Gazza wanted by the IRA?
Camel J.
I heard yesterday that the death threat note that was sent to
Gascoigne after his flute-playing gesture was written in Gaelic, had
an Irish postmark and apparently threatened to have the IRA come round
to his house and do him over. Has anyone heard any more on this? As
much as I dislike Gazza, I would hate to see him get knee-capped (or
worse)
--
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SHEDGIRL
he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
long time the hun scum
the londoner
Camel J. <cjoc...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<34c1c8a8...@news.premier.co.uk>...
Ronald Hickey
In article <01bd245b$92459720$403b70c2@default>, SHEDGIRL
<nif...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>long time the hun scum
IRA supporter now are we?
>the londoner
And you have the nerve to sign off with this.
--
Ronald Hickey
West Ham United F.C.
Paul Louis
On 18 Jan 98 13:56:11 GMT, "SHEDGIRL" <nif...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>long time the hun scum
>
>the londoner
Stop posting please Shedgirl. You're stupid and obnoxious and no-one
cares what you have to say.
--
Paul Louis - pa...@i8spamacorns.demon.co.uk
Remove the word "spam" from my Email address to reply.
Newcastle United FC - 71st time's the charm.
"The lads really ran their socks into the ground." ALEX FERGUSON
Ian Harvey
pa...@i8spamacorns.demon.co.uk (Paul Louis) wrote:
>On 18 Jan 98 13:56:11 GMT, "SHEDGIRL" <nif...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>>long time the hun scum
>>
>>the londoner
>
>Stop posting please Shedgirl. You're stupid and obnoxious and no-one
>cares what you have to say.
I'll second that.
PJS
On 18/01/98 06:33, in message <34c212ad...@nntp.netcruiser>, Ian Harvey
<iha...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, she's right. Gascoigne, in spite of being warned off on the previous
occasion, has aligned himself with the forces of sectarian bigotry of his own
free will. He must therefore be regarded as a legitimate target for the other
side, quite as much as Billy Wright.
William Mack
In article <34c1c8a8...@news.premier.co.uk>, "Camel J."
<cjoc...@hotmail.com> writes
>I heard yesterday that the death threat note that was sent to
>Gascoigne after his flute-playing gesture was written in Gaelic, had
>an Irish postmark and apparently threatened to have the IRA come round
>to his house and do him over. Has anyone heard any more on this? As
>much as I dislike Gazza, I would hate to see him get knee-capped (or
>worse)
Religion should not play any part in football, but in Glasgow, sadly, it does. I
really don't think the IRA would harm him, because it would be totally counter-
productive to other things that are going on in the bigger picture. The sooner
this subject gets dropped the better, he's been fined, he's apologised and he
knows what he did was stupid. When he made the gesture, I dont think he realised
the backlash that would come with it. Although the Celtic fans were verbally
abusing him, he gets paid a lot of money and should be professional and ignore
it. (shades of Cantona). Its sad that its come to this.
--
William Mack
Paul Louis
On Sun, 18 Jan 98 22:57:05 GMT, P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk (PJS) wrote:
>No, she's right. Gascoigne, in spite of being warned off on the previous
>occasion, has aligned himself with the forces of sectarian bigotry of his own
>free will. He must therefore be regarded as a legitimate target for the other
>side, quite as much as Billy Wright.
Have a sense of perspective, man. What Gazza did was stupid and wrong,
but we did away with capital punishment for murder, let alone hand
gestures, decades ago. Billy Wright, scum though he undoubtedly is,
was in prison and should not have been murdered. We have laws for a
reason, you know.
Danny
>long time the hun scum
>
>the londoner
>
Muppet.
___________________________________________________________
A team is like a nice clock. If just one piece is missing, then the clock
is still beautiful. But it doesn't work the same.
RUUD GULLIT
--
Danny
BTW - Take the 'honda' bit outta the address for replies.
Nork
On Sun, 18 Jan 98 22:57:05 GMT, P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk (PJS) wrote:
>On 18/01/98 06:33, in message <34c212ad...@nntp.netcruiser>, Ian Harvey
><iha...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> pa...@i8spamacorns.demon.co.uk (Paul Louis) wrote:
>>
>> >On 18 Jan 98 13:56:11 GMT, "SHEDGIRL" <nif...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>> >>long time the hun scum
>> >>
>> >>the londoner
>> >
>> >Stop posting please Shedgirl. You're stupid and obnoxious and no-one
>> >cares what you have to say.
>> I'll second that.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No, she's right. Gascoigne, in spite of being warned off on the previous
>occasion, has aligned himself with the forces of sectarian bigotry of his own
>free will. He must therefore be regarded as a legitimate target for the other
>side, quite as much as Billy Wright.
>
I don't think he has the intelligence to comprehend the sectarian
division and the depth of feeling. He appears to have the mind of a
schoolboy and he's far too stupid to realise what he's done.
Tim Thorne
SHEDGIRL wrote
>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>long time the hun scum
Using your logic, we should execute Val Doonican for playing his guitar.
Totally in agreement.
Tim Thorne
FBC Houlford
SHEDGIRL (nif...@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
: he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
: long time the hun scum
: the londoner
Forget Burns, this is what kill-files were invented for.
-Ben
Rowley Birkin QC
I'd have to agree.
The IRA have been looking for a creative, goalscoring midfileder for years.
How much have they bid?
I think £2.5m should be enough.
I still believe that thay really need another striker though.
Possibly a Hungarian.
Camel J.
On 18 Jan 98 13:56:11 GMT, "SHEDGIRL" <nif...@dircon.co.uk> bellowed
forth:
>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>long time the hun scum
>
>the londoner
>
How would you like death threats through your door?
Camel J.
>I don't think he has the intelligence to comprehend the sectarian
>division and the depth of feeling. He appears to have the mind of a
>schoolboy and he's far too stupid to realise what he's done.
albeit a wife-beating, alcoholic schoolboy.
Paul Louis
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:42:17 GMT, cjoc...@hotmail.com (Camel J.)
wrote:
>On 18 Jan 98 13:56:11 GMT, "SHEDGIRL" <nif...@dircon.co.uk> bellowed
>forth:
>
>>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>>long time the hun scum
>>
>>the londoner
>>
>How would you like death threats through your door?
You're assuming he/she doesn't already get them.
Iain Hynd
On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:32:00 +0000, William Mack
<Sou...@sound-doctor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>Religion should not play any part in football, but in Glasgow, sadly, it does. I
>really don't think the IRA would harm him, because it would be totally counter-
>productive to other things that are going on in the bigger picture. The sooner
>this subject gets dropped the better, he's been fined, he's apologised and he
>knows what he did was stupid. When he made the gesture, I dont think he realised
>the backlash that would come with it.
I somehow doubt he forgot the death threat he got for it last time.
Either he is insane or was hoping the cameras/media wouldn't notice.
Iain.
ih...@sol.co.uk
Warning: I've got a severe medical problem that
makes me deadly serious. If I'm ever funny
then it's a sign that I'm finally clinically insane.
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Re: Gazza wanted by the IRA?
>From: P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk (PJS)
>Date: 20/01/98 00:58 GMT
>Message-id: <N.011998.165857.07@winwaed>
>
>On 18/01/98 16:29, in message <34c29b48...@news.u-net.com>, Snaps
><Sn...@kavana.u-net.com> wrote:
>
>> P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk (PJS) wrote:
>>
>> >No, she's right. Gascoigne, in spite of being warned off on the previous
>> >occasion, has aligned himself with the forces of sectarian bigotry of his
>> own
>> >free will. He must therefore be regarded as a legitimate target for the
>> other
>> >side, quite as much as Billy Wright.
>>
>> complaints when he's lynched by the KKK?
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This isn't the same thing, since Malcolm X was not, when he died, on one side
>
>of a sectarian struggle. If you join AFA, though, you are taking the risk
>that
>Nazi skinheads will beat you up. Similarly, if you are a Nazi skinhead, you
>risk being beaten up by AFA or the Anti-Nazi League. Gascoigne, who plays for
>a
>club with sectarian supporters, has chosen to join one side in a sectarian
>war.
>He could have stood back from it, but he has opted to align himself with the
>UVF. It's like joining the army and moaning that people are shooting at you;
>not like wearing a T-Shirt.
>
A bit simplistic. Gascoigne has simply contracted into the pervading
atmosphere of the Hun dressing room. I beleive he really has not got a clue of
the possible impact his flauting actions could have had on the Celtic support,
particularly in that part of the ground where most of the N. Irish fans have
season tickets.
I put this down to him just being the bawheid he is. It is interesting that
more notably orange than orange Huns have never, ever felt the need to imitate
an Orange band member: because they know not to (similarly the absence of
Sellick players making the Sign of the Cross during games has been apparent
over the past few years). If Gascoigne has aligned himself to anybody its the
arseholes in the dressing room like Andy Goram,Ian Durrant, Coisty and Ian
Ferguson who must be laughing up their sleeves at the jolly japes they have put
him up to. Gazza has certainly not aligned himself with the LVF (or
UVF)especially because Goram has the Ibrox rights to that.
As for IRA death threats, its probably some wee laddie frae Castlemilk who got
his Granda' in Derry to write it for him.
Finally, Gazza plays for a club who have SOME sectarian supporters; there could
well be tens of thousands of them, but not all.
--
Ronnie the Tim
rwvs...@aol.com
Paul Grayson
>I don't think he has the intelligence to comprehend the sectarian
>division and the depth of feeling. He appears to have the mind of a
>schoolboy and he's far too stupid to realise what he's done.
That's a bit rich - sectarianism is quite frankly the pastime of extreemly
stupid people - blowing each other up due to minor differences over a
religion whose main teaching is for people to be nice to each other.
Can we get back a football topic, such are Newcastle United completly skint,
please?
--
Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK
York City Supporter and proud of it,
the only team to beat Manchester United at Old Trafford in the 95-96 season.
Arthur Guinness
The IRA didn't blow up people because of religion, they did it to try
and get British rule out of Northern Ireland by force, which is still
wrong. It's the unionists terrorists that kill and bomb because of
religion.
Oh, can we stop this crap soon. Let's get back to football please.
---
John H.
"I would go back to Parma on foot if I had to"
-- Faustino Asprilla, talking of his loyalty to Newcastle Unite
PJS
Ho L.Y.
>Oh, can we stop this crap soon. Let's get back to football please.
For once I agree with you!
--
Bill Shankly (about the "This is Anfield" plaque):
"It's there to remind our lads who they're playing for,
and to remind the opposition who they're playing against."
Mick
On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:37:31 -0000, "Tim Thorne"
<tho...@REMglobalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>SHEDGIRL wrote
>>he desreves what he gets. i have been waiting for someone to do him for a
>>long time the hun scum
>
>
>Using your logic, we should execute Val Doonican for playing his guitar.
>Totally in agreement.
>
>Tim Thorne
>
Hey, if it means we can execute Val Doonican, lets use anyone's logic.
Mick g
PapaBear
Rwvsmith <rwvs...@aol.com> wrote in article
Ronnie,
I can't agree, and here's why: (sit down this may take some time)
> A bit simplistic. Gascoigne has simply contracted into the pervading
> atmosphere of the Hun dressing room.
The pervading atmosphere of the oasis of tranquility and harmony that is
the "Hun dressing room" is more likely to be one of refined ecumenical
exchange, given the number of Catholics, Lutherans, Jews, C of E and
Atheists that there are in the team.
Gascoigne was being given dogs abuse by the Celtic fans and he retailiated
by doing the thing that he knew would wind them up. It was NOT a sectarian
gesture. He was simply saying "Up yours, you Tim bastards!" in an eloquent
and witty manner.
Personally, I found his mime very funny - as did Pat Nevin on the "Channel
5 Tim Hour" aka Live and Dangerous. The whole thing is being blown out of
any proportion - because it's Gazza. I also think that Rangers made a huge
mistake asking Gazza to apologise and to pay a week's wages. Doing that
suggested that Gazza had done something worthy of further comment. He
hadn't.
> I beleive he really has not got a clue of
> the possible impact his flauting actions could have had on the Celtic
support,
> particularly in that part of the ground where most of the N. Irish fans
have
> season tickets.
Oh, au contraire. He knew exactly what the impact would be; his mistake was
thinking that TGITW had a sense of humour or that you can take it as well
as dish it out. He failed to realise that the paranoia and hatred of
Rangers at Celtic Park is so extreme that you (plural) are unable to keep
things in any proportion. Any humour you may have disappears under a
blanket of bitterness and inferiority complex when it's Rangers that are
in question.
> Finally, Gazza plays for a club who have SOME sectarian supporters; there
could
> well be tens of thousands of them, but not all.
We have SOME very sectarian supporters (as do you), we have thousands
-perhaps tens of thousands who are 90 minute bigots (as do you) but the
difference between the clubs is that Rangers
don't posture and bluff about rooting out sectarianism, as wee Percy McCann
and Celtic do, they act on it, as wee Percy McCann and Celtic don't.
People selling unacceptable stuff outside Ibrox are moved on; Gazza is
fined 20K per second of flute playing and forced to apologise publicly;
Rangers often have more Catholics than Protestants in the team. In fact, I
reckon we have more in our team than you do in yours ( and if we'd put a
wee bet on that at William Hills 10 years ago...;).)
Celtic on the other hand, in order to score points over TFOD, stoke up any
and every perceived sectarianism on Rangers part, thereby creating an
adverserial situation based along sectarian lines - hardly the actions of a
club trully committed to getting rid of bigotry.
