Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
K.S. Lover
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Date:
Sat, 09 May 1998 23:09:35 PDT
From:
"K.S. Lover" <ksl...@hotmail.com>
To:
mae...@capital.net
CC:
as...@earthlink.net
Oh, boy, I really screwed it up this time.
First of all, my sincere and profound apologies to everyone, especially
the author of Hot Chocolate, for offending them with my language. It IS
a language problem - I'm not an American and I live on the other side of
the globe - and some of the words get lost in translation. Meaning, my
grasp and use of a certain word may have not been that precise.
Just to be precise this time: the kind of stories I was referring to
were the type referred to in Star Trek Lives - and the authors did quote
a zine writer / publisher saying, "...some of the stories go to the
extent of raping the hero." And that is a direct quote. But, I didn't
get the concept of assault or non-consensus sex in that paragraph,
because again from what the authors were discussing, Spock ended up
liking the whole thing anyway. He didn't get traumatized or felt
exploited. As I said, he ended up liking anyway.
And, to be honest, I've just read about that subject in Star Trek Lives.
I haven't seen a real zine story that explores that subject.
(If it's really not rape, is it Spock-ravished-by-a-dominant-woman?)
Hope that clarifies things. Again, I'm really sorry if I've offended
the other readers, especially Spock fans. Believe me, I am one.
Starluck
ksl...@hotmail.com
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Maellen of Yiktor
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Date:
From:
Maellen of Yiktor <mae...@capital.net>
To:
<ksl...@hotmail.com>
CC:
<as...@earthlink.net>
On 1998-05-09 ksl...@hotmail.com said:
>Oh, boy, I really screwed it up this time.
>First of all, my sincere and profound apologies to everyone,
>especially the author of Hot Chocolate, for offending them with my
>language. It IS a language problem - I'm not an American and I
>live on the other side of the globe - and some of the words get
>lost in translation. Meaning, my grasp and use of a certain word
>may have not been that precise.
Hello Starluck, ASCEM,
To complete this loop, I'm answering this through ASCEM as well. No
apologies are necessary -- on your part. You were quite precise before. I
was the one who screwed up. And even if I had been correct, which I wasn't,
I was brought up not to lose my temper in public, which I did. If anyone
owes apologies, it's me to you and the Group.
>Just to be precise this time: the kind of stories I was referring
>to were the type referred to in Star Trek Lives - and the authors
>did quote a zine writer / publisher saying, "...some of the stories
>go to the extent of raping the hero." And that is a direct quote.
>But, I didn't get the concept of assault or non-consensus sex in
>that paragraph, because again from what the authors were discussing,
>Spock ended up liking the whole thing anyway. He didn't get
>traumatized or felt exploited. As I said, he ended up liking
>anyway.
>And, to be honest, I've just read about that subject in Star Trek
>Lives. I haven't seen a real zine story that explores that subject.
>(If it's really not rape, is it Spock-ravished-by-a-dominant-woman?)
Wasn't there a K/S mirror universe story called "Ravishment" where Spock
was the sub? I don't remember who wrote it. Maybe the rest of you can
help me out on this. I know that's not m/f, but you still might enjoy
reading it.
>Hope that clarifies things. Again, I'm really sorry if I've
>offended the other readers, especially Spock fans. Believe me, I
>am one.
>Starluck
>ksl...@hotmail.com
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Maellen
Maellen
Asceml
To:
<as...@earthlink.net>
Date:
11 May 1998 04:48:29 GMT
From:
asc...@aol.com (Asceml)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:
Re: Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Starluck writes:
>Just to be precise this time: the kind of stories I was referring to
were the type referred to in Star Trek Lives - and the authors did
quote a
zine writer / publisher saying, "...some of the stories go to the
extent of
raping the hero." And that is a direct quote. But, I didn't get the
concept
of assault or non-consensus sex in that paragraph, because again from
what the
authors were discussing, Spock ended up liking the whole thing anyway.
He
didn't get traumatized or felt exploited. As I said, he ended up liking
anyway>
Ah, the old, it wasn't really rape, s/he wanted it anyway defense. Sorry
doesn't work for me..
>And, to be honest, I've just read about that subject in Star Trek
Lives.I
haven't seen a real zine story that explores that subject.
