Spock & Chapel as friends
gamin...@my-deja.com
In article <200007222357_...@compuserve.com>,
J S Cavalcante <10276...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> I don't see the rationale for this assertion at all. What about
Leila?
> What about Zarabeth? Those are canon! He never responded to
Christine.
Yes, they are canon. Doesn't mean I *have* to be able to
visualize Spock with any of them long-term. And I explain that in some
of my stories. After all, Leila essentially tricked Spock into
responding to her and clearly had no concern for possible physical
effects of the spores on him--she wouldn't be ready at all, IMO, for
dealing with the Vulcan side of his nature. And Zarabeth lied to him
in an effort to get him to stay in Sarpeidon's past with her. Neither
IMO great bases for a long-term relationship.
Christine, at least, has been honest with Spock and not tried to
deceive him. And he DID respond to her occasionally--ref. "Amok
Time", "The Naked Time" (he was at least "responsive" enough to be
uncomfortable) and "Plato's Stepchildren" (the line about
having "failed" her), et al. Free advice: don't start me on this,
because you're not going to win or change my mind, however long you
hammer at me. Christine, to me, just makes sense as a love interest
for him, and none of the others do. Period.
> I would agree with you here. You can't just ignore Kirk and Spock's
> friendship.
Well, yes, and that's probably the *only* point of agreement we're
going to have on S/Ch. <g>
> LOL--Where is it, on the back of a cocktail napkin? Sorry, I forget
that
> some writers don't compose on the computer.
Yes...you see, I don't fully trust computers or disks, so I'll type
things up on my typewriter first then really procrastinate on getting
them on disk--that way, I know I always have a hard copy somewhere,
even if the disk gets wiped. ;^)
> Um, forgive me, but since you don't write erotica, why post it to
ASCEM?
(1) somebody recommended that I do it to get more feedback and (2)
the item that I was trying to post was just general information on when
I was going to post what stories, which I thought *might* be of
interest to *somebody* on ASCEM, since there's so much overlap in the
readership. Also, I just wanted to see if I could do it.
> What about Christine makes her a good match? When I used to try to
dream
> up S/Cha scenarios, I always had to spackle *a lot* to convince
myself she
> would even be marginally acceptable. Not because of any character
flaw on
> her part, but because Spock was pretty definite about the fact that he
> didn't want her.
Well, as I indicated above, you're sort of overlooking a few *small*
reactions on Spock's part that might indicate otherwise. I made a
detailed case for S/Ch on Veronica Williams' Writers and Writing
website in response to her question about why we like the pairings we
like, but I'll see if I can do a short version here (ha) (not
responsible for wasted bandwidth, folks--he *made* me do this! <g>).
First and foremost, he and Christine work together--not both on
the Bridge, but on the same ship. They have similar interests--
science, Starfleet, etc. and he does have considerable occasion to
interact with her. (Neither Zarabeth nor Leila share that with him;
sure, Leila is supposed to be a scientist--but what kind of scientist
exposes somebody to alien spores without bothering to check for
possible adverse side-effects when she knows the person she's planning
to use them on has a different physiology from hers? But I
digress...)
Secondly, Christine, as I said above, is the only woman he's had
any opportunity to be around who hasn't spurned, mistreated or just
plain tricked him for her own ends. If he *were* going to "fall in
love" with anybody, she seems the most likely candidate to me since he
already knows she loves him. Thirdly, they share a basic character
trait: compassion for life. Essentially, she has a basic respect for
him that the other women ultimately didn't seem to have, and respect
would count a lot with Spock.
Anyway, for a more detailed and sensible analysis, go to that
website (whose URL escapes me at the moment, but I can look it up if
Veronica herself doesn't respond to this)--I'm feeling a bit rushed
right now.
> Well <LOL>, I don't care what other people's views on it are. I only
care
> what I think about it, and I won't know that till I've read your
story.
