Comparing Gretzky with Bobby Hull
Steve Ranta
It's obvious than Orr was a much greater influence on hockey, and a much
greater player than Gretzky.
But to allow Gretzky fans a bit more of a chance, can they prove that
Gretzky was a greater player than Bobby Hull?
Personally, I doubt it, but at least it might lead to a less one-sided
argument than the one about Orr and Gretzky.
--
Steve Ranta
Steve Ranta
In article <sranta-0308...@van-pm-0418.direct.ca>,
sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
. . .
> But to allow Gretzky fans a bit more of a chance, can they prove that
> Gretzky was a greater player than Bobby Hull?
> . . .
Here's something to get started with.
Bobby Hull was named to the first All-Star team 10 times. Gretzky only 8.
--
Steve Ranta
Sameer Sehdev
Steve Ranta wrote:
>
> It's obvious than Orr was a much greater influence on hockey, and a much
> greater player than Gretzky.
>
> Gretzky was a greater player than Bobby Hull?
>
> argument than the one about Orr and Gretzky.
>
> --
> Steve Ranta
No no.. i have a better one for you.. can YOU tell me
how Orr is better than Gretzky... these are some of
the ridiculous arguements posted by some of your
confused followers:
Orr better: revolutionized the game by rushing
as a defenceman
Explanation: Do you even know who was the first
player in hockey to get into a fight?
Surely you must because this person
revolutionized the only game in which
fighing does NOT land an automatic
suspension. This person did
revolutionize the game.. but no one
knows him... because.. this does NOT
make him the greatest hockey player in
any way. Because you revolutionize
the game ... it does NOT guarantee
that you are the greatest.. this point
in itself should be enough but
obviously it has not sunk in.
Orr better #2: Created bigger salaries for players.
Explanation: So what? So he is the greatest for
this? He is better than Gretzky at
playing hockey because he created
higher salaries for players? Gretzky
sets 61 NHL records... 9 MVPs, 10
scoring titles, 4 times a 200 pt getter,
and Orr is better because he set
the pace for higher salaries?
Another crazy thing you just said was that Orr was
a greater influence on the sport than Gretzky. Compare
the number of Orr #4 jerseys to the number of
Gretzky #99 jerseys that fans wear. Compare the number
of people that can identify who #99 is... whether
they watch hockey or not.. almost anyone with half
a sports brain knows that #99 belongs to Gretzky... of
the sport of HOCKEy... this is a given.
Tell me who has his name more often in the record books
than Gretzky. Tell me who the ambassador to the sport
is... Tell me Dan Kelly called the greatest player in
the world... Tell me who Glenn Heally said was the
greatest player in the world when asked on a recent
radio programme when he was asked to compare Lemieux,
Gretzky, Howe.. etc...
You ask any hockey player who is the best player in the
world.. and they will tell you this: Gretzky... of all
time... Lemieux... of today. Contrary to what you
may think... hockey players in the NHL.. know more than
you do about who the best hockey players really are.
Here is a list of JUST the prominant people that *I*
have specifically heard or read calling Gretzky the
greatest of all time:
Mario Lemieux, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Doug Gilmour,
Mark Messier, Paul Kariya, Brett Hull, Shayne Corson,
Grant Fuhr, Mike Keenan, Glen Sather, Kevin Stevens.
These are JUST the players that i have heard.
Pretty prominant if you ask me.. but you are right..
this does not prove much more than saying that the
best in the would consider Gretzky to be their King.
Liam Maguire
In article <sranta-0308...@van-pm-0513.direct.ca>,
sra...@macwest.org says...
>> Gretzky was a greater player than Bobby Hull?
>
>Here's something to get started with.
>
>Bobby Hull was named to the first All-Star team 10 times. Gretzky only
8.
>
Ah yes, the old Orr/Gretzky debate with Hull thrown in for good measure.
In my first book I have a chapter called "The Best of The Best". What it
is basically is in my opinion who were the most dominant players in their
respective era's in NHL history. Starting with 1917/18 up until the book
was published in 1994 I came up with ten names. Joe Malone, Howie Morenz,
Eddie Shore, Rocket Richard, Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Guy
Lafleur, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux.
You could make arguments for every one of them at any one time being
the best in NHL history. Granted in some cases they might not be as strong
as others but somebody who really knew there stuff could make a case for
every one of those players.
If you're a GM and you have first pick of any one of those guys in
their prime you don't hurt your team. So, who decides? I have found in my
experience travelling or doing my trivia shows and talking to hockey fans
that the older the person the more likely they think that Gordie Howe is
number one. Bobby Orr still garners a lot of votes but the overwhelming
majority, in my experience pick number 99 as thee man. And I have to
agree.
