More Maguire fodder for the masses
Ken
That's a link to TGOR, a morning show here in Ottawa. Maguire is on every
morning at 8:07AM. You can download the podcast and listen. The show starts
at 5:30AM, so FF 2:37 of it to get to 8:07.
This morning on Latendresse... He explained the goal scoring touch
Latendresse has had lately as "He is a streak guy". The guy simply will not
give an ounce of respect to a player he's been hard on. No kudos for hard
work whatsoever. I wonder if that's part of the reason he was run out of
Hartford, while Pat Verbeek described his tenure as coach by referring to
players on other teams "Laughing at him" on the bench.
Simply amazes me.
Kyle Roussel
somehow reads this, because I'm not writing this because I don't like
the guy. I'm a big big Maguire fan and have defended his stances on
many occasions. I agree(d) with him about his assessment of Huet, and
of Latendresse needing more seasoning in junior.
That being said, Pierre can only wait so long before he has to admit
that he was wrong. Huet, going back to last year has been one of the
top 5 goalies in the league, if not even higher than that. This "book"
that Maguire spoke about, which has been blown to huge proportions by
us fans, is either slow to come to the market, or is in very limited
print. No one has been able to expose these flaws that Maguire spoke
about yet. Is that because they don't exist, or is Carbo doing a good
job of keeping Huet within his limits?
As for Latendresse - I don't think there's any argument that another
year in junior would have helped him. We can't flip flop our opinions
just because he's got 5 points in 4 games. HOWEVER, that does NOT
excuse Pierre for his boorish opinions of him. He's contributing, and
you can make the case that he's been one of Montreal's 2 best skaters
over the past 5 games. He's really been a significant factor for the
Habs in the past week. Who was screening Denis last night on Souray's
first goal (or was it second?) What is this 'he's a streaky player' bit
Pierre is spouting off about now? How many players in the league are
streaky? Dozens, if not hundreds. Hell, Latendresse has more goals than
guys like Thornton, Henrik Sedin, Kariya, Tanguay(WTF??) Nagy, Ribs,
Morrison, Wellwood, Satan, and many other pretty big names. I'm not at
all suggesting that Gui is better at this point than any of those guys,
not at all, but it's high time that Maguire gives the kid credit for
what he's been able to do in the past week. No buts, ifs ands or any
other disclaimer.
But I know Pierre enough that he will just revert to his 'just wait,
just wait' line. And he may be right. But you know what? If I say 'just
wait, just wait', I'm *pretty* sure that I'll be correct in saying that
Christmas will come once a year.
Lauri Tarkkonen
You, know. Even a broken watch shows exactly the correct time twice a
day. I think we have on this list posters, that keep posting how bad the
player x is, even after they play several good games, when the player
then as a poor game, they come out and tell us: I told you so, I knew it
for the whole time, when you were giving him a slack and pricing him, I
knew, if I wait long enough, he is going to fail(injyre himself)....
Perhaps we should ignoner experts like Maquire, like we ignore our own
trolls.
- Lauri Tarkkonen
Mike
The book on Maguire is, he's sooooooo full of shit. Lets face it, if he
was any good at coaching and picking out flaws in teams, he'd still be
coaching not telling us what is ailing a team while at the same time
plopping that hand up there with that nice shiny Stanley Cup ring for
everyone to see. Its true what they say I guess, I'd rather be lucky
than good.
Before he started screaming his head off every couple of minutes, I
actually kind of liked the guy. But I can't stand all that yelling for
no apparent reason. Jesus Pierre, we know you're on TV you don't have to
scream loud to make sure. "OH LOOK THE USHER JUST DELIVERD THE POPCORN
TO ROW 10, *LOOK AT THE FOLLOW THROUGH" .
I think the thing that baffles this guy more than anything is the
apparent ease with which Huet does his job. Not spectacular, not in your
face just an "aw shucks I got lucky" attitude. He has a ton of shooters
fooled and old skin head Maguire too.
