Hurt/comfort without comfort: realistic or pointless?
Alara Rogers
not so long ago.
The point to hurt/comfort stories is, pretty much, the comfort. While
an angstfic can focus mostly on emotional pain and never resolve it,
actually doing something awful to a character, such as torture, rape,
maiming, that kind of thing, seems to require a payoff. Otherwise it
seems gratuitous, and also as if you're inviting people to take
pleasure in a character's suffering.
On the other hand, in real life, comfort does not always follow
suffering. Quite the opposite. Very often bad things happen to people
and they cannot bring themselves to tell anyone, or whoever they tell
does nothing to help them or may even harm them.
An idea popped into my head a week or so ago in which a character is
tormented, and subjected to some particularly nasty mind games, by a
person with a grudge. Although what happens to the main character is
something he *could* get comfort and help for, or at the very least
justice, the tormentor manages to convince him that no one will care
about his suffering, and people will either not believe him, laugh at
him, or accuse him of deliberately trying to make trouble. Because
all of these things seem very plausible and likely to the character
and because of his own personality, he will not be able to tell
anyone what happened and will in fact actively engage in trying to
hide it.
I would *like* to resolve it with comfort, but everything I tried to
map out seemed cheesy and unrealistic-- that people would be
empathetic toward someone they don't actually like, that random
chance would lead to a medical exam before the evidence healed, that
the character would manage, against all established facts about his
personality, to ask for the help he needs despite believing he can't
get it. The thought struck me that the scenario I'd be describing is
very similar to child abuse-- the character is not a child but
wouldn't have much greater clue about what's appropriate and what's
wrong than a child would. And most abused children never do manage to
tell anyone what's happening until they're adults and it's long over.
I guess what I'm wondering is, do people think there's a point to
writing such a story? I don't know whether what I'm describing is
gratuitous torment for the sake of sadism, or a painfully realistic
look at something that could, under the circumstances, very likely
happen.
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Babs Bunny
that one I described before, where he gets raped and mindmessed and he's
scared to tell anyone. When he finally does he gets reamed for it and the
story ends with him crying his eyes out on the floor or something..o.O
One of the more grizly bits of fanfic I've read...*shudder*
Babs Bunny (who hopes you'll spare the android in this story you plan to
write..*grins*)
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Alara Rogers
wrote:
> I think there was already a story about that which involved Data.
It was
> that one I described before, where he gets raped and mindmessed and
he's
> scared to tell anyone. When he finally does he gets reamed for it
and the
> story ends with him crying his eyes out on the floor or
something..o.O
>
> One of the more grizly bits of fanfic I've read...*shudder*
>
> Babs Bunny (who hopes you'll spare the android in this story you
plan to
> write..*grins*)
No, no plans to hurt the poor android. :-) I pick on characters who
have themselves done Very Bad Things, most of the time.
The story you describe sounds absolutely gratuitous, as well as way
OOC (not for Data post-emotion chip, but for his crewmates,
definitely.) There's no way Data would be afraid to tell his
crewmates what happened to him because there's no way they would
react by being cruel to him, and he knows it. Sounds like someone
wanted to wallow in pain and didn't care if the story was even
vaguely realistic or in character.
The idea I had involves someone who doesn't have any reason to
*think* people would be kind to him or would help him, so the fact
that, in fact, the people around him wouldn't react cruelly if they
knew doesn't help; he won't tell them because he's sure he already
knows what will happen. Data hasn't got either that kind of arrogance
*or* that kind of massive insecurity, and we know Data *does*, in
fact, seek comfort from his friends when he thinks he needs it.
Actually a more realistic way to handle this scenario, when dealing
with Data, is similar to the story "Page of Cups" (I forget who wrote
it), where it turned out Data has *always* had emotions and has been
repressing them because he thinks he should. If Data *pre*-chip was
raped, assaulted, or had his mind messed with, he might think that
the very notion this should bother him at all is so strange and alien
to his concept of himself that he wouldn't seek comfort because he'd
be in denial that he was in pain. He didn't seem to seek out his
friends to talk to them about what Fatjo did to him, and that
apparently upset him so badly he was planning to kill the guy. If
someone wanted to write Data h/c I'd think that would be a better
road to take. However, I personally think that writing Data h/c, for
me, is like kicking a puppy. :-) I tend very strongly to favor doing
mean things to characters who have done mean things themselves, not
because I think they should be punished but because I like to think
the universe has some balance to it. At least in my fic.
syredronning
> I've been wondering about a particularly evil fic idea that struck
me
> not so long ago.