(If it's really not rape, is it Spock-ravished-by-a-dominant-woman?)
>
No, your honor. I didn't rape s/he. I'm was just feeling really
dominant that
day and ravished her.
Nope. Still doesn't work for me.
>Hope that clarifies things. Again, I'm really sorry if I've offended
>the other readers, especially Spock fans. Believe me, I am one.
>
I'm a Spock fan. too. I'm also a big fan of not reading stories(or
actually
being in real life) about someone being ravished by a dominant
person.So, as A
Spock fan, I'm not offended. As the latter type of person, I am.
Hope this clarifies things.
anne in chicago
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Jungle Kitty
Subject:
Re: Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Tue, 12 May 1998 12:13:09 -0700
From:
Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
Organization:
All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@moderators.uu.net
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
I can read (and can appreciate, if that is the right word) a story in
which someone is raped, as long as they don't enjoy it. For me, rape
glorification is out.
I can read and enjoy a story in which two consenting people are playing
a dominance game, as long as I know that both parties are aware that
it's a game.
I can't appreciate a story in which a rape victim enjoys the experience
or falls in love with his/her rapist.
Not to say that others shouldn't read/write/enjoy those stories. I'm
just trying to point out the variety within the scenario.
So why do I love Killa's "Surrender" so much? For me, it kind of falls
into a gray area. Spock is definitely dominant in that story, but to me,
it came through loud and clear that Kirk wanted and needed this. I think
that I would usually say, "Yeah, right, bullshit," but Killa writes so
beautifully that I'd probably weep over her shopping list. So in the
right hands...who knows what may happen.
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
--------------------------------------
It's not your grandmother's Star Trek.
--------------------------------------
Mary Ellen Curtin
Subject:
Re: Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Date:
From:
"Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
To:
<AS...@EARTHLINK.NET>, "Jungle Kitty" <jki...@accesscom.com>
Jungle Kitty:
<snip of a bunch of well-worded stuff with which I agree
*completely*>
>So why do I love Killa's "Surrender" so much? For me, it kind of
falls
>into a gray area. Spock is definitely dominant in that story, but to
>me, it came through loud and clear that Kirk wanted and needed this.
I
>think that I would usually say, "Yeah, right, bullshit," but Killa
>writes so beautifully that I'd probably weep over her shopping list.
>So in the right hands...who knows what may happen. -- Jungle Kitty
I actually don't think "Surrender" falls into the gray area. In
the first place, there's:
>Fear of a different kind surged
>through him, and he started to struggle again, though he knew it
>was futile.
> But "Shh," Spock whispered against his ear. "I am not going
>to hurt you, Jim. I will not hurt you. You must trust me."
This is not as, hm, contractually explicit as Ruth's BDSM
101 lecture recommends, but it does cover the essential
point.
And in the second place, there's the fact that Spock is a touch
telepath. I have assumed that's what he means by saying
"Vulcan intuition" when Kirk asks, "How did you know?"
(i.e. what I wanted). As, later JTK says of communication
through their bond:
>And before, when you were rubbing my shoulders,
>and you knew what I was thinking. What I wanted."
So while in anything even more vaguely approaching
RL the "I knew what you wanted all along, despite what
you said, cuz I could read your mind" excuse will not
fly one millimeter, here I'm inclined (and not just because
it's my inclination) to accept it.
I've been thinking lately about what is involved in
Treksmut Sexual Morality, and I've concluded that for
us there are two absolute requiments: respect and
consent. I'm not sure they aren't really two facets of
the same thing.
Consent can be global: "I'll agree to do anything you
want" (without spoiling the surprise by specifying in
advance what exactly that will be), but it relies on respect:
one person's trust that what the other will do, will respect
their inner nature.
One of the things that I was much struck by in Ruth's
BDSM lecture was that sticks and stones are less
dangerous than words. I can't find the quote at the moment,
but it was to the effect that verbal humiliation (as opposed
to humiliation with props) is much more chancy, more
likely to cause permanent trouble. I think that's because
words can whip your self-respect, while whips only hit
your skin.
