Writers on Writing
Jungle Kitty
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
To: ascem <ASC...@onelist.com>
Subject: [ASCEML] Writers on Writing
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
If you go today's NY Times webpage (http://www.nytimes.com/) and click
the link "Life of Prose and Poetry: An Inspiring Combination," you'll
get to read a wonderful article by Marge Piercy in which she describes
her experiences as a writer of both poetry and fiction.
Fanfic writers who have been following the comments of a certain
professional publisher on ASC (and please don't mention him by
name--like Betelgeuse, he'll show up) may find it comforting that she
doesn't consider herself restricted to a particular genre. Her insights
on why she writes are also enlightening--she never once mentions writing
one thing over another because one is commercially viable. Apparently,
even pro writers have to follow the muse; that is, unless they're
writing for Pocket Books. I particularly enjoyed her comments on why she
enjoys reading her poetry aloud to an audience. She says poetry is a
community activity. Sound familiar, anyone?
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
----------------------------------------------
"May God reword you with joy and grout."
Christmas blessing from the guy who cleans
my house, and no, I don't understand it,
but I'm sure it's good.
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Sigrid H.
From: "Sigrid H." <sigridthes...@yahoo.com>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Writers on Writing
From: "Sigrid H." <sigridthes...@yahoo.com>
Okay -- I'm invariably nosey, but this comment struck me.
> Fanfic writers who have been following the comments of a
> certain professional publisher on ASC (and please don't
> mention him by name--like Betelgeuse, he'll show up) may
> find it comforting that she doesn't consider herself
> restricted to a particular genre.
What, exactly, is this person saying? That people who write
prose ONLY write prose and people who write poetry, ditto? That
no author has ever both written a mystery AND a science fiction
novel?
Hogwash.
But if you're talking about the difference between writers --
well, there are some who write 'original' fic; some who write
work-for-hire; and some who write BOTH.
Yes, there are general differences among writers: Some do stick
solely to one category. But there are authors who have written
adaptations of children's movies for 2 or 3 thousand bucks who
have also had original works of literary fiction. Hey, whatever
pays the bills. Generally speaking, however, they don't tend to
use the same name.
Kinds of fiction (excluding spin-offs).
Poetry (well, it's not quite 'fiction but... Whatever.)
Literature
'Popular' Fiction which can be broken down into
Not-Quite Literary
Mysteries
Science Fiction
Romance
etc.
People who write to these 'genres' are the absolute owners of
their work (unless they're foolish enough to sell the copyright.
Note: NEVER sell the copyright to your work. Only grant
(exclusive) permission to a publishing company to publish your
work based on certain well-defined criteria which, if not met,
means that all rights revert to you, the author. And always have
a lawyer or an agent review any contract you may sign, though,
generally speaking, you can trust the major publishers. But it
never hurts to have someone haggle on your behalf.
Writers of original works of fiction have the final say in an
editorial sense (but not in terms of marketing, including book
jackets and such, unless a writer has a) proven themself to be a
goldmine and b) proven they have sense when it comes to an area
that's not quite their area of expertise (ie. marketing and the
design of book jackets. Which is not to say that publishers are
necessarily geniuses in this arena either).
Anyway, people who are writing about original characters (and
many times folks DO write for different genres, sometimes under
different names) get paid an advance and then a royalty.
And then there are the people who write for series - these
people get paid a flat fee and, generally speaking, no royalty.
For two reasons basically.
1. As we know full well, and to our great chagrin, Spock, Nancy
Drew, Sherlock Holmes, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer were not
(sadly) the products of our fertile imaginations. Which is not
to say that our fertile imaginations can't think of plenty of
things for these folks to do.
(hmmm. Nancy is driving along in her sporty yellow roadster and
she picks up two hitchikers -- one named 'Spock' and another
named 'Buffy' and another named Sherlock...)