Hull was phenomeonal, to stay with this thread for a moment. But as
good as he was, he only played on one Cup winner. He couldn't do it all.
He might have been on those ten all star teams but on a very talented
Chicago team he couldn't pull the boys together and win the big one after
1961 and as he told me in an interview once, he was bitterly upset about
the Esposito trade in May of 67.
The Orr/Gretzky debate is the real discussion and as much as I love
the guy and respect him and his family(I worked for his brother Doug at
Seneca College in Toronto) in my opinion he falls a little short in any
comparisons with Wayne.
Both dominated the game unlike any other. Both took their positions
to new levels and maybe if Bobby had stayed healthy, maybe, I would feel
differently but when you've got a guy who seventeen years after he breaks
into the league, he's still racking up 100 point seasons, that is
unbelievable. When you have a guy who has led every single tournament he
has ever played in in scoring from the age of six to present day,
including all Canada Cups and the World Juniors that is unbelievable.
You could maybe take a piece out of the argument for Wayne if he
wasn't on any winners, but six times he leads the playoffs in scoring,
four Cups, that is unbelievable. I mean the guy plays 18 playoff games in
1985 and gets 47 points. 47 points!!! That's a season for some guys.
I think really it boils down to this very common denominator.
Unfortunately for all of us has hockey fans, we were deprived of Bobby
after nine short seasons. One of the key factors in being considered the
greatest has to be longevity. Orr did not have it, albeit for injuries but
all the same it's a fact.
Secondly, after Boston's first win with Bobby in 1970 they should have
won three or four more Cups. They did not. The Oilers were shutdown in the
finals of 83 but after their first win Wayne was on three more in four
years and he was the main guy. Three times in his prime, 1971, 1973 and
1975, Orr and the Bruins were eliminated in the first round. Inexcuseable
if you're the best of all time.
Having said all of this I'd take the guy in a second, obviously. He
was incredible no question. But, if I'm the GM and they are all in their
prime, it's number 99 for me.
Liam Maguire
****************************************************
Check out my Hockey Trivia Page at this URL :
http://infoweb.magi.com/~liam/hockey.html
****************************************************
Daniel Chapman
Bobby Hull on 1st all-star 10 times and Gretzky on it 8 Times means that
GRETZKY was playing against better competetion... Duh! :)
Score 1 for the Gretzky team!
Steve Ranta
In article <4u19rm$n...@news.istar.ca>, li...@magi.com (Liam Maguire) wrote:
. . .
> If you're a GM and you have first pick of any one of those guys in
> their prime you don't hurt your team.. . .
I would think Orr would help the most. Look at his plus/minus record, and
the amount of time he played each game.
. . .
> Hull was phenomeonal, to stay with this thread for a moment. But as
> good as he was, he only played on one Cup winner. He couldn't do it all.
> He might have been on those ten all star teams but on a very talented
> Chicago team he couldn't pull the boys together and win the big one after
> 1961. . .
The Leafs and Habs were very good teams during that period. I don't think
you could prove that Chicago had more talent.
Gretzky certainly showed he couldn't pull the boys together in Los Angeles.
. . . Both took their positions
> to new levels and maybe if Bobby had stayed healthy, maybe, I would feel
> differently. . .
One of the amazing things about Orr is that he had serious knee trouble
from the time he came into the league, and still had several phenomenal
seasons before he finally couldn't overcome his disability.
> . . . You could maybe take a piece out of the argument for Wayne if he
> wasn't on any winners, but six times he leads the playoffs in scoring,
> four Cups, that is unbelievable. I mean the guy plays 18 playoff games in
> 1985 and gets 47 points. 47 points!!! That's a season for some guys.
So now you bring the Rocket into the picture.
. . . One of the key factors in being considered the
> greatest has to be longevity. Orr did not have it, albeit for injuries but
> all the same it's a fact.
If Gretzky was smashed around during his hockey career like Orr was, I
doubt he would have even made it through three seasons in the NHL.
> . . . Secondly, after Boston's first win with Bobby in 1970 they should have
> won three or four more Cups. They did not. The Oilers were shutdown in the
> finals of 83 but after their first win Wayne was on three more in four
> years and he was the main guy. Three times in his prime, 1971, 1973 and
> 1975, Orr and the Bruins were eliminated in the first round. Inexcuseable
> if you're the best of all time.
Except for Orr, the Bruins were mostly plumbers, including Esposito.
Gretzky was surrounded with outstanding talent.
> . . . Having said all of this I'd take the guy in a second, obviously. He
> was incredible no question. But, if I'm the GM and they are all in their
> prime, it's number 99 for me.
You could build a great team around Orr's abilities.