> And I think, if you'll forgive this observation, that you read your
own
> notices too much. You shouldn't care what anybody else thinks on the
> subject, either. Yeah, you want to entertain the readers. But
*really*,
> aren't you writing first for you?
Yes, but not *exclusively* for me--otherwise there would be no
reason for me to post stories or submit them for fanzines.
> Nor should you care. That is something the reader *must* do for
herself,
> and you're not involved in that part of the creative cycle. While
they're
> off making up their own interpretations, you should be writing the
next
> thing.
Er, that's what I meant by "I can't be responsible" for it.
> Well, you know I think that this scenario could never quite get up to
> realistic. You spoke earlier of Spock being too honorable to have an
> affair. This would be an affair--of the mind, of the heart--even if
it's
> not quite sexual.
Well, I don't necessarily agree there. Just because he thinks
about Kirk and spends time with him doesn't mean he can't do the same
for Christine--it doesn't make it an "affair", any more than thinking
of/being with friends in RL would be "affair" to my husband. As far as
it being "realistic", you know how *I* feel--if done right, it can be
and has been--but then I see more potential in Christine than a lot of
people.
> Whoever gave you that description didn't do it justice, then. They
are
> beautiful K&S friendship stories, and beautifully written. It's a
skinny
> little zine, too--can't cost *that* much. The characterizations are
SO
> excellent that the stories give me that "This is Real Trek" frisson
up the
> spine. They ring really true.
Mmm, I clearly don't remember the description correctly. That's
another I might be able to get somewhere. As for not costing very
much, we have to watch every dime around here and I scarcely get the
chance to buy *any* zines these days (too much debt to pay off). But I
might rethink that if I get the chance.
> LOL--well, I have some (R&Rs) and they *are* explicit. But they
don't contain any
> slash, because editor Johanna Cantor just couldn't buy that premise.
> Although there is a terrific 3-part story called *Scotty's Ceilidh*
by a
> K/S author that has a little *hint* in it--but that is a humor piece,
and
> to my recollection, was not an R-rated story.
Well, let's just say I chose the better part of valor due to the
unlikelihood of there being anything in such a zine I'd be likely to
enjoy. I steer clear of stories with sex scenes in them, be they het
*or* slash--it's just not to my taste.
> Okay, those are--for anyone who's listening and cares to know--those
are
> hurt/comfort zines. Gamin, those are *exactly* what I call K/S
wannabe.
Well, you may call them that, but the vast majority of stories
published in all those zines are IMO NOT slash or anything approaching
it. CONTACT comes the closest, and I've only had problems with maybe 3
pieces in the entire run of the zine. Certainly no such thing was ever
published in VAULT or MIND-MELD, because I have every issue of both.
Hurt/comfort, yes--because I enjoy that sub-genre--but K/S wannabe?
Not IMO, not except for those I mentioned.
> To see what I mean, you need to read Leslie Fish's "The End of the
> Hurt-Comfort Scenario." I think Mary Ellen has added it to the
> Foresmutters Project. To my recollection, it is NOT an explicit
story in
> any way, Gamin. But I can check for you if you like.
Pass. I read ONE Leslie Fish story and it put me off her work for
all time. In fact, it was "Poses"--the earliest and only K/S piece I
ever read all the way through up until I started reading these NGs.
> Have you read Jane Land's novels--Kista and Demeter?
Mm, no--had them described to me, though; I was warned off the
former and had the latter recommended to me by someone who knows my
tastes in S/Ch.
> Wait--you're reading ASCEM. What's the problem with stories rated
over
> R???
For the umpty-third time--I read this NG for the *conversations*,
not the fan-fic, although I sometimes make exceptions if something
catches my interest. As I said above, I just don't generally like that
type of fan-fic.
> (Re: VULCAN'S HEART) Icky, yucky, yucky! And stupid. She was
supposed to be his ward.
