An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
ASCEM
Subject:
An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
Date:
Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:48:09 -0800
From:
Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net>
Organization:
Furverts Anonymous
To:
as...@earthlink.net
This has been rattling around in my head for a while; I think I'm ready
to toss it out for inspection.
Quite some time ago, Macedon, I think it was, commented on asc that
slash was very different from gay fiction. At the time, I was
surprised, since most of the gay fic I've found on usenet is pretty much
sleaze <with a few very yummy exceptions, of course>
Then TJ started posting Unicorn <yum -- a definite Stiffie!>, and lately
there's been a couple others -- the one with Sisko and Li Nalas comes to
mind -- that *did* fit more into the gayfic line.
And that's when I realized what the difference is. I've been part of a
bonded pair for damn near 20 years, now. It's been *ages* since I made
The Scene at all, or went out on the Hunt of a nice summer night.
The difference is this -- as far as I can tell, for many slashers,
including me, the concept we work from is that, whatever tensions or
fears there may be between two characters, the concept of a same-sex
pair is not one of them. By this I mean, that we don't tend to see the
subculture, as it is in *our* day and age. The little hand signals
<thank you TJ, for reminding me of these things>, the unspoken ballet we
use to pick each other out and confirm our intentions... You don't see
that in most slash. Even when I have tension between K & S, it is not
from the fact of homosexuality, but rather one man's fears that the
other one does not share his feelings. Especially since JTK does have
this habit of fucking anything female he can get his paws on ;-)>
Another factor, I would guess, is how much slash is written by women,
who presumably are not as familiar with the existence of these unspoken
signals <apologies to any I am wrong about here>. In Judygran's stuff,
for instance, while the Fleet in the person of Nogura strongly
disapproves of the K/S relationship, it seems to be more because he
thinks they are bonded, than because they are both male. And as she has
written it, that is a valid concern, even though the man is also an
asshole. That's his job. He has to be.
For my own stuff, I hope, and like to think, that by the 23rd century we
would have grown up at least a *little* bit. Given the concept of peace
on earth and all that, it seems to me that anti-gay prejudice would by
then be a thing only encountered waaaaay out in the boonies. Certainly
in the Fleet, with its emphasis on tolerance and so on, with its
prohibition of any kind of xenophobe, I like to think that same-sex
pairings, as long as they didn't violate, say, the officer/enlisted
rule, or the rule against harrassment/stalking, would be tolerated as
much as het-sex pairings. Standards of conduct still apply, of course
-- like Ruth pointed out, one has one's quarters for that sort of thing
;-)>
But I really do hope that by then, that would be the *only* concern.
And so I do not use those signals, between my Boys... In fact, as one
who is mated, I have enjoyed and felt very lucky that I do not need to
Hunt any more. Or fear every little sniffle or illness might be It. As
I said, I had pretty much forgotten this aspect of reality -- although
at times I still find myself ogling a tasty young stranger and looking
for The Signs. Which is funny as hell, since we are monogamous and
always have been. Old habits die hard, I guess.
It makes me very sad that so many of us are still trapped in *this*
day's world, with its prejudices and paranoia -- and the fact that
paranoia, for gay/les/bi or trans, is all too often a survival value.
Dammit, it shouldn't have to be that way!
My 2 slips of latinum... Comments and arguments very welcome, y'all...
Greywolf the Wanderer, who is eagerly hoping he gets Gianni Versace's
gorgeous pictorial, "Men Without Ties" for Solstice this year <and
probably will> Mmm, mm, *tasty*!!
--
Posting to ASCEM is easy--just send your messages to as...@earthlink.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe to the mirror list--and for all other
list-related inquiries, write to asc...@aol.com
ASCEM
From:
Ruth Gifford <eres...@cyberg8t.com>
Subject:
Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:50:45 -0800, Greywolf the Wanderer
grey...@snowcrest.net wrote:
<Some snipping occurs here>
<<This has been rattling around in my head for a while; I think I'm ready
to toss it out for inspection.>>
<<Then TJ started posting Unicorn <yum -- a definite Stiffie!>, and lately
there's been a couple others -- the one with Sisko and Li Nalas comes to
mind -- that *did* fit more into the gayfic line.>>
TJ's a guy, right? And who wrote the Sisko/Li Nalas one, R.J.? Now I
don't know about TJ, but I don know that R.J. is a PLU (People or Person
Like Us -- slang for queer). So it would make sense that their fic would
read more like gayfic. And to be quite honest, I'll say that The Reverend's
f/f doesn't read much like the lesbian fic I've read. I still like it, but
there's something different. Now I happen to know that my own stuff reads
like a lot of the leatherdyke stuff I read (on a bad day like Artemis
Oakgrove, on a good day -- I hope -- like Kitty Tsui). It's kinky, but
it's also very touchy feelie, and the guys talk about their feelings more
than men do in the gay male fic that I've read. I do it because, once you
force it out of him, I think Picard would be likely to talk about his
feelings and Q isn't really a Human male. If I were writing C/P, I'd have
Chak be talky, but not Tom.
<<The difference is this -- as far as I can tell, for many slashers,
including me, the concept we work from is that, whatever tensions or
fears there may be between two characters, the concept of a same-sex
pair is not one of them. >>
I've noticed that sometimes there's a "I've never done this with a man
before" tension, but that's usually the extent of it. You also get the
occasional h/c story where the hurt is rape and so there's that tension,
but that's about it.
<<By this I mean, that we don't tend to see the
subculture, as it is in *our* day and age. The little hand signals
<thank you TJ, for reminding me of these things>, the unspoken ballet we
use to pick each other out and confirm our intentions... You don't see
that in most slash. >>
So often our slash seems to be about people who are basically straight
falling in love with someone of the same sex. Sometimes we assume that
they're bi, but since we usually have evidence that they're at least
attracted to members of the opposite sex, we don't think of them as being
gay. Therefor, it follows that they wouldn't be a part of the subculture,
however it exists (if it exists) in the future.