You could build a league around Bobby Hull.
Gretzky failed to be a winner in Los Angeles despite the talented help he
was provided with.
--
Steve Ranta
Steve Ranta
In article <3203FD...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
<sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
. . .
> Orr better #2: Created bigger salaries for players.
>
> Explanation: So what? So he is the greatest for
> this? . . .
Bobby Hull revolutionised player salaries, because as the best-known
player in the NHL, he signed with the new World Hockey Association,
creating competition for the NHL.
> Another crazy thing you just said was that Orr was
> a greater influence on the sport than Gretzky. Compare
> the number of Orr #4 jerseys to the number of
> Gretzky #99 jerseys that fans wear. Compare the number
> of people that can identify who #99 is... whether
> they watch hockey or not.. almost anyone with half
> a sports brain knows that #99 belongs to Gretzky... of
> the sport of HOCKEy... this is a given.
Bobby Hull established the WHA, which led to the further expansion of the
NHL. You could say that Hull was responsible for the very existence of
many current NHL teams.
. . .
You ask any hockey player who is the best player in the
> world.. and they will tell you this: Gretzky... of all
> time... Lemieux... of today. Contrary to what you
> may think... hockey players in the NHL.. know more than
> you do about who the best hockey players really are.
>
> Here is a list of JUST the prominant people that *I*
> have specifically heard or read calling Gretzky the
> greatest of all time:
>
> Mario Lemieux, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Doug Gilmour,
> Mark Messier, Paul Kariya, Brett Hull, Shayne Corson,
> Grant Fuhr, Mike Keenan, Glen Sather, Kevin Stevens.
>
> These are JUST the players that i have heard. . .
That certainly doesn't prove that 'any hockey player' would tell you
Gretzky was the best.
There is a natural tendency for players to claim their rival is the
greatest of all time, so they can have an excuse for not being the
dominant player of their own time, and enhance their own self-image.
--
Steve Ranta
Sameer Sehdev
Steve Ranta wrote:
> Gretzky certainly showed he couldn't pull the boys together in Los Angeles.
Was Hull's Chicago team not better than Gretzky's
Los Angeles team? What has Gretzky EVER had in LA
that was worth anything.. lets see:
Blake, Tocchet, Sandstrom, Hrudy, Zhitnik, Coffey.
THAT's IT! Do not even THINK about counting Robitaille
as he is a total flop in NYR without a real centre (and
no he is not on Messier's line). Secondly.. not all
of those players were playing together at the same
time and injuries have plagued Blake and Tocchet while
they were/are in LA. Remember that in a *26* teama
league Gretzky was able to take those sorry asses
in LA to the cup final against Montreal... and LED
playoff scoring.
>
> One of the amazing things about Orr is that he had serious knee trouble
> from the time he came into the league, and still had several phenomenal
> seasons before he finally couldn't overcome his disability.
There have been other players who have done the same
with injuries.. the point is.. this does NOT make them
the greatest things in the world. Mario Lemieux has
put up with equivalent pains and agonies of injury and
so has Cam Neely but these guys are not considered the
greatest players in the game.... Gretzky is.
>
> If Gretzky was smashed around during his hockey career like Orr was, I
> doubt he would have even made it through three seasons in the NHL.
Unbelievable. What about Ray Bourque? What about
Paul Coffey. What about Chris Chelios? What about
Brian Leetch. All of these players are major offensive
threats. And ALL take a beating because of it. BUT
ALL are still in the league. It was just unfortunate
that Orr was injured.. it is not because he was so
brave that he took a beating for his team just so they
could win... one could argue that he was a wimp because
he could not take what EVERY offensive defenceman in
the league puts up with.
>
> Except for Orr, the Bruins were mostly plumbers, including Esposito.
> Gretzky was surrounded with outstanding talent.
Plumbers such as Esposito took that Boston team to
new heights... they were 1,2,3,4 in scoring one year
man.. are you watching the same Bruins as me? Those
same plumbers represented Team Canada for the FIRST
time in the most dramatic win (even moreso than
Lemieux in 1987) ever.
True that Gretzky had the likes of Coffey, Kurri,
Messier and Anderson... but let's face it.. Orr had
his talent around him too.. and they did not make it
out of the first round some major occasions.
>
> You could build a great team around Orr's abilities.
>
Edmonton: Gretzky
Pittsburgh: Lemieux
Philadelphia: Lindros
Anaheim: Kariya
Boston: Bourque
Building a team around one player does not necessarily
make that player the GREATEST... Look above.. all of
those teams are great... but all of those players are
NOT the greatest.
> You could build a league around Bobby Hull.
It has already been done with Gretzky.