Was Tommy Burns fined and forced to publicly apologise for his remarks
about a bias against Celtic on the part of the officials- with the
implication that they all were corrupt masons? Was he fuck! The
"plucky underdog, persecuted for their religion and heritage" myth was
further propogated and a whole range of decent men slandered by one (Burns)
of the four most powerful men in Scottish football, whilst another colluded
with it (McCann). Meanwhile the other two, Murray and Smith, behaved with
the dignity and poise that we have come to expect from both men and held
their tongues, thereby ensuring that any flames of division were not
fanned.
As I said before, the depth of hatred and bitterness felt by Celtic (FC &
fans) for Rangers is so intense that they are incapable of behaving in any
other way.
So rather than blowing an inocuous wee gesture by Gazza out of ALL
proportion, methinks Celtic fans should take a good hard look at themselves
and the mindset that gives rise to this hysteria every time something
happens they don't like.
pb
--
XXXXXXXXXX
Alasdair Allan
Rwvsmith <rwvs...@aol.com> wrote in article
> A bit simplistic. Gascoigne has simply contracted into the pervading
> atmosphere of the Hun dressing room. I beleive he really has not got a
clue of
> the possible impact his flauting actions could have had on the Celtic
support,
> particularly in that part of the ground where most of the N. Irish fans
have
> season tickets.
Sorry but no-one in the Celtic support saw the gesture. Had the split
second in which he stupidly fluttered his digits not been caught by the TV
cameras nothing would have come of this.
> I put this down to him just being the bawheid he is. It is interesting
that
> more notably orange than orange Huns have never, ever felt the need to
imitate
> an Orange band member: because they know not to (similarly the absence of
> Sellick players making the Sign of the Cross during games has been
apparent
> over the past few years). If Gascoigne has aligned himself to anybody
its the
> arseholes in the dressing room like Andy Goram,Ian Durrant, Coisty and
Ian
> Ferguson who must be laughing up their sleeves at the jolly japes they
have put
> him up to. Gazza has certainly not aligned himself with the LVF (or
> UVF)especially because Goram has the Ibrox rights to that.
So Goram is a supporter of the UVF ??? Keep to the facts man, if it were
the case he would not have signed and played with distinction for
Hibernian.
> As for IRA death threats, its probably some wee laddie frae Castlemilk
who got
> his Granda' in Derry to write it for him.
Its been blown out of all proportion - and I mean the whole thing. Time,
methinks, to return to football.
--
Cheers,
Alasdair Allan
Rangers Webzine - http ://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/rangers
"I don't think it was that out of the ordinary for the flying pig."
- Ted E. Bear describes another Andy Goram wondersave.
Alasdair Allan
Arthur Guinness <guinn...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<6a0u16$oss$1...@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>...
> The IRA didn't blow up people because of religion, they did it to try
> and get British rule out of Northern Ireland by force, which is still
> wrong. It's the unionists terrorists that kill and bomb because of
> religion.
You sad twat.
> Oh, can we stop this crap soon. Let's get back to football please.
Course you made your point and want to leave it unchallenged!!! Trouble is
your point was bollocks.
Paul Louis
Personally I think Gazza's actions are not that dissimilar to Teddy
Sherringham's at the Arsenal-Man U match when he kissed his badge in
front of the Arsenal fans. Both did it to get a rise out of the fans
who were baiting them. The only difference is, one did it in an aura
of hatred with a long and bitter history, imitating the actions of a
group who everyone has nothing but the utmost contempt for, the other
pretended to play the flute.
Camel J.
>The IRA didn't blow up people because of religion, they did it to try
>and get British rule out of Northern Ireland by force, which is still
>wrong. It's the unionists terrorists that kill and bomb because of
>religion.
>
But the IRA may want to make an example of him......
Camel J.
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:11:01 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
<alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> bellowed forth:
>Sorry but no-one in the Celtic support saw the gesture. Had the split
>second in which he stupidly fluttered his digits not been caught by the TV
>cameras nothing would have come of this.
>
Someone must have, it was a Celtic fan who reported it.
Danny
In article <34c3f223...@supernews.griffin.co.uk>, Mick
<mi...@griffin.co.uk> writes
Nice idea. Best one in this thread by a long way!
Danny
In article <34dfc964...@news.demon.co.uk>, Paul Louis
<pa...@i8spamacorns.demon.co.uk> writes
>Personally I think Gazza's actions are not that dissimilar to Teddy
>Sherringham's at the Arsenal-Man U match when he kissed his badge in
>front of the Arsenal fans. Both did it to get a rise out of the fans
>who were baiting them. The only difference is, one did it in an aura
>of hatred with a long and bitter history, imitating the actions of a
>group who everyone has nothing but the utmost contempt for, the other
>pretended to play the flute.
Brought a smile to my face Paul. Looks like Snaps has got some
compo!
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Re: Gazza wanted by the IRA?
>Date: 20/01/98 11:40 GMT
>Message-id: <01bf633a$71333ea0$LocalHost@wubs>
>
>in which papa bear bellowed thus:
Sit down papa, this may take some time :)
>The pervading atmosphere of the oasis of tranquility and harmony that is
>the "Hun dressing room" is more likely to be one of refined ecumenical
>exchange, given the number of Catholics, Lutherans, Jews, C of E and
>Atheists that there are in the team.
>
Yes, refined and ecumenical except if you are a pape who wants to make the Sign
of the Cross as you enter the pitch just as you did in Germany, Italy, England
etc. The same dressing room that has housed, in recent times, certain
individuals charged with anti Catholic sectarian offences.
>
>Gascoigne was being given dogs abuse by the Celtic fans and he retailiated
>by doing the thing that he knew would wind them up. It was NOT a sectarian
>gesture. He was simply saying "Up yours, you Tim bastards!" in an eloquent
>and witty manner.
>
>
>Gascoigne was being given dogs abuse by the Celtic fans and he retailiated
>by doing the thing that he knew would wind them up. It was NOT a sectarian
>gesture. He was simply saying "Up yours, you Tim bastards!" in an eloquent
>and witty manner.
>
Give you that one, in the sense that I'm unsure as to what a sectarian gesture
could be: although I have serious doubts that imitating a "music playing"
associate/supporter of an anti RC organisation is either eloquent or witty.
>Personally, I found his mime very funny - as did Pat Nevin on the "Channel
>5 Tim Hour" aka Live and Dangerous. The whole thing is being blown out of
>any proportion - because it's Gazza. I also think that Rangers made a huge
>mistake asking Gazza to apologise and to pay a week's wages. Doing that
>suggested that Gazza had done something worthy of further comment. He
>hadn't.
>
No it wasn't funny. It was both stupid and sad. A flick of the "V"s would
have been much more appropriate. As to why he apologised and was fined, well
that's the business of TFOD: I'm really not interested.
>
>Oh, au contraire. He knew exactly what the impact would be; his mistake was
>thinking that TGITW had a sense of humour or that you can take it as well
>as dish it out.
You are crediting the man with more intellect than he has shown in his life.
He fully knew the implications of his actions, I beleive he simply couldn't
stop himself from doing it, his lack of judgement as to our sense of hiumour is
a figment of your imagination.
>
>things in any proportion. Any humour you may have disappears under a
>blanket of bitterness and inferiority complex when it's Rangers that are
>in question.
If that is the case then why has it not been such an issue amongst the fans or
indeed the fanzines?
>We have SOME very sectarian supporters (as do you), we have thousands
>-perhaps tens of thousands who are 90 minute bigots (as do you)
Agreed.
>the
>difference between the clubs is that Rangers
>don't posture and bluff about rooting out sectarianism, as wee Percy McCann
>and Celtic do, they act on it, as wee Percy McCann and Celtic don't.
>
>People selling unacceptable stuff outside Ibrox are moved on; Gazza is
>fined 20K per second of flute playing and forced to apologise publicly;
>Rangers often have more Catholics than Protestants in the team. In fact, I
>reckon we have more in our team than you do in yours ( and if we'd put a
>wee bet on that at William Hills 10 years ago...;).)
>
>Celtic on the other hand, in order to score points over TFOD, stoke up any
>and every perceived sectarianism on Rangers part, thereby creating an
>adverserial situation based along sectarian lines - hardly the actions of a
>club trully committed to getting rid of bigotry.
>
At least the Money Bunnet is doing something about this; sure progress isn't
exactly electric but he is determined.
Winning a European award for fighting against bigotry and discrimination hardly
strikes me as being the result of posturing and bluffing. Campaigning on
behalf of the Asian community in Scotland: I take it you think that is
posturing and bluffing. Being the ONLY football club in the UK to financially
support cross community initiatives in NI: posturing and bluffing? Convincing
the education authorities to tackle bigotry in the education system: posturing
and bluffing? Withdrawing more season tickets from fans in one season than
TFOD have in the past 10 years for perceived sectarian politicking: posturing
and bluffing? Allowing your victorious cup winning first team to be heard
singing sectarian songs on live telly and saying nothing about it: sorry that's
your lot :)
But then I forgot that David Murray instigated that great idea to drag TFOD
into the next century "The Hun Campaign Against That Bad Thing Called
Sectarianism That Doesn't Exist At Ibrox Anyway And If Anyone Says It Does
They'll Get Either Pelters In The Rangers News Or Banned From The Ibrox Press
Box (Or Both).
BTW, illegal street sellers of anything get moved on at both grounds.
>
>Was Tommy Burns fined and forced to publicly apologise for his remarks
>about a bias against Celtic on the part of the officials- with the
>implication that they all were corrupt masons? Was he fuck!
He did indeed apologise (eventually). However I don't recall any quote that
could be described as implicating referees being corrupt masons -I'm sure there
are none anyway :) - perhaps you can illuminate me further on this one.
>The
>"plucky underdog, persecuted for their religion and heritage" myth was
>further propogated and a whole range of decent men slandered by one (Burns)
>of the four most powerful men in Scottish football, whilst another colluded
>with it (McCann).
When, where, how????
>Meanwhile the other two, Murray and Smith, behaved with
>the dignity and poise that we have come to expect from both men and held
>their tongues, thereby ensuring that any flames of division were not
>fanned.
Just like Murray held his tongue with Gerry McTaig last week. Yes, tremendous
poise and dignity. It seems the only thing that gets the Tin man upset is
when TFOD are accused of sectarianism; it does seem to annoy him somewhat.
Accuse TFOD of anything else and there's hardly a whimper from the man.
>
>As I said before, the depth of hatred and bitterness felt by Celtic (FC &
>fans) for Rangers is so intense that they are incapable of behaving in any
>other way.
>
You're just guessing now as to the depth of bitterness and hatred. If you had
half a clue as to how SOME people feel about Orange bands you might begin to
understand their anger and reactions. As to Celtic FC, I have already posted
that they should have kept out of this.
>methinks Celtic fans should take a good hard look at themselves
>and the mindset that gives rise to this hysteria every time something
>happens they don't like.
>
I suppose, Papa, this is the icing on the cake.
Gazza makes an inflammatory gesture that is condemned by just about everyone
(your good self excluded here of course) but in (your) reality the problem lies
with Celtic and it's fans. Nice one!
David Murray said some time ago: "Celtic do it their way and we do it our way.
We maybe don't blow our trumpet about it but it is happening". Gazza is
perhaps paying the price for this.
You can stand up now :)
Shabba
Is this a new flute-playing incident we're talking about here, or the
one from last season? It was a stupid thing to do, but he's just an
obnoxious big kid, & probably too stupid to realise the offence he was
going to cause. Unless you're telling me he's done it again. To be
honest, tho, I suspect the threat was a hoax.
Anyway, if the rumours are true, he'll soon be i the States - I wonder
who he'll manage to offend over here.
shab
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Re: Gazza wanted by the IRA?
>Date: 20/01/98 12:11 GMT
>Message-id: <01bd259b$8467ddc0$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>
>
>
>Sorry but no-one in the Celtic support saw the gesture.
Soprry, Alasdair but they did.
>Had the split
>second in which he stupidly fluttered his digits not been caught by the TV
>cameras nothing would have come of this.
Almost certainly true.
>So Goram is a supporter of the UVF ??? Keep to the facts man, if it were
>the case he would not have signed and played with distinction for
>Hibernian.
I was trying to be humouroushere, but since you mention it: it is fact that
Goram's interest in the NI Loyalist persuasion has only come about since his
move to TFOD. I doubt very much that he had a clue that there was any
significance to the name Hbernian prior to his move there. He has yet to
publicly and categorically refute the allegations made (re his armband) against
him in the Sunday and Daily national press of last week.
>
>Its been blown out of all proportion - and I mean the whole thing. Time,
>methinks, to return to football.
>
>--
>Cheers,
>
> Alasdair Allan
OK.
PJS
On 20/01/98 03:40, in message <01bf633a$71333ea0$LocalHost@wubs>, "PapaBear"
<p...@Ibrox.co.uk> wrote:
> Personally, I found his mime very funny - as did Pat Nevin on the "Channel
> 5 Tim Hour" aka Live and Dangerous. The whole thing is being blown out of
> any proportion - because it's Gazza. I also think that Rangers made a huge
> mistake asking Gazza to apologise and to pay a week's wages. Doing that
> suggested that Gazza had done something worthy of further comment. He
> hadn't.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are some things you don't joke about. What next, will he be doing Hitler
impressions in front of Maccabi Haifa fans?
Alasdair Allan
Camel J. <cjoc...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<34c8cf5...@news.premier.co.uk>...
