STILL NEED TO FIRE GILBERT?
mrchipsgonebad
Think back to the terrific start to last year. In the beginning Calgary was
taking teams by surprise. Probably more of a fluke than a bright spot in
Gilberts coaching record. The hot start was a classic case of teams not
taking Calgary seriously, hence the only losses came from Pheonix, Nashville
(2), and Chicago in the first 20 games. All teams that are similar or
lower in the standing than the Flames. Wins came against Detriot, Toronto,
Colorado, Montreal all teams usually ahead of Calgary in the standings.
Other wins came against Anaheim, Columbus, Minnisota all teams one would
expect Calgary to beat. By the 20 game mark no-one was taking Calgary
lightly. Sadly, this was the turning point up 6-3 in the 3 rd period to LA
only to let 3 in and settle for a tie. It has all been down hill since
then. The Flames have ammassed a stellar 24-43-12-4 record since that day.
Thats right .385 hockey. I don't know many leagues where this will get you
to the playoffs.
You can blame Turek and his signing a big deal. You can blame Iginla's slow
start or his big deal. You can say that Morris wrist injury and then his
trade have all been reasons for the Flames losing, but...
Let us not forget:
Team captain Dave Lowry, though having an awful season stipped of "C",
Savard coming back off injury benched and disgraced. New season: Savard
benched yet again, kicked and embarrassed, trade value stripped and sent
away for a log, seven games without a win only scoring 2 goals. The
leagues worst PP. Rumours the team has quit on the coach, (at least quit
listening)...
The list goes on...
The win against Chicago was probably a fluke. Out shot 34 -19 and Turek
playing large.
If Calgary goes 10-2-3 or something close to that over the next 15 I may
reconsider these thoughts, but we all know how likely that is.
Find someone, anyone cause this guy is not the guy.
Sinfire
till december that savard complained about not being on the first line
with Iginla that he demanded that he be traded. And that is when all
the Savard saga started.
Savard was benched cause he had an attitude problem. And basically
over the year of asking for trades, taking extended shifts, and being
a defensive liability he was benched. And he never grew up from that.
But he is not the one to blame.
Personally, I have my own theory of why the flames were doing so bad.
And it is the Turek Jinx Theory.
mrchipsgonebad
Gilbert it seems that he can not tolerate certain people or ideas. He wants
to win no doubt, and I almost feel sorry for the guy, but I think when you
put all the emotional stuff aside he is not a very qualified coach.
He has coached professional hockey for only 5 years, surely Calgary can find
a more experienced coach that can find ways to win. Gilbert seems to be
stuck in textbook style systems and the problems with textbooks that are: 1)
theory is almost never achieved 2) textbooks are easy to read 3) textbooks
are boring to read 4) textbooks become antiquated 5) textbooks need to be
replaced roughly every year...
Look at Vancouver. They stunk when Crawford came in, but have started to
play his systems and are now sitting pretty. I think if you compare the
Flames to the Canucks you have very similar teams. TSN power ranking aside,
I would say that with the addition of Drury, Yelle and Gelinas the Flames
stack up pretty well to Vancouver. So one might argue it may just take a
little time for the team to play Gilbert's systems, but I think for the most
part they are. They seldom get blown out, they are responsible in their own
end, but this is not the problem. The problem is breakout, execution and
creativity. Gilbert does not seem to be able to change game plans to adapt
to situation. Teams learn this quickly and read their syatem like text.
This is why they can not complete passes in the neutral zone, get pucks
inside traffic infront of the net, score on the PP. Because other teams
know Flame strategy and go and shut them down.
"Sinfire" <Sinfire@a.b> wrote in message
news:4h42uukhpeb9vkvgg...@4ax.com...
Bob Peck
mrchipsgonebad wrote:
> I would say that with the addition of Drury, Yelle and Gelinas the Flames
> stack up pretty well to Vancouver.
I'll never understand how this kind of fallacy gets repeated over and
over in here, and almost nobody ever questions it.
But mostly I'm so curious about what it is that makes Calgary fans so
unrealistically optimistic It seems like a really positive trait, but I
just don't get where it comes from.
slik
> But mostly I'm so curious about what it is that makes Calgary fans so
> unrealistically optimistic It seems like a really positive trait, but I
> just don't get where it comes from.
It's called being a fan.
And mrchips, I agree with your comments.
Lemieux
By how much is Vancouver better?
In what ways are the Canucks better?
How do you compare these two teams point by point?
How do you compare their players and managements?
I am very interested to know.
"Bob Peck"
News
"Sinfire" <Sinfire@a.b> wrote in message
news:4h42uukhpeb9vkvgg...@4ax.com...
> till december that savard complained about not being on the first line
> with Iginla that he demanded that he be traded. And that is when all
> the Savard saga started.
PAUSE. Savard didn't "Demand" to be traded. I know I'm spiltting hairs
here, but there is a difference. He suggested that it might be better if he
was traded. That IS what he said. I can go find quotes if you *really*
need me to. I'm sure they're online somewhere. I just get annoyed when
people make someone out to be a villian by using misleading information.
(Not meant as an insult/attack Sinfire)
> Savard was benched cause he had an attitude problem. And basically
> over the year of asking for trades, taking extended shifts, and being
> a defensive liability he was benched. And he never grew up from that.
