Messier- Don't be Afraid
sele...@generation.net
To Flames fans worrying about the Messier signing, don't be. Well, I
suppose it improves the Canucks, and might make it a little harder for us
to make the playoffs. But are the Canucks contenders? No way.
1)The Canucks think they need "leadership". This is the same impulse
that caused Risebrough to sign the decomposed corpses of Kelly Kisio and
Carey Wilson and Jim Peplinski. The Canucks need defencemen. You think
you're going to win anything with guys like Babych and Murzyn getting
serious ice time? The Canucks have *not* underachieved the past 3 years-
they've been consistent as cement. When you look at their whole roster
instead of being bowled over by the 3 famous people, you see good but
thin forwards. dencent but inconsistent goaltending, and an atrocious
defence corps. Sounds like a .500 team to me. Their fluke Stanley Cup
run makes them think they're a great team, but they're not, not even on
paper. This signing does nothing to rectify their most glaring
weaknesses.
2)Messier was a great player, and he's still awfully good, but he's
ancient and extremely banged up. By the end of this contract, he might
not play 50 games. He might not this year.
3)He's not immortal. The media talks as if he can win games by himself,
but they forget that the Rangers missed the playoffs the second year
after they signed him.
The Cancuks could benefit from this if they follow up by moving Linden
for a defenceman, but I trust that Pat Quinn will be too dumb to figure
this out...
-Scott Lemieux sele...@generation.net
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Gordon Fountain
On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:38:21 -0600, sele...@generation.net wrote:
>To Flames fans worrying about the Messier signing, don't be. Well, I
>suppose it improves the Canucks, and might make it a little harder for us
>to make the playoffs. But are the Canucks contenders? No way.
I think Vancouver is going to make it a hell of a lot farther than the
flames. That'll be the day when Zarley Zalapski and Theoren Fleury are
regarded as the best 2 players in hockey. Besides if Calgary does get
any really good players they won't be able to afford them anyways.
Calgary will always be at the bottom of the conference.
>1)The Canucks think they need "leadership". This is the same impulse
>that caused Risebrough to sign the decomposed corpses of Kelly Kisio and
>Carey Wilson and Jim Peplinski. The Canucks need defencemen. You think
>you're going to win anything with guys like Babych and Murzyn getting
>serious ice time? The Canucks have *not* underachieved the past 3 years-
>they've been consistent as cement. When you look at their whole roster
>instead of being bowled over by the 3 famous people, you see good but
>thin forwards. dencent but inconsistent goaltending, and an atrocious
>defence corps. Sounds like a .500 team to me. Their fluke Stanley Cup
>run makes them think they're a great team, but they're not, not even on
>paper. This signing does nothing to rectify their most glaring
>weaknesses.
Granted, the defense is the obvious flaw. Yeah, fluke stanley cup run.
Your only mad because dear old Gary Roberts and Joe Nieuwendyk
couldn't handle the pressure. And don't give me that crap about you
guys winning the cup 6 or 7 years ago. And is the Flames defense any
better? Step back and look at your team. Besides Fleury and Iginla
what is there? Mclean and been plagued with injuries, he may still be
the great goalie that he had shown to be in the playooffs.
>2)Messier was a great player, and he's still awfully good, but he's
>ancient and extremely banged up. By the end of this contract, he might
>not play 50 games. He might not this year.
Messier brings more than his skill. Look at it from a Vancouver stand
point. The reason the Canucks did so bad last year is because of
players whining and nagging. Messeir doesn't put up with that. Also,
Messier coming here takes the pressure of Bure so the defense doesn't
concentrate on him so much, and gives Mogilny the center he said he
wanted. We could be talking 2 100 pt scorers. Granted this is very
unlikely but it could happen.
>The Cancuks could benefit from this if they follow up by moving Linden
>for a defenceman, but I trust that Pat Quinn will be too dumb to figure
>this out...
Yeah, Canucks management is just so stupid. Face it your just bitter
because the Canucks have so much more talent then the Flames. And as
for the smarter GM, look at the players the Flames have traded away.
They had a great team a few years ago, and what do they have to show
for it, Jocelyn Lemieux? oh wait you couldn't afford him either. Look
at the possible top 2 lines for the Canucks now:
Mogilny-Messier-Bure
Gelinas-Linden-Noonan/Naslund
You wish you had one line of that calibre. We have 2. The Canucks and
the Flames are 2 teams heading in different directions. It is very
obvious the flames will never be able to compete because they just
can't afford it, plain and simple. If you get any players that are
very talented, come contract negotiations they will be gone to New
York or Vancouver. Vancouver now has the highest payroll in the
league. We can afford it, you can't. It's the simple ligistics of the
league. I wish small market Canadian teams could compete but they
can't. The only reason the Canucks can afford is because they have an
American owner, I acknowledge that.
Yes, it's pretty obvious to trade a forward for a defenesmen. First
off Ohlund will be coming to the organization basically for sure, so
there is a D-man right there. Ledyard won't hurt. i'm not sure if
you've heard the rumor: Bure to LA for Blake. Well there you go,
Vancouver has a hell of a lot better defenseman than Calgary would
ever get and still has about twice the offense of the Flames.