Oh, agreed--and I said so at the time he posted the announcement of
the thing. I didn't fail to miss that one when it came out. <g>
> Why should we care what his explanation might be? I've seen the story
Because I was curious. I would like to know *why* certain things
are not even considered, because I see no sense to *not* considering
them, and I get tired of just speculating.
> guidelines. They are stupid and adolescent. I fail to see the
problem
> with publishing the whole spectrum of fiction that's out there. I
don't
> know why there is censorship anywhere, and I think the whole country
should
> GROW UP! In other words, if they don't want to read something, don't
read
> it, and don't come yelling to us about it. LOL--Sorry, that comment
about
> P*ck*t seems to have pushed a button somewhere.
Obviously. (And I won't go there, because I suspect I lean toward
the other side on this matter--although I still can't understand what
they're doing at Pocket Books. Actually, I gave up trying to figure
them out a while back.)
> You didn't *read* it? Let me get this straight. You're on this list
which
> has "erotica" in the title even though you can't abide anything rated
R or
> higher. You don't like slash, and most of the list is slash. You
like
> S/Christine. A FINE writer posts a beautiful, short, PG- or even G-
rated,
> S/Christine story to the list--and you didn't *read* it? Can you
> understand my utter confusion? "Amicus Usque ad Aras" was the
title. What
> are you waiting for?
I don't have time to read EVERYTHING posted, J.S., or everything
*somebody else* thinks I *ought* to read. I did see it posted, but I
looked at the rating and opted not to try. Another thing you have to
bear in mind is that my servers suck rocks, and most of the stories
posted are halfway through before I even *see* them. I can't see much
point on starting on something in part 5 of 11 or whatever and trying
to figure out what came first. Also, a minor point, but stories with
titles in non-English put me off because I don't like the feeling that
I have to read the whole thing before I figure out what it means.
> OK, will take a look. Thanks.
Much faster than waiting for me to get it on disk, and BTW, that may
or may not be the final version. See, I got no constructive comments
at all regarding any changes that might need to be made--just something
from one person saying that they liked it as is, which sort of makes me
not want to mess with it. It's already been pretty heavily edited and
rewritten...but so had "Darkness", and everybody who responded seemed
to think that that still sucked. So I haven't decided yet.
Gamin
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gamin...@my-deja.com
In article <3.0.5.32.2000072...@popd.ix.netcom.com>,
"T'Rhys" <tgkn...@netcom.com> wrote:
> The FAQ says ASCEM welcomes all ST fanfic, not just erotica. Please
don't
> give her a reason to stop posting to ASCEM. Gamin, I've heard that
deja and
> other web news services sometimes reject crossposts that are being
sent to
> more than one similarly-named ng in the same post; does this happen
when
> posting two messages, one to each group exclusively?
As far as posting the same message separately to each NG, no, I
hadn't tried that yet, so I don't know. Also, I normally post from my
newsreader because it lets me initiate posts and Deja won't--IOW, I
wasn't posting it from Deja--so the only website involved would be my
ISP or its servers. And again, my servers suck, so they could be at
fault.
Kathryn Robair
gamin...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I'm simply trying to make the point that it was unusual/out of
> character for Spock to take Miramanee's head in his lap and that
> Christine *might* have thought so, regardless of the fact that she gave
> no evidence of it.
>
I guess my biggest problem with that line of thought is that your analysis
makes Christine look like an insecure twit. Coming from someone who claims
to be a S/Cha fan, it seems a little off base. I just don't see Chapel as
an irrationally petty individual.
>
>
> > Kath, who's really enjoying this exchange
>
> Oh, you mean in a sort of feeding-frenzy kind of way? Yes, I
> suppose it's amusing to treat people posing new ideas like they're
> idiots and then see how they respond. Sorry if this was meant
> sincerely, but I'm afraid your initial post is still too fresh in my
> mind for me to think of any other way to take this.