<<Another factor, I would guess, is how much slash is written by women,
who presumably are not as familiar with the existence of these unspoken
signals <apologies to any I am wrong about here>. >>
This could be a big part of it. For instance I know the "hanky code" (a
code using bandanna type hankies to indicate sexual preferences -- for more
go to http://www.halcyon.com/elf/hankies.html) because it's no longer
strictly a gay male thing but is used in the S/M community as well. And I
know what the placement of one's keys mean (right means bottom, left means
top), but there are lots of subtleties I don't know.
<<For my own stuff, I hope, and like to think, that by the 23rd century we
would have grown up at least a *little* bit. Given the concept of peace
on earth and all that, it seems to me that anti-gay prejudice would by
then be a thing only encountered waaaaay out in the boonies. >>
I think we all like to think that; Goddess knows *I* do. Having read slash
for other fandoms (mainly X-Files and Sentinel), I can say the whole gay
issue gets dealt with more often in that slash than it does in Trek slash.
That's not to say that all the slashers who slash in a "modern-era" show
deal with AIDS, homophobia and other gay issues, but some of them do.
<<But I really do hope that by then, that would be the *only* concern.>>
Amen!!!
<<As
I said, I had pretty much forgotten this aspect of reality -- although
at times I still find myself ogling a tasty young stranger and looking
for The Signs. Which is funny as hell, since we are monogamous and
always have been. Old habits die hard, I guess.>>
Hey, just because you're in a monogamous partnership doesn't mean you can't
*look.* atara and I are monogamous and the only rule we have about looking
is that, if we're together, we have to point the person out to our Other.
It's only fair and courteous, after all. ;-)
<<Greywolf the Wanderer, who is eagerly hoping he gets Gianni Versace's
gorgeous pictorial, "Men Without Ties" for Solstice this year <and
probably will> Mmm, mm, *tasty*!!>>
Oooo! What fun! I got Mapplethorpe's "Some Women" last year. It was
worth every penny she spent on it for the pic of Sigourney Weaver alone.
:-)
Ruth
hoping for more additions to the toy box this year. Speaking of my toy
box, Greywolf, where’s my stasis box?
__________________________________________________________________________
ASCEM
To:
<as...@earthlink.net>
From:
rak...@aol.com (Raku2u)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:
Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
>>For my own stuff, I hope, and like to think, that by the 23rd century
>we
>>would have grown up at least a *little* bit. Given the concept of
>peace
>>on earth and all that, it seems to me that anti-gay prejudice would by
>>then be a thing only encountered waaaaay out in the boonies.
>
>Greywolf,
>Thanks for raising this point. It's one that I've always felt to be
>implicit in Star Trek -- even if TPTB are still not willing to address
it
>directly, WE know it to be so.
>
>I think that this is why I found it so jarring when the troll over on
>ASC announced that Kirk and Spock were not gay. Actually, I think it
would
>be more accurate to say that I thought it was a non sequitur. In other
>words: No, Kirk and Spock are not gay; nor are they straight. They
are two
>men of a more rational era, who are capable of enjoying a physical and
>emotional (sorry about that, Spock) relationship in which gender has no
>particular relevance.
>
>
I think many/most of us would agree with Carol and Greywolf, that the
23rd
century (hey! maybe even the 21st!) will be more enlightened and
labels will
not matter--people will pick the people they want (who of course will
reciprocate their feelings, and life
will have No Problems).
The challenge for us as writers is to make this believable while
still leaving room for dramatic tension, plot tension, etc. If the
story's
tension doesn't revolve around someone "deciding he's gay," e.g., then
we still
need tension about something or the
story's flat.
I think this question is related to the thread about alien sex that
kicked up a
while back. In the abstract, it's perfectly possible to allow that
Cardassians
or Vulcans or the Trill have sexual practices so different we can't even
imagine them, but then it's hard to write about them, and even harder
to be
interested in a story in which
sexual activities resemble, ah, toothbrushing. Where's the fun?
So when we're struggling with notions of sexual choice and
who's gay/straight/bi, the story's frame still needs to be familiar
enough that
it's interesting to late 20th cent. folks, who are for
various reasons good and bad *awfully* interested in the question.
Someone wrote a good revenge piece on this a few weeks back,
with K and S arriving and saying essentially "What is *with* you
people?" To
those 300 years from now, our obsessions will
look pretty silly...
raku
--------------
mail me at rak...@aol.com
--------------
ASCEM
Date:
Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:06:34 -0800 (PST)
From:
Ariana <ari...@rocketmail.com>
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
Another mail for Anne and Alexas to contend with... sorry for adding
to the backlog!
> Subject:
> An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
> Date:
> Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:48:09 -0800
> From:
> Greywolf the Wanderer <grey...@snowcrest.net>
> Organization:
> Furverts Anonymous
> To:
> as...@earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
> This has been rattling around in my head for a while; I think I'm
> ready to toss it out for inspection.
>
<snip>
> The difference is this -- as far as I can tell, for many slashers,
> including me, the concept we work from is that, whatever tensions or
> fears there may be between two characters, the concept of a same-sex
> pair is not one of them.
What strikes me in slash stories is that it doesn't ever seem to occur
to writers that some characters might be *straight* through and
through. It's not that I have a problem with slash stories (hey, I
wrote the Sisko/Dukat, remember? ;), but I find it interesting that
people assume Paris, or Kim, or Chakotay would have no problems at all
hopping into bed with another man. I'm not talking about *moral*
problems, but just personal problems.
Let me qualify this - I think most of us will agree that the Star Trek
universe is past gay-bashing and such, and that homosexual relations
per se would not be a problem. However, even in a totally free
society, there will be people left who are thoroughly heterosexual.
What happens if Garak makes a pass at Bashir and Bashir has to say
"I'm sorry, I just don't fancy men"?
This is just something I've noticed, not something we have to do
anything about, of course. But it occurred to me that when writing a
new pairing -- Katany's *beautiful* Dukat/Damar, "Nightwatch" comes to
mind -- the sexual orientation question gets answered. But after a
while, once the idea of G/B, P/Q, P/K, whatever, has caught on,
authors behave as if it is *obvious* that Bashir would fancy Garak or
that Kim is bi.
