Judith's FB for "The Word Withheld"/ zine vs. net writing?
T'Rhys
>
>Doesn't just about every romantic
>story rely on a plot device?
Every story written by anyone, not just the romantic K/S ones. Tropes and
plot devices abound in the works of Shakespeare, but interestingly nobody
ever complains about their presence there. <g>
>Both zine writers and net writers
>are writing K/S. We just aren't that far apart.
Quite right. There are zine writers who have and always have had styles
similar to some current net writers, and net writers who have styles
similar to those of writers found in early K/S zines even though they had
never seen any zine before they started posting. Greywolf and Killa are
good examples of the latter, Alexis Fegan Black and Jenna Sinclair the former.
Personally, I think there aren't that many (if any) new ways left to tell
any story and we should all quit overanalysing and finding huge
significances (and making possibly unintentional value judgements in the
process) in the ways we tell our K/S tales and just enjoy the *stories*.
LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>
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ASCEM messages are copied to a mailing list. Most recent messages
can be found at http://www.egroups.com/group/ASCEML.
T'Rhys
>
>T'Rhys, I appreciate what you're saying -- especially about the
>unintended value judgements, but I think that one of the last things
>we want to do is suppress critique and critical discussion in any
>way. There isn't enough of that sort of discussion here IMHO and all
>too often, people who give comments on a work find themselves getting
>criticized for commenting (sometimes overtly, sometimes subtly).
>Some may interpret comments like yours as a sort of silencing --
>though I'm sure you didn't mean it that way at all.
No, absolutely not. I just would like to see people who do that sort of
in-depth critical analysis being able to do it without giving off this
feeling I sometimes get that it is the only sort of feedback that has any
value.
Greywolf the Wanderer
> Quite right. There are zine writers who have and always have had styles similar
> to some current net writers, and net writers who have styles similar to those of
> writers found in early K/S zines even though they had never seen any zine before
> they started posting. Greywolf and Killa are good examples of the latter, Alexis
> Fegan Black and Jenna Sinclair the former.
Err... now I'm *really* confused. Most of the early zine stuff I've seen is along
the lines of, "Oh, we're really straight men, we just can't resist one another."
Being queer myself I always found that premise seriously lacking in credibility,
and have gone out of my way to avoid it. Closest I'll go is making one or both of
the boys Bi. So I guess I'm missing something here, or reversing your meaning. I
don't think I write anything like the early stuff. Hope I don't sound pissed
here, cause I'm not -- just curious. and of course, delighted and honoured to be
considered alongside of Killa, whose writing I adore and admire.
Hmm -- or are you referring to the way the early zines were more tolerant of
bummers and alternative styles and subjects? Maybe I just misread you -- it'd no
be the first time. there's a good reason why I wear a button that says,
"Dyslexics of the Universe, Untie!" <big grin>
Greywolf, who actually quite enjoys critical analysis, as well as the more common
sort of feedback
a. h. vericker
----- Original Message -----
From: Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net>
To: <ASC...@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ASCEML] Judith's FB for "The Word Withheld"/ zine vs. net
writing?
greywolf wrote:
Gosh, I like that senario. It's the hopeless romantic in me ;-) I've read
many stories where it rings true and I could see it happen that way with
K/S.
So much net and print fan fic is written with that premise. I think
it can happen that way between K and S because of their unique
friendship....
Jenna Sinclair writes the guys that way and I adore her stories. I think
they are very believable and wonderful to read...
hugs
Helen
Greywolf the Wanderer
> greywolf wrote:
>
> > T'Rhys wrote:
> >
> > > Quite right. There are zine writers who have and always have had styles
> similar to some current net writers, and net writers who have styles similar
> to those of writers found in early K/S zines even though they had never seen
> any zine before they started posting. Greywolf and Killa are good examples of
> the latter, Alexis Fegan Black and Jenna Sinclair the former.
>
> > Err... now I'm *really* confused. Most of the early zine stuff I've seen is
> along the lines of, "Oh, we're really straight men, we just can't resist one
> another." Being queer myself I always found that premise seriously lacking in
> credibility, and have gone out of my way to avoid it. Closest I'll go is
> making one or both of
> > the boys Bi. So I guess I'm missing something here, or reversing your
> meaning. I don't think I write anything like the early stuff. Hope I don't
> sound pissed here, cause I'm not -- just curious. and of course, delighted
> and honoured to be considered alongside of Killa, whose writing I adore and
> admire.