> Gamin, always happy to keep the circling sharks entertained
>
>
Jeez. Sorry I interrupted your self-pity-fest. I guess your not used to
having your opinions and beliefs challenged.
> Kath
a. h. vericker
> J S Cavalcante wrote:
> > I don't see the rationale for this assertion at all. What about
> Leila?
> > What about Zarabeth? Those are canon! He never responded to
> Christine.
I tend to agree on this. I think Leila or Zarabeth could have made Spock
happy if he had chosen one of them for a mate. (not that I'd want him too
<g> to me Kirk is
the one for him) But I see them as more of a possibility than Christine.
Just my opinion though.
Gamin wrote:
> Yes, they are canon. Doesn't mean I *have* to be able to
> visualize Spock with any of them long-term. And I explain that in some
> of my stories.
Agreed. Just as many people don't *see* K/S. We all
have our own view of them. For me, no woman could bring Kirk true happiness,
not for long. That was obvious even in the series and movies....
After all, Leila essentially tricked Spock into
> responding to her and clearly had no concern for possible physical
> effects of the spores on him--she wouldn't be ready at all, IMO, for
> dealing with the Vulcan side of his nature. And Zarabeth lied to him
> in an effort to get him to stay in Sarpeidon's past with her.
Hmmm. I disagree about Leila. Remember, she and Spock *knew* one another
before. And she was under
the influence of the spores when she turned Spock on to them. She was *not*
in her normal state of mind till the end of the EP. Then she saw clearly
what she had done and what the spores had done. Spock was quite taken with
her even *after* the spores wore off....and she still wanted him just as he
was....
As for Zarabeth, yes, she lied to keep Spock with her. But she was not a
mean person...just a lonely one, as Spock was, and he understood that and
was not angry at all. At the end of the EP he was truly torn about leaving
her...
He showed real feelings in the series for these women,
that might have included sex based on what they let us interpret, so that is
why it's easier for me to see them with Spock....I never got the impression
he felt anything for Christine. I think he felt sorry for her in Amok Time;
and in Naked Times he was more shocked at her admission of love. Like it
never occurred to him, and then once the virus took affect he was
embarrassed by his own emotions. (Of course at the end of NT it was only
Kirk he was concerned with as he walked on to the bridge <g>) lol,lol
We all have our opinions. Gamin, I respect yours. I just thought I'd join in
on the discussion...
Helen
J S Cavalcante
You make a plausible case for Christine and against Leila and Zarabeth.
Message text written by Gamin
> Free advice: don't start me on this,
because you're not going to win or change my mind, however long you
hammer at me. Christine, to me, just makes sense as a love interest
for him, and none of the others do. Period.<
Um, Gamin, I wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind. It wouldn't
occur to me.
I was just trying to understand for myself where you were coming from.
LL&P
J S Cavalcante
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Gamin Davis
On 25 Jul 2000, av...@prodigy.net (a. h. vericker) was caught saying
<006f01bff643$af8601a0$1d3a...@0309547097222763.asceml.newsposter> in
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated to anyone with the patience to
listen:
>Hmmm. I disagree about Leila. Remember, she and Spock *knew* one another
>before. And she was under
>the influence of the spores when she turned Spock on to them. She was
>*not* in her normal state of mind till the end of the EP. Then she saw
>clearly what she had done and what the spores had done. Spock was quite
>taken with her even *after* the spores wore off....and she still wanted
>him just as he was....
Sorry, I didn't see that at all. I think he felt sorry for *her*
after the spores wore off; so did I, in a way, since she didn't seem to
have had much of a life outside plotting how to get Spock back. We will
never know how deeply the spores affected her, but I believe they can't
affect a person's basic, core personality and beliefs, which is why I don't
think Spock ever had sex with her and why I think she was probably a
scheming little so-and-so. Her previous relationship with Spock--if they
really had one, since she says herself it was one-sided--IMO means nothing.