> On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:11:01 GMT, "Alasdair Allan"
> <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> bellowed forth:
>
>
> >Sorry but no-one in the Celtic support saw the gesture. Had the split
> >second in which he stupidly fluttered his digits not been caught by the
TV
> >cameras nothing would have come of this.
> >
> Someone must have, it was a Celtic fan who reported it.
<Celtic Fan> Ya beauty we beat the scum, put the dinner on wife.
<Celtic Fan's Wife> Wasnt that awful that Paul "Gazza" Gascoigne gesture.
<Celtic Fan> What gesture?
<Celtic Fan's Wife> Pretending to play the flute - it was on Sky Telly,
little John-Paul-Joseph was watching it.
<Celtic Fan> Right that's it.
<fx> <picks up phone and dials three number>
<Celtic Fan> Get me the police, I have been incited to riot.
<Police Clerk> Did you see the incident.
<Celtic Fan> Damn right I did, inside the stadium we all saw it we did.
Repeated ad nauseum all over Possil and Royston (those without phones
making the trip to the call box outside the high-riser).
Alasdair Allan
Rwvsmith <rwvs...@aol.com> wrote in article
> I was trying to be humouroushere, but since you mention it: it is fact
that
> Goram's interest in the NI Loyalist persuasion has only come about since
his
> move to TFOD. I doubt very much that he had a clue that there was any
> significance to the name Hbernian prior to his move there. He has yet to
> publicly and categorically refute the allegations made (re his armband)
against
> him in the Sunday and Daily national press of last week.
Goram wore an armband on January 2nd. As he always has done when the game
has been on January 2nd. January 2nd is significant as the anniversary of
the Ibrox disaster.
It is not a matter for public discussion, it is not a matter for
speculation which has not been made in the past, it is not necessary to run
to the press to counter fucking SICK allegations from a crowd with bigger
chips on their shoulders larger than Everest.
And it is certainly not humerous, funny, appropriate to insult the
commemoration of 66 people dying in any forum let alone this group.
Alasdair Allan
Rwvsmith <rwvs...@aol.com> wrote in article
> >Gascoigne was being given dogs abuse by the Celtic fans and he
retailiated
> >by doing the thing that he knew would wind them up. It was NOT a
sectarian
> >gesture. He was simply saying "Up yours, you Tim bastards!" in an
eloquent
> >and witty manner.
> >
>
> Give you that one, in the sense that I'm unsure as to what a sectarian
gesture
> could be: although I have serious doubts that imitating a "music playing"
> associate/supporter of an anti RC organisation is either eloquent or
witty.
This is getting out of hand.
1. Orange bands are celebrating Protestantism and the enlightenment that
led to the disestablishment of the Catholic church within much of northern
europe. This directly led to the massive advances over the next three
hundreds years that have given the Western world the wealth it now holds.
2. There is nothing, per se, anti-Catholic about celebrating Protestantism.
It is not anti-Catholic to state that the Catholic church spent hundreds
of years persecuting scientists and stifling economic development. While
it may be less important since the 1950s and Vatican II to remember this it
is no less an important part of European and world culture.
3. Scotland played a leading role in this schism between the catholic and
protestant churches and therefore its people can have a sense of pride
about their foresight to move to a style of religion that only three
hundred years later the Papacy would move towards.
4. As an atheist I am glad that the enlightenment brought about by the
formation of Protestantism allows me to go on to a higher form of religious
acceptance (none).
5. Rangers symbolism as an outlet for Protestant celebration led directly
from Celtics formation as a sectarian organisation founded to promote
bigotry in the East End of Glasgow. Before that Rangers could not be
described as having a culture related to this in any way.
Given the ease of winding up the idiots, if I were Gazza, I'd take up flute
lessons and start playing every game.
Its time to give up the pseudo "hard done by innocents" image. Celtic's
foundation and whole raison d'etre are to promote and kindle division
within Scotland. If Celtic did not exist, there would be a much stronger
sense of pride in Scotland. IMO, a strong enough sense of pride to have
seen our independance years ago.
And before you come back with the "then Rangers would only be a little
club" you might want to remember that Rangers, from their founding,
uncorrupted (as Celtic have corrupted us with religion) days were a massive
club, needing to move to Ibrox park and getting crowds of 10-20,000 in the
1880s (before Celtic formed). Massive for the time and comparable to
100,000 crowds in later years.
Brian Russell
Alasdair Allan wrote:
>
> Goram wore an armband on January 2nd. As he always has done when the game
> has been on January 2nd. January 2nd is significant as the anniversary of
> the Ibrox disaster.
>
Why did he spin some story to the papers about it being in memory of his
auntie then ?
This was followed by comments from his mum who said she died in October
and he wasn't particularly close to her anyway.
> It is not a matter for public discussion, it is not a matter for
> speculation which has not been made in the past, it is not necessary to run
If his own Mum doesn't believe his story why should anyone else ?
> And it is certainly not humerous, funny, appropriate to insult the
> commemoration of 66 people dying in any forum let alone this group.
>
>
No, I don't think it's particularly dignified to piss all over their
memory by using them as a cover story for your fat arsehole of a
goalkeeper either.
Brian
--
*****************************************
# Brian Russell br...@spider.com #
# Spider Software +44 (0)131 475 7033 #
# Leith, Scotland www.spider.com #
Brian Russell
Alasdair Allan wrote:
>
This has nothing to do with football and I suspect a reply won't
go down well with everybody but you can't really let pish like
the stuff below go unchallenged.
> This is getting out of hand.
>
> 1. Orange bands are celebrating Protestantism and the enlightenment that
> led to the disestablishment of the Catholic church within much of northern
> europe.
First load of bollocks, Orange bands celebrate the victory of William
of Orange, it's a straightforward bit of tribal triumphalism
> 2. There is nothing, per se, anti-Catholic about celebrating Protestantism.
otoh, there is everything anti-RC about a culture whose favourite phrase
after No Surrender is Fuck The Pope.
> 4. As an atheist I am glad that the enlightenment brought about by the
> formation of Protestantism allows me to go on to a higher form of religious
> acceptance (none).
This is classic stuff, protestantism (I'll assume you meant
presbyterianism
since you don't specify) promotes atheism. It's right up there with
fenian
equals early terrorist. You should go on the stage.
>
> 5. Rangers symbolism as an outlet for Protestant celebration led directly
> from Celtics formation as a sectarian organisation founded to promote
> bigotry in the East End of Glasgow. Before that Rangers could not be
> described as having a culture related to this in any way.
>
More pish, Rangers dedication to anti-RC bigotry stemmed from the influx
of the shipbuilding population from Ireland. This post-dates the
formation
of Celtic by at least a decade.
> Its time to give up the pseudo "hard done by innocents" image. Celtic's
> foundation and whole raison d'etre are to promote and kindle division
> within Scotland. If Celtic did not exist, there would be a much stronger
> sense of pride in Scotland. IMO, a strong enough sense of pride to have
> seen our independance years ago.
>
So basically what you're saying is that you don't like the fact that the
Rangers support is pro-Union and anti-RC in outlook and you blame
Celtic.
Grow up.
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Turning the Ibrox disaster into sectarian propoganda (wasRe: Gazza
>wanted by the IRA?)
>From: "Alasdair Allan" <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>
>Date: 21/01/98 11:47 GMT
>Message-id: <01bd265f$921d8a40$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>
>that
>> Goram's interest in the NI Loyalist persuasion has only come about since
>his
>> move to TFOD. I doubt very much that he had a clue that there was any
>> significance to the name Hbernian prior to his move there. He has yet to
>> publicly and categorically refute the allegations made (re his armband)
>against
>> him in the Sunday and Daily national press of last week.
>
>has been on January 2nd. January 2nd is significant as the anniversary of
>the Ibrox disaster.
>
>speculation which has not been made in the past, it is not necessary to run
>chips on their shoulders larger than Everest.
>
>commemoration of 66 people dying in any forum let alone this group.
>
>Cheers,
>
> Alasdair Allan
Look Alasdair I've made it perfectly clear in other posts that I am prepared to
accept your reason for Goram's armband. Your accusation that I am intent on
insulting the memories the deceased (a handful of whom were family friends) I
shall treat with the contempt it deserves.
As you may well be aware, the press are making these allegations I am rasing
the question of why Goram is keeping schtum about it. Or when directly
questioned by a reporter from the Scotsman replied "I need to speak to Walter
about this; here's my agent's phone number". If Goram (or indeed anyone from
Rangers) provided your reason that would be end of story, at present Alasdair,
its just you.
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Disband Celtic - free Scotland (wasRe: Gazza wanted by the IRA?)
>From: "Alasdair Allan" <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>
>Date: 21/01/98 11:47 GMT
>Message-id: <01bd2662$0df432c0$b07a989e@ic
>
>This is getting out of hand.
>
>1. Orange bands are celebrating Protestantism and the enlightenment that
>led to the disestablishment of the Catholic church within much of northern
>europe.
So they keep on saying. The experience of people living along the routes of
their marches would prove that they are more interested in intimidating and
threatening Catholics. This has frequently led to people guarding Catholic
churches from arson attacks in the lead up (often unsuccessfully).
>
>2. There is nothing, per se, anti-Catholic about celebrating Protestantism.
> It is not anti-Catholic to state that the Catholic church spent hundreds
>of years persecuting scientists and stifling economic development.
Eloquently put. I can only agree.
>3. Scotland played a leading role in this schism between the catholic and
>protestant churches and therefore its people can have a sense of pride
>about their foresight to move to a style of religion that only three
>hundred years later the Papacy would move towards.
>
Again, yes. Although I think some people in the Western Isles and the North
East may think differently. I would also hope that Scotland's people are not
proud of the anti-Catholicism that also grew from that time. (39 Catholics in
Glasgow in circa 1790 but 43 anti Catholic organisations in the city).
>5. Rangers symbolism as an outlet for Protestant celebration led directly
>from Celtics formation as a sectarian organisation founded to promote
>bigotry in the East End of Glasgow. Before that Rangers could not be
>described as having a culture related to this in any way.
>
So putting food on the tables of immigrant Irish in the east end is somehow a
promotion of bigotry. I take it therefor that your opinion is that any
organisation formed for the purpose of meeting the acute needs of any ethnic
group promotes bigotry. I wonder what your views are on the Vietnamese Mental
Health Project?
Most observers agree that the relationship between Celtic and Rangers was
excellent till about 1912, some 24 years after Celtic's formation. I suppose
that given the amount of money they could earn for each other it would be
madness to have it any other way.
The influx of H&W workers to Govan from Belfast seems to have been the turning
point in Rangers accepting this mantle.
>"hard done by innocents" image. Celtic's
>foundation and whole raison d'etre are to promote and kindle division
>within Scotland. If Celtic did not exist, there would be a much stronger
>sense of pride in Scotland. IMO, a strong enough sense of pride to have
>seen our independance years ago.
Ah, so its punters like me who are holding Scotland back. I'm not welcome then
is that it? Should I fuck off back to the first foreign country I trace my
roots to, and then Scotland can continue on her glorious path to complete
nationhood? Yes let's move away from this modern nonsensical concept of multi
culturalism, its Scotland's stumbling block to progress, democracy and freedom.
>
>And before you come back with the "then Rangers would only be a little
>club" you might want to remember that Rangers, from their founding,
>uncorrupted (as Celtic have corrupted us with religion) days were a massive
>club, needing to move to Ibrox park and getting crowds of 10-20,000 in the
>1880s (before Celtic formed). Massive for the time and comparable to
>100,000 crowds in later years.
>
As I've pointed out Alasdair, Rangers allowed itself to become corrupted. The
relationship between the clubs was fine (even to the point of going to each
others' social functions) until the influx mentioned above.
BTW Rangers almost went bust in 1883 only being kept solvent by a loan of £30
so if there were indeed crowds that big, I wonder where the money went?
rfcblue
May I remind all that the Heading of this Newsgroup.
I know the education system is bad but surely you can read or you would not
be posting.
This NG is called :
alt.sports.soccer.european.uk
so lets get talking soccer
ban the bigots
The Bluebells are Blue
Rwvsmith
Please.
Stevie D
Alasdair Allan <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<01bd2662$0df432c0$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>...
> 1. Orange bands are celebrating Protestantism and the enlightenment that
> led to the disestablishment of the Catholic church within much of
northern
> europe.
The average member of an Orange band wouldn't know how to spell
enlightenment or disestablishment let alone know that they were actually
celebrating those very things.
I think your quoting the "Wee Orange Handbook" here rather than stating
what OO members say themselves ...usually ugh, duh and ehmm!!!
> 2. There is nothing, per se, anti-Catholic about celebrating
Protestantism.
There shouldn't be.But you know damn well that anti Catholisism is the main
reason why these morons are prepared to make such a tit of themselves.
Why do they celebrate the Boyne rather than the Reformation?
>Rangers symbolism as an outlet for Protestant celebration led directly
> from Celtics formation as a sectarian organisation founded to promote
> bigotry in the East End of Glasgow. Before that Rangers could not be
> described as having a culture related to this in any way.
The Rangers "culture" can be seen and heard at every match by anyone with
eyes and ears.
> Its time to give up the pseudo "hard done by innocents" image. Celtic's
> foundation and whole raison d'etre are to promote and kindle division
> within Scotland. If Celtic did not exist, there would be a much stronger
> sense of pride in Scotland. IMO, a strong enough sense of pride to have
> seen our independance years ago.
Both clubs are just as guilty as each other of kindling division. It's in
thier financial interests to do so.
How on earth you can equate Rangers with independence is laughable.