>
> Gosh, I like that senario. It's the hopeless romantic in me ;-) I've read many
> stories where it rings true and I could see it happen that way with K/S.
IDIC ;-)> I just can't believe it easily, myself. And yes, I too have enjoyed
stories written that way; I can often suspend my disbelief for the length of a
story. But to *write* that premise, I couldn't do it, not with a straight
face. Er, as it were... ;-)>
> So much net and print fan fic is written with that premise. I think
> it can happen that way between K and S because of their unique
> friendship.... Jenna Sinclair writes the guys that way and I adore her
> stories. I think they are very believable and wonderful to read...
I enjoy Jenna's stuff too. I just can't bring myself to write that premise, it
doesn't ring true enough to hang a whole story on. but yeah, I've enjoyed some
stories written that way. But it's definitely not one of my favourites.
> hugs
> Helen
Greywolf, queer as a three dollar bill and damn proud of it too ;-)>
T'Rhys
>
>--- In ASC...@egroups.com, "T'Rhys" <tknight@i...> wrote:
>
>> No, absolutely not. I just would like to see people who do that sort
>of
>> in-depth critical analysis being able to do it without giving off
>this
>> feeling I sometimes get that it is the only sort of feedback that
>has any
>> value.
>
>
>as I'm getting quite the opposite feeling from posts *about* such
>critical analysis, perhaps you could share with us what about such
>analyses gives you that feeling?
>
The intimidation factor of unequal comparisons. Here's an analogy: Grandma
serves her friends chicken salad from a family recipe. Three of them think
it's great, her best ever; two of them want slightly more pepper; and the
last one gives a critique comparing it to similar dishes created by world
famous chefs. Grandma ends up confused and rather intimidated because she's
never heard of a lot of these chefs and couldn't tell you the difference
between a remoulade and roux if her life depended on it (hey, that dish was
just something her mamma taught her to make). What's worse, other people
start agreeing with this last person's analysis and saying how perceptive
the food critic is and how valuable this analysis is because it will help
Grandma be an even better cook.
LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
T'Rhys
>
>T'Rhys wrote:
>
>> Quite right. There are zine writers who have and always have had styles
similar
>> to some current net writers, and net writers who have styles similar to
those of
>> writers found in early K/S zines even though they had never seen any
zine before
>> they started posting. Greywolf and Killa are good examples of the
latter, Alexis
>> Fegan Black and Jenna Sinclair the former.
>
>Err... now I'm *really* confused. Most of the early zine stuff I've seen
is along
>the lines of, "Oh, we're really straight men, we just can't resist one
another."
>Being queer myself I always found that premise seriously lacking in
credibility,
>and have gone out of my way to avoid it. Closest I'll go is making one or
both of
>the boys Bi. So I guess I'm missing something here, or reversing your
meaning.
Sorry, I wasn't real clear about what I meant. I wasn't referring to
similarities in the way stories were plotted, I was thinking more along the
lines of language used and theme. Flavor, if you will. In particular I had
in mind the edgier storytelling found in the "Daring Attempt" or "Out of
Bounds" series, which were not exactly typical of most 'early' K/S.
>Hmm -- or are you referring to the way the early zines were more tolerant of
>bummers and alternative styles and subjects?
Judith said that too, and I'm sort of confused. How were they more
tolerant? Until quite recently, my personal experience of the zine world
has been rather the opposite.
>there's a good reason why I wear a button that says,
>"Dyslexics of the Universe, Untie!" <big grin>
LOL, me too! Dyslexic, that is. <gg>
a. h. vericker
> I enjoy Jenna's stuff too. I just can't bring myself to write that
premise, it
> doesn't ring true enough to hang a whole story on. but yeah, I've enjoyed
some
> stories written that way. But it's definitely not one of my favourites.
> Greywolf, queer as a three dollar bill and damn proud of it too ;-)>
And so you should be wolfie ;-) I have enjoyed stories where the two are
perceived
as bisexual. Doesn't mean I don't like the story, but like you, I have my
fav kind of senario.
I like it best when they have had no other male relationships before each
other.