Greywolf was talking about signals, which are necessary in the present
context of gay underculture (hopefully becoming less "under" all the
time!). Signals would still be necessary, though no longer secret,
just as they are in het romances. As Odo asks Bashir in "A Simple
Investigation" -- "How did you know she was interested?". Our lads and
lasses would still need to know if the object of their desire is
interested in them that way.
Having said that, this only applies to "serious" stories -- most
TrekSmut is of the opinion anyone will do anything anywhere, and long
may it continue!
Hmmm... I think there was a point to this when I started... lost my HD
on my home computer... part of my mind may have crashed with it... :)
Ariana
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ariane
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
ASCEM
From:
Aleph Press <al...@netcom.com>
Subject:
An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
To:
as...@earthlink.net
Date:
Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:01:33 -0800 (PST)
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Path: aleph
From: al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press)
Subject: Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:47:16 GMT
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: From:
: Ariana <ari...@rocketmail.com>
: What strikes me in slash stories is that it doesn't ever seem to occur
: to writers that some characters might be *straight* through and
: through. It's not that I have a problem with slash stories (hey, I
: wrote the Sisko/Dukat, remember? ;), but I find it interesting that
: people assume Paris, or Kim, or Chakotay would have no problems at all
: hopping into bed with another man. I'm not talking about *moral*
: problems, but just personal problems.
Slash seems to take place ina universe where gender simply doesn't
matter. Which is actually one of my problems with it. I enjoy the
utopian
notion that gender really makes no difference at all, but i don't
believe
it. I have read so many "Avon gets kidnapped and sold into sexual
slavery" stories in B7, and I think all of them overlook the fact that,
as attractive as heterosexual women may find him, Avon's just not going
to be that big a draw for ,men in general, because most prefer women or
prettyboys. (note that I'm not talking about rape in prison stories,
which I don't buy at all in the Trek context-- that is, so-and-so,
usually Tom Paris, was raped in a Feddie prison-- but that makes
perfect
sense anywhere else. I'm talking about "kidnapped and sold to a
brothel"
stories.)
On slashpoint, I once called myself the loyal opposition. I enjoy
reading
slash. It's a fun game to play, finding the UST in the emotional
tension.
But, to me at least, it's very rarely "real." My one successful slash
story paired a human Q (a character I cannot believe would not be
bisexual) with an invented gay character. My one Treksmut tale
featuring
two established characters turned one of them into a woman and had them
go to bed before the other knew who he/she really was. I *want* to
write
slash, because I want to join the party and I know many people would
get
a lot of pleasure out of it if I did it. But I think my really
fundamnetal problem is I just don't buy it.
Of course, there are ways and means. I *could* take Garak/Bashir
seriously. Garak is obviously gay, and Bashir strikes me as a sexual
adventurer wanna-be who wouldn't be offended by an overture from a man
(he'd probably consider the Cardassian part weirder than the man part.)
But I usually have a really hard time believing in P/Q, because as much
as I believe that Q has a strong emotional desire for Picard, which
could
translate into sexual desire if Q ewanted it to, I can't see Picard
ever
choosing to reciprocate in that way. And hell, I'm *writing* a P/Q
story.
It's just really hard, when everyone else is gleefully dancing on
tables
with the lampshades on their heads, to feel like the party pooper who's
stuck with grim reality, but that's how I feel. Most people are
primarily
attracted to one sex or the other. There are many bisexuals, and many
more people with the potential to be bi (one of my friends called
herself
"straight, though maybe I have a few bi tendencies since I have a crush
on this actress" when I first met her, and now she;'s a thoroughly out
lesbian.) But it's the very openness of the Trek universe that makes me
feel like these people really wouldn't get involved with the same sex,
because there's no social opprobrium, or any reason not to do it other
than "I just don't go for that sex", and yet no one does do it. I don't
know. Maybe it's really that I don't understand straightness-- as a
bisexual, I can only extrapolate that "straight" means "I really am not
attracted to the same sex," it's not something I can emotionally
understand, and so maybe I'm underestimating the ability of straights
to
be sexually adventurous.
Anyway, this is part of why I write so little smut-- figuring out how
to
do it. (I have been trying to slash Magneto and Xavier for *years* and
still haven't gotten them to do so much as kiss without mind control
involved. P and Q I'm doing a little better on. I got them to go
dancing.) because I can read and enjoy slash, but I don't really quite
believe in it-- and I can't write what I can't believe.
Is there any advice anyone can offer me that would help? I guess
probably
most slashers wouldn't understand this-- they're probably used to the
"I
don't get slash, it's sick and why would you want to do it?" attitude,
but I've never before seen someone say "I love slash but I don't
believe
in it for one minute, can you help me to believe?" Clap your hands and
maybe Alara will believe that Picard could love Q? :-) But does anyone
know what I'm talking about? Has anyone been here, and gotten over it?
(How I Leanred To Stop Worrying And Love To Slash, anyone? :-))
--
No sig today. Sig tomorrow. There's always a sig tomorrow.
Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com
All Aleph Press stories are at http://www.mindspring.com/~alara/ajer.
ASCEM
Subject:
Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:02:02 -0500 To:
<as...@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1
>>For my own stuff, I hope, and like to think, that by the 23rd century
>we
>>would have grown up at least a *little* bit. Given the concept of
>peace
>>on earth and all that, it seems to me that anti-gay prejudice would by
>>then be a thing only encountered waaaaay out in the boonies.
>
>Greywolf,
>Thanks for raising this point. It's one that I've always felt to be
>implicit in Star Trek -- even if TPTB are still not willing to address it
>directly, WE know it to be so.
>
>I think that this is why I found it so jarring when the troll over on
>ASC announced that Kirk and Spock were not gay. Actually, I think it would
raku
--
ASCEM
Subject:
Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
Date:
From:
"R.J." <rj...@capital.net>
To:
as...@earthlink.net
References:
1
Amy commented...