Latendresse may be a streak guy but I'm not sure how you could draw any
conclusions like that after 16 or 17 career games. Sure, I could
understand after an unproductive October questioning what he was doing
with the big club (I did) but you have to tip your hat when he makes a
nice play (I did).
Ken
"Lauri Tarkkonen" <tark...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:eji0c7$mk9$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
His latest rant is that Ottawa is the "most overrated speed team" in the
league... a fact that he kept hammering last night every time Buffalo
touched a puck. It doesn't matter if there's some truth to it. Foot speed
is NOT why the Senators are struggling right now. Puck speed, maybe. Their
passing game sucks. To the folks that have watched the Sens for years now,
this is the part of the game that's most lacking from team's past. The Sens
used to pass with authority making the team look much faster than it was.
Now they're still passing, just to the opposition. But Maguire keeps going
on... NO SPEED! LOOK AT BUFFALO'S SPEED! SPEED! RAHHHH! What a crock. And
it'll be repeated ad nauseum until Ottawa either misses the playoffs or gets
eliminated, then it'll be "Ottawa is the most overrated speed team in the
league! See? I told you!" Meanwhile, the GAA will be 4.58, SP% will be
.859, they'll be without their #1 D man (Chara), and the coaching staff
still wont figure out that their crap D is better on the PP than their
crap-in-a-clutch-situation captain...
Lauri Tarkkonen
So the slowfooted Senators beat the swift skating Sabres, how was that
possible? Anyway, it is good to see, that the poor ones can beat the
good ones. The matginals are very small in the NHL today, the worst team
of the fall, Philadephia beat the top team Anaheim with convincing
numbers in Anaheim.
This is an interesting season and the Canadiens have all the chanches to
do anything. :-).
- Lauri Tarkkonen
J.T.
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
> So the slowfooted Senators beat the swift skating Sabres, how was that
> possible? Anyway, it is good to see, that the poor ones can beat the
> good ones. The matginals are very small in the NHL today, the worst team
> of the fall, Philadephia beat the top team Anaheim with convincing
> numbers in Anaheim.
>
> This is an interesting season and the Canadiens have all the chanches to
> do anything. :-).
>
> - Lauri Tarkkonen
Which is why the playoffs are a whole new season. The team that sucks
in the regular season can be the champion in the postseason, and vice
versa. Carbonneau will really show what he can do with these guys in
the playoffs. It's up to him to take his knowledge of how to win (and
of course, guys like Dandenault, who've been there too) and transfer it
to the team. I'm not too concerned with regular season numbers, as
long as they add up to a decent playoff spot. After that, anything can
happen...especially with a team that's proving it can match up to
pretty much anyone on any given night.
J.T.
Kyle Roussel
> was any good at coaching and picking out flaws in teams, he'd still be
> coaching not telling us what is ailing a team while at the same time
> plopping that hand up there with that nice shiny Stanley Cup ring for
> everyone to see. Its true what they say I guess, I'd rather be lucky
> than good.
>
doesn't mean that he hasn't forgotten more about playing the game, and
being a part of a great organization than any of us will ever know.
Some guys just aren't made to be coaches. He was a good assistant by
all indications, and took his shot as a head coach. It didn't work out
for him in the long run, but I do still think he is the best analyst
out there, despite his screaming, yelling and flailing his cup ring all
over the place for everyone to see. Let's not take that away from him.
He's polarizing in that some people can't take his
enthusiasm/noisiness, but don't try to knock him for his analytical
skills. He's amazing at that, but even the best can and will be wrong,
as it appears so far with Huet, and as it appears now with Gui.
zip by
"Kyle Roussel" <kyler...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> As for Latendresse - I don't think there's any argument that another
> year in junior would have helped him.
I am one of those who was not sure if he was ready for the NHL - but one
thing I think everyone could agree on was that he would not really have
developed much more at the junior level. He strikes me as a person who
needs challenges.