I can buy that Spock is bisexual more easily than Kirk though. Blame it on
the way TOS portrayed Jim I guess. Yet Jim with Spock seems right
as I never felt it was with all those ladies Kirk had. They have a
connection.
We are very lucky to have all kinds of K/S stories out there and different
POV
in writing them I feel...
hugs,
Helen
Greywolf the Wanderer
> At 04:36 AM 11/10/2000 -0800, Greywolf the Wanderer wrote:
> >
> >T'Rhys wrote:
> >
> >> Quite right. There are zine writers who have and always have had styles
> similar to some current net writers, and net writers who have styles similar to
> those of writers found in early K/S zines even though they had never seen any
> zine before they started posting. Greywolf and Killa are good examples of the
> latter, Alexis Fegan Black and Jenna Sinclair the former.
> >
> >Err... now I'm *really* confused. Most of the early zine stuff I've seen is
> along the lines of, "Oh, we're really straight men, we just can't resist one
> another." Being queer myself I always found that premise seriously lacking in
> credibility, and have gone out of my way to avoid it. Closest I'll go is
> making one or both of the boys Bi. So I guess I'm missing something here, or
> reversing your
> meaning.
>
> Sorry, I wasn't real clear about what I meant. I wasn't referring to
> similarities in the way stories were plotted, I was thinking more along the
> lines of language used and theme. Flavor, if you will. In particular I had in
> mind the edgier storytelling found in the "Daring Attempt" or "Out of Bounds"
> series, which were not exactly typical of most 'early' K/S.
Ah, indeed. In that case, yes, I do understand. I haven't got to read many of
those yet, but I remember in the eary Naked Times there were some bummers, some
quite good, too. I do love a good tragedy now and then.
> >Hmm -- or are you referring to the way the early zines were more tolerant of
> bummers and alternative styles and subjects?
>
> Judith said that too, and I'm sort of confused. How were they more
> tolerant? Until quite recently, my personal experience of the zine world has
> been rather the opposite.
I think, from the little research I've done, that zines started out fairly
daring, got stodgy, and are perhaps now beginning to branch out a little now
again. Course I could be full of shite, wouldn't be the first time. And of
course different editors like different things. One editor only likes happy
endings; she also rushes everything into print with little if any editing or
proofreading. Since she also refuses to allow stories to be posted online once
they're in her hands, I have never and will never give her any of my work. But
others I've worked with are a lot more open-minded. I got one story published
where the boys didn't even get to first base, it was all action and thoughts and
at the end they were just realizing themselves what had grown between them -- and
it did well, to my utter amazement. So it seems to me that now we are coming
back towards a wider acceptance of styles and types of stories. Mind you there
will always be readers who hate anything less than "happily ever after" endings
-- but hey, IDIC.
But from what I've heard <and it is hearsay; in that time I had no idea the zine
world existed, nor even the netfen -- I thought sure I was the only K/S'er in the
whole universe>, in, say, the 80's and early 90's, the "perception" among fen was
that only one type of story was best -- what Judith called the long romantic
vignette. And even then, there were stories published that broke the mold. So
hell, maybe all my analysis is irrelevant. Who knows. Me janitor, not professor
of litrachure. Well, ok, at TSU I am on the faculty ;-)> -- but lets just say
that Oxford hasn't been beating down my door with any job offers. ;-)>
> >there's a good reason why I wear a button that says,
> >"Dyslexics of the Universe, Untie!" <big grin>
>
> LOL, me too! Dyslexic, that is. <gg>
Hee-whack!! Personally I think we have an advantage over normies -- we can think
*sideways*, and it gives us more problem-solving options than a logical linear
thinker would have. That's my story an' I'm stickin' to it!
> LL&P }:)
> "T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>
GreywolfdeVulCheq
Greywolf the Wanderer
> Message text written by Greywolf
>
> >Err... now I'm *really* confused. Most of the early zine stuff I've seen is
> along the lines of, "Oh, we're really straight men, we just can't resist one
> another." Being queer myself I always found that premise seriously lacking
> in credibility, and have gone out of my way to avoid it. <
>
> I expect T'Rhys will answer you as to what she meant by "early" zine stuff,
> but the way I read the comment (and the way I meant my reply) was that your
> *style* is similar, not your plots or characterizations. The use of
> description, the way dialogue is written, the emphasis on psychological
> aspects rather than straight action sequences. And where action sequences
> occur, always, always looking at how the events affect the characters.