I find that in fact I am much more bothered by sex (on
TV, for instance) that is not respectful or consensual
than I used to be. Shocked, in fact. For me, non-cons
kissing is much, *much* more serious than NC-17
acrobatics.
Just my backhoe of latinum,
Yours,
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
Jungle Kitty
Subject:
Re: Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Date:
From:
Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
To:
Mary Ellen Curtin <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>,
ascem <as...@earthlink.net>
References:
1
Mary Ellen--
Very well said.
Did you read the newer version of "Surrender," which Killa reposted a
few months ago, or the older? The only changes I noticed in the newer
version were a few small additions to make it crystal clear that Spock
*knew* all this stuff. (I can't remember exactly, but I don't think the
line about Vulcan intuition was in the older version. I may be wrong
about that, though.) Actually, I preferred the older and I'm still not
sure why, but I think it's mainly because I liked Kirk & Spock knowing
this stuff about each other and not having to spell it all out. And I
didn't feel it was at all ambiguous, but I gather that many people read
this as a "rape and the victim likes it" story.
Mary Ellen Curtin
From:
"Mary Ellen Curtin" <mecu...@alumni.Princeton.EDU>
To:
"Jungle Kitty" <jki...@accesscom.com>
Cc:
<as...@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Date:
Thu, 14 May 1998 20:06:10 -0400
JK:
You asked:
>Did you read the newer version of "Surrender," which Killa reposted a
>few months ago, or the older?
I'm not sure -- I'm pretty sure I got my copy
(which would be well-thumbed if electrons could
do that) out of the archive. The copy I have says
"copyright 1997", but I cut out all the posting
details.
>The only changes I noticed in the newer
>version were a few small additions to make it crystal clear that
Spock
>*knew* all this stuff. (I can't remember exactly, but I don't think
the
>line about Vulcan intuition was in the older version. I may be wrong
>about that, though.) Actually, I preferred the older and I'm still
not
>sure why, but I think it's mainly because I liked Kirk & Spock
knowing
>this stuff about each other and not having to spell it all out. And I
>didn't feel it was at all ambiguous, but I gather that many people
read
>this as a "rape and the victim likes it" story.
As I said (sorta), the "knowing and not having to spell
it out" bit can be pretty problematic if you're not a
telepath. Married people do know a lot about each
other and don't always have to spell things out ("Honey,
where's the thing?" "In the thing." "Oh. Thanks!"), but
that takes *years*. I'm not actually sure K&S have known
each other that well, in that way, for that long.
Yours,
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
Aleph Press
From:
al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press)
Re: Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Netcom On-Line Services
Date:
Thu, 14 May 1998 17:15:34 GMT
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@uunet.uu.net
Something else to say on the subject of Spock, or any male character,
being ravished by a dominant female.
This really does not apply to SPock. But most males have been raised to
believe that any sex is good sex. If you didn't want it, and she tied
you
down and forced you, and you didn't then like it, you're not much of a
man. There's enormous psychological pressure on a man like Kirk or
Riker
to convince himself that he did like it after all, because what kind of
man wouldn't like sex with an aggressive woman?
As I see it, there are two components in rape:
There must have been an expression of lack of consent (I'm sorry, but
if
you didn't say *anything*, and you didn't put up any resistance, just
laid there like a dead fish, in a context where you could reasonably
have
been thought to be consenting such as a date, then your "rapist"
probably
had absolutely no way to know you didn't want it.)
The victim must feel raped.
So if you say no no no, but your heart really *does* mean yes yes yes,
and your partner forces you, and that's what you really wanted, then
even
though an objective observer would have to call it rape, you may not
feel
any sense of violation. This isn't to say the perpetrator was right to
do
what he or she did, because of the gray area and the fact that (esp. in
real life) there's usually no way to be *sure* what your partner really
wants. But if you have Kirk being tied up and ravished by the Alien
Chick
of the Week, and he loves it... well, with Kirk that's possible.