Because of his junior status - he was not eligible to play for the Dogs
in the AHL - ergo it was a bet that he would develop most in a pro
environment, but the question was, would he help or hinder the team?
I have to admit that despite my misgivings the answer is that whatever
development he must do, he is, in the meantime, not a liability to the
big club. Quite the contrary.
On the basis of the games so far - I think BG and staff made the right
decision for the team and for the player.
Marty
news:BM%6h.19930$cz.3...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:
>
> Latendresse may be a streak guy but I'm not sure how you could draw
> any conclusions like that after 16 or 17 career games. Sure, I could
> understand after an unproductive October questioning what he was doing
> with the big club (I did) but you have to tip your hat when he makes a
> nice play (I did).
>
Lats didn't score in, what, 14 games. 12 of which were of the 4th line.
He get moves to the first, and he scores 5 points in 4.
There obviously is a bit of fluke involved, but what seems more apparent
is that Lats needs to play with good players to be good. He doesn't have
the speed or the smarts yet to create everything himself and carry other
guys on his shoulders. But tell him to go to the net and other people
will get the puck there for you to slam in, or even make a quick nifty
move or short pass, and he seems up to it.
Thus, I'm not as sure that the thing is Lats has found out how to play in
the NHL, as the Habs found out how to use Lats in the NHL.
I don't expect 5 point in 4 games to continue, but I'm beginning to think
he might be playing well enough to consider using Higgins, or best
player, to fix the 2nd line situation. Luckily (or unluckily, depending
on persepective), we still have lots of time to determine if Lats is the
real deal "garbage man" scorer that this team needs.
Marty
Chuck
zip by wrote:
> In article <1163690343.8...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Kyle Roussel" <kyler...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As for Latendresse - I don't think there's any argument that another
> > year in junior would have helped him.
>
> I am one of those who was not sure if he was ready for the NHL - but one
> thing I think everyone could agree on was that he would not really have
> developed much more at the junior level. He strikes me as a person who
> needs challenges.
>
Even if he spends another year in Junior, I doubt he would start next
season as a member of one of the top two lines. People sem to be
forgiving of offensively challenged veterans who at most might score 10
or 15 goals in a season, yet were willing to jump on the fact he was
unable to produce on a line, where each member playing on it has not
produced a point yet. Begin has points, but I believe they came when he
was penalty killing, or during a line change.
Marty
news:1163694764.9...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
He grates the nerves with the screaming, he overstates the importance of
tiny things to make it seem like he sees aspects of the game we don't,
but worst, he decides before games what his main point will be then
hammers at it. Carolina good on face-offs? That's all he talks about all
night. Ottawa can't keep up with Buffalo's speed? Don't expect to hear
any different no matter what happens. Huet beat with a high shot?
"Everyone around the league has this guy figured out." Thing is, at the
end of many of those games, Carolina only won 50% of the face-offs,
Ottawa beat Buffalo, and Huet was only beat once in a 4-1 victory.
He should stop trying to make the game fit his pre-analysis, and focus
more on what actually happens.
Marty
Kyle Roussel
> tiny things to make it seem like he sees aspects of the game we don't,
> but worst, he decides before games what his main point will be then
> hammers at it. Carolina good on face-offs? That's all he talks about all
> night. Ottawa can't keep up with Buffalo's speed? Don't expect to hear
> any different no matter what happens. Huet beat with a high shot?
> "Everyone around the league has this guy figured out." Thing is, at the
> end of many of those games, Carolina only won 50% of the face-offs,
> Ottawa beat Buffalo, and Huet was only beat once in a 4-1 victory.
>
> He should stop trying to make the game fit his pre-analysis, and focus
> more on what actually happens.
>
> Marty
Those are very fair points Marty. Once he does make an issue of
something, he really does hammer at it until everyone watching believes
him.
Gerry
> He should stop trying to make the game fit his pre-analysis, and focus
> more on what actually happens.