Absolutely!! This is the crux of it, and for me one area where the eps often
fall short, not just in TOS either. Some horrible gnarly thing happens to
them, and they dust themselves off and cruise happily along, with never so much
as a nightmare or any consequence at all. And that is not at all realistic.
So I always consider, how will this make them *feel*? What changes will this
bring? That's what makes this kind of writing so much fun, for me -- catching
the things the original let slide...
> Writing in such a way as to give a vicarious experience and an emotional
> charge to the reader. Usually that means a pretty close-to-the-character POV
> (rather than, say, omnisicent POV), and sometimes internal monologue. This is
> the category I would put my own stories in, too. And I don't think the
> characters are straight, either, although I love the idea of taking up that
> challenge--what if one or both think they are straight? I love that as a
> story conflict.
Ah, so. Yeah, I can get into reading it. It's a difficult premise for me to
write though. I tend to see Spock as primarily gay, since every time we saw
him making kissy-face he was fucked up in some way. Other than Droxine, and I
refuse to include her in my universe other than as a nuisance, because that
whole scenario was so very poorly done. Spock, cheerfully yakking about pon
farr with some bimbo he barely met? NOT. Gimme a fuckin' break. ;-)>
But I see Kirk as omnisexual, he'll fuck anything that will hold still long
enough for him to try. Not an asshole, just a human with a *strong* sexual
drive and confidence in himself and his desirability. Well-placed confidence
too. ;-)> Prrr!
Still, I've enjoyed lots of the other stories, I'd be lying if I said
otherwise. I just can't put my heart into writing them as boys who are really
straight, just stuck on one another. I have never ever experienced such a
thing in real life, nor observed it in others. My RL experience is that
whatever your orientation, it is a permanent part of your personality. I've
never seen a straight man suddenly turn queer after being straight all his
life. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen -- just that *I've* never seen it
happen.
> LL&P
> J S
Greywolf, thoroughly enjoying this whole discussion
Jane.S
Some horrible gnarly thing happens to
> them, and they dust themselves off and cruise happily along, with never so
much
> as a nightmare or any consequence at all. And that is not at all
realistic.
> So I always consider, how will this make them *feel*? What changes will
this
> bring? That's what makes this kind of writing so much fun, for me --
catching
> the things the original let slide...
You're ***so*** right, Greywolf!
Jane (skazki)
Jane.S
> The intimidation factor of unequal comparisons. Here's an analogy: Grandma
> serves her friends chicken salad from a family recipe. Three of them think
> it's great, her best ever; two of them want slightly more pepper; and the
> last one gives a critique comparing it to similar dishes created by world
> famous chefs. Grandma ends up confused and rather intimidated because
she's
> never heard of a lot of these chefs and couldn't tell you the difference
> between a remoulade and roux if her life depended on it (hey, that dish
was
> just something her mamma taught her to make). What's worse, other people
> start agreeing with this last person's analysis and saying how perceptive
> the food critic is and how valuable this analysis is because it will help
> Grandma be an even better cook.
I *really* don't know if I agree with this. I see your point, but I just
love anyone talking about my fiction, even if I fail to understand every
second word they say. It has to be compliment that it matters enough to be
disliked, sort of thing. But then, we're all different, so I guess it's down
to the authors to say 'no in-depth academic critique that considers my work
to be worthy of comparison with generally acknowledged literary giants...'
and *I'm* not going to say that!
T'Rhys
Definitely agree with that. Does tend to upset people sometimes though -
one teacher learned real fast not to surprise me with questions in class.
<eg>
LL&P }:)
"T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
T'Rhys
>
>Other than Droxine, and I
>refuse to include her in my universe other than as a nuisance, because that
>whole scenario was so very poorly done. Spock, cheerfully yakking about pon
>farr with some bimbo he barely met?
My current theory on that is that he may have been suffering from a
combination of altitude sickness and possible zienite poisoning. After all,
he was down there at the mine entrance for some time and beamed from there
directly to an unpressurised location at least 3000 feet higher in
elevation. That's got to have some kind of effect on the brain.
Mary Ellen Curtin
> The intimidation factor of unequal comparisons.