>
> Gretzky failed to be a winner in Los Angeles despite the talented help he
> was provided with.
Pretty close in 93 if you ask me.. led playoffs in
scoring and had WHAT talent? See above... and
reply to me about exactly what talent LA had?
Sameer Sehdev
Steve Ranta wrote:
>
> In article <3203FD...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
> <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> . . .
> > Orr better #2: Created bigger salaries for players.
> >
> > Explanation: So what? So he is the greatest for
> > this? . . .
>
> Bobby Hull revolutionised player salaries, because as the best-known
> player in the NHL, he signed with the new World Hockey Association,
> creating competition for the NHL.
HAhahaha... Some of you Orr people say that Orr was
the one who revolutionized big contracts.. and then
still others say taht Hull was the one. Like I said
before.. whoEVER did it.. it is immaterial.. it does
NOT make a difference. You are not the greatest hockey
PLAYER if you revolutionize player salaries... you are
the greatest hockey diplomat in this case.
>
> > Another crazy thing you just said was that Orr was
> > a greater influence on the sport than Gretzky. Compare
> > the number of Orr #4 jerseys to the number of
> > Gretzky #99 jerseys that fans wear. Compare the number
> > of people that can identify who #99 is... whether
> > they watch hockey or not.. almost anyone with half
> > a sports brain knows that #99 belongs to Gretzky... of
> > the sport of HOCKEy... this is a given.
>
> Bobby Hull established the WHA, which led to the further expansion of the
> NHL. You could say that Hull was responsible for the very existence of
> many current NHL teams.
The argument was: Orr was more influential than
Gretzky. Stop bringing Hull into this argument as
I am not even addressing him. You said that Orr was
more influential than Gretzky.. I challenged you to tell
me how many more 99s do you see than 4s... i asked
you to tell me how many people know Gretzky's 99 than
Orr's 4. Another thing.. in North America, Jordan is
the most popular sports icon... World wide.. no one
is more popular than Athelete of the Decade: Wayne
Gretzky. And everyone knows that 99 belongs to him
and to the sport of hockey. Gretzky has had the
greatest influence on hockey.
> . . .
> You ask any hockey player who is the best player in the
> > world.. and they will tell you this: Gretzky... of all
> > time... Lemieux... of today. Contrary to what you
> > may think... hockey players in the NHL.. know more than
> > you do about who the best hockey players really are.
> >
> > Here is a list of JUST the prominant people that *I*
> > have specifically heard or read calling Gretzky the
> > greatest of all time:
> >
> > Mario Lemieux, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Doug Gilmour,
> > Mark Messier, Paul Kariya, Brett Hull, Shayne Corson,
> > Grant Fuhr, Mike Keenan, Glen Sather, Kevin Stevens.
> >
> > These are JUST the players that i have heard. . .
>
> That certainly doesn't prove that 'any hockey player' would tell you
> Gretzky was the best.
Obviously not.. but the BEST often do.
>
> There is a natural tendency for players to claim their rival is the
> greatest of all time, so they can have an excuse for not being the
> dominant player of their own time, and enhance their own self-image.
Mario Lemieux HATES WAyne Gretzky. Go get his
biography. Mario Lemeiux said that it was unfair
that he be compared to Gretzky because Wayne was
the greatest... TODAY.. he beleives otherwise. Is it
any surprise that he is contemplating retirement after
he was unable to near the 200 pt mark? He said that
one day he would eclipse Gretzky's marks.. he has yet
to do that.. but if anyone can.. it is Lemieux. Now
again i tell you... that he is not trying to enhanve
his self image by saying Gretzky is the best.
Ans since when is Gretzky supposed to be Messier's
rival? And how does Coffey become Gretzk's rival? How
does Kariya become Gretzky's rival? I can understand
Gilmour totally.. but NOT the otehr guys.
Steve Ranta
In article <320516...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
<sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
. . . Stop bringing Hull into this argument as
> I am not even addressing him. . .
I think you're in the wrong thread.
--
Steve Ranta
Steve Ranta
In article <4u2pdo$e...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>, dcha...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
(Daniel Chapman) wrote:
> Bobby Hull on 1st all-star 10 times and Gretzky on it 8 Times means that
> GRETZKY was playing against better competetion... Duh! :)
Hull's rival left wingers Dickie Moore and Frank Mahovlich weren't bad players.
--
Steve Ranta
Catseye
Sameer Sehdev wrote:
> Pretty close in 93 if you ask me.. led playoffs in
> scoring and had WHAT talent? See above... and
> reply to me about exactly what talent LA had?
But they did lose to a team who had even LESS talent then themselves.
Montreal rode Roy to that cup big time. I would figure that, LA with
Gretzky was a more talented team than Montreal with Roy that year. Yet,
Gretzky was unable to elevate his team to that final plateau.