There's
too much psychological pressure on him to *not* admit to himself that
it
was a violation, and in fact he might genuinely have wanted the release
without having to be in control. (The fact that men are expected to
initiate sex and then do most of the doing-to leaves a lot of men with
fantasies about being helpless at the mercy of beautiful women who take
complete control of sex...)
personally, I find this an awfully unlikely scenario for Spock. If
Spock
didn't want it, and said no, he meant no. The fact that it was
physically
pleasurable isn't going to change his mind-- a violation of his
self-discipline with an overload of pleasure would still be a
violation,
to him. But it is *possible* to write a story where a character,
espeically a male character, has sex agaisnt his will with a character,
especially a female character, and still have him end up by the end of
the story thinking he liked it. (It's possible to do it with women too,
but the squick factor is much higher there because most real rapes are
man-on-woman, and women are much more psychologically conditioned to
believe that sex you didn't want is a terrible violation rather than a
passing aberration of not being in the mood.)
--
Be good, servile little citizen-employee, and pay your taxes so the
rich
don't have to.
--Zepp Weasel
Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com
All Aleph Press stories are at http://www.mindspring.com/~alara/ajer.
Aleph Press
From:
al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press)
Subject:
Re: Challenge: The Rape of Spock?
Organization:
Netcom On-Line Services
Date:
Thu, 14 May 1998 17:00:24 GMT
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@uunet.uu.net
Jungle Kitty (jki...@accesscom.com) wrote:
: I can't appreciate a story in which a rape victim enjoys the
experience
: or falls in love with his/her rapist.
Under very limited circumstances, I can. That is, the phenomenon of
falling in love with your rapist is a real psychological defense, that
people really do engage in if they cannot get awa y from the rapist.
The
Stockholm syndrome, where people identify with their captors and seek
to
please them, is real.
However, stories that present the "falling in love with the rapist" as
a
*good* thing, rather than a psychological defense that represents a
partial psychic destruction, bother the shit out of me. If the story is
a
dark tale of the psychic wreckage that ensues when a victim falls in
love
with a rapist, I can enjoy it as a "bummer" story. If it presents this
as
romantic and loving, bleah.
And all that being said, for Spock it's just not believable. Spock
*wouldn't* fall in love with his rapist. Vulcans have rather different
psychological reactions to things than humans do, because of the
intense
training and discipline; Spock is too rational to lose sight of the
fact
that this person is abusing him.
*But,* on the third hand :-). It is possible to write a story about a
person who says "no" to sex, but actually desires it and *wants* to be
pushed into it, without denying the reality of actual rape. Humans--
and
humanoids-- are complex things. If you want sex, but you feel that it
would be a violation of your self control, putting up resistance and
saying no might be ways of getting the other person to take all
responsibility from you, so you needn't feel you violated your self
control. This is a *very* tricky subject to write. Taken in one
direction, it can squick people because it looks a hell of a lot like
noncon, or "she really wanted it"; *you* may know your character really
wanted it, but if the other character *didn't*, then the other
character
is still psychologically guilty of rape. Taken in another direction, it
can say that desire for sex overrides all other considerations-- that
if
you have very good reasons not to engage in sex, but you physically
desire it, that it is natural, normal and desired to ignore your good
reasons and have sex anyway. But it is a psychological reality, and
handled properly, it can make a good story.
I'm working on a story now in which a rapist tortures her victim by
making him physically experience pleasure. Her goal is to break him
down
and make him enjoy being a slave, but the effect she's having is to
condition him that pleasure=humiliation and being used by someone he
hates, so instead of learning to like humiliation, he's learning to
hate
pleasure. The intent is *not* supposed to be erotic-- it's a torture,
perpetrated by an irredeemable character who's going to die for her
crimes.
Personally I'd like to see more fallout. A telepathic character forces
a
person he or she loves to have sex, because even though they say they
don't want it and they resist, the telepath *knows* that they really
do.
However, the loved one feels violated because he or she was deprived of
the choice of self-denial, and ends up despising the telepath for
taking
that choice from him or her. I wouldn't want to see this done with
Spock,
because anyone as dependent on self-control as Spock would *not* want
to
strip an unwilling person of tht control, but frankly I could see Troi
as
pepetrator in this kind of scenario... the trouble is that because
Riker
will screw anything and Worf would be too ashamed to let himself admit
he
*didn't* want sex and that Troi *could* have forced him, both of them
would convince themselves they did want and like it. Perhaps a
Troi/Picard... though it would be too similar to Robin's Riker/Picard
rape story, maybe... hmmm.