He took a few extended shifts, there is no real proof that he had an
attitude problem and was put into situations where he could be nothing but a
defensive liability.
He should have learned after the first long-shift benching - Of course.
As for the bad attitude, it seems that most of his teamates (From the quotes
we all saw) were somewhat sad to see him go, and that they generally liked
him. (As someone put it, like an annoying little brother)
> But he is not the one to blame.
He is to blame of course, but certainly not the only one. Coach Dilbert
should spend more time working on his people skills, and less time working
on his hair..
News
I *always* put those aside! TSN - The Stupid Network.
Buy & Sell
they hit the ice.
"Bob Peck" <Bobp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3DE19FC3...@comcast.net...
Englebert Lau
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Buy & Sell wrote:
> We do stack up pretty even on paper. Flames are Like the Titanic, good till
> they hit the ice.
You think we stack up to Vancouver's forwards on paper? Didn't they lead
the NHL in goal scoring last season?
Their forward group is collectively much better than the Flames,
particularly with Conroy and Iginla off their offensive game. Bertuzzi
and Naslund are one of the better one-two forward combinations in the
league...
- Eng
Buy & Sell
season, obviously their players had more points. But now with Yelle, Drury
and Gelinas we are definitely stacked up even with the Canucks.
The big difference I see is the Coaching. An experienced coach that won a
Stanley cup versus an NHL rookie head coach.
"Englebert Lau" <en...@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.44.021125...@acs1.acs.ucalgary.ca...
Mike F.
"Englebert Lau" <en...@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.44.021125...@acs1.acs.ucalgary.ca...
>
I'm not exactly unbiased, but I don't think that the Canucks are
collectively much better. I think the talent of Drury and Iginla is pretty
comparable to Naslund and Bertuzzi, although a little younger and less
experienced and thus not surprisingly less consistant. Offensively I think
Morrison is probably better than Conroy, but Conroy is the better all around
player. The Flames second three, Kobasew-Neidermayer-Gelinas vs the Canucks
second three, Sedin-Linden-Sedin: had the Flames still had Savard in there,
I'd argue that the Flames were better, but with Neidermayer you have to give
a small edge to the Canucks now and maybe a bigger edge if the Sedin's ever
begin to approach their potential. Third lines: Clark-Yelle-Wright vs.
Cooke-Klatt-Chubarov (I'm guessing); I'd give the Flames the edge, Yelle is
an excellent defensive centre and Clark is really coming into his own as a
legitimate third line scorer. Fourth lines: Sloan-Johansson-Nichol vs.
Warriner? Letowski? Others?: Who knows? The point is that, talent-for-talent
the Flames aren't significantly weaker, but are actually comparable up
front. The main difference? -- Marc Crawford.
Mike.
Jay Random
>
> I'm not exactly unbiased, but I don't think that the Canucks are
> collectively much better. I think the talent of Drury and Iginla is pretty
> comparable to Naslund and Bertuzzi, although a little younger and less
> experienced and thus not surprisingly less consistant. Offensively I think
> Morrison is probably better than Conroy, but Conroy is the better all around
> player. The Flames second three, Kobasew-Neidermayer-Gelinas vs the Canucks
> second three, Sedin-Linden-Sedin: had the Flames still had Savard in there,
> I'd argue that the Flames were better, but with Neidermayer you have to give
> a small edge to the Canucks now and maybe a bigger edge if the Sedin's ever
> begin to approach their potential. Third lines: Clark-Yelle-Wright vs.
> Cooke-Klatt-Chubarov (I'm guessing); I'd give the Flames the edge, Yelle is
> an excellent defensive centre and Clark is really coming into his own as a
> legitimate third line scorer. Fourth lines: Sloan-Johansson-Nichol vs.
> Warriner? Letowski? Others?: Who knows? The point is that, talent-for-talent
> the Flames aren't significantly weaker, but are actually comparable up
> front. The main difference? -- Marc Crawford.
Marc Crawford & Lady Luck. Remember, last season at this time, the
Canucks were one of the worst teams in the league & the Flames were on
top of the world. The Flames have actually improved their personnel
since then but are getting worse results. The Canucks have made some
smaller acquisitions, not enough to account for their huge improvement.
The difficulty when a team has bad luck is that the players & coaches
start trying to change their whole game to 'get something going'. In the
process, they throw away the skills & strategies that _could_ win them
games, & actually come to deserve their bad luck.
Kevin L. Hogg
SAVARD ASKS FOR A TRADE - AGAIN
September 13, 2002
Flames centre Marc Savard has once again asked Calgary general manager Craig
Button for a trade.
``Yes, I asked for a trade at the end of the year,'' Savard told the Calgary
Sun. ``It's not a big thing I want to comment on ... but it's in Craig's
hands right now and that's where we're at.''
The request came at the end of a frustrating season during which the former
65-point scorer suffered an early knee injury that allowed Craig Conroy to
replace him on the top line alongside his roomie, Jarome Iginla.
And after giving it plenty of thought this summer, his stance didn't change.
The frustrated Savard made a much more public trade request just before
Christmas following a lengthy feud with coach Greg Gilbert, who has long
taken issue with Savard's conditioning and inability to buy into a team
concept.
The Christmas trade demand prompted Gilbert to bench the talented pivot and
led to a second half in which the team's best passer was unable to
contribute meaningfully to the team as a third- and fourth-liner.