See, you can't win. Have fun in the western conference basement.
Alan Caldwell
Gordon Fountain wrote:
(Much crap deleted)
> See, you can't win. Have fun in the western conference basement.
Gordon, you're so full of shit. Up until now I thought you actually had
a brain, unlike so many of your fellow Canucks NG inhabitants, but this
post has caused me to change my mind.
I'm not even going to waste my valuable time responding to your drivel.
I'll just save it and then feed it back to you in midseason in the
Canucks NG, in front of all your 5-year old friends.
Oh by the way, the score is Calgary 1 Cup, Vancouver none. 'Nuf said.
Alan
Don in Burnaby BC
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_01BC9BDD.5EC55680
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Alan, don't bother with trolls like this this.
Don
GO FLAMES
--
As Einstein wrote,
"Science without religion is lame,
religion without science is blind."
Alan Caldwell <cald...@cadvision.com> wrote in article
<33DDC6...@cadvision.com>...
------=_NextPart_000_01BC9BDD.5EC55680
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Alan, don't bother with trolls =
like this this.<br><br>Don<br><br><br>GO FLAMES<br><br>-- <br>As =
Einstein wrote,<br>"Science without religion is lame,<br>religion =
without science is blind." <br><br><br><br><font =
color=3D"#000080">Alan Caldwell <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>cald...@cadvision.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000080">> wrote in article <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>33DDC6...@cadvision.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000080">>...<br>| Gordon Fountain wrote:<br>| <br>| (Much =
crap deleted)<br>| <br>| > See, you can't win. Have fun in the =
western conference basement.<br>| <br>| Gordon, you're so full of shit. =
Up until now I thought you actually had<br>| a brain, unlike so many of =
your fellow Canucks NG inhabitants, but this<br>| post has caused me to =
change my mind. <br>| <br>| I'm not even going to waste my valuable time =
responding to your drivel.<br>| I'll just save it and then feed it back =
to you in midseason in the<br>| Canucks NG, in front of all your 5-year =
old friends. <br>| <br>| Oh by the way, the score is Calgary 1 Cup, =
Vancouver none. 'Nuf said.<br>| <br>| <br>| =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; Alan<br>| </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC9BDD.5EC55680--
Patrick Goss
Ya, Messier is a real big improvement for the Canuckelheads. 6
million per year for a 36 year old 80 point player who vanished in this
years playoffs (3 goals in 15 games). Assuming the Canuckleheads even
make the playoffs (BIG assumption) I am sure he will help lots. You know
getting water for the uninjured players. Vancouver got ripped off
bigtime. If Quin had half a brain and was serious about winning the
Stanley cup he would have given up the 5 first rounders and signed Sakic.
Wow, Messier will be really something at the age of 39. Definitly worth 6
million per season.
I am sure Bure will do real well under Messier. You know, that
Russian guy who's ass the Vancouver media blow sunshine up. The "Rocket"
who scored 23 goals, and has no heart, no guts, and no grit. By the end
of next season he'll be crying in a corner. WOW! What's he making 3 mil a
season? Lets not forget how good Gelinas was under Messier in Edmonton.
It took almost a decade for him to recover from that little experiance.
I'm sure Linden will do well alongside Messier, they both ought to get
about 40 points. How much is Linden making this season?
You guys ought to hire an accountant to show you that your bloated salary
earned you a whole 4 more points than Calgary, the same number as Ottawa,
and 4 less than Edmonton; the supposed "weak sisters" of the NHL.
The Canuckleheads have the finances to be a contender.
Unfortunitly they don't have the brains, savvey, or the personel for it.
Not to mention the new uniforms...YIKES. Welcome to corperate American.
Holy shit is your organization a joke.
Flashpoint
Jason Yeung
In article <33e0bb2b...@news.uniserve.com>, gar...@uniserve.com
says...
>
>On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:38:21 -0600, sele...@generation.net wrote:
>I think Vancouver is going to make it a hell of a lot farther than the
>flames. That'll be the day when Zarley Zalapski and Theoren Fleury are
>regarded as the best 2 players in hockey. Besides if Calgary does get
>any really good players they won't be able to afford them anyways.
>Calgary will always be at the bottom of the conference.
The Canucks certainly got better with the Messier signing, but I think
they will be a 5th place team in the West at best. The most glaring
weakness is at defence and even Messier's leadership can't save
the defence. I do see Vancouver going farther than Calgary in the
first few seasons, but in the long run, I see Calgary being OK, provided
they don't trade their (soon to be best) players away, like Edmonton.
I don't see Vancouver passing Detroit, Colorado or Dallas unless they
do something about that defence.
>Granted, the defense is the obvious flaw. Yeah, fluke stanley cup run.
>Your only mad because dear old Gary Roberts and Joe Nieuwendyk
>couldn't handle the pressure. And don't give me that crap about you
>guys winning the cup 6 or 7 years ago. And is the Flames defense any
>better? Step back and look at your team. Besides Fleury and Iginla
>what is there? Mclean and been plagued with injuries, he may still be
>the great goalie that he had shown to be in the playooffs.
