Slash versus non-slash

[kira-nerys]

Where do you guys draw the line? I've been reading with interest how a few
people on this list, and most significantly Gamin Davies comments on the
subject.

I'm interested, because what I've read of Gamin's stuff signifies as slash
to me. There's a relationship between Kirk and Spock where the love shines
through, and not platonic or friendship love either. There's a whole lot of
touching going on and the dialogue to me suggests rather an unspoken love -
as in a romantic love - than a friendship.

What I'm referring mostly to is "The Loneliness of Command" that I've been
reading on ASC. I'm not going to quote any of it here since I do not have
Gamin's permission to do so, but the story to me is full of very subtle
slash, but still slash.

kira-nerys

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[Greywolf the Wanderer]

kira-nerys wrote:

> Where do you guys draw the line? I've been reading with interest how a few
> people on this list, and most significantly Gamin Davies comments on the
> subject.

<snort!!> Ahh.. yah.

> I'm interested, because what I've read of Gamin's stuff signifies as slash to
> me. There's a relationship between Kirk and Spock where the love shines
> through, and not platonic or friendship love either. There's a whole lot of
> touching going on and the dialogue to me suggests rather an unspoken love -
> as in a romantic love - than a friendship.

Heh heh heh... Yer eeevil, you wench you. Mind you, I could extrapolate the
same thing. Though to me it reads more like some of the mushier non-slash
hurt/comfort stuff. That was some of the first Trek fanfic I found, and at
first I kinda liked it, being a sucker for angst and all. But once I found the
real thing, I lost patience with most of the other stuff.

I recommend, for those who do like hurt/comfort, Lynn Syck <spelling?> and Mary
Rottler. Also some of Michelle Arvizu's stuff, though her early work is rough
around the edges. And of course the wonderful Mary Wiecek. And let's not
forget Rabble Rouser, who has ventured into those waters once or twice.

It can be a lot of fun to read, but I'm a slashman meself. IDIC and all. For
me, Gamin's Spock is way too girly, crying in Jim's arms at the drop of a hat.
But a lot of her other characterizations are spot on; it may be that most of
you reading this will really dig her stuff. Only way to tell is go have a
look.

> What I'm referring mostly to is "The Loneliness of Command" that I've been
> reading on ASC. I'm not going to quote any of it here since I do not have
> Gamin's permission to do so, but the story to me is full of very subtle
> slash, but still slash.

Ah. Due to an exceedingly bad newsfeed, I haven't seen any of that one. But I
read most of the one about Spock's first christmas away from home, or the one
where he went to Earth with Amanda to visit his cousin. And it was annoying to
me, because so much was right on, but Spock himself just didn't *feel* right.

Might just be me. Gamin and I have crossed swords on more than one occasion,
with a good deal of heat on both sides. We seriously piss each other off.
<shrug> So what. Life goes on. You basically have to look and see for
yerself, I guess.

> kira-nerys

GreywolfdeVulCheq

[kira-nerys]

----- Original Message -----
From: Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net>
> > I'm interested, because what I've read of Gamin's stuff signifies as
slash to
> > me. There's a relationship between Kirk and Spock where the love shines
> > through, and not platonic or friendship love either. There's a whole
lot of
> > touching going on and the dialogue to me suggests rather an unspoken
love -
> > as in a romantic love - than a friendship.
>
> Heh heh heh... Yer eeevil, you wench you. Mind you, I could extrapolate
the
> same thing. Though to me it reads more like some of the mushier
non-slash
> hurt/comfort stuff. That was some of the first Trek fanfic I found, and
at
> first I kinda liked it, being a sucker for angst and all. But once I
found the
> real thing, I lost patience with most of the other stuff.

Gamin responded to this, and I think perhaps my first post was a bit
offensive, so I chose not to reply to her response because she made som
good points. Perhaps I should have acknowledged that I thought so? She
says she's not writing slash and I suppose she's got a point. I didn't mean
to be rude by writing that post and I think maybe that I was. I realized
something that Gamin pointed out to me and that is that we *do* read what
we want into the stories. But if she sees them as only friends in her
stories, then that's what they *are* in her stories.

I'd be pretty upset if someone told me something the found about my stories
that I didn't mean to be there. Can't think of anything specific, but I
know that my stories are my *kids* and god help the one who treats my kids
badly <G>

> > What I'm referring mostly to is "The Loneliness of Command" that I've
been
> > reading on ASC. I'm not going to quote any of it here since I do not
have
> > Gamin's permission to do so, but the story to me is full of very subtle
> > slash, but still slash.
>
> Ah. Due to an exceedingly bad newsfeed, I haven't seen any of that one.
But I
> read most of the one about Spock's first christmas away from home, or the
one
> where he went to Earth with Amanda to visit his cousin. And it was
annoying to
> me, because so much was right on, but Spock himself just didn't *feel*
right.

I haven't read those, and I don't like any story where a man gets all
teary-eyed and crying all over the place, but that is *especially* Spock
who is so restrictive of *all* his emotions. I figure there's got to be
something *really* bad going on for him to be shedding even a tear.

> Might just be me. Gamin and I have crossed swords on more than one
occasion,
> with a good deal of heat on both sides. We seriously piss each other
off.
> <shrug> So what. Life goes on. You basically have to look and see for
> yerself, I guess.

Yup. I found myself not agreeing with what Gamin said either, but that's
life and IDIC eh? We all have a right to our opinions.

> GreywolfdeVulCheq

kira-nerys

[SAMK]

kira-nerys wrote:

> I'd be pretty upset if someone told me something the found about my stories
> that I didn't mean to be there. Can't think of anything specific, but I
> know that my stories are my *kids* and god help the one who treats my kids
> badly <G>

Yeah, but you know what? The whole point of raising kids is to get them
to where you can send them off to fend for themselves. Any
reader brings something to the story, and if they haven't brought something
to add to what I put there, I just don't think I've done my job right.

What really disappoints me is when people can't take enough out
of what I've written to see the possibilities.

SAMK
sa...@inil.com

[Gil Shalos]

An IDIC moment....
Kira said...

"I realized
something that Gamin pointed out to me and that is that we *do* read what
we want into the stories. But if she sees them as only friends in her
stories, then that's what they *are* in her stories.

I'd be pretty upset if someone told me something the found about my stories

that I didn't mean to be there. Can't think of anything specific, but I
know that my stories are my *kids* and god help the one who treats my kids
badly <G>"

And I found that ... fascinating <raises eyebrow> ... because I write K & S
rather than K/S but I really don't mind when I get feedback that indicates
the reader read it as K/S but without the sex scenes...
I rejoice to see that we are different!

Cheers,
Gil

Gil Shalos

************
Reach out to others courteously
Accept their reaching with careful hands
The spear in the Other's heart is the spear in your own. You are s/he

***************************
http://members.tripod.com/~gil.shalos/home.html

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com

>Yeah, but you know what? The whole point of raising kids is to get them
to where you can send them off to fend for themselves. Any
reader brings something to the story, and if they haven't brought something
to add to what I put there, I just don't think I've done my job right.

What really disappoints me is when people can't take enough out
of what I've written to see the possibilities.

SAMK<

Very, very nicely put, SAMK.

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

[kira-nerys]

----- Original Message -----
From: J S Cavalcante <jd...@compuserve.com>
To: kira-nerys <kar...@kardasi.com>

>I'd be pretty upset if someone told me something the found about my
stories
that I didn't mean to be there. Can't think of anything specific, but I
know that my stories are my *kids* and god help the one who treats my kids
badly <G><

<<<kira-nerys, I hope as you write more that your feelings ease up on this
subject, because people are always going to see things you didn't intend in
your stories.<<

Sigh, yet again, I find myself speaking with my foot in my mouth. *Of
course* I want people to be able to see more than what I intended. I don't
know how to explain what I meant. What I meant was probably I'd be
concerned if someone *twisted* the meanings of what I said into something I
found detestable.

<<<I don't know if you followed the discussion about
Roddenberry and slash, and LN and WS and slash. The writer (or actor,
producer, etc.) simply cannot legislate meaning in stories she produces. <<

True, and yes, I´have been following some of the discussion, if not all of
it.

<<<Most of the time, readers' individual interpretations will please you,
but
at some point, someone will probably come along who reads something into
your stories that you don't like. This is just what happens with fiction.
*You* don't have to accept your reader's interpretation any more than she
has to accept yours, but you'll both probably feel better if you don't get
upset about it.<<

Right. You're right of course. I've yet to find myself in this position
though when it comes to my fanfic. Why I'm not sure. Maybe I don't write
too controversially - or perhaps I don't stir such feelings in people with
the stories I write?

<<Also, I have seen this "my stories are my kids" perspective before, and I
respectfully suggest it's setting yourself up for a fall. Admittedly, I
have a different perspective because I wrote for a living . . . <<

Hmmm. Would it surprise you to know that I do as well? This comment
actually threw me somewhat. Why are you assuming that your perspective is
different because you write professionally? Perhaps I haven't been writing
as long as you have and that might be the reason?

>>> but it
really is easier on the author who chooses to treat the whole thing
professionally and say, "it's just a story. If someone criticizes it, I'll
have enough detachment to take a look and see if there's any truth to their
comments that can assist me in my next story. <<

You're right. I have gotten some bad reviews from the stuff I've got
published, but I find it hard, and you're probably right that it would be
easier if I'd think the way you suggest. But it is difficult, maybe I'll
get there.

>>>If not, I will ignore the
comments completely because I can't use them." A utilitarian attitude,
I'll admit. But it really, really puts you above the fray when there is
one, and nobody gets hurt.<<

I think you're wrong though. There doesn't have to be either/or. I've read
some reviews that hurt me, but I still can take the criticism to heart.
Usually it works in a cycle for me - hurt/anger/ then think about it and
use the criticism to improve.

<<<I'd like to post this reply to the entire list, but I didn't know
whether
you would be comfortable with that. Let me know?<<

I'm okay with that. In fact, I'm sending this reply to your mail to the
list. I'm assuming that's okay since you suggested it :-)

<<I really enjoy your writing, and I hope my comments are helpful.<<

Thanks

kira-nerys

[Gamin Davis]

From: arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)

On 16 Jun 2000, kar...@kardasi.com (kira-nerys) was caught saying
<003701bfd77a$80cc0720$e3c2c6c3@a010029036> in
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated to anyone with the patience to
listen:

>Gamin responded to this, and I think perhaps my first post was a bit
>offensive, so I chose not to reply to her response because she made som
>good points. Perhaps I should have acknowledged that I thought so? She

This would have been nice, as I never saw the message show up on the NG
from my end and would have liked some confirmation that you saw it without
asking someone else. Anyway, I'm glad I made some kind of sense.

>says she's not writing slash and I suppose she's got a point. I didn't
>mean to be rude by writing that post and I think maybe that I was. I

>realized something that Gamin pointed out to me and that is that we *do*
>read what we want into the stories. But if she sees them as only friends
>in her stories, then that's what they *are* in her stories.

Thank you for that acknowledgement...

>I'd be pretty upset if someone told me something the found about my
>stories that I didn't mean to be there. Can't think of anything
>specific, but I know that my stories are my *kids* and god help the one
>who treats my kids badly <G>

<grin>

>I haven't read those, and I don't like any story where a man gets all
>teary-eyed and crying all over the place, but that is *especially* Spock
>who is so restrictive of *all* his emotions. I figure there's got to be
>something *really* bad going on for him to be shedding even a tear.

See my response to Greywolf on this (it should get there eventually).
I actually seldom have him doing anything more than shedding a tear or two,
usually in a way that Kirk can't see, and not unless he is really having a
hard time emotionally; the ones where I have him doing more than that were
earlier stories--remember that most of the ones I've posted were done 10-15
years ago.

>Yup. I found myself not agreeing with what Gamin said either, but that's
>life and IDIC eh? We all have a right to our opinions.

And this is of course my opinion of my own work, so I fugure it should
carry *some* weight <g>. FWIW, I'm much more interested in whether or not
people *liked* my story than whether or not they read slash into it. I had
an LoC from a K/S slash fan/writer in response to one of my zines, talking
about how *perfect* my characterization of Spock was in one of the stories
(another Spock's-childhood-told-in-flashback story), and she certainly did
*not* see slash elements in it (or in any of the other stories)--so
obviously over-emotionalism and slash is in the eye of the beholder.
Gamin
P.S. As a point of interest, this is the first time I've seen *any* of this
thread for about a week, I think--since my initial responses. *&^%$#
stupid selective news servers...

[Gamin Davis]

From: arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)

On 15 Jun 2000, grey...@snowcrest.net (Greywolf the Wanderer) was caught
saying <394884BC...@snowcrest.net> in

alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated to anyone with the patience to
listen:

><snort!!> Ahh.. yah.

Hmm.

>Heh heh heh... Yer eeevil, you wench you. Mind you, I could extrapolate
>the same thing. Though to me it reads more like some of the mushier
>non-slash hurt/comfort stuff. That was some of the first Trek fanfic I
>found, and at first I kinda liked it, being a sucker for angst and all.
>But once I found the real thing, I lost patience with most of the other
>stuff.

That's exactly what it is (by design)--non-slash hurt/comfort stuff.
And of course, to me, this *is* "the real thing" and slash isn't. But, as
you say...IDIC, people. I was impressed, actually, that you bothered to
read and vote for *any* of my stories, since I thought I was still on your
"scum of the Earth" list.

>I recommend, for those who do like hurt/comfort, Lynn Syck <spelling?>
>and Mary Rottler. Also some of Michelle Arvizu's stuff, though her
>early work is rough around the edges. And of course the wonderful Mary
>Wiecek. And let's not forget Rabble Rouser, who has ventured into those
>waters once or twice.

Hey, I can back you up on Lynn Syck and Mary Rottler--I also like most
of their stories.

>It can be a lot of fun to read, but I'm a slashman meself. IDIC and
>all. For me, Gamin's Spock is way too girly, crying in Jim's arms at
>the drop of a hat. But a lot of her other characterizations are spot on;
>it may be that most of you reading this will really dig her stuff. Only
>way to tell is go have a look.

Actually, if you read more than one or two of my stories, you'd find
out that he only cries during times of extreme emotional turmoil--hardly
IMO "at the drop of a hat", although I was a lot worse with that in my
earlier stories (and do bear in mind please that a lot of what I've posted
so far HAS been my earlier work). I've gotten so I'm much more careful
about that. I have my own opinions of what constitutes "girly" (big hint--
it falls more in the realm of slash), and it's not men who have the guts to
emote. To me that takes more strength than holding it all in all the time,
and I really think Spock has enough stress in his life that it's justified
sometimes.

>Ah. Due to an exceedingly bad newsfeed, I haven't seen any of that one.
> But I read most of the one about Spock's first christmas away from
>home, or the one where he went to Earth with Amanda to visit his cousin.
> And it was annoying to me, because so much was right on, but Spock
>himself just didn't *feel* right.

For the record, that was done for someone else, who told me I could
make it as "mushy" as I wanted to. I'm a mushy person, especially when it
comes to K&S h/c. And after all, if you can't get mushy about Christmas,
what *can* you get mushy about?

>Might just be me. Gamin and I have crossed swords on more than one
>occasion, with a good deal of heat on both sides. We seriously piss
>each other off.
><shrug> So what. Life goes on. You basically have to look and see for
>yerself, I guess.

Heheh--I'm long past being "pissed off" at you, although I do wish you
would respond when I post you a message or E-mail you (it hasn't been very
often, but I tried).
I will close by pointing out to you what I mentioned to someone else a
while back--something you probably already know (read it anyway, just to
humor me): everybody has their own idea of what constitutes overly
emotional behavior in Spock. To *me*, having him crying occasionally is
far more believable than having him have sex with anything (or
any*one*) that moves at the drop of a hat (to use your term)--at least
we've *seen* him do it on screen, so we know it's possible. On a
believability scale--mine, that is--h/c falls somewhere between a 7 and 8,
while slash (again, *for me*) would be no higher than 1. It constantly
amazes me that so many people can look at the same characters on-screen and
come up with so many different interpretations, most of them believable,
even if sometimes only in the given story situations. This happens to be
mine.
Gamin, trying to convert swords to ploughshares

[Greywolf the Wanderer]

ascem-use...@trekfiction.com wrote:

> From: arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)
>
> On 15 Jun 2000, grey...@snowcrest.net (Greywolf the Wanderer) was caught
> saying <394884BC...@snowcrest.net> in
> alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated to anyone with the patience to
> listen:
> ><snort!!> Ahh.. yah.
>
> Hmm.
>
> >Heh heh heh... Yer eeevil, you wench you. Mind you, I could extrapolate the
> same thing. Though to me it reads more like some of the mushier non-slash
> hurt/comfort stuff. That was some of the first Trek fanfic I found, and at
> first I kinda liked it, being a sucker for angst and all. But once I found
> the real thing, I lost patience with most of the other stuff.
>
> That's exactly what it is (by design)--non-slash hurt/comfort stuff.
> And of course, to me, this *is* "the real thing" and slash isn't. But, as
> you say...IDIC, people. I was impressed, actually, that you bothered to read
> and vote for *any* of my stories, since I thought I was still on your "scum
> of the Earth" list.

Not always. When you pop off with crap like you sometimes do, I fire off a
reply. You can be quite civilized when you care to bother, and it's always a
pleasant surprise. But walkin' in here and styling yerself clean and
uncorrupted is asking for flames, and I reckon you know that. So what, ya get
bored and like gettin' stomped now and then? Doesn't make much sense to me,
but IDIC I guess.

> >I recommend, for those who do like hurt/comfort, Lynn Syck <spelling?> and
> Mary Rottler. Also some of Michelle Arvizu's stuff, though her early work is
> rough around the edges. And of course the wonderful Mary Wiecek. And let's
> not forget Rabble Rouser, who has ventured into those waters once or twice.

I should also mention Ann Zewen, who although she staunchly disagrees with me
about slash, writes well and has *always* been a lady about it. A more
intelligent and civil correspondent ye'll have to go far to find.

> Hey, I can back you up on Lynn Syck and Mary Rottler--I also like most of
> their stories.

Haven't seen one I didn't like yet.

> >It can be a lot of fun to read, but I'm a slashman meself. IDIC and all.
> For me, Gamin's Spock is way too girly, crying in Jim's arms at the drop of a
> hat. But a lot of her other characterizations are spot on; it may be that
> most of you reading this will really dig her stuff. Only way to tell is go
> have a look.
>
> Actually, if you read more than one or two of my stories, you'd find out
> that he only cries during times of extreme emotional turmoil--hardly IMO "at
> the drop of a hat", although I was a lot worse with that in my earlier
> stories (and do bear in mind please that a lot of what I've posted so far HAS
> been my earlier work).

That might explain it. Cause I can't see even a teenage Spock breaking down
and crying that easy. He'd never have survived if he was that weak. and he
*did* survive, as well we know.

> I've gotten so I'm much more careful about that. I have my own opinions of
> what constitutes "girly" (big hint-- it falls more in the realm of slash),
> and it's not men who have the guts to emote. To me that takes more strength
> than holding it all in all the time,
> and I really think Spock has enough stress in his life that it's justified
> sometimes.

Huh. Sounds like more flamebait here. I got work to do, I ain't goin' there
right now. Except to say, there's silly weepy girly slash <like a certain
author of many syrup VOY song-stories> and then there's believable slash, where
both characters <or all three or whatever> remember that they are *men* and
behave accordingly. As for girly, it keeps getting read so I guess it's got
fans out there. I just ain't one of them. And a lot of h/c stories out there
get *so* overwraught they come off like prize-winners in the Bulwer-Lytton Bad
Writing Contest. The one issue of Tantalus I saw was notable for that, as well
as some *serious* plot holes in a couple of them.