(and the chicken salad analogy), but personally I reject them
*completely*. When I make what appear to be unequal
comparisons -- e.g. between "The Learning Curve" and
Salman Rushdie's novel "The Ground Beneath Her Feet" --
I am doing it deliberately and aforethought. I compare the
best fan fiction to the best pro fiction because I think they
are comparable. For me one of the great shocks of fan fiction
is that some of it is *better* than profic: more emotionally
intense, more resonant, and (in some cases) more carefully
crafted and done with more love. I do not accept a distinction
between High Culture and Low Culture, and my experience
here has led me to reject a distinction between work done for
pay and work done for love. In fact, it is often the case that
people writing for pay cannot afford to do the job as well as
those writing for free.
Grandma's chicken salad is very likely, indeed almost certain,
to be better than any chicken salad you can buy in a store or
restaurant. It will be fresher, it will use higher quality ingredients,
it will be made in smaller batches. If I compare her cooking
to haute cuisine I do *not* implicitely valorize Jacques Pepin and
devalue Grandma. On the contrary, I'm doing it to emphasize
that Grandma is capable of doing just as well as a master chef at
what the master chefs claim to be their highest goal: combining
excellent ingredients in a way that brings out their best qualities.
Just like fan fiction.
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project
Jane.S
> Or scaring them into not commenting where they otherwise might have. I'm
> not against analyzing per se as long as it's fair, but I can't help
> noticing that when the learned ones among us launch into a dissection that
> is usually the last comment that story ever gets.
So Mary Ellen and the other 'learned ones' should keep quiet, depriving the
rest of us of the benefit of their insight, so that those of us who don't
feel we know what we're talking about (and can't be bothered to go and find
out? It doesn't take a lot of effort to track down even an obscure Canadian
author these days) can witter on in happy ignorance?
I think maybe some people simply need to develop thicker skins, if the
alternative is for all discussion to grind to a halt. I'm reminded of a
venerable SF story in which, in the cause of equality and no one having to
feel inadequate, no one who is good at anything is allowed to practice their
art. There's a lovely description of a ballet corps all made up to look ugly
and weighed down to keep them from being offensively graceful.
Can I suggest another approach, with the permission of the 'learned ones'?
(And who's going to own up to thinking they belong in that category anyway?
The more you know, the more you recognise your own ignorance, though you
might not make a big display of it). If we don't know what someone is
talking about, why don't we just ASK?
Mary Ellen does have a 'this is the final word' way of writing, IMHO. I'm
not saying she's putting anyone down, just that what she writes is so darn
*convincing* and *assured*. I'd hate for her to stop commenting just because
of that.
Jane (skazki)
Mary Ellen Curtin
> Mary Ellen does have a 'this is the final word' way of writing, IMHO. I'm
> not saying she's putting anyone down, just that what she writes is so darn
> *convincing* and *assured*.
Thanks, I guess. I don't know how to convey how very
frustrating I find it when I write a long critique and no-one
responds. I may write like "this is the final word", but that's
just, I dunno, craftsmanship. What I am looking for is disagree-
ment, people who pick holes in my arguments or have a different
POV. On occasion in the past, people have said, "don't be so
convincing" -- but the response I'm looking for only counts when
I'm doing my best to be convincing. For me to pull my rhetorical
punches seems like telling writers not to do their best lest they
hurt readers' feelings -- an attitude which is not uncommon in some
other fandoms ("No death stories! No unhappy endings! Only
certain pairings qualify! No ickiness!"). I want to read stories by
writers who are doing their best, and I want to do *my* best, too,
as a critic and as a writer.
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project
Greywolf the Wanderer
> At 09:49 AM 11/11/2000 -0800, Greywolf the Wanderer wrote:
> >
> >Other than Droxine, and I
> >refuse to include her in my universe other than as a nuisance, because that
> whole scenario was so very poorly done. Spock, cheerfully yakking about pon
> farr with some bimbo he barely met?
>
> My current theory on that is that he may have been suffering from a combination
> of altitude sickness and possible zienite poisoning. After all, he was down
> there at the mine entrance for some time and beamed from there directly to an
> unpressurised location at least 3000 feet higher in elevation. That's got to
> have some kind of effect on the brain.