Calgary's defence is young and rugged. They should be better than the
Canucks next season. That is one position Calgary is ahead of Vancouver.
Calgary's D could only get better as they get experience. Vancouver's
defence is probably as bad as Pittsburgh's. And the Canucks don't
have Kasparaitis.
>Messier brings more than his skill. Look at it from a Vancouver stand
>point. The reason the Canucks did so bad last year is because of
>players whining and nagging. Messeir doesn't put up with that. Also,
True, Vancouver had huge, internal problems. Messier should bring
them together. But if he doesn't, it will be a long season for Vancouver.
>Yeah, Canucks management is just so stupid. Face it your just bitter
>because the Canucks have so much more talent then the Flames. And as
>for the smarter GM, look at the players the Flames have traded away.
>They had a great team a few years ago, and what do they have to show
Calgary's GM works differently, because Pat Quinn's boss has a
significantly bigger wallet than Calgary's owners. So I personally
think Calgary's GM has done an excellent job under the circumstances.
Yes, he did trade away the old stars, but he has brought in some
young talent like Iginla (for Nieuwendyk).
Until the Mark Messier signing, I think Pat Quinn did a really bad job. When
other teams signed free agents, all he did was complain about how the
American teams signed these outrageous contracts to players like
Gilchrist and Skrudland. And the situation with Swede Mattias Ohlund
has not helped. For the money Quinn is giving for Ledyard, he could of
had Ohlund signed, sealed and delivered. I believe Ohlund only
wanted $850,000 a year ago. Now, his agent has raised the stakes.
>You wish you had one line of that calibre. We have 2. The Canucks and
>the Flames are 2 teams heading in different directions. It is very
The Flames are rebuilding, the Canucks want to win the Cup now.
Agreed.
>league. I wish small market Canadian teams could compete but they
>can't. The only reason the Canucks can afford is because they have an
>American owner, I acknowledge that.
Agreed. The Flames probably won't win the Stanley Cup again because
they couldn't afford the talent. The Canucks could, but it does take more
than talent to win the cup. Read: St. Louis Blues.
>Vancouver has a hell of a lot better defenseman than Calgary would
>ever get and still has about twice the offense of the Flames.
Until Blake comes to Vancouver, Calgary has the nod at D.
--
** Jason Yeung (jas...@uniserve.com)
** http://users.uniserve.com/~jasony/
** # 66 - Mario Lemieux! HHHEEEEEEE shoots and scores!!
**
** "My ideas ALWAYS work sometimes!!" - Will Smith in Bad Boys
sele...@generation.net
In article <33e0bb2b...@news.uniserve.com>,
gar...@uniserve.com (Gordon Fountain) wrote:
>
> On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:38:21 -0600, sele...@generation.net wrote:
>
> >suppose it improves the Canucks, and might make it a little harder for us
> >to make the playoffs. But are the Canucks contenders? No way.
> flames. That'll be the day when Zarley Zalapski and Theoren Fleury are
> regarded as the best 2 players in hockey.
Who, exactly, do the Canucks have who is one of the top 2players in
hockey? Have they traded for Lindros or Federov or Kariya or Leetch or
Jagr or Sakic while I wasn't looking?
Besides if Calgary does get
> any really good players they won't be able to afford them anyways.
> Calgary will always be at the bottom of the conference.
Well, you would certainly know about the bottom of the conference, being
a Canucks fan...
> >1)The Canucks think they need "leadership". This is the same impulse
> >that caused Risebrough to sign the decomposed corpses of Kelly Kisio and
> >Carey Wilson and Jim Peplinski. The Canucks need defencemen. You think
> >you're going to win anything with guys like Babych and Murzyn getting
> >serious ice time? The Canucks have *not* underachieved the past 3 years-
> >they've been consistent as cement. When you look at their whole roster
> >instead of being bowled over by the 3 famous people, you see good but
> >thin forwards. dencent but inconsistent goaltending, and an atrocious
> >defence corps. Sounds like a .500 team to me. Their fluke Stanley Cup
> >run makes them think they're a great team, but they're not, not even on
> >paper. This signing does nothing to rectify their most glaring
> >weaknesses.
> Granted, the defense is the obvious flaw. Yeah, fluke stanley cup run.
> Your only mad because dear old Gary Roberts and Joe Nieuwendyk
> couldn't handle the pressure
They were a mediocre team. It was a fluke run. Why hasn't it been
repeated?
. And don't give me that crap about you
> guys winning the cup 6 or 7 years ago. And is the Flames defense any
> better? Step back and look at your team. Besides Fleury and Iginla
> what is there?
I guess you intend this is a compiment, since the point of my post wasn't
that the Canucks aren't better than the Flames, but that they aren't
Stanley Cup contenders. I guess you see the Flames as the team to beat
in the conference. I don't agree, but hey, who am I to argue with the
likes of you?
Mclean and been plagued with injuries, he may still be
> the great goalie that he had shown to be in the playooffs.
And maybe if you picked a guy of the street, he'd be Dominik Hasek. And
which playoffs? The last two, he's been nothing special.