That's the best summary I've seen on Maguire. He knows his stuff just
fine, but when the staging of his theatrics goes beyond just his normal
schtick things and starts to encompass his actually analyses, then he
loses. And it's not like he couldn't do a bang-up job on the analyses
without the staging... he's a really smart guy and he could pull it off
au naturel with no problem if he tried.
l8r,
Gerry
George
Tell me more about this Verbeek/Maguire story...inquiring minds want to
know.
"Ken" <you...@spamming.com> wrote in message
news:ejhs7e$koe$1...@news.datemas.de...
Ken
"George" <geo...@cae.com> wrote in message news:ejie7e$slh$1...@dns3.cae.ca...
> Ken,
>
> Tell me more about this Verbeek/Maguire story...inquiring minds want to
> know.
Here's a reprint of an article I saved from "Back in the Day":
_______________________________________
Mutiny on the Bounty: Whalers Overthrow McGuire
The inmates took over the asylum. The palace guards revolted. And Pierre
McGuire fell into the credibility chasm.
Citing an almost universal dislike, distaste, and disrespect bordering
upon scorn harbored by Whalers' players and staff, General Manager in situ
Paul
Holmgren fired McGuire on Thursday, just 67 games after promoting him to his
first ever head coaching position.
The Whalers have established no firm timetable for replacing McGuire,
although Director of Player Personnel Kevin Maxwell stated that he would
like
to, but not need to, have a coach in place by the NHL Entry Draft, to be
held
on the 28th and 29th of June in Hartford. Leading candidates at this point
are believed to include New Jersey assistant Larry Robinson, former San Jose
head coach George Kingston, Springfield Indians' head coach Joel
Quenneville,
and St. John's head coach Marc Crawford, a member of the Maple Leafs
organization.
Whalers' captain Pat Verbeek was probably McGuire's most outspoken
critic. "I think we can be a great team," Verbeek said, "but not if Pierre
was here.
"It's unfortunate for Pierre, but as far as our team is concerned, this
is
the best thing that could have happened," Verbeek continued. "There are
times
when you can hate a coach, but you always have to respect him. That wasn't
the
case with practically our whole team."
The firing also marks the consummation of a remarkable turnaround in the
fortunes of McGuire and Holmgren. Several weeks ago, Holmgren appeared to
be on his way out of the organization following a drunken driving arrest and
his admission to the Betty Ford Clinic for alcohol rehabilitation; McGuire,
a close friend of owner Richard Gordon, appeared solidly entrenched.
But events of the past month changed that picture dramatically. Holmgren
received plaudits for his handling of his disease, while McGuire came
increasingly under fire from all directions. Gordon appears more and more
weary of the Whalers' situation and, poised to trigger a buyout option with
the state next month, chose to pose no interference for his General Manager,
and so left McGuire's status up to Holmgren, and Holmgren's up to the next
owner of the Whalers.
Holmgren met with McGuire earlier this month to discuss the growing
problems within the organization. Maxwell said that McGuire had been given
the chance to "mend some fences" with players on the team, but that in the
past month, McGuire had not done so to their satisfaction. In fact, McGuire
met only with Sean Burke, and had not spoken to either Verbeek or Geoff
Sanderson, also highly critical of McGuire, even while each were in
attendance
at the World Championships last month in Italy.
"Since our last meeting [May 3], I had met and talked to a lot of people
within our organization," Holmgren said. "I had gathered a lot of
information
first hand. With Pierre as coach, I didn't see the unity for us to be
successful as a team.
"Number one is the record. I think we can play better with the players
we have gathered. And the communication with the players has to be better."
Countering the perception that the Whalers' players had driven out their
coach, Verbeek said "[The players] shouldn't be running the show. But when
everybody on the other team is laughing at your coach, and there's no
respect
for the coach on your own team, you've got a big problem. It was a joke. If
Pierre had stayed, a lot of players wouldn't have wanted to be here next
season."
