K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
powellfamily
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
From:
"powellfamily" <pow...@seacove.net>
Subject:
Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:53:38 GMT
I think that Kirk would emphathize with a person who had lost his wife,
regardless of whether he was in love with Spock or not.
Now, Margaret Warner Bonano did write a rather infamous pro novel
called Dwellers in the Crucible which had a Vulcan girl T'Shael and a
human girl Cleante who were both held captive by the Romulans/Klingons
and subjected to many classic hurt/comfort type situations that women
and vulcan characters face in those stories(sex with captors, pon farr,
trying to kill oneself to save the other, etc.)
Everyone thought that it was closet K/S since the two were so close,
Bonano used the word t'hy'la throughout and the book compared their
relationship to that of Kirk and Spock with Spock trying to help
T'Shael cope with what he termed --and I'm quoting straight from the
book (ellipses mean cuts in dialogue)
'You are that which she (Cleante) needs' Spock suggested, his voice
gentler. How familiar were these agonies!....'The other half of her
soul....
Hw continues later by saying
'Listen to your soul, T'Sheal-kam....Love for the human, once
initiated, cannot be undone. Accept that you can never repay your
t'hy'la for her sacrifice, and let this be the foundation of your love.'
I think that you would like the book. You'll have to look around for
it of course, it's pre-'87 (as if that wasn't obvious with the subject
matter) so it's out of print.
Hope that helps,
Sharron
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
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Re: ASCEML - Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
Fri, 14 Aug 1998 18:15:14 EDT
From:
AKite...@aol.com
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
Well, if you want to discuss K/S slips in Pro Novels, there's
always Della Van Hise's "Killing Time". The original print run
of this book was pulled from bookstore shelves and sent back
for re-editing. It seems that someone that I assume had a
grudge against the author complained to the right people to
have this done. Della writes (used to write?) K/S fanfiction under
a pseudoname and this person knew that. The scenes that were
extracted from the book were not IMO that suggestive. You had
to be really looking for K/S references to find them. The first time
I read the book, I knew about slash (this was 1985, by the way),
but I hadn't read any. Anyway, I never could figure out what the
fuss was all about.
Anita
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NeedlStar
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References:
1
Has anyone else mentioned the pro-novel "Killing Time" (by Della Van Hise,
IIRC). The first printing of this novel was done from the uncensored
manuscript, and TPTB were seriously alarmed. There were *lots* of K/S moments
in the novel, and they didn't like it one bit... The second printing came out
very quickly, and it is very interesting to see the editing that was done. Its
been a long while since I've read either versions, but it was very ...
Interesting... to someone who was only slightly aware of K/S at the time....
It is amazing what a little imagination can do...
Debbie
Susannah Mandel
Date:
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:42:41 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Susannah Mandel <sma...@fas.harvard.edu>
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, ASCEML wrote:
> From: ksl...@hotmail.com
>
> I'm asking some of my fellow fen to check my eyesight here. I was
> re-reading an old ST pro novel, "Probe", by Margaret Bomano Wander
> when a few lines from the pages leaped out and grabbed me. I don't
> know why I didn't notice this before.
[quotation snipped]
> If this were strictly non-K/S friendship as Paramount insists, why
> would Kirk feel "sudden empathy" for an officer who had lost not just
> his first officer, but his mate as well? Note that the author did not
> put Kirk's reaction after Spock's description of the first officer,
> but the wife.
> What do you guys think?
>
> Starluck
> ksl...@hotmail.com
Heee. _I_ think you ought to read Margaret Wander Bonanno's Star Trek
novel "Strangers from the Sky," and _then_ decide whether you really
think
this is a "slip" on her part.