> Definitely some major food for thought here. I've been pondering some of
> the differences between "gay" and "slash" fiction -- the biggest
> difference, I think, is that the latter is written mostly by women and
> these people (obviously) cannot experience gay culture "first hand."
> (that is, not equipped with a you-know-what.) But another question for you
> -- do you think there are differences between "gay" and "slash" fiction in
> other fan fictions, such as the x-files, or highlander, which are set in
> the repressed 1990s?
>
>
I think the phrasing here confuses the issues of gay cultrue and gay
sex. Obviously a woman couldn't have first hand experience of m/m sex,
but that's a much different thing than experiencing gay culture, which
I'd like to think has more to it than sex (particularly at this point in
history, where sex isn't the sole driving force of the gay community).
That said, certainly in the 24th century, we hope anyway,there won't be
anything considered odd about gay people (or bi people or two self
identified straight people having a same sex relationship). So, I don't
think "gay culture" comes into trek slash, unless its set in a time
travel type of story.
As to slash in contemporary series, I think it depends on charecters.
For example, I don't think that Duncan or Methos or Nick Knight and
LaCroix would have that much feelings about same sex realtionships
because of their age and experience to so many human cultures over the
ages. The Sentinel,OTOH, or (one of the shows I've written slash in) ER
are different situations. When, I wrote my ER stories, I brought the
considerations of the attitude towards gay people right in (then again
the catalyst for the story was a teenager beaten to death by his father
for being gay, so there was no way to avoid it).
--
--The preceding sent from R.J. Faas by means of a Powerbook 1400cs--
I want peace on earth and goodwill towards men...
We're the US government, we don't do that sort of thing.
--quoted from the movie "Sneakers" --
http://www.capital.net/users/rjs1
ASCEM
From:
Ruth Gifford <eres...@cyberg8t.com>
Subject:
Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:33:50 GMT,Aleph Press <al...@netcom.com> wrote:
>: From:
>: Ariana <ari...@rocketmail.com>
>
>: What strikes me in slash stories is that it doesn't ever seem to occur
>: to writers that some characters might be *straight* through and
>: through. It's not that I have a problem with slash stories (hey, I
>: wrote the Sisko/Dukat, remember? ;), but I find it interesting that
>: people assume Paris, or Kim, or Chakotay would have no problems at all
>: hopping into bed with another man. I'm not talking about *moral*
>: problems, but just personal problems.
>
>Slash seems to take place ina universe where gender simply doesn't
>matter. Which is actually one of my problems with it. I enjoy the
>utopian notion that gender really makes no difference at all, but i don't
>believe it.
I don't think that all slash really takes place in a universe where gender
doesn't matter. We can write about someone who's always thought of
themselves as straight and then falls for another man, and he can have
various problems with it regardless of what his *society* says about
homosexuality. If you think your sexuality is defined in a certain way and
then you meet *that* certain person who's not the gender you prefer, I can
imagine it would be a shock.
>I have read so many "Avon gets kidnapped and sold into sexual
>slavery" stories in B7, and I think all of them overlook the fact that,
>as attractive as heterosexual women may find him, Avon's just not going
>to be that big a draw for ,men in general, because most prefer women or
>prettyboys.
Uh, Alara? I think you're stereotyping here. There are a *lot* a gay men
who don't like prettyboys, just liket here are straight men who don't like
Barbie dolls. Frankly, I have *no* idea what Avon looks like, but if he's
at all good looking, he'd get customers in that brothel.
>(note that I'm not talking about rape in prison stories,
>which I don't buy at all in the Trek context-- that is, so-and-so,
>usually Tom Paris, was raped in a Feddie prison-- but that makes
>perfect sense anywhere else. I'm talking about "kidnapped and sold
>to a brothel" stories.)
Although I adore Emma's stories (among others) I agree that it's pretty
unlikely that that sort of thing goes on in Federation prisons. AFAIK, the
Tom-was-raped-in-prison idea originated with Brenda Antrim (in a het
story).
>On slashpoint, I once called myself the loyal opposition. I enjoy
>reading slash. It's a fun game to play, finding the UST in the emotional
>tension. But, to me at least, it's very rarely "real." My one successful slash
>story paired a human Q (a character I cannot believe would not be
>bisexual) with an invented gay character. My one Treksmut tale
>featuring two established characters turned one of them into a woman
>and had them go to bed before the other knew who he/she really was.
What, you don't consider "the Night They Drove the Borg Down" to be
TrekSmut? I figure that you've written two TrekSmut tales, that one and
"Familiar Strangers." and both are arguably slash (but that's a subject for
another day).
>I *want* to write slash, because I want to join the party and I know many
>people would get a lot of pleasure out of it if I did it. But I think my really
>fundamnetal problem is I just don't buy it.
The trick here is to do (if you can) what atara did. She usually agrees
that she doesn't think P & Q would have a physical relationship, hence
"Qstruck." But because she wanted to write some TrekSmut, she said, "well
if they *did* I think it would be like this." She's still not sure that
she buys the premise of her P/Q "U2" stories or "His Beloved Pet" (which we
wrote together), and "The Collar" but I, for one, am damn glad she looked
at it differently.
>Of course, there are ways and means. I *could* take Garak/Bashir
>seriously. Garak is obviously gay, and Bashir strikes me as a sexual
>adventurer wanna-be who wouldn't be offended by an overture from a man
>(he'd probably consider the Cardassian part weirder than the man part.)
I can agree with that. Ever since "Past Prologue" (first Garak ep,
right??) i've been convinced that Garak's a screaming queen and even Andrew
Robinson has been heard to say the good tailor would go for "anything that
moves."
>But I usually have a really hard time believing in P/Q, because as much
>as I believe that Q has a strong emotional desire for Picard, which
>could translate into sexual desire if Q ewanted it to, I can't see Picard
>ever choosing to reciprocate in that way. And hell, I'm *writing* a P/Q
>story.
OK, I know you don't buy Picard as a sub. But why don't you see him as
possibly being bi? Even Patrick is willing to conceed the possibility.