Before departing for the summer, Savard tried hard to discount it all as
water under the bridge and said he hoped to come back this year with a clean
slate and renewed optimism.
Then came the hushed trade request.
``There were a bunch of (issues with coach Gilbert) and I don't know if
they've all been settled but it's just something we're going to have to deal
with right now,'' said Savard, who was fifth in team scoring with 14 goals
and 19 assists in 56 games.
``I look back on the season and maybe the coach had a feeling in his head
that, 'We won without him and why can't we keep doing it?' In my mind. I'm
saying, 'I can help,' and in his mind he's not letting me help. It was tough
on both of us.
``Obviously, I asked for a trade last year and everybody knows about that.
This year, going into camp, I don't know what's going to happen _ if I'm
going to be traded still or what. I'm going to go into camp, I'm going to
work hard and have a good pre-season, put up some numbers and win some games
and we'll take it from there.''
Button is willing to be patient while searching for the right deal and may
not pull the trigger at all.
``Our team has goals and Marc has goals and while there can be some request
to do things a different way, he doesn't need to fall short of reaching his
goals,'' Button said.
"News" <dhaf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yutE9.48378$ea.7...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Bob Peck
I'm not gonna go through the whole thing again, but Gelinas is a
career checking line forward now being asked to masquerade as a
first-line left wing.
Craig Conroy I like. If he was the 3rd line checking center
(which he was for most of his career), he would be the premier
player in the league in that role, and give the Flames an edge
over every team.
If he was the 2nd line center, he'd be "solid", and the Flames
would have no problem.
As the first line center, he's terribly miscast, being asked to
fill a role he isn't up to, and overmatched against what any
"good" team would consider to be a true 1st line center. I
repeat - I like Craig Conroy. It's not his fault.
But up against.... Thornton-Rolston-Brind'amour-Sakic-Forsberg-Modano-
Fedorov-Yzerman-Comrie-Jokinen-Allison-Koivu-Perreault-Lindros-Nedved-
Yashin-Lindros-Bonk-Roenick-Lemieux-Weight-Lecavalier-Sundin-
Morrison-Lang.... he doesn't stack up as a first line center.
This is where somebody relies..."well that's not exactly fair, you
just named all the best centers in the league...." And yes,
I did. And that's the whole point. I just named 25 guys, and
he's not one of them. AND HE SHOULDN'T BE EXPECTED TO BE.
Here's a partial of the guys he's "about the same as" at this point of
his (and their) career: Rucchin-Francis-Turgeon-Marchant-Ronning-
Madden-Messier-Bonk (maybe)-Primeau-Hrdina-Damphousse (doubtful)....
All good solid veteran players, perfectly cast in a lesser
responsibility than first line center who's expected to carry a good
hunk of the offense.
Somewhere around here, somebody is going to say "but we were
talking about comparing the Flames to the Canucks". I notice
that in all the follow-up posts, nobody bothered to mention
where the Flames lag badly behind the Canucks, and virtually every
other team in the league. The 6-man defensive rotation.
Forgetting current injuries and such, the Flames rotation is....
Regehr - Lydman
Gauthier - Boughner
Buzek - Leopold
In that mix are 3 guys that MIGHT form a solid core 2-3 years
from now, one of whom looks especially good for the FUTURE
(Leopold), but as a current group of 6, they stink and are not
NHL caliber. Tell me another team besides Atlanta that would
switch their group of 6 with the Flames group of 6. If you can
really name 2 or 3 others, I'd probably argue a few of them, but
even if you can, it would make the Flames defense corps rank in the
low 20's out of 30 teams.
Compared to Vancouver???? Jovanovski-Ohlund-Salo....compared
to the Flames top 3 of....who, what order, who are the best 3 of
that bunch anyway?
The top 6 forwards
Gelinas-Conroy-Iginla
Niedermayer-Drury-Kobasew
I see one excellent winger (struggling now, but the very least of the
Flames problems), two checkers terribly miscast on the first line,
a young guy (Kobasew) doing about exactly as could be expected and
also being asked to do too much, Drury who never has been able to
contribute at a high level when not playing with a premier linemate (see
his production total difference when playing with Forsberg, or without
him when Forsberg was out), and a complete joke of a Niedermayer.
Vancouver
Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi
(some mix and match of the Sedin twins, Klatt, Linden and occasionally
others, although the few times I get to see the Canucks it seems like
Bertuzzi plays 30 minutes a game while double and triple-shifting).
Nobody would be in love with the Canucks 2nd line either, but with
3 legitimate first line forwards on the first line, the edge is still
there.
Two premier players and a legitimate scoring center (Vancouver), beats
Iginla playing with two miscast players, and Drury stuck with the waste
of space Niedermayer (Calgary).
Cloutier and Turek is a wash. Take your pick.
Throw in the defense, and the Canucks have a significant edge on paper.
There's a reason the Canucks finished 15 points ahead of the Canucks
last year, and like a few other teams already, are slowly starting to
separate from the Flames this year.
It isn't a fluke. The Flames are 14th out of 15 teams in the
conference as I type this. And there is only 1 team that they are
behind that they MIGHT be better than on paper (Columbus). And there
aren't any that they're better than on the ice, as proven by the
results so far.