>
> The point to hurt/comfort stories is, pretty much, the comfort.
Is it? ;)
I think one can write hurt alone (you just have to ignore the readers
who beg for the c part ;).
The question for me is if the solution you give as alternative is
fitting, has impact, meaning, evolution into a direction. The hurt
scenes must mean something and lead to something, even though not
necessarily to comfort IMO.
> On the other hand, in real life, comfort does not always follow
> suffering. Quite the opposite.
Yeah. The question is, how do you handle the non-comfort-thing? There
are wonderful tragic stories and movies around, where destruction is
inevitable. Sometimes you know from the start that there won't be a
happy ending. There won't be the one good solution. People will die,
or kill themselves, of be forgotten wherever.
> I guess what I'm wondering is, do people think there's a point to
> writing such a story?
Yes.
> I don't know whether what I'm describing is
> gratuitous torment for the sake of sadism, or a painfully realistic
> look at something that could, under the circumstances, very likely
> happen.
You can write it both ways, IMO. And your readers will read it as
they want to. A reader can only present the base from which people
start thinking up their own interpretation. So if you fear that
someone might just read it for the torment, don't write it *g*
Birgit, very curious now *sigh*
Babs Bunny
>have themselves done Very Bad Things, most of the time.
Than in that case, the fates are marching in and the character is getting
what he/she deserves!:) Go for it!:)
>The story you describe sounds absolutely gratuitous, as well as way
>OOC (not for Data post-emotion chip, but for his crewmates,
>definitely.) There's no way Data would be afraid to tell his
>crewmates what happened to him because there's no way they would
>react by being cruel to him, and he knows it. Sounds like someone
>wanted to wallow in pain and didn't care if the story was even
>vaguely realistic or in character.
This is true. Though I think the situation was either he allow himself to
get raped, or have all his friends court-martialled. In the end he wound up
getting the short end of the stick and there was a trial where he fessed up
to what happened. But if I recall correctly, the tables got turned and it
was him who got the punishment and courtmartial. My memory is a little
fuzzy about the finer details of the story however, so I could be wrong.
>The idea I had involves someone who doesn't have any reason to
>*think* people would be kind to him or would help him, so the fact
>that, in fact, the people around him wouldn't react cruelly if they
>knew doesn't help; he won't tell them because he's sure he already
>knows what will happen. Data hasn't got either that kind of arrogance
>*or* that kind of massive insecurity, and we know Data *does*, in
>fact, seek comfort from his friends when he thinks he needs it.
Indeed he does! To have Data keep anything inside that was scaring him or
that was wrong, is quite OOC.
>Actually a more realistic way to handle this scenario, when dealing
>with Data, is similar to the story "Page of Cups" (I forget who wrote
>it), where it turned out Data has *always* had emotions and has been
>repressing them because he thinks he should. If Data *pre*-chip was
>raped, assaulted, or had his mind messed with, he might think that
>the very notion this should bother him at all is so strange and alien
>to his concept of himself that he wouldn't seek comfort because he'd
>be in denial that he was in pain. He didn't seem to seek out his
>friends to talk to them about what Fatjo did to him, and that
>apparently upset him so badly he was planning to kill the guy.
Not only that, but if something really bothered him and he didn't wish to
keep brooding on it, couldn't he simply have the painful memory at hand
erased? (I'm going out on a limb and taking a page from the anime
"Chobits", where the androids in question do have that ability.)
>If someone wanted to write Data h/c I'd think that would be a better
>road to take. However, I personally think that writing Data h/c, for
>me, is like kicking a puppy. :-) I tend very strongly to favor doing
>mean things to characters who have done mean things themselves, not
>because I think they should be punished but because I like to think
>the universe has some balance to it. At least in my fic.