:-) I've said before that I think that, for Picard, the big barrier
wouldn't be Q's gender but the simple fact that it's *Q*.
>It's just really hard, when everyone else is gleefully dancing on
>tables with the lampshades on their heads, to feel like the party
>pooper who's stuck with grim reality, but that's how I feel. Most people
>are primarily attracted to one sex or the other. There are many bisexuals,
>and many more people with the potential to be bi (one of my friends called
>herself "straight, but I may have a few bi tendencies since I have a crush
>on this actress" when I first met her, and now she;'s a thoroughly out
>lesbian.)
Gee, that wouldn't be anyone I might . . . oh be married to, now would it?
[Brief digression to explain: my wife atara, always thought she was
straight until she fell big time for Sigourney Weaver, and then shortly
thereafter we fell in love.]
>But it's the very openness of the Trek universe that makes me
>feel like these people really wouldn't get involved with the same sex,
>because there's no social opprobrium, or any reason not to do it other
>than "I just don't go for that sex", and yet no one does do it. I don't
>know. Maybe it's really that I don't understand straightness-- as a
>bisexual, I can only extrapolate that "straight" means "I really am not
>attracted to the same sex," it's not something I can emotionally
>understand, and so maybe I'm underestimating the ability of straights
>to be sexually adventurous.
It looks to me like you're taking canon as *Canon.* For all we know some
of the chracters might be bi, but we just *aren't* going to see it on Star
Trek unless there's some goofy explanation like being a Trill. Also a lot
of people who think ofthemselves as straight, still admit to the occasional
bit of what the personals call "bi-curious." So it might follow that, in a
society where there's no social opprobrium to homosexuality or bisexuality,
people might act on that urge more than they do now. I'm not going with
that old "everyone is really bi" line, because I don't believe it. I
personally think that people's sexuality falls not into one of three
categories (straight, gay, or bi) but on a continuum (not *the* Continuum
:-) ) that can shift with where a person is in their life.
>
>Anyway, this is part of why I write so little smut-- figuring out how
>to do it. (I have been trying to slash Magneto and Xavier for *years* and
>still haven't gotten them to do so much as kiss without mind control
>involved. P and Q I'm doing a little better on. I got them to go
>dancing.)
Frankly, I have more problem with them dacing that I do with them fucking,
but that's me. :-)
>because I can read and enjoy slash, but I don't really quite
>believe in it-- and I can't write what I can't believe.
And you can only believe in *one* possibility?
>Is there any advice anyone can offer me that would help?
Yup. Try playing with different dynamics. Tell youself that for Story A
and Story A alone, "I believe Dynamic X." Look at the relationship through
the lens of Dynamic X. That's what I did when I literally wrote two
stories just to get them to the break-up story.
I can think of a lot of different P/Q dyanmics: yes they'd fuck like
bunnies and live happily ever after, yes bunnies but not happily ever
after, no bunnies and no happily ever after, ixnay on the bunnies but
happiness anyway . . . And then there's the question who wants who more?
Does Picard want Q, but thinks that the supposedly "advanced" entity
wouldn't be interested? Does Q want Picard but thinks that the supposedly
straight and narrow Human can't rise above his own image of himself. Do
they want each other but refuse to admit it? Does Picard, who's probably
been chased a few time in his life, know damn well what Q wants, while Q is
clueless? Is Picard ignoring some pretty blatant signals because he can't
believe that they're for real? And so on . . .
As an example, "His Beloved Pet" started out simply because I wanted to
write Q as Picard's lover, but with more of a cynical, cruel edge. I felt
I'd lost the edge in "My Fair Jeanne," so the idea of Q deliberately
setting Pciard up for a fall came to mind. I was just playing with another
dynamic. Nice thing about P & Q is that there are a lot of possibilies.
>I guess probably most slashers wouldn't understand this-- they're probably
>used to the "I don't get slash, it's sick and why would you want to do it?"
>attitude, but I've never before seen someone say "I love slash but I don't
>believe in it for one minute, can you help me to believe?" Clap your hands and
>maybe Alara will believe that Picard could love Q? :-)
I don't always know that I *believe* in it 100% either. Picard obviously
*loves* women and admires them a great deal (you can tell even with women
he doesn't sleep with or love in *that* way). Why should he fall in love
with Q, who's ostensibly a man, and an asshole to boot? Why should Q, a
possibly genderless entity want to have sex with a Human?
But , IMO, what you need to try if you really want to write slash is to
think outside the idea that there is only one true way to look at a
character or pair of characters.
Ruth
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ASCEM
Date:
Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:40:32 +1000
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
From:
Robin Lawrie <Rob...@s054.aone.net.au>
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay
Fiction
Ariana writes:
<snipped>
>
>Let me qualify this - I think most of us will agree that the Star Trek
>universe is past gay-bashing and such, and that homosexual relations
>per se would not be a problem. However, even in a totally free
>society, there will be people left who are thoroughly heterosexual.
>What happens if Garak makes a pass at Bashir and Bashir has to say
>"I'm sorry, I just don't fancy men"?
>
Oooooh! I think you just kick started my brain. Goody.
<snipped>
>Having said that, this only applies to "serious" stories -- most
>TrekSmut is of the opinion anyone will do anything anywhere, and long
>may it continue!
>
Ahem. We'll see about that. Cam's been on at me for some more Garak.
<very
big smutty smile> I think I can accommodate him now.
>Hmmm... I think there was a point to this when I started... lost my HD
>on my home computer... part of my mind may have crashed with it... :)
>
Unlucky. Hope you didn't lose too much essential slash. As for your mind
crashing? If these are the kind of ideas that hit you afterwards, you
must
consider crashing more often. Thanks for the thoughts.