The last time I went through this, I got several e-mails saying I
was underestimating the Flames talent and was way off base.
But check out posts in this newsgroup over the last 2 months:
---It seems to me like trading Marc Savard to the Oilers for Ryan
Smyth would be the perfect fit for both teams.
---Gelinas is a great pick up, he scored in the high 20's before and
should easily match that playing with Iginla
---I have a feeling Niedermayer is gonna bounce back this year and
20-25 goals isn't out of the question
---I think the Flames will pick up a minimum of 7 points in this
upcoming 5-game road trip.
And it goes on and on every time the predictions start for an upcoming
game. "I think this is the night we break out of it and beat the
Rangers 7-2". This against a team that had shut them out a week
earlier.
You decide who's closer to the truth.
By the way, 5-game trip starts tomorrow....
at Boston
at Washington
at St. Louis
at Detroit
at Colorado
I'll use the same ending as last time....Good luck to the Flames, and
enjoy Iginla and the good nights.
Englebert Lau
On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Bob Peck wrote:
> I'm not gonna go through the whole thing again, but Gelinas is a
> career checking line forward now being asked to masquerade as a
> first-line left wing.
Gelinas has the skills to score 20 goals and 50 points if used on the
first line. He has similar skills to Dean McAmmond, who played very well
when given the opportunity on a line with Conroy and Iginla.
Gelinas' numbers will be worse if he continues to play on a line with
Drury and Kobasew. I think Drury's an excellent second line centre, but
Kobasew isn't ready to be a top six forward this season.
Of course, if we're gonna miss the playoffs, we main as well develop kids
like Kobasew.
> Craig Conroy I like. If he was the 3rd line checking center
> (which he was for most of his career), he would be the premier
> player in the league in that role, and give the Flames an edge
> over every team.
Yelle should be a solid 3rd line checking centre.
> But up against.... Thornton-Rolston-Brind'amour-Sakic-Forsberg-Modano-
> Fedorov-Yzerman-Comrie-Jokinen-Allison-Koivu-Perreault-Lindros-Nedved-
> Yashin-Lindros-Bonk-Roenick-Lemieux-Weight-Lecavalier-Sundin-
> Morrison-Lang.... he doesn't stack up as a first line center.
Last season, Conroy held his own against all these players. This
season... he's off his game, but so is Iginla. I'm not convinced yet that
last season was a fluke for Conroy / Iginla, but we'll see if their play
improves at all in the next 61 games this season.
> that in all the follow-up posts, nobody bothered to mention
> where the Flames lag badly behind the Canucks, and virtually every
> other team in the league. The 6-man defensive rotation.
The defencemen are okay. Gauthier, Boughner, and Regehr are steady
defensively. Lydman has been solid... and Leopold has a lousy +/-, but
he's gradually developing. The weakest link on the blueline is Buzek, but
as the sixth man, he's okay. Heck, Buzek's +/- is zero on a team where
many players are negative.
To me, you've got four steady blueliners... one developing prospect... and
one average or below average defencemen - but he's the sixth man anyways.
If we're gonna miss the playoffs this season, we main as well start
developing kids like Leopold.
> also being asked to do too much, Drury who never has been able to
> contribute at a high level when not playing with a premier linemate (see
> his production total difference when playing with Forsberg, or without
> him when Forsberg was out), and a complete joke of a Niedermayer.
It's too early to assess Drury, but his current scoring pace will lead him
to 23 goals and 66 points. Those numbers are just fine...
> There's a reason the Canucks finished 15 points ahead of the Canucks
> last year, and like a few other teams already, are slowly starting to
> separate from the Flames this year.
I still think the reason the Canucks finished well ahead of Calgary is
because of the Canucks' scoring depth.
> It isn't a fluke. The Flames are 14th out of 15 teams in the
> conference as I type this. And there is only 1 team that they are
> behind that they MIGHT be better than on paper (Columbus). And there
> aren't any that they're better than on the ice, as proven by the
> results so far.
I'm not happy with the Flames play either, but I'm hoping that we've
already hit rock bottom after a seven game losing streak... and hope that
things will only get better.
- Eng
Buff
Bob Peck wrote:
>
>
> I'm not gonna go through the whole thing again, but Gelinas is a
> career checking line forward now being asked to masquerade as a
> first-line left wing.
>
> Craig Conroy I like. If he was the 3rd line checking center
> (which he was for most of his career), he would be the premier
> player in the league in that role, and give the Flames an edge
> over every team.
>
> If he was the 2nd line center, he'd be "solid", and the Flames
> would have no problem.
I do agree that he isn't really a first line center, but he could be one
of the best 2nd line centers in the league. And he can play on the first
line as he has shown, but he won't consistenly be as good as the likes
of a few of the guys that you listed below.
>
> As the first line center, he's terribly miscast, being asked to
> fill a role he isn't up to, and overmatched against what any
> "good" team would consider to be a true 1st line center. I
> repeat - I like Craig Conroy. It's not his fault.
>
> But up against.... Thornton-Rolston-Brind'amour-Sakic-Forsberg-Modano-
> Fedorov-Yzerman-Comrie-Jokinen-Allison-Koivu-Perreault-Lindros-Nedved-
> Yashin-Lindros-Bonk-Roenick-Lemieux-Weight-Lecavalier-Sundin-
> Morrison-Lang.... he doesn't stack up as a first line center.