Does this mean Roy is the greatest? :)
Catseye
Michael F. Hynes
dcha...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Daniel Chapman) wrote:
>Bobby Hull on 1st all-star 10 times and Gretzky on it 8 Times means that
>GRETZKY was playing against better competetion... Duh! :)
>
>
a doubt the best left winger of his era. I don't think many
would argue with that and I am sure he would get many votes
for best left winger of all time. But then what other
great left wingers are there ??? Steve Shutt ??? (I believe he
holds the record for most goals by a left winger ).
Certainly in the recent past (say last twenty years) 70 % of the top forwards have been centres, 25 % right wingers
But Hull did play against tougher opposition than Gretzky as most
of his career was in the six team era.
As far as all star nominations go, Gretzky had to face
Dionne and Trottier at the beginning of his career, then
people like Lemieux, Yzerman, Gilmour, Fedorov and Lindros
later on.
Steve Ranta
In article <320513...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
<sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Steve Ranta wrote:
>
> > Gretzky certainly showed he couldn't pull the boys together in Los Angeles.
>
>
> Was Hull's Chicago team not better than Gretzky's
> Los Angeles team? . . .
For its time, it was a good team, largely because it had Hull. But it had
very tough competition in the Habs and the Leafs. The competition faced
by Gretzky's team in Los Angeles, at least in their half of the league,
was not of the same consistently high calibre.
. . .
> > You could build a league around Bobby Hull.
>
> It has already been done with Gretzky.
>
When?
--
Steve Ranta
Rich O'Brien
In article <320516...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
<sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Steve Ranta wrote:
> >
> > In article <3203FD...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
> > <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> >
> > . . .
> > > Orr better #2: Created bigger salaries for players.
> > >
> > > Explanation: So what? So he is the greatest for
> > > this? . . .
> >
> > Bobby Hull revolutionised player salaries, because as the best-known
> > player in the NHL, he signed with the new World Hockey Association,
> > creating competition for the NHL.
>
>
> HAhahaha... Some of you Orr people say that Orr was
> the one who revolutionized big contracts.. and then
> still others say taht Hull was the one. Like I said
> before.. whoEVER did it.. it is immaterial.. it does
> NOT make a difference. You are not the greatest hockey
> PLAYER if you revolutionize player salaries... you are
> the greatest hockey diplomat in this case.
>
You continually point this out as a flaw of our argument... but it was
just a moot point really, not part of the real argument. Besides how did
Greztky change the way hockey is PLAYED (and don't give me the behind the
net PP... it isn't used/imitated nearly as much as Orr's d-rushes)? Orr
was tougher, grittier, played better D, and revolutionized defensive
play. He had to take care of things at BOTH ends, not like Gretzky's fair
reckless abandon. He did all of his things w/out the help of other
superstars around him, ie the Oiler dynasty that helped Gretzky. Perhaps
we should create criteria for how someone should be decided as the
greatest PLAYER of all time. I think it should be who you would want on
your team for a stanley cup game 7 final. I'd take Orr over Gretzky 8
days a week.
> > > Another crazy thing you just said was that Orr was
> > > a greater influence on the sport than Gretzky. Compare
> > > the number of Orr #4 jerseys to the number of
> > > Gretzky #99 jerseys that fans wear. Compare the number
> > > of people that can identify who #99 is... whether
> > > they watch hockey or not.. almost anyone with half
> > > a sports brain knows that #99 belongs to Gretzky... of
> > > the sport of HOCKEy... this is a given.
> >
> > Bobby Hull established the WHA, which led to the further expansion of the
> > NHL. You could say that Hull was responsible for the very existence of
> > many current NHL teams.
What does the number of Jerseys have to do with being great?
> The argument was: Orr was more influential than
> Gretzky. Stop bringing Hull into this argument as
> I am not even addressing him.
What? Too tough to handle?
>You said that Orr was more influential than Gretzky.. I challenged you to tell
> me how many more 99s do you see than 4s... i asked
> you to tell me how many people know Gretzky's 99 than
> Orr's 4. Another thing.. in North America, Jordan is
> the most popular sports icon... World wide.. no one
> is more popular than Athelete of the Decade: Wayne
> Gretzky. And everyone knows that 99 belongs to him
> and to the sport of hockey. Gretzky has had the
> greatest influence on hockey.
Popular has nothing to do with being great. It just shows public
approval. Gretzky also has played in a time of enormous media coverage...
Orr had no other coparable source of media or advertisement. Again, what
does this have to do with what happens on the ice?