>As for Zarabeth, yes, she lied to keep Spock with her. But she was not a
>mean person...just a lonely one, as Spock was, and he understood that
>and was not angry at all. At the end of the EP he was truly torn about
>leaving her...
He got over it. And I figure Christine could have those same feelings
of loneliness in the wake of losing Roger Korby, thus the same thing in
common with Spock. (And I wrote a story about *that*, too; in that one,
he thought back on it and *became* not angry, but hurt, and it also dealt
with what Christine must have felt after finding out about it and how he
had to mend fences with her.)
>He showed real feelings in the series for these women,
>that might have included sex based on what they let us interpret, so
>that is why it's easier for me to see them with Spock....I never got the
>impression he felt anything for Christine. I think he felt sorry for her
>in Amok Time; and in Naked Times he was more shocked at her admission of
>love.
No, I can't see his behavior toward her in "Amok Time" as pity, and it
was something *other or in addition to* shock that IMO he showed toward her
in "Naked Time". As for "real feelings", I think with Spock the deepest
feelings may be the ones he has the most trouble expressing--but we're
clearly seeing two different versions of the characters, so...(like I said,
don't start me--I am dead set again Leila and Zarabeth as choices for him.
So much so that I can actually see the slash thing with Kirk as being *far*
more likely, if that gives you any indication. ;^D <BG>)
Like it never occurred to him, and then once the virus took affect
Sure it never occurred to him--the only experience with women he'd had
by that time was with T'Pring, and I think we're all agreed that *she*
certainly didn't *love* him, so it literally may not have crossed his mind
that a woman could love him. It doesn't mean he wasn't also *considering*
it at that point (well, *I* think he was, anyway) as a newly-broached
possibility.
>he was embarrassed by his own emotions. (Of course at the end of NT it
>was only Kirk he was concerned with as he walked on to the bridge <g>)
>lol,lol
This is true. Of course, Christine wasn't there...<g> <not that I
think he would have been paying a lot of attention to her with being
worried about Kirk the way he was>
We all have our opinions. Gamin, I respect yours. I just thought
>I'd join in on the discussion...
And you're quite welcome to do so. As long as we both know neither of
us is likely to change the other's mind. <g>
Gamin
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Gamin Davis
On 25 Jul 2000, k...@vais.net (Kathryn Robair) was caught saying
<3.0.6.32.2000072...@mail.earthlink.net> in
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated to anyone with the patience to
listen:
>I guess my biggest problem with that line of thought is that your
>analysis makes Christine look like an insecure twit. Coming from
>someone who claims to be a S/Cha fan, it seems a little off base. I
>just don't see Chapel as an irrationally petty individual.
Hmm? I don't think I said *anything* to imply "irrationality" of any
type. I was just *speculating* on something she might have thought but not
said. If I meant to imply "irrational pettiness", I would have suggested
that she not only thought it but told Spock off about it right there in the
middle of her and McCoy's efforts to treat Kirk and Miramanee.
>Jeez. Sorry I interrupted your self-pity-fest. I guess your not used
>to having your opinions and beliefs challenged.
As if. My opinions are challenged every time I post, regardless of
how innocently they're intended. I'm truly sorry if you were sincerely
enjoying the debate, but that's not the impression I had gotten up to that
point. Considering the posts I've gotten over the last month, I feel
myself fully justified in being defensive. It's not the *challenges* that
bother me. It's the *vindictive, angry tone* of most of them. You'd think
I just committed murder rather than simply expressing a differing
viewpoint.
Gamin
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a. h. vericker
Gamin wrote:
> clearly seeing two different versions of the characters, so...(like I
said,
> don't start me--I am dead set again Leila and Zarabeth as choices for him.