Conroy is far better that a few of those guys. Jokinen, Perreault, Lang,
and Rolston are not first line centers and I don't consider them as good
as Conroy. Lang may have better offensive upside, but only when he's
playing with Jagr, or Lemieux. Comrie will be here, but I don't think he
is consistent enough to be listed as a bonafide #1 center. On most teams
maybe but he is not in the same class as Sakic, Forsberg, Roenick,
Weight, Lemieux, and most others here. Nedved has never performed as a
#1 center, he only excels when he is #2 or #1b.
>
> This is where somebody relies..."well that's not exactly fair, you
> just named all the best centers in the league...." And yes,
> I did. And that's the whole point. I just named 25 guys, and
> he's not one of them. AND HE SHOULDN'T BE EXPECTED TO BE.
>
> Here's a partial of the guys he's "about the same as" at this point of
> his (and their) career: Rucchin-Francis-Turgeon-Marchant-Ronning-
> Madden-Messier-Bonk (maybe)-Primeau-Hrdina-Damphousse (doubtful)....
> All good solid veteran players, perfectly cast in a lesser
> responsibility than first line center who's expected to carry a good
> hunk of the offense.
There you go miscasting players again. Marchant is not a 2nd line
center. He is a third liner, albeit a good one. So where do you see
Bonk? You listed him as one of the best centers in the league, then you
list him as a guy that Conroy is supposed to be similar to. I think Bonk
is a #1 center but only on certain teams, like Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton
etc.
I think that most people are over-rating Conroy, but I do think that you
are under-evaluating him. I agree that he isn't a true top line
centerman, but he can play that role. If Calgary were to somehow find a
better fit for the #1 center (and maybe we have that in Drury) Conroy
would be excellent in the #2 role.
>
> Somewhere around here, somebody is going to say "but we were
> talking about comparing the Flames to the Canucks". I notice
> that in all the follow-up posts, nobody bothered to mention
> where the Flames lag badly behind the Canucks, and virtually every
> other team in the league. The 6-man defensive rotation.
>
> Forgetting current injuries and such, the Flames rotation is....
>
> Regehr - Lydman
> Gauthier - Boughner
> Buzek - Leopold
>
No we don't have the top defense core in the league. But our major
weakness is Buzek. Buzek may be decent in the #6 position, but I feel we
need another more experience veteran in his place instead. Not somebody
like Boughner, but somebody who can step in on the PP.
> In that mix are 3 guys that MIGHT form a solid core 2-3 years
> from now, one of whom looks especially good for the FUTURE
> (Leopold), but as a current group of 6, they stink and are not
> NHL caliber. Tell me another team besides Atlanta that would
> switch their group of 6 with the Flames group of 6. If you can
> really name 2 or 3 others, I'd probably argue a few of them, but
> even if you can, it would make the Flames defense corps rank in the
> low 20's out of 30 teams.
Ok here are teams that don't have a defense as good as the Flames.
Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Minnesota, Florida, Columbus, Atlanta,
Anaheim.
And here are teams that are comparable but may have the edge due to more
veterans or a true #1 defenseman.
Boston, Buffalo, St.Louis(only becuase Pronger is out), Washington, Phoenix.
And there are a couple of other teams who have a great top 3 but
horrible bottom 3, like Edmonton, and they are proving that you can get
away with that.
All in all I think you under-estimate the Flames. And I think that maybe
they are under-estimating themselves right now too. We seem to be the
team that always gets into a bad streak where nothing can go right, and
we never recover after that because our confidence gets shot. With that
just said I realized that one thing that the Flames are missing is 1 or
2 veterans (I'm taking 10 years or more) who have tasted success, and
who will play a regular shift. These are the guys who will never give
up, and will lift the rest of the team. Right now we have Berube
(doesn't play regularily and has never tasted playoff success) and
Gelinas, who can't do it all on his own. We are too young.
News
>
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Bob Peck wrote:
>
> > I'm not gonna go through the whole thing again, but Gelinas is a
> > career checking line forward now being asked to masquerade as a
> > first-line left wing.
>
> Gelinas has the skills to score 20 goals and 50 points if used on the
> first line. He has similar skills to Dean McAmmond, who played very well
> when given the opportunity on a line with Conroy and Iginla.
Agreed. Gelinas isn't quite as tough as Deano, but I think what he
lacks in toughness he gains in puck control and the ability to see the play
develop.
> Gelinas' numbers will be worse if he continues to play on a line with
> Drury and Kobasew. I think Drury's an excellent second line centre, but
> Kobasew isn't ready to be a top six forward this season.
>
> Of course, if we're gonna miss the playoffs, we main as well develop kids
> like Kobasew.
It was *really* good to hear someone say this. We don't really have
anyone who could fit the Top Six better than Kobasew, so the team may as
well take a chance with him there. Worst case, we miss the playoffs again
but at least got our rookie the Ice-Time he needs to develop. And playing
with Drury can only be a good thing.
> > Craig Conroy I like. If he was the 3rd line checking center
> > (which he was for most of his career), he would be the premier
> > player in the league in that role, and give the Flames an edge
> > over every team.
>
> Yelle should be a solid 3rd line checking centre.