> >Ah. Due to an exceedingly bad newsfeed, I haven't seen any of that one.
> But I read most of the one about Spock's first christmas away from home, or
> the one where he went to Earth with Amanda to visit his cousin. And it was
> annoying to me, because so much was right on, but Spock himself just didn't
> *feel* right.
>
> For the record, that was done for someone else, who told me I could make
> it as "mushy" as I wanted to. I'm a mushy person, especially when it comes
> to K&S h/c. And after all, if you can't get mushy about Christmas, what
> *can* you get mushy about?

Ew. I'd really rather not go there, either. For one thing, Christmas, while
an interesting custom, is not native to my religion, and for another, one of
the things I loathe about christmas is the oceans and oceans of nauseating sap
and mush that surround it nowadays -- in addition to the mindless
commercialism. Ew.

Nah. Some of the stuff in there was nicely done. But I'd have red-penned
about half of the emotional guff right off the bat. <shrug> IDIC again I
suppose. I'm pleasantly surprised to even get an answer from ye, to tell the
truth.

> >Might just be me. Gamin and I have crossed swords on more than one
> occasion, with a good deal of heat on both sides. We seriously piss each
> other off. <shrug> So what. Life goes on. You basically have to look and
> see for yerself, I guess.
>
> Heheh--I'm long past being "pissed off" at you, although I do wish you
> would respond when I post you a message or E-mail you (it hasn't been very
> often, but I tried).

Some messages I probably never saw, especially on asc -- I'm lucky if my server
shows 30 new a day there. On a good day. As for email, I go thru phases. If
I'm busy writing or swamped in RL a lot of it gets put by to answer later --
and sometimes later never comes. I've lost my mailbox 4 times in the last 3
years due to assorted crashes, and each time it had many "to be answered"
messages that I had no way to recover afterwards. shit happens.

> I will close by pointing out to you what I mentioned to someone else a
> while back--something you probably already know (read it anyway, just to
> humor me): everybody has their own idea of what constitutes overly emotional
> behavior in Spock. To *me*, having him crying occasionally is far more
> believable than having him have sex with anything (or any*one*) that moves at
> the drop of a hat (to use your term)--at least we've *seen* him do it on
> screen, so we know it's possible. On a believability scale--mine, that
> is--h/c falls somewhere between a 7 and 8, while slash (again, *for me*)
> would be no higher than 1. It constantly amazes me that so many people can
> look at the same characters on-screen and come up with so many different
> interpretations, most of them believable, even if sometimes only in the given
> story situations. This happens to be
> mine.

Yep. Proof the Great Bird was right to espouse IDIC -- even though he was
mainly in it for the money. ;-)> To me, most of the non-slash h/c I've seen
varies between a 2 and maybe a 5, with the two Mary's and Ann Z maybe getting
up to 8 or 9 at times. Slash varies all the way from minus 2 to 10++,
depending on author, style, subject, my mood at the time, and so on. But being
queer myself, I find slash inherently easier to believe in.

> Gamin, trying to convert swords to ploughshares

Greywolf, willing to go along for now -- though yer gonna see another flame,
where I hit send just before opening *this* one. God is an iron, Spider
Robinson was right.

[rae_trail]

God is an iron, Spider
Robinson was right

I HEAR you, Greywolf.

I'm glad bacchus isn't home. can I kiss you?

Rae

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[rae_trail]

Gamin, trying to convert swords to ploughshares

Only way to do it is with a forge, and the only person can do it is Vulcan, so you're pretty much fucked (LOL)! Maybe you would just through the sword into the abyss and smile?

Rae

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[vana...@aol.com]

> Gamin, trying to convert swords to ploughshares

This is a honourable thing to do IMHO.

What do you think, Karmen, we do to?

Vanasati
(appologizing)

-----------------------------------------
"Never give up, never surrender"
(Galaxy Quest)
-----------------------------------------
http://members.aol.com/Vanasati/
-----------------------------------------

[Gamin Davis]

From: arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)

On 16 Jun 2000, gilsh...@hotmail.com (Gil Shalos) was caught saying
<2000061700381...@hotmail.com> in

alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated to anyone with the patience to
listen:

>And I found that ... fascinating <raises eyebrow> ... because I write K
>& S rather than K/S but I really don't mind when I get feedback that
>indicates the reader read it as K/S but without the sex scenes...
>I rejoice to see that we are different!

And I *shouldn't* mind. In fact, I decided a few stories back that I
couldn't be responsible for whether or not other people chose to
superimpose their own K/S fantasies onto my stories...but, I don't know, it
just remains one of my pet peeves. I guess because it's bothered me for so
long (no, you all are not the first to mention it, but you're the first
*K/S* fans to see it), it's going to take longer than I'd hoped for me to
develop a thick skin regarding this.
Gamin

>
>Cheers,
>Gil
>
>Gil Shalos
>
>************
>Reach out to others courteously
>Accept their reaching with careful hands
>The spear in the Other's heart is the spear in your own. You are s/he
>
>***************************
>http://members.tripod.com/~gil.shalos/home.html
>
>

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by kira-nerys

>Right. You're right of course. I've yet to find myself in this position
>though when it comes to my fanfic. Why I'm not sure. Maybe I don't write
>too controversially - or perhaps I don't stir such feelings in people with
>the stories I write?<

Maybe it's that you've targeted your stories to the right audience. I
think your original post was in reply to one by a gen author who didn't
want her work to be construed as K/S? In her case, she's got a more
general target audience that happens to include K/Sers. (And maybe some of
our wicked minds are preprogrammed to read slashy situations into anything.
<g>)

<<Also, I have seen this "my stories are my kids" perspective before, and I
>>respectfully suggest it's setting yourself up for a fall. Admittedly, I
>>have a different perspective because I wrote for a living . . . <<

>Hmmm. Would it surprise you to know that I do as well? This comment
>actually threw me somewhat. Why are you assuming that your perspective is
>different because you write professionally? Perhaps I haven't been writing
>as long as you have and that might be the reason?

Yes, it does surprise me, but if you haven't been doing it very long, that
could be a reason. I don't know how long it takes to develop the attitude
I'm talking about. And I have worked as an editor also, so maybe I got a
double dose of it early on.

Anyway, you asked why I made such an assumption. I did because sensitivity
to criticism of one's stories is everywhere in fandom, so I've encountered
it before. I've heard the comment "my stories are my babies" many times,
in fandom, from people who had never been edited and had never been given
much feedback before. Professionals get edited a lot, and copyedited, and
they get used to it. That's all. There are people who have never written
for a living who have the professional attitude because they've done a lot
of writing workshops or have been edited in school or have good
beta-readers here--it's not really whether you get paid for it that makes a
difference. It's just that writing *as your work* would seem to be a
surefire way to develop it, whereas the other routes always leave you a
fairly easy exit.

The writers I've known who have said their stories were their babies tended
to get their feelings hurt when anyone challenged an aspect of their
stories. (And I *don't* mean to suggest these were bad or beginning
writers in any way. One in particular was *brilliant*! Others I've known
were also excellent writers. They just didn't have the same detachment
that I have encountered among professionals, so they suffered more.) BTW,
I don't mean to suggest that the criticism in question always came from me.
A few times it did--very few--but I saw these people react that way to
others more often.

Do you get edited much? I can tell from looking at recently published
books and magazine articles that people are editing (and copyediting) less
and less these days. Maybe it will take many professionals longer to
adjust if they're not getting raked over the proverbial coals as often.

FWIW, I'm not making a value judgment about the relative worth of the
professional or the amateur outlook. Both have value; neither is superior.
I imagine if one wants to keep he amateur (I do it for the love of it, and
no one shall mess with me) attitude, then maybe self-publishing, a la Walt
Whitman, is a more comfortable way to go. It doesn't mean you can't turn
out excellent work--look what the authors here are doing, and no one is
getting paid for it. And you needn't compromise anything! By contrast,
the professional attitude creates more distance probably simply because you
get edited regularly, and you do it on deadline, and you make compromises.
Is it better to compromise? Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not; you
usually find out later. When an editor who does not write as well as you
do savages your work and then publishes it with your name on it . . .
<aargh> . . . you learn that such compromises aren't *always* comfortable.
(Last time that happened, I was most distressed, but the editor had her
reasons, which I understood--it had to do with publishing difficulties that
had NOTHING to do with the editor's original intentions, or mine--and also,
I had the check. <sigh>)

(In our society there seem to be some unfortunate connotations attached to
the words "professional" and "amateur." Emily Dickinson was an amateur . .
..)

>>> but it
>>really is easier on the author who chooses to treat the whole thing
>>professionally and say, "it's just a story. If someone criticizes it,
I'll
>>have enough detachment to take a look and see if there's any truth to
their
>>comments that can assist me in my next story. <<

>You're right. I have gotten some bad reviews from the stuff I've got
>published, but I find it hard, and you're probably right that it would be
>easier if I'd think the way you suggest. But it is difficult, maybe I'll
>get there.

I hope so, 'cuz it'll be much easier on you!

Do you talk with your editors about it? Maybe they could help. Perhaps I
have a "thick skin" about my writing now because I worked as an editor for
a number of years, and still edit on occasion. Maybe it's the *editor's*
perspective that is most helpful . . .. I hadn't considered that.

>>If not, I will ignore the
>>comments completely because I can't use them." A utilitarian attitude,
>>I'll admit. But it really, really puts you above the fray when there is
>>one, and nobody gets hurt.<<

>I think you're wrong though. There doesn't have to be either/or. I've read
>some reviews that hurt me, but I still can take the criticism to heart.
>Usually it works in a cycle for me - hurt/anger/ then think about it and
>use the criticism to improve.

Well, I was saying that IF you evaluate the comments and find that you
don't agree, or can't use them in any way, THEN ignore them (especially
here where there is no check, and you really *don't* have to compromise!) .
. . but I can understand what you say. That's what happened with me and
the college instructor, as I related a couple of weeks ago when we were
sharing such stories. But *now* I've learned to get the instruction
without the *hurt,* and that feels MUCH better to me. YMMV.

>I'm okay with that. In fact, I'm sending this reply to your mail to the
>list. I'm assuming that's okay since you suggested it :-)

Of course. <g>

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

[kira-nerys]

----- Original Message -----
From: <ascem-use...@trekfiction.com>
To: <asc...@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:34 PM
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

> From: arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)
>

> On 16 Jun 2000, kar...@kardasi.com (kira-nerys) was caught saying

> <003701bfd77a$80cc0720$e3c2c6c3@a010029036> in

> alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated to anyone with the patience to
> listen:

> >Gamin responded to this, and I think perhaps my first post was a bit
> >offensive, so I chose not to reply to her response because she made som
> >good points. Perhaps I should have acknowledged that I thought so? She
>
> This would have been nice, as I never saw the message show up on the
NG
> from my end and would have liked some confirmation that you saw it
without
> asking someone else. Anyway, I'm glad I made some kind of sense.

Well, I am sorry Gamin, but I do get loads of emails in my inbox. I'm on
too many lists as it is, and didn't have time to respond to your message.
There's also been so much crap going on on the newsgroup lately that I felt
that getting in deeper with you and stuff that we disagree about would only
get things stirred up again.

Alas, here I go, putting the stick into the mud and stirring again...

> >I haven't read those, and I don't like any story where a man gets all
> >teary-eyed and crying all over the place, but that is *especially* Spock
> >who is so restrictive of *all* his emotions. I figure there's got to be
> >something *really* bad going on for him to be shedding even a tear.
>
> See my response to Greywolf on this (it should get there
eventually).
> I actually seldom have him doing anything more than shedding a tear or
two,
> usually in a way that Kirk can't see, and not unless he is really having
a
> hard time emotionally; the ones where I have him doing more than that
were
> earlier stories--remember that most of the ones I've posted were done
10-15
> years ago.

Gamin, you're entitled to have Spock bawl his eyes out in your stories,
don't get me wrong, but Spock crying at all is very hard for me to accept,
unless he's been affected like something akin to the Psi2000 virus, or he'd
been through something really crippling, or is affected by someone else's
emotions like the Horta's in "The Devil in the Dark"

Even then I think he would feel shame at doing so. BUT alas, this is my
*opinion* and shouldn't stop you from writing what feels right for you and
your interpretation of the character.

> >Yup. I found myself not agreeing with what Gamin said either, but that's
> >life and IDIC eh? We all have a right to our opinions.
>
> And this is of course my opinion of my own work, so I fugure it
should
> carry *some* weight <g>. FWIW, I'm much more interested in whether or
not
> people *liked* my story than whether or not they read slash into it.

Well, like is a very lame word. I didnt' exactly dislike your story. It was
well-written, but some of the characterizations were 'off' for me. And it
wasn't slash. I prefer slash.

> I had
> an LoC from a K/S slash fan/writer in response to one of my zines,
talking
> about how *perfect* my characterization of Spock was in one of the
stories
> (another Spock's-childhood-told-in-flashback story),

Well I can't say anything about that story of yours since I haven't read
it. I haven't read many of your stories at all. I simply checked out that
latest thing on ASC, and I'm probably not going to read any more of your K
& S, and *why should you care*?

There are several reasons for that which are my own and don't really have
anything to do with your writing, which I found fairly good . IMO you're a
pretty okay writer, Gamin, but your stories are not for me. Your
characterization of Spock isn't for me. And I have to admit when I read
about Kirk and Spock I prefer them to be in a loving - romantic -
relationship. Which sort of rules your stuff out, but that doesn't mean
that they're no good, just not for me, y'know.

< and she certainly did
> *not* see slash elements in it (or in any of the other stories)--so
> obviously over-emotionalism and slash is in the eye of the beholder.

There's always going to be someone out there who will be okay with your
interpretation of Spock, and I'm sure there are loads of ppl who read your
stuff and think "God, I'm so glad this isn't slash."

Probably there are people out there who like seeing him lose control and
shed a tear or two. I have to admit that the part of Spock losing control
is a very attractive thought to me, but in other contexts <G> and yeah,
that was a lewd statement, which I think I'm entitled to.

But overly emotional Spock when it comes to crying is something that rubs
me the wrong way. Seeing him as a sexual being does not. Personal
preference.

You may argue that it would be more logical to see Spock crying than be
sexually attracted to someone, because we've seen him cry onscreen. Now
tell me, where did you see Spock cry except for in "Naked Time" where he
was affected by the Psi 2000 virus and mind-melding with the Horta? Are
there other instances that I just don't remember right now?

As for him getting sexually aroused it's happened on several occasions but
he was affected by outside forces there as well - Amok Time (pon farr) All
our Yesterdays (pre-reform Vulcan de-evolution) This side of Paradise (the
Spores) and he's been using his sexuality on other occasions like on the
Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" f.i. Granted, we never saw
him actually have sex, but he gave some serious finger nookie...

So one can argue oneself blue whether it is more logical to see Spock cry
or have sex. I'd say both are perhaps just as illogical.

What I find most ... alarming ... in your posts is the way that you seem to
think that any thoughs of K/S are *lewd*. Like the scene in the Wrath of
Khan when Spock dies. Just because we slashfen find that a very romantic
scene and see a lot of romantic *love* there doesn't make us lewd. Or
seeing sexual attraction or romantic love in the Sickbay scene in TMP
doesn't make us lewd either.

Why is it lewd to see romantic love between two men? Do you think that any
such scene has us slashfen thinking about Spock and Kirk in variouis sexual
positions on the floor? That's definitely not the way it is for me.

K/S to me is a relationship filled with tendernes, loyalty, duty,
companionship, understanding, friendship, sparkling witty conversations,
laughter, sorrow, care, working well together, mutual respect - and yes,
sexual attraction, but that's only a part of their relationship to me. The
way I see it, that isn't lewd.

kira-nerys

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <394BF16A...@snowcrest.net>,

Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net> wrote:
> Not always. When you pop off with crap like you sometimes do, I fire
off a
> reply. You can be quite civilized when you care to bother, and it's
always a
> pleasant surprise. But walkin' in here and styling yerself clean and
> uncorrupted is asking for flames, and I reckon you know that. So
what, ya get
> bored and like gettin' stomped now and then? Doesn't make much sense
to me,
> but IDIC I guess.

This was not an attempt at flame-bait at all. I was merely
responding to kira-nerys, who posted that comment without the courtesy
of so much as a one-line "I'm going to post this" E-mail to me. I
*thought* the negative (and to me, it was) stuff was supposed to be
confined to E-mail. No, I get very tired of being "stomped", and it
still seems to me that I am not wholly to blame. But I digress...

> > Hey, I can back you up on Lynn Syck and Mary Rottler--I also
like most of
> > their stories.
> Haven't seen one I didn't like yet.

On the rare occasions when I've found anything I didn't like in
them, it's usually been some minor thing that makes no real difference
to the plot and characterization.

> That might explain it. Cause I can't see even a teenage Spock
breaking down
> and crying that easy. He'd never have survived if he was that weak.
and he
> *did* survive, as well we know.

Yes, by internalizing everything he felt--but I at least have
theorized that after meeting Kirk, he gradually learned to open up when
the two of them were alone. It took me some years to find what I felt
was the right balance between the totally Vulcan Spock some people seem
to love (bleah) and just having him emote all over the place. My early
stories had him crying not only too often but too *obviously*. You'll
have to trust me when I say I've improved, because the originally-
published versions of my early stories would probably make you ill
(they almost do me). But just like you, I have my fans. They don't
seem to be as vocal as my detractors, but at least they're there.
Somewhere. I know--I can hear them breathing. <g>

> Huh. Sounds like more flamebait here. I got work to do, I ain't
goin' there

Not unless it's flame-bait to defend your own version of Spock when
someone else calls it "girly". If I can't disagree with you about my
own work without being accused of that, then is it really *me* who has
the thin skin? "Girly", like "over-emotional" and the other labels
attached to that portrayal are in the eyes of the beholder.

> right now. Except to say, there's silly weepy girly slash <like a
certain
> author of many syrup VOY song-stories> and then there's believable
slash, where
> both characters <or all three or whatever> remember that they are
*men* and
> behave accordingly. As for girly, it keeps getting read so I guess
it's got
> fans out there. I just ain't one of them. And a lot of h/c stories
out there
> get *so* overwraught they come off like prize-winners in the Bulwer-
Lytton Bad
> Writing Contest. The one issue of Tantalus I saw was notable for
that, as well
> as some *serious* plot holes in a couple of them.

Hmm, could be--I wonder if some of those are in the same issue I have
(TANTALUS REVISITED)? I defer to your expertise on slash--I only have
the little bit I've read and seen reviewed to go by. If you are at all
interested, the story I'm currently posting on ASC has no crying in it
and it's about the same length as "Loneliness of Command" (5 parts).
Only the 1st part is up so far.

> Ew. I'd really rather not go there, either. For one thing,
Christmas, while
> an interesting custom, is not native to my religion, and for another,
one of
> the things I loathe about christmas is the oceans and oceans of
nauseating sap
> and mush that surround it nowadays -- in addition to the mindless
> commercialism. Ew.

I agree about the commercialism--I tried to focus more on the
*spirit* behind the holiday than the religious connotations, bearing in
mind that not all my readers will be Christians. It is possible, of
course, to have a totally *secular* Christmas celebration--I had an
atheist pen-pal who did that regularly. (I have a couple of more
holiday stories to be posted next year.)

> Nah. Some of the stuff in there was nicely done. But I'd have red-
penned
> about half of the emotional guff right off the bat. <shrug> IDIC
again I
> suppose. I'm pleasantly surprised to even get an answer from ye, to
tell the
> truth.

I'm always/still trying to make amends with people here, although
some refuse to go along (I'm still in Laura JV's killfile, for
example). Life is too short to let grudges fester.

> Some messages I probably never saw, especially on asc -- I'm lucky if
my server
> shows 30 new a day there. On a good day. As for email, I go thru
phases. If
> I'm busy writing or swamped in RL a lot of it gets put by to answer
later --
> and sometimes later never comes. I've lost my mailbox 4 times in the
last 3
> years due to assorted crashes, and each time it had many "to be
answered"
> messages that I had no way to recover afterwards. shit happens.