I loved _Strangers_ -- and still do, I think -- in part because much of
it
is terrifically done and interestingly crafted (the premise is what I'm
pretty sure is a non-canonical acount of Earth's real "first contact"
with
Vulcans), but also in part because it has some of the slashiest 'canon'
writing I've ever seen. Yet... tasteful. And well done, and well
justified. (Still.... some mild h/c having to do with K & S's
separation,
an "alternative timeline" worthy of Della Van Hise's _Killing Time_,
plus
a sort of underspecified but clearly crucial conceptual crux that
Spock's
existence, and the meeting and friendship of K & S, is somehow destined
and necessary and one of the most important and wonderful things ever to
happen in the world. As, of course, we'll all agree.
(Not to mention that the bulk of the book is set with K & S holed
up in a tiny apartment (yes, details are specified) locked into a
mind-meld. Yep, that's right -- put near _all_ of it! Okay, McCoy is
along to chaperone (and it really _does_ read that way), but still.)
Enough with the spoilers, anyway! I loved that book -- I mean,I'm
not saying it's great literature, but _I_ _loved_ it, if you take my
meaning. ;) And I'm pretty darn sure that the author is either, er, a
fellow-traveller, or is simply thinking about the K&S relationship in a
way that brings her awfully close to the way of thinking that propels
the
K/S premise.
Male bonding? Oh _hell_ yes; I mean, God yes, and _then_ some. I
mean... well, I'm sure that this adjective that would make Paramount
turn
green. But it's an awfully _romantic_ book.
Hee hee.
Everybody, go read _Strangers_.
--
cheers,
--;-;--@ susannah };&)
I hadn't realized that she'd written a book called... oh dear.
heh heh. _Probe_. heh heh heh.
Hey, anyone for Vonda N. MacIntyre's book... um, it's like #2 or
something; it's also got an unbearble alternative timeline. It's the
one
where she kills Captain Kirk really, really _dead_. *So* much angst,
yeeeow!
TOS books used to be so much more fun. Before folks wised up and
became... careful with the subtext. ;)
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ksl...@hotmail.com
Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:39:07 GMT
From:
ksl...@hotmail.com
Organization:
Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
need...@aol.com (NeedlStar) wrote:
>
> Has anyone else mentioned the pro-novel "Killing Time" (by Della Van Hise,
> IIRC). The first printing of this novel was done from the uncensored
> manuscript, and TPTB were seriously alarmed. There were *lots* of K/S moments
> in the novel, and they didn't like it one bit... The second printing came out
> very quickly, and it is very interesting to see the editing that was done.
Its
> been a long while since I've read either versions, but it was very ...
> Interesting... to someone who was only slightly aware of K/S at the time....
>
> It is amazing what a little imagination can do...
>
> Debbie
>
>
I've heard A LOT of the subtle K/S slant in this novel, especially the earlier
version, but I still have to read of an example, let alone quotations from the
text.
Debbie, since you have read the book/s and might still have them, can you
oblige us with a few examples? (grovel, grovel)
Thanks,
Starluck
ksl...@hotmail.com
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SAMK
Re: ASCEML - Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:03:31 -0500
From:
"SAMK" <sa...@inil.com>
To:
<AS...@earthlink.net>
> Debbie, since you have read the book/s and might still have them, can
> you oblige us with a few examples? (grovel, grovel)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Starluck
> ksl...@hotmail.com
>
If you are going to do this, may I strongly suggest you only
do it through email directly to Starluck? Let's not push our
luck on the copyright issue, folks.
SAMK
sa...@inil.com
Greywolf the Wanderer
Re: ASCEML - Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
From:
Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net>
Organization:
Furverts Anonymous
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
References:
1
ASCEML wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
> From: Susannah Mandel <sma...@fas.harvard.edu>
> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:25:21 GMT
<snippage of great comments about "The Killing Time" and "Strangers From
the Sky", definitely two of the Wolf's favourite TOS novels!!>
> --
> cheers,
> --;-;--@ susannah };&)
>
> I hadn't realized that she'd written a book called... oh dear.
> heh heh. _Probe_. heh heh heh.
> Hey, anyone for Vonda N. MacIntyre's book... um, it's like #2
> or
> something; it's also got an unbearble alternative timeline. It's the
> one where she kills Captain Kirk really, really _dead_. *So* much
> angst, yeeeow!