Should/Is.....take your pick. Personally, I think he has done a pretty
admirable job. I think getting Yelle was *just* as important as getting
Drury, albeit for different reasons of course.
> Last season, Conroy held his own against all these players. This
> season... he's off his game, but so is Iginla. I'm not convinced yet that
> last season was a fluke for Conroy / Iginla, but we'll see if their play
> improves at all in the next 61 games this season.
I don't know how you can have a 75 point "Fluke". Conroy really is the
real deal, but he reminds me of Savard. As a playmaker, he's only as
effective as his wingers. He isn't a guy that can do it all by himself, but
with even just a little help he can be very effective.
> > It isn't a fluke. The Flames are 14th out of 15 teams in the
> > conference as I type this. And there is only 1 team that they are
> > behind that they MIGHT be better than on paper (Columbus). And there
> > aren't any that they're better than on the ice, as proven by the
> > results so far.
>
> I'm not happy with the Flames play either, but I'm hoping that we've
> already hit rock bottom after a seven game losing streak... and hope that
> things will only get better.
For the poster to say that the only team Calgary is better than in the
West is Columbus takes a lot of balls. Calgary hit a very rough stretch,
aggravated by injuries, a suspension and a bizzare run of bad luck. Up
until that streak, the team had been 500, very strong offensively and quite
good defensively. Note that they were also in a playoff spot. The game
consists of Hot Streaks and Cold Streaks. If you think the Canucks are
going to go the whole season without losing 4,5,6 games in a row - You don't
know much about hockey. It's going to happen, it's inevitable.
Buff
News wrote:
>>
>
> I don't know how you can have a 75 point "Fluke". Conroy really is the
> real deal, but he reminds me of Savard. As a playmaker, he's only as
> effective as his wingers. He isn't a guy that can do it all by himself, but
> with even just a little help he can be very effective.
I've seen the fluke happen once. Scott Bjugstad scored 43 goals and 76
points for the Minnesota North Stars in 1985-86. The year before that he
had 15 points in 72 games, the year after that he split time between the
NHL and the AHL. Had he played the entire season in the NHL his stats on
a pro-rated basis would have been 8 goals and 18 assists. And he is the
only fluke in the history of the NHL. Well not the only one, but the
only fluke of that calibre.
I just wanted to share this useless tidbit.
>
Sinfire
the team plays on the Ice. I am sure that Minnesota is a terrible
team if you look at them paperwise, yet, here they are near the of
the conference.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:57:19 -0500, Bob Peck <Bobp...@comcast.net>
wrote:
News
> points for the Minnesota North Stars in 1985-86. The year before that he
> had 15 points in 72 games, the year after that he split time between the
> NHL and the AHL. Had he played the entire season in the NHL his stats on
> a pro-rated basis would have been 8 goals and 18 assists. And he is the
> only fluke in the history of the NHL. Well not the only one, but the
> only fluke of that calibre.
If I may suggest this year's overachiever......Daniel Tjanqvist with the
Pens. Can anyone say Mario Lemiuex?
> I just wanted to share this useless tidbit.
See, who says useless tidbit's aren't useful!! <Grin>
Mike F.
>
> As the first line center, he's terribly miscast, being asked to
> fill a role he isn't up to, and overmatched against what any
> "good" team would consider to be a true 1st line center. I
> repeat - I like Craig Conroy. It's not his fault.
Last year was the first time Conroy had been given a shot as an offensive
center and he performed consistantly all year. His play contributed to
Jarome's big year as much as Iginla contributed to his. He showed he had
offensive capabilities that he never got to showcase as a defensive
specialist in St Louis. Conroy played the whole year as a first line center
and showed he clearly wasn't in over his head.
> But up against.... Thornton-Rolston-Brind'amour-Sakic-Forsberg-Modano-
> Fedorov-Yzerman-Comrie-Jokinen-Allison-Koivu-Perreault-Lindros-Nedved-
> Yashin-Lindros-Bonk-Roenick-Lemieux-Weight-Lecavalier-Sundin-
> Morrison-Lang.... he doesn't stack up as a first line center.
Are you serious with this list? You are putting guys like Jokinen,
Perreault, Comrie, Morrison and Lang with the likes of Fedorov, Sakic,
Forsberg, Thornton and Lemieux? At first I thought you were just looking at
this year which is why a guy like Jokinen is there, but then that wouldn't
explain Yzerman and Allison who haven't played or Lindros who has been
brutal. What exactly are you basing this on other than just your subjective
guesstimation? If your are basing it on performance in the last year + then
Conroy has been as good as many of those guys.
> Regehr - Lydman
> Gauthier - Boughner
> Buzek - Leopold
>
> In that mix are 3 guys that MIGHT form a solid core 2-3 years
> from now, one of whom looks especially good for the FUTURE
> (Leopold), but as a current group of 6, they stink and are not
> NHL caliber. Tell me another team besides Atlanta that would
> switch their group of 6 with the Flames group of 6. If you can
> really name 2 or 3 others, I'd probably argue a few of them, but
> even if you can, it would make the Flames defense corps rank in the
> low 20's out of 30 teams.
>
> Compared to Vancouver???? Jovanovski-Ohlund-Salo....compared
> to the Flames top 3 of....who, what order, who are the best 3 of
> that bunch anyway?