Robin
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ASCEM
Subject:
Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:18:11 GMT
From:
al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press)
Organization:
Netcom On-Line Services
To:
alt-startrek-creati...@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups:
alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated
References:
1 , 2
: From:
: Ruth Gifford <eres...@cyberg8t.com>
: Subject:
: Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
: On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:33:50 GMT,Aleph Press <al...@netcom.com> wrote:
: >Slash seems to take place ina universe where gender simply doesn't
: >matter. Which is actually one of my problems with it. I enjoy the
: >utopian notion that gender really makes no difference at all, but i don't
: >believe it.
: I don't think that all slash really takes place in a universe where gender
: doesn't matter. We can write about someone who's always thought of
: themselves as straight and then falls for another man, and he can have
: various problems with it regardless of what his *society* says about
: homosexuality. If you think your sexuality is defined in a certain way and
: then you meet *that* certain person who's not the gender you prefer, I can
: imagine it would be a shock.
Yes, it would be! But often, that isn't even addressed in slash. I read a
lot of Blake's 7 slash, a good bit of slash in TrekSmut, and because
Picard/Q is (in fanzines) a rare, specialty item, I have read many
stories in fandoms I'm not into, such as Pros, because if I own a zine
for the P/Q story I'll eventually read the whole zine. And most of the
time, the issue does not come up. Now, in Trek or B7, maybe this makes
some sense, because maybe those futuristic societies just don't classify
sexuality the way we do. But when Pros stories don't even make a nod to
the fact that Bodie and Doyle are both men, and therefore either gay/bi
or should have at least a moment of "hey, I'm straight, why do I want to
get into my partner's pants so bad?", it makes me think that most slash--
not all slash, but most-- does indeed take place in some sort of utopian
alternate universe where no one notices the gender of their partner.
: >I have read so many "Avon gets kidnapped and sold into sexual
: >slavery" stories in B7, and I think all of them overlook the fact that,
: >as attractive as heterosexual women may find him, Avon's just not going
: >to be that big a draw for ,men in general, because most prefer women or
: >prettyboys.
: Uh, Alara? I think you're stereotyping here. There are a *lot* a gay men
: who don't like prettyboys, just liket here are straight men who don't like
: Barbie dolls. Frankly, I have *no* idea what Avon looks like, but if he's
: at all good looking, he'd get customers in that brothel.
It's not that he gets customers. It's that every character in the story
is sexually obsessed with him, because the writer is. In a society where
there was no social opprobrium on homosexuality, I could see a much
higher percentage of the male population being potentially interested in
men, and yes, I do know that not all gay men like prettyboys (hell, my
gay roommate brings home people that are in my opinion dogs, and
genuinely thinks these guys are attractive.) But by making *everyone*
interested in this guy (who, IMO, has the same kind of looks as JDL--
he's much shorter, with darker hair and a brilliant smile, but he's
basically a guy with a character-filled, big-nosed face that isn't
conventionally attractive, but the character is so compelling that
everyone ends up lusting after him), it seems to me that the writer is
confusing her lust for the character with what would be realistic for
most men to feel, even in a society where there was no stigma on
homosexuality.
: >(note that I'm not talking about rape in prison stories,
: >which I don't buy at all in the Trek context-- that is, so-and-so,
: >usually Tom Paris, was raped in a Feddie prison-- but that makes
: >perfect sense anywhere else. I'm talking about "kidnapped and sold
: >to a brothel" stories.)
: Although I adore Emma's stories (among others) I agree that it's pretty
: unlikely that that sort of thing goes on in Federation prisons. AFAIK, the
: Tom-was-raped-in-prison idea originated with Brenda Antrim (in a het
: story).
I love Emma's stuff too, I've just got to suspend disbelief to buy it.
I've done a lot o research on prison rape. It's preventable, if a society
wants to invest in preventing it.
: >On slashpoint, I once called myself the loyal opposition. I enjoy
: >reading slash. It's a fun game to play, finding the UST in the emotional
: >tension. But, to me at least, it's very rarely "real." My one successful
slash
: >story paired a human Q (a character I cannot believe would not be
: >bisexual) with an invented gay character. My one Treksmut tale
: >featuring two established characters turned one of them into a woman
: >and had them go to bed before the other knew who he/she really was.
: What, you don't consider "the Night They Drove the Borg Down" to be
: TrekSmut?
Yes, but it is not a Treksmut tale featuring two established characters.
One of the characters is established, and one is an invented character
that I fell in love with and decided to give a little bit of happiness.
:-) (Harry is about as far from a Mary Sue as they get, but he is my
character, not canon's.)
I figure that you've written two TrekSmut tales, that one and
: "Familiar Strangers." and both are arguably slash (but that's a subject for
: another day).
I agree that they are both TrekSmut. So far I'm not sure FS is slash. If
Picard has sex with Q now that he knows who she is, it will be slash,
IMO. (And I have acquired a co-author with very strong opinions on that,
so yeah, it's gonna be slash. :-))
: >I *want* to write slash, because I want to join the party and I know many
: >people would get a lot of pleasure out of it if I did it. But I think my
really
: >fundamnetal problem is I just don't buy it.
: The trick here is to do (if you can) what atara did. She usually agrees
: that she doesn't think P & Q would have a physical relationship, hence
: "Qstruck." But because she wanted to write some TrekSmut, she said, "well
: if they *did* I think it would be like this." She's still not sure that
: she buys the premise of her P/Q "U2" stories or "His Beloved Pet" (which we
: wrote together), and "The Collar" but I, for one, am damn glad she looked
: at it differently.
That's an interesting way to approach it. Getting a character when he's
emotionally messed up and tehrefore willing to try something new and
different is probably a good way to go.
: >Of course, there are ways and means. I *could* take Garak/Bashir
: >seriously. Garak is obviously gay, and Bashir strikes me as a sexual
: >adventurer wanna-be who wouldn't be offended by an overture from a man
: >(he'd probably consider the Cardassian part weirder than the man part.)
: I can agree with that. Ever since "Past Prologue" (first Garak ep,
: right??) i've been convinced that Garak's a screaming queen and even Andrew
: Robinson has been heard to say the good tailor would go for "anything that
: moves."
