Fun Stuff I'd like to see in this wonderful new year, in Trekfic
trivawolfe
one is about 60 pages, another about 30! I can't get enough Sarek
stories...
T'Riva
--- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Farfalla" <blueberrysnail@y...>
wrote:
> So!
>
> We have a whole new year ahead of us to fill up with the ripe,
> pungent fruit of our multi-flavored brains.
>
> Here are some things that would be fun to see in the coming year,
in
> my opinion. Everybody feel free to add their own, and consider
these
> loose challenges.
>
> -A Sulu/Chekov category. More Chekov in general.
> -A Chapel/Rand category.
> -One can never have too much Sarek
> -Whatever Happened To T'Pring?
> -More stuff with Tasha
> -A Wizard-of-Oz ENT parody in which T'Pol, being green, is the
Wicked
> Witch of the West, Archer is Dorothy, and Porthos is Toto ("I'll
get
> you, my pretty, and your little dog too!!!!) Cast the scarecrow,
the
> lion, and the tin man as you will--extra points if the story winds
up
> being Archer/T'Pol *giggle* (and perhaps, Hoshi is the good witch?
> She's much cooler than Glinda with her My Size Barbie outfit,
anyway.)
> -Seven of Nine on board the TOS-era Enterprise. Why? How? What
> happens?
> -The UhuraFest!! Whoo hoo!! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UhuraFest
> -Porthos and Spot meet. What do they talk, er, communicate about?
>
> Heh. Anyway, have a happy and safe new year!
>
> ~Farfalla,
> the K/S Kitten in a Mitten
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ASCEM messages are copied to a mailing list. Most recent messages
can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASCEML.
Farfalla
Hypatia Kosh
>
> We have a whole new year ahead of us to fill up with the ripe,
> pungent fruit of our multi-flavored brains.
>
> happens?
Hey, I'd much rather read Kirk/7 than Kim/7. Kes as the "Nurse
Chapel" of Voyager was pure bullshit; if anyone was stuck in that
role, it was Kim. Except for some disastrous liasons with aliens
(for which he got a stern talking-to from the captain) he had a
series of hopeless crushes to various unavailable or uninterested
girls, and basically looked like an all-around dork, saved only
from complete dorkdom by his association with "rakish" Tom
Paris--thus fueling widespread speculation that Kim was in
the closet. (Jeri Taylor gives him a gay roommate at the Academy
in her Voyager backstory pronovel, but Kim wimps out when
faced with the prospect of willing and eager manflesh.) Bottom
line: blehhhh.
D/7 was pretty cool, though. It helped that they were the best
actors on the show.
I think there's one Kirk/Seven story out there that I know of
and it wasn't all _that great. I'm sure someone could improve
upon it.
-Hypatia Kosh
Hypatia Kosh
> I have four Sarek stories coming your way in January of 2004, and
> one is about 60 pages, another about 30! I can't get enough Sarek
> stories...
Dude! Roxor!
There are never too many Sarek stories.
-Hy
Acidqueen
> I think there's one Kirk/Seven story out there that I know of
> and it wasn't all _that great. I'm sure someone could improve
> upon it.
http://geocities.com/kirk_fuh_q_fest/public.html
Public Offering, by Judy Gran :) Well, I liked it, and it got a couple
of Os. But of course there could be more *G*
Birgit, who wants to remind people of the SpockFuqhfest, the
Kirk/McCoyFest and the UhuraFest (and of course we can never have
enough Sarek - T'Riva, thanks for announcing your upcoming stories!)
Selek
| > one is about 60 pages, another about 30! I can't get enough Sarek
| > stories...
|
| Dude! Roxor!
|
| There are never too many Sarek stories.
|
| -Hy
Hear, hear!!
Selek
___________________
Check out my websites:
Sarek and Amanda Pictures and Links - http://members.shaw.ca/selek
Sarek and Amanda Story Archive - http://members.shaw.ca/pat_w/
Sarek and Amanda Photo Gallery - http://members.shaw.ca/jo_pat/
Ambassador Soval - http://members.shaw.ca/soval/index.html
http://www.starbase-10.de/vld/ (Vulcan Language Dictionary)
Selek
|
| We have a whole new year ahead of us to fill up with the ripe,
| pungent fruit of our multi-flavored brains.
|
| Here are some things that would be fun to see in the coming year, in
| my opinion. Everybody feel free to add their own, and consider these
| loose challenges.
|
| -A Sulu/Chekov category. More Chekov in general.
| -A Chapel/Rand category.
| -One can never have too much Sarek
| -Whatever Happened To T'Pring?
| -More stuff with Tasha
| -A Wizard-of-Oz ENT parody in which T'Pol, being green, is the Wicked
| Witch of the West, Archer is Dorothy, and Porthos is Toto ("I'll get
| you, my pretty, and your little dog too!!!!) Cast the scarecrow, the
| lion, and the tin man as you will--extra points if the story winds up
| being Archer/T'Pol *giggle* (and perhaps, Hoshi is the good witch?
| She's much cooler than Glinda with her My Size Barbie outfit, anyway.)
| -Seven of Nine on board the TOS-era Enterprise. Why? How? What
| happens?
| -The UhuraFest!! Whoo hoo!! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UhuraFest
| -Porthos and Spot meet. What do they talk, er, communicate about?
|
| Heh. Anyway, have a happy and safe new year!
|
| ~Farfalla,
| the K/S Kitten in a Mitten
Don't forget Ambassador Soval.
Selek
___________________
Check out my websites:
Sarek and Amanda Pictures and Links - http://members.shaw.ca/selek
Sarek and Amanda Story Archive - http://members.shaw.ca/pat_w/
Sarek and Amanda Photo Gallery - http://members.shaw.ca/jo_pat/
Ambassador Soval - http://members.shaw.ca/soval/index.html
http://www.starbase-10.de/vld/ (Vulcan Language Dictionary)
Babs Bunny
Databit would be most happy about that!:)
Babs Bunny (and Alpine, who's kinda flopped beside me watching me type!)
Alara Rogers
I've actually got a Tasha story planned, although it's not romantic
or sexual-- deals with Tasha and Sela.
If we're making loose challenges for the new year, I'd like to see
Kirk/Q. I've seen Spock/Q but Q has a thing for starship captains,
we all know this... :-)
Hypatia Kosh
> --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Farfalla" <blueberrysnail@y...>
> wrote:
> > -More stuff with Tasha
>
> I've actually got a Tasha story planned, although it's not romantic
> or sexual-- deals with Tasha and Sela.
I was the hugest Yar/Sela fan as a kid. Such a disappointment to
grow up and find out that people think she can't act and the
characters suck. :-/
> If we're making loose challenges for the new year, I'd like to see
> Kirk/Q. I've seen Spock/Q but Q has a thing for starship captains,
> we all know this... :-)
He might have to fight Trelane for him.
-Hy
Alara Rogers
> > --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Farfalla" <blueberrysnail@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > -More stuff with Tasha
> >
> > I've actually got a Tasha story planned, although it's not
romantic
> > or sexual-- deals with Tasha and Sela.
>
> I was the hugest Yar/Sela fan as a kid. Such a disappointment to
> grow up and find out that people think she can't act and the
> characters suck. :-/
I have barely ever seen Tasha because I never watched many of the
first season episodes, but I really like the character anyway. Man,
I wish she'd lived.
> > If we're making loose challenges for the new year, I'd like to
see
> > Kirk/Q. I've seen Spock/Q but Q has a thing for starship
captains,
> > we all know this... :-)
>
> He might have to fight Trelane for him.
Q would win. He's older and he doesn't need to use devices to
channel his power. Also, he whines somewhat less. :-)
Actually my current pet theory is that, given the ludicrousness of
an immortal, omnipotent being growing from infancy to adolescence in
four years, Q's kid was mostly raised in different time periods.