2. People, if they're going to buy a spin-off book are mostly
buying it because it's got a big 'Star Trek' emblazoned on the
front of it. Not because of who WROTE the book. Yes, that
sometimes changes, which means that sometimes those authors
(other than celebrity authors) who write for a series get so
well known for turning out something inventive and fresh that
they get better paid or might even get a royalty, depending on
what the corporate parent has to say about such things...
Anyway, the difference between being the writer of what I'll
call 'profic' (since I've seen the term used here) and
'original' fic is that the former are writing to 'spec'. Not
that there can't be a certain amount of artistry involved, but
basically they're being paid for the craft of writing and not
for their artistry. A roomful of (hopefully) clever editors may
even have brainstormed a plot and said 'here, go write this.'
.......
Okay, enough from me. I have no idea who this professional
publisher person is (I'm hoping it's not me since I spouted off
about editing two weeks ago) but I felt the sudden urge to
counter (at length *sigh) any notion that one person can't write
for different audiences.
Also, for those interested in more on a writers perspective on a
writer's life, I loved Bird by Bird by Anne LaMott. Very funny,
very human. Thoroughly enjoyable...
anne
--- Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:
> If you go today's NY Times webpage (http://www.nytimes.com/)
> and click
> the link "Life of Prose and Poetry: An Inspiring Combination,"
> you'll
> get to read a wonderful article by Marge Piercy in which she
> describes
> her experiences as a writer of both poetry and fiction.
>
Wildcat
From: Wildcat <wildc...@yahoo.com>
From: Wildcat <wildc...@yahoo.com>
--- Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:
> I'm referring to John Ordover of Pocket Books, who
> searches ASC for
> threads that contain his name. He says that he never
> goes to ASCEM, so I
> guess this will be a test to see if he does.
*Loved* your reference to Beetlejuice. <g> Very apt.
> Anyway, he's been pretty snippy on ASC lately,
> belittling people's
> writing aspirations, even those who have been
> professionally published
> in non-Trek areas. According to him, (paraphrasing
> here), if you want to
> write pro, you shouldn't write fanfic. Period.
Why aren't my Nyquil dreams anything like yours, JK?
Last night, I dreamed *repeatedly* that I'd told
Ordover off via email, and convinced him that writing
fanfic *does* make one a better writer. My post was
very enlightened and intelligent.
Sigh. Guess I've been fretting too much over Bubba.
I'll probably avoid that Nyquil tonight.
Anyway, it just kills me how he more-or-less claims
that writing fanfic rots your brain. Before I wrote
my first story almost two years ago, I hadn't written
anything creative since I won a ball-point pen for a
short essay in seventh grade. Oh, I wrote lots of dry
technical things, but writing for fun? It was new
territory for me. I think that I did okay, maybe, but
I was operating from instinct. (Darn, in my dream
last night I had a better word than instinct, but now
it's gone.) Anyway, I made many mistakes.
Since I began writing fanfic, however, I've learned
what POV is. I've learned how to pace a story. I've
learned how to get into a character's head and
perceive the universe from a different perspective.
I've learned to listen, to smell, to taste, to hear,
and then to sit down and try to capture it in words.
I'm still making mistakes, and I still have a lot of
learning to do, but the point is that I *am* learning.
If I hadn't started writing fanfic, I'd be where I
was two years ago.
Now, I have no intention of becoming a professional
writer. I'm sure that I'll never even attempt to
publish anything creative under my real name. My
career is steady and lucrative, and even better, I
love what I do. But I feel like I'm acknowledging a
part of myself that I never knew existed, and I feel
pretty good about that.
Wildcat
=====
http://members.tripod.com/~TSU_Campus/Wildcat.html
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Sala...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:38:53 EST
From: Sala...@aol.com
In a message dated 12/20/99 9:36:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wildc...@yahoo.com writes:
<< Now, I have no intention of becoming a professional
writer. I'm sure that I'll never even attempt to
publish anything creative under my real name. My
career is steady and lucrative, and even better, I
love what I do. But I feel like I'm acknowledging a
part of myself that I never knew existed, and I feel
pretty good about that.