> So much so that I can actually see the slash thing with Kirk as being
*far*
> more likely, if that gives you any indication. ;^D <BG>)
You won't get an arguememt from me <G> But then I don't see Spock with
anyone besides Kirk so that's no surprise. But still, Christine would not be
my choice if Spock did choose a female mate. (parrish the thought)
So here we must agree to disagree;-)
Helen
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J S Cavalcante
>You won't get an arguememt from me <G> But then I don't see Spock with
anyone besides Kirk so that's no surprise. But still, Christine would not
be
my choice if Spock did choose a female mate. (parrish the thought)
So here we must agree to disagree;-)
Helen<
LOL. I am with you on this, Helen.
JS
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Greywolf the Wanderer
> From: Kathryn Robair <k...@vais.net>
>
> gamin...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I'm simply trying to make the point that it was unusual/out of
> > character for Spock to take Miramanee's head in his lap and that
> > Christine *might* have thought so, regardless of the fact that she gave no
> evidence of it.
>
> I guess my biggest problem with that line of thought is that your analysis
> makes Christine look like an insecure twit. Coming from someone who claims
> to be a S/Cha fan, it seems a little off base. I just don't see Chapel as
> an irrationally petty individual.
>
> > > Kath, who's really enjoying this exchange
> >
> > Oh, you mean in a sort of feeding-frenzy kind of way? Yes, I
> > suppose it's amusing to treat people posing new ideas like they're
> > idiots and then see how they respond. Sorry if this was meant
> > sincerely, but I'm afraid your initial post is still too fresh in my
> > mind for me to think of any other way to take this.
> > Gamin, always happy to keep the circling sharks entertained
>
> Jeez. Sorry I interrupted your self-pity-fest. I guess your not used to
> having your opinions and beliefs challenged.
LOL!!! Got it in one, Kath! IMHO, Gamin just enjoys whining. Not much ye can
do with that. <shrug> Wotthefuck, it's a free country I guess. Seems like a
pretty fucked up attitude to me but whatever floats her boat. Still cracks me
up that someone who hates erotica posts and reads here. Gen stories are as
welcome here as any other kind, likewise het, there's lots here that do enjoy
both. But to keep on sticking one's nose in the air and claim moral
superiority -- ghee, yuck, phooey.
> > Kath
Greywolf, more amused at this point than annoyed
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Gilda Felt
> Message text written by INTERNET:ASC...@egroups.com
> >You won't get an arguememt from me <G> But then I don't see Spock
with
> anyone besides Kirk so that's no surprise. But still, Christine
would not
> be
> my choice if Spock did choose a female mate. (parrish the thought)
> So here we must agree to disagree;-)
>
> Helen<
>
> LOL. I am with you on this, Helen.
>
> JS
I'll third that.
Gilda
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a. h. vericker
----- Original Message -----
From: Gilda Felt <gild...@uswest.net>
To: <ASC...@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 9:12 AM
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Spock & Chapel as friends
> > >You won't get an arguememt from me <G> But then I don't see Spock
> with
> > anyone besides Kirk so that's no surprise. But still, Christine
> would not
> > be
> > my choice if Spock did choose a female mate. (perish the thought)
> > So here we must agree to disagree;-)
> > Helen<
> > LOL. I am with you on this, Helen.
> > JS
> I'll third that....
> Gilda
I *knew* I was not alone....
Helen
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Kathryn Robair
Gamin Davis wrote:
> Hmm? I don't think I said *anything* to imply "irrationality" of any
> type. I was just *speculating* on something she might have thought but not
> said. If I meant to imply "irrational pettiness", I would have suggested
> that she not only thought it but told Spock off about it right there in the
> middle of her and McCoy's efforts to treat Kirk and Miramanee.
>
If she chose to berate Spock instead of assisting a severly/terminally injured
patient, that would not be "irrationally petty" as much as it would be
"criminally negligent", no doubt an offense worthy of court martial. That
scenario, IMHO, is totally over the top.
>
> Considering the posts I've gotten over the last month, I feel
> myself fully justified in being defensive.
Not my fault, don't burden me with it.
Kath
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