Which means he could *be* Trelane, when he was much younger.
T'Len
>Actually my current pet theory is that, given the ludicrousness of
>an immortal, omnipotent being growing from infancy to adolescence in
>four years, Q's kid was mostly raised in different time periods.
>Which means he could *be* Trelane, when he was much younger
I know books are not canon but I remember having once read a TNG-novel
in which Picard helps Q to fight Trelane, who has gathered even more
power then ever, became somewhat insane and is about to destroy
everything in the universe or better all universes itself. Q tells
Picard that he was very well known with Trelane's parents especially his
mother. So Picard assumes that Q is in truth Trelane's father but Q
avoids a concrete answer.
T'Len
jm
Whoa. I'm not gonna mess with attributations on this one. You all figure it
out. Alara wrote the last stuff, I know that.
It's funny, because my guy has had a project going now to watch all of the
TNG episodes on DVD, in order, from first to last. He finished watching
Season One last night without me. (I was too busy chatting on AIM.) He
didn't know Tasha died in Season One. He thought it happened later, and said
he wished she lived. I do too. I' would like to see more Tasha fic myself.
As for Kirk/Q, that would be cool. I'm at the stage now where I'd be happy
to read (or at least give a chance) and fic with Q in it. I'm so over (err,
maybe more like, getting over) the whole Q-is-only-for-Picard thing. I will
read, and write, Picard with anyone. And actively enjoy him in several
different pairings (I'm hoping to find some good P/C out there). But I was
rather possessive of Q. :-)
Am I reading this right, Farfalla, that you seem to be the same way with
Kirk and Spock? More open to seeing Kirk with other pairings, but less open
to seeing Spock with others? I wonder if this is true for many other people
who ship heavy for a favored pairing. Magneto can roam, but Xavier is only
for Magneto! Hee. Oops. That's X-Men. Sorry, I'll be good and talk about
Trek on a Trek list.
-jm
Hypatia Kosh
> --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Hypatia Kosh" <berli@m...> wrote:
> > --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Alara Rogers" <alara@m...> wrote:
> > > --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Farfalla" <blueberrysnail@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > -More stuff with Tasha
> > >
> > > I've actually got a Tasha story planned, although it's not
> romantic
> > > or sexual-- deals with Tasha and Sela.
> >
> > I was the hugest Yar/Sela fan as a kid. Such a disappointment to
> > grow up and find out that people think she can't act and the
> > characters suck. :-/
>
> I have barely ever seen Tasha because I never watched many of the
> first season episodes, but I really like the character anyway. Man,
> I wish she'd lived.
Yeah. Well, I did watch her a bit because I got into TNG via Reading
Rainbow.
> > > If we're making loose challenges for the new year, I'd like to
> see
> > > Kirk/Q. I've seen Spock/Q but Q has a thing for starship
> captains,
> > > we all know this... :-)
> >
> > He might have to fight Trelane for him.
>
> Q would win. He's older and he doesn't need to use devices to
> channel his power. Also, he whines somewhat less. :-)
Lol, true!
> Actually my current pet theory is that, given the ludicrousness of
> an immortal, omnipotent being growing from infancy to adolescence in
> four years, Q's kid was mostly raised in different time periods.
> Which means he could *be* Trelane, when he was much younger.
Most people seem to think Trelane is some kind of Q anyway, so
why not? That does make a certain amount of sense, and the
flamboyance and obsession with humans would fit.
-Hypatia Kosh
Alara Rogers
> Alara wrote:
>
> >Actually my current pet theory is that, given the ludicrousness of
> >an immortal, omnipotent being growing from infancy to adolescence
in
> >four years, Q's kid was mostly raised in different time periods.
> >Which means he could *be* Trelane, when he was much younger
>
> I know books are not canon but I remember having once read a TNG-
novel
> in which Picard helps Q to fight Trelane, who has gathered even
more
> power then ever, became somewhat insane and is about to destroy
> everything in the universe or better all universes itself. Q tells
> Picard that he was very well known with Trelane's parents
especially his
> mother. So Picard assumes that Q is in truth Trelane's father but Q
> avoids a concrete answer.
It's "Q-Squared" by Peter David, and it's been rendered thoroughly
non-canon by "The Q and the Grey", where it's established that there
*are* no Q children aside from the one Q has.
The ending implication that Q was Trelane's father was highly
problematic to me because it made the Q too damn human. If an
omnipotent being cheats on her husband with her husband's best
friend, how does her equally omnipotent husband not figure this out?
And there was always something absurd to me about there being
monogamy in the Continuum anyway. Personally I think it would have
been cooler if they'd just said Trelane had *three* parents and Q
was one of them... I mean, why would energy beings need to reproduce
in heterosexual pair bonds like humans do?
Farfalla
> Am I reading this right, Farfalla, that you seem to be the same way with
> Kirk and Spock? More open to seeing Kirk with other pairings, but less open
> to seeing Spock with others?
That's true, but mostly it's because that's how I, personally, see the characters. James
T. Kirk is adventurous and there's a lot of him to pass around. *g* Spock, on the other
hand, is more introverted and wouldn't have sex "just for fun", in my view. In *my own
eye* (I'm emphasizing this so that I make it clear that this is just me and not
something I'm posting as fact, lol), Spock belongs to Kirk, body and soul. In a
sensible, Vulcan sort of way, of course! I get the idea that sex is kind of a curiosity to
him, and that he could just as easily not bother with it--but then, Kirk is such a
physical kinda guy, so Spock does stuff. Spock seems like the type for whom
masturbating is a LOOOOT easier to deal with mentally than sex with someone. I'm
not trying to make him asexual, just... sexually isolationist? Heh.
I also can envision them in an open relationship physically, since lately my own ideas
about love, devotion, and emotional fidelity are moving away from being tied in so
tightly with sex... I just don't know if Spock would actually take full advantage of such
a freedom, or whether he'd just use it to maybe get some kind of voyeuristic pleasure
from seeing Kirk boff some attractive woman or man. That might be "safer" for him.
(Does that make sense? Hy, help me here.)
Also, jm, I'll read a lot of things I'd never write or really "*enjoy*" in the same way I
enjoy K/S, but I can still recognize a good story and get some pleasure out of it. But I
*am* an OTP shipper, because in the Treksmut world in my head, K/S is canon :-)
~Farfalla,
backing away from the can of worms sloooowly.... :P
T'Len
be nice. And more pairings with M'Benga in general and M'Benga/McCoy or
M'Benga/Spock in special. I also would like to see more (or better any
fic, I don't think I have ever seen one) with Arex. I ever entertained
the thought that he not only has additional arm and leg but also a
second cock - this would make things very interesting.
T'Len
Acidqueen
would be nice.
Did you read my mind?? I am already on the go since right this
morning, T'Len. SSC is too good a pairing notation to be left out by
a
bdsm writer, and the discussion lately on the German mailing list
finally pushed my muses... :)))))
> And more pairings with M'Benga in general and M'Benga/McCoy or
> M'Benga/Spock in special.
Oh yes! I support this. And given that you already once wrote
M'Benga/Sarek, maybe we find also some more use for that pairing, too
*g*
Birgit
Selek
| > M'Benga/Spock in special.
|
| Oh yes! I support this. And given that you already once wrote
| M'Benga/Sarek, maybe we find also some more use for that pairing, too
| *g*
|
| Birgit
I second that!
Selek
___________________
Check out my websites:
Sarek and Amanda Pictures and Links - http://members.shaw.ca/selek
Sarek and Amanda Story Archive - http://members.shaw.ca/pat_w/
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Ambassador Soval - http://members.shaw.ca/soval/index.html
http://www.starbase-10.de/vld/ (Vulcan Language Dictionary)
Farfalla
> I also would like to see more (or better any
> fic, I don't think I have ever seen one) with Arex.