Wildcat >>
It seems that a many of us feel this way..and it is not always necessary to
do something for the money (as I try to tell my husband)...or to be the best.
For many of us, we know that we better not give up our day time jobs..but
there is something to be said for letting loose the artistic impulse...
Salatrel
Ista...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:48:30 EST
From: Ista...@aol.com
In a message dated 12/20/99 7:05:54 PM Central Standard Time,
sigridthes...@yahoo.com writes:
<< I have no idea who this professional
publisher person is (I'm hoping it's not me since I spouted off
about editing two weeks ago) but I felt the sudden urge to
counter (at length *sigh) any notion that one person can't write
for different audiences.
Also, for those interested in more on a writers perspective on a
writer's life, I loved Bird by Bird by Anne LaMott. Very funny,
very human. Thoroughly enjoyable... >>
No, it was not you, it was J-o-h-n O-r-d-o-v-e-r. Sshh, be wery quiet. we
are whispering, in case he hears us. ;-D
Jungle Kitty
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
Sigrid H. wrote:
>
> From: "Sigrid H." <sigridthes...@yahoo.com>
>
> Okay -- I'm invariably nosey, but this comment struck me.
>
> > Fanfic writers who have been following the comments of a
> > certain professional publisher on ASC (and please don't
> > mention him by name--like Betelgeuse, he'll show up) may
> > find it comforting that she doesn't consider herself
> > restricted to a particular genre.
>
> What, exactly, is this person saying? That people who write
> prose ONLY write prose and people who write poetry, ditto? That
> no author has ever both written a mystery AND a science fiction
> novel?
I'm referring to John Ordover of Pocket Books, who searches ASC for
threads that contain his name. He says that he never goes to ASCEM, so I
guess this will be a test to see if he does.
Anyway, he's been pretty snippy on ASC lately, belittling people's
writing aspirations, even those who have been professionally published
in non-Trek areas. According to him, (paraphrasing here), if you want to
write pro, you shouldn't write fanfic. Period. He has stated pretty
clearly that the two genres are mutually exclusive. Doesn't seem to
matter if you just write fanfic for fun and have no intention of ever
getting it published or if you write it to jumpstart your muse when your
other stuff isn't going well. Fanfic doesn't lead to pro writing, no
way, no how, even though there are pro authors who have and continue to
write fanfic. If you're going to write one thing, you should stop
writing the other.
Anyway, reading Piercy's comments about the difference btwn writing
poetry and prose, the processes involved, her reasons for writing each
and the rewards involved, I couldn't help but think of John saying,
"Marge, listen to me. If you're going to write prose, stop writing
poetry!"
Yeah, I'm stretching here and Marge Piercy might be appalled that her
writing (which I love) is being dragged into a fanfic discussion, but
I'm really appalled that he can't see any value whatsoever in writing
something that can't be published or working in different genres or
writing to different audiences. Just b/c most pro writers haven't
written fanfic doesn't mean that no fanfic writer can ever turn pro, nor
can you do both. Skills honed in writing fanfic don't cross over.
Incidentally, I recently ran across a non-Trek story in an erotica
collection by Syn Ferguson, an old-time Trekfic writer.
BTW, Sigrid, did you read the article? What did you think?
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
----------------------------------------------
"May God reword you with joy and grout."
Christmas blessing from the guy who cleans
my house, and no, I don't understand it,
but I'm sure it's good.
----------------------------------------------
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Jungle Kitty
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
To: ASC...@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Writers on Writing
From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
Wildcat wrote:
> Why aren't my Nyquil dreams anything like yours, JK?
> Last night, I dreamed *repeatedly* that I'd told
> Ordover off via email, and convinced him that writing
> fanfic *does* make one a better writer. My post was
> very enlightened and intelligent.