>
> Mario Lemieux HATES WAyne Gretzky. Go get his
> biography. Mario Lemeiux said that it was unfair
> that he be compared to Gretzky because Wayne was
> the greatest... TODAY.. he beleives otherwise. Is it
> any surprise that he is contemplating retirement after
> he was unable to near the 200 pt mark?
You absolutely have your head up your ass. I'd like to see you play in
ONE NHL hockey game after having Hodgkin's disease, Lemieux played in 70
regular season games tallying INCREDIBLE points for a man that just had
Hodgkin's disease. Saying that he is retiring because he didn't reach 200
points is absolutely stupid. It's a health issue moron.
Season Team League GP G A TP PIM +/- PP SH GW GT Shots Pct
Regular Season
1995-96 PITT NHL 70 69 92 161 54 10 31 8 8 0 338 20.41
On pace for about 189 points. Halfway through the season he was on pace
for 202 I believe. It's apparent his endurance because of his health hurt
him.
Playoffs
1995-96 PITT NHL 18 11 16 27 33 3 3 1 2 0 78 14.10
On pace for 123 points... in PLAYOFF hockey!
Total
1995-96 PITT NHL 88 80 108 188 -----------------------------------
He almost hit 200 points in a little over 82 games... 18 of them being
playoff hockey. These are totals that no one could be ashamed of, esp.
after what Lemieux has gone through. This has nothin to do with Orr vs.
Gretzky, but it just shows how unknowledgeable you really are.
Think before you post,
Rich O'Brien
jam...@mail.idt.net
=======================================================
Standing on a hill in a mountain of dreams
Telling myself it's not as hard... as hard as it seems.
=======================================================
Y. Tremblay
In article <4u2pdo$e...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>,
Daniel Chapman <dcha...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>Bobby Hull on 1st all-star 10 times and Gretzky on it 8 Times means that
>GRETZKY was playing against better competetion... Duh! :)
>
>Score 1 for the Gretzky team!
>
Love it... Where does Gretzky play ? Where has he played in his
carrer ? Could you please stay were your discussion is relevant.
Constant crossposting is a pain.
The team specific newsgroups have been created cause peoples had
enough of trying to scan through 500 articles about other teams to
find one that interest them. So please, could you stop that. General
discussion should be in rec.sport.hockey. There is no reason to
crosspost to more than 2-3 newsgroups (three way trade being a
example) most should be only in 1 newsgroups.
To try to help a bit, other peoples could compensate for those who
refuse to consider it by editing the newsgroups line or the follow-up
one.
Yannick
--
Y. Tremblay
Judy Chew
All this talk about who is the greatest -- Orr, Gretzky, Hull or whoever
else -- can't be measured realistically if you don't take into account the
different time periods in which they played. Sure, Gretzky is better known
because hockey was marketed better in the 80s and 90s than it was in Orr's
heydey (the 70s) and Hull's (the 60s).
To me the best comparison of who the greatest hockey player is this; if 5
Bobby Orr's lined up against 5 Wayne Gretzky's,the Orrs would demolish the
Gretzkys. Bobby Orr was the greatest all-around skilled hockey player in
the history of the NHL. He would have been able to play any position,
unlike Gretzky or any of the others. He was the total package. Case
closed.
Norman D. Liles
Rich O'Brien (jam...@mail.idt.net) wrote:
: In article <320516...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
: <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
: > Steve Ranta wrote:
: > >
: > > In article <3203FD...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
: > > <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
: > >
: > > . . .
: > > > Orr better #2: Created bigger salaries for players.
: > > >
One thing we need to remember is that Orr's agent when he played was
Allan Eagleson. Remember where he is today. When Orr was playing his
number "4" was every bit as well known as Wayne's "99". In the early
70's he was the biggest star in the game especially after his cup winning
goal in 1970. He especially gained attention because of his offensive
style of defense (like Coffey) and his individual skills. He could
do things that no one else could. Orr was known for his skills on the
ice and his grace off of it. For instance when he first went to
Chicago he would not accept payment until he knew he could play after
his knee was injured. Would Wayne do that? Wayne is too worried about
being the highest paid player (or used to be). Sure Wayne changed the
game. He made it fun to watch again with the Oilers and their free
wheeling offensive game. Orr changed it too. He was among the first
rushing defensemen. He was the first defensman to score 100 points.
That was in a 12 team league and when he started it was a 6 team league.
In those days 20 goals was respected as a good year and 100 points was
superstardom. We were shocked when Espo got 152 points even though
2/3 of his goals were of garbage variety. He still got 76 assists.
To be great you have to be around great players. Orr was, Gretzky was.