> >2)Messier was a great player, and he's still awfully good, but he's
> >ancient and extremely banged up. By the end of this contract, he might
> >not play 50 games. He might not this year.
> Messier brings more than his skill. Look at it from a Vancouver stand
> point. The reason the Canucks did so bad last year is because of
> players whining and nagging.
And because they're not a very good team. Why wasn't their record better
the previous two years? Is Linden not an effective leader?
Messeir doesn't put up with that. Also,
> Messier coming here takes the pressure of Bure so the defense doesn't
> concentrate on him so much, and gives Mogilny the center he said he
> wanted. We could be talking 2 100 pt scorers. Granted this is very
> unlikely but it could happen.
>
And even if they do, their defence still sucks, and the third and fourth
lines are San-Jose calibre. Basically, the Canucks are what you get if
you take Anaheim, add one good forward, and subtract one good goalie.
And Anaheim's best players are better than yours.
> >The Cancuks could benefit from this if they follow up by moving Linden
> >for a defenceman, but I trust that Pat Quinn will be too dumb to figure
> >this out...
> Yeah, Canucks management is just so stupid. Face it your just bitter
> because the Canucks have so much more talent then the Flames.
Then why do the Flames have a better record over the past three years?
What are the great moves you're talking about, anyway? Esa Tikannen (who
vastly outplayed Messier in the playoffs) and Courtnall for Noonan and
Nemcihnov? Signing Gary Leeman? Signing Jim Sandlak? Hey, do you guys
know that Gary Lupil is still available?
And as
> for the smarter GM, look at the players the Flames have traded away.
Since I've criticized Risebrough so frequently on this group, I assume
you're talking to your imiganiary friend. Why are you so obsessed with
the Flames, anyway?
> They had a great team a few years ago, and what do they have to show
> for it, Jocelyn Lemieux? oh wait you couldn't afford him either. Look
> at the possible top 2 lines for the Canucks now:
>
One more great team than you've ever had.
> Mogilny-Messier-Bure
> Gelinas-Linden-Noonan/Naslund
>
> You wish you had one line of that calibre. We have 2. The Canucks and
> the Flames are 2 teams heading in different directions. It is very
> obvious the flames will never be able to compete because they just
> can't afford it, plain and simple. If you get any players that are
> very talented, come contract negotiations they will be gone to New
> York or Vancouver. Vancouver now has the highest payroll in the
> league. We can afford it, you can't. It's the simple ligistics of the
> league. I wish small market Canadian teams could compete but they
> can't. The only reason the Canucks can afford is because they have an
> American owner, I acknowledge that.
>
They also had a high payroll last year, and they still sucked. So what?
Don't you guys ever learn? Look at the whole team, not just the first
two lines. There's no way they're as good as Colorado or Detroit.
> Yes, it's pretty obvious to trade a forward for a defenesmen. First
> off Ohlund will be coming to the organization basically for sure, so
> there is a D-man right there. Ledyard won't hurt. i'm not sure if
> you've heard the rumor: Bure to LA for Blake. Well there you go,
> Vancouver has a hell of a lot better defenseman than Calgary would
> ever get and still has about twice the offense of the Flames.
>
I agree, Quinn is a much better GM if you give him credit for trades he
hasn't actually made. I hear the Flames will be getting Chris Chelios
for Todd Hlusko- I guess Coates is a genius.
> See, you can't win. Have fun in the western conference basement.
You've done a nice job keeping it warm for us...
-Scott Lemieux
Charlene Rudeichuk
In article <5rpjol$brd$1...@neptune.uniserve.com>, jas...@uniserve.com (Jason
Yeung) wrote:
> In article <33e0bb2b...@news.uniserve.com>, gar...@uniserve.com
> says...
> >
> >On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:38:21 -0600, sele...@generation.net wrote:
^^^^^^^^
> >I think Vancouver is going to make it a hell of a lot farther than the
> >flames. That'll be the day when Zarley Zalapski and Theoren Fleury are
> >regarded as the best 2 players in hockey. Besides if Calgary does get
> >any really good players they won't be able to afford them anyways.
> >Calgary will always be at the bottom of the conference.
Hi, Jason. I know that you've obviously just snipped this incorrectly, but
since Scott Lemieux's server doesn't seem to be getting any of his posts
to this group (that I can see anyway) I've agreed to defend him and
mention that he *did not* post this. It was that idiot Canucks fan. BTW,
I'm in awe of your ability to remain so rational in response to that
post... :)
Charlene
#1 Flames fan in Vancouver
<snip>
Charlene Rudeichuk
In article <rudeichu-310...@hcc2108.cstudies.sfu.ca>,
rude...@sfu.ca (Charlene Rudeichuk) wrote:
> In article <5rpjol$brd$1...@neptune.uniserve.com>, jas...@uniserve.com (Jason
> Yeung) wrote:
>
> > In article <33e0bb2b...@news.uniserve.com>, gar...@uniserve.com
> > says...