Your supporters haven't got a Scottish song or flag between them.
At last years League Cup Final Hearts fans began singing "Flower of
Scotland" in response to your English anthem "Swing Low". You jeered at
them en mass and broke into a chorus of "Rule Brittania"!!!
Murray and Findlay placed an ad in the ""Scotsman" during the 92 election
campaign asking people NOT to vote for parties supporting a Scottish
Parliament!!!
Walter Smith even penned his signature to this arrogance.!!!
>
Stevie
Camel J.
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:42:00 +0000, Brian Russell <br...@spider.com>
bellowed forth:
>
>> 4. As an atheist I am glad that the enlightenment brought about by the
>> formation of Protestantism allows me to go on to a higher form of religious
>> acceptance (none).
>
>This is classic stuff, protestantism (I'll assume you meant
>presbyterianism
>since you don't specify) promotes atheism. It's right up there with
>fenian
>equals early terrorist. You should go on the stage.
>>
Before Protestantism anyone who was not a Catholic was, for want of a
better word, fucked over by the all-powerful Church.
All of a sudden the people got a choice of what they wanted to be -
(Catholic or Protestant.) which in turn led to the religious explosion
and our multicultural society. I'm not for either side - i'm an
Agnostic myself, but I can see that if it were not for a major
challenge to the authority of the Catholic Church then perhaps we
would still live in fear of being burned at the stake for Heresy.
Well anyway, back to football.....
Sammy Lives
"Alasdair Allan" <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I'm not the slightest bit interested in the history of the Old Firm
and the current/past sectarian happenings (though I do think those
that devote their lives to Orange Walks/whatever the other side do are
people in desperate need of a life), so I won't comment on anything
else on this thread, but....
>Given the ease of winding up the idiots, if I were Gazza, I'd take up flute
>lessons and start playing every game.
That line is bloody brilliant. Just imagine if he did start flute
lessons ? Do you think McCann would write another letter of complaint
? And would Rangers allow him to do it ?
Maybe I'm in a weird mood tonight, but its one of the few posts on
this newsgroup that's actually made me, literally, LOL :)
Sammy Lives ~ Dunfermline Athletic Fanzine
sammy...@dial.pipex.com
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/sammy.lives
Peter McLaughlin
In article <34c1c8a8...@news.premier.co.uk>, "Camel J."
<cjoc...@hotmail.com> writes
>I heard yesterday that the death threat note that was sent to
>Gascoigne after his flute-playing gesture was written in Gaelic, had
>an Irish postmark and apparently threatened to have the IRA come round
>to his house and do him over. Has anyone heard any more on this? As
>much as I dislike Gazza, I would hate to see him get knee-capped (or
>worse)
It's extremely unlikely. They have nothing to gain. Politicians
possibly, but the FGB no chance. I'm sure members of the IRA have far
worse things to worry about than Paul Gascoigne pretending to play a
flute.
I'm sick of hearing about it. He's just a daft boy. Anyone who's foolish
enough to make "death" threats to the FGB are just daft boys. I get
"death" threats all the time: "I'm gonnae kill ye, ye mouthy wee
shite!", but I'm still alive and kicking.
Anyway, the IRA would never sign an ex-Rangers player.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Peter McLaughlin
In article <6a0i73$mit$1...@nclient5-gui.server.virgin.net>, Paul Grayson
<paul.g...@virgin.net> writes
>>I don't think he has the intelligence to comprehend the sectarian
>>division and the depth of feeling. He appears to have the mind of a
>>schoolboy and he's far too stupid to realise what he's done.
>
>That's a bit rich - sectarianism is quite frankly the pastime of extreemly
>stupid people - blowing each other up due to minor differences over a
>religion whose main teaching is for people to be nice to each other.
I always think it's wonderful how English people refuse to acknowledge
their nations hand in other countries problems. South Africa? Yeah,
support Nelson Mandela against those shitty white people. India? Ghandi,
what a movie (are those extra-large M&S Y-fronts he's wearing?) Those
bloody holligan Irish keep fighting each other, you'd think they'd learn
to get along by this time.
Fuck off, son.
James Bernard Shaw said that he felt sorry for the English because they
have no sense of their own history (i.e. they only know about the
bastard Plantagenets and Tudors but fuck all about their own people). It
could be said that the Irish are unfortunate because they know too much
about their own history.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Sammy Lives
"Stevie D" <stephen...@enterprise.net> wrote:
<snip>
>At last years League Cup Final Hearts fans began singing "Flower of
>Scotland" in response to your English anthem "Swing Low". You jeered at
>them en mass and broke into a chorus of "Rule Brittania"!!!
Stevie, I don't actually think Rangers fans are anti-Scottish or
pro-English/British, but you know what us fans are like - do anything
to wind the other fans up and if you see they don't like it, keep
doing it to.
>Murray and Findlay placed an ad in the ""Scotsman" during the 92 election
>campaign asking people NOT to vote for parties supporting a Scottish
>Parliament!!!
>Walter Smith even penned his signature to this arrogance.!!!
Well, its their money and that's their choice. If Rangers fans do what
they say (or because Sean Connery says so for the SNP, etc) then
that's just them showing their narrow-mindedness. Its Murray/Findlay's
prerogative to exploit those people if they wish to do so.
Peter McLaughlin
In article <01bd2662$0df432c0$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>, Alasdair
Allan <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> writes
>1. Orange bands are celebrating Protestantism and the enlightenment that
>led to the disestablishment of the Catholic church within much of northern
>hundreds years that have given the Western world the wealth it now holds.
Orangeism and protestantism are not the same thing. Orangeism comes from
the fact that the Royal family of Holland come from the house of Orange,
i.e. King Billy. The house of Orange is still the the royal family of
Holland.
Protestantism came to Scotland from Martin Luther via John Calvin & John
Knox. The first Reformation was in 1559. This is a long way from 1690. I
respect those protestants and I respect protestants now. I have no time
for shitey wee orange bastards that know fuck all and don't even know
what protestantism is. Orangeism is about celebrating 1690, about
celebrating Oliver Cromwell butchering Irish (and Scottish, take a look
around East Lothian) people.
>2. There is nothing, per se, anti-Catholic about celebrating Protestantism.
> It is not anti-Catholic to state that the Catholic church spent hundreds
>of years persecuting scientists and stifling economic development. While
>it may be less important since the 1950s and Vatican II to remember this it
>is no less an important part of European and world culture.
It is not anti-protestant to point out that thousands of people were
burnt at the stake in Scotland during your so-called enlightenment for
the sake of their religion. The Spanish Inquistion had the sense to
realise that all you have to do is butcher a couple and give it maximum
publicity, and the rest will do what their told.
Here in Scotland the just ran around hanging and burning the papists by
the dozen.
>
>3. Scotland played a leading role in this schism between the catholic and
>protestant churches and therefore its people can have a sense of pride
>about their foresight to move to a style of religion that only three
>hundred years later the Papacy would move towards.
>
Here in Scotland most people wern't bothered either way, but financial
considerations put them against the established church. If you look at
most "liberation" movements over the centuries you'll find it's pretty
much the same.
>4. As an atheist I am glad that the enlightenment brought about by the
>formation of Protestantism allows me to go on to a higher form of religious
>acceptance (none).
>
As an atheist who was brought up in a formal religion I am glad that I
know religion thoroughly and I will never fall prey to any chancers that
come by.
>5. Rangers symbolism as an outlet for Protestant celebration led directly
>from Celtics formation as a sectarian organisation founded to promote
>bigotry in the East End of Glasgow. Before that Rangers could not be
>described as having a culture related to this in any way.
>
Shite. Rangers became the choice of the Scottish establishment after
their favourites, Queens Park the perennial amateur side, were humped by
the incomers. Before that they were just another Scottissh team. They
never really took up the anti-catholic sword until the 1920s, which
caried through to the eighties at least.
>Given the ease of winding up the idiots, if I were Gazza, I'd take up flute
>lessons and start playing every game.
>
I agree, it's hardly worth the trouble. I'm more pleased about the fact
that we wound him up so far he came on to the pitch in a rage, and
Gascoigne in a rage cannot play good football. He's red card material
every step he takes.
>Its time to give up the pseudo "hard done by innocents" image. Celtic's
>foundation and whole raison d'etre are to promote and kindle division
>within Scotland. If Celtic did not exist, there would be a much stronger
>sense of pride in Scotland. IMO, a strong enough sense of pride to have
>seen our independance years ago.
Nice try
>
>And before you come back with the "then Rangers would only be a little
>club" you might want to remember that Rangers, from their founding,
>uncorrupted (as Celtic have corrupted us with religion) days were a massive
>club, needing to move to Ibrox park and getting crowds of 10-20,000 in the
>1880s (before Celtic formed). Massive for the time and comparable to
>100,000 crowds in later years.
>
Rangers were a Mickey Mouse team and have only survived this long
because of their rivalry with the "interlopers"
--
Peter McLaughlin
Peter McLaughlin
In article <01bd265e$15aa3720$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>, Alasdair
Allan <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>Repeated ad nauseum all over Possil and Royston (those without phones
>making the trip to the call box outside the high-riser).
>
your joke has scoofed right over the tap o' ma heid.
I'm still a Tim though, and at least half of the season-tickets at
Paradise on a Saturday come from outside of Glasgow.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Peter McLaughlin
In article <01bd265f$921d8a40$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>, Alasdair
Allan <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>
>
>Goram wore an armband on January 2nd. As he always has done when the game
>has been on January 2nd. January 2nd is significant as the anniversary of
>the Ibrox disaster.
>
>It is not a matter for public discussion, it is not a matter for
>speculation which has not been made in the past, it is not necessary to run
>to the press to counter fucking SICK allegations from a crowd with bigger
>chips on their shoulders larger than Everest.
>
>And it is certainly not humerous, funny, appropriate to insult the
>commemoration of 66 people dying in any forum let alone this group.
>
people on this ng (shut the fuck up JoBbhy) and I don't think I ever
have, so maybe it's just coming out of your paranoid head.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Peter McLaughlin
In article <34c4ccd...@news.premier.co.uk>, "Camel J."
<cjoc...@hotmail.com> writes
>On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:18:30 -0600, guinn...@webtv.net (Arthur
>Guinness) bellowed forth:
>
>>The IRA didn't blow up people because of religion, they did it to try
>>and get British rule out of Northern Ireland by force, which is still
>>wrong. It's the unionists terrorists that kill and bomb because of
>>religion.
>>
>But the IRA may want to make an example of him......
That's not they way the operate. A publicly acknowledged wanker is not a
legitimate target unless he's a politician. They could have killed Ian
Paisley years ago but he's worth more to them alive.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Peter McLaughlin
In article <DkOzSIAA...@sound-doctor.demon.co.uk>, William Mack
<Sou...@sound-doctor.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>Religion should not play any part in football, but in Glasgow, sadly, it does.
Sanctimonious bastard
>I
>really don't think the IRA would harm him, because it would be totally counter-
>productive to other things that are going on in the bigger picture. The sooner
>this subject gets dropped the better, he's been fined, he's apologised and he
>knows what he did was stupid. When he made the gesture, I dont think he realised
>the backlash that would come with it. Although the Celtic fans were verbally
>abusing him, he gets paid a lot of money and should be professional and ignore
>it. (shades of Cantona). Its sad that its come to this.
--
Peter McLaughlin
FBC Houlford
Paul Louis (pa...@i8spamacorns.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Personally I think Gazza's actions are not that dissimilar to Teddy
: Sherringham's at the Arsenal-Man U match when he kissed his badge in
: front of the Arsenal fans. Both did it to get a rise out of the fans
: who were baiting them. The only difference is, one did it in an aura
: of hatred with a long and bitter history, imitating the actions of a
: group who everyone has nothing but the utmost contempt for, the other
: pretended to play the flute.
Excellent Paul, excellent :-)
-Ben
PapaBear
A particulary stupid comment. You may be wishing to prove a point, you may
just be in from the pub, but using the Holocaust as a foil to bolster a non
existant arguement is disrespectful, IMHO.
pb
--
XXXXXXXXXX
PJS <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<N.012098.221525.30@winwaed>...
Alasdair Allan
Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<T1gHKVAm...@arapaho.demon.co.uk>...
> In article <01bd265e$15aa3720$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>, Alasdair
> Allan <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> writes
> >
> >Repeated ad nauseum all over Possil and Royston (those without phones
> >making the trip to the call box outside the high-riser).
> >
> Where exactly is Possil, or Royston? I'm afraid that not being a weedgie
> your joke has scoofed right over the tap o' ma heid.
>
> I'm still a Tim though, and at least half of the season-tickets at
> Paradise on a Saturday come from outside of Glasgow.
You should support your local club instead of glory hunting.
William Mack
>
>Sanctimonious bastard
How am I being sanctimonious? Dont you think Scottish Football and this
ng would be more beneficial if we could do away with this bullshit.
(bigots need not apply: your days are numbered)
1 other thing: this was posted nearly a week ago. why not reply sooner??
I get the feeling you are just bored.
--
"Why can't we all just get along"
William Mack
Alasdair Allan
> >led to the disestablishment of the Catholic church within much of
northern
> >europe.
>
of
> their marches would prove that they are more interested in intimidating
and
> threatening Catholics. This has frequently led to people guarding
Catholic
> churches from arson attacks in the lead up (often unsuccessfully).
I live right on one of the busiest marching routes and have never seen any
trouble. Its just an annoyance as I'm not particular to their noise
disturbing my peace and quiet.