How well I know that. My news server sucks and my newsreader won't
let me see messages I post to ASCEM, so I'm familiar with those
problems. I think one was an E-mail and the others were posts.

> Yep. Proof the Great Bird was right to espouse IDIC -- even though
he was
> mainly in it for the money. ;-)> To me, most of the non-slash h/c
I've seen
> varies between a 2 and maybe a 5, with the two Mary's and Ann Z maybe
getting
> up to 8 or 9 at times. Slash varies all the way from minus 2 to 10++,
> depending on author, style, subject, my mood at the time, and so on.
But being
> queer myself, I find slash inherently easier to believe in.

OIC (and that's totally okay--my brother-in-law is gay, and I
really care about and enjoy being around him and his SO). I think I
knew that several people here were not het, so IDIC...

> > Gamin, trying to convert swords to ploughshares
>

> Greywolf, willing to go along for now -- though yer gonna see another
flame,

> where I hit send just before opening *this* one. God is an iron,
Spider
> Robinson was right.

Oh, Okay, I consider myself warned. (My husband reads Spider
Robinson--I'll have to ask him about that reference.)
Gamin

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <003501bfd8be$f8387a60$9ad780ce@oemcomputer>,

"rae_trail" <Rae_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Gamin, trying to convert swords to ploughshares
>

> Only way to do it is with a forge, and the only person can do it is
Vulcan, so you're pretty much fucked (LOL)! Maybe you would just
through the sword into the abyss and smile?
>
> Rae

Works for me. :^)

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <00d501bfd9f3$a9af9500$13c3c6c3@a010029036>,

"kira-nerys" <kar...@kardasi.com> wrote:
> Well, I am sorry Gamin, but I do get loads of emails in my inbox. I'm
on
> too many lists as it is, and didn't have time to respond to your
message.
> There's also been so much crap going on on the newsgroup lately that
I felt
> that getting in deeper with you and stuff that we disagree about
would only
> get things stirred up again.

Okay, I'll buy that. I just generally prefer somebody to at least
warn me by E-mail when they're going to post a comment about my work
that I might consider negative to the NG so I see it coming. This sort
of blindsided me.

> Alas, here I go, putting the stick into the mud and stirring again...

Well, go ahead (everybody else does)...

> Gamin, you're entitled to have Spock bawl his eyes out in your
stories,
> don't get me wrong, but Spock crying at all is very hard for me to
accept,
> unless he's been affected like something akin to the Psi2000 virus,
or he'd
> been through something really crippling, or is affected by someone
else's
> emotions like the Horta's in "The Devil in the Dark"
> Even then I think he would feel shame at doing so. BUT alas, this is
my
> *opinion* and shouldn't stop you from writing what feels right for
you and
> your interpretation of the character.

FWIW, he *always* feels shame when he does it in my stories. But,
I know a lot of people like much more "Vulcan" versions of Spock, so
whatever. I like to focus on his Human half and the problems he has
controlling his emotional reactions, and other people (albeit mostly
not slash fans) have responded postively to my portrayals.

> Well, like is a very lame word. I didnt' exactly dislike your story.
It was
> well-written, but some of the characterizations were 'off' for me.
And it
> wasn't slash. I prefer slash.

"Like" may be lame, but it's more honest than "love" and shorter
than "have a favorable impression of" or whatever your phrase of choice
would be. Yes, I know you prefer slash. Occasionally, slash fans have
been known to like my stories, but of course if all slash fans liked
non-slash to any great degree, they probably wouldn't be slash fans.
(Or something like that.) Makes me wonder why a slash fan would read
non-slash if s/he already knows s/he won't like it. But, oh, well...

> Well I can't say anything about that story of yours since I haven't
read
> it. I haven't read many of your stories at all. I simply checked out
that
> latest thing on ASC, and I'm probably not going to read any more of
your K
> & S, and *why should you care*?

Frankly, I don't. I would never ask somebody to read any of my
stories against their will, or in cases where they know going in
there's almost a 100% chance they won't like it. So I'm not offended
or worried in the slightest by the idea that you won't be reading them
any more. I just wanted to get this matter straightened out. (The
abovementioned story will probably posted to ASC eventually, if you
feel adventurous enough to decide to read it.)

> There are several reasons for that which are my own and don't really
have
> anything to do with your writing, which I found fairly good . IMO
you're a
> pretty okay writer, Gamin, but your stories are not for me. Your
> characterization of Spock isn't for me. And I have to admit when I
read
> about Kirk and Spock I prefer them to be in a loving - romantic -
> relationship. Which sort of rules your stuff out, but that doesn't
mean
> that they're no good, just not for me, y'know.

That's completely okay with me. I strive for perfection with my
writing, but I know I'm not there yet, and besides, perfection, too, is

in the eye of the beholder.

> There's always going to be someone out there who will be okay with
your
> interpretation of Spock, and I'm sure there are loads of ppl who read
your
> stuff and think "God, I'm so glad this isn't slash."

As a matter of fact, there *has* been at least one person to
express such sentiments to me.

>
> Probably there are people out there who like seeing him lose control
and
> shed a tear or two. I have to admit that the part of Spock losing
control
> is a very attractive thought to me, but in other contexts <G> and
yeah,
> that was a lewd statement, which I think I'm entitled to.

<grin> Right. I understand.

> But overly emotional Spock when it comes to crying is something that
rubs
> me the wrong way. Seeing him as a sexual being does not. Personal
> preference.

Right. Now, my POV has always been that it strikes me odd that in
most slash, Spock behaves totally (or as much so as possible) in
character--sometimes, to me, seeming overly Vulcan--until the story
starts dealing with sex scenes and the characters' physical attraction
to each other. Then, IMO (and the things I know about K/S slash you
could count on one hand), he totally goes off the deep end and starts
behaving like any Human with hormone control disorder (yes, I have read
a few of the less explicit K/S things, and even some that were explicit
when I didn't expect them to be from the rating). But that's just my
perception.

> You may argue that it would be more logical to see Spock crying than
be
> sexually attracted to someone, because we've seen him cry onscreen.
Now
> tell me, where did you see Spock cry except for in "Naked Time" where
he
> was affected by the Psi 2000 virus and mind-melding with the Horta?
Are
> there other instances that I just don't remember right now?

Try ST:TMP, toward the end, when he "wept for V'ger". He also
laughed in that movie.

> As for him getting sexually aroused it's happened on several
occasions but
> he was affected by outside forces there as well - Amok Time (pon
farr) All
> our Yesterdays (pre-reform Vulcan de-evolution) This side of Paradise
(the
> Spores) and he's been using his sexuality on other occasions like on
the
> Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" f.i. Granted, we never
saw
> him actually have sex, but he gave some serious finger nookie...

"Amok Time" is the only one of those I really think we have any
evidence for actual sexual arousal on. "All Our Yesterdays", well, I
never bought that interpretation of "racial consciousness"--it just
looked too much like a cheap way to get Spock to emote (at least when
*I* do it, my ways are expensive <g>), especially since *McCoy* never
reverted. "This Side of Paradise" shows no on-screen evidence of sex--
I take his changing clothes as being symbolic of his having "joined"
the Omicron Ceti III community, nothing more. And I definitely think
there was no sex in "Enterprise Incident"--partly because of
discussions between Nimoy and DC Fontana and partly because I can't
conceive that Spock would go *that far* in the name of Starfleet duty
(there's no emotional attachment or commitment, so it couldn't be much
of anything else).
Most of these episodes are cases, again, of people reading what
they want to read into them, partly IMO because Hollywood has
conditioned (or tried to) people to *think* that sex *must* be the
conclusion of such scenes--but that isn't necessarily true. (Hehe--I'm
sure you wish you hadn't started me on this by now...)

> So one can argue oneself blue whether it is more logical to see Spock
cry
> or have sex. I'd say both are perhaps just as illogical.
> What I find most ... alarming ... in your posts is the way that you
seem to
> think that any thoughs of K/S are *lewd*. Like the scene in the Wrath
of
> Khan when Spock dies. Just because we slashfen find that a very
romantic
> scene and see a lot of romantic *love* there doesn't make us lewd. Or
> seeing sexual attraction or romantic love in the Sickbay scene in TMP
> doesn't make us lewd either.
> Why is it lewd to see romantic love between two men? Do you think
that any
> such scene has us slashfen thinking about Spock and Kirk in variouis
sexual
> positions on the floor? That's definitely not the way it is for me.

Because *to me* it is--sorry, but I can't help thinking that way.
Now, does that mean *you* or any other slash fen have to worry about
that? Heck, no--this is just the way I am, and sorry, but my
upbringing just doesn't allow for me to view the idea of people
fantasizing m/m relationships between characters presumed by most
people (probably including the creators) to be het any other way. That
said, *you* certainly should not be concerned or inhibited if this is
what appeals to you--even if it does involve imagining them "in various
sexual positions" (no, I'm sure most/many slash fans aren't like that,
but some do give that impression from their writings--though only a non-
slash fan would probably think so--they put a sexual spin on any scene
where Kirk and Spock seem to me to be just expressing friendship for
each other).
You say, why should I care what you think of my version of Spock?
Well, why should *you* care what I or any other non-slash fan thinks of
slash? It's just as irrelevant, when you come right down to it. It is
no more my intention than it probably is yours to dampen any creative
juices. None of us are making any profit off these stories anyway, so
speculate away and write what you want to write. If *anybody* likes it-
-regardless of my opinion--then it's a worthy effort.

>K/S to me is a relationship filled with tendernes, loyalty, duty,
> companionship, understanding, friendship, sparkling witty
conversations,
> laughter, sorrow, care, working well together, mutual respect - and
yes,
> sexual attraction, but that's only a part of their relationship to
me. The
> way I see it, that isn't lewd.

Well, I only see the sexual part as "lewd" (and believe it or not,
I try to incorporate as many of those other aspects of their
relationship as I can into my stories)--but as I said, if it's what you
enjoy, and others enjoy reading it, then why pay any attention to me?
This is just my opinion.

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <200006182258_...@compuserve.com>,

J S Cavalcante <10276...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Maybe it's that you've targeted your stories to the right audience. I
> think your original post was in reply to one by a gen author who
didn't
> want her work to be construed as K/S? In her case, she's got a more
> general target audience that happens to include K/Sers. (And maybe
some of
> our wicked minds are preprogrammed to read slashy situations into
anything.
> <g>)

That's about right. My intended audience is people (fans) who like
Kirk and Spock and their friendship, and who want to see Spock's
emotional side. I don't care whether slash fans turn out to be part of
that group or not; certainly I won't, and haven't, object(ed) if that's
the case.

>I've heard the comment "my stories are my babies" many times,
> in fandom, from people who had never been edited and had never been
given
> much feedback before. Professionals get edited a lot, and
copyedited, and
> they get used to it. That's all. There are people who have never

Again, FWIW, I have been writing for fanzines for 20 years--I have
been getting and still get edited. I have a B.A. in English and have
been writing for audiences since grade school. I *have* a professional
attitude (at least as much as possible for someone who hasn't actually
ever been paid to write, though that is or should be irrelevant, as you
said). I also have my version of "beta-readers", at least one, who
feedbacks me regularly. It doesn't cut down in the slightest on my
*initial* protectivenes regarding my work.

> Do you get edited much? I can tell from looking at recently published
> books and magazine articles that people are editing (and copyediting)
less
> and less these days. Maybe it will take many professionals longer to
> adjust if they're not getting raked over the proverbial coals as
often.

My last zine went through as much as 10 rounds of editing on one
story. My editor and I are equally thorough (although of course, my
latest posted stories haven't been edited yet, which is why I posted
them--for feedback and ideas).
Gamin, just jumping in

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <76.4f7907...@aol.com>,

vana...@aol.com wrote:
> > Gamin, trying to convert swords to ploughshares

> This is a honourable thing to do IMHO.

I hope so--I didn't really set out to add to the furor on this NG,
but when I see somebody mentioning one of my stories and slash in the
same sentence, I can't help responding. No insults intended to anyone,
really--I just wanted to correct the erroneous idea that I write
slash. Most people reading this NG like slash, obviously, and if I
wasn't okay with that, I wouldn't still be reading ASCEM.
Gamin

[hafital]

On Thu, 22 June 2000, laura jacquez valentine wrote:

>
>
>
> --On Thursday, June 22, 2000, 8:07 AM -0700 hafital <haf...@worldspy.net>
> wrote:r
>
> > (My favorite
> >> mix tape contains both of those men, incidentally, and when I mentioned
> >> that on an Iggy Pop list, I got several "Whoa, you too?" responses.)
> >
> > heehee. I love the Bing Crosby/David Bowie duet of the little drummer
> > boy. And Iggy singing Cole Porter is just amazing.
>
> Yeah, isn't that sweet (the Bowie/Crosby)?

Yeah, even though I despise Crosby. He does have one gorgeous voice. And Bowie is...well he's Bowie. What more can I say?

hafital, thinking there should be a Spock/Ziggy story written.

--
"God forbid a straight person should acknowledge that there
are pleasures associated with his anus."

--Phil Hartman

==========================================================
Visit Hafital's Smutty Star Trek Paradise

http://www.geocities.com/hafital2/
______________________________________________________________
Get free Internet service and email at http://www.worldspy.com

[T'Rhys]

At 09:18 PM 6/21/2000 -0400, ascem-use...@trekfiction.com wrote:
>
>but of course if all slash fans liked
>non-slash to any great degree, they probably wouldn't be slash fans.
>(Or something like that.) Makes me wonder why a slash fan would read
>non-slash if s/he already knows s/he won't like it. But, oh, well...
>

Whoa, nellie. Just because someone is a slash fan doesn't automatically
mean they won't like non-slash. Some of us were reading non-slash before
getting into slash and some of us still are reading non-slash even after.
Some of us even read NON-TREK scifi/fantasy.

LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tgkn...@netcom.com>

[laura jacquez valentine]

--On Thursday, June 22, 2000, 7:48 AM -0700 T'Rhys <tgkn...@netcom.com>
wrote:r

> At 09:18 PM 6/21/2000 -0400, ascem-use...@trekfiction.com wrote:
>>
>> but of course if all slash fans liked
>> non-slash to any great degree, they probably wouldn't be slash fans.
>> (Or something like that.) Makes me wonder why a slash fan would read
>> non-slash if s/he already knows s/he won't like it. But, oh, well...
>>
>
> Whoa, nellie. Just because someone is a slash fan doesn't automatically
> mean they won't like non-slash. Some of us were reading non-slash before
> getting into slash and some of us still are reading non-slash even after.
> Some of us even read NON-TREK scifi/fantasy.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask "Gamin Davis?" about what T'Rhys
is quoting.

At any rate, the first Trekfic I posted was non-slash, and I'm pretty much
rampantly bifictional in my reading, although I don't like most het
(probably because I don't have good enough filters in place to eliminate
the bad stuff). And I'm with T'Rhys completely on this issue: being a fan
of slash does not mean you can't be a fan of other stuff as well, any more
than liking Iggy Pop means you can't also like Bing Crosby. (My favorite

mix tape contains both of those men, incidentally, and when I mentioned
that on an Iggy Pop list, I got several "Whoa, you too?" responses.)

--laura

laura jacquez valentine --- http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~jacquez/

[kira-nerys]

----- Original Message -----
From: <ascem-use...@trekfiction.com>
To: <asc...@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 3:18 AM
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

> From: gamin...@my-deja.com
>
> In article <00d501bfd9f3$a9af9500$13c3c6c3@a010029036>,
> "kira-nerys" <kar...@kardasi.com> wrote:
> > Well, I am sorry Gamin, but I do get loads of emails in my inbox. I'm
> on
> > too many lists as it is, and didn't have time to respond to your
> message.
> > There's also been so much crap going on on the newsgroup lately that
> I felt
> > that getting in deeper with you and stuff that we disagree about
> would only
> > get things stirred up again.
>
> Okay, I'll buy that. I just generally prefer somebody to at least
> warn me by E-mail when they're going to post a comment about my work
> that I might consider negative to the NG so I see it coming. This sort
> of blindsided me.

Being out here means that our stories might be commented. Having it out
there on a public newsgroup may result in someone commenting on it very
negatively or very positively without you ever finding out. That's life on
a NG I suppose.

> FWIW, he *always* feels shame when he does it in my stories. But,
> I know a lot of people like much more "Vulcan" versions of Spock, so
> whatever. I like to focus on his Human half and the problems he has
> controlling his emotional reactions, and other people (albeit mostly
> not slash fans) have responded postively to my portrayals.

I can relate to some of it, Gamin, because I too like to concentrate on
Spock's human half because it is often forgotten IMO. And I'm happy for you
that ppl respond positively to your portrayal. Good for you. IDIC?

> > Well, like is a very lame word. I didnt' exactly dislike your story.
> It was
> > well-written, but some of the characterizations were 'off' for me.
> And it
> > wasn't slash. I prefer slash.
>
> "Like" may be lame, but it's more honest than "love" and shorter
> than "have a favorable impression of" or whatever your phrase of choice
> would be. Yes, I know you prefer slash. Occasionally, slash fans have
> been known to like my stories, but of course if all slash fans liked
> non-slash to any great degree, they probably wouldn't be slash fans.
> (Or something like that.) Makes me wonder why a slash fan would read
> non-slash if s/he already knows s/he won't like it. But, oh, well...

You twist my words. Your comment more or less states that it's weird of me
to read your story because it isn't slash because I prefer slash.... I've
loved reading K, S stories that AREN'T slash. I prefer slash though. It

doesn't have to be either/or.

Once more for clarification. If slash fans have been known to like your
stories. Great. More power to you. BUT the reason I didn't exactly fall
head over heels with your story wasn't the fact that it wasn't slash -
since I saw slash in it, you're kind of missing the point. You don't feel
that it's slash - okay, the slashy bits are in essence in the eyes of the
reader so to speak. What I didn't like was your characterization of Spock.
Period. My opinion. Others like your Spock. Wonderful.

> That's completely okay with me. I strive for perfection with my
> writing, but I know I'm not there yet, and besides, perfection, too, is
> in the eye of the beholder.

Indeed. I've never claimed to be perfect. And what's perfect for me would
obviously not be for you and vice versa.

> As a matter of fact, there *has* been at least one person to
> express such sentiments to me.

Why did I know you would assure me of that?

> Right. Now, my POV has always been that it strikes me odd that in
> most slash, Spock behaves totally (or as much so as possible) in
> character--sometimes, to me, seeming overly Vulcan--until the story
> starts dealing with sex scenes and the characters' physical attraction
> to each other. Then, IMO (and the things I know about K/S slash you
> could count on one hand), he totally goes off the deep end and starts
> behaving like any Human with hormone control disorder (yes, I have read
> a few of the less explicit K/S things, and even some that were explicit
> when I didn't expect them to be from the rating). But that's just my
> perception.

Well, to me this is kind of a natural evolution in a K/S. When K/S becomes
sexually involved, the only one seeing Spock lose control is the one he
loves. That's okay. He can let his emotions loose. Which to me is a pretty
logical way to explain why Spock acts Vulcan at all other times, except
when he has sex with the one he loves.

And this above is what you say - your perception. I've got a different one
and I think we just won't ever see eye to eye on this. In your eyes this is
lewd, and seeing K/S as a couple romantically/sexually involved is wrong.
Why do I discuss it with you? - we're never going to agree. So, let's agree
to disagree.

> Try ST:TMP, toward the end, when he "wept for V'ger". He also
> laughed in that movie.

Yeah. Well that was one more time. I'd forgotten that. It still doesn't
convince me that it's more probable that Spock would cry than have sex. I
think the odds are about 50/50

I can see Spock having friends or lovers. Both works for me.

> "Amok Time" is the only one of those I really think we have any
> evidence for actual sexual arousal on.

kind of hard to dismiss that one.