McGuire endured a stormy tenure as head coach, including some of the
darkest moments in team history, since being asked by Holmgren to take
over for him as coach 17 games into this season. A 13-7-2 stretch after
taking over led the Whalers to within five points of a playoff position
at mid-season, and led McGuire to boldly guarantee a playoff berth this
season. Even then, there were some rumblings of problems. McGuire left
Sanderson and center Michael Nylander home for a road game against
Philadelphia in just his second game as coach. Jaromir Jagr, formerly
coached by McGuire in Pittsburgh, was very outspoken in his and his
teammates'
dislike for Pierre after a controversial game against the Penguins.
But that all gave way to a dismal second half which saw the Whalers
win only ten of their final 42 games, and spending more time in jail
cells than in the scoring ledgers.
On 23rd March, six players, including Sanderson and Verbeek, and two
assistant coaches, were involved in a bar room altercation at a nightclub
in Buffalo. It appeared to many of the players that McGuire was far more
interested in saving face for himself after the incident, rather than
sticking up for his players. McGuire claimed that he had done all that he
could by enacting a curfew, and that the players were at fault for breaking
the curfew. However, most involved, including captain Verbeek, very strongly
implied that there was no curfew, and that McGuire was only trying to keep
himself above the controversy. Although Holmgrem was cautious in assessing
that altercation, McGuire quickly sided with Gordon in meting out suspension
and fines for the players.
"Let's just say Buffalo capped the whole thing. Pierre probably lost
everybody after that due to the fact that he showed how much he would stick
up for the players. It wasn't one ounce. He was more concerned about himself
than anything," Verbeek said.
But McGuire remained optimistic about his future with the team. While
downplaying the repeated reports of communications problems, McGuire, a
32 year old rookie head coach with no previous head coaching experience,
boasted that "no one is going to outwit me as far as strategy goes during
the game on the bench."
Verbeek chose to differ in his assessment. "He was so wrapped up in
himself
behind the bench, it was unbelievable."
Asked if McGuire was in over his head and should never have been offered
the job in the first place, Maxwell simply said "I think that's a question
that deserves to be asked."
zip by
Marty <martyt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> There obviously is a bit of fluke involved, but what seems more apparent
> is that Lats needs to play with good players to be good.
Either its a fluke or its the players....
I am evolving a theory that its the players. Specifically Saku.
The theory goes like this: Saku makes Higgins look good. Then Saku makes
Latendresse look good.
The test of this theory will be when Higgins returns and we compare the
subsequent performance they player who is then playing with Saku vs the
one who is not.
Part of me thinks that Carboneau will scuttle this experiment by making
a new line of Higgs - Saku - Latendresse :-)
earl
Marty wrote:
>
> There obviously is a bit of fluke involved, but what seems more apparent
> is that Lats needs to play with good players to be good.
Depends on whether you call having Saku Koivu on your line a fluke.
1st NHL goal - Saku shoots , it gets through a lays on the line. GL
pushes it the 2 inches needed to finish the play.
2nd NHL goal - Saku has the puck in a good scoring position, fakes the
defenseman, dishes off to GL who is all alone.
3rd NHL goal - Saku wins the draw cleanly back to the point, a pass, a
shot, GL deflects it.
Only his fourth goal was not manufactured by Saku's playmaking. As
Lauri says Saku builds the play and others finish. GL has been the
latest beneficiary.
It's as simple as that. The most successful players on the team are
those that Koivu are getting the puck to. And when Koivu is not around
the team simply cannot replace that playmaking.
Marty
news:1163731327.1...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Koivu is the only playmaking center on the team, of that there is no
doubt. In fact, the only playmaker among the forwards, period.
But the "fluke" was 4 goals in 4 games since moving up. Koivu and/or PP
time isn't going to turn Lats into a goal-a-game player.
Marty
j.b...@comcast.net
Marty wrote:
> But the "fluke" was 4 goals in 4 games since moving up. Koivu and/or PP
> time isn't going to turn Lats into a goal-a-game player.
So, you're on record as saying Lats won't be an 82-goal man? Really
going out on a limb, aren't you?