Hmm, good point. Or maybe she slipped him a Mickey Finn... As filmed, it makes
*no* sense. And Kirk lying down to take a nap in the middle of an emergency
mission? NOT. Bleh. I hate that ep.
> LL&P }:)
> "T'Rhys" <tkn...@ix.netcom.com>
Greywolf
Mary Ellen Curtin
> (4) There is no way I could pass for "learned" in literature or creative
> writing. My fields are law, political science and developmental disabilities.
> I haven't taken a course in English literature since my second year of
> college, and I've never studied creative writing at all.
Ha! Don't sell yourself short, kiddo. You could certainly pass
for "learned" among lit critters, who I've found to be easily
impressed by people who've read a lot of books, regardless
of academic credentials. And why not? It's as good a definition
of "learned" as any -- and I don't reject the word, it has a nice
old-fashioned sound, though perhaps a trifle dusty.
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project
Mary Ellen Curtin
> I know it's Harlan Ellison, but I don't remember the title of
> the story. Not actually one of my favorites of his, I found it
> a little too obvious.
My bad. The story is "Harrison Bergeron," by Kurt Vonnegut.
I mentally filed it with Harlan, but he doesn't deserve it -- it
*is* over-obvious.
Mary Ellen Curtin
> > I'm reminded of a
> >venerable SF story in which, in the cause of equality and no one having to
> >feel inadequate, no one who is good at anything is allowed to practice
> their
> >art. There's a lovely description of a ballet corps all made up to look
> ugly
> >and weighed down to keep them from being offensively graceful.
> LOL! What a great comment on human attitudes! Do you remember the title
> and author? And where it was published?
I know it's Harlan Ellison, but I don't remember the title of
the story. Not actually one of my favorites of his, I found it
a little too obvious.
Mary Ellen
Lienor
> > > I'm reminded of a
> > >venerable SF story in which, in the cause of equality and no one having to
> > >feel inadequate, no one who is good at anything is allowed to practice
> > their
> > >art. There's a lovely description of a ballet corps all made up to look
> > ugly
> > >and weighed down to keep them from being offensively graceful.
> and JS asked:
> > LOL! What a great comment on human attitudes! Do you remember the title
> > and author? And where it was published?
>
> I know it's Harlan Ellison, but I don't remember the title of
> the story. Not actually one of my favorites of his, I found it
> a little too obvious.
>
> Mary Ellen
>
Lienor
Mary Ellen Curtin
> Mary Ellen and I almost came to blows over what Spock should do in a Man of
> His Word. I got so mad that I wrote the story of what would happen if Spock
> did what she wanted him to do. Hee. Sneaky wench. The story read so much
> better after I inserted that part that I wanted to beat her. ;-D
Yes, that was the occasion that led me to invent the phrase,
"Beta for Blood." Worth every drop . . .
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project
Lienor
J S Cavalcante wrote:
> Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com
> >I thought it was Alfred Bester.
> Lienor
> <
>
> Mwahahaha!
>
> J S
Huh?
Lienor
Greywolf the Wanderer
> > Jane S. wrote:
> > > > I'm reminded of a
> > > >venerable SF story in which, in the cause of equality and no one having to
> feel inadequate, no one who is good at anything is allowed to practice their art.
> There's a lovely description of a ballet corps all made up to look ugly and
> weighed down to keep them from being offensively graceful.
> > and JS asked:
> > > LOL! What a great comment on human attitudes! Do you remember the title and
> author? And where it was published?
> >
> > I know it's Harlan Ellison, but I don't remember the title of
> > the story. Not actually one of my favorites of his, I found it
> > a little too obvious.
> >
> > Mary Ellen
> >
> I thought it was Alfred Bester.
> Lienor
I'm pretty sure it's Vonnegut. They made a movie out of it that was
*devastating*. So of course, I can't remember the fucking title. But it was just
that -- society dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. They did a helluva
good job on the movie.
Greywolf
Greywolf the Wanderer
> Of a certain story, I wrote:
> > I know it's Harlan Ellison, but I don't remember the title of
> > the story. Not actually one of my favorites of his, I found it
> > a little too obvious.
>
> My bad. The story is "Harrison Bergeron," by Kurt Vonnegut.
> I mentally filed it with Harlan, but he doesn't deserve it -- it
> *is* over-obvious.