> "All Our Yesterdays", well, I
> never bought that interpretation of "racial consciousness"--it just
> looked too much like a cheap way to get Spock to emote (at least when
> *I* do it, my ways are expensive <g>), especially since *McCoy* never
> reverted.

huh? That was a very convenient way of dismissing clear acts on screen. In
every way it was kind of obvious that Spock did have sex with Sarabeth. He
did get emotional. He did kiss her. Kissing to me is a very erotic act. And
that kiss kinda sizzled. Whether it is "a cheap way to get Spock to emote"
isn't the issue. It's canon. Feel free to dismiss canon if you wish. We all
do that in one way or another.

> "This Side of Paradise" shows no on-screen evidence of sex--
> I take his changing clothes as being symbolic of his having "joined"
> the Omicron Ceti III community, nothing more.

Unfortunately, I still haven't SEEN this episode, only had it retold to me,
so I can't argue with you on this one.

> And I definitely think
> there was no sex in "Enterprise Incident"--partly because of
> discussions between Nimoy and DC Fontana and partly because I can't
> conceive that Spock would go *that far* in the name of Starfleet duty
> (there's no emotional attachment or commitment, so it couldn't be much
> of anything else).

Well, if nothing else went on - such as sex - it was quite obvious that the
Romulan commander took it for granted that he could perform sexually, that
he was capable of sexual attraction and since she ought to know more about
Vulcans than most I think I'd rather believe what went on onscreen than
your interpretation of the whole thing. Besides. Onscreen sex. Can you
point us to *ONE* instance where that has happened in TOS? It wasn't
something they did very often on TV back then. If we were to assume there
is no sex going on between characters because they didn't show it onscreen,
the future looks grim. No more little Federation citizens. And no, I
realize that K/S isn't a good way of producing more little Feds, but there
are others who can populate the universe IMO.

> Most of these episodes are cases, again, of people reading what
> they want to read into them, partly IMO because Hollywood has
> conditioned (or tried to) people to *think* that sex *must* be the
> conclusion of such scenes--but that isn't necessarily true. (Hehe--I'm
> sure you wish you hadn't started me on this by now...)

Nothing says there wasn't sex going on either. I guess that too is up to
the viewer to make up their mind about. But in your world sex is kinda
non-existent, right? Why *are* you on a newsgroup that is centered around
EROTICA? I'm not trying to say "Leave, Gamin because you don't fit in" I'm
genuinely curious. It really surprises me that you - with your attitude
toward sex in general (or at least the way I've interpreted your comments)
are on Alt. Startrek Creative EROTICA.

> Do you think
> that any
> > such scene has us slashfen thinking about Spock and Kirk in variouis
> sexual
> > positions on the floor? That's definitely not the way it is for me.
>
> Because *to me* it is--sorry, but I can't help thinking that way.

Then whose mind is lewd? I can watch a scene between Kirk and Spock and
only see the love there. Is that lewd? I don't have to imagine them in bed
together, but the love's there.

> Now, does that mean *you* or any other slash fen have to worry about
> that? Heck, no--this is just the way I am, and sorry, but my
> upbringing just doesn't allow for me to view the idea of people
> fantasizing m/m relationships between characters presumed by most
> people (probably including the creators) to be het any other way. That
> said, *you* certainly should not be concerned or inhibited if this is
> what appeals to you--even if it does involve imagining them "in various
> sexual positions" (no, I'm sure most/many slash fans aren't like that,
> but some do give that impression from their writings--though only a non-
> slash fan would probably think so--they put a sexual spin on any scene
> where Kirk and Spock seem to me to be just expressing friendship for
> each other).

Well, yes, I do put a sexual spin to a lot of scenes, but I also do put a
romantic love spin to a lot of scenes.

And I'm sorry ... I don't understand why this bugs you so much. Why does it
drive you up a wall at the idea of Spock and Kirk being lovers? I don't
understand it and that's probably why I keep this discussion going although
I am beginnning to see how futile it is. Because I'm not saying that
stories that have K/S being friends and just friends are wrong. They're
fine with me and some of them are *really, really* good.

> You say, why should I care what you think of my version of Spock?
> Well, why should *you* care what I or any other non-slash fan thinks of
> slash?

I don't - not really. I think it's an inherent thing in me. Curiousity,
interest.

> >K/S to me is a relationship filled with tendernes, loyalty, duty,
> > companionship, understanding, friendship, sparkling witty
> conversations,
> > laughter, sorrow, care, working well together, mutual respect - and
> yes,
> > sexual attraction, but that's only a part of their relationship to
> me. The
> > way I see it, that isn't lewd.
>
> Well, I only see the sexual part as "lewd" (and believe it or not,
> I try to incorporate as many of those other aspects of their
> relationship as I can into my stories)--but as I said, if it's what you
> enjoy, and others enjoy reading it, then why pay any attention to me?
> This is just my opinion.
> Gamin

Yeah, I think the weird thing is that we both see a lot of the same things
in the K/S relationship, apart from the sexuality of it.

What I wonder is why you can't accept the idea of K/S as a couple? I mean,
it's not like you have to be either a slash fan or not a slash fan. You can
be both. I am. I read S/f, Spock/Uhura, Spock/Chapel or stories where there
isn't a sexual relationship at all. The K/S universe isn't exclusive to me.
I like K/S, but I can enjoy other stories too. But you seem intent on that
there is no such thing going on between Kirk and Spock and I wonder why you
protest so vehemently. Why is the idea of homosexual love between them so
wrong for you. You told me you had a relative who was gay and enjoyed their
company.

Is it the idea of explicit sexual love between two men that bother you,
that you don't want to read about?

To me, love is love, whether it's between a man and a woman or two men or
two women. There's nothing lewd in that.

How do you feel about reading het-smut?? Do you think that's *lewd* as
well.

I think that's what I'm hung up on - the word lewd. Live's fun being
sexually open, but lewd has such a negative ring to it and doesn't have
much to do with love.

kira-nerys

[laura jacquez valentine]

--On Thursday, June 22, 2000, 8:07 AM -0700 hafital <haf...@worldspy.net>
wrote:r

> (My favorite

>> mix tape contains both of those men, incidentally, and when I mentioned
>> that on an Iggy Pop list, I got several "Whoa, you too?" responses.)
>

> heehee. I love the Bing Crosby/David Bowie duet of the little drummer
> boy. And Iggy singing Cole Porter is just amazing.

Yeah, isn't that sweet (the Bowie/Crosby)?

:)

laura jacquez valentine --- http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~jacquez/

[kira-nerys]

----- Original Message -----
From: T'Rhys <tgkn...@netcom.com>
To: <ASC...@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

> At 09:18 PM 6/21/2000 -0400, ascem-use...@trekfiction.com wrote:
> >

> >but of course if all slash fans liked
> >non-slash to any great degree, they probably wouldn't be slash fans.
> >(Or something like that.) Makes me wonder why a slash fan would read
> >non-slash if s/he already knows s/he won't like it. But, oh, well...
> >
>

> Whoa, nellie. Just because someone is a slash fan doesn't automatically
> mean they won't like non-slash. Some of us were reading non-slash before
> getting into slash and some of us still are reading non-slash even after.
> Some of us even read NON-TREK scifi/fantasy.
>

> LL&P }:)
> "T'Rhys" <tgkn...@netcom.com>

I think Gamin was responding to *my* words about prefering non-slash. I'm
pretty certain it wasn't a general thing said to all slash-fen.

kira-nerys

[hafital]

On Thu, 22 June 2000, laura jacquez valentine wrote:

> >> but of course if all slash fans liked
> >> non-slash to any great degree, they probably wouldn't be slash fans.
> >> (Or something like that.) Makes me wonder why a slash fan would read
> >> non-slash if s/he already knows s/he won't like it. But, oh, well...
> >>
> >
> > Whoa, nellie. Just because someone is a slash fan doesn't automatically
> > mean they won't like non-slash. Some of us were reading non-slash before
> > getting into slash and some of us still are reading non-slash even after.
> > Some of us even read NON-TREK scifi/fantasy.
>

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask "Gamin Davis?" about what T'Rhys
> is quoting.
>
> At any rate, the first Trekfic I posted was non-slash, and I'm pretty much
> rampantly bifictional in my reading, although I don't like most het
> (probably because I don't have good enough filters in place to eliminate
> the bad stuff). And I'm with T'Rhys completely on this issue:

I'm not going to get into this much, other then to say "me too!". My whole Speak Into Silence series isn't slash. I adore well written gen stories and het stories, although I won't deny I have certain tastes.

I don't know if Gamin was meaning to imply that slash fans don't like non-slash, or just making a statement that wasn't clear. *shrug* And I really don't care. I like what I like, I write what I write.

<sniparonni>

(My favorite
> mix tape contains both of those men, incidentally, and when I mentioned
> that on an Iggy Pop list, I got several "Whoa, you too?" responses.)

heehee. I love the Bing Crosby/David Bowie duet of the little drummer boy. And Iggy singing Cole Porter is just amazing.

hafital

--
"God forbid a straight person should acknowledge that there
are pleasures associated with his anus."

--Phil Hartman

==========================================================
Visit Hafital's Smutty Star Trek Paradise

http://www.geocities.com/hafital2/
______________________________________________________________
Get free Internet service and email at http://www.worldspy.com

[Kiri...@aol.com]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, "T'Rhys" <tgknight@n...> wrote:

> At 09:18 PM 6/21/2000 -0400, ascem-usenet-relay1@t... wrote:
> >
> >but of course if all slash fans liked
> >non-slash to any great degree, they probably wouldn't be slash
fans.
> >(Or something like that.) Makes me wonder why a slash fan would
read
> >non-slash if s/he already knows s/he won't like it. But, oh,
well...
> >
>
> Whoa, nellie. Just because someone is a slash fan doesn't
automatically
> mean they won't like non-slash. Some of us were reading non-slash
before
> getting into slash and some of us still are reading non-slash even
after.
> Some of us even read NON-TREK scifi/fantasy.
>

> LL&P }:)
> "T'Rhys" <tgknight@n...>

That's me. I'm a pairing girl. (G) If a pairing calls to me, I
read it. It doesn't matter to me if it's m/m or m/f. Heck *my*
Spock gets action on both sides of the fence. (so to speak). I've
read a fairly vast number of pairings, some only once, cuz I just
couldn't get into them, or couldn't *see* them.

But some out there, just grab you by the throat and won't let go,
regardless of whether you've even *thought* of the particular pairing
before. That's how it was for me with both the Tu/P and the Tu/K
even more so the Tu/K. The first time I saw the latter I was
like...*NO WAY!*, but my curiosity got the better of me and I read
the story anyway. It was "The session" by Yvette (had to go look it
up(G)) and I was hooked.

Kiri

P.S. Yvette, you wouldn't happen to be anywhere near finished
with "One for the Road" would you??

[Kiri...@aol.com]

> --
> "God forbid a straight person should acknowledge that there
> are pleasures associated with his anus."
>
> --Phil Hartman
>

ROTFL!!! Hafital, love your tag line!! It does bring to mind a
question I've had for ages.....please forgive me if this is like the
most naive question ever asked on this list. LOL But...Do women
have anything similar that would make anal penetration pleasant??
I've often wondered at the attraction of it to some??

Kiri

> ==========================================================
> Visit Hafital's Smutty Star Trek Paradise
>
> http://www.geocities.com/hafital2/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Get free Internet service and email at http://www.worldspy.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com

>Some of us even read NON-TREK scifi/fantasy.

LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tgkn...@netcom.com>
<

Yeah, and lots of other things, too! Mysteries, mainstream novels,
nonfiction, the backs of cereal boxes . . . and megabytes of email. <g>

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

[Laura Jacquez Valentine]

I forget who coined it, but it is a great word....

--On Thursday, June 22, 2000, 10:37 PM -0400 J S Cavalcante
<10276...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com

>> I'm pretty much
> rampantly bifictional in my reading<
>

> ROFL--love that expression, laura. <g>

laura jacquez valentine -+- http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~jacquez
current residence: the home for the intermittently daft
Jesus is a meme. -+- http://www.memepool.com/

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com
>I'm pretty much
rampantly bifictional in my reading<

ROFL--love that expression, laura. <g>

J S Cavalcante

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com

>heehee. I love the Bing Crosby/David Bowie duet of the little drummer
boy.<

Ooh, so do I!

[Mark Stanley]

Kiri...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --
> > "God forbid a straight person should acknowledge that there
> > are pleasures associated with his anus."
> >
> > --Phil Hartman
> >
>
> ROTFL!!! Hafital, love your tag line!! It does bring to mind a
> question I've had for ages.....please forgive me if this is like the
> most naive question ever asked on this list. LOL But...Do women
> have anything similar that would make anal penetration pleasant??
> I've often wondered at the attraction of it to some??
>

Some women do find anal penetration pleasant, but women don't have a
prostate or anything similar, so anal penetration is not *nearly* as
pleasant for women as it is for most men.