Who was better? Who knows, they played in different eras. Would Babe
Ruth hit 714 homeruns today? They would pitch around him. No way. Would
Wayne score 803+ goals in the 60's and 70's. Doubtful. What would Howe
do in the modern era. 1000+ plus goals. There's no way to tell. You
just pick out your favorites and enjoy them while they are here. By
the way anyone who says that Hull had worse competition than Gretzky
is full of it. No need even to address that one. nd
Sameer Sehdev
Steve Ranta wrote:
>
> > Was Hull's Chicago team not better than Gretzky's
> > Los Angeles team? . . .
>
> For its time, it was a good team, largely because it had Hull. But it had
> very tough competition in the Habs and the Leafs. The competition faced
> by Gretzky's team in Los Angeles, at least in their half of the league,
> was not of the same consistently high calibre.
Ok now you areguments are becoming "consistently" crazy.
Let's get one thing in the clear, Hull's Chicago team
was a myriad times better than Gretzky's LA team at
any time.
If you can say that Gretzky's team never faced the same
high calibre opposition every night.... then i am
going to use the following two excuses for Gretzky:
1) He had to travel a hell of a lot more in the
Western Conference.. on the EDGE of the continent
when most of his games were played in the middle
or east coast.
2) Gretzky's team did NOT PLAY with the same consistant
high calibre that an NHL team should play with.
>
> . . .
> > > You could build a league around Bobby Hull.
> >
> > It has already been done with Gretzky.
> >
>
> When?
>
1980-1990... get a clue.
rinkrat
A few things in Gretzky's favor..
NHL SINGLE-GAME HIGHS
Points -- 8 (twice); Last: January 4, 1984 vs. Minnesota.
Goals -- 5 (four times); Last: December 6, 1987 vs. Minnesota.
Assists -- 7 (three times); Last: February 14, 1986 vs. Quebec.
NHL RECORDS HELD OR SHARED BY WAYNE GRETZKY
1979-1996, 17 seasons, 1,235
games
CAREER RECORDS
1. Most Goals............................................829
2. Most Assists........................................1,758
3. Highest Assists Per Game Average....................1.423
Minimum 300 assists....(1,758 assists...1,235 games)
4. Most Points.........................................2,587
(829 goals...1,758 assists)
5. Highest Points Per Game Average......................2.09
Minimum 500 points....(2,587 points...1,235 games)
6. Most Goals by a Center................................829
7. Most Assists by a Center............................1,758
8. Most Points by a Center.............................2,587
9. Most Overtime Assists..................................12
10. Most Goals, Including Playoffs........................939
(829 regular season...110 playoff goals)
11. Most Assists, Including Playoffs....................1,994
(1,758 regular season...236 playoff assists)
12. Most Points, Including Playoffs.....................2,933
(2,587 regular season...346 playoff points)
13. Most Games Scoring Three-or-more Goals.................49
(36 three-goal games, 9 four-goal games and 4 five-goal games)
14. Most 40-or-More Goal Seasons...........................12
15. Most Consecutive 40-0r-More Goal Seasons...............12
(from 1979-80 to 1990-91)
16. Most 50-or-More Goal Seasons.....................9 (tied)
17. Most 60-or-More Goal Seasons.....................5 (tied)
18. Most Consecutive 60-or-More Goal Seasons................4
(from 1981-82 to 1984-85)
19. Most 100-or-More Point Seasons.........................14
20. Most Consecutive 100-or-More Point Seasons.............13
(from 1979-80 to 1991-92)
SINGLE SEASON RECORDS
21. Most Goals.............................................92
(1981-82...80-game schedule)
22. Most Assists..........................................163
(1985-86...80-game schedule)
23. Most Points...........................................215
(1985-86...80-game schedule)
24. Most Games Scoring At Least Three Goals................10 two
times;(1981-82: 6
three-goal games...3 four-goal games...1
five-goal game);(1983-84: 6 three-goal games...4 four goal games)
25. Highest Goals Per Game Average.......................1.18
(1983-84; 87 goals...74 games)
26. Highest Assists Per Game Average.....................2.04
(1985-86: 163 assists...80 games)
27. Highest Points Per Game Average......................2.77
(1983-84: 205 points...74 games)
28. Most Goals, Including Playoffs........................100
(1983-84: 87 goals-74 regular season games...13 goals-19 playoff
games)
29. Most Assists, Including Playoffs......................174
(1985-86: 163 assists-80 regular season games...11 assists-10
playoff games)
30. Most Points, Including Playoffs.......................255
(1984-85: 208 points-80 regular season games...47 points-18 playoff
games)
31. Most Goals by a Center.................................92
(1981-82...80-game schedule)
32. Most Assists by a Center..............................163
(1985-86...80-game schedule)
33. Most Points by a Center...............................215
(1985-86...80-game schedule)
34. Most Goals, 50 Games From Start of Season..............61
(1981-82: Oct. 7,1981 to Jan. 22,1982...80-game schedule; 1983-84;
Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan
25, 1984...80-game schedule)
35. Longest Consecutive Point- Scoring Streak From Start of
Season..................................51 games
(1983-84: 61 goals...92 assists - streak ended Jan. 28, 1994 vs.