The story might be; I wouldn't know. But the movie was excellent, very well
acted and directed. Check it out some time, you might be surprised. Thanks
for remembering the title. I own a copy, but couldn't remember for the life
of me.
> Mary Ellen
GreywolfdeVulCheq
Jane.S
> > Lienor
This would be Bester the *writer* rather than Bester the psi-cop? You
started a lovely train of thought on the meaning of that crippled arm/hand.
Jane (skazki)
Lienor
J S Cavalcante wrote:
> Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com
> >J S Cavalcante wrote:
>
> > Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com
> > >I thought it was Alfred Bester.
> > Lienor
> > <
> >
> > Mwahahaha!
> >
> > J S
>
> Huh?
> Lienor<
>
> I was thinking of the Walter Koenig character on Babylon 5 . . ..
>
> J S
>
>
Sorry, but now I'm even more confused!
Lienor
Lienor
"Jane.S" wrote:
> > > I thought it was Alfred Bester.
> > > Lienor
>
> This would be Bester the *writer* rather than Bester the psi-cop? You
> started a lovely train of thought on the meaning of that crippled arm/hand.
>
> Jane (skazki)
Oh, I'm starting to get it now--duh! Bester is a character on Babylon 5,
yes? I've never watched it, so I didn't know that. Yes, I meant Bester the
sci-fi writer, and I was wrong. I don't really think of Vonnegut as a science
fiction writer for some reason, and his name never occurred to me, though I
did think of Sturgeon for a minute.
Mary Ellen Curtin
> I don't really think of Vonnegut as a science
> fiction writer for some reason
hee hee. Well, maybe that's because *he* insisted he wasn't
a science fiction writer, ticking off various sf writers (especially
Harlan Ellison the Short-Fused IIRC) who considered him an
sf writer, but a mediocre one. He's the only living person Niven
& Pournelle gave a particular hellish punishment to in their
novel "Inferno". Cruel, but fair.
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project
rae_trail
I am one who most definitely needed a thicker skin.........as that is
probably not realistic after all these years of life, I have just quick
posting my stories. I was a new writer and felt very attacked and never
really encouraged........
I had no goal to be a pro writer, just to have fun and entertain. But when I
began to dread reading my email for the negative feedback, I knew it was
time to keep my stories to myself.
**I am so sorry to hear this, bats. I like your stuff!
The only reason I share this at all, is for those that thrive on the
tearing-apart type of feedback to check with the newbie writers if they want
it done in the open forum.... It can be very embarrassing.....some of you
probably forget that you "older timers" have friends that defend you
all....newbies usually don't.
bats
hey, now... I was nice, wasn't I? and I'm usually such an asshole, too! <g> Rae
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Ellen Curtin
really reply to all the threads in this thread properly. So I'm
just going to post some incoherent ramblings.
Merrin wrote:
> I see the "thicker skin" advice on a number of fanfic groups on which
> I lurk. I've rarely seen anyone suggest that perhaps those at the
> other end of the spectrum develop a little more sensitivity to how
> their posts are perceived.
If I've said I think people should develop thicker skins, I've
changed my mind.
I don't want you-all here to get thicker skins. I'd like you to feel
able to be *braver*. I find that reading & writing fanfic, and
slash in particular, feels to me like freedom. I feel more brave
and free because of the time I've spent on this newsgroup, and
I want to share the wealth. Come out, come out, wherever you
are.
Now as far as my style of FB goes, I only give long academic-style
critiques to writers who I know are interested in (or at least tolerant
of) that sort of thing. And (a) because I'm a slowpoke and (b) as
a matter of policy, I don't post my comments before the end of the
first wave of FB on a given story. In the case of "The Learning
Curve," my major FB -- my article at
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/TLCpaper.htm
-- was more like a year and a half after the story was announced.
Merrin wrote:
> I think if the people who post this sort of analysis would try to
> include phrases such as "to me," and "IMO," they wouldn't put people
> off as much. When I see "academic analysis"-type feedback, I know that
> I would never respond to it, even on groups where I do more than lurk.
> The critic has stated hir opinion in terms that I associate more with
> "impartial judgment" than "opinion." And, IMO, there's no such thing
> as impartial judgment when it comes to creative endeavors. Stating an
> opinion that way sounds to me like you're more interested in imposing
> your opinion on others than in involving them in a discussion.