Mark
--

If you are having a debate with someone and they say 'Let's agree to
disagree..' Just say: 'No, let's not.' -- Gorilla of Destiny
~~~
mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca

ICQ# 51278836

http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/

[Mark Stanley]

"jat (Jane)" wrote:

>
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:16:23 Mark Stanley wrote:
> >Some women do find anal penetration pleasant, but women don't have a
> >prostate or anything similar, so anal penetration is not *nearly* as
> >pleasant for women as it is for most men.
>

> Well, setting aside that nobody since Tiresias has been able to personally compare...I doubt that a prostate is added in transgen surgery, though if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me know.
>

No, a prostate isn't added in FTM surgery. We have to use our
imaginations. :0)

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by Gamin

>I *have* a professional
attitude (at least as much as possible for someone who hasn't actually
ever been paid to write, though that is or should be irrelevant, as you
said).<

It should be irrelevant, but may not be for some. (I am speaking in
general terms, not about you or anyone in particular.) It helps to work
with professional editors. They do not have time for "artistic
temperament" in any but their most celebrated authors, and I'm sure that in
general the most celebrated ones actually have the most professional
attitudes. Being known as a freelancer who can work well with an editor is
an important aspect of landing an assignment.

> I also have my version of "beta-readers", at least one, who
feedbacks me regularly. It doesn't cut down in the slightest on my
*initial* protectivenes regarding my work.<

Well, what I was trying to suggest to . . . kira-nerys, was it? . . . was
that having a thicker skin might be beneficial to an author. I consider
that part of the professional attitude, but maybe your mileage varies?
Perhaps I do not understand what you meant to convey. You seemed to be
saying that you have a professional attitude, but you have not developed a
thick skin about "criticism" yet, at least in the initial stages of
editing. If that's what you meant, what I want to ask is . . . what is
your point? That even professionals are highly sensitive to criticism of
their work? I'm saying that if they are, they ought to get over it. Not
because it's the "right" thing to do, but because they will suffer less.
To grow a thicker skin means they actually have higher self-esteem--so high
that they *don't* freak out when someone criticizes a story. I'm not
talking about ignoring people's comments: that doesn't proceed out of
self-esteem but arrogance, false self-esteem. I mean a real understanding
that no one can knock you (the general "you") off your track, so you can
accept any comments whatsoever and know that they cannot hurt you. They're
not even about *you,* but about the story; they're not criticizing your
vision or your individuality, but only the method of execution of your
ideas . . . and you can have sufficient distance between who you really are
and your work that you never take it personally. (If someone criticizes
*you*--they are out of line.) You can keep your emotions out of the
discussion and take a dispassionate look at people's comments and see if
there's anything in them that you can use. That's why I'm saying it might
be beneficial; because you then get all the goodies and none of the pain.

> My last zine went through as much as 10 rounds of editing on one
>story. My editor and I are equally thorough (although of course, my
>latest posted stories haven't been edited yet, which is why I posted
>them--for feedback and ideas).
> Gamin, just jumping in

It sounds as though you work well with editors. <g> Well then, I am a bit
perplexed as to what point you are making. Are you also one who says "my
stories are my babies"? It was that comment that I was specifically
addressing in my post to kira-nerys.

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

[jat (Jane)]

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:16:23 Mark Stanley wrote:
>Some women do find anal penetration pleasant, but women don't have a
>prostate or anything similar, so anal penetration is not *nearly* as
>pleasant for women as it is for most men.

Well, setting aside that nobody since Tiresias has been able to personally compare...I doubt that a prostate is added in transgen surgery, though if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me know.

Anyway. I'm told that it stimulates the same muscle wall --so basically the same nerves-- as vaginal intercourse, but from the other side. Some women love it. I don't know whether they tend to be the ones who find vaginal intercourse less satisfying or more. I never trust that kind of study anyway.

Jane/jat
---
story page:
http://homestead.deja.com/user.jat_sapphire/index.html

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Before you buy.

[kira-nerys]

> It sounds as though you work well with editors. <g> Well then, I am a
bit
> perplexed as to what point you are making. Are you also one who says "my
> stories are my babies"? It was that comment that I was specifically
> addressing in my post to kira-nerys.
>
> LL&P
> J S Cavalcante

Hmm.... I think you got a bit too hung up on those words. What I meant by
that is that when I have written a story I am proud of it. I feel like -
hey, I've finished something, and I do get a feeling like "this is my baby"
but that's after the editing is done. Editing is a necessary part of
writing professionally, and it doesn't hurt me. So in that department I
feel confident. I have rather thick skin and I realize that this is only a
part of getting the story as good as it can be. Another POV is often
necessary to pick out plot-holes, inconsistencies etc. That's fine.

But I also put a difference between getting edited by a professional editor
and getting bad reviews. Feedback is sort of the reviews in fandom. And
getting bad feedback - negative, can hurt sometimes, as well as getting bad
reviews on something you've written.

Does that make more sense to you?

kira-nerys

[kira-nerys]

----- Original Message -----
From: <ascem-use...@trekfiction.com>
To: <asc...@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 3:19 AM
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

> From: gamin...@my-deja.com
>
> In article <394BF16A...@snowcrest.net>,
> Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net> wrote:
> > Not always. When you pop off with crap like you sometimes do, I fire
> off a
> > reply. You can be quite civilized when you care to bother, and it's
> always a
> > pleasant surprise. But walkin' in here and styling yerself clean and
> > uncorrupted is asking for flames, and I reckon you know that. So
> what, ya get
> > bored and like gettin' stomped now and then? Doesn't make much sense
> to me,
> > but IDIC I guess.
>
> This was not an attempt at flame-bait at all. I was merely
> responding to kira-nerys, who posted that comment without the courtesy
> of so much as a one-line "I'm going to post this" E-mail to me.

I didn't think that was necessary since you are a very vocal member of this
mailinglist/ newsgroup. I just assumed that you would get to read it
anyway.

> I *thought* the negative (and to me, it was) stuff was supposed to be
> confined to E-mail. No, I get very tired of being "stomped", and it
> still seems to me that I am not wholly to blame. But I digress...

I didn't feel that my message to you was particularly negative actually, or
that I was *stomping* you. I was simply using your story as an example of K
& S that IMHO bordered on K/S. And then I asked ppl to state where their
lines were drawn. Since you said that you didn't mind that ppl read K/S
into your stuff, I don't see what the problem is.

kira-nerys

[Kiri...@aol.com]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, "jat (Jane) " <jat_sapphire@m...> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:16:23 Mark Stanley wrote:
> >Some women do find anal penetration pleasant, but women don't have
a
> >prostate or anything similar, so anal penetration is not *nearly*
as
> >pleasant for women as it is for most men.
>
> Well, setting aside that nobody since Tiresias has been able to
personally compare...I doubt that a prostate is added in transgen
surgery, though if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me know.
>
> Anyway. I'm told that it stimulates the same muscle wall --so
basically the same nerves-- as vaginal intercourse, but from the
other side. Some women love it. I don't know whether they tend to
be the ones who find vaginal intercourse less satisfying or more. I
never trust that kind of study anyway.
>
> Jane/jat

Hmmm...interesting thought there. I never looked at it that way. (G)

Kiri

> ---
> story page:
> http://homestead.deja.com/user.jat_sapphire/index.html
>
>
>
> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
> Before you buy.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[Kiri...@aol.com]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, "control Function" <controlFunction@h...>
wrote:
> Is this what I think it sounds like??? Mark?
>
> I'll do you a swap babe...my prostate and gonads for your ovaries
and
> uterus...(and I'll throw in a free set of steak knives!!! )
>
> just imagine...you could auction that kind of stuff on
> ebay...jesus....<control falling off the chair at her own witticism>
>
> tres amuseant mon petit moncheaux
> xx
>
lolololol...I can see it now!!

Kiri
>
>
> "This is a local shop, there's nothing for you here"

>
> >
> >No, a prostate isn't added in FTM surgery. We have to use our
> >imaginations. :0)
> >
> >Mark
> >--
> >
> >If you are having a debate with someone and they say 'Let's agree
to
> >disagree..' Just say: 'No, let's not.' -- Gorilla of Destiny
> >~~~

> >mrs260@s...
> >
> >ICQ# 51278836
> >
> >http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com

[Kiri...@aol.com]

> >
>
> Some women do find anal penetration pleasant, but women don't have a
> prostate or anything similar, so anal penetration is not *nearly* as
> pleasant for women as it is for most men.
>

> Mark

Thank you, Mark. (G)

Kiri (who dearly loves this list as a source of information she could
probably never ask anywhere else) LOL

> --
>
> If you are having a debate with someone and they say 'Let's agree to
> disagree..' Just say: 'No, let's not.' -- Gorilla of Destiny
> ~~~
> mrs260@s...
>
> ICQ# 51278836
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[hafital]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, "jat (Jane) " <jat_sapphire@m...> wrote:
> Anyway. I'm told that it stimulates the same muscle wall --so
basically the same nerves-- as vaginal intercourse, but from the
other side. Some women love it. I don't know whether they tend to
be the ones who find vaginal intercourse less satisfying or more. I
never trust that kind of study anyway.

I had a roomate in college who told me about her anal sex
experiences. She loved it. In fact, she raved about it. But I guess,
just like not all men enjoy anal sex, neither can we expect all woman
to either. Or vis versa. It's a very personal thing, like positions.
Some positions work *really* well for me, but not for you, or
something...<g>

hafital

[control Function]

Is this what I think it sounds like??? Mark?

I'll do you a swap babe...my prostate and gonads for your ovaries and
uterus...(and I'll throw in a free set of steak knives!!! )

just imagine...you could auction that kind of stuff on
ebay...jesus....<control falling off the chair at her own witticism>

tres amuseant mon petit moncheaux
xx

"This is a local shop, there's nothing for you here"

>
>No, a prostate isn't added in FTM surgery. We have to use our
>imaginations. :0)
>
>Mark

>--
>
>If you are having a debate with someone and they say 'Let's agree to
>disagree..' Just say: 'No, let's not.' -- Gorilla of Destiny
>~~~

>mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca
>
>ICQ# 51278836
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[Kiri...@aol.com]

> I had a roomate in college who told me about her anal sex
> experiences. She loved it. In fact, she raved about it. But I
guess,
> just like not all men enjoy anal sex, neither can we expect all
woman
> to either. Or vis versa. It's a very personal thing, like
positions.
> Some positions work *really* well for me, but not for you, or
> something...<g>
>
> hafital

It's sometimes amazing the diversity from one individual to another,
considering the fact that we are all also so very similar in innate
body structure. What one person of either gender will find
stimulating leaves another completely cold, and saying ho hum, are
you actually going to do something here?

Kiri (who's glad she got up the nerve to ask. (G))

[control Function]

Perhaps that is the case...it depends on the individual...I'm (very
worringly perhaps) rather knowledgeable about anal sex...

some women find it intensely stimulating cos it can push against the inner
side of the vaginal wall from the other side...so to speak...but yes...the
prostate thing makes a difference....

I just wish I could have hips and a fully functional uterus etc...then I'd
be a happy little urchin....(oh for nanoprobes!!!!)

>From: Mark Stanley <mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca>
>Reply-To: ASC...@egroups.com
>To: ASC...@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash
>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:16:23 +0000
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>Kiri...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > --
> > > "God forbid a straight person should acknowledge that there
> > > are pleasures associated with his anus."
> > >
> > > --Phil Hartman
> > >
> >
> > ROTFL!!! Hafital, love your tag line!! It does bring to mind a
> > question I've had for ages.....please forgive me if this is like the
> > most naive question ever asked on this list. LOL But...Do women
> > have anything similar that would make anal penetration pleasant??
> > I've often wondered at the attraction of it to some??
> >
>

>Some women do find anal penetration pleasant, but women don't have a
>prostate or anything similar, so anal penetration is not *nearly* as
>pleasant for women as it is for most men.
>

>Mark
>--
>
>If you are having a debate with someone and they say 'Let's agree to
>disagree..' Just say: 'No, let's not.' -- Gorilla of Destiny
>~~~
>mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca
>
>ICQ# 51278836
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by kira-nerys

>Hmm.... I think you got a bit too hung up on those words.

Probably. As I mentioned, I've heard them before. <g>

>But I also put a difference between getting edited by a professional
editor
>and getting bad reviews. Feedback is sort of the reviews in fandom. And
>getting bad feedback - negative, can hurt sometimes, as well as getting
bad
>reviews on something you've written.
>Does that make more sense to you?

Yes. Thank you for the clear explanation. Writing is the only field in
which the artist gets critiqued in the same medium. Painters, for example,
get reviewed in words, not in paint. Actors get reviewed in words, not in
scenes. Writing is a little cannibalistic in that sense <g>; and there's
no good escape from people's reacting that they would have done something
differently.

But you *can* still use some of the information that you receive in
reviews. You use it in the next story, though. If you're writing to
achieve a specific effect, you do need to know--from your intended
audience--whether what you tried worked or not. If they say it didn't, you
can try again.

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by control

>
>I'll do you a swap babe...my prostate and gonads for your ovaries and
>uterus...(and I'll throw in a free set of steak knives!!! )
<

My goodness--we've found a perfect use for Janice Lester transfer device.
No! For that machine in "The Procrustean Petard." Now we just have to get
someone to invent it.

LL&P
J S C

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <3893375602.961671082@hashbrown>,

laura jacquez valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask "Gamin Davis?" about what
T'Rhys
> is quoting.

Assuming I'm not still in your killfile, in which case you won't
see this, I will refer you to the response I just posted to kira-nerys
about this. I was merely expressing my surprise that a slash fan would
read my work and bother to comment. I haven't had that experience very
often, so from *my* POV, it's still startling when it happens.

> At any rate, the first Trekfic I posted was non-slash, and I'm pretty
much

> rampantly bifictional in my reading, although I don't like most het
> (probably because I don't have good enough filters in place to
eliminate
> the bad stuff).

I think quite a few slash writers did gen or het at some time in
their fan-fic writing careers. I know there's been a lot of crossover
between the two in zine fic.
Gamin

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Before you buy.

[Mark Stanley]

control Function wrote:
>
> Is this what I think it sounds like??? Mark?
>

Yes it is. :0)

> I'll do you a swap babe...my prostate and gonads for your ovaries and
> uterus...(and I'll throw in a free set of steak knives!!! )
>

Yay! :0) Do you happen to have any extraneous height that you could give
me too? I wouldn't mind being about 6 inches taller... <g>

Mark

> >
> >No, a prostate isn't added in FTM surgery. We have to use our
> >imaginations. :0)
> >
> >Mark
> >--

--

If you are having a debate with someone and they say 'Let's agree to
disagree..' Just say: 'No, let's not.' -- Gorilla of Destiny
~~~
mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca

ICQ# 51278836

http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <042601bfdc62$36dfb700$8fc2c6c3@a010029036>,
"kira-nerys" <kar...@kardasi.com> wrote:
> Being out here means that our stories might be commented. Having it
out
> there on a public newsgroup may result in someone commenting on it
very
> negatively or very positively without you ever finding out. That's
life on
> a NG I suppose.

I suppose. Except that I had understood that comments that might
be interpreted negatively were supposed to be E-mailed. That's been
stated on both NGs several times, as well as in the FAQs.

> I can relate to some of it, Gamin, because I too like to concentrate
on
> Spock's human half because it is often forgotten IMO. And I'm happy
for you
> that ppl respond positively to your portrayal. Good for you. IDIC?

Of course.

> You twist my words. Your comment more or less states that it's weird
of me
> to read your story because it isn't slash because I prefer slash....
I've
> loved reading K, S stories that AREN'T slash. I prefer slash though.
It
> doesn't have to be either/or.

I was only saying that it still seems weird *to me* that anybody
who's mainly a slash fan would bother reading any of my stories--I'm so
used to gen-only fans reading them that when I get *any* feedback from
a slash fan it still surprises me. I know some slash fans also read
K&S friendship stories, but I also know they're in the minority.

> Once more for clarification. If slash fans have been known to like
your
> stories. Great. More power to you. BUT the reason I didn't exactly
fall
> head over heels with your story wasn't the fact that it wasn't slash -
> since I saw slash in it, you're kind of missing the point. You don't
feel
> that it's slash - okay, the slashy bits are in essence in the eyes of
the
> reader so to speak. What I didn't like was your characterization of
Spock.
> Period. My opinion. Others like your Spock. Wonderful.

Ah, okay.

> Indeed. I've never claimed to be perfect. And what's perfect for me
would
> obviously not be for you and vice versa.

Right...

> > As a matter of fact, there *has* been at least one person to
> > express such sentiments to me.
> Why did I know you would assure me of that?

I'd respond to this except now I can't remember what I was
referring to. People reading slash into my stories? Yes, that's
happened before, but very infrequently. This is the first time I've
gotten into a major disagreement with a lot of people about it.

> Well, to me this is kind of a natural evolution in a K/S. When K/S
becomes
> sexually involved, the only one seeing Spock lose control is the one
he
> loves. That's okay. He can let his emotions loose. Which to me is a
pretty
> logical way to explain why Spock acts Vulcan at all other times,
except
> when he has sex with the one he loves.

Okay, well, the same is true of Spock expressing emotions in my
stories--the only person he really does it in front of is Kirk. Yes, I
do talk about his emotions in my narrative at other times, but that's
pretty unavoidable if one's purpose is to explore Spock's psyche and
what he's feeling, and I don't confine that to when he's alone with
Kirk. But that's not the same as *him showing* his emotions.

> And this above is what you say - your perception. I've got a
different one
> and I think we just won't ever see eye to eye on this. In your eyes
this is
> lewd, and seeing K/S as a couple romantically/sexually involved is
wrong.
> Why do I discuss it with you? - we're never going to agree. So, let's
agree
> to disagree.

I think we better.

> Yeah. Well that was one more time. I'd forgotten that. It still
doesn't
> convince me that it's more probable that Spock would cry than have
sex. I
> think the odds are about 50/50

Hmm. We clearly see Spock's sexual capacity differently, as well
as what he would and wouldn't do in that area.

> I can see Spock having friends or lovers. Both works for me.

To me, Spock is (1) a loner and (2) not promiscuous. Not that he
is necessarily the latter in most K/S, but some stories do have him a
little, I don't know, over-involved in sex acts.

> > "Amok Time" is the only one of those I really think we have any
> > evidence for actual sexual arousal on.
> kind of hard to dismiss that one.

:^) I wouldn't dare.

> huh? That was a very convenient way of dismissing clear acts on
screen. In
> every way it was kind of obvious that Spock did have sex with
Sarabeth. He
> did get emotional. He did kiss her. Kissing to me is a very erotic
act. And
> that kiss kinda sizzled. Whether it is "a cheap way to get Spock to
emote"
> isn't the issue. It's canon. Feel free to dismiss canon if you wish.
We all
> do that in one way or another.

All we *canonically* saw him do was recline and kiss her. A kiss
doesn't automatically equal (or lead to) sex. What makes you so sure
it didn't stop there? (As a point of interest, I recently wrote a
story refuting that whole idea, saying that even "reverted", it's
unlikely Spock would have actually had sex with her because McCoy was
watching them the whole time. I suppose you'd find the whole story a
load of garbage, but anyway, I made some attempt to come up with an
alternative.)

> Unfortunately, I still haven't SEEN this episode, only had it retold
to me,
> so I can't argue with you on this one.

Hmm, well, we'll have to see what you think once you've seen it.

> Well, if nothing else went on - such as sex - it was quite obvious
that the
> Romulan commander took it for granted that he could perform sexually,
that
> he was capable of sexual attraction and since she ought to know more
about
> Vulcans than most I think I'd rather believe what went on onscreen
than
> your interpretation of the whole thing. Besides. Onscreen sex. Can you
> point us to *ONE* instance where that has happened in TOS? It wasn't
> something they did very often on TV back then. If we were to assume
there
> is no sex going on between characters because they didn't show it
onscreen,
> the future looks grim. No more little Federation citizens. And no, I
> realize that K/S isn't a good way of producing more little Feds, but
there
> are others who can populate the universe IMO.

Yes, I CAN cite one--"Wink of an Eye". Two--"The Paradise
Syndrome". In the former, Kirk was seen in a bedroom pulling on his
boots while Deela brushed her hair, and *that* is what I expect to see
in TOS at that time to indicate that actual sex took place--not the
actual act, but some physical evidence that it might have just
happened. In the latter episode, Miramanee turned up pregnant and it
was fairly clear that Kirk was the father, so...anyway, *that* is the
type of on-screen thing I look for, and the episodes you mention didn't
have that.
Oh, yes, I know the Romulan Commander was sexually attracted to
Spock--or was she just using him? Hard to say. And how current is her
information on Vulcans? She might be laboring under the delusion that
she could "do" something to alter the pon farr cycle--could be those
kind of myths abound among Romulans.

> Nothing says there wasn't sex going on either. I guess that too is up
to
> the viewer to make up their mind about. But in your world sex is kinda
> non-existent, right? Why *are* you on a newsgroup that is centered

Because I just don't care to read or write about it. I have,
however, written a story where a character got pregnant and one when
one was raped, so to say it's "non-existant" really is an exaggeration.

around
> EROTICA? I'm not trying to say "Leave, Gamin because you don't fit
in" I'm
> genuinely curious. It really surprises me that you - with your
attitude
> toward sex in general (or at least the way I've interpreted your
comments)
> are on Alt. Startrek Creative EROTICA.

Because sometimes there are *discussions* going on that I want to
read or get into.

> Well, yes, I do put a sexual spin to a lot of scenes, but I also do
put a
> romantic love spin to a lot of scenes.

Trouble is, in slash at least, I've never seen the romance without
the sex at least getting into the early stages.

> And I'm sorry ... I don't understand why this bugs you so much. Why
does it
> drive you up a wall at the idea of Spock and Kirk being lovers? I
don't
> understand it and that's probably why I keep this discussion going
although
> I am beginnning to see how futile it is. Because I'm not saying that
> stories that have K/S being friends and just friends are wrong.
They're
> fine with me and some of them are *really, really* good.

Because I don't see Kirk and Spock as gay or even likely to
*become* gay. If they did, sure, they'd be most likely to pair off
with each other, but...the way Kirk gets involved with so many women, I
just can't see it. I do not believe the characters are or were ever
intended to be gay, and that's why it "drives me up a wall". It
doesn't matter to me what other people think--if they see Kirk and
Spock as being in a m/m relationship, if that works for them, fine.
I'm okay with that. I just don't respond well to the idea of somebody
thinking I'm writing them that way in *my* stories.

> I don't - not really. I think it's an inherent thing in me.
Curiousity,
> interest.

Hmm, okay.

> Yeah, I think the weird thing is that we both see a lot of the same
things
> in the K/S relationship, apart from the sexuality of it.

That's why I've been known to read *some* slash, if it's not too
explicit--I like the friendship aspects of it

> What I wonder is why you can't accept the idea of K/S as a couple? I
mean,
> it's not like you have to be either a slash fan or not a slash fan.
You can
> be both. I am. I read S/f, Spock/Uhura, Spock/Chapel or stories where
there
> isn't a sexual relationship at all. The K/S universe isn't exclusive
to me.
> I like K/S, but I can enjoy other stories too. But you seem intent on
that
> there is no such thing going on between Kirk and Spock and I wonder
why you
> protest so vehemently. Why is the idea of homosexual love between
them so
> wrong for you. You told me you had a relative who was gay and enjoyed
their
> company.
> Is it the idea of explicit sexual love between two men that bother
you,
> that you don't want to read about?

No, no, no...see above. What I object to is the idea of two
CHARACTERS who I see NO evidence of being gay being portrayed that
way. As far as same-sex relationships in RL, it's not my thing, but I
really can't feel anything more negative than compassion toward them
after seeing the anti-gay conservative backlash over recent years,
which has really gotten out of hand. Shall I tell you what I told my
brother-in-law when he finally "came out"?
I was glad he was in a monogamous relationship. I already knew
him before, and it didn't make any difference in my feelings, my liking
or my respect for him (which is more than I can say for certain members
of his family at the time). He had written my husband a letter, but my
husband is not a writer and I thought it should be responded to so I
sent him a letter back. Neither he nor his SO fit any of the gay
stereotypes--if you met them on the street, there's nothing that would
make you say right off "these guys are gay". His SO is a very nice guy
and he (my brother-in-law) hasn't changed personality or suddenly
become an Evil Minion of Hell, so no, I don't pre-judge real people as
to whether or not they're gay, nor do I care. Good enough? I just
don't believe *Kirk and Spock* could possibly be gay.

> To me, love is love, whether it's between a man and a woman or two
men or
> two women. There's nothing lewd in that.

Some of us were raised to feel otherwise, but "lewd", too, is in
the eye of the beholder.

> How do you feel about reading het-smut?? Do you think that's *lewd* as
> well.
> I think that's what I'm hung up on - the word lewd. Live's fun being
> sexually open, but lewd has such a negative ring to it and doesn't
have
> much to do with love.

Would it have offended you less if I'd picked some other word? I
had a feeling whatever I said would be interpreted the same way, so I
didn't bother to change the word before I sent the message. And no, I
don't read het stories with sex scenes in them either, unless they're
not very explicit. I just think there are other things to write and
read about. (I must note that sex doesn't necessarily have anything
to do with love, either--ref. rape, etc.)
Gamin

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <2000062215071...@c000.sfo.cp.net>,

hafital <haf...@worldspy.net> wrote:
> I don't know if Gamin was meaning to imply that slash fans don't like
non-slash, or just making a statement that wasn't clear. *shrug* And I
really don't care. I like what I like, I write what I write.

See my previous responses on this--I was just commenting on *my
personal* experience with feedback, which has been to date almost
exclusively from het/gen fans, thus my surprise at getting feedback
from slash fans.

[Dina Lerret]

At 06/23/2000 05:46 PM +0000, Mark Stanley wrote:

>Yay! :0) Do you happen to have any extraneous height that you could give
>me too? I wouldn't mind being about 6 inches taller... <g>

I'd give you some of my height. <g> I want to be shorter as in well under
5'8". My mother would constantly berate how I was too tall... Parents.
<chuckle>

Dina

--
"Don't worry. Sooner or later, Beecher will be mine." - Keller

Phrases like that warm this B/K slashsmuttess' heart.

[Kaki]

----------
From:
ascem-use...@trekfiction.com[SMTP:ascem-usenet-relay1@trekfictio
n.com]

Yes, I CAN cite one--"Wink of an Eye". Two--"The Paradise
Syndrome". In the former, Kirk was seen in a bedroom pulling on his
boots while Deela brushed her hair, and *that* is what I expect to see
in TOS at that time to indicate that actual sex took place--not the
actual act, but some physical evidence that it might have just
happened.

But all you see is hair brushing and boots. I personally think Kirk
introduced her to foot massages. Well, not really, but I can argue it.
Why not, he was trying to trip her senses; could be done with mutual foot
massages. After all Scotty didn't use sex (as far as we saw).

In the latter episode, Miramanee turned up pregnant and it
was fairly clear that Kirk was the father, so...anyway, *that* is the
type of on-screen thing I look for, and the episodes you mention didn't
have that.