This qualifies, but it's short:
"Love Bugs"
http://cosmicduckling.com/lovebugs.htm
...in the American South, we get buffeted by waves of these little insects every year
that fly around in pairs permanently mating, and they die on car windshields a lot.
Here's the Arex/Mrs Arex version :P
~Farfalla
czb (Chris)
> Am I reading this right, Farfalla, that you seem to be the same way with
> Kirk and Spock? More open to seeing Kirk with other pairings, but less open
> to seeing Spock with others? I wonder if this is true for many other people
> who ship heavy for a favored pairing. Magneto can roam, but Xavier is only
> for Magneto! Hee. Oops. That's X-Men. Sorry, I'll be good and talk about
> Trek on a Trek list.
In my case, I've been writing the same pairing for a looong time (almost
ten years now ... man, is that obsessive or what?), and my attitudes
have shifted a great deal about certain things, but as a rule, I'm more
tolerant of Odo straying than of Kira doing the same. This seems odd,
even to me, because Kira (like Kirk) seems canonically the more likely
to "play the field." Maybe I feel that Odo is entitled, since he carried
a torch for Kira for so long without her even noticing.
However, the weird twist for me is that I really don't mind seeing
either character slashed. As a general rule, I'm much more open to
reading (and even writing) slash pairings for Kira than I am het
pairings with someone other than Odo. And of course, I have lots of fun
writing Odo slashed with Quark (the number of finished stories I've
posted is small, but I have gobs of unfinished O/Qu on the hard-drive.)
But it's still pretty hard for me to really viscerally enjoy a story
involving Kira with another man, especially if it's a Cardassian--though
frankly Shakaar and Bariel don't do much for me either, and those two
are canonical partners for Kira.
Of course, when I write other partners for both Odo and Kira (as I do
more and more often these days, especially for Odo) I usually find
O/K-vibes sneaking their way into the story, whether I want them or not.
And I admit, more often than not, I do want those vibes there. So often
I'm still writing O/K even when I'm not ostensibly writing O/K.
Another weirdness I've found in my own writing is that it is very hard
for me to write O/K as pure smut without romantic overtones and a
certain amount of "mush factor." Conversely, whenever I involve Odo with
Quark, the smut-factor often gets way out of control. This is why I
sometimes refer to Quark as my muse of smut. Horny little devil. :-)
More than you wanted to know, right?
Chris
Acidqueen
> > happens?
> I think there's one Kirk/Seven story out there that I know of
> and it wasn't all _that great. I'm sure someone could improve
> upon it.
And I just remembered that besides that one K/7 there is also S/7
No Longer Alone by Lorre at
http://groups.google.de/groups?
hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=200008071657.JAA03119%40harrier.prod.
itd.earthlink.net
or
http://www.kardasi.com/fuh-q-fest/no_longer_alone_by_lorre.htm
Birgit, just putting the wishlist 2004 for ASCEM together ;)
Hypatia Kosh
> I also can envision them in an open relationship physically, since
> lately my own ideas about love, devotion, and emotional fidelity
> are moving away from being tied in so tightly with sex... I just
> don't know if Spock would actually take full advantage of such
> a freedom, or whether he'd just use it to maybe get some kind
> of voyeuristic pleasure from seeing Kirk boff some attractive
> woman or man. That might be "safer" for him.
> (Does that make sense? Hy, help me here.)
Well, I can relate to that.
Really all depends on what aspect we're taking Spock in today. (Kind of
like those Hindu gods--they come in different flavors.) You can definately
point to a dozen instances where Spock's all "eww! you touched me!" or
fleeing in the face of sexual advances, but you can also point to half a
dozen places where Spock is going for it. I think he's just super picky.
Goes with being hyper-critical and all that.
Kirk, OTOH, loves being in love and loving, and he has a lot of love to
give . . . all over the consoles, if need be. Though not itchy like a
teenager, nor is he an asshole (he turns a lot of ladies down), when
pressed he invariably gives in gracefully and appears to have a good
time. One might even say he enjoys being pressed into service.
I think Spock would prefer to watch, and let Kirk deal with the weirdness
of some stranger's thoughts and emotions. Even if you go for a fairly
promiscuous Spock I can't imagine an inverted situation where Spock
is sleeping around and Kirk is not. I find a purely monogamous Kirk to
be a stretch. With Spock one sees scores of such stories and despite
countervailing canon evidence, they pass quite easily. Spock is just
plain introverted--dealing with other people is a trial to him. Once he
has a mate, why would he go through all that work? Even if someone
were offered to him on a platter, he'd have to shield their mental
emanations for his peace of mind, and what fun is that? Though I
could see Spock sleeping around with other Vulcans, provided they
weren't being jerks to him.
Kirk's irrepressible. You can't keep him down. Very complementary
creatures, the two of them.
-Hypatia
Hypatia Kosh
> But it's still pretty hard for me to really viscerally enjoy a story
> involving Kira with another man, especially if it's a Cardassian--though
> frankly Shakaar and Bariel don't do much for me either, and those two
> are canonical partners for Kira.
I've sort of avoided Kira het because it doesn't do what I want it
to, but I have to say I wasn't too impressed with Shakaar or Bareil
either. Okay, so Kira worshipped Shakaar back when. But now?
Bleh. I chalk it up to temporary insanity. But Shakaar was better
than Bareil. Maybe it's the sensitive boy syndrome, and who knows,
maybe she thought he was cute (whatever). I mean, he's this
wimpy cleric, whereas she's an ass-kicking pragmatist, despite
certain political affinities.
To be perfectly honest, Kirk/Dukat is more interesting than
either of those pairings, although from a canon POV I can't see
that interaction going beyond what we saw on the show.
Kira is sort of Kirk-like. There are even some similarities in their
backstories. They share a mixture of practicalism and idealism,
though they have different strengths militarily because of the
kinds of wars they've fought. They both suffer a lot. They are
both interesting in the way in which there is little differentiation
in the way they treat males and females. They're different in
that Kirk throws himself around sexually. He uses his body to
get what he wants, whereas Kira is more cut off. She can seem
rather stiff-backed at times. This may be in part due to the
sexism of the men writing her character--even the worldly Dax
doesn't seem to get much tail until she marries (geez!) Worf.
-Hy
Farfalla
> I think Spock would prefer to watch, and let Kirk deal with the weirdness
> of some stranger's thoughts and emotions.
> Spock is just
> plain introverted--dealing with other people is a trial to him.
Yeah! I agree with both of those. And none of this is de-sexualizing Spock...
T'Len
>Did you read my mind?? I am already on the go since right this
>morning, T'Len. SSC is too good a pairing notation to be left out by
>a bdsm writer, and the discussion lately on the German mailing list
>finally pushed my muses... :)))))
Sure. Didn't you know my Vulcan mental power? :-)
Your wish-site just is terrific.
If I may add something more:
Kirk/Scott and Kirk/Scott/Enterprise
And I would like to see more fic about the New Frontier book series in
generel. Especially featering the Hermat chiefengineer Burgyone. And
especially especially Burgyone/Selar and Burgoyne/McHenry and
Burgoyne/McHenry/Selar.
I'm just reading "Renaissance" in which Selar's gay brother Slon is
introduced. I wish TPTB would have half of the bravity Peter David has.
Although Burgy unthankfully is faithful to Selar and don't end up in bed
with him as Slon tries.
Yours
T'Len
Acidqueen
> Kirk/Q. I've seen Spock/Q but Q has a thing for starship captains,
> we all know this... :-)
There is one, actually...
http://geocities.com/kirk_fuh_q_fest/karaoke.html Karaoke and Q
But a short one, I admit. So plenty of room to go :))
Birgit
http://www.syredronning.de/wishlist_2004.html
Hypatia Kosh
> generel. Especially featering the Hermat chiefengineer Burgyone. And
> especially especially Burgyone/Selar and Burgoyne/McHenry and
> Burgoyne/McHenry/Selar.