Whuich is why he kept Ziyal at the "friendship" level, because under her
later actresses she doesn't move. :-) (oh, I'm being mean. I like Ziyal,
but Garak belongs with Bashir. There, see now I *am* a true slasher. :-))
: >But I usually have a really hard time believing in P/Q, because as much
: >as I believe that Q has a strong emotional desire for Picard, which
: >could translate into sexual desire if Q ewanted it to, I can't see Picard
: >ever choosing to reciprocate in that way. And hell, I'm *writing* a P/Q
: >story.
: OK, I know you don't buy Picard as a sub. But why don't you see him as
: possibly being bi? Even Patrick is willing to conceed the possibility.
: :-) I've said before that I think that, for Picard, the big barrier
: wouldn't be Q's gender but the simple fact that it's *Q*.
Acxtually, it isn't the bi thing that bothers me. It *is* the fact that
he's Q. I can't see Picard choosing to reciprocate sexually with Q, even
if he were capable of being friends with the entity, and I'm not 100%
sure on that. "In the Hall Of the Elven King", the slash story I'm trying
to work out the details of (the P/Q story, not the Magneto/Xavier story
from X-Men fandom since I haven't even figured out where to start on
that), I have a number of reasons why Picard might want to reach out to
Q, among them that Q reveals that since he and Picard last talked, his
life has been nightmarish even by Picard's standards (he fought a civil
war, lost and didn't realize he'd lost, discovered he'd been mindraped
into falling in love with his worst enemy, and upon the discovery of this
and the hatred he felt for this entity, the child they created together
died of its parents' enmity-- yes, I am taking "Q and Grey" as canon for
this story, and then retconning the hell out of it by making Suzie Q
evil)-- things that Picard can relate to as being awful stuff (unlike
"losing his powers", which Picard never believed in anyway.) But I'm not
sure that reaching out to Q would necessarily entail sex. And I want them
to have sex, so I'm struggling with it.
: >It's just really hard, when everyone else is gleefully dancing on
: >tables with the lampshades on their heads, to feel like the party
: >pooper who's stuck with grim reality, but that's how I feel. Most people
: >are primarily attracted to one sex or the other. There are many bisexuals,
: >and many more people with the potential to be bi (one of my friends called
: >herself "straight, but I may have a few bi tendencies since I have a crush
: >on this actress" when I first met her, and now she;'s a thoroughly out
: >lesbian.)
: Gee, that wouldn't be anyone I might . . . oh be married to, now would it?
: [Brief digression to explain: my wife atara, always thought she was
: straight until she fell big time for Sigourney Weaver, and then shortly
: thereafter we fell in love.]
Yes. I recall some degree of shock when Atara told me she'd fallen in
love with you, because I was like "Didn't you say you were convinced you
were straight?" It was actually very reassuring, in tht I realized that
thinking you are straight doesn't box you in to nearly the extent I
thought it did.
: >But it's the very openness of the Trek universe that makes me
: >feel like these people really wouldn't get involved with the same sex,
: >because there's no social opprobrium, or any reason not to do it other
: >than "I just don't go for that sex", and yet no one does do it. I don't
: >know. Maybe it's really that I don't understand straightness-- as a
: >bisexual, I can only extrapolate that "straight" means "I really am not
: >attracted to the same sex," it's not something I can emotionally
: >understand, and so maybe I'm underestimating the ability of straights
: >to be sexually adventurous.
: It looks to me like you're taking canon as *Canon.* For all we know some
: of the chracters might be bi, but we just *aren't* going to see it on Star
: Trek unless there's some goofy explanation like being a Trill. Also a lot
: of people who think ofthemselves as straight, still admit to the occasional
: bit of what the personals call "bi-curious." So it might follow that, in a
: society where there's no social opprobrium to homosexuality or bisexuality,
: people might act on that urge more than they do now. I'm not going with
: that old "everyone is really bi" line, because I don't believe it. I
: personally think that people's sexuality falls not into one of three
: categories (straight, gay, or bi) but on a continuum (not *the* Continuum
: :-) ) that can shift with where a person is in their life.
There are some characters I can really easily accept as bisexual. Both
Paris and Kim, for different reasons (Paris shouts out "I'll screw
anything" and Kim "I am totally clueless and I don't know what I want
yet.") Bashir strikes me as intensely bi-curious. Riker, too, is a "I'll
try anything once, twice to see if I like it, and three times if I'm
still not sure" type. Geordi LaForge doesn't know what he wants, either.
But Picard knows what he wants, is not casual about sex (at least, not
anymore), and doesn't strike me as particularly adventurous, or curious,
in that regard, and not made uncomfortable enough by the idea that he
would not be open to the possibility fo a man if he wanted one. Actually,
my biggest problem with Picard continues to be Q. I *could* buy
Picard/Data. (Not Picard/Riker-- the chemistry there is totally asexual,
to me. And Riker likes young pretty people.)
: >Anyway, this is part of why I write so little smut-- figuring out how
: >to do it. (I have been trying to slash Magneto and Xavier for *years* and
: >still haven't gotten them to do so much as kiss without mind control
: >involved. P and Q I'm doing a little better on. I got them to go
: >dancing.)
: Frankly, I have more problem with them dacing that I do with them fucking,
: but that's me. :-)
Just because you hate to dance... :-)
: >because I can read and enjoy slash, but I don't really quite
: >believe in it-- and I can't write what I can't believe.
: And you can only believe in *one* possibility?
Funny, isn't it? I can do alternate universes until the cows come home,
but other sexual possibilities seem somehow much more distant than "what
if Q never got his powers back?"
: >Is there any advice anyone can offer me that would help?
: Yup. Try playing with different dynamics. Tell youself that for Story A
: and Story A alone, "I believe Dynamic X." Look at the relationship through
: the lens of Dynamic X. That's what I did when I literally wrote two
: stories just to get them to the break-up story.
Which, BTW, I quite liked. Establishing that there is a sexual interest
as early as Q Who, which really is where it starts appearing, and then
putting that on aback burner until Picard's ready for it, struck me as a
good way to do it.