Clearly you don't watch many Flames games or are only concerned with the
offensive play of defenseman if you think the Flames defense stinks and is
vastly inferior to the Canucks defense. Yes, Jovanovski is better than any
of the Flames D right now, but aside from him the Canucks defense corps is
average at best, particularly defensively. Ohlund has never fully recovered
from his eye injury and Salo has never been anything more than a mediocre
defenseman with a good first pass, which is why Vancouver was able to get
him for Schaeffer straight up. For the Flames, Lydman is handling the role
of #1 defenseman extremely well getting loads of icetime, Regehr has more
than bounced back from last year and is a force in the defensive zone, and
Leopold is already showing his offensive creativity at the NHL level. Right
now, other than Jovo there are no Vancouver d-men I would trade straight up
for Regehr, Lydman or Leopold. Add to that Gauthier and Boughner who are
both big physical presences in the defensive zone. If you want to know how
well the Flames defense is playing, look at their play in the last 10
games -- 2.2 GA per game (nearly identical to the Canucks) despite playing
behind an offense that can't generate anything.
> The top 6 forwards
> Gelinas-Conroy-Iginla
> Niedermayer-Drury-Kobasew
>
> I see one excellent winger (struggling now, but the very least of the
> Flames problems), two checkers terribly miscast on the first line,
> a young guy (Kobasew) doing about exactly as could be expected and
> also being asked to do too much, Drury who never has been able to
> contribute at a high level when not playing with a premier linemate (see
> his production total difference when playing with Forsberg, or without
> him when Forsberg was out), and a complete joke of a Niedermayer.
Has Morrison ever been able to contribute without premier linemates? He
didn't do much when Vancouver broke up the first line and had him centering
the second, and yet you have him amongst the top centers in the league.
Again, Conroy showed last year the he's not terribly miscast playing
alongside Iginla, and Gelinas is playing as a second line winger which is
entirely appropriate for him given that he already has 7 goals this year.
> Vancouver
> Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi
> (some mix and match of the Sedin twins, Klatt, Linden and occasionally
> others, although the few times I get to see the Canucks it seems like
> Bertuzzi plays 30 minutes a game while double and triple-shifting).
>
> Nobody would be in love with the Canucks 2nd line either, but with
> 3 legitimate first line forwards on the first line, the edge is still
> there.
>
> Two premier players and a legitimate scoring center (Vancouver), beats
> Iginla playing with two miscast players, and Drury stuck with the waste
> of space Niedermayer (Calgary).
>
> Cloutier and Turek is a wash. Take your pick.
>
> Throw in the defense, and the Canucks have a significant edge on paper.
Yes, the edge is there but it is by no means overwhelming, particularly if
you give more than a cursory look at the second lines and include the third
and fourth lines. The defense is much closer on paper and the ice than you
give the Flames credit for, with the Canucks having better offense from the
defense, but Calgary being better in the defensive end.
> There's a reason the Canucks finished 15 points ahead of the Canucks
> last year, and like a few other teams already, are slowly starting to
> separate from the Flames this year.
I'll say again what I've said before, the big difference between Calgary and
Vancouver is coaching. Vancouver has an elite coach who has been able to put
in place systems that have allowed his players to thrive. The Flames staff
is wasting the talent they have been given and I believe, have lost the
respect of the players. Switch coaches and the performance on the ice would
be vastly different.
Mike.
NoRm
They have 1/3 of a good first line,
They have 2/3 of a good second line,
They have 1/3 of a good third line,
They have 6/5 of a good fouth line.
The Flames need to overachieve just to get ties!
On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:57:19 -0500, Bob Peck <Bobp...@comcast.net>
wrote:
*
*
*
*I'm not gonna go through the whole thing again, but Gelinas is a
*career checking line forward now being asked to masquerade as a
*first-line left wing.
*
*Craig Conroy I like. If he was the 3rd line checking center
*(which he was for most of his career), he would be the premier
*player in the league in that role, and give the Flames an edge
*over every team.
*
*If he was the 2nd line center, he'd be "solid", and the Flames
*would have no problem.
*
*As the first line center, he's terribly miscast, being asked to
*fill a role he isn't up to, and overmatched against what any
*"good" team would consider to be a true 1st line center. I
*repeat - I like Craig Conroy. It's not his fault.
*
*But up against.... Thornton-Rolston-Brind'amour-Sakic-Forsberg-Modano-
*Fedorov-Yzerman-Comrie-Jokinen-Allison-Koivu-Perreault-Lindros-Nedved-
*Yashin-Lindros-Bonk-Roenick-Lemieux-Weight-Lecavalier-Sundin-
*Morrison-Lang.... he doesn't stack up as a first line center.
*
*This is where somebody relies..."well that's not exactly fair, you
*just named all the best centers in the league...." And yes,
*I did. And that's the whole point. I just named 25 guys, and
*he's not one of them. AND HE SHOULDN'T BE EXPECTED TO BE.
*
*Here's a partial of the guys he's "about the same as" at this point of
*his (and their) career: Rucchin-Francis-Turgeon-Marchant-Ronning-
*Madden-Messier-Bonk (maybe)-Primeau-Hrdina-Damphousse (doubtful)....
*All good solid veteran players, perfectly cast in a lesser
*responsibility than first line center who's expected to carry a good
*hunk of the offense.