Why am I picturing some weird TV commercial--
"This is your libido."
"This is your libido on fanfic."
> Anyway, it just kills me how he more-or-less claims
> that writing fanfic rots your brain. Before I wrote
> my first story almost two years ago, I hadn't written
> anything creative since I won a ball-point pen for a
> short essay in seventh grade.
A ball-point pen? Ooooooh, I'm so jealous. Raku has a typing certificate
with glitter on it.
I actually did win a playwriting contest once, but I don't think I even
have the program from the production anymore.
BTW, what was the topic of your essay? My play was about love and sex
and being female in the 70s. Boldly going where Mary Tyler Moore
couldn't.
> Since I began writing fanfic, however, I've learned
> what POV is. I've learned how to pace a story. I've
> learned how to get into a character's head and
> perceive the universe from a different perspective.
> I've learned to listen, to smell, to taste, to hear,
> and then to sit down and try to capture it in words.
> I'm still making mistakes, and I still have a lot of
> learning to do, but the point is that I *am* learning.
> If I hadn't started writing fanfic, I'd be where I
> was two years ago.
With nothing to do but look forward to the next game of piano hockey.
Wildcat
From: Wildcat <wildc...@yahoo.com>
From: Wildcat <wildc...@yahoo.com>
--- Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:
> > Before I
> wrote
> > my first story almost two years ago, I hadn't
> written
> > anything creative since I won a ball-point pen for
> a
> > short essay in seventh grade.
>
> A ball-point pen? Ooooooh, I'm so jealous. Raku has
> a typing certificate
> with glitter on it.
It was really neat, with a paperweight base. Neon
orange and purple. Ah, the color scheme of 1971.
> BTW, what was the topic of your essay? My play was
> about love and sex
> and being female in the 70s. Boldly going where Mary
> Tyler Moore
> couldn't.
That's great! I'm afraid that my topic wasn't quite
as progressive as yours. I had to pick something in
the class (a brand-new desk) and write about it, and
everyone else had to guess what it was.
> > I'm still making mistakes, and I still have a lot
> of
> > learning to do, but the point is that I *am*
> learning.
> > If I hadn't started writing fanfic, I'd be where
> I
> > was two years ago.
>
> With nothing to do but look forward to the next game
> of piano hockey.
Gee, JK! Don't you know your sports? It's not piano
hockey season. We did have basketball ACT last
weekend, however.
Wildcat
=====
http://members.tripod.com/~TSU_Campus/Wildcat.html
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Wildcat
From: Wildcat <wildc...@yahoo.com>
--- Sala...@aol.com wrote:
> It seems that a many of us feel this way..and it is
> not always necessary to
> do something for the money (as I try to tell my
> husband)...or to be the best.
> For many of us, we know that we better not give up
> our day time jobs..but
> there is something to be said for letting loose the
> artistic impulse...
Exactly! And as I reread what I wrote yesterday, I
realized that I left out my main point. (Too much
cold medication, I suppose.)
Even though I do this with no intention of ever going
pro, if I *did* want to write professionally, I'd be
much better equipped than I was two years ago, before
I started writing fanfic.
Sigrid H.
From: "Sigrid H." <sigridthes...@yahoo.com>
From: "Sigrid H." <sigridthes...@yahoo.com>
> In a message dated 12/20/99 9:36:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wildc...@yahoo.com writes:
> << Now, I have no intention of becoming a professional
> writer. I'm sure that I'll never even attempt to
> publish anything creative under my real name. My
> career is steady and lucrative, and even better, I
> love what I do. But I feel like I'm acknowledging a
> part of myself that I never knew existed, and I feel
> pretty good about that.
> Wildcat >>
--- Sala...@aol.com wrote:
> It seems that a many of us feel this way..and it is not
> always necessary to
> do something for the money (as I try to tell my husband)...or
> to be the best.
> For many of us, we know that we better not give up our day
> time jobs..but
> there is something to be said for letting loose the artistic
> impulse...