> >5. Rangers symbolism as an outlet for Protestant celebration led
directly
> >from Celtics formation as a sectarian organisation founded to promote
> >bigotry in the East End of Glasgow. Before that Rangers could not be
> >described as having a culture related to this in any way.
> >
>
> So putting food on the tables of immigrant Irish in the east end is
somehow a
> promotion of bigotry. I take it therefor that your opinion is that any
> organisation formed for the purpose of meeting the acute needs of any
ethnic
> group promotes bigotry. I wonder what your views are on the Vietnamese
Mental
> Health Project?
"Putting food an the tables of immigrant Irish" was already being done.
However, the organisations doing this were, sin of sins, Protestant
charities. Brother Walfrid could not allow this, especially as they may
"be turned from the true religion" to the proddies, so he formed Celtic to
raise funds and divide the community. This is sourced directly from the
recent Celtic history "Dreams and Songs to Sing".
> Most observers agree that the relationship between Celtic and Rangers was
> excellent till about 1912, some 24 years after Celtic's formation. I
suppose
> that given the amount of money they could earn for each other it would be
> madness to have it any other way.
> The influx of H&W workers to Govan from Belfast seems to have been the
turning
> point in Rangers accepting this mantle.
Given that anti-catholic sectarianism did not become a factor in Belfast
until after the partition of Ireland, 1912 would seem too early for this to
be causal.
> >"hard done by innocents" image. Celtic's
> >foundation and whole raison d'etre are to promote and kindle division
> >within Scotland. If Celtic did not exist, there would be a much
stronger
> >sense of pride in Scotland. IMO, a strong enough sense of pride to have
> >seen our independance years ago.
>
> Ah, so its punters like me who are holding Scotland back. I'm not
welcome then
> is that it? Should I fuck off back to the first foreign country I trace
my
> roots to, and then Scotland can continue on her glorious path to complete
> nationhood? Yes let's move away from this modern nonsensical concept of
multi
> culturalism, its Scotland's stumbling block to progress, democracy and
freedom.
That is not what is written.
> >And before you come back with the "then Rangers would only be a little
> >club" you might want to remember that Rangers, from their founding,
> >uncorrupted (as Celtic have corrupted us with religion) days were a
massive
> >club, needing to move to Ibrox park and getting crowds of 10-20,000 in
the
> >1880s (before Celtic formed). Massive for the time and comparable to
> >100,000 crowds in later years.
> >
>
> As I've pointed out Alasdair, Rangers allowed itself to become corrupted.
The
> relationship between the clubs was fine (even to the point of going to
each
> others' social functions) until the influx mentioned above.
True, Rangers became corrupted. Whether this was "allowed" tro happen or
an inevitable result of the formation of a bigotted organisation in
Parkhead is a moot point.
> BTW Rangers almost went bust in 1883 only being kept solvent by a loan of
£30
> so if there were indeed crowds that big, I wonder where the money went?
Probably because they had just begun work on a third or fourth enclosed
ground in ten years as their playing arenas quickly became too small for
the crowds they were drawing. (I say third or fourth as I don't have a
reference at hand to confirm the date of their move between the original
Ibrox and the current site after leaving Kinning Park.
Alasdair Allan
Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> Protestantism came to Scotland from Martin Luther via John Calvin & John
> Knox. The first Reformation was in 1559. This is a long way from 1690. I
> respect those protestants and I respect protestants now. I have no time
> for shitey wee orange bastards that know fuck all and don't even know
> what protestantism is. Orangeism is about celebrating 1690, about
> celebrating Oliver Cromwell butchering Irish (and Scottish, take a look
> around East Lothian) people.
Cromwell's victory guaranteed the right of protestantism that would have
been taken away had they lost. That doesnt right any wrongs, its a simple
fact and can be celebrated as such
> >2. There is nothing, per se, anti-Catholic about celebrating
Protestantism.
> > It is not anti-Catholic to state that the Catholic church spent
hundreds
> >of years persecuting scientists and stifling economic development.
While
> >it may be less important since the 1950s and Vatican II to remember this
it
> >is no less an important part of European and world culture.
>
> It is not anti-protestant to point out that thousands of people were
> burnt at the stake in Scotland during your so-called enlightenment for
> the sake of their religion. The Spanish Inquistion had the sense to
> realise that all you have to do is butcher a couple and give it maximum
> publicity, and the rest will do what their told.
I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition to be mentioned.
> Here in Scotland the just ran around hanging and burning the papists by
> the dozen.
Unconsionable. Uncelebrated.
> >5. Rangers symbolism as an outlet for Protestant celebration led
directly
> >from Celtics formation as a sectarian organisation founded to promote
> >bigotry in the East End of Glasgow. Before that Rangers could not be
> >described as having a culture related to this in any way.
> >
> Shite. Rangers became the choice of the Scottish establishment after
> their favourites, Queens Park the perennial amateur side, were humped by
> the incomers. Before that they were just another Scottissh team. They
> never really took up the anti-catholic sword until the 1920s, which
> caried through to the eighties at least.
And is now dead. Rangers were not formed as an outlet for bigotry, it came
about because of Celtic's existence as a discriminatory organisation
founded to promote seperatism.
PapaBear
Thank christ for this Ronnie; at last we can get intae some serious
disagreement here; the Old Firm love-in between us was starting to give all
concerned a bad name :)
let's get cracking.
> >The pervading atmosphere of the oasis of tranquility and harmony that is
> >the "Hun dressing room" is more likely
> >
>
> Yes, refined and ecumenical except if you are a pape who wants to make
the Sign
> of the Cross as you enter the pitch just as you did in Germany, Italy,
England
> etc. The same dressing room that has housed, in recent times, certain
> individuals charged with anti Catholic sectarian offences.
1. Aye; I'll give you that one; the requests (not instructions btw,
requests) to the Italians not to cross themselves were unacceptable. The
reasons given to them were that the club had strong Proddie traditions and
crossing themselves could turn a section of the support against the players
concerned.
Personally, I find it wrong, but there ye are.
2. Which individuals? which offenses? Enlighten me please.
> >
> >Gascoigne......was simply saying "Up yours, you Tim bastards!" in an
eloquent
> >and witty manner.
> >
>
>..... I have serious doubts that imitating a "music playing"
> associate/supporter of an anti RC organisation is either eloquent or
witty.
It is a damn sight more sharp witted than turning round and giving them the
fingers. The Gazman
knew exactly how to get back at them in the most effective way and he did
so brilliantly.
Now, work this one out. When he did it at Ibrox (the flute thing) I was
much annoyed by it, becasue I think his action there legitimised the Orange
links with RFC; however, his action at Celtic Park was
retaliatory and designed to rile the Tims rather than show support for
marching bands.
>
> >Personally, I found his mime very funny - as did Pat Nevin on the
"Channel
> >5 Tim Hour" aka Live and Dangerous.
>
> No it wasn't funny. It was both stupid and sad. A flick of the "V"s
would
> have been much more appropriate.
but dddduuuuuuuullllllllllll, crass and mundane and worse than
that...ineffective
> As to why he apologised and was fined, well
> that's the business of TFOD: I'm really not interested.
Of course not. Why WOULD you be interested in RFC actually making a public
stand against sectarianism; it doesn't fit your (pathalogical) stereotyping
of RFC as knuckle-scraping bigots.
> He fully knew the implications of his actions, I beleive he simply
couldn't
> stop himself from doing it,
na-ah. That's why he did it, because he knew the implications and he knew
that he would
get one over on you by doing it.
his lack of judgement as to our sense of hiumour is
> a figment of your imagination.
Oh, come on! You lot are the most pompous, humourless, anally-retentive,
pious, hypocritical bunch of whiny bastards since the Wee Frees. No offence
:)
> >things in any proportion. Any humour you may have disappears under a
> >blanket of bitterness and inferiority complex when it's Rangers that
are
> >in question.
>
> If that is the case then why has it not been such an issue amongst the
fans or
> indeed the fanzines?
Not such an issue??? heelllooooo?????? Anybody home?
> Winning a European award for fighting against bigotry and discrimination
hardly
> strikes me as being the result of posturing and bluffing.
This award was what exactly?
"The Irish National Medal for Humping Proddy Bastards at Every Opportunity"
Award?
> Campaigning on
> behalf of the Asian community in Scotland: I take it you think that is
> posturing and bluffing.
Yeah, we don't campaign on behalf of the Asian community...we just sign
Asian players:
Celtic FC remain Lily White (as far as Scots are concerned) in their
signing policy if not in their moral standards.
> Convincing
> the education authorities to tackle bigotry in the education system:
posturing
> and bluffing?
THIS I cannot believe. THIS is TOO much. The only, the sole, the single
cause of religious intolerance in Scotland is the fact that the Catholic
church insists on seperate education for Catholic kids. In short the
Catholic church is entirely responsible for the continued division in
Scottish society.
I lived in Germany for a number of years, where all kids go to the local
school. Potestant, Catholic, Muslim whatever. The result? Religious
harmony.
Celtic should try convincing the religious authorities to change their
education policy before annoying education authorities about matters out
with their control.
> Withdrawing more season tickets from fans in one season than
> TFOD have in the past 10 years for perceived sectarian politicking:
posturing
> and bluffing?
This is according to the Celtic View no doubt. You have no idea how many
people have been banned from Ibrox, do you? None at all...and yet you have
no problem coming out with this stuff. I personally know of three cases
where people have been banned two for sectarianism and one for racism.
> Allowing your victorious cup winning first team to be heard
> singing sectarian songs on live telly and saying nothing about it: sorry
that's
> your lot :)
Well, you're lot hasn't exactly had many opportunities to be victorious and
triumphalist ;)
Anyway, those paragons of virtue in blue were singing the sanitised
authorised version. Really. Honest. Trust me I'm a doctor. Would I lie to
you?
> But then I forgot that David Murray instigated that great idea to drag
TFOD
> into the next century "The Hun Campaign Against That Bad Thing Called
> Sectarianism That Doesn't Exist At Ibrox Anyway And If Anyone Says It
Does
> They'll Get Either Pelters In The Rangers News Or Banned From The Ibrox
Press
> Box (Or Both).
Your sarcasm re Murray is misplaced. He has done more to advance Scottish
football (after all, without Murray do you think Celtic would be in their
present state? Methinks not, since everything you do is done as a reaction
to leads taken and developments made at Ibrox) and more to combat
sectarianism than anyone else. Which is not to say that the battle is won,
not by a long shot..but huge steps have been taken since the Mint came to
Ibrox.
> >Was Tommy Burns fined and forced to publicly apologise for his remarks
> >about a bias against Celtic on the part of the officials- with the
> >implication that they all were corrupt masons? Was he fuck!
>
> He did indeed apologise (eventually).
That must have been in the Celtic View, too, then, because no one else
heard it.
> However I don't recall any quote that
> could be described as implicating referees being corrupt masons -I'm sure
there
> are none anyway :) - perhaps you can illuminate me further on this one.
Yeah, sure, I keep a "Big Bumper Book of Misquotes and Slights Against
Rangers", now where is it........
> >The
> >"plucky underdog, persecuted for their religion and heritage" myth was
> >further propogated and a whole range of decent men slandered by one
(Burns)
> >of the four most powerful men in Scottish football, whilst another
colluded
> >with it (McCann).
>
> When, where, how????
Burns and Stark gave us the biased ref (nod-wink-hint Masons one and all)
and McCann said and did nothing about it.
>
> >Meanwhile the other two, Murray and Smith, behaved with
> >the dignity and poise that we have come to expect from both men and held
> >their tongues, thereby ensuring that any flames of division were not
> >fanned.
>
> Just like Murray held his tongue with Gerry McTaig last week. Yes,
tremendous
> poise and dignity.
McNee is, as they say in the Polynesian Islands, a fucking wanker. He comes
out with anti Rangers stuff, deliberately mind you, to promote his own
standing, week after week after week. Murray was absolutely right to make
it clear what he thinks of the tosser.
It seems the only thing that gets the Tin man upset is
> when TFOD are accused of sectarianism; it does seem to annoy him
somewhat.
> Accuse TFOD of anything else and there's hardly a whimper from the man.
Probably becasue he's done so much and worked so hard to change things at
Ibrox. Wouldn't you get pissed of if all the good work you did was
deliberately ignored just so that some tosser can try to get brownie points
either for his own club or his newspaper or his image?
> >As I said before, the depth of hatred and bitterness felt by Celtic (FC
&
> >fans) for Rangers is so intense that they are incapable of behaving in
any
> >other way.
> >
>
> You're just guessing now as to the depth of bitterness and hatred. If
you had
> half a clue as to how SOME people feel about Orange bands you might begin
to
> understand their anger and reactions. As to Celtic FC, I have already
posted
> that they should have kept out of this.
No, Ronnie, I'm not guessing. I have seen the reactions of Rangers fans at
old firm games
when the IRA songs start at the Celtic end, particularly when these songs
followed some IRA
atrocity. If the hatred and bitterness felt by Celtic fans towards pathetic
wee men in bowler hats
and beer-gutted bullies banging drums and playing flutes is a tenth as deep
as the hatred Rangers fans feel towards the IRA and their supporters in
Glasgow's east end then it's very deep indeed.
> I suppose, Papa, this is the icing on the cake.
>
> Gazza makes an inflammatory gesture that is condemned by just about
everyone
> (your good self excluded here of course) but in (your) reality the
problem lies
> with Celtic and it's fans. Nice one!