I would agree. That's why I was squicked by this tale when normally slash
doesn't faze me. I dunno. having Data go through anything of that
magnitude, such as the story I wrote...I dunno, there's just something very
off about that...:}
Babs Bunny
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Polly
> suffering. Quite the opposite. Very often bad things happen to
people
> and they cannot bring themselves to tell anyone, or whoever they
tell
> does nothing to help them or may even harm them.
This is very true, and certainly adds to the angst. I think whether
or not your audience finds satisfaction in the story doesn't
necessarily rely on the character receiving outside comfort for it,
however, as long as your character demonstrates the potential for
self comfort (and I don't mean *that* kind of self comfort, people,
lol). I mean, does your character persist in feeling victimized and
helpless, or does s/he eventually integrate the experience and come
out of it able to live with her/himself? To me, that was what made
the Data/Fatjo ep work- call me bloodthirsty, but when Data stopped
being a victim and drew down on that jerk, that qualified
as 'comfort' and was an acceptable outcome.
> An idea popped into my head a week or so ago in which a character
is
> tormented, and subjected to some particularly nasty mind games, by
a
> person with a grudge. Although what happens to the main character
is
> something he *could* get comfort and help for, or at the very least
> justice, the tormentor manages to convince him that no one will
care
> about his suffering, and people will either not believe him, laugh
at
> him, or accuse him of deliberately trying to make trouble. Because
> all of these things seem very plausible and likely to the character
> and because of his own personality, he will not be able to tell
> anyone what happened and will in fact actively engage in trying to
> hide it.
And what are you going to do to Q now? LOL! No, seriously, in your
hands I don't see why this couldn't be an excellent story, with or
without the comfort end of the equation.
>The thought struck me that the scenario I'd be describing is
> very similar to child abuse-- the character is not a child but
> wouldn't have much greater clue about what's appropriate and what's
> wrong than a child would. And most abused children never do manage
to
> tell anyone what's happening until they're adults and it's long
over.
Again, true, but a lot of people end up enormously strengthened by
surviving abuse, once they're able to turn an adult eye on what
happened to them and accept that it wasn't their fault. Believe me
when I say, I'm not making light of this. I know whereof I speak.
> I guess what I'm wondering is, do people think there's a point to
> writing such a story? I don't know whether what I'm describing is
> gratuitous torment for the sake of sadism, or a painfully realistic
> look at something that could, under the circumstances, very likely
> happen.
I vary between believing there's a point to *every* story, or there's
no point to *any* story. Either way, if that's what your muse calls
you to write, and you said it yourself, it's a painfully realistic
look at something that could happen, you should go for it. I'll read
it. :-)
Polly
Babs Bunny
surviving abuse, once they're able to turn an adult eye on what
happened to them and accept that it wasn't their fault. Believe me
when I say, I'm not making light of this. I know whereof I speak.
I'm with you. Speaking from experience, one DOES get strength from
sitatuons like that.
Go me!:)
Babs Bunny
J. Juls
> From: Alara Rogers [mailto:al...@mindspring.com]
> The story you describe sounds absolutely gratuitous, as well as way
> OOC (not for Data post-emotion chip, but for his crewmates,
> definitely.) There's no way Data would be afraid to tell his
> crewmates what happened to him because there's no way they would
> react by being cruel to him, and he knows it.
If it's the story I'm thinking of, it was an admiral who was blackmailing
Data -- he knew something about Picard that could get Picard in trouble
unless Data cooperated.
Julie
longbeachtrekstar
> I guess what I'm wondering is, do people think there's a point to
> writing such a story? I don't know whether what I'm describing is
> gratuitous torment for the sake of sadism, or a painfully realistic
> look at something that could, under the circumstances, very likely
> happen.
Others have commented more eloquently and extensively than I will,
but I do have one idea to add.
Another way of looking at a story like this is that even if the
character doesn't receive comfort or learn how to deal with the
situation, the story is worthwhile if the *reader* learns. "That poor
bastard. If that ever happened to me, I'd handle it better by doing
such-and-such."
