn't there, yep, that's one of the doors I was talking about. As
you can see, those pronouns mean something entirely different to me than they do
to you, and since there's such a wide disparity between the two perceptions,
clearly there's some assumptions going on. Usually what happens at this point is
that judgements creep in, and start saying "My assumptions are better than
yours"
or "assumptions are bad" or some such nonsense. The fun starts when we get to
move past all that and start asking ourselves, "Well, *why* do I think it avoids
gender, *why* do I think it pretends it's not there, and why do I find that
unsatisfying? What am I looking for here? Is it really missing?" Questions like
that. See, we end up coming out the other end a little more ourselves than we
were when we went in. If we change our minds and perceptions, it's all our own
doing. If we keep what we had, we have a deeper understanding and appreciation
for what we already knew.
Bringing this back to Star Trek and literature, I personally feel that
expressions of absence of gender would be extremely difficult to convey, unless
you developed characters with a strong sense of personal sexuality who exhibit
strongly mixed gender signals. A Rock Hudson face and voice on a Marilyn Monroe
body and mannerisms, perhaps, or vice versa. I suppose you'd have to really
delve
into your audience's gender assumptions and know them well before you could pull
this off. Simply putting a woman in a man's suit, or a man in a dress, or making
their sexuality mostly cerebral or emotional rather than viscerally physical, is
not going to cut it. Or you could play it as you see it here, a disembodied
voice
in text only, with no nuance of voice or view or any of the cues we take
from one
another in personal interaction.
How you do it is one thing. Why is another. What was the real story going
on with
those eps? The j'nai ep you mention, if it's the one I'm thinking of, came
across
to me as a retelling of "Fahrenheit 451" with genders/sex instead of books. Did
the characters really need to be genderless? I would say no. Lack of gender has
typically been played as a gimmick, and gimmicks are seldom satisfying.
Thing is, we are so gender saturated we don't know what not-gendered would be
like. We don't have anything to research. We can extrapolate space travel in
space ships from terrestrial forms of travel we already have, or what we wish we
could have (the transporter is such a wonderful form of satisfying the "are we
there yet?" itch ;-) ). We can postulate what ifs (What if the world were
overrun by giant spiders?) as long as there's a hook into something we're
familiar with. None of these make demands on the audience. The theme or question
can be pretty well expressed and explored in a half hour or so. But with
not-gendered, there's nothing familiar to the audience. How are you going
to help
them suspend their disbelief? A difficult task.
>
>
> As an exercise in gender experimentation, I wish JMStraczynski had
> stuck with his original plot line with Delenn, one of the more striking
> characters from That Other Show. Originally, the character was male,
> and was to change sex in order to marry a human male.
>
Well, alas, I didn't see much of That Other Show, so I must excuse myself from
commenting on it. That would have been an interesting storyline! Sheesh, the
thighs I mean the things they put on TV these days. Or think about putting
on TV,
anyway.
>
> I guess I'm still waiting to see androgyny done well in visual SF, and I
> think I see less and less coming out of the concept.
Yeh, I must agree. I don't say it's not out there, I just haven't seen it (nor
have I been looking very diligently for it). Is it a barren concept? I don't
think so.
> I find English well
> suited to meeting the challenges of writing inclusively, and that's why
> I toss in a bit of Devil's Advocacy on the question of gender-neutral
> pronouns.
I wonder if I would have even considered trying this if my native language was
Spanish, for example ;-)
>
>
> At any rate, thank you for the discussion :-)
My pleasure!
>
>
> --
> "What do you do when all your excuses are gone?"
>
Not sure you really want an answer to this sig, but there's always blame and
"tempter" tantrums ;-)
helpfully yours,
jonk