Yeah, that's a great idea! I actually was rather disappointed with
the first few books being all tease and no, er, skin.
> I'm just reading "Renaissance" in which Selar's gay brother Slon is
> introduced. I wish TPTB would have half of the bravity Peter David has.
> Although Burgy unthankfully is faithful to Selar and don't end up in bed
> with him as Slon tries.
Neat--I think I only read the first eight volumes before I got out
of Trek fandom for a while.
I don't think it's necessarily courage on Peter David's part, though.
He wrote the crappy het "classics" Imzadi I and II (based on canon
het pairings) after which he became a "fan favorite" and now the
suits think he can do no wrong. So his mediocre writing skills have
been stretched all over the place. Sometimes he does okay,
sometimes he is atrocious. (Case in point: DS9 "Antimatter")
(Captain Calhoun is a classic Marty Stu character. I once read a
faq on this, so now I think I'm an expert. Really, though, I read
a description of what a typical Marty Stu is like, and I immediately
thought of Calhoun--not like he isn't loveable and all that.)
Since the world of the books is an offshoot, he's allowed a
certain amount of freedom. Peter David has also successfully
stuck gay references in books before. I suspect Burgoyne 172
was created both because the idea interested him and
because it was of easing into sexual exploration for the suits.
Jeri Taylor, though, had already put gay characters in her
Voyager novels--the gay characters she wasn't allowed to
have on the show. (She had only wanted to put in minor gay
characters, not any of the regulars, but that was too much for
Berman, apparently.) So there is precedent, and it most
certainly does not break the "no slash" rule.
Way back in the TNG days, though, Peter David did slip in a
reference (I think the Q versus Lwaxana book) that Lw. Troi's
first arranged marriage to a fellow Betazoid ended because he
fell in love with another man. So credit where credit is due.
But I do not think there is any "bravery" involved in a mainly
het* writer playing around the edges in his spinoff book
series which the suits are loathe to mess with since there is
high fan interest. (They wouldn't be making 'em if they
weren't selling.) He is not risking his career or anything of
the sort.
*-by this I mean he writes het at the R level or PG-13 with
heavy innuendo
On the other hand, there is cowardice, yes, much cowardice
on the part of Berman and the suits, who won't allow gay
interpretations of the main characters in fiction. (To be fair,
the reading fanbase reacted badly to "Killing Time", but since
they reacted favorably to "Dwellers in the Crucible", it could
just be a matter of Della van Hise REALLY SUCKING.) Worse,
they won't allow gay characters, even minor background ones,
on the show. And in this day and age, that's just sad.
-Hypatia, the rantmeister
T'Len
>ince the world of the books is an offshoot, he's allowed a
>certain amount of freedom. Peter David has also successfully
>stuck gay references in books before. I suspect Burgoyne 172
>was created both because the idea interested him and
>because it was of easing into sexual exploration for the suits.
>Jeri Taylor, though, had already put gay characters in her
>Voyager novels--the gay characters she wasn't allowed to
>have on the show. (She had only wanted to put in minor gay
>characters, not any of the regulars, but that was too much for
>Berman, apparently.) So there is precedent, and it most
>certainly does not break the "no slash" rule.
In which novels? I haven't reed much Voy. I just found a big part of the
series and those few books I had read to sucking. The only other gay
character I know in books are Hawk and his partner in the TNG-Sektion
31-novel.
>But I do not think there is any "bravery" involved in a mainly
>het* writer playing around the edges in his spinoff book
>series which the suits are loathe to mess with since there is
>high fan interest. (They wouldn't be making 'em if they
>weren't selling.) He is not risking his career or anything of
>the sort.")
Maybe I did not find the rigth word to express what I ment. As you know I'm
not a native speaker. In any way I find it remarkable that there is a gay
character inside. Something I still miss in any Trek series. And I'm not
speaking of a regular character (this would be great of course) just a
guest appearance would be a small step in the rigth direction (sorry, I
don't count to kiss between Jadzia and Lenara in, as I considere Trills
naturally bi-sexuell and they only re-kindled an old male-female-passion).
BTW you know that David entertains in the book the theory gay Vulcans don't
have Pon Farr because its a reproduction-drive not a sex-drive? So this
would mean Spock is not gay at all and we forget all the
Pon-Farr-K/S-storys.
T'Len
Hypatia Kosh
> In which novels? I haven't reed much Voy.
The two by Jeri Taylor. Mosaic and the other one. The one about the
crew I read, whereas the one about Janeway I only skimmed.
> I just found a big part of the
> series and those few books I had read to sucking.
I wasn't able to finish any other Voy novels besides Jeri Taylor's.
They are really bad.
> The only other gay
> character I know in books are Hawk and his partner in the TNG-Sektion
> 31-novel.
Ahhh, so he dies a redshirt death in "First Contact," so he's allowed
to be gay. Excuse me if I'm not terribly impressed.
A lot of main female characters of the modern Trek era are lesbian or
bisexual in the Mirrorverse. You know what? Big fucking deal. TPTB are
assholes.
> Maybe I did not find the rigth word to express what I ment. As you
know I'm
> not a native speaker. In any way I find it remarkable that there is
a gay
> character inside.
There were gay supporting characters in many of the early Pocket TOS
novels, if you were paying attention.
They did, however, have a habit of dying before the timeframe of the
novel, or dying in the course of the novel, etc. (These were gay or
bisexual males, not females--not surprising, as straight women wrote
the novels in question.)
David Gerrold tried to get a gay/AIDS-themed script done in the first
season of TNG, and he pushed for that script, too. Roddenberry
refused, however. The issue was not important to him (as it was to
Gerrold, who was watching friends dying) and he didn't want that issue
to jeopardize his precious Star Trek. TNG remained mostly bland and PC
for the 7 years it was on the air. It was smug and self-satisfied, and
unwilling to ask--or answer--difficult questions as TOS had been, in
its unique guerilla way.
> Something I still miss in any Trek series.
Ain't gonna happen.
> (sorry, I
> don't count to kiss between Jadzia and Lenara in, as I considere Trills
> naturally bi-sexuell and they only re-kindled an old
male-female-passion).
I don't count it because it was politically cowardly (they were a het
couple from a previous life) and played for exploitative value only.
In other words, the whole thing was complete bullshit to tag onto a
trend (early '90's Lesbian Chic) and the lie is given to it by the
very different relationship between Winters and Ivanova in B5. (JMS
also established that there was gay marriage in his universe. JMS
often used his show as a way of celebrating human diversity--in
ethnicity, religion, philosophy, temperment, appearance, and sexuality.)
> BTW you know that David entertains in the book the theory gay
Vulcans don't
> have Pon Farr because its a reproduction-drive not a sex-drive? So this
> would mean Spock is not gay at all and we forget all the
> Pon-Farr-K/S-storys.
That's the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time.
Gays don't reproduce?
Excuse me while I go gag.
-Hypatia
PS--An intriguing idea would be that males who do not experience pon
farr for whatever reason are considered "like women" and have a status
like homosexuals on Earth. It would be an issue of sexuality, though
not (necessarily) of sexual preference.
TLin
> Vulcans don't have Pon Farr because its a reproduction-drive not a
> sex-drive? So this would mean Spock is not gay at all and we forget
> all the Pon-Farr-K/S-storys.
>
> T'Len
But then again, that could explain why Spock said to Kirk that he
thought he would be spared the Pon Farr ... he *thought* he was
gay ... in reality, he must have actually been bi, using Kirk as a
substitute for a female when the Pon Farr came <g>
>:-]
T'Lin
T'Lin's FANFIC PAGE - http://www.geocities.com/tlin_s/
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Round XIII coming your way February 14, 2004!