Yes, it was condemned by just about everyone and not by me. That doesn't
mean they are all right and I am wrong. I've explained why I think it was a
funny gesture and that has bugger all to do with sectarianism {I would hope
that even someone dim enough to support Celtic can see that I'm not a bigot
;) }.
Celtic fans reported the gesture, Rangers FC dealt with it, Celtic FC and
the media continued to make an issue of it long after RFC had fined Gazza
and made him apologise ...and I still maintain they were wrong to do so.
> You can stand up now :)
You can wake up now, I've finished :)
pb
--
XXXXXXXXXX
pa...@easynet.co.uk
> led to the disestablishment of the Catholic church within much of northern
> hundreds years that have given the Western world the wealth it now holds.
>
Sammy Lives
"Alasdair Allan" <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>> I'm still a Tim though, and at least half of the season-tickets at
>> Paradise on a Saturday come from outside of Glasgow.
>You should support your local club instead of glory hunting.
Exactly. I think its the point Peter made is the reason many people
dislike the Old Firm (team or fans). A bit like Man U in England
really.
I don't think his point is something to really be proud of.
Peter McLaughlin
>
>Cromwell's victory guaranteed the right of protestantism that would have
>been taken away had they lost. That doesnt right any wrongs, its a simple
>fact and can be celebrated as such
Cromwell's victory, in Scotland, was of English Independents over the
Presbyterian international. That is to say there was a dispute between
two different strands of radical protestantism.
There is nothing wrong with celebrating protestantism but the Orange
walks are triumphalist about victories in battle over RCs. That's a
completely different kettle iof fish.
>
>
>
>And is now dead. Rangers were not formed as an outlet for bigotry, it came
>about because of Celtic's existence as a discriminatory organisation
>founded to promote seperatism.
>
Immigrant communities around the world bond together, especially in the
face of bias and persecution. The Jewish community in the east End of
London did so before moving out to more affluent areas. Now the Bengalis
are doing the same thing. It is not bigotry to come together as strength
comes from unity.
Celtic was founded as a charitable organisation, not as an outlet for
bigotry and did not embrace discrimination.
--
Peter McLaughlin
PJS
On 21/01/98 16:42, in message <01bf6471$a172ca80$e1075cc3@wubs>, "PapaBear"
<p...@Ibrox.co.uk> wrote:
> A particulary stupid comment. You may be wishing to prove a point, you may
> just be in from the pub, but using the Holocaust as a foil to bolster a non
> existant arguement is disrespectful, IMHO.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You miss the whole point. Civil war is not funny. He's supposed to be above
this sort of thing. The management and the supporters organisations at both
Celtic and Rangers are always saying how opposed they are to sectarianism, how
they want all this to stop and so on ... and a PLAYER goes and does his bit for
bigotry and hatred. Don't tell me he's too ignorant to know better - he may be
a bit thick, but he's had all this explained to him after the first
flute-playing incident - if he hasn't understood why he shouldn't do it, he
isn't just thick, he's in need of residential care. No: Gascoigne knew exactly
what he was doing, and it's no joke - he supports one side in the sectarian
divide and he has made that known. Trying to paper over this by coming out with
cliches about him being unable to resist playing the clown is deceit. Was he
clowning around when he beat his wife up? He's got a nasty side, and the
clown's mask has slipped once again. Whatever happens now is his own fault.
Paul Louis
On Fri, 23 Jan 98 07:35:36 GMT, P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk (PJS) wrote:
>You miss the whole point. Civil war is not funny. [...] Whatever happens now is his own fault.
Ever heard the phrase 2 wrongs don't make a right? Murdering someone
because they made an, admittedly stupid and immature, gesture is just
a tad over the top, wouldn't you say? Where do we stop? Should
Ketsbaia be shot for kicking an advertising hoarding? Sheringham
knifed for kissing his badge? Macateer given a leathal injection for
that bloody shampoo advert?
--
Paul Louis - pa...@i8spamacorns.demon.co.uk
Remove the word "spam" from my Email address to reply.
Newcastle United FC - 71st time's the charm.
"The lads really ran their socks into the ground." ALEX FERGUSON
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Re: Catholics fucked up Scotland send em home! (wasRe: Gazza wanted
>by the IRA?)
>From: "rfcblue" <rfc...@dial.pipex.com>
>Date: 21/01/98 18:27 GMT
>Message-id: <6a5eos$sr3$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>
Yes, rfc, allow us to be Scottish too.
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Re: Gazza wanted by the IRA? Long post! min. football content.
>From: "PapaBear" <p...@Ibrox.co.uk>
>Date: 22/01/98 16:39 GMT
>Message-id: <01bf64f7$50027020$75065cc3@wubs>
>
>Thank christ for this Ronnie; at last we can get intae some serious
>disagreement here; the Old Firm love-in between us was starting to give all
>concerned a bad name :)
>
>let's get cracking.
>
Oh Papa, don't dump me now just as I was making Peter jealous:)
>
>> >The pervading atmosphere of the oasis of tranquility and harmony that is
>> >the "Hun dressing room" is more likely
>> >
>>
>> Yes, refined and ecumenical except if you are a pape who wants to make
>the Sign
>> of the Cross as you enter the pitch just as you did in Germany, Italy,
>England
>> etc. The same dressing room that has housed, in recent times, certain
>> individuals charged with anti Catholic sectarian offences.
>
>1. Aye; I'll give you that one; the requests (not instructions btw,
>requests) to the Italians not to cross themselves were unacceptable. The
>reasons given to them were that the club had strong Proddie traditions and
>crossing themselves could turn a section of the support against the players
>concerned.
>Personally, I find it wrong, but there ye are.
>2. Which individuals? which offenses? Enlighten me please.
>
Oh, come on Papa Bear. The Kebab Shop incident (Derek Ferguson and Ian
Durrant), the bar room brawl in Renfrewshire (whereLaudrup managed to make
himself scarce) Super Ally in the disco in East Kilbride, Sandy Roberston
(while still with you), Ian Ferguson and his old man mugging folk in Duke
Street while singing the Sash (according to the Glasgow Evening Times), Gimme
a couple of days and I can come up with a few more. The simple fact is that
you have players who contract into (in a big way) what your worst fans are
into.
>It is a damn sight more sharp witted than turning round and giving them the
>fingers. The Gazman
>knew exactly how to get back at them in the most effective way and he did
>so brilliantly.
>
>Now, work this one out. When he did it at Ibrox (the flute thing) I was
>much annoyed by it, becasue I think his action there legitimised the Orange
>links with RFC; however, his action at Celtic Park was
>retaliatory and designed to rile the Tims rather than show support for
>marching bands.
>
So why does this action at Ibrox legitimise the links with Orange marching
bands but become a bit of a laugh at Celtic Park? Doing it in front of people
who are unlikely to be upset by it is wrong and the same action that
undoubtedly inflames an AWAY crowd is somehow acceptable? I don't beleive
Gazza is showing support for marching bands (I bet he's never seen one), but
surely you must accept that in the present political climate (in the context of
NI) it was rather insensitive.
>
>but dddduuuuuuuullllllllllll, crass and mundane and worse than
>that...ineffective
>
And inoffensive.
>Of course not. Why WOULD you be interested in RFC actually making a public
>stand against sectarianism; it doesn't fit your (pathalogical) stereotyping
>of RFC as knuckle-scraping bigots.
>
When have I ever accused/stereotyped your gang of neanderthals being knuckle
scraping bigots? I am extremely interested in RFC making a public stand against
sectarianism, but I've stopped holding my breath for it!
>
>> He fully knew the implications of his actions, I beleive he simply
>couldn't
>> stop himself from doing it,
>
>na-ah. That's why he did it, because he knew the implications and he knew
>that he would
>get one over on you by doing it.
>
No, he's far too fucking thick for that! All he knew was that such an action
was liable to upset SOME folk and he probably still doesn't have a clue why.
>
>Oh, come on! You lot are the most pompous, humourless, anally-retentive,
>pious, hypocritical bunch of whiny bastards since the Wee Frees. No offence
Of course that's why we sang "Always look on the bright siiiiide of life" for
about 6 years while getting cuffed by everybody. For a club who has made "We
arra people" one of it's best known war cries, an accusation of pomposity
doesn't wash!
> Any humour you may have disappears under a
>> >blanket of bitterness and inferiority complex when it's Rangers that
>are
>> >in question.
>>
>> If that is the case then why has it not been such an issue amongst the
>fans or
>> indeed the fanzines?
>
>Not such an issue??? heelllooooo?????? Anybody home?
>
Yes, I'm home. Peter posted earlier about this being a non-issue in the
Bhoyzone fanzine. It has hardly been mentioned in the CV. It has hardly rated
a mention on the Sellick website. You may have noticed that we (sensible) Tims
never instigated these threads on the ng. You may also have noticed posts from
Tims saying the Bunnet should have kept his trap shut. I have noticed posts
from Huns justifying/legitimising Gazza's action. Why? As you said Papa, its
wrong at Ibrox but ok at Parkhead: why?
>
>> Winning a European award for fighting against bigotry and discrimination
>hardly
>> strikes me as being the result of posturing and bluffing.
>
>This award was what exactly?
>
I cannot exactly remeber tha title of the award but it was something like the
European Award for Social Concern. If Peter sees this he will check up and
post the right name. It was in all the papers and on the telly at the time.
>
>"The Irish National Medal for Humping Proddy Bastards at Every Opportunity"
>Award?
>
If only:):):):):):)
>
>Yeah, we don't campaign on behalf of the Asian community...we just sign
>Asian players:
>Celtic FC remain Lily White (as far as Scots are concerned) in their
>signing policy if not in their moral standards.
>
And how many Asian players have you signed? Why do you compare us to womens'
sanitary products (well we have got a tight defence)? What the fuck (sorry) do
you mean by "moral standards": am I missing something here or are you trying to
implicate us in some sort of scandal? I would be glad for some illumination
here please, Papa.
>
>THIS I cannot believe. THIS is TOO much. The only, the sole, the single
>cause of religious intolerance in Scotland is the fact that the Catholic
>church insists on seperate education for Catholic kids. In short the
>Catholic church is entirely responsible for the continued division in
>Scottish society.
>
Yes, you are absolutely right. The only reason for bigotry in Scotland is the
fact that a minority of Catholic kids go to Catholic schools. It's fucking
intolerable that bigotry solely and purely exists because of this. If Catholic
schools did not exist, bigotry in Scotland would cease to exist overnight
because it's all their fault anyway. If they would only mix and be like the
rest of us then everything would be hunky dory. In fact if Catholics did not
exist there would be no bigotry or sectarianism oh Hallelujah!!
Seriously though, Papa, I take your point. I see no rationale for seperate
schooling in Scotland(or anywhere else for that matter) but to assign the
existence of religious intolerance on seperate Catholic schools denies the
existence of inherent anti-Catholicism in our country post Reformation. Would
you argue that scrapping the segregated education system would lead to the
downfall of the Orange Order?
>I lived in Germany for a number of years, where all kids go to the local
>school. Potestant, Catholic, Muslim whatever. The result? Religious
>harmony.
>
I lived in England for a while where there were seperate Catholic schools. The
result: religious harmony and no one was a bit bothered about it! It seems to
be a Scottish problem.
>
>Celtic should try convincing the religious authorities to change their
>education policy before annoying education authorities about matters out
>with their control.
>
Bit of a non sequitur there. So Celtic should try to change the education
authority's policies (because that is what exists) before annoying the
education authorities about matters outwith their control. The Catholic Church
have an advisory role not a policy making one.
>
>This is according to the Celtic View no doubt. You have no idea how many
>people have been banned from Ibrox, do you? None at all...and yet you have
>no problem coming out with this stuff. I personally know of three cases
>where people have been banned two for sectarianism and one for racism.
>
No, it's actually according to The Times. Your security guy (
whassisname:Alistair sumfin...I'm not sure) made it quite clear: Rangers are
not in the business of banning folk, they would rather warn them, and that must
be a real fright. He felt that Celtic were far too draconian by just chucking
folk on a permanent basis. 15 guys this season alone for ALLEGEDLY smoking
cannabis, the 12 year old banned for 10 years for sauntering on to the pitch at
the Hun Dome, scores of people (this season) banned for swearing (!) , singing
"sectarian"songs, being arrested in the vicinity of the Park and away
grounds,(beleive it or not but the Polis tell Celtic who they have lifted even
before the PF decides to charge 'em).
>Anyway, those paragons of virtue in blue were singing the sanitised
>authorised version. Really. Honest. Trust me I'm a doctor. Would I lie to
>you?
>
Is there a sanitised version? Honestly now were they only singing "up to our
knees in mince and tatties,
Surindir or Rawalpindi,
for we are the Scottish curry boys"?
>
>Your sarcasm re Murray is misplaced. He has done more to advance Scottish
>football (after all, without Murray do you think Celtic would be in their
>present state? Methinks not, since everything you do is done as a reaction
>to leads taken and developments made at Ibrox) and more to combat
>sectarianism than anyone else. Which is not to say that the battle is won,
>not by a long shot..but huge steps have been taken since the Mint came to
>Ibrox.
Yes and no. Yes in the terms of our reaction (although you were blessed with a
similar board attitude until David Holmes took over). No in response to what
Murray has done to combat sectarianism. Yeah, you've taken huge steps, but
only in comparison to the tippy two steps you took prior to him taking over.
>That must have been in the Celtic View, too, then, because no one else
>heard it.
>
IIRC it was in the Record and the Herald. Stop reading the Daily Sport Papa
it's bad for your eyesight:):):)
>
>Yeah, sure, I keep a "Big Bumper Book of Misquotes and Slights Against
>Rangers", now where is it........