I came to fanfic via soap opera fic. What amazed me was the
quality and inventiness of the writing. As I've said I was in
publishing and have read more slush (unsolicited manuscripts)
than any one person should be subjected. I was constantly amazed
by a) how much of it was truly awful and b) how people seriously
thought they *could* give up their day jobs, become successful
and wealthy 'authors.' Yes, people who wrote things (illustrated
with crayon and stickers) called "Friends Because Their Nice."
Or the cautionary tale of the grandmother who smoked in bed and
met a sad end (no joke! And this one was illustrated (rather
gruesomely) too.) Or the 20 page manuscript which consisted of a
mother yelling at her son for going out in the rain without
having put on his galoshes. (*TWENTY* *PAGES*. *Single-spaced.*
Containing the line 'her cavernous gray eyes narrowed.') And
much, much more...
I, personally, like the idea that people don't equate writing a
work of fiction with becoming rich and famous but rather as a
reward in it's own right that is even sweeter when someone says
(or, even better, a whole bunch of someones) say 'wow. thanks.'
If there are any writers on ASCEM who do want to be
'professional' writers there are defintely those who, with
determination, could very likely make it. The talent is there,
the question is, of course, the individual deciding to write
something commercially viable and then finding someone who sees
both the talent and the commercial possibilities. I think Mr. O
has a point in that I wouldn't exactly *tell* anyone that you'd
written fanfic, and your publisher would probably hope that
you'd deny it if anyone asked. But, the publisher of your
exceptionally literary, potentially prize-winning novel would
probably want you to deny having written a Harlequin romance as
well.
And now -- speaking of Harlequins and deniability, I'm going to
to be a wee bit snotty. As in every niche in society, there are
people higher up the food chain and people lower down the food
chain. Up on the high end of things (from an intellectual point
of view) are the editors and publicists and marketing people who
get to publish literary National Book Award, Pulitzer
Prize-winning stuff. And way down on the bottom are those that
work with romance authors and, yes, those who work on serial
type spin-offs, presumably like Mr. O. Maybe Mr. O just has an
inferiority complex and is trying to make himself feel
important.
Of course, now that every single publisher except Farrar Strauss
Giroux (I think) is part of an international media conglomerate,
the people who get the most respect are the people associated
with the books that make the parent company lots and lots of
money. Which may mean that in the relative scheme of things Mr.
O is one heckuv an important fellow, and he just wants you to
realize how very lucky you are to have brushed up against him.
Pfeh.
anne
=====
Greywolf the Wanderer
From: Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net>
From: Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net>
Wildcat wrote:
> > > I'm still making mistakes, and I still have a lot
> > of learning to do, but the point is that I *am*
> > learning. If I hadn't started writing fanfic, I'd be where I was two
> years ago.
> >
> > With nothing to do but look forward to the next game of piano hockey.
>
> Gee, JK! Don't you know your sports? It's not piano hockey season. We
> did have basketball ACT last weekend, however.
What it is, piano hockey?
Normally it would be time to make ice in the street and play hockey outside
-- but it is so warm there is no ice! Gods, I am *loving* this weather!!!
> Wildcat
Greywolf the Wanderer, twice happy -- my email is working again, and I did
*not* break my thumb after all, yesterday -- just banged the hell out of it.
Islao...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 06:57:22 EST
From: Islao...@aol.com
In a message dated 12/21/1999 12:48:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Ista...@aol.com writes:
<<
Also, for those interested in more on a writers perspective on a
writer's life, I loved Bird by Bird by Anne LaMott. Very funny,
very human. Thoroughly enjoyable... >>
>>
oh, yes, a lovely book - curiously I haven't reread it since I started
'writing' fanfic. must look at it again. I've been so busy writing lately
that I've neglected my non-newsgroup reading...