"It can giggle all it wants, but the galaxy's not getting any of our
bourbon!" (Trip, to Reed - "Shuttlepod One")
T'Len
>The two by Jeri Taylor. Mosaic and the other one. The one about the
>crew I read, whereas the one about Janeway I only skimmed.
Thanks. Haven't read them. I think they neve made it to us as msot of
the enwer books and I didn't buy any VOY in the original so far.
>Ahhh, so he dies a redshirt death in "First Contact," so he's allowed
>to be gay. Excuse me if I'm not terribly impressed.
Nor was I. Besides before the movie was released here had been rumors
about a gay character inside. But of there had even been any hint in
the movie it was completely cut off.
>David Gerrold tried to get a gay/AIDS-themed script done in the first
>season of TNG, and he pushed for that script, too. Roddenberry
Yeah, I've read the script in he missing scenes book. Personally I
didn't found it very appealing. In my eyes ST should show a gay
character for whom being gay is just a non-issue as well as for his
friends and collegues. In this future being gay should be normal as
beeing straight, bi or whatsoever. Any coming out/being outed topic is
too much 21 century like. The reaction of Slon's father ("He still
believes that, were it not for my involvement with Solok, my true nature
would have presented itself , and the pon farr urges would have swept me
up in their invitable tide of reproductive drive.") as presented int he
book is also too old-fashioned in my eyes for a ST-novel.
>That's the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time.
>Gays don't reproduce?
>Excuse me while I go gag.
Quote: "I have a lack of interest in reproduction that no amount of
genetic tradition can overcome."
>PS--An intriguing idea would be that males who do not experience pon
>farr for whatever reason are considered "like women" and have a status
>like homosexuals on Earth. It would be an issue of sexuality, though
>not (necessarily) of sexual preference.
Heheh, since I've read the book such a story-idea is popping around my
head.
T'Len
Acidqueen
> Vulcans don't
> > have Pon Farr because its a reproduction-drive not a sex-drive? So
this
> > would mean Spock is not gay at all and we forget all the
> > Pon-Farr-K/S-storys.
>
> That's the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time.
Same here. If it's mainly a biological phenomenon, this statement is
like "lesbians have no menstruation". Or is there any research about
gay salmon not swimming upstream :)? Then I might be able to twist my
mind around that *eg*
> PS--An intriguing idea would be that males who do not experience pon
> farr for whatever reason are considered "like women" and have a
status
> like homosexuals on Earth. It would be an issue of sexuality, though
> not (necessarily) of sexual preference.
That sounds definitely useful as plot. OTOH, do we really want a
society that once again has that deep, closed drawers for sexes
*sigh*?
Birgit, who often writes Vulcan that way, but feels it's time for more
sexually freed Vulcan society stories (anyone using the little bonding
idea, please...?)
Lianne
> > partner in the TNG-Sektion 31-novel.
>
> Ahhh, so he dies a redshirt death in "First Contact," so he's
> allowed to be gay. Excuse me if I'm not terribly impressed.
That is taking the easy way out as far as I'm concerned too.
> A lot of main female characters of the modern Trek era are
> lesbian or bisexual in the Mirrorverse. You know what? Big
> fucking deal. TPTB are assholes.
Ah, but lesbians are sexy. Gay men aren't. Didn't you know?
> > Maybe I did not find the rigth word to express what I ment.
> > As you know I'm not a native speaker. In any way I find it
> > remarkable that there is a gay character inside.
>
> There were gay supporting characters in many of the early Pocket TOS
> novels, if you were paying attention.
There is also Bartholomew Faulwell from the SCE e-novellas (currently
collected into four volumes so far). In the third story (in volume 1
of the paper collections), there's a lovely scene about him writing a
letter home. He always writes it on paper before reading it into a
subspace message to send. Then, when they get together, he gives the
paper versions to Anthony (his partner).
A nice little touch to the character.
Lianne
Farfalla
> He always writes it on paper before reading it into a
> subspace message to send. Then, when they get together, he gives the
> paper versions to Anthony (his partner).
That is so cuuuute! :-)
Alara Rogers
> didn't found it very appealing. In my eyes ST should show a gay
> character for whom being gay is just a non-issue as well as for his
> friends and collegues. In this future being gay should be normal as
> beeing straight, bi or whatsoever. Any coming out/being outed
topic is
> too much 21 century like.
Agreed-- *if* the characters are human.
One common Trek tactic is to project our modern day social issues
onto aliens. So Bajorans can be used to talk about church and state
or science vs religion, even though Earth humans no longer have any
problems like that.
The reaction of Slon's father ("He still
> believes that, were it not for my involvement with Solok, my true
nature
> would have presented itself , and the pon farr urges would have
swept me
> up in their invitable tide of reproductive drive.") as presented
int he
> book is also too old-fashioned in my eyes for a ST-novel.
This didn't bother me at all, because they are Vulcans. Vulcans are
logical about everything *but* sex. When it comes to sex they are
reactionary Victorians. (Spock found it nearly impossible to admit
that he needed to go to Vulcan to get married even though he was
*dying.*)
It does bother me that PAD thinks gay Vulcans would not suffer the
pon farr. In humans, sexual orientation doesn't affect how you think
about sex nearly as much as your gender does. Males, who
stereotypically want sex as frequently as possible and are
supposedly less concerned with emotional connections, often behave
even more that way when gay. Gay male Vulcans should still go
through pon farr - if it's purely reproductive then it can't be
every seven years.
Hypatia Kosh
> --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Hypatia Kosh" <berli@m...> wrote:
> > PS--An intriguing idea would be that males who do not experience pon
> > farr for whatever reason are considered "like women" and have a
> status
> > like homosexuals on Earth. It would be an issue of sexuality, though
> > not (necessarily) of sexual preference.
>
> That sounds definitely useful as plot. OTOH, do we really want a
> society that once again has that deep, closed drawers for sexes
> *sigh*?
I never defined what "a status like homosexuals" is supposed to mean.
Post WWII America (dunno about Europe) is not necessarily the guide
we're talking about here . . .
> Birgit, who often writes Vulcan that way, but feels it's time for more
> sexually freed Vulcan society stories (anyone using the little bonding
> idea, please...?)
Ah! Interesting. Why not? Sure.
For me, the little-bonding seems more like masturbatory fantasy than
anything realistic. Not that I don't enjoy reading such stories, mind
you.
-Hypatia
Hypatia Kosh
A nudge at our friend Jerry? And what is SCE?
> collected into four volumes so far). In the third story (in volume 1
> of the paper collections), there's a lovely scene about him writing a
> letter home. He always writes it on paper before reading it into a
> subspace message to send. Then, when they get together, he gives the
> paper versions to Anthony (his partner).
-Hypatia
Hypatia Kosh
> pon farr. In humans, sexual orientation doesn't affect how you think
> about sex nearly as much as your gender does. Males, who
> stereotypically want sex as frequently as possible and are
> supposedly less concerned with emotional connections, often behave
> even more that way when gay. Gay male Vulcans should still go
> through pon farr - if it's purely reproductive then it can't be
> every seven years.
On Voyager, Tuvok had children who were four years apart. You
would think that Peter David would be aware of this.
However, I did run across something that possibly blows this
theory out of the water. DC Fontana claimed in an interview
that 7 years was the MAXIMUM pon farr interview, and that
Vulcans who lived together would only go a few years between
pon farrs.
Despite the fact that she's an important Trek creator (TOS
and TNG), I'm somewhat reluctant to accept this if only
because "Vulcan's Glory" sucked and was full of ridiculous
situations. Fontana did give us the female Romulan Commander,
but she appears in an episode with plot holes the size of
Jupiter. Fontana can't plot herself out of a paper bag, and
she doesn't seem to reason out her aliens too well either.
Being of a mathematical bent of mind, this overshadows
whatever emotional aspect she attempts to create.