: I can think of a lot of different P/Q dyanmics: yes they'd fuck like
: bunnies and live happily ever after, yes bunnies but not happily ever
: after, no bunnies and no happily ever after, ixnay on the bunnies but
: happiness anyway . . . And then there's the question who wants who more?
: Does Picard want Q, but thinks that the supposedly "advanced" entity
: wouldn't be interested? Does Q want Picard but thinks that the supposedly
: straight and narrow Human can't rise above his own image of himself. Do
: they want each other but refuse to admit it? Does Picard, who's probably
: been chased a few time in his life, know damn well what Q wants, while Q is
: clueless? Is Picard ignoring some pretty blatant signals because he can't
: believe that they're for real? And so on . . .
I can only believe in a tiny fraction of those. Most involve neither
bunnies nor happiness. I don't think Q is set up to be happy, not at this
stage in his life and Picard will not be around by the time he grows up
enough to learn how to do it.
: As an example, "His Beloved Pet" started out simply because I wanted to
: write Q as Picard's lover, but with more of a cynical, cruel edge. I felt
: I'd lost the edge in "My Fair Jeanne," so the idea of Q deliberately
: setting Pciard up for a fall came to mind. I was just playing with another
: dynamic. Nice thing about P & Q is that there are a lot of possibilies.
I actually like Q having a harder edge, but the fact that he turned
Picard into a woman in MFJ, on more or less a whim, and then humiliated
Picard by turning up when he was masturbating, gave him something of an
edge in my opinion.
: >I guess probably most slashers wouldn't understand this-- they're probably
: >used to the "I don't get slash, it's sick and why would you want to do it?"
: >attitude, but I've never before seen someone say "I love slash but I don't
: >believe in it for one minute, can you help me to believe?" Clap your
hands and
: >maybe Alara will believe that Picard could love Q? :-)
: I don't always know that I *believe* in it 100% either. Picard obviously
: *loves* women and admires them a great deal (you can tell even with women
: he doesn't sleep with or love in *that* way). Why should he fall in love
: with Q, who's ostensibly a man, and an asshole to boot? Why should Q, a
: possibly genderless entity want to have sex with a Human?
I can buy Q. The Q seem to translate their feelings into human terms on a
consistent basis. Q is obsessed with Picard. I could easily see this
translating into sexual desire. He doesn't *really* feel sexual desire,
that is the manifestation of his true feelings as filtered through the
lens of a humanoid body. But yes, why fall in love with Q? Hell, I'm
having a hard time getting *T'Laren* to fall in love with Q, and she was
designed for it! :-) *I* wouldn't fall in love with Q if I knew him
personally (I don't think...)
: But , IMO, what you need to try if you really want to write slash is to
: think outside the idea that there is only one true way to look at a
: character or pair of characters.
It's not that there is only one true way, but I think I see a much
smaller spectrum than you do. I need to find my rainbow glasses... :-)
--
No sig today. Sig tomorrow. There's always a sig tomorrow.
Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com
All Aleph Press stories are at http://www.mindspring.com/~alara/ajer.
--
****************************************************
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**Wednesday and Thursday, December 24 and 25 **
** and **
**Wednesday, December 31 and Thursday, January 1 **
**Please keep the Goddesses happy by *not* posting**
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ASCEM
Date:
Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:30:15 -0500 (EST)
From:
Elizabeth Celeste <etwi...@helios.acomp.usf.edu>
To:
AS...@earthlink.net
Subject:
Re: ASCEML - Re: An Interesting Question, re Slash vs. Gay Fiction
> : On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:33:50 GMT,Aleph Press <al...@netcom.com>
> wrote:
> There are some characters I can really easily accept as bisexual. Both
> Paris and Kim, for different reasons (Paris shouts out "I'll screw
> anything" and Kim "I am totally clueless and I don't know what I want
> yet.")
Which is one of the reason's that Paris has probably set a new record
for
the number of slash parings. It takes no leap of faith, no soul
searching,
nothing, to accept that Tom Paris will have sex with most any other
character. It's what he does. Although I have never quite understood
the
great Chackotay/Paris match up- they just don't have anything in common,
and Chakotay is too disturbingly heterosexual for his own good.
Harry Kim is easy to believe to be bisexual, not just for his utter
cluelessness, but for the air of quiet desperation about him. The boy
fell
in love with a holodeck character. It's kind of pathetic. He's the Bobby
Drake of Star Trek. And the first person to buy him a margarita and
treat
him nice has his loyalty for life- see Tom Paris.
> Bashir strikes me as intensely bi-curious. Riker, too, is a
> "I'll try anything once, twice to see if I like it, and three times if
> I'm still not sure" type.
Four times if it's on sale, and five if I'm on Risa. Afterall, we all
know
that actions taken on Risa don't actually count. Rikers the kind of man
with whom I would lock up the sheep.
> Geordi LaForge doesn't know what he wants, either.
Geordi wants a partner. Who isn't a hologram. He's not picky. All he
asks
is a pulse. And preferably a generally humanoid form.
> I *could* buy Picard/Data. (Not Picard/Riker-- the
> chemistry there is totally asexual, to me. And Riker likes young
> pretty people.)
I dunno. I just have a hard time watching Data get slashed. For a
while, I
lived with a girl who was convinced that Brent Spiner was the most
attractive man on the planet, nad had an entire dorm room plasterd in
nothing but Pitures of Data. And occasionally the rest of the cast. The
whole thing mildly disturbed me.
I've had trouble imagining him with anyone but her since. And the yellow
eyes would follow you around the room.
As for Riker, Picard knows where his number one has been. And he knows
that he doesn't want to go there.
Riker makes Tom Paris look like the vestial virgin.
(Admittedly, this may be only due to the differences in oppertunity
between prision and Voyager, verss the Enterprise and Risa.)
Elizabeth, imagining her mythical X-Men/Voyager crossover, but trying
figure out a way to have it involve Bobby Drake. Hmmm.
Elizabeth Celeste etwi...@helios.acomp.usf.edu
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