Ah, yes... "The Entropy Effect" -- great stuff!! Wonderful h/c; not
only the angst over Kirk's death <and a right gruesome death it was,
too> but Spock suffering as he tries again and again to set things
right. Mmm-hmm, yeah, yummy. Another one of my favourites; re-read it
so often it fell apart and I had to score another copy <tips hat to
Andrew in the UK>
And as long as we're talking angst here, how about "Ishmael"? Yes, I
know, it's kind of a sort of a crossover with some silly TV series or
other -- but it doesn't matter! Barbara Hambly is a Goddess of h/c,
IMHO. Both Trek, and her original stuff -- wonderful, marvelous, good
shit, Maynard.
What the hell -- I *like* to torture the characters, all right? So sue
me ;-)>
> TOS books used to be so much more fun. Before folks wised up
> and
> became... careful with the subtext. ;)
Oh baby oh baby oh yeah!!! <big evil toothy grin> Oh, well. That's
what *we're* here for, right? ;-)>
Greywolf the Wanderer, TOS author and dashing not-so-young
fag-about-town
Ellen Lewis
Re: ASCEML - Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
From:
Arac...@webtv.net (Ellen Lewis)
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
Starluck:
Subtle? Della van Hise? In any other genre, the woman would have been
called a pornographer (is that a word?).
This was from the days when XXX was a goal, for most of these women.
Della never wrote a story that was suitable for my mother to read. (Of
course, I didn't read much back then that *was.*) Everyone was
punch-drunk back then, with the freedom to write whatever their little
hearts desired. And, oh, Goddess, was there some bad stories back then.
At this point, I have to admit that I don't like bdsm, torture stories,
S/M, or anything even faintly weird. H/C is as far as I'm willing to go.
Della van Hise was into the mildly kinky stuff. Lots of h/c, graphic
sex, bdsm, all that. But she was a fairly good writer.
There was a British zine, which name I can't recall at the moment, that
printed stories with a harder X than Della did. Just one. She was the
queen of the hard core K/S back then. IMHO, anyway.
As a guideline, most of Aunt Ruth's stories wouldn't have been
publishable back then. They would have been too strong in tone. But for
her day, Della was really rough. She could be considered the grandmother
of the ASCEM.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The older I get, the less I trust technology.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
T'Pat
Re: ASCEML - Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
From:
"T'Pat" <tpa...@yahoo.com>
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
> Hey, anyone for Vonda N. MacIntyre's book... um, it's like #2
> or
> something; it's also got an unbearble alternative timeline. It's the
> one where she kills Captain Kirk really, really _dead_. *So* much
> angst, yeeeow!
> TOS books used to be so much more fun. Before folks wised up
> and
> became... careful with the subtext. ;)
If you mean "The Entropy Effect" then, I'm all for it.
It's the first ST book I ever read (yes, with the dictionary and the
notebook to record new, fashinating words, and a major pain in the
neck,
for a non native speaker). It kept me going, and going.
I remember having to look up one word out of five, and still I went
through
it in less than three days.
It was an experience.
Those were the days.
Dramatic, romantic (in the literary sense) heart-tearing pages.
At the time I had no notion of K/S.
No notion of myself, as well <an eyebrow shots up, did *I* just say
that?>.
But it was so *there*.
For those who have not read it yet, my advice is to go and grab it.
(there's a taped version, as well.)
Prepare for truckloads of angs, h/c, and a ton of that single-minded
Vulcan in 'save the captain's ass' mode.
<sighs>
Yup, a must.
(oh, BTW, Kirk dies TWICE in the book.
I don't think anyone ever accomplished that much!)
Just my humble, heart-felt opinion.
LLAP, T'Pat
==
`Different' is normal. Normal? Now, *that* is different. T'Pat
>:-j
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Amy Amy
Date:
From:
"Amy Amy" <amy...@ix.netcom.com>
Organization:
ICGNetcom
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
Haven't checked into this newsgroup for awhile... just reading this (really
interesting!) K/S thread.