Even there, what if she was already pregnant when he arrived. I doubt it,
but she sure caught quickly.

Kaki

[Kaki]

----------
From: Mark Stanley[SMTP:mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca]
Reply To: ASC...@egroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:46 PM

To: ASC...@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

Yay! :0) Do you happen to have any extraneous height that you could give
me too? I wouldn't mind being about 6 inches taller... <g>

Mark

Hey, if you can work it out, I can donate height! 6 inches sounds good.

[datalaur]

> From: gamin_davis@m...

>I suppose. Except that I had understood that comments that might
> be interpreted negatively were supposed to be E-mailed. That's been
> stated on both NGs several times, as well as in the FAQs.

I must strongly disagree! May I suggest you read the FAQ at
http://www.egroups.com/files/ASCEML/faq.txt, or here are two relevant
excerpts:

"If you have something to say about a story, please say it. It
doesn't matter if you'd prefer to send it privately to the author or
would rather reply to the list (as most of us do). Be sensible;
feedback like "This story sucked!" is no more helpful than
"Wow, I loved it!" Plain insults are unconstructive, too. "

"Public discussion of these stories occurs a lot, and more often than
not the authors themselves are heavily involved. Try to exercise
courtesy if you want to argue a point ... Critical acclaim and attack
are welcomed on this list, but be prepared to back up your opinions
and discuss them as the rest of us do."

The idea that all comments that "might be" interpreted negatively
must go to private email is simply wrong. This is NOT the policy of
the newsgroup. Nor is it common public sentiment - though some few
would try to portray it so. I suggest the thread "When did ASCEM
policy on public feedback change?" at message 26031 and in particular
Greywolf's response at message 29095. I quote from our most eminent
Wolfmaster:

>Rank personal attacks are definitely out of line. But god damn it,
this is a group who write and read stories, how the fuck can we have
any kind of meaningful discourse if only praise is permitted? I never
heard such a monstrous crock of shit in all my life. *FUCK* that.>

Negative feedback IS appropriate on this newsgroup. Of course there
is a courtous way to critique, and THAT is the expectation of the
group. Again, the problem comes in with differing interpretations of
what a 'significantly negative' critique looks like - that is where
the considerate critic should think about going the private email
route. Of course, if the author has said "be gentle" or "no
negatives" or "all negatives via email", the courtous critic will
comply.

Sorry folks for the rant, but this is the one topic guaranteed to get
me right back up on the soapbox. "Very negative" is NOT "might be
negative" and is a key distinction that seems to be continually
missed.

Like the Wolf said: "The day this NG turns permanently into namby-
pamby Barney-let's-always-be sweet-and-cloying land is the day I
unsub and get the fuck out of here."

laur

[Kiri...@aol.com]

> My goodness--we've found a perfect use for Janice Lester transfer
device.
> No! For that machine in "The Procrustean Petard." Now we just
have to get
> someone to invent it.
>
> LL&P
> J S C

Now, *that* could have it's...uh...uses *outside* medical treatment.
(EEG)

Kiri

[kira-nerys]

----- Original Message -----
From: <ascem-use...@trekfiction.com>
To: <asc...@egroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 1:14 AM
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

> From: gamin...@my-deja.com
>
> In article <3893375602.961671082@hashbrown>,
> laura jacquez valentine <jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> > I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask "Gamin Davis?" about what
> T'Rhys
> > is quoting.
>
> Assuming I'm not still in your killfile, in which case you won't
> see this, I will refer you to the response I just posted to kira-nerys
> about this. I was merely expressing my surprise that a slash fan would
> read my work and bother to comment. I haven't had that experience very
> often, so from *my* POV, it's still startling when it happens.

You're still totally hung up on the fact that just because one is a
slashfan one reads *only* slash. As if slash fans don't read anything else.
Come on!

kira-nerys

[Kiri...@aol.com]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, J S Cavalcante <102763.1453@c...> wrote:
> Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com

> >Now, *that* could have it's...uh...uses *outside* medical
treatment.
> (EEG)
>
> Kiri
> <
>

> Hehe--true. I believe in the story, the aliens who invented the
machinery
> used it as entertainment.
>
> LL&P
> J S Cavalcante

That was the impression I got. (G) I can see why it might become
addictive. I must admit to being extremely curious what it feels
like for a man.

If there was a way that I *knew* for 100% positive I could get back,
I'd jump at the chance to find out.

Kiri

[Dina Lerret]

At 06/24/2000 03:26 AM +0000, datalaur wrote:

>Like the Wolf said: "The day this NG turns permanently into namby-
>pamby Barney-let's-always-be sweet-and-cloying land is the day I
>unsub and get the fuck out of here."

Shit, hmm. I really need to watch my language. God, talk about sterner
stuff. For some, this is probably a positive aspect. After having a
supervisor encourage me to be meaner, more forceful, speak LOUDER because
it's a dog eat dog world. Then wake up one day to realize you don't
recognize who you are was chilling. I think I'd rather be one of those
'sweet' folks. Hopefully, not sickeningly sweet. <g> To each their
own. Diversity is what makes this group.

Dina

--
Hm, always an interesting visual of when the guys you slash have
worn women's clothes and makeup in canon. (Re: Beecher and Keller)

[Gilda Felt]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, Kiristeen@a... wrote:
> --- In ASC...@egroups.com, J S Cavalcante <102763.1453@c...> wrote:
> > Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com
> > >Now, *that* could have it's...uh...uses *outside* medical
> treatment.
> > (EEG)
> >
> > Kiri
> > <
> >
> > Hehe--true. I believe in the story, the aliens who invented the
> machinery
> > used it as entertainment.
> >
> > LL&P
> > J S Cavalcante
>
> That was the impression I got. (G) I can see why it might become
> addictive. I must admit to being extremely curious what it feels
> like for a man.
>
> If there was a way that I *knew* for 100% positive I could get
back,
> I'd jump at the chance to find out.
>
>
> Kiri

I would too. Oddly enough, I never even thought about it until I
started reading K/S.

Gilda

[control Function]

To Quote Leon:
" I've never seen a turtle"...."but I know what you mean"

ie : I dunno who you mean but I get your drift....

to be more specific, I bloody well wish...
not that anyone on this group particularly wishes to hear me winge about the
inadequacy of gender surgery...

but dam I'd like to get my periods...good or bad!!! <hee hee hee>
p'raps that could make a good story...hmmmm have to think bout that one...

oh and don't stop you say JS ? JS? that sounds familiar now I'm on a
roll...<sebastian...that is>
you did say don't stop didn't you?
kay'

wet lips abound
tastes and sensuous sensitivity around
features that which
reflect thy beauty and wit

taste and hear the sound of words
my longing dear and darling
"smother thee"
I tremble incoherent but
to thy desire and satisfaction thus
I kiss you into raputurous unconsciousness
and utter words
"forever goddess..."

the ever appreciative messenger
controlFunction

>From: J S Cavalcante <10276...@compuserve.com>
>Reply-To: ASC...@egroups.com
>To: "INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com" <ASC...@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:31:38 -0400
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Mailing-List: list ASC...@egroups.com; contact ASCEML...@egroups.com
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>

>Message text written by control
> >

> >I'll do you a swap babe...my prostate and gonads for your ovaries and
> >uterus...(and I'll throw in a free set of steak knives!!! )
><
>

>My goodness--we've found a perfect use for Janice Lester transfer device.
>No! For that machine in "The Procrustean Petard." Now we just have to get
>someone to invent it.
>
>LL&P
>J S C

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[Jenn]

>>I believe they said in the story that the device was used exclusively on
>>outworlders. In other words, it was a rather sadistic "entertainment."
>>
>>I'm with you--I would like to try it, knowing that I could get back. I
>>wonder what we'd all find out about how the other half are treated. You
>>remember that experiment someone did in the 60s (I think--or 70s?)--he
>>wrote the book *Black Like Me* after it. A Caucasian guy took some drug
>>that made him dark skinned and he passed as a black man . . .
>>and found out
>>firsthand how differently he was treated as a result.
>>
>>LL&P
>>J S Cavalcante

My US History teacher showed the movie in class--it was highly disturbing,
not only the behavior of others toward him, but his own very rapid growth
of paranoia. It really, really amazed me, the difference between how
people had treated him as white and how they treated him as black. I still
remember that.

jenn

[J S Cavalcante]

I believe they said in the story that the device was used exclusively on
outworlders. In other words, it was a rather sadistic "entertainment."

I'm with you--I would like to try it, knowing that I could get back. I
wonder what we'd all find out about how the other half are treated. You
remember that experiment someone did in the 60s (I think--or 70s?)--he
wrote the book *Black Like Me* after it. A Caucasian guy took some drug
that made him dark skinned and he passed as a black man . . . and found out
firsthand how differently he was treated as a result.

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

************************************************88

Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com

>> Hehe--true. I believe in the story, the aliens who invented the
machinery
> used it as entertainment.
>
> LL&P
> J S Cavalcante

That was the impression I got. (G) I can see why it might become
addictive. I must admit to being extremely curious what it feels
like for a man.

If there was a way that I *knew* for 100% positive I could get back,
I'd jump at the chance to find out.

Kiri<

[ka...@ipass.net]

Nope, I'm happy being female even if I'd like too try
male for a few hours sometime. I just have height to
spare. I'd love to be 5'6" or 5'7", so I figured I'd
give Mark 6" and get to be close to normal height (ave
woman in US is 5' 3.5")

:)

Kaki

Quoting control Function <control...@hotmail.com>:

> Jesus...not another transgendered person...and I
thought I was the only one
>
> one here....
>
> (or am I just being hopeful??? )
>
>
> control
> reasonably, (but quite prepared to be not)surprised

>
>
>
> >From: Kaki <ka...@ipass.net>
> >
> >----------
> >From: Mark Stanley
[SMTP:mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca]
> >Reply To: ASC...@egroups.com
> >Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:46 PM

> >To: ASC...@egroups.com

> >Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash
> >
> >

> >Yay! :0) Do you happen to have any extraneous height
that you could give
> >me too? I wouldn't mind being about 6 inches
taller... <g>
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >Hey, if you can work it out, I can donate height! 6
inches sounds good.
> >
> >Kaki
> >

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[SAMK]

Kiri...@aol.com wrote:

> If there was a way that I *knew* for 100% positive I could get back,
> I'd jump at the chance to find out.
>
> Kiri

Varley, _Steel Beach_ Oh, but I want a world where I can get a
fully functional body mod as quick as I can a new hair style...

SAMK
sa...@inil.com

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com

>Now, *that* could have it's...uh...uses *outside* medical treatment.
(EEG)

Kiri
<

Hehe--true. I believe in the story, the aliens who invented the machinery
used it as entertainment.

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

[control Function]

Has anyone seen the Documentary "Blue Eyed"?

This is also eye opening, disturbing stuff...amazingly tough...
Perhaps not as "real life" as the other (which I haven't seen and would love
to) but a valid social experiment nonetheless

>From: "Jenn" <je...@igg-tx.net>
>Reply-To: ASC...@egroups.com
>To: <ASC...@egroups.com>

>Subject: RE: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash
>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:38:20 -0500
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>

> >>I believe they said in the story that the device was used exclusively on
> >>outworlders. In other words, it was a rather sadistic "entertainment."
> >>
> >>I'm with you--I would like to try it, knowing that I could get back. I
> >>wonder what we'd all find out about how the other half are treated. You
> >>remember that experiment someone did in the 60s (I think--or 70s?)--he
> >>wrote the book *Black Like Me* after it. A Caucasian guy took some drug
> >>that made him dark skinned and he passed as a black man . . .
> >>and found out
> >>firsthand how differently he was treated as a result.
> >>
> >>LL&P
> >>J S Cavalcante
>

>My US History teacher showed the movie in class--it was highly disturbing,
>not only the behavior of others toward him, but his own very rapid growth
>of paranoia. It really, really amazed me, the difference between how
>people had treated him as white and how they treated him as black. I still
>remember that.
>
>jenn
>

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[Jenn]

>>Has anyone seen the Documentary "Blue Eyed"?
>>
>>This is also eye opening, disturbing stuff...amazingly tough...
>>Perhaps not as "real life" as the other (which I haven't seen
>>and would love
>>to) but a valid social experiment nonetheless
>>

What was the experiment exactly? Just for my own curiosity--unless its
obvious by the title and I'm looking for some subtlety.

jenn (interested)

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <024b01bfdd10$df41a620$0bc3c6c3@a010029036>,
"kira-nerys" <kar...@kardasi.com> wrote:
> I didn't think that was necessary since you are a very vocal member
of this
> mailinglist/ newsgroup. I just assumed that you would get to read it
> anyway.

(You know what they say about "assuming", right? <small grin>) Not
until recently. I hadn't been able to post at all to ASCEM from my
newsreader, plus my server is constantly dropping off messages. If I
hadn't recently set up a Deja account, I might never have seen it at
all. I now have a new version of my newsreader that apparently *does*
allow me to post to this NG but *not* see the messages I posted.
(Sigh.) So my "vocalness" is of very recent origin--say within the
past couple of months.

> I didn't feel that my message to you was particularly negative
actually, or
> that I was *stomping* you. I was simply using your story as an
example of K
> & S that IMHO bordered on K/S. And then I asked ppl to state where
their
> lines were drawn. Since you said that you didn't mind that ppl read
K/S
> into your stuff, I don't see what the problem is.

Um, it wasn't--that was directed to Greywolf, not you.
The "stomping" was his word; I was just quoting him. No, it wasn't a
really *deeply* negative post. I just would have liked some warning.
Well, it used to bother me more than it does now, although then I had
no real outlet to express my feelings in response. Which was probably
a good thing, at least for everybody else.
Gamin

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <200006230251_...@compuserve.com>,
J S Cavalcante <10276...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> It should be irrelevant, but may not be for some. (I am speaking in
> general terms, not about you or anyone in particular.) It helps to

Well, I figured that, but as I am largely responsible for this
entire brouhaha, I thought I should respond.

work
> with professional editors. They do not have time for "artistic
> temperament" in any but their most celebrated authors, and I'm sure
that in
> general the most celebrated ones actually have the most professional
> attitudes. Being known as a freelancer who can work well with an
editor is
> an important aspect of landing an assignment.

Well, I have met a few professional authors in my time, as well as
read interviews of them and talked to some of them online, and they are
not *always* the mature professionals they're assumed to be. Yes, you
should have overcome the artistic temperament stage by the time you
turn pro, but I question how many of them really abandon it for good.
To date, I've been able to balance my temperamental nature with working
with editors, so I don't think *that* would be a problem if I decided
to turn pro.

> Well, what I was trying to suggest to . . . kira-nerys, was it? . . .

Yes...

was
> that having a thicker skin might be beneficial to an author. I
consider
> that part of the professional attitude, but maybe your mileage
varies?

Not at all. But it's not an overnight process--I am much thicker
skinned than I used to be, but at times of RL stress (which this is),
I'm not thick-skinned *enough*. And I also really think that the
artistic temperament is not really something that writers, artists or
any other creative types ever really free themselves of. They may
*control* it enough to deal with professional editors, etc., but I've
*seen* it come out at other times. I've heard it said that the better
you are at your craft, the harder it is to keep a handle on it,
although maybe that's a stereotype.

> Perhaps I do not understand what you meant to convey. You seemed to
be
> saying that you have a professional attitude, but you have not
developed a
> thick skin about "criticism" yet, at least in the initial stages of
> editing. If that's what you meant, what I want to ask is . . . what
is
> your point? That even professionals are highly sensitive to
criticism of
> their work? I'm saying that if they are, they ought to get over it.
Not
> because it's the "right" thing to do, but because they will suffer
less.

Yes, that was my point--that even pros can react that way. And
yes, they should "get over it", but I'm not sure how many of them
really do. Case in point: Harlan Ellison, professional SF author with
credentials up to his...er...neck who wrote "City on the Edge of
Forever", the original version of which I've read--30+ years after GR
supposedly "ruined" his precious story, he is still so bitter that the
first thing he does after GR dies is write a horrible, scathing article
for STARLOG magazine in which he basically says "I'm glad Roddenberry
is dead" and all but cusses him out!
Then more recently, he gets on the Sci-Fi Channel and still
manages to get his digs in on the man, although I got the definite
feeling that he was edited/muzzled to prevent some of his more ascerbic
comments from getting on the air. What accounts for that if not
artistic temperament? Even *I* am mature enough not to hold a grudge
against someone for 30 years for making changes--*necessary* changes, I
may add--to my story. What Ellison originally wrote was a futuristic
cop show. That may be the way *he* sees ST (and I know from a TV
interview he did once that it is), but I don't think a lot of its
*fans* feel that way. It had to be edited. I would have liked one or
two things to stay in, but having read the original, I mostly agree
with GR's changes. (This has always been a sore point for me, so
pardon me for getting worked up.)

> To grow a thicker skin means they actually have higher self-esteem--
so high
> that they *don't* freak out when someone criticizes a story. I'm not
> talking about ignoring people's comments: that doesn't proceed out of
> self-esteem but arrogance, false self-esteem. I mean a real
understanding
> that no one can knock you (the general "you") off your track, so you
can
> accept any comments whatsoever and know that they cannot hurt you.
They're
> not even about *you,* but about the story; they're not criticizing
your
> vision or your individuality, but only the method of execution of your
> ideas . . . and you can have sufficient distance between who you
really are
> and your work that you never take it personally. (If someone
criticizes
> *you*--they are out of line.) You can keep your emotions out of the
> discussion and take a dispassionate look at people's comments and see
if
> there's anything in them that you can use. That's why I'm saying it
might
> be beneficial; because you then get all the goodies and none of the
pain.

As I have been trying to emphasize lately, I *do* take
a "dispassionate look" at people's comments, *especially* negative ones
if they seem constructive, and I frequently wind up using them, even if
not on the story they were critiquing. But *initially*--right now, I'm
sorry, but I usually just can't help reacting defensively. I may or
may not take it personally, depending on the nature of the comment, but
the fact that I do does *not* mean I don't give it any consideration
when I've had a chance to think about it for a while.

> It sounds as though you work well with editors. <g> Well then, I am
a bit
> perplexed as to what point you are making. Are you also one who
says "my
> stories are my babies"? It was that comment that I was specifically
> addressing in my post to kira-nerys.

Yes, as should be apparent from my comments above, I do still tend
to think that way. Doesn't mean I'm not open to making changes,
especially in stories like those I've recently posted, which haven't
gone to my editor yet. The key thing, of course, is if I can see that
it *needs* changing, and my POV on that may not be the same as those
commenting. But any changes I decide to make don't happen right away
because I don't *decide* on them right away. I differentiate between
the process of receiving the comments and the process of deciding what
to do with them, which are two separate things. That's why I say, yes,
IMO, I do have a professional attitude regarding writing (my own or
anybody else's with the patience to read through my comments on their
stories). If I didn't, there'd be no point in anybody commenting at
all because I'd just blow them off, regardless of what they said or how
they were phrased.

[datalaur]

>That even professionals are highly sensitive to
> criticism of their work? I'm saying that if they are, they ought
to get over it. Not because it's the "right" thing to do, but
because they will suffer less.

> From: gamin_davis@m...
> Yes, that was my point--that even pros can react that way. And
> yes, they should "get over it", but I'm not sure how many of them
> really do. Case in point: Harlan Ellison, professional SF author
with credentials up to his...er...neck who wrote "City on the Edge of
> Forever", the original version of which I've read--30+ years after
GR supposedly "ruined" his precious story, he is still so bitter

<snip> What accounts for that if not artistic temperament?

Much as I love Ellison, I'd have to say it's just temperament and
arrogance. But that's part of why Ellison fans love him. ;-) But I
do agree with you, having read Ellison's rants and the original
screenplay, GR mostly did the right thing in making the changes.