> > >
> > >On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:38:21 -0600, sele...@generation.net wrote:
> ^^^^^^^^
> > >I think Vancouver is going to make it a hell of a lot farther than the
> > >flames. That'll be the day when Zarley Zalapski and Theoren Fleury are
> > >regarded as the best 2 players in hockey. Besides if Calgary does get
> > >any really good players they won't be able to afford them anyways.
> > >Calgary will always be at the bottom of the conference.
>
> Hi, Jason. I know that you've obviously just snipped this incorrectly, but
> since Scott Lemieux's server doesn't seem to be getting any of his posts
> to this group (that I can see anyway) I've agreed to defend him and
> mention that he *did not* post this. It was that idiot Canucks fan. BTW,
> I'm in awe of your ability to remain so rational in response to that
> post... :)
>
> Charlene
> #1 Flames fan in Vancouver
Wouldn't you know it?--He gets through right after I post this...
Charlene
Boris Peresechensky
Do you think Calgary might be interested in making an offer to Rob
Niedermayer or Chris Gratton ? It makes sense for them to try to sign
these players as both are young (21-22) would only cost 2-3 draft
picks and fit in their rebuilding scheme.
Gordon Fountain
On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 13:47:46 -0700, rude...@sfu.ca (Charlene
Rudeichuk) wrote:
>> Are you saying that is not true? Calgary can't afford the talented
>> players in the NHL anymore. Yes or no? I'm just stating it like it is.
>> If you read this newsgroup and knew nothing about the NHL you'd guess
>> the Flames were a championship team!
>
>Well, as Scott suggested I ask, just which players on the Canucks are
>regarded as the best two players in hockey? And we can afford Fleury, or
>we wouldn't have him. And when's the last time the Canucks finished ahead
>of Calgary in the conference before this year? BTW, the Flames were a
>championship team: the year was 1989.
I really phrased that wrong whole best 2 players in hockey thing wrong
I don't know exactly what i was thinking. Theoren Fleury is a decent
player but he won't win games by himself. The point is Vancouver will
finish ahead of the Flames, they've improved their team so thats one
less spot Calgary can fight for. I assumed since this was in the
Flames newsgroup you would be discussing whether the Flames had to be
worried about the Canucks but I guess scott was trying to say
Vancouver won't win the Stanley Cup, which they won't unless the
entire team gets hot at once. Maybe Quinn will be able to bring in
another decent player with Corey Hirsch or Kirk Mclean? I really doubt
it will be much but it seems one of the 2 Canucks goalies will be
traded now that Vancouver has Artus Irbe
Charlene Rudeichuk
In article <33ebb08e...@news.uniserve.com>, gar...@uniserve.com
(Gordon Fountain) wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 13:47:46 -0700, rude...@sfu.ca (Charlene
> Rudeichuk) wrote:
>
>
> >> Are you saying that is not true? Calgary can't afford the talented
> >> players in the NHL anymore. Yes or no? I'm just stating it like it is.
> >> If you read this newsgroup and knew nothing about the NHL you'd guess
> >> the Flames were a championship team!
> >
> >Well, as Scott suggested I ask, just which players on the Canucks are
> >regarded as the best two players in hockey? And we can afford Fleury, or
> >we wouldn't have him. And when's the last time the Canucks finished ahead
> >of Calgary in the conference before this year? BTW, the Flames were a
> >championship team: the year was 1989.
> I really phrased that wrong whole best 2 players in hockey thing wrong
> I don't know exactly what i was thinking. Theoren Fleury is a decent
> player but he won't win games by himself.
Well, Mogilny and Bure can't win games by themselves, either.
The point is Vancouver will
> finish ahead of the Flames, they've improved their team so thats one
> less spot Calgary can fight for.
Sure, they have Messier, but who else have they added? My point is the
addition of Messier doesn't ensure that the Canucks are going to finish
any better than they did last year. I don't see where the big improvements
are that you're suggesting. And offence can only get you so far without
any defence.
I assumed since this was in the
> Flames newsgroup you would be discussing whether the Flames had to be
> worried about the Canucks but I guess scott was trying to say
> Vancouver won't win the Stanley Cup, which they won't unless the
> entire team gets hot at once.
Well, of course there's always been a pretty good rivalry between the
Canucks and the Flames, but I only see our team getting better, as we've
got a lot of talented youth in the system. What do the Canucks have?
Maybe Quinn will be able to bring in
> another decent player with Corey Hirsch or Kirk Mclean? I really doubt
> it will be much but it seems one of the 2 Canucks goalies will be
> traded now that Vancouver has Artus Irbe
I guess we'll see.
Charlene
cald...@cadvision.com
Boris Peresechensky <bp...@columbia.edu> wrote:
An attempt for Niedermayer would be futile because an offer in the
$1.7 million a year range (the range for three first rounders) would
simply be matched by the Panthers, no question.
Gratton is probably ripe for the picking given Tampa's disarray in
the ownership department. But I have my doubts about whether he's
worth even two first rounders. He's not very fast and breakout season
or not, he has only had one good year. At this point in his career I
would not be interested at that potential price.
Alan
Alan Caldwell
Gordon Fountain wrote:
> Are you saying that is not true? Calgary can't afford the talented
> players in the NHL anymore. Yes or no? I'm just stating it like it is.