So, in short, I like my own formulation from canon and all
other views are heresy! Boo-yah!
-Hypatia the Hierophant
J. Juls
> From: T'Len [mailto:tl...@freenet.de]
> Nor was I. Besides before the movie was released here had been rumors
> about a gay character inside. But of there had even been any hint in
> the movie it was completely cut off.
>
Didn't B&B actively deny that Hawk was gay? Kinda stupid since he doesn't
do anything in the show except work. I guess because he wasn't wearing high
heels and a boa, they figured he was straight.
Julie
Lianne
>--- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Lianne" <lburwell@a...> wrote:
>> There is also Bartholomew Faulwell from the SCE e-novellas (currently
>
>A nudge at our friend Jerry? And what is SCE?
>
>> collected into four volumes so far). In the third story (in volume 1
>> of the paper collections), there's a lovely scene about him writing a
>> letter home. He always writes it on paper before reading it into a
>> subspace message to send. Then, when they get together, he gives the
>> paper versions to Anthony (his partner).
>
>
>-Hypatia
SCE is the Starfleet Corps of Engineers. The McGyvers of Starfleet. Scotty
now heads it up from Earth.
Basically, it's a series of e-novellas that eventually gets collected into
paperback, 4-5 per book. There are four collections so far.
For more information, try http://www.sff.net/people/krad/sce.htm
(and I thoroughly enjoy the series, although I've stuck to buying the
paperbacks.
Lianne
Selek
| now heads it up from Earth.
|
| Basically, it's a series of e-novellas that eventually gets collected into
| paperback, 4-5 per book. There are four collections so far.
|
| For more information, try http://www.sff.net/people/krad/sce.htm
|
| (and I thoroughly enjoy the series, although I've stuck to buying the
| paperbacks.
|
| Lianne
Yeah, me too, but they're good books!
Selek
___________________
Check out my websites:
Sarek and Amanda Pictures and Links - http://members.shaw.ca/selek
Sarek and Amanda Story Archive - http://members.shaw.ca/pat_w/
Sarek and Amanda Photo Gallery - http://members.shaw.ca/jo_pat/
Ambassador Soval - http://members.shaw.ca/soval/index.html
http://www.starbase-10.de/vld/ (Vulcan Language Dictionary)
T'Len
>Agreed-- *if* the characters are human.
>One common Trek tactic is to project our modern day social issues
>onto aliens. So Bajorans can be used to talk about church and state
>or science vs religion, even though Earth humans no longer have any
>problems like that.
I wouldn't mind at all if it were Bajorans, Klingons, Romulans or who
ever had pre-justice. But I don't like to see intolarate Vulcans. After
all this is the race which invented IDIC so they should act like IDIC.
And I also don't consider it much logical if a father neglects the
nature of his son. Let's say i'm not very happy with the way the Vulcan
race is portrayed lately (especially in ENT) that's not the way I look
on them. For me Vulcans already have overcome allt his little or bigger
faults humans have those days. Liek intolerance, pre-justice etc. Oaky,
i admit that's a very romantic look on them.
T'Len
Alara Rogers
The trouble is it's a completely non-canon look at them.
*Spock* was an exceptional man, and we drew the wrong conclusion
from looking at him. But it was TOS that established that Vulcans
are *very* repressed about sex to the point of being totally
illogical about it, that a man can refuse to talk to his son for 17
years for not following his preferred career choice (it wasn't over
Spock's nature, it was that Spock wanted to go into Starfleet, which
is quasi-military and apparently Sarek had problems with that), that
an extraordinarily powerful Vulcan leader would have no problem
allowing a Vulcan's alien best friend to unwittingly volunteer to
fight his friend to the death at his wedding. This stuff has been in
the canon about Vulcans since 1969 and earlier.
They may have invented IDIC, but hell, we invented Christianity and
the people in America who are loudest about "I'm a Christian, I
worship Jesus Christ!" are the people who least pay attention to the
things Christ most cared about, like loving their neighbors and
being tolerant and helping the poor. Just because the Vulcans came
up with an ideal doesn't mean they'll all follow it.
My problem with ENT Vulcans is that they are too openly warlike (I
always knew Vulcans were *not* the wussy pacifists they're portrayed
as sometimes, given Spock's statement that Vulcans have no cultural
consciousness of what it's like to lose or be conquered, but being
in more or less open conflict with the Andorians was a tad much) and
that ENT has seriously screwed with Vulcan telepathy in a way that
contradicts every other Trek series, including Voyager eps that
Berman and Braga both worked on. However, the fact that they are
arrogant, supercilious, somewhat xenophobic assholes who've allowed
tradition to completely cloud their scientific judgement is stuff
that's either been in the canon since day 1 or which could be
inferred from it (if Vulcans were technologically superior to humans
from the beginning, and have had space travel for 3,000 years, how
come humans dominate Starfleet and the Federation?)
I actually *like* the Vulcans this way, honestly. (I also enjoy
seeing the occasional serious flaws in the Federation, like a horror
of genetic engineering and cloning so severe that a doctor would
participate in murdering her own growing clone and a man who'd been
genetically engineered seriously risked losing his career over it.)
They're much more real. Trek is a near-utopian vision, but the more
small flaws that turn up in it, the more something like it could
realistically happen, and I'd rather have a near-utopia that can be
achieved than a perfect utopia that can never be. And it's highly
unlikely that perfect people would ever have chosen to help out
humanity. It's precisely because the Vulcans are so arrogant they
think they know what's best for everyone that they formed a working
partnership with humans which allowed humanity to put itself back
together and reach out for the stars. A more benevolent, evolved,
free-of-all-negative-emotion-and-tradition race wouldn't have *done*
that. (Notice, the Organians do *nothing* to help anyone unless it's
bothering them on their own home planet.)
Farfalla
> They may have invented IDIC, but hell, we invented Christianity and
> the people in America who are loudest about "I'm a Christian, I
> worship Jesus Christ!" are the people who least pay attention to the
> things Christ most cared about, like loving their neighbors and
> being tolerant and helping the poor. Just because the Vulcans came
> up with an ideal doesn't mean they'll all follow it.
An excellent idea. I've been thinking of expanding my little Vulcanverse that I
explored with Lessons in Infinite Diversity at some point (writing more Saavik/
T'Amaya, writing some T'Pring/Stonn), and this will really help me organize my
thoughts.
~Farfalla
Hypatia Kosh
> *Spock* was an exceptional man, and we drew the wrong conclusion
> from looking at him. But it was TOS that established that Vulcans
> are *very* repressed about sex to the point of being totally
I figured the pon farr thing was shame over the loss of control,
rather than sex per se being the problem. Sex is a problem for
Spock, though, that much is clear. But not, I think, to the degree
it's taken in "Amok Time."
> illogical about it, that a man can refuse to talk to his son for 17
> years for not following his preferred career choice (it wasn't over
> Spock's nature, it was that Spock wanted to go into Starfleet, which
> is quasi-military and apparently Sarek had problems with that), that
> an extraordinarily powerful Vulcan leader would have no problem
> allowing a Vulcan's alien best friend to unwittingly volunteer to
> fight his friend to the death at his wedding. This stuff has been in
> the canon about Vulcans since 1969 and earlier.
Right! You make a good case.
I was thinking myself that many societies that have come up with
great ideas or beautiful philosophies have had some serious
problems themselves. Case in point: "All men are created equal"
but a slave is 3/5 of a person for purposes of proportional
representation (and can't vote).
> My problem with ENT Vulcans is that they are too openly warlike
The ENT Vulcans are idiots, rather than evil geniuses, and that is
the problem in a nutshell.
The fanon Vulcans (drawing from canon--and in fact made canon in
part by "First Contact" and, dare I say it, "Carbon Creek") were out
there traveling the stars observing other cultures. They're also
obsessed with galactic archeology, most of it certainly not their own.