-lbts
Babs Bunny
Though as naive as data may be, I don't think he'd let anyone get away with blackmailing him like that, let alone let some psycho near his private parts. I know *I* wouldn't, and I'm not even an android!
Babs Bunny
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Juls
To: ASC...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:44 PM
Subject: RE: [ASCEML] Re: Hurt/comfort without comfort: realistic or pointless?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alara Rogers [mailto:al...@mindspring.com]
> The story you describe sounds absolutely gratuitous, as well as way
> OOC (not for Data post-emotion chip, but for his crewmates,
> definitely.) There's no way Data would be afraid to tell his
> crewmates what happened to him because there's no way they would
> react by being cruel to him, and he knows it.
If it's the story I'm thinking of, it was an admiral who was blackmailing
Data -- he knew something about Picard that could get Picard in trouble
unless Data cooperated.
Julie
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datalaur
>I think there was already a story about that which involved Data.
> It was that one I described before, where he gets raped and
>mindmessed and he's scared to tell anyone. When he finally does he
>gets reamed for it and the story ends with him crying his eyes out
on >the floor or something..o.O
>
>One of the more grizly bits of fanfic I've read...*shudder*
> > From: Alara Rogers [mailto:alara@m...]
> The story you describe sounds absolutely gratuitous, as well as way
> > OOC (not for Data post-emotion chip, but for his crewmates,
> > definitely.) There's no way Data would be afraid to tell his
> > crewmates what happened to him because there's no way they would
> > react by being cruel to him, and he knows it.
--- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "J. Juls" <jjuls@t...> wrote:
If it's the story I'm thinking of, it was an admiral who was
blackmailing Data -- he knew something about Picard that could get
Picard in trouble unless Data cooperated.
The basic premise as described does have elements of the Shut Down
The Sun series by Quoth (all stories available at Trekiverse).
Perhaps it is indeed a different story that was being referenced, but
if not, then I feel compelled to speak up in its defense. I will
make the disclaimer up front that I beta'd the stories (Lightning
Strikes Me, Rear View Mirror, Ashes to Prove it). If nothing else, I
have knowledge of authorial intentions. If the series didn't succeed
for certain readers, that is truly regrettable.
I am concerned that the overall impression newsgroup readers may now
have about the series is incorrect -- if nothing else, in a factual
sense. Of course people may have subjective opinions that may vary
and yet are valid. I respect that Babs walked away with negative
feelings; she is certainly entitled to her opinion and reactions.
Yet I cannot agree that the series, which is Data/LaForge at its
core, was pointless, gratuitous or unrealistic. One intent was
definitely to portray a good man in a moral and emotional crisis
brought on by his protective instincts and guilt. The second story
goes to some pains to lay the factual basis for how this could
happen, based on the aftermath of the First Contact movie. One of
the points was how an evil, vengeful man (a Betazoid admiral with a
very personal grudge) can manipulate and blackmail an emotionally-
distraught Data.
In the third story, Data does find the courage to tell his friends
(who are aghast), and face his attacker in court. Yes, there is then
a misunderstanding brought on by Data's hypersensitivity (having been
sexually assaulted), in which Data effectively acts as if he thinks
Geordi is another rapist. Is Geordi hurt and upset by this? Yes, he
is, and says a few things he doesn't mean. I personally find those
moments of upset plausible, but others may not. Data does cry as
Geordi storms out.
But the story does not end there, as Babs indicated. The next scene
is the comfort... Geordi realizing how badly he overreacted and
heading right back to apologize and help Data. The story ends as
Data finally is able to express his grief and fears, and Data and
Geordi begin the long process of working through the aftermath of
rape.
As for the quality of the stories, each reader will be the judge.
But I did want to mention that Lightning Strikes Me won 1st place in
the 1998 TNG Best Data/LaForge category. The third story, Ashes, won
2nd place in the 1999 Golden Orgasms for TNG Single Person. Quoth is
a skilled and experienced author who has something like 9 GOs over
the years.
May I suggest that those interested in this discussion read the
series for themselves and form their own opinion?
laur
aka datalaur
ASCEMGO webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/ascemgo