Isla
jat (Jane)
Re: [ASCEML] Writers on Writing
Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:23:40 -0800
From:
"jat (Jane) " <jat_sa...@my-deja.com>
Organization:
My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80)
To:
"ASCEM submission address" <as...@earthlink.net>
Guys, what the Boundary Man knows about current thinking on the writing process
can obviously be written on a postage stamp and leave plenty of room for the
Elvis picture. Editing, I presume he knows; writing, he clearly does not.
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:35:16 Wildcat wrote:
>From: Wildcat <wildc...@yahoo.com>
>
>My post was
>very enlightened and intelligent.
Your waking posts *are* enlightening and intelligent. For heaven's sake, let us
not succumb to Mr. O's browbeating nonsense.
<much good stuff snipped>
>Since I began writing fanfic, however, I've learned
>what POV is. I've learned how to pace a story. I've
>learned how to get into a character's head and
>perceive the universe from a different perspective.
>I've learned to listen, to smell, to taste, to hear,
>and then to sit down and try to capture it in words.
>I'm still making mistakes, and I still have a lot of
>learning to do, but the point is that I *am* learning.
> If I hadn't started writing fanfic, I'd be where I
>was two years ago.
Now, this accords with what is known to be known about writing. The Boundary
Man has presumably heard about it too; it's not a state secret, even if it
didn't register with him. That he goes so far out of his way as to write, by my
count, ten posts on a Sunday to ASC in order to tell us that we are lower forms
of writing life is no sign that he's telling the truth. He has an agenda, and
it's an obviously commercial one, though I think it's pretty dumb.
I mean, he was barging in on a thread that was about a Pocket Book that someone
on list had bought. Isn't that what Pocket and Paraborg want us to do? How
many videos, how many reference books, have they sold to people who (like me)
thought, "Gosh, I'd like to write about X ep, but I don't really remember it?"
I *know* that's why I bought "This Side of Paradise," and I'm glad I did. But
when I see the O man getting all snide, I wish I hadn't opened my wallet to
anyone even distantly connected. He has forgotten that Paula has a wallet too.
That is stupid of him.
>Now, I have no intention of becoming a professional
>writer. I'm sure that I'll never even attempt to
>publish anything creative under my real name. My
>career is steady and lucrative, and even better, I
>love what I do.
This is the point I also tried to make, but as I didn't use his name I suppose
his bot never caught it. Never mind; everyone says he does this often, so it
would obviously take a photon torpedo to penetrate. Doing this is *not
connected* to what he cares about: whether we shell out bucks to buy his book
line. Doing this *is* connected to what we care about: writing better and
having good stuff to read that bends the boundaries the O man is trying so hard
to brick up.
>But I feel like I'm acknowledging a
>part of myself that I never knew existed, and I feel
>pretty good about that.
Brava.
---
jat (Jane)
jat_sa...@my-deja.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We shall find peace. We shall hear
the angels. We shall see the sky
sparkling with diamonds.
--Chekhov (the writer)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Gamin Davis
Re: Writers on Writing
Date:
2 Jan 2000 06:05:39 GMT
From:
arkiet...@usa.net (Gamin Davis)
Organization:
Creative Network Concepts, Inc.
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
Islao...@aol.com wrote in <386ec1f5...@news.mindspring.com>:
>oh, yes, a lovely book - curiously I haven't reread it since I started
>'writing' fanfic. must look at it again. I've been so busy writing
>lately that I've neglected my non-newsgroup reading...
Since you all are discussing writing, I thought I would throw in my 2
cents. Unlike most of you, I always intended to write professionally. For
various reasons, it hasn't worked out, but I've been writing TOS fanfic for
almost 20 years now, which is a 'profession' of sorts (I don't have a day
job to quit; that's another reason I write so much). Writing is my life,
as Kirk would put it, my "first, best destiny", and in these stressful
times it keeps me sane.
BTW, the person you're discussing is merely one of dozens of those in
the pro publishing world who look down on fan writers. Some of the others
are pro ST writers.
Gamin