They're watching . . . It's a somewhat ambiguous state; they claim
to be scientists, there is a positive aspect to their recordmaking,
yet it can also seem sinister.
ENT Vulcans are klutzes, though. They hid their facility behind a
fucking curtain. Puleeeeze!!
> However, the fact that they are
> arrogant, supercilious, somewhat xenophobic assholes who've allowed
Somewhat xenophobic I buy completely. But in ENT their dislike of
non-Vulcans is taken to irrational lengths. Again, stupid.
> tradition to completely cloud their scientific judgement is stuff
> that's either been in the canon since day 1 or which could be
> inferred from it (if Vulcans were technologically superior to humans
> from the beginning, and have had space travel for 3,000 years, how
> come humans dominate Starfleet and the Federation?)
Where does the 3,000 figure come from? I always thought it was
1,000 years ago that Surak lived and the Romulans left, and they
only had sublight drive.
> I actually *like* the Vulcans this way, honestly. (I also enjoy
> seeing the occasional serious flaws in the Federation, like a horror
> of genetic engineering and cloning so severe that a doctor would
> participate in murdering her own growing clone and a man who'd been
> genetically engineered seriously risked losing his career over it.)
> They're much more real.
Yeah, I find such things interesting, instead of the perfect people,
perfect universe of TNG. Too antiseptic and too smug.
Though I don't think that flaws in the utopia make it any more
plausible. I don't think it's close to plausible.
> It's precisely because the Vulcans are so arrogant they
> think they know what's best for everyone that they formed a working
> partnership with humans which allowed humanity to put itself back
> together and reach out for the stars. A more benevolent, evolved,
> free-of-all-negative-emotion-and-tradition race wouldn't have *done*
> that.
Yes! So true!
-Hypatia Kosh
czb (Chris)
> I've sort of avoided Kira het because it doesn't do what I want it
> to
I'm curious--and not at all trying to be facetious here--what *would*
you like it to do? Are you able to say, or is this more a case of "I'll
know it when I see it"? Since I'm always looking for new and different
directions to take these characters in, I'd love to know what you
*would* like to see in a Kira hetfic.
> but I have to say I wasn't too impressed with Shakaar or Bareil
> either. Okay, so Kira worshipped Shakaar back when. But now?
> Bleh. I chalk it up to temporary insanity. But Shakaar was better
> than Bareil. Maybe it's the sensitive boy syndrome, and who knows,
> maybe she thought he was cute (whatever). I mean, he's this
> wimpy cleric, whereas she's an ass-kicking pragmatist, despite
> certain political affinities.
Kira/Bareil, to my mind, is the perfect example of a relationship that
probably looked great on paper when the show's writers dreamed it up
(union of opposites, yin-and-yang, etc.), but failed miserably in the
execution on-screen. I know that Philip Anglim is a good actor (years
ago, he did a televised stage version of "The Elephant Man" that was
just amazing). But in DS9, his character came across as so wooden it was
almost creepy. There's a scene in "The Circle" where he quizzes Kira
about her recent orb-vision in a way that almost comes across as some
bizarre clerical form of stalking. Ick.
And I agree that he never seemed to have the necessary heroic spirit to
be a true match for Kira.
Shakaar, meanwhile, was just so blandly handsome and nondescript he
almost registered as the male version of a bimbo (himbo?). That's not
totally fair, perhaps--but by the time Shakaar appeared, the O/K
unrequited thing had already been dragged out so much that the character
might as well have been wearing a T-shirt reading "artificially created
plot roadblock." Ironically, some of his best moments I think were in
"Crossfire" where he confides to Odo that he loves Kira.
> To be perfectly honest, Kirk/Dukat is more interesting than
> either of those pairings, although from a canon POV I can't see
> that interaction going beyond what we saw on the show.
I can definitely see the canonical sparks that motivate Kira/Dukat
fanfic. The episodes that pair them up tend to make them into a sort of
Hepburn-and-Tracy love/hate item. And Dukat *is* sexy (in his own
special, oily way :-). But the idea of Kira bedding him, let alone
falling for him romantically, just doesn't work for me on all sorts of
levels. I find it rather disturbing, actually. Of course, this may be
the very factor that makes it interesting for some writers.
I think that through much of the series, the DS9 writers made the
mistake of channeling all of Kira's emotions through the filter of her
political passions. Everything she feels is written in relation to her
feelings about Bajor. These influential Bajoran men that she beds are,
on some level, supposed to symbolize her passion for Bajor itself. But
that's just too limited and calculated an approach to work very well as
drama. Kira is a fierce nationalist--but after seeing all that she's
seen, I think her patriotism would become jaded after a while.
> Kira is sort of Kirk-like. There are even some similarities in their
> backstories. They share a mixture of practicalism and idealism,
> though they have different strengths militarily because of the
> kinds of wars they've fought. They both suffer a lot. They are
> both interesting in the way in which there is little differentiation
> in the way they treat males and females. They're different in
> that Kirk throws himself around sexually. He uses his body to
> get what he wants, whereas Kira is more cut off. She can seem
> rather stiff-backed at times. This may be in part due to the
> sexism of the men writing her character--even the worldly Dax
> doesn't seem to get much tail until she marries (geez!) Worf.
Agreed. That's a very good summary of her character. :-)
Chris
czb (Chris)
> My problem with ENT Vulcans is that they are too openly warlike (I
> always knew Vulcans were *not* the wussy pacifists they're portrayed
> as sometimes, given Spock's statement that Vulcans have no cultural
> consciousness of what it's like to lose or be conquered, but being
> in more or less open conflict with the Andorians was a tad much) and
> that ENT has seriously screwed with Vulcan telepathy in a way that
> contradicts every other Trek series, including Voyager eps that
> Berman and Braga both worked on. However, the fact that they are
> arrogant, supercilious, somewhat xenophobic assholes who've allowed
> tradition to completely cloud their scientific judgement is stuff
> that's either been in the canon since day 1 or which could be
> inferred from it (if Vulcans were technologically superior to humans
> from the beginning, and have had space travel for 3,000 years, how
> come humans dominate Starfleet and the Federation?)
I agree with much of what you say here, but I'd like to add that I have
a problem with the Vulcans being portrayed as *monolithically* arrogant,
supercilious, and xenophobic assholes, which is the way ENT tends to
portray them (or did, before I quit watching). I also have a problem
with the fact that virtually everything they do is shown--or rather,
assumed--to be stupid and wrong (as opposed to the forthright actions of
the virtuous humans). When Archer self-righteously exposes the fact that
they are spying on the Andorians, for example, (oh, how
shocking--they're using a monastery as a cover), it never seems to occur
to anyone that maybe the Andorians are a legitimate threat and that the
Vulcans have good reason to keep an eye on them. (Has Archer *never*
heard of covert operations?) No one asks the Vulcans about their
reasons; they're assumed to be just bad and hypocritical. End of story.
It also grates on me that Berman and Braga think they're being all
cutting-edge and revolutionary by portraying the Vulcans as sinister
rather than benevolent. What would be really cutting edge would be to
grant a little complexity to them as a race. Sheesh, if DS9 could do
this with the damn Ferengi, it shouldn't be that hard to accomplish with
the Vulcans and their rich history within the Trek canon.
Chris
Hypatia Kosh
> --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Hypatia Kosh" <berli@m...> wrote:
> > > --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "T'Len" <tlen2@f...> wrote:
> > > *Spock* was an exceptional man, and we drew the wrong conclusion
> > > from looking at him. But it was TOS that established that Vulcans
> > > are *very* repressed about sex to the point of being totally
> >
> > I figured the pon farr thing was shame over the loss of control,
> > rather than sex per se being the problem.
>
> uptight about a normal body function, and most of the cultures on
> Earth that are sexually repressed do so because of
> very "illogical", "unscientific" things like religion.