On the topic of professional criticism and Ellison and author's self
esteem, Iit made me think of something I'd read recently. It's a
quote from Ellison in a book he edited, Again Dangerous Visions.
Here's an excerpt from the preface to an Evelyn Lief story, where he
was talking about an incident in a six-week writing workshop where he
was teaching a one-week segment and was reviewing an assignment:

"I selected one of the bad batch and decided to use it as a hideous
example to the other students. ...It took me the better part of an
hour to tear that little 1000-word short story to shreds. To flay
it, to masticate it, to denounce its author in the vilest possible
terms. 'This piece of shit isn't fit to line the bottom of a bird
cage. Miss Lief, you aren't a writer, you're a ghoul... This
wretched abomination has as much charm and grace and symmetry as a
thalidomide baby. As a writer I'm offended, as an editor I'm
repelled, as a human being I'm nauseated. This is a grotesquerie
unsullied by beauty in any form whatsoever. It is unstructured,
illogical, moronic, ungrammatical,despicable in the extreme. Rather
than simply tearing it to shreds and stomping on it--' <which he
proceeded to do> '--I should stuff it up whatever available orifice
in your body I might find, including the anal one from which it
clearly emerged. You are a talentless creature, an affront to anyone
seriously considering writing a craft, a chacma baboon in human
guise. If you ever *dare* to submit something as noxious as this
again, I will beat the crap out of you. Is that clear? Stop crying
and answer me! Is that clear? Is that perfectly, crystal clear?'

"Evelyn went to her room and with fury and ferocity scrawled a note
that said something like FUCK YOU HARLAN ELLISON. YOU DON'T KNOW SO
GODDAMN MUCH! and put it over her typewriter and started writing."

He wound up buying the story she wrote that night, "Bed Sheets Are
White" for the book.

Anyway, I thought the shock tactics Ellison chose were interesting,
though I'd sure hate to be on the receiving end. Guess he figures
any 'real' writer will respond as Lief did. Kind of a risky tactic
but then again he goes on to assert that more than half of the
students of this program went on to sell stories/make a living at
writing. There are many programs that operate on the principle
of 'break down the person' then rebuild them, something like Marine
boot camp being an obvious example. Maybe there's something to
it. ::shudder:: Like I said before, sure would hate to be on the
receiving end.

Not trying to suggest this model of criticism for ASCEM -- far from
it!!! Feedback needn't be gutless/namby-pamby OR brutal. We can
have the happy medium of honest and constructive critique framed in a
friendly tone.

laur

[Kiri...@aol.com]

<<<<. No, it wasn't a
really *deeply* negative post. I just would have liked some warning.
Well, it used to bother me more than it does now, although then I had
no real outlet to express my feelings in response. Which was probably
a good thing, at least for everybody else.
Gamin
>>>

I see a sense of humor poking out there Gamin. (BG) Good for you!
hehehe

Kiri

[Jane (jat)]

You know, I have always hated this story. For one thing, it cheats.
He pretends to be supporting Lief, praiing her for picking herself up
and writing a damn terrific story, and all, but meanwhile shows us
that he really must know so goddamn much, mustn't he, if he realized
by sheer psychic ability exatly what Lief needed to prompt her to
write that good story?

Ick, Ellison. Your smugness is really showing. And he enjoys
retelling all those insults *way* too much, like he still thinks
they're the cleverest.

But I also dislike it on a professional level. There's no way that
can be construed as genuinely constructive criticism. The last time
we talked about terrible dismissive teachers, a few people had this
kind of "and the next story I wrote really knocked her socks off"
response, and that's great: you're strong human beings and good
writers, and I thank each of you for making that teaching disaster
into a learning opportunity.

It is nevertheless *damn* unprofessional behavior, and not because
it's negative criticism, but because it is *personal* and negative.

Let me say that again. *It's bad, bad teaching even if it did manage
to work once or twice*.

I'd say the one thing the writer has to learn is that the person who
writes is one entity and the story is a separate one. Ellison must
know that at some level though he periodically does a grand imitation
of not knowing it. The story's over there; I'm over here. You can
like the story, loathe the story, critique the story, ignore the
story; that's not happening to *me* but to the story.

This isn't easy to learn. It certainly isn't any easier when
something that is supposed to be about what's in the story turns
into "you are a ghoul." Anyway, what's in that diatribe that Lief
could use as she tries to write again? A few adjectives like "grace"
and "symmetry" that apparently represent desirable qualities in
fiction, but nothing about what in her story makes it violate those
criteria and nothing about how to make those qualities happen in
fiction.

I *give* negative critiques. I've seen writers use them to get
better. But if I ever said anything like that to anyone, I'd be fit
for nothing but unemployment.

No, God forbid we ever start honing our little insult daggers and
thinking that is feedback. You're right, laur, we're better than
that.

Jane

[Greywolf the Wanderer]

> From: gamin...@my-deja.com
>
> In article <042601bfdc62$36dfb700$8fc2c6c3@a010029036>,
> "kira-nerys" <kar...@kardasi.com> wrote:
> > Being out here means that our stories might be commented. Having it out
> there on a public newsgroup may result in someone commenting on it very
> negatively or very positively without you ever finding out. That's life on
> a NG I suppose.
>
> I suppose. Except that I had understood that comments that might be
> interpreted negatively were supposed to be E-mailed. That's been stated
> on both NGs several times, as well as in the FAQs.

Not *precisely*. What has happened here is that certain individuals have
expressed a desire to never see negative feedback. That is their right,
*applied to their own work only*. Other authors cheerfully welcome any and
all kinds of feedback, as is *their* right.

ASCEM is not a censored NG. Some folks may wish it were, upon occasion, but
it is not. And it never will be, I devoutly hope. But in the past it has
been the general consensus here that if a given author asks to not be sent
negative feedback, that author is to be spared.

Greywolf the lurking FAQ d00d...

[datalaur]

> Message text written by Jane (jat)
> <re: Ellison's diatribe>

> >It is nevertheless *damn* unprofessional behavior, and not because
> >it's negative criticism, but because it is *personal* and negative.

J S Cavalcante <102763.1453@c...> wrote:
> As for Ellison's diatribe, I'm in complete agreement with Jane,
that this was most unprofessional behavior. Disgusting, even. He
was just showing off his formidable verbal abilities at the expense
of someone else's feelings, and he deserves no credit for the fact
that she responded by writing something really good.

I would agree with both of you, but let's not demonize Ellison. It
should be considered in the context of 30 years ago, when the book
was written (it occurred 32 years back). Equating a person's
personal worth with their work was considered a valid practice.
Certainly Ellison's colleagues and bosses knew what he was doing, and
obviously it was not stopped. I daresay it may have even been a
selling point for the workshop. I have several older relatives who
were Marines/Army who would consider Ellison's personal invective to
be mild. I've even had an older boss or two who thought this was the
way to behave, and if a someone cried (or quit), it was just proof
that they weren't tough enough to 'take it' and were mocked. (I
guess on the good side, that having lived through it, it doesn't
bother me a bit to be yelled at.) The oddest thing is that people
who've been through things like this will often defend it (Lief
actually thanks Ellison in her commentary!) and seem very proud of
making it through the trials. I personally believe this is why
things like hazing are hard to get rid of. Thank goodness we have
mostly learned that this sort of nasty personal attack rarely, if
ever, produces good or lasting results.

laur

[J S Cavalcante]

Message text written by Jane (jat)

<re: Ellison's diatribe>

>But I also dislike it on a professional level. There's no way that
can be construed as genuinely constructive criticism. The last time
we talked about terrible dismissive teachers, a few people had this
kind of "and the next story I wrote really knocked her socks off"
response, and that's great: you're strong human beings and good
writers, and I thank each of you for making that teaching disaster
into a learning opportunity.<

I was one of those, but my teacher did not do anything close to what
Ellison did. She never did attack me, she called the *story* trite, etc.,
and to me all she said was "I know you can do better than this." I was
just overly sensitive at the time and had not yet learned, as Jane says,
that:

>I'd say the one thing the writer has to learn is that the person who
>writes is one entity and the story is a separate one. Ellison must
>know that at some level though he periodically does a grand imitation
>of not knowing it. The story's over there; I'm over here. You can
>like the story, loathe the story, critique the story, ignore the
>story; that's not happening to *me* but to the story. <

>It is nevertheless *damn* unprofessional behavior, and not because
>it's negative criticism, but because it is *personal* and negative.

And this is exactly what I was trying to point out in my reaction to the
"my stories are my kids" idea. For the record, when I encouraged writers
to grow a thicker skin, I did not mean to suggest they should sit and
tolerate something like what Ellison did--which was not feedback or
literary criticism at all, but merely an attack. I would have got up and
walked out.

As for Ellison's diatribe, I'm in complete agreement with Jane, that this
was most unprofessional behavior. Disgusting, even. He was just showing
off his formidable verbal abilities at the expense of someone else's
feelings, and he deserves no credit for the fact that she responded by
writing something really good.

>Let me say that again. *It's bad, bad teaching even if it did manage

>to work once or twice*.

So true.

LL&P
J S Cavalcante

[Gordon]

From: "Gordon" <moi...@io.com>

"datalaur " <data...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8j5vk...@eGroups.com...
>
(snip)

> On the topic of professional criticism and Ellison and author's self
> esteem, Iit made me think of something I'd read recently. It's a
> quote from Ellison in a book he edited, Again Dangerous Visions.

(snip)

That's certainly *one* response...
I imagine it would have been wrong for her to have come calmly to their next
meeting and shot him in the face. Horribly, horribly wrong, despite the fact
that no jury in the world would have indicted, much less convicted, her.

I mean, if she had done that... hmmm... he couldn't have done thirty seconds
of
voice work as Sparky the computer in the forth season of Babylon 5, and that
would have... hmmm... okay, maybe it wouldn't have been all that wrong...

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <8j5vk...@eGroups.com>,

"datalaur " <data...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Much as I love Ellison, I'd have to say it's just temperament and
> arrogance. But that's part of why Ellison fans love him. ;-) But I
> do agree with you, having read Ellison's rants and the original
> screenplay, GR mostly did the right thing in making the changes.

Out of respect for any possible fans of his reading this, I will
not go into any detail on my personal opinion of people who would
become fans of someone *because* he's belligerent and treats his fans
like dirt. Let's just say I don't get it.

> On the topic of professional criticism and Ellison and author's self
> esteem, Iit made me think of something I'd read recently. It's a
> quote from Ellison in a book he edited, Again Dangerous Visions.
> Here's an excerpt from the preface to an Evelyn Lief story, where he
> was talking about an incident in a six-week writing workshop where he
> was teaching a one-week segment and was reviewing an assignment:

<snip>
It really bothers me that a professional writer can get away with
that just because a lot of people know who he is. I would NEVER
consider giving feedback like that. That constitutes a personal
attack, if anything ever did--pure destruction. And he is PROUD of
this?! I don't know who Evelyn Lief is, but if she was a beginning
writer/novelist, that merely confirms my belief that Ellison has more
chutzpah than should be allowable in one person. That would thoroughly
intimidate me if someone I'd submitted a story to told me off like
that. If he wound up buying the story, what was the point of making
the author feel like trash? Because people have come to expect stuff
like that from Ellison, they put up with it. Makes me wonder if any
editor has *ever* told him where to get off.

> Anyway, I thought the shock tactics Ellison chose were interesting,
> though I'd sure hate to be on the receiving end. Guess he figures

It would only be "interesting" if you were a spectator watching
him trash someone else's work, and even then, I would find it very
difficult to just sit and watch. IMO Ellison is truly "a legend in his
own mind"; if his talent matched his ego, he'd win Nobel Prizes for
literature every year of his writing life. (Whoops, I said I wasn't
going to get into my opinion of him any more than I have. Sorry about
that.)

> any 'real' writer will respond as Lief did. Kind of a risky tactic
> but then again he goes on to assert that more than half of the
> students of this program went on to sell stories/make a living at
> writing.

Did I miss something? I thought she went off somewhere and cussed
him out in a note. What's "risky" about that? Sorry, I would have
told him off, if I was ever going to, in person. To me, Ellison is the
best example I could think of of a professional writer who doesn't
behave at all in any way that I would consider "professional". Every
time I read one of his diatribes against ST, I just want to write him
and say "Will you for God's sake GROW UP and GET OVER IT? It was 30
years ago--you act like you never wrote anything after that! It's not
like GR changing your script killed your career!" Of course, I haven't
done that...but if I could ever get his address and convince myself
that he'd even read my letter, it might be another story (I can't be
the only one who's thought of doing that).

There are many programs that operate on the principle
> of 'break down the person' then rebuild them, something like Marine
> boot camp being an obvious example. Maybe there's something to
> it. ::shudder:: Like I said before, sure would hate to be on the
> receiving end.

Maybe, but I do *not* subscribe to that school of thought.
Beginning writers need to be *encouraged* and given *examples* that
could help them improve, not be told they and their work are worthless
and given the impression that anything else they write would be a waste
of time. Nor would I respond favorably to such strong-arm tactics
being used on *me*. The process of learning to write may require
discipline, but it's not boot camp. Yeesh...
Gamin

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <007401bfddb5$86367c40$70c2c6c3@a010029036>,

"kira-nerys" <kar...@kardasi.com> wrote:
> You're still totally hung up on the fact that just because one is a
> slashfan one reads *only* slash. As if slash fans don't read anything
else.
> Come on!

I'm not "hung up" on anything. I was simply responding to someone
else with what I *tried* to explain to you--that I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT
HAD MUCH EXPERIENCE (caps for emphasis, not yelling) with K/S fans
*reading and commenting* on *my* work, which is not slash, and *that's*
why it surprises me. What's so hard to understand about that?

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <8j626...@eGroups.com>,

Kiri...@aol.com wrote:
> I see a sense of humor poking out there Gamin. (BG) Good for you!
> hehehe

<g> It's been sorely tested lately, mainly by RL. But it's still
in there, somewhere...

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <01BFDD6B...@ppp-1-115.dialup.rdu.ipass.net>,
Kaki <ka...@ipass.net> wrote:
> But all you see is hair brushing and boots. I personally think Kirk

Which is more than we get in any of the episodes cited ("This Side
of Paradise", "All Our Yesterdays", "Enterprise Incident") to indicate
that *Spock* might have actually had sex, yet people all over the place
just *assume* he did. That was the point I was making.

> introduced her to foot massages. Well, not really, but I can argue
it.
> Why not, he was trying to trip her senses; could be done with mutual
foot
> massages. After all Scotty didn't use sex (as far as we saw).

I don't know about "tripping her senses" (sorry, I don't know what
that means), but she had already mentioned by that time that she was
looking for someone to mate with and had to do it from outside her
species, so...yeah, it could be foot massages...but then why would she
have been brushing her hair? At least that's more of a physical
suggestion of something like that having happened than we had in any of
the other episodes mentioned.

> Even there, what if she was already pregnant when he arrived. I
doubt it,
> but she sure caught quickly.

It only takes one sex act, and you *can* get pregnant the first
time, contrary to what some teenagers seem to think. Miramanee doesn't
really seem the "user" type--I don't really believe she would have made
Kirk think he was the father if he wasn't. Besides, he was there two
months--if she'd been pregnant before he got there, she would've been
showing *before* she showed Kirk the papoose board. And I inferred
from her earlier talk with Salish that she was a *maiden*--read: virgin-
-before marrying Kirk.

[gamin...@my-deja.com]

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <8j19o...@eGroups.com>,
"datalaur " <data...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I must strongly disagree! May I suggest you read the FAQ at
> http://www.egroups.com/files/ASCEML/faq.txt, or here are two relevant
> excerpts:

So sue me for not having an infallible memory of the FAQs. I DO
know I saw it posted, whether it was from a FAQ or not.

> "Public discussion of these stories occurs a lot, and more often than
> not the authors themselves are heavily involved. Try to exercise
> courtesy if you want to argue a point ... Critical acclaim and attack
> are welcomed on this list, but be prepared to back up your opinions
> and discuss them as the rest of us do."

And this bit is rather vague. What is "critical attack?" To me,
that sounds negative, as in PERSONALLY negative. I'm supposed to put
up with *that* on a public NG?

> The idea that all comments that "might be" interpreted negatively
> must go to private email is simply wrong. This is NOT the policy of
> the newsgroup. Nor is it common public sentiment - though some few
> would try to portray it so. I suggest the thread "When did ASCEM
> policy on public feedback change?" at message 26031 and in particular
> Greywolf's response at message 29095. I quote from our most eminent
> Wolfmaster:

Thank you, I already read that thread, and several others on the
same subject. My conclusion was that it was *considered more polite*
to confine *negative* comments to E-mail, and I have been conducting my
own feedback accordingly because to me it sounds more civilized and
respectful of the author's feelings. Something was said at one point
about being careful not to "publicly humiliate the author", and this
made sense to me.

> >Rank personal attacks are definitely out of line. But god damn it,
> this is a group who write and read stories, how the fuck can we have
> any kind of meaningful discourse if only praise is permitted? I never
> heard such a monstrous crock of shit in all my life. *FUCK* that.>

And this is not a personal attack at all, but Greywolf, I know
you're an articulate person from your most recent post to me. Were all
the expletives really necessary? Did they help to get your point across
and make you more right? Just asking...because I don't think you need
them...you seem well able to express yourself without them.

> Negative feedback IS appropriate on this newsgroup. Of course there
> is a courtous way to critique, and THAT is the expectation of the
> group. Again, the problem comes in with differing interpretations of
> what a 'significantly negative' critique looks like - that is where
> the considerate critic should think about going the private email
> route. Of course, if the author has said "be gentle" or "no
> negatives" or "all negatives via email", the courtous critic will
> comply.

And if I'd thought that was necessary after all the recent
discussion, I would have specified that. But I thought it was
generally agreed by the end of those assorted discussions that it would
be preferable to E-mail negative things, or at least *inform* the
author that you're about to publicly post a negative comment,
especially if it's of any length. Thankfully, kira-nerys's comments
were not insulting or vindictive-sounding, but does this mean it's okay
to post such comments publicly if they *are* really negative, and the
author has no say in it, has to be shocked by just *finding it there*
suddenly, can't do anything but specify on the story *beforehand*? If
so, that, IMO, is, as Greywolf so eloquently put it, "a crock". I
don't publicly humiliate other authors whose work I disagree with or
don't enjoy for some reason, and I expect the same courtesy from them.
However, to prevent any of this from happening in the future, I will
alter the introductory info on my stories accordingly from now on.

> Sorry folks for the rant, but this is the one topic guaranteed to get
> me right back up on the soapbox. "Very negative" is NOT "might be
> negative" and is a key distinction that seems to be continually
> missed.

But remember that one person's "might be" *is* another's "very", and
what seems trivial to the commenter might be a sore spot for the
author, so that's why if *I* think there's *any chance* that my story
comments will be interpreted negatively, I send them by E-mail (sorry,
but I've been burned too many times posting what I intended as honest
and balanced comments to the NG). Doesn't apply here to me in this
instance (especially now that I've fully vented myself over the last
several days of this thread), but it could at some point in the future.

>Like the Wolf said: "The day this NG turns permanently into namby-
> pamby Barney-let's-always-be sweet-and-cloying land is the day I
> unsub and get the fuck out of here."

Well, for me, that day came some time ago. I don't dare post
anything remotely negative now in the way of story comments because too
many people have gone berserk in response. I find that while many
people say they want honest comments, that's not the way they respond
when I try to be honest and helpful...so I only post story comments now
when I can be totally positive. I made that decision some time ago for
my own peace of mind. It's not totally honest, but it's less
stressful, so sorry, my mileage has varied.

[Rak...@aol.com]

Greywolf wrote:

>
> > >Rank personal attacks are definitely out of line. But god damn it,
> > this is a group who write and read stories, how the fuck can we have
> > any kind of meaningful discourse if only praise is permitted? I never
> > heard such a monstrous crock of shit in all my life. *FUCK* that.>

And Gamin responded:

> And this is not a personal attack at all, but Greywolf, I know
> you're an articulate person from your most recent post to me. Were all
> the expletives really necessary? Did they help to get your point across
> and make you more right? Just asking...because I don't think you need
> them...you seem well able to express yourself without them.