>
>
Ah, so you don't really know: not like you to make stuff up is it?
>
>Burns and Stark gave us the biased ref (nod-wink-hint Masons one and all)
>and McCann said and did nothing about it.
>
I take it you got this from your "Bumper Book of Quotes ...."
>
>McNee is, as they say in the Polynesian Islands, a fucking wanker. He comes
>out with anti Rangers stuff, deliberately mind you, to promote his own
>standing, week after week after week. Murray was absolutely right to make
>it clear what he thinks of the tosser.
>
>
Of course he's a fucking wanker. We know that better than anybody since he's
spent the best part of the past ten years ripping the pish out of us. Haven't
you noticed though that we now treat him like we (as in us on the ng) treat
Burns?
>
>Probably becasue he's done so much and worked so hard to change things at
>Ibrox. Wouldn't you get pissed of if all the good work you did was
>deliberately ignored just so that some tosser can try to get brownie points
>either for his own club or his newspaper or his image?
>
>
Yes, yes yes. The new Celtic board was installed for only a week before McTaig
ripped into them. I know where your coming from on this one.
>
>No, Ronnie, I'm not guessing. I have seen the reactions of Rangers fans at
>old firm games
>when the IRA songs start at the Celtic end, particularly when these songs
>followed some IRA
>atrocity. If the hatred and bitterness felt by Celtic fans towards pathetic
>wee men in bowler hats
>and beer-gutted bullies banging drums and playing flutes is a tenth as deep
>as the hatred Rangers fans feel towards the IRA and their supporters in
>Glasgow's east end then it's very deep indeed.
>
To be honest Papa, I'm sometimes sickened by the songs. Mrs the Tim frequently
went spare about them in years gone by. I'm not trying to demean the reaction
or feelings of any support to pro IRA songs but you still have no concept of
how most of us feel about the OO. Sure, there's no comparison between the two
organisations, and to you they may seem like a bunch of beer bellied clowns,
but to us they're frightening (because of their numbers), intimidating and
frequently violent. I can understand and accept anyone's hatred for the IRA
and their apologists, cannae say they're my fave raves masel, but it seems ALL
Catholics are tarred with the same brush in the eyes of the OO: we're all pro
IRA, anti Royalty (which is fine) anti British (which is fine) terrorists
(which is rather unfine). My best friend (when I was a bhoy) was a member of
the OO and he used to treat me and my family like shit round about the 12th and
when challenged came up with exactly those reasons.
>{I would hope
>that even someone dim enough to support Celtic can see that I'm not a bigot
>;) }.
No, all Tims are as clever as fuck, I have never called you, or any other
knuckle scraping neanderthal Hun bastard a bigot :):):):)
Joke, Joke.
>Celtic fans reported the gesture, Rangers FC dealt with it, Celtic FC and
>the media continued to make an issue of it long after RFC had fined Gazza
>and made him apologise ...and I still maintain they were wrong to do so.
>
Celtic wrote to the SFA immediately (well on the Wednesday) after the game.
The media picked this up subsequent to that. Celtic have not made an issue of
it other than that, if anything Murray has kept the pot boiling by saying that
Celtic are "setting a dangerous precedent" (now there's a veiled threat) by
sending the letter. I feel that Celtic are absolutely entitled to comment and
report on matters and events that occurred on their ground. Celtic have said
bugger all privately or publicly since the letter on Jan 7th , some days before
Gazza'z apology.
>
>You can wake up now, I've finished :)
>
Thank fuck, its quarter to 5 in the morning (and I'm doing this on line, what a
time to respond to a post).
I sincerely hope that there is little in my post you can agree with Papa,
purely because I'm fed up with Peter McLoughlin e-mailing me with accusations
of wanting to have your cubs:):):):):):):):):):)
Alasdair Allan
> >cause of religious intolerance in Scotland is the fact that the Catholic
> >church insists on seperate education for Catholic kids. In short the
> >Catholic church is entirely responsible for the continued division in
> >Scottish society.
> >
>
> Yes, you are absolutely right. The only reason for bigotry in Scotland
is the
> fact that a minority of Catholic kids go to Catholic schools. It's
fucking
> intolerable that bigotry solely and purely exists because of this. If
Catholic
> schools did not exist, bigotry in Scotland would cease to exist
overnight
> because it's all their fault anyway. If they would only mix and be like
the
> rest of us then everything would be hunky dory. In fact if Catholics did
not
> exist there would be no bigotry or sectarianism oh Hallelujah!!
It is not about "being like the rest of us". Tolerance comes from
knowledge, from having an understanding about people who have difference
beliefs and colours to yourself. It is well documented that the formative
years are where the majority of intolerance and bigotry are formed.
> Seriously though, Papa, I take your point. I see no rationale for
seperate
> schooling in Scotland(or anywhere else for that matter) but to assign the
> existence of religious intolerance on seperate Catholic schools denies
the
> existence of inherent anti-Catholicism in our country post Reformation.
Would
> you argue that scrapping the segregated education system would lead to
the
> downfall of the Orange Order?
By segregating children from Catholic families into their own schools (and
it is the majority), a divide continues to be created within Scottish
society. Without it, bigotry would vanish - not overnight but slowly and
once the current generation have died out.
It is about understanding not conversion.
> >I lived in Germany for a number of years, where all kids go to the local
> >school. Potestant, Catholic, Muslim whatever. The result? Religious
> >harmony.
>
> I lived in England for a while where there were seperate Catholic
schools. The
> result: religious harmony and no one was a bit bothered about it! It
seems to
> be a Scottish problem.
Because the establishment of sectarian schooling is all pervasive within
Scotland, especially the West coast and it is perpetuated by the Council in
Glasgow in their promotion of Catholic education and during the 70s the
running down of non-denominational schools.
> >Celtic should try convincing the religious authorities to change their
> >education policy before annoying education authorities about matters out
> >with their control.
>
> Bit of a non sequitur there. So Celtic should try to change the
education
> authority's policies (because that is what exists) before annoying the
> education authorities about matters outwith their control.
If Celtic are serious about combatting bigotry they should speak out
against the catholic church's influence on kids education. It is
documented sociological fact that divisive education breeds a divisive
society.
> The Catholic Church
> have an advisory role not a policy making one.
Their "advisory role" is a sham - they control they policy. For Pete's
sake they are about to have sex education removed from Catholic Schools
despite it being a statuatory requirement, and Glasgow council is helping
them do it.
The only solution for Scotland is the American model of banning religion
completely from the classroom. How anyone can believe it has a place
within a modern societies classroom is beyond me(I am not arguing against a
place for religion in society).
The Catholic church are only interested in one thing, preservation of their
business interests. That relies on getting them early and keeping them,
much like any other cult. Sectarian schooling is an easy way to do that.
Peter McLaughlin
In article <01bd27e2$f48215a0$b07a...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk>, Alasdair
Allan <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>It is not about "being like the rest of us". Tolerance comes from
>knowledge, from having an understanding about people who have difference
>beliefs and colours to yourself. It is well documented that the formative
>years are where the majority of intolerance and bigotry are formed.
>
has experienced prejudice for generations it's not likely that you would
expect any respect except that that we as a community and individuals
had to fight for.
>
>By segregating children from Catholic families into their own schools (and
>it is the majority), a divide continues to be created within Scottish
>society. Without it, bigotry would vanish - not overnight but slowly and
>once the current generation have died out.
a decent education. Non-denominational state schools fall down somewhat
in this area.
>
>It is about understanding not conversion.
>> I lived in England for a while where there were seperate Catholic
>schools. The
>> result: religious harmony and no one was a bit bothered about it! It
>seems to
>> be a Scottish problem.
>
>Because the establishment of sectarian schooling is all pervasive within
>Scotland, especially the West coast and it is perpetuated by the Council in
>Glasgow in their promotion of Catholic education and during the 70s the
>running down of non-denominational schools.
I've also lived for many years in England. One thing I do know is that
people in London are trying to get their kids into Catholic schools
because of their reputation for excellence. Why should we let our
children go to these crappy "non-denominational" schools when they won't
come out with a decent qualification between them?
>
>
>If Celtic are serious about combatting bigotry they should speak out
>against the catholic church's influence on kids education. It is
>documented sociological fact that divisive education breeds a divisive
>society.
Really? It's also a documented fact that girls do better in all-girl
schools. That must make for a divided society too(??)
>
>Their "advisory role" is a sham - they control they policy. For Pete's
>sake they are about to have sex education removed from Catholic Schools
>despite it being a statuatory requirement, and Glasgow council is helping
>them do it.
I'm getting a bit fed up with my name getting taken in vain on this
thread.
Anyway, as everybody knows "thick micks" don't need any sex education as
they seem to be getting on fine without it. After all, there's loads of
us.
>
>The Catholic church are only interested in one thing, preservation of their
>business interests. That relies on getting them early and keeping them,
>much like any other cult.
Cult? There is no country on this earth that does not have RC residents.
The Roman Catholic church is the biggest religious group in the world.
What goes on in these small islands is mickey mouse stuff. Remember who
broke away from who. There may be a majority of non-RCs in this country
but when you take a wee step across the water you'll find things are
slightly different.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Peter McLaughlin
In article <34cb9882...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Sammy Lives
<sammy...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>"Alasdair Allan" <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><snip>
>
>>> I'm still a Tim though, and at least half of the season-tickets at
>>> Paradise on a Saturday come from outside of Glasgow.
>
>>You should support your local club instead of glory hunting.
>
to do with where I live now, where I have lived in the past, nor where I
was born (St Francis Nursing Home, Copland Road, Near the Fortress of
Doom, Weedgieland)
Support your local team? OK Feyenoord, Hertha, Derry City, Bordeaux,
Napoli maybe. Crystal Palace, Arsenal, Chelsea, Hibs, York City, Leeds
United probably not. Musselburgh Athletic, on the other hand, are doing
pretty well since they got promoted last season and Morton are sure to
give a good display tomorrow (oops, today).
>Exactly. I think its the point Peter made is the reason many people
>dislike the Old Firm (team or fans). A bit like Man U in England
>really.
>
>I don't think his point is something to really be proud of.
>
This argument about "support your local team" is pretty specious. Why
should you? Especially if they're shite? It's a loser's argument.
Why should I stand in the pissing rain on a terracing built of ash and
railway sleepers to watch a crap team play dreadful football just
because they happen to play near the place where I currently abide?
Away and fuck.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Terry Heath
>
>Ever heard the phrase 2 wrongs don't make a right? Murdering someone
>because they made an, admittedly stupid and immature, gesture is just
>a tad over the top, wouldn't you say? Where do we stop? Should
>Ketsbaia be shot for kicking an advertising hoarding? Sheringham
>knifed for kissing his badge? Macateer given a leathal injection for
>that bloody shampoo advert?
>--
him.
BTW, what's the origin of Tim and Hun (or is it the ten monkeys in a cage
syndrome). I can think of more obvious names for Catholics before I'd ever
get to Tim and weren't the Huns those fellers with spiked hats ?
Sammy Lives
Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>This argument about "support your local team" is pretty specious. Why
>should you? Especially if they're shite? It's a loser's argument.
>
>Why should I stand in the pissing rain on a terracing built of ash and
>railway sleepers to watch a crap team play dreadful football just
>because they happen to play near the place where I currently abide?
>
>Away and fuck.
Ask any fan that does this and the answer is obvious:
Because you support them.
For me, these fans are more loyal than any other.
stuart graham
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:54:02 +0000, Peter McLaughlin
<ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I don't have any problem with people who watch junior teams or their
>local side. I work with one or two followers of junior football (I have
>folowed it myself) and the main thing we have in common is a love of
>fitba. But I don't see any reason why I should be obliged to follow a
>team just beacause of geographical proximity instead of the team that I
>have supported from my childhood and to whom my heart belongs.
>
>I don't care about any of the sniping from some of the contributors to
>this group, I am Celtic supporter through and through, I always have
>been and I always will be, through good times and bad. I'm happy with
>that.
But the thing is it *is* an easier option. The bad times for the OF
are never really that bad. Supporting a team for geographical reasons
is a much better reason than to follow a side just because they win or
for reasons of religion (as some do).
Peter McLaughlin
In article <34c9fb97...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Sammy Lives
<sammy...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>This argument about "support your local team" is pretty specious. Why
>>should you? Especially if they're shite? It's a loser's argument.
>>
>>Why should I stand in the pissing rain on a terracing built of ash and
>>railway sleepers to watch a crap team play dreadful football just
>>because they happen to play near the place where I currently abide?
>>
>>Away and fuck.
>
>Ask any fan that does this and the answer is obvious:
>
>Because you support them.
>
>For me, these fans are more loyal than any other.
>
look better.
I don't have any problem with people who watch junior teams or their
local side. I work with one or two followers of junior football (I have
folowed it myself) and the main thing we have in common is a love of
fitba. But I don't see any reason why I should be obliged to follow a
team just beacause of geographical proximity instead of the team that I
have supported from my childhood and to whom my heart belongs.
I don't care about any of the sniping from some of the contributors to
this group, I am Celtic supporter through and through, I always have
been and I always will be, through good times and bad. I'm happy with
that.
--
Peter McLaughlin
Sammy Lives
Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <34c9fb97...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Sammy Lives
><sammy...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>>Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>This argument about "support your local team" is pretty specious. Why
>>>should you? Especially if they're shite? It's a loser's argument.