>
> However, what Spock seems to be ashamed of is having his
> logic "stripped from" him... as he puts it.
There is a sense, though, in which he seems to think that engaging in
sexual relations whenever he feels like it is illogical and unvulcan,
even though he is fighting his own impulses very strongly. For a human
this would be a bit silly (I think the ancients were right about moderation
in all things) but for Vulcans maybe not--according to Spock, at least,
their passions are much stronger, and those passions tore their
civilization apart. Thus they go to an extreme of control, which makes
them seem prudish.
-Hypatia
Farfalla
> > --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "T'Len" <tlen2@f...> wrote:
> > *Spock* was an exceptional man, and we drew the wrong conclusion
> > from looking at him. But it was TOS that established that Vulcans
> > are *very* repressed about sex to the point of being totally
>
> I figured the pon farr thing was shame over the loss of control,
> rather than sex per se being the problem.
That was my interpretation. There is no logical reason to be so
uptight about a normal body function, and most of the cultures on
Earth that are sexually repressed do so because of
very "illogical", "unscientific" things like religion.
However, what Spock seems to be ashamed of is having his
logic "stripped from" him... as he puts it.
~Farf
Hypatia Kosh
> Hypatia wrote:
>
> > I've sort of avoided Kira het because it doesn't do what I want it
> > to
>
> I'm curious--and not at all trying to be facetious here--what *would*
> you like it to do? Are you able to say, or is this more a case of "I'll
> know it when I see it"? Since I'm always looking for new and different
> directions to take these characters in, I'd love to know what you
> *would* like to see in a Kira hetfic.
Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again--I want to see Kira with a
younger man (attractive, naturally--think bishounen plaything) where
she is the dominant party in the relationship. I'm not really interested
in hetfic where she becomes wimparific just because she has a MAN.
Whatever!
I don't mind Odo/Kira. They seem more of an equal pairing, they
have an interesting set of political affinities and disagreements
and they do seem to like each other. Odo/Kira I see more like a
longtime partnership, whereas my Kirk/boytoy thing is more of
a short-term affair thing.
> Kira/Bareil, to my mind, is the perfect example of a relationship that
> probably looked great on paper when the show's writers dreamed it up
> (union of opposites, yin-and-yang, etc.), but failed miserably in the
> execution on-screen. I know that Philip Anglim is a good actor (years
> ago, he did a televised stage version of "The Elephant Man" that was
> just amazing). But in DS9, his character came across as so wooden it was
Yeah! He was totally wooden. It was a shame. Maybe he just seemed
wooden compared to Kai Winn. Winn struck me as a case of overacting
in her first appearances. She got better over time (except for that
pagh wraith nonsense at the end).
> almost creepy. There's a scene in "The Circle" where he quizzes Kira
> about her recent orb-vision in a way that almost comes across as some
> bizarre clerical form of stalking. Ick.
I think I blanked that out. :)
> And I agree that he never seemed to have the necessary heroic spirit to
> be a true match for Kira.
Right.
> Shakaar, meanwhile, was just so blandly handsome and nondescript he
> almost registered as the male version of a bimbo (himbo?).
Dude, you are so right. I don't quite know about the himbo thing, but
he was horribly nondescript. He made a great politician, though. Had
the blow-dried look down pat.
> That's not
> totally fair, perhaps--but by the time Shakaar appeared, the O/K
> unrequited thing had already been dragged out so much that the character
> might as well have been wearing a T-shirt reading "artificially created
> plot roadblock."
True. I missed a year or two of DS9 during my B5 obsession and
was totally shocked when I saw that Odo and Kira were finally
together, for real.
> > To be perfectly honest, Kirk/Dukat is more interesting than
> > either of those pairings, although from a canon POV I can't see
> > that interaction going beyond what we saw on the show.
>
> I can definitely see the canonical sparks that motivate Kira/Dukat
> fanfic. The episodes that pair them up tend to make them into a sort of
> Hepburn-and-Tracy love/hate item. And Dukat *is* sexy (in his own
> special, oily way :-). But the idea of Kira bedding him, let alone
> falling for him romantically, just doesn't work for me on all sorts of
> levels. I find it rather disturbing, actually. Of course, this may be
> the very factor that makes it interesting for some writers.
Agree again. Wow, I spent all yesterday flaming people on usenet,
yet you and I seem to be quite on the same wavelength here. Weird.
> Kira is a fierce nationalist--but after seeing all that she's
> seen, I think her patriotism would become jaded after a while.
Don't we see signs of that as the series goes on? Like her attempt
to become an artist after that religious leader tells everyone to
return to their ancestral castes, or near the end of the series
where she begins to question whether fighting and fighting has
accomplished anything.
Though that is a frustration with Trek, that the characters are a
bit static. B5 was great because the characters changed over time,
like real people. (Most tv, though, falls into the static trap because
tptb fear changing the formula that makes a show popular.)
-Hypatia
Hypatia Kosh
> this with the damn Ferengi, it shouldn't be that hard to accomplish with
> the Vulcans and their rich history within the Trek canon.
Silly, complexity and nuance are Braga's bane. He can't even keep
track of HIS OWN storylines.
http://hypatia.slashcity.org/trekshack/braga.html
-Hypatia
Farfalla
> >
> > ;-)
>
> Hehe.
>
> Hm. I have actually written a Kirk/boytoy scene in a German bdsm
> story. Bad luck for you...
Bad luck?
Oh, that it's in German. Well, she can read German... can't she? Sort
of?
Farfalla
> Odo/Kira I see more like a
> longtime partnership, whereas my Kirk/boytoy thing is more of
> a short-term affair thing.
Kirk/boytoy?
;-)
Your fingers betray you, Dark One.
Acidqueen
Hehe.
Hm. I have actually written a Kirk/boytoy scene in a German bdsm
story. Bad luck for you...
Birgit, back in Nuremberg for her project
*sigh*theresnoplacelikehome*sigh*
Acidqueen
> Bad luck?
>
> Oh, that it's in German. Well, she can read German... can't she?
Sort of?
yeah, sorry, it was a collective "bad luck" note...I am obviously a
bit confused - and watching Catspaw here for the first time doesn't
solve the confusion *g****
Birgit, grinning over that weird ep
Hypatia Kosh
> > Bad luck?
> >
> > Oh, that it's in German. Well, she can read German... can't she?
> Sort of?
>
> yeah, sorry, it was a collective "bad luck" note...I am obviously a
> bit confused - and watching Catspaw here for the first time doesn't
> solve the confusion *g****
>
> Birgit, grinning over that weird ep
Well, you would have to understand American Halloween culture!
-Hy
Farfalla
> > --- In ASC...@yahoogroups.com, "Farfalla" <blueberrysnail@y...> wrote:
> > > Bad luck?
> > >
> > > Oh, that it's in German. Well, she can read German... can't she?
> > Sort of?
> >
> > yeah, sorry, it was a collective "bad luck" note...I am obviously a
> > bit confused - and watching Catspaw here for the first time doesn't
> > solve the confusion *g****
> >
> > Birgit, grinning over that weird ep
>
> Well, you would have to understand American Halloween culture!
Don't worry, Birgit--Spock doesn't really get it either ;-)
Acidqueen
Hy, a standard German cannot escape American Halloween culture to a
certain degree, since there is the Simpson Special and the Roseanne
Special, and probably a dozen other series specials I already forgot
about, flooding our TV channels ;)
Birgit, who thinks that it's all about selling stuff - at my time,
there was no Halloween here, but the kids seem to get used to it now
Acidqueen
Hy, a standard German cannot escape American Halloween culture to a
certain degree, since there is the Simpson Special and the Roseanne
Special, and probably a dozen other series specials I already forgot
about, flooding our TV channels ;)
Birgit, who thinks that it's all about selling stuff - at my time,
there was no Halloween here, but the kids seem to get used to it now