The Flames are not opposed to paying the true stars. They are, however,
opposed to overpaying players. Like $20 million for 37 year old Mark
Messier. Or in the Oilers' case, $2.5 million for Luke Richardson.
If the Flames had Paul Kariya, I'm quite sure they could find $4 or $5
million a year for him. But second and third line players do not put
seats in the seats and do not deserve the mega salaries they are
currently getting. $2 million a year for Mike Keane? No thanks.
Theoren Fleury does get $2.4 million US, which is fair for him. Nobody
else on the team is currently deserving of more than that. So I really
have no clue why you think the Flames can't pay the stars.
> If you read this newsgroup and knew nothing about the NHL you'd guess
> the Flames were a championship team!
And if you read the Canucks newsgroups and knew nothing about the NHL
you'd be so turned off of hockey you'd never have anything to do with
the sport again.
I don't see anybody here suggesting the Flames are a championship
calibre team, Gordo. Most fans in this NG are pretty grounded in
reality, as opposed to Canucks fans who have their heads in the clouds
despite having absolutely no justification for doing so. The much-hyped
Vancouver contenders last season went splat, and Messier or no Messier,
there is no reason to believe this season will be any better. The
Canucks defence and goaltending still bite the big one.
I wouldn't trade our defence for yours, or our goaltending for yours.
Alan
Vlad the Impaler
gar...@uniserve.com (Gordon Fountain) wrote:
>Yeah, Canucks management is just so stupid. Face it your just bitter
>for the smarter GM, look at the players the Flames have traded away.
>for it, Jocelyn Lemieux? oh wait you couldn't afford him either. Look
>at the possible top 2 lines for the Canucks now:
>Mogilny-Messier-Bure
>Gelinas-Linden-Noonan/Naslund
>You wish you had one line of that calibre. We have 2. The Canucks and
>the Flames are 2 teams heading in different directions. It is very
>obvious the flames will never be able to compete because they just
>can't afford it, plain and simple. If you get any players that are
>very talented, come contract negotiations they will be gone to New
>York or Vancouver. Vancouver now has the highest payroll in the
>league. We can afford it, you can't. It's the simple ligistics of the
>league. I wish small market Canadian teams could compete but they
>can't. The only reason the Canucks can afford is because they have an
>American owner, I acknowledge that.
Yeah, Canucks management is just so stupid. With a payroll twice that
of the Flames they did as well as Calgary - actually, not quite as
well since the Flames have Dan Tkaczuk and the Canucks drafted another
pylon whom they can develop into another Dana Murzyn. You are right -
the Flames and the Canucks are heading in different directions; the
Flames are on their way up, while the Canucks are heading into
oblivion. The Flames have a ton of young talent, the Canucks have
none, besides the amazing Lonny Bohonos. And you seriously believe
that Vancouver can outspend the Rangers for an extended period of
time? Orca-boy will get tired of losing $10-20 M every year, and will
sell the team - don't you realize the Canucks are becoming Leafs-West?
A bunch of overpaid, old players. Two great forward lines, but
mediocre goaltending, and 1 NHL-calibre defenseman if he is healthy.
>Yes, it's pretty obvious to trade a forward for a defenesmen. First
>off Ohlund will be coming to the organization basically for sure, so
>there is a D-man right there. Ledyard won't hurt. i'm not sure if
>you've heard the rumor: Bure to LA for Blake. Well there you go,
>Vancouver has a hell of a lot better defenseman than Calgary would
>ever get and still has about twice the offense of the Flames.
The signing of Ledyard is right up there in terms of brilliance with
the Sharks signing of Houlder. Going to match the Leafs offer to
Ohlund and add another $2M to the payroll? Now that Ron the Moron
Caron has left the game, the Moron Caron Cup is up for grabs between
two worthy contestants - Lombardi and Quinn.
>See, you can't win. Have fun in the western conference basement.
I'll be happy to take another top 5 pick. Better than finishing out of
the playoffs with a $40 million payroll.
Charlene Rudeichuk
In article <33e8ea94...@news.uniserve.com>, gar...@uniserve.com
(Gordon Fountain) wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:36:28 -0700, rude...@sfu.ca (Charlene
> Rudeichuk) wrote:
>
> >In article <5rpjol$brd$1...@neptune.uniserve.com>, jas...@uniserve.com (Jason
> >Yeung) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <33e0bb2b...@news.uniserve.com>, gar...@uniserve.com
> >> says...
> >> >
> >> >On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:38:21 -0600, sele...@generation.net wrote:
> > ^^^^^^^^
> >> >I think Vancouver is going to make it a hell of a lot farther than the
> >> >flames. That'll be the day when Zarley Zalapski and Theoren Fleury are
> >> >regarded as the best 2 players in hockey. Besides if Calgary does get
> >> >any really good players they won't be able to afford them anyways.
> >> >Calgary will always be at the bottom of the conference.