To paraphrase Greywolf farther down in his original message, the day that
Greywolf starts responding with the kind of diction that Gamin apparently
prefers instead of with his usual panache, well, that's the day *I* unsub.

I'd say the expletives *certainly* helped get his point across. They usually
do, in his case. Any minute now we're gonna start requiring Hemingway to use
subordinate clauses and Henry James to write sentences that are under 100
words.

Ker-rist.

raku, temperature rising

[datalaur]

> "datalaur " <datalaur@y...> wrote:
> > Much as I love Ellison, I'd have to say it's just temperament and
> > arrogance. But that's part of why Ellison fans love him. ;-)

> From: gamin_davis@m...
> Out of respect for any possible fans of his reading this, I will
> not go into any detail on my personal opinion of people who would
> become fans of someone *because* he's belligerent and treats his
fans like dirt. Let's just say I don't get it.

I meant that fans like myself like Ellison because of his outstanding
writing, and also because the guy is such a strong personality, a
person who is just so unshakably self-confident in his writing.
There's something to admire in someone who simply won't be squashed,
no matter what. The fact that sometimes he *should* be squashed, of
course, is the downside of such a strong ego. The other being that
such a person is only tolerable in small doses. I thought I was
pretty clear in saying that I personally do not agree with the
personal attack method at all. Nor will you get any disagreement on
the ST issue - he *should* just get over it.

gamin:

>Because people have come to expect stuff
> like that from Ellison, they put up with it. Makes me wonder if any
> editor has *ever* told him where to get off.

Not successfully! LOL! No, but really, sometimes he's been
convinced when he thought they had valid comments on his works. I
recall reading remarks to this effect, though I can't give specifics
at the moment. I don't believe the man is close-minded as a rule --
he's very strongly opinionated and there IS a difference.

gamin:

> if his talent matched his ego, he'd win Nobel Prizes for
> literature every year of his writing life. (Whoops, I said I wasn't
> going to get into my opinion of him any more than I have. Sorry

LOL! Too true! The man does have a huge ego. But then some of his
stuff IS so darn fabulous...

laur:
> > in hopes that any 'real' writer will respond as Lief did. Kind
of a risky tactic

gamin:

> Did I miss something? I thought she went off somewhere and cussed
> him out in a note. What's "risky" about that? Sorry, I would have

I meant, a risky tactic on his part. Not hers. He could have
crushed Lief, rather than shocking her out of her complacency and
making her angry enough to prove him wrong. And make no mistake, he
clearly indicates that it was a tactic that he chose deliberately:

"I conceive of writing as a holy chore and it is my feeling that
students who come to a workshop... are there for one purpose: to
write. I push them. I chivvy and harass and work them around the
clock. ... by the end of the week's stint as visiting torturer...
they collapse and have their barriers down totally for the soothing
teaching of whomever follows me..."

Today his method seems barbaric and brutal, and so it is. The fact
remains that it *was* a valid tactic 30 years ago. The proof - the
man was hired for years to do exactly this to aspiring writers. And
*they* paid for the privilege of being scourged.

laur:

> There are many programs that operate on the principle
> of 'break down the person' then rebuild them, something like Marine

gamin:

> Maybe, but I do *not* subscribe to that school of thought.
> Beginning writers need to be *encouraged* and given *examples* that
> could help them improve, not be told they and their work are
worthless

Nor do I support it. But of course, we are talking apples and
oranges. These were NOT beginning writers in the sense that we here
on ASCEM are beginning writers. These were people who forked over
considerable cash and six weeks of their lives in hopes of becoming
professional writers -- and I find it hard to believe that any
(except perhaps the first unwary group) didn't have some sense of
what they were walking into. I do seem to recall that people who are
editors have made remarks that in the pro world, criticism is still
extremely harsh. But again, that's not this environment either.

The bottom line is that neither model (Ellison or the professional
editor) is appropriate here. As before, I appeal to all of us to
create the middle ground of honest and constructive feedback, couched
in thoughtful, strong but *respectful* terms that avoid personal
attacks.

laur

[datalaur]

ASCEM FAQ:

> > Critical acclaim and attack are welcomed on this list, but be

prepared to back up your opinions and discuss them..."

Gamin:

> And this bit is rather vague. What is "critical attack?" To me,
> that sounds negative, as in PERSONALLY negative.

Oh, I completely agree. That is why I suggested that the
ASC "Mannerly Art of Disagreement" (or is it Debate, sorry, too lazy
to check) be reviewed/adapted for the ASCEM FAQ.

gamin:

> But I thought it was
> generally agreed by the end of those assorted discussions that it
would be preferable to E-mail negative things, or at least *inform*
the author that you're about to publicly post a negative comment,

> especially if it's of any length. <snip> I

> don't publicly humiliate other authors

What is not agreed upon is "how negative" a comment requires special
handling. Not all negative comments are public humiliation! But if
there *is* doubt in a critic's mind, it is considerate to
consult/warn the author. Where we often run into problems is when
the well-meaning critic doesn't think it's hurtful but the sensitive
author or bystander does.

Unless we shut down all meaningful public discourse about stories or
require author's approval first (which I personally would be against
due to free speech), we will never solve this problem of differing
individual perspectives. Hopefully, we can *reduce* it by putting
out clearer guidelines, like a Mannerly faq.

laur:

> > Sorry folks for the rant, but this is the one topic guaranteed to
get me right back up on the soapbox. "Very negative" is NOT "might be
> > negative" and is a key distinction that seems to be continually
> > missed.

gamin:

> But remember that one person's "might be" *is* another's "very",
and what seems trivial to the commenter might be a sore spot for the
> author, so that's why if *I* think there's *any chance* that my
story comments will be interpreted negatively, I send them by E-mail

This is the point I was trying to make! If we feel we may offend, we
need to be cautious. I try to do the same, with the slight twist
that I try to apply the "reasonable person" standard. Unfortunately,
we haven't yet defined that very well in our FAQ. Is a polite
observation that a writer may benefit from a spellchecker a
humiliating remark? Some may say yes, others would say no. Which is
the ASCEM standard? I would hope "no".

gamin:

>I don't dare post
> anything remotely negative now in the way of story comments because
too many people have gone berserk in response. I find that while many
> people say they want honest comments, that's not the way they
respond when I try to be honest and helpful...so I only post story
comments now when I can be totally positive.

This is precisely why I go on at nauseating length to correct any
statement that would imply *all* negative criticism must go on
email. We as a group have lost your insights! Right now, most
people are too afraid to say anything other than praise. That's
*horrible*, and I say that as a person who has too often stayed
silent when I really did have constructive comments. Because of lack
of courage and honesty (and I include myself in this) I fear that we
are robbing ourselves and each other of precious opportunities to
improve their craft. Even if an author chooses to discard a given
piece of advice, the brain-stretching required to simply consider
another's viewpoint is *still* valuable.

My challenge to all of us is to write kind but honest public
feedback, keeping always in mind that the main goal is to HELP the
author (and not incidentally, other writers).

laur

[Selek]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, ascem-usenet-relay1@t... wrote:
> From: gamin_davis@m...
>
> In article <8j626j+2jgi@e...>,

> Kiristeen@a... wrote:
> > I see a sense of humor poking out there Gamin. (BG) Good for
you!
> > hehehe
>
> <g> It's been sorely tested lately, mainly by RL. But it's
still
> in there, somewhere...
> Gamin

Keep it and cultivate it. It releases endorphines (laughing), so
it's a cheap, legal high.

Selek

[hafital]

--- In ASC...@egroups.com, ascem-usenet-relay1@t... wrote:
> From: gamin_davis@m...

> > >Rank personal attacks are definitely out of line. But god damn
it,
> > this is a group who write and read stories, how the fuck can we
have
> > any kind of meaningful discourse if only praise is permitted? I
never
> > heard such a monstrous crock of shit in all my life. *FUCK* that.>
>
> And this is not a personal attack at all, but Greywolf, I know
> you're an articulate person from your most recent post to me. Were
all the expletives really necessary? Did they help to get your point
across and make you more right? Just asking...because I don't think
you need
> them...you seem well able to express yourself without them.

Wow, that's like asking Spock to stop lifting one eyebrow. I
certainly hope Greywolf continues to shower us with his own unique
use of language, since it's such a wonderful part of his charm.

hafital

[control Function]

OH dear...don't say that...please...not after drunkenly watching RAGE...(the
late night alternative music video type show) which decided to play all
Bowie...all night for about 6 hours...with no interuptions...<makes MTV look
lame>...everything...from Space Oddity, Life on Mars,Boys Keep
Swinging...<LOVE that song so much!!> Underground...and up to the excellent
latest stuff...oh and did I mention...everything else??? I fell in love with
him all over again...even the naff song with Mick Jagger...

Hmmm....it's a toss up...David Bowie or kd...preferably both...but hey...you
can't have everything...

control
drunkenly lusting after all and sundry...

>From: hafital <haf...@worldspy.net>
>Reply-To: ASC...@egroups.com
>To: ASC...@egroups.com

>Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash
>Date: 22 Jun 2000 08:28:00 -0700
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>

>On Thu, 22 June 2000, laura jacquez valentine wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > --On Thursday, June 22, 2000, 8:07 AM -0700 hafital
><haf...@worldspy.net>
> > wrote:r
> >
> > > (My favorite
> > >> mix tape contains both of those men, incidentally, and when I
>mentioned
> > >> that on an Iggy Pop list, I got several "Whoa, you too?" responses.)
> > >
> > > heehee. I love the Bing Crosby/David Bowie duet of the little drummer
> > > boy. And Iggy singing Cole Porter is just amazing.
> >
> > Yeah, isn't that sweet (the Bowie/Crosby)?
>
>Yeah, even though I despise Crosby. He does have one gorgeous voice. And
>Bowie is...well he's Bowie. What more can I say?
>
>hafital, thinking there should be a Spock/Ziggy story written.
>
>
>--
>"God forbid a straight person should acknowledge that there
>are pleasures associated with his anus."
>
>--Phil Hartman
>
>==========================================================
>Visit Hafital's Smutty Star Trek Paradise
>
>http://www.geocities.com/hafital2/
>______________________________________________________________
>Get free Internet service and email at http://www.worldspy.com

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[Kaki]

----------
From:
ascem-use...@trekfiction.com[SMTP:ascem-usenet-relay1@trekfictio
n.com]
Reply To: ASC...@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:18 PM
To: asc...@egroups.com
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Slash versus non-slash

From: gamin...@my-deja.com

In article <01BFDD6B...@ppp-1-115.dialup.rdu.ipass.net>,
Kaki <ka...@ipass.net> wrote:
> But all you see is hair brushing and boots. I personally think Kirk

eek! I was being silly. Very silly. Of course we were meant to think
sex, but it isn;t actually shown.

Which is more than we get in any of the episodes cited ("This Side
of Paradise", "All Our Yesterdays", "Enterprise Incident") to indicate
that *Spock* might have actually had sex, yet people all over the place
just *assume* he did. That was the point I was making.

Personally I think the really hot kisses and the picking Zarabeth up were a
bit stronger and much sexier. But, of course, one can assume he just
dropped her somewhere.

> introduced her to foot massages. Well, not really, but I can argue
it.
> Why not, he was trying to trip her senses; could be done with mutual
foot
> massages. After all Scotty didn't use sex (as far as we saw).

I don't know about "tripping her senses" (sorry, I don't know what
that means), but she had already mentioned by that time that she was
looking for someone to mate with and had to do it from outside her
species, so...yeah, it could be foot massages...but then why would she
have been brushing her hair?

Some of brush our hair because it gets messy just in general in life.

At least that's more of a physical
suggestion of something like that having happened than we had in any of
the other episodes mentioned.

> Even there, what if she was already pregnant when he arrived. I
doubt it,
> but she sure caught quickly.

It only takes one sex act, and you *can* get pregnant the first
time, contrary to what some teenagers seem to think.

Sorry, I am not a teenager and I well know this.

Miramanee doesn't
really seem the "user" type--I don't really believe she would have made
Kirk think he was the father if he wasn't.

I don't think so either, but I have no proof.

Besides, he was there two
months--if she'd been pregnant before he got there, she would've been
showing *before* she showed Kirk the papoose board.

My first pregnancy I had no idea I was pregnant for 3 months, didn't show
for 4.5. Actually, I was wondering how in the heck in two months a
pre-pregnancy test society woman would be so sure. A bit late perhaps, but
not sure.

And I inferred
from her earlier talk with Salish that she was a *maiden*--read: virgin-
-before marrying Kirk.

Maiden can be used for virgin. But then again maiden and virgin can both
be used to simply mean unwed girl.

Don't worry, I'm fine with you taking whatever approach you want to what
you see on screen, Gamin. And for that matter I'm fine with whatever
anyone wants to see (IDIC). I just want to point out that each of us can
see things differently. Heck we can even see things differently each time
we see the show or plot a story. The more the merrier, especially since we
can pick which pairings/ratings/authors/universes we want to read.

Kaki

[Miss Sunbeam]

I myself thought Greywolf was being unnaturally
subdued and demure in that response. But I suspect,
Greywolf being Greywolf, that Gamin's (no doubt
ironic) request will unleash THE REAL GREYWOLF and his
response will leave all of us looking like the results
of one of those filmed atomic-bomb blasts from the
1950's.

yours in cinders,
Sunbeam

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

[rae_trail]

Hmmm....it's a toss up...David Bowie or kd...preferably both...but hey...you
can't have everything...

control
drunkenly lusting after all and sundry...

Hi, control. Just want to share that I lived down the road from kd for a year or so, and from an up-close-personal perspective she is definately the sexier of the two. Although I could stare into Bowie's weird eyes for eons and not get bored, kd is like a little collection of sex toys.

Rae

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jackie Barnes]

>This
>wretched abomination has as much charm and grace and symmetry as a
>thalidomide baby.

What a vile person this Ellison is, saying a thing like that.

>I should stuff it up whatever available orifice
>in your body I might find, including the anal one from which it
>clearly emerged.

Hmm, if he said that to me, I think I would show him my ass...

=/\= =/\= =/\= =/\=
=/\= JayBeee =/\=
=/\= =/\= =/\= =/\=
--
Webmistress of the Vorta Vortex!
http://members.tripod.com/~vortavixen/vortex.htm

[Liz]

At 09:36 PM 6/27/00 -0400, you wrote:

> And I am applauding you, standing on my chair and howling! Fuckity fuck
fuck! the LAST thing we need on this list is Ms. Manners and censorship!
Oh, I'm all for 'polite' but I what the hell is Gamin on about? There
ain't no minors on this list, this is a SMUT list. If I can write cock and
piss and damn and fuck in my stories, why the hell should I censor my posts?

This is the ONLY place where I don't have to censor what I say or write.
That's pretty pathetic, to have only one place in the whole damn universe
where you can be yourself, but I suspect I'm not the only one here who
would say that. Gamin, I was at least trying to see your point of view
until those remarks.

Liz

[Miss Sunbeam]

> And I am applauding you, standing on my chair and
> howling! Fuckity fuck fuck! the LAST thing we need
> on this list is Ms. Manners and censorship! Oh, I'm
> all for 'polite' but I what the hell is Gamin on
> about? There ain't no minors on this list, this is
> a SMUT list. If I can write cock and piss and damn
> and fuck in my stories, why the hell should I censor
> my posts?

right on, sis!
can you believe that post!

sunbeam

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

[rae_trail]

Greywolf wrote:

>
> > >Rank personal attacks are definitely out of line. But god damn it,
> > this is a group who write and read stories, how the fuck can we have
> > any kind of meaningful discourse if only praise is permitted? I never
> > heard such a monstrous crock of shit in all my life. *FUCK* that.>

And Gamin responded:

> And this is not a personal attack at all, but Greywolf, I know
> you're an articulate person from your most recent post to me. Were all
> the expletives really necessary? Did they help to get your point across
> and make you more right? Just asking...because I don't think you need
> them...you seem well able to express yourself without them.

To paraphrase Greywolf farther down in his original message, the day that

Greywolf starts responding with the kind of diction that Gamin apparently
prefers instead of with his usual panache, well, that's the day *I* unsub.

I'd say the expletives *certainly* helped get his point across. They usually
do, in his case. Any minute now we're gonna start requiring Hemingway to use
subordinate clauses and Henry James to write sentences that are under 100
words.

Ker-rist.

raku, temperature rising

And I am applauding you, standing on my chair and howling! Fuckity fuck fuck! the LAST thing we need on this list is Ms. Manners and censorship! Oh, I'm all for 'polite' but I what the hell is Gamin on about? There ain't no minors on this list, this is a SMUT list. If I can write cock and piss and damn and fuck in my stories, why the hell should I censor my posts?

Rae, going out to scream obscenities at the land-crabs. PS: did y'all know that the international scuba diver's sign language for 'crab' (as in the aquatic variety) is scratching at your crotch? Now there is a universal sign!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[Miss Sunbeam]

If I can write cock and piss and
> damn
> > and fuck in my stories, why the hell should I
> censor
> > my posts?
>

> right on, sis!
> can you believe that post!
>
> sunbeam

I feel awful: I would never want to jump on anybody's
stomach and it looks like I did jump on Gamin just now
- I had meant to send the "right on sis" thing
privately to Rae, because I do agree with her and Liz
about self-expression, totally, utterly,
thoughtlessly, but my public stance would be to allow
Greywolf space to be an evolving Greywolf and Gamin
space to be an evolving Gamin and criticizing hir in
public doesn't give hir too much space.

(hey, does that make sense? Oh, rats, I'll just say
fuck and shit and piss and big balls and tits and
bottomhole and feel much better that way.)

I apologize, Gamin, and I bet you didn't mean your
post to sound the way it sounded.

sunbeam (hell and rear end and boobs and nuts and
nipnips)

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[Greywolf the Wanderer]

Rak...@aol.com wrote:

> Greywolf wrote:
>
> > > >Rank personal attacks are definitely out of line. But god damn it, this
> is a group who write and read stories, how the fuck can we have any kind of
> meaningful discourse if only praise is permitted? I never heard such a
> monstrous crock of shit in all my life. *FUCK* that.>
>
> And Gamin responded:
>
> > And this is not a personal attack at all, but Greywolf, I know
> > you're an articulate person from your most recent post to me. Were all the
> expletives really necessary? Did they help to get your point across and make
> you more right? Just asking...because I don't think you need them...you seem
> well able to express yourself without them.

In yer opinion. Yes they were necessary. Ye dinna have to cuss if it freaks ye
out. Me, I grew up around Marines and Sicilians. I like to cuss, so I do. So
ye might as well save the Ann Landers routine for someone who'll fall for it.

Ye like to pussyfoot about, Gamin. Ye hint coyly about morals and slash, what's
lewd and what's not, do a Church Lady act when I cuss a bit. Well, if that's
what floats yer boat, ok I guess. Me I step right up and call bullshit bullshit.

I don't follow judeo-christian tradition. I never have. I'm not about to start
now. I write what I like and say what I like.

> To paraphrase Greywolf farther down in his original message, the day that
> Greywolf starts responding with the kind of diction that Gamin apparently
> prefers instead of with his usual panache, well, that's the day *I* unsub.
>
> I'd say the expletives *certainly* helped get his point across. They usually
> do, in his case. Any minute now we're gonna start requiring Hemingway to use
> subordinate clauses and Henry James to write sentences that are under 100
> words.

Heh. Fat fuckin' chance on any of *that* shite ;-)>

> Ker-rist.
>
> raku, temperature rising

GreywolfdeVulCheq
Vulcan Biker Punk
Fucking Deal With It Folks

[hafital]

> Hmmm....it's a toss up...David Bowie or kd...preferably both...but
hey...you
> can't have everything...

Hmm, that is a tough choice. I have to say, both of these two together is a
picture I never in my life expected to imagine. <g>

>
> control
> drunkenly lusting after all and sundry...

Sounds like fun. Can I join?

hafital

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