>>>
>>>Why should I stand in the pissing rain on a terracing built of ash and
>>>railway sleepers to watch a crap team play dreadful football just
>>>because they happen to play near the place where I currently abide?
>>>
>>>Away and fuck.
>>
>>Ask any fan that does this and the answer is obvious:
>>
>>Because you support them.
>>
>>For me, these fans are more loyal than any other.
>>
>Nice one Sammy, quote the last half of my argument to make your response
>look better.
Sorry if you feel that, but it was not my intention - I actually
agreed with the topmost part of your post, hence the reason I did not
comment on it. Don't we all hate long posts littered with "I Agree",
"I Agree", "I Agree".... I did state that I had <snip>'d parts though.
>I don't have any problem with people who watch junior teams or their
>local side. I work with one or two followers of junior football (I have
>folowed it myself) and the main thing we have in common is a love of
>fitba. But I don't see any reason why I should be obliged to follow a
>team just beacause of geographical proximity instead of the team that I
>have supported from my childhood and to whom my heart belongs.
I Agree !
>I don't care about any of the sniping from some of the contributors to
>this group, I am Celtic supporter through and through, I always have
>been and I always will be, through good times and bad. I'm happy with
>that.
I Agree !
Actually, I have absolutely no problems with fans of any team who
support them because they are the local team, because it's who their
dad took them to when they were young, because its who they liked
watching when they were young etc etc. These are all perfectly
acceptable (to me) reasons to support a team.
What I do object to is those that jump teams or those that didn't
really support any one team but started to when said team became more
successful. I personally know Old Firm fans just now who supported
Aberdeen in the eighties. If you compare the crowds the Old Firm teams
got in the 70's/80's, its obvious that a *lot* of people have jumped
on the bandwagon because of their recent success - and by success, I
don't just mean winning trophies, but by becoming what people/the
media regard as "a team to watch".
I think a lot of people treat their football team like a fashion
accessory - like a Rolex Watch - or a Swatch, in Celtics case :)
Alasdair Allan
> >knowledge, from having an understanding about people who have difference
> >beliefs and colours to yourself. It is well documented that the
formative
> >years are where the majority of intolerance and bigotry are formed.
> >
> Tolerance comes from mutual respect. When you come from a community that
> has experienced prejudice for generations it's not likely that you would
> expect any respect except that that we as a community and individuals
> had to fight for.
Respect comes from knowledge. You can neither have knowledge or respect of
a section of the population you are segregated from.
> >By segregating children from Catholic families into their own schools
(and
> >it is the majority), a divide continues to be created within Scottish
> >society. Without it, bigotry would vanish - not overnight but slowly
and
> >once the current generation have died out.
> RC children go to their own schools because there they can be guaranteed
> a decent education. Non-denominational state schools fall down somewhat
> in this area.
The fact that RC schools receive higher per capita funding is not an
argument that such disparity should be maintained. You are arguing that
Catholic children deserve more than children of other religions. That's a
pretty shitey argument.
> >Because the establishment of sectarian schooling is all pervasive within
> >Scotland, especially the West coast and it is perpetuated by the Council
in
> >Glasgow in their promotion of Catholic education and during the 70s the
> >running down of non-denominational schools.
> I've also lived for many years in England. One thing I do know is that
> people in London are trying to get their kids into Catholic schools
> because of their reputation for excellence. Why should we let our
> children go to these crappy "non-denominational" schools when they won't
> come out with a decent qualification between them?
I have stated that religion should not be taught in any schools, such
brainwashing has no place in society. If you want to fund your childrens
education seperately then you should pay for it, not have the state create
a divisive situation with Catholic children receiving more resources than
others.
> >If Celtic are serious about combatting bigotry they should speak out
> >against the catholic church's influence on kids education. It is
> >documented sociological fact that divisive education breeds a divisive
> >society.
> Really? It's also a documented fact that girls do better in all-girl
> schools. That must make for a divided society too(??)
Your analogy is unworthy of comment.
> >Their "advisory role" is a sham - they control they policy. For Pete's
> >sake they are about to have sex education removed from Catholic Schools
> >despite it being a statuatory requirement, and Glasgow council is
helping
> >them do it.
> >The Catholic church are only interested in one thing, preservation of
their
> >business interests. That relies on getting them early and keeping them,
> >much like any other cult.
>
> Cult? There is no country on this earth that does not have RC residents.
> The Roman Catholic church is the biggest religious group in the world.
> What goes on in these small islands is mickey mouse stuff. Remember who
> broke away from who. There may be a majority of non-RCs in this country
> but when you take a wee step across the water you'll find things are
> slightly different.
All religions, whether "establishment" or "modern cult" are cults by the
dictionary definition. They extract monies from those who cannot afford it
and use the revenue to further their business interest - recruiting more
gullible bastards.
The position of the Catholic church as the most successful exploiter of the
cult methodology is not something you should hold with such reverence.
Its well over 100 years since Kirkengaard noted the personal nature of
religion yet still today apologists for these cults want our children
brainwashed. Tis time, methinks, to draw a line under this sorry chapter
of human history and let them decide for themselves.
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Re: Gazza wanted by the IRA?
>Date: 24/01/98 23:19 GMT
>Message-id: <34ca53e2...@news.clara.net>
>>local side. I work with one or two followers of junior football (I have
>>folowed it myself) and the main thing we have in common is a love of
>>fitba. But I don't see any reason why I should be obliged to follow a
>>team just beacause of geographical proximity instead of the team that I
>>have supported from my childhood and to whom my heart belongs.
>>
>>this group, I am Celtic supporter through and through, I always have
>>been and I always will be, through good times and bad. I'm happy with
>>that.
>
>are never really that bad. Supporting a team for geographical reasons
>is a much better reason than to follow a side just because they win or
>for reasons of religion (as some do).
You can't really describe the past 10 years as being successful for Celtic.
The remarkable thing is how Celtic fans have rallied round and stayed with the
club during this spell (particularly from the period of boycotting the old
board regime) both in attending games and buying shares.
BTW I couldn't find anyone on my supporters' bus who follows the 'Tic for
religious reasons.
Rwvsmith
>Subject: Re: Gazza wanted by the IRA?
>Date: 25/01/98 00:33 GMT
>Message-id: <34cd84ab....@news.dial.pipex.com>
>
>Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <34c9fb97...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Sammy Lives
>><sammy...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>>>Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
<snip>
>
>What I do object to is those that jump teams or those that didn't
>really support any one team but started to when said team became more
>successful. I personally know Old Firm fans just now who supported
>Aberdeen in the eighties. If you compare the crowds the Old Firm teams
>got in the 70's/80's, its obvious that a *lot* of people have jumped
>on the bandwagon because of their recent success - and by success, I
>don't just mean winning trophies, but by becoming what people/the
>media regard as "a team to watch".
>
>I think a lot of people treat their football team like a fashion
>accessory - like a Rolex Watch - or a Swatch, in Celtics case :)
>
>Sammy Lives ~ Dunfermline Athletic Fanzine
It may also have to do with the fact that,in general, attendances are up as
fitba' has become increasingly trendy. There is also the fact that women and
children are in much greater evidence at games currently (and a good thing
too).
I have also noticed the phenomenon of returners. My old man and a few uncles
being amongst them who previously hadn't been to a game since the late
70'/early 80's getting fed up (and too old for) with the bottle fights and then
the casuals.
Most of the folk who sit next to me and Mrs the Tim have been watching the Tic
regularly for donkey's years, so I've yet to meet the Arsenal "fan" from the
Fast Show type.
The only Celtic fans I know who watched Aberdeen/D.Utd in the 80's were folk
who moved up that way for work. (BTW, it's a total of 3 folk; one of whom
still watches Aberdeen when they are at home but has been a Celtic season
ticket holder for 6 years).
Have you seen the price of they Swatches?... bloody extortionate.
Martin McGranaghan
Peter McLaughlin wrote in message ...
>We can't seem to reach a consensus on Tim, although there's an old music
>hall song "If you're Irish come into the parlour" which contains the
>lines "If your name is Timothy or Pat, as long as you come from Ireland
>there's a welcome on the mat" which tends to suggest that it used to be
>a fairly common name. Paddy & Mick have been used as being synonymous
>with Irish or with RC, so it's possible Tim was too.
>
>The hun bit is probably the usual one about demonising your "enemy".
>
>--
>Peter McLaughlin
I think you're right about Tim. I don't know where hun came from but I
always assumed it was something to do with the huns bringing about the
downfall of Rome.
Martin McGranaghan
nen...@globalnet.co.uk
Sammy Lives
Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>We can't seem to reach a consensus on Tim, although there's an old music
>hall song "If you're Irish come into the parlour" which contains the
>lines "If your name is Timothy or Pat, as long as you come from Ireland
>there's a welcome on the mat" which tends to suggest that it used to be
>a fairly common name.
Hehe, there's two Irishmen at my work - one's called Tim and the
other's called Pat. And they both love Guiness too - though I'm often
reminded that its just not the same as they get back home. (Well,
actually, their is a third called Aidan, but that kind of spoils it)
Oh, and a tip for tourists if you're going to Ireland. Don't kiss the
Blarney (sp?) Stone....
Sammy Lives ~ Dunfermline Athletic Fanzine
sammy...@dial.pipex.com
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/sammy.lives
Sammy Lives
rwvs...@aol.com (Rwvsmith) wrote:
<snip>
>>But the thing is it *is* an easier option. The bad times for the OF
>>are never really that bad. Supporting a team for geographical reasons
>>is a much better reason than to follow a side just because they win or
>>for reasons of religion (as some do).
>You can't really describe the past 10 years as being successful for Celtic.
>The remarkable thing is how Celtic fans have rallied round and stayed with the
>club during this spell (particularly from the period of boycotting the old
>board regime) both in attending games and buying shares.
I wouldn't say its success in Celtic's case, but saftey in numbers;
its a lot easier to support a team a lot of other people support and
one the media are obsessed with. Also, one which has the undoubted
potential to be successful.
>BTW I couldn't find anyone on my supporters' bus who follows the 'Tic for
>religious reasons.
But does that stop them singing those "songs" ?
Camel J.
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 05:36:38 -0000, "Terry Heath" <te...@opus400.com>
bellowed forth:
>BTW, what's the origin of Tim and Hun (or is it the ten monkeys in a cage
>syndrome). I can think of more obvious names for Catholics before I'd ever
>get to Tim and weren't the Huns those fellers with spiked hats ?
Do the monkeys have typewriters?
--
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Terry Heath
>
> >BTW, what's the origin of Tim and Hun (or is it the ten monkeys in a
cage
> >syndrome). I can think of more obvious names for Catholics before I'd
ever
> >get to Tim and weren't the Huns those fellers with spiked hats ?
>
> Do the monkeys have typewriters?
>
famous and has bugger all to do with footie.
ie.
Ten monkeys were put in a cage. There was some food hanging from the roof,
that they could only reach by dragging a box from the corner of the cage
and standing on it. When the food was pulled at, a large amount of water
doused all the occupants in the cage.
After the monkeys stopped doing this, one of them was substituted by a
fresh monkey who figured out a way to get at this food, but every time he
went to the box all the other monkeys attacked him.
They replaced each monkey, one by one until it had ten monkeys that had
never been drenched and then one of them was substituted by a new monkey.
This new monkey went for the box and all the other monkeys attacked him.
They all knew the box was bad news, but none of them knew why.
The whole thing is meant to explain how some of our own taboos grew up and
why we do things, but don't know why we're doing them eg. touching wood
when tempting providence, calling Catholics Tims, or protestants Huns.
There's probably a good reason, but no one knows why anymore.
Iain Thomas Struthers
Alasdair Allan <alasdai...@ics-uk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: Peter McLaughlin <ara...@arapaho.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
: > I've also lived for many years in England. One thing I do know is that
: > people in London are trying to get their kids into Catholic schools
: > because of their reputation for excellence. Why should we let our
: > children go to these crappy "non-denominational" schools when they won't
: > come out with a decent qualification between them?
: I have stated that religion should not be taught in any schools, such
: brainwashing has no place in society. If you want to fund your childrens
: education seperately then you should pay for it, not have the state create
: a divisive situation with Catholic children receiving more resources than
: others.
Although I'm a Scottish-born Protestant, I completed all my schooling in
Australia, with my secondary education being completed at a Catholic
college. Although religion was taught as a subject, it was mostly of a
non-denominational nature (it even included basic studies of Islam,
Hinduism and other religions). Religious services were Catholic,
but participation was voluntary in this aspect for non-catholic students.
On the whole, most of the religious education classes were more involved
learning spirituality, morals and other "human development"-type issues
than about bible-bashing.
Although I don't think this is the norm for private schools in Australia
(let alone in Britain), it does show that a school can maintain a
religious background and tradition without promoting bigotry.
: > The Roman Catholic church is the biggest religious group in the world.
I may be wrong, but I believe that Roman Catholicism is a denomination,
not a religion. I thought that - as with Protestants - Roman Catholics
followed the Christian religion.
The most unbelievable thing about sectarianism in Britain is that both
'sides' purport to worship the same God, yet are willing to hate, injure,
and even kill, a fellow worshipper because they happen to support a
different view about how their God should be worshipped. The hatred and
violence itself is against the scripture of the religion they claim to be
defending.
When it comes down to it, sectarianism has very little to do with
religion. Violence and taunting from either faction is claimed to be in
retaliation for violence/taunting directed at them. It has the same child
mentality of "He hit me first!", "No, mummy, he did!".
I think it's time the people (especially the churches) grew up.
Iain
Villan
I didn't know the IRA had a football team