> >
> >Hi, Jason. I know that you've obviously just snipped this incorrectly, but
> >since Scott Lemieux's server doesn't seem to be getting any of his posts
> >to this group (that I can see anyway) I've agreed to defend him and
> >mention that he *did not* post this. It was that idiot Canucks fan. BTW,
> >I'm in awe of your ability to remain so rational in response to that
> >post... :)
> Are you saying that is not true? Calgary can't afford the talented
> players in the NHL anymore. Yes or no? I'm just stating it like it is.
> If you read this newsgroup and knew nothing about the NHL you'd guess
> the Flames were a championship team!
Well, as Scott suggested I ask, just which players on the Canucks are
regarded as the best two players in hockey? And we can afford Fleury, or
we wouldn't have him. And when's the last time the Canucks finished ahead
of Calgary in the conference before this year? BTW, the Flames were a
championship team: the year was 1989.
Charlene
Gordon Fountain
Felix Leiter
One little thing though. Kariya one the open market could fetch around
8-10 million per season, resigning with the Ducks when his contract is up
he'll still probably demand, and get, 6+ per season. Lindros apparently
wants 10 million per season. Now if you think those numbers are rubbish,
well, just wait, that's the kind the of numbers that will be handed out to
these players just because the Luke Richardson's and other make 2.5 mil per
season. Unfortunately that's the reality of the NHL and teams like
Edmonton, Calgary will not be able to compete (financially). Of course
they may be able to sing one A+ player but then not be able to surround him
will other veterans (good or not) due to their inflated salaries. The
solution is to concentrate on drafting well and hopefully keeping some of
your better players past the conclusion of their first contracts. In any
case, if you think that stars will be getting 4-5 million per season you've
got a bug shock coming. That's what they paid Bure (back when he produced)
3 years ago. Frankly, I hope the Flames and other fiscally challenged
teams can manage to be competitive because it makes for good hockey.
Felix
Alan Caldwell <cald...@cadvision.com> wrote in article
> Gordon Fountain wrote:
>
> > Are you saying that is not true? Calgary can't afford the talented
> > players in the NHL anymore. Yes or no? I'm just stating it like it is.
>
> The Flames are not opposed to paying the true stars. They are, however,
> opposed to overpaying players. Like $20 million for 37 year old Mark
> Messier. Or in the Oilers' case, $2.5 million for Luke Richardson.
>
> If the Flames had Paul Kariya, I'm quite sure they could find $4 or $5
> million a year for him. But second and third line players do not put
> seats in the seats and do not deserve the mega salaries they are
> currently getting. $2 million a year for Mike Keane? No thanks.
> Theoren Fleury does get $2.4 million US, which is fair for him. Nobody
> else on the team is currently deserving of more than that. So I really
> have no clue why you think the Flames can't pay the stars.
>
> > If you read this newsgroup and knew nothing about the NHL you'd guess
> > the Flames were a championship team!
>
Jason Yeung
In article <rudeichu-050...@hcc2108.cstudies.sfu.ca>,
rude...@sfu.ca says...
>Well, Mogilny and Bure can't win games by themselves, either.
really poor.
>Sure, they have Messier, but who else have they added? My point is the
>addition of Messier doesn't ensure that the Canucks are going to finish
>any better than they did last year. I don't see where the big improvements
>are that you're suggesting. And offence can only get you so far without
>any defence.
Yeah, Pittsburgh had all the firepower (Jagr and my man Mario), but
their defence was poor. They didn't get very far. In the playoffs, you
don't expect to win games 10-9, but 4-3 or 2-0. So the defence and
goaltending does help. Messier won't help the defence, Bret Hedican
threatens holdout, Ohlund might be a Maple Leaf by Thursday. I
don't see Vancouver going far with a D of Babych, Murzyn, Lumme,
Ledyard and a few minor leaguers.
We'll see when the regular season begins.
--
Vlad the Impaler
"Gasper \"BASSMAN\" Spagnolo" <kc....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Apperantly, The Maple Leafs offered Shinider for Ohland and they turn it
>down. How stupid could they be? Now thier going to lose him.
>Gasper
Quinn said last night that Vancouver will match the Leafs offer. Of
course, he could just be trying to sound tough to force the Leafs into
surrendering something significant. I have had no doubts for a couple
of years now that Quinn is an idiot and, now that the fiscally
responsible McPhee is out of there, things will really get stupid in
VAN.
Alan Caldwell
Felix Leiter wrote:
> he'll still probably demand, and get, 6+ per season. Lindros
> apparently wants 10 million per season. Now if you think those
> numbers are rubbish, well, just wait, that's the kind the of numbers
> that will be handed out to these players just because the Luke
The ceiling is coming soon. Without a major TV contract, even the
rich NHL teams have their limits as to how much they can spend since
revenues are nowhere near say, the NBA's. Depending on how you do the
math, the Canucks' payroll could be $45 million or higher this coming
season. I doubt they can make a profit at that level.
> Richardson's and other make 2.5 mil per season. Unfortunately that's
> the reality of the NHL and teams like Edmonton, Calgary will not be
> able to compete (financially).