I do see what you mean. This particular style of rhetoric is used
in formal contexts, ones where the writer is trying to convince,
as well as discuss. The thing is, it's a very powerful style, and
very common, and why not learn to respond to it, here, in a
safe and congeniel setting.
Here's a random example. I'm currently reading a book,
"Surpassing Wonder: The Invention of the Bible and the
Talmuds," by Donald Harman Akenson. It's bang-up amusing,
and written by a historian and biblical scholar of exceptional
open-mindedness. When he says of the book of Ecclesiastes
(Qoheleth) that "it is exactly the kind of thing Oscar Wilde would
have composed, had he been living in Jerusalem under Hellenic
rule", he *seems* to be imposing his opinions as if they are
incontrovertible facts.
What he's really doing, though, is engaging in a form of debate,
one where you state your opinions strongly in the expectation
that people will pick them apart. It tends to be somewhat
impersonal so that we can look at the arguments as though
they didn't come from a particular person, for their soundness
in themselves if you follow me.
And -- when I complained about not getting enough feedback
on my FB, that was mostly whining, impatience, and greed. In
fact I have observed that I a lot of response to my posts -- I just
sometimes want more! more! I'm still not satisfied . . .
Gotta go -- the nose you wipe may be your own.
Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/
Alternate Universes: Fanfiction Studies
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/foresmut/
The Foresmutters Project
Mark Stanley
>
> Karmen Ghia <karmen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm tellin' ya, it's better than WWF
> > in here sometimes.
>
> Ah-hah! The truth comes out. Karmen's little devious plan to get us all in a
> big tub full of goop or mud or margarita flavored jello and get all slimy and
> slippery and squealy.
>
> I can see it now...."WWF's TrekSmut Jello Wrestling Bonanza and Wet T-Shirt
> Contest."
>
> Forgive me. It's friday.
>
I'm sure it would get higher ratings than that Voyager wrestling
episode.
Mark
--
"A true opera fanatic is someone who can listen to the whole William
Tell overture and never once think of The Lone Ranger." -- David W.
Barber
~~~
mrs...@sk.sympatico.ca
http://members.tripod.com/~MarkStanley/
Jane.S
> Come to think of it, a good mud-wrestling ep would go over well for every
> Trek series I can think of, bar the animated folk, who'd wrinkle and fade
if
> they got wet.
I've done melted-chocolate wrestling. Does that count?
Jane (skazki)
rae_trail
Karmen Ghia <karmen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm tellin' ya, it's better than WWF
> in here sometimes.
Ah-hah! The truth comes out. Karmen's little devious plan to get us all in a
big tub full of goop or mud or margarita flavored jello and get all slimy and
slippery and squealy.
I can see it now...."WWF's TrekSmut Jello Wrestling Bonanza and Wet T-Shirt
Contest."
Forgive me. It's friday.
hafital
**Forgive you, hell! I want you to write it! The Great Mary-Sue Wrestling Match! followed this thread but (amazingly) failed to put both feet in it, or you might have had raku vaulting the ropes and tripping over Rae!
Rae
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SAMK
> In a message dated 00-11-19 00:58:44 EST, you write:
>
> > I wonder if the problem is one of being reluctant to admit
> > having liked a story that someone else has expressed reservations
> > about. Even in a group of people as individualistic as we, I think
> > there must be some subtle pressure to "fit in" or "go along" with
> > members who are perceived as opinion leaders.
>
> I'd say the opposite is also true. On occasion I've read a much-praised
> story and thought there were some genuine problems with it, but didn't want
> to be the only one posting comments that were critical of structure,
> characterization, etc. On such occasions where the author is an acquaintance
> I feel more comfy sending such crit off-line, but even so I feel weird if I
> know I"m going against the common grain.
>
> raku
I often have the same feeling. And having once been firmly jumped on
(off-list) for having dared say one part of something didn't seem to work
to me, I have an even stronger tendency to delete things uncommented
upon if I do have problems with them.
On the other hand, if I want to thoroughly pick apart the problems in
someone's writing, I ought to be doing the critiques I owe my writer's
group; here, I want to read something that I can enjoy in near-mindless
serenity.
SAMK
sa...@inil.com