*
*Somewhere around here, somebody is going to say "but we were
*talking about comparing the Flames to the Canucks". I notice
*that in all the follow-up posts, nobody bothered to mention
*where the Flames lag badly behind the Canucks, and virtually every
*other team in the league. The 6-man defensive rotation.
*
*Forgetting current injuries and such, the Flames rotation is....
*
*Regehr - Lydman
*Gauthier - Boughner
*Buzek - Leopold
*
*In that mix are 3 guys that MIGHT form a solid core 2-3 years
*from now, one of whom looks especially good for the FUTURE
*(Leopold), but as a current group of 6, they stink and are not
*NHL caliber. Tell me another team besides Atlanta that would
*switch their group of 6 with the Flames group of 6. If you can
*really name 2 or 3 others, I'd probably argue a few of them, but
*even if you can, it would make the Flames defense corps rank in the
*low 20's out of 30 teams.
*
*Compared to Vancouver???? Jovanovski-Ohlund-Salo....compared
*to the Flames top 3 of....who, what order, who are the best 3 of
*that bunch anyway?
*
*The top 6 forwards
*Gelinas-Conroy-Iginla
*Niedermayer-Drury-Kobasew
*
*I see one excellent winger (struggling now, but the very least of the
*Flames problems), two checkers terribly miscast on the first line,
*a young guy (Kobasew) doing about exactly as could be expected and
*also being asked to do too much, Drury who never has been able to
*contribute at a high level when not playing with a premier linemate
(see
*his production total difference when playing with Forsberg, or without
*him when Forsberg was out), and a complete joke of a Niedermayer.
*
*Vancouver
*Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi
*(some mix and match of the Sedin twins, Klatt, Linden and occasionally
*others, although the few times I get to see the Canucks it seems like
*Bertuzzi plays 30 minutes a game while double and triple-shifting).
*
*Nobody would be in love with the Canucks 2nd line either, but with
*3 legitimate first line forwards on the first line, the edge is still
*there.
*
*Two premier players and a legitimate scoring center (Vancouver), beats
*Iginla playing with two miscast players, and Drury stuck with the waste
*of space Niedermayer (Calgary).
*
*Cloutier and Turek is a wash. Take your pick.
*
*Throw in the defense, and the Canucks have a significant edge on paper.
*
*There's a reason the Canucks finished 15 points ahead of the Canucks
*last year, and like a few other teams already, are slowly starting to
*separate from the Flames this year.
*
*It isn't a fluke. The Flames are 14th out of 15 teams in the
*conference as I type this. And there is only 1 team that they are
*behind that they MIGHT be better than on paper (Columbus). And there
*aren't any that they're better than on the ice, as proven by the
*results so far.
*
*The last time I went through this, I got several e-mails saying I
*was underestimating the Flames talent and was way off base.
*
*But check out posts in this newsgroup over the last 2 months:
*
*---It seems to me like trading Marc Savard to the Oilers for Ryan
* Smyth would be the perfect fit for both teams.
*---Gelinas is a great pick up, he scored in the high 20's before and
* should easily match that playing with Iginla
*---I have a feeling Niedermayer is gonna bounce back this year and
* 20-25 goals isn't out of the question
*---I think the Flames will pick up a minimum of 7 points in this
* upcoming 5-game road trip.
*
*And it goes on and on every time the predictions start for an upcoming
*game. "I think this is the night we break out of it and beat the
*Rangers 7-2". This against a team that had shut them out a week
*earlier.
*
*You decide who's closer to the truth.
*
*By the way, 5-game trip starts tomorrow....
*at Boston
*at Washington
*at St. Louis
*at Detroit
*at Colorado
*
*I'll use the same ending as last time....Good luck to the Flames, and
*enjoy Iginla and the good nights.
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*Lemieux wrote:
*>
*> Fine then.
*> By how much is Vancouver better?
*> In what ways are the Canucks better?
*> How do you compare these two teams point by point?
*> How do you compare their players and managements?
*>
*> I am very interested to know.
*>
*> "Bob Peck"
*>
*> > mrchipsgonebad wrote:
*> > > I would say that with the addition of Drury, Yelle and Gelinas
the Flames
*> > > stack up pretty well to Vancouver.
*>
*> > I'll never understand how this kind of fallacy gets repeated over
and
*> > over in here, and almost nobody ever questions it.
*> >
*> > But mostly I'm so curious about what it is that makes Calgary fans
so
*> > unrealistically optimistic It seems like a really positive trait,
but I
*> > just don't get where it comes from.
Englebert Lau
On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, NoRm wrote:
> That's the Flames problem.
>
> They have 1/3 of a good first line,
> They have 2/3 of a good second line,
> They have 1/3 of a good third line,
There's not enough scoring, obviously... but let's see here:
Iginla is a capable first line player (despite his struggles this season).
Gelinas, Conroy, and Drury are second line players. Conroy proved last
season that he can play on the top line, but he (and Iginla) will need to
pick up their play in 2002-03. Drury has shown that he can be a first
line player, too.
To complete the top two lines, we need a couple more 20 goal scorers...
but seeing that Button isn't making any trades, we main as well continue
developing Kobasew... and bring up the likes of Oleg Saprykin and see if
we can develop another prospect, too.
The Wright-Yelle-Clark line is a decent third line...
- Eng