Some people are going to call me crazy, but I bet the Flames would
pay Lindros $10 million per season if they could get him. Because in
terms of what he brings to the team both on the ice and in the marketing
department, he's worth that much. With a major, major superstar like
Lindros in the lineup, they can justify a big increase in ticket
prices. They can justify a big increase in local TV money, etc, etc.
Keep in mind that the Flames did get involved in the Lindros sweepstakes
five years ago; with a better offer who knows, Lindros COULD have been
a Flame today.
It's going to end up like the NBA - the big stars get the really big
bucks and the 4th/5th best players plus bench players get peanuts. The
Flames can pay their first liners market value. They're just not going
to pay their second liners first line money like some teams do.
> they may be able to sing one A+ player but then not be able to
> surround him will other veterans (good or not) due to their inflated
Basically my above point - they can sign their first liners but their
second liners don't get the same money. Which of course means they
lose their second liners.
> 3 years ago. Frankly, I hope the Flames and other fiscally challenged
> teams can manage to be competitive because it makes for good hockey.
I'm not overly worried. As long as the CBA rules remain as they are,
Calgary will be able to keep most, if not all, of their stars until
they're at least 31. I can't see a lot of raiding of restricted free
agents in the future - the Rangers just signed Joe Sakic and if they
get to keep him, they cannot sign another restricted free agent until
the summer of 2002 because they won't have the required first round
picks to give up. So that will put them out of commission on the RFA
market for quite a while. It won't take too many cases like that
before the risk of losing players is quite diminished.
That's not to say that something like a salary cap or revenue sharing
wouldn't be even better though. :-)
Alan
Vlad the Impaler
In article <01bca304$434010c0$0fb5...@drno.intergate.bc.ca>, "Felix Leiter" <fle...@cia.gov> says:
>
>Not to say you couldn't win with one highly paid superstar and good kids
>and modestly paid vets but you always will be competing with those with the
>funds to outspend. It will be interesting to see what develops but I
>wonder if it will turn into something like MLB with the obvious have's and
>have not's, and basically you can predict who will finish at the top and
>the bottom based on their payrolls.
The only hope for the Flames is to draft, trade, and
develop talent as well as the Expos do. I think they
are on the right track - I hope Sutter can do what
Alou does in Montreal. I think what the Flames really
need is a goalie (a la Buffalo), even if he accounts
for 1/4 to 1/3 of their payroll, because that will
keep them competitive. They should keep drafting 2 or
3 every year in the hope that at least one turns out
to be that guy.
Thus Spake Vlad the Impaler
---------------------------------------------
Those who beat their swords into ploughshares
will be doing the plowing for those who don't
---------------------------------------------
Terry
In article <19970813154...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, hara...@aol.com (Hara Hara) wrote:
>All I can say is, how many cups have the Canuckleheads won? AND with all
>that talent last year they weren't much better than the Flames. As long
>as Pat"Take the money and run" Quinn is running the show ( remember how
>he valiantly claimed he would honor the rest of his L.A. Kings contract
>after signing with Vancouver), the Canucks are doomed to the middle of the
>pack.
>Quinn was an average defensemen and a below-average GM.
>
>By the way, Donnie Lever was the best player the Canucks ever had and they
>traded him for Ivan Boldirev and Darcy Rota! I can't recall which team
>fleeced them, can you?
hahahahahahaha!!!
Now you my friend are truly funny!
What have the flames done in the off-season? Who have they picked up?
Is Fluery happy with the coach and management? Do you think he's going to put
his heart into a team that treats him like shit? HAH! All you have is Iginla,
that's it, that's all.
Don't slam anouther team that has more talent down its right wing than your
teams entire roster has. Calgary is going to be the bottom feeders of the
league next season. Enjoy guys, and that's right : Don't be affraid. Just give
up.
Hara Hara
Hara Hara
I have nothing against the Canucks. I wish them and Mark well. Your
right, they do have more talent than the Flames, the problem is their GM.
The Canucks will go nowhere until they get rid of Pat Quinn
Gasper "BASSMAN" Spagnolo
Terry wrote:
>
> In article <19970813154...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, hara...@aol.com (Hara Hara) wrote:
>
> Now you my friend are truly funny!
> What have the flames done in the off-season? Who have they picked up?
> Is Fluery happy with the coach and management? Do you think he's going to put
> his heart into a team that treats him like shit? HAH! All you have is Iginla,
> that's it, that's all.
> Don't slam anouther team that has more talent down its right wing than your
> teams entire roster has. Calgary is going to be the bottom feeders of the
> league next season. Enjoy guys, and that's right : Don't be affraid. Just give
> up.
belong, VANCOUVER SUCKS!!! Just because they could buy a 36 year has
been doesn't mean their goint to be contenders. They have crap defence
and even shiter goalies. Either Kidd or Tabaracci is better than McLean
or Hirsh. We got talented defencemen in Zalapski and Patrick with great
defensive prospects in Morris, O'Sullivan, Simpson, Bouchard, and Hulse.
Who do you have, Ohland and ? Vancouver make me sick.
We got one of the best youger players in the NHL in Iginla, Hoglund,
Gavey, Stillman and great Vets like Fleury, Titov, McInnis, Stern.
Gasper