Anyway, I distinctly remember reading these two books -- I don't believe
they were done by Pocket Books, or whoever the key publisher is -- but
regardless -- they were called "The Fate of the Phoenix" and "*can't
remember rest of title* the Phoenix" -- they were amazing. Basically Kirk
and Spock are mentally linked in this book; though I was fairly young when
I read them even I realized that there was some major slash action going
on... it also involved this interesting sort of mental rape scene with a
Romulan female, so there was hot h/c stuff going on as well.
Okay, flash to that song from Cats... *Memories, da da dee da dum da
dum...* I think I need to make a vist to my parents' house and go dig
those books out of the closet.
Anyway, I highly recommend these books to any K/S fan. I have no idea if
they're still in print. (If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to lend
mine.)
-A
Helsos
To:
<as...@earthlink.net>
Date:
17 Aug 1998 21:39:54 GMT
From:
hel...@aol.com (Helsos)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:
Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
>Ah, yes... "The Entropy Effect" -- great stuff!! Wonderful h/c; not
>only the angst over Kirk's death <and a right gruesome death it was,
>too> but Spock suffering as he tries again and again to set things
>right. Mmm-hmm, yeah, yummy. Another one of my favourites; re-read it
>so often it fell apart and I had to score another copy <tips hat to
>Andrew in the UK>
Has anyone heard the audiotape of this novel? It was one of the early
ones,
with George Takei and Leonard Nimoy doing the voice of Spock. Still
sends
shivers up my back when he says (as Spock) " But I had felt James Kirk
die."
The tape was well done, except that it cut out all the back story for
Sulu :-)
which I had thought was very interesting... Sulu finally getting a
little nooky
too...
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n...@my-dejanews.com
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.isc.org
From:
n...@my-dejanews.com
Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:57:53 GMT
Organization:
Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
The book title referred to below (written by Vonda McIntyre) is "The
Entropy
Effect". It's good. NDM
In article <35d50d3a...@news.earthlink.net>,
sma...@fas.harvard.edu wrote:
> Date:
> Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:42:41 -0400 (EDT)
> From:
> Susannah Mandel <sma...@fas.harvard.edu>
>
> I hadn't realized that she'd written a book called... oh dear.
> heh heh. _Probe_. heh heh heh.
> Hey, anyone for Vonda N. MacIntyre's book... um, it's like #2
or
> something; it's also got an unbearble alternative timeline. It's the
> one where she kills Captain Kirk really, really _dead_. *So* much
angst,
> yeeeow!
> TOS books used to be so much more fun. Before folks wised up
and
> became... careful with the subtext. ;)
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http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
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T'Pat
Re: ASCEML - Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
Date:
Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:09:13 -0700 (PDT)
Greywolf wrote:
> And as long as we're talking angst here, how about "Ishmael"? Yes, I
> know, it's kind of a sort of a crossover with some silly TV series or
> other -- but it doesn't matter! Barbara Hambly is a Goddess of h/c,
> IMHO. Both Trek, and her original stuff -- wonderful, marvelous, good
> shit, Maynard.
Oh, yes, let's talk about it!
In one word--hear-tearing (ok, it's two, I can count
<frowns, daring people to dispute that>).
>
> What the hell -- I *like* to torture the characters, all right? So
> sue me ;-)>
That would be highly illogical.
T'pat--Now, which books did I buy again when
I crossed the ocean?
==
`Different' is normal. Normal? Now, *that* is different. T'Pat
>:-j
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Linda Wan
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
Date:
Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:42:47 -0700
Subject:
Re: K/S Slip in Pro Novel?
From:
lin...@juno.com (Linda Wan)
Hi! Just wanted to let you know that the Price of the Phoenix and the
Fate of the Phoenix is by Myrna Culbreth and Sandra Marshak, reprinted
not too long ago with the pic from the eps. Bantam is the pub when back
then and reprinting it now.
Hope that helps
LL&P
Linda
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