Los Angeles Kings)
36. Longest Consecutive Point-Scoring Streak.........51 games
(1983-84: Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan 28, 1984...61 goals, 92 assists)
37. Longest Consecutive Assist-Scoring Streak........23 games
(1990-91...48 assists)
SINGLE GAME RECORDS
38. Most Assists.....................................7 (tied) three
times: Feb. 15, 1980 at Edmonton
(Edmonton 8, Washington 2);
Dec. 11, 1985 at Chicago (Edmonton 12, Chicago 8); Feb. 14, 1986
at Edmonton (Edmonton
8,
Quebec 2)
39. Most Assists, Road Game..........................7 (tied)
Dec. 11,1985 at Chicago (Edmonton 12, Chicago 8)
40. Most Assists by a Player in his First NHL Season........7
Feb. 15, 1980, at Edmonton (Edmonton 8, Washington 2)
41. Most Goals, One Period...........................4 (tied)
Feb. 18, 1981, at Edmonton, third period (Edmonton 9, St. Louis 2)
PLAYOFFS-CAREER RECORDS
42. Most Points...........................................345
(110 goals...236 assists)
43. Most Goals............................................110
44. Most Game Winning Goals................................21
45. Most Three-or-more Goal Games...........................8
(2 four-goal games...6 three-goal games)
46. Most Assists..........................................236
SINGLE PLAYOFF YEAR RECORDS
47. Most Points............................................47
1985 (17 goalsand 30 assists in 18 games)
48. Most Short-handed Goals..........................3 (tied)
1983 (twice vs. Winnipeg in division semifinals, won by Edmonton
3-0; once vs. Calgary in
division finals, won by Edmonton 4-1)
49. Most Assists............................................31
(1988...19 games)
SINGLE PLAYOFF SERIES RECORDS
50. Most Points in Final Series.............................13
1988 (4 games plus suspended game vs. Boston, 3 goals, 10 assists)
51. Most Assists in Final Series............................10
1988 (4 games plus suspended game vs. Boston)
52. Most Assists in One Series (other than final)....14 (tied)
1985 conference finals (6 games vs.Chicago)
SINGLE PLAYOFF GAME RECORDS
53. Most Short-Handed Goals...........................2 (tied)
April 6, 1983 at Edmonton (Edmonton6, Winnipeg 3)
54. Most Assists......................................6 (tied)
April 9, 1987 at Edmonton (Edmonton 13, Los Angeles 3)
55. Most Points, One Period...........................4 (tied)
April 12, 1987, at Los Angeles, third period, 1 goal, 3 assists
(Edmonton 6, Los Angeles 3)
56. Most Assists, One Period..........................3 (tied)
(five times)
NHL ALL STAR GAME - CAREER RECORDS
57. Most Goals..............................................12
(15 games played)
58. Most Points......................................19 (tied)
(12 goals, 7 assists in 15 games)
NHL ALL STAR GAME - GAME RECORDS
59. Most Goals........................................4 (tied)
1983, Campbell Conference
60. Most Goals, One Period...................................4
1983, Cambell Conference, third period
61. Most Points, One Period..................................4
1983, Cambell Conference, third period, (4 goals)
NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE - ALL-TIME SCORING LEADERS
POINTS
TEAMS GP POINTS
1. Wayne Gretzky Edm, LA 1235 2587
2. Gordie Howe Det, Hart 1767 1850
3. Marcel Dionne Det, LA, NYR 1348 1771
GOALS
TEAMS GP GOALS
1. Wayne Gretzky Edm, LA 1235 829
2. Gordie Howe Det, Hart 1767 801
3. Marcel Dionne Det, LA, NYR 1348 731
ASSISTS
TEAMS GP ASSISTS
1. Wayne Gretky Edm, LA 1235 1758
2. Gordie Howe Det, Hart 1767 1049
3. Marcel Dionne Det, LA, NYR 1348 1040
WAYNE GRETZKY'S NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE AWARDS
HART MEMORIAL TROPHY (Regular Season Most Valuable Player) - 9 times
1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989
ART ROSS TROPHY (Regular Season Scoring Championship) - 10 times
1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1994
CONN SMYTHE TROPHY (Stanley Cup Playoffs Most Valuable Player) - 2 times
1885, 1988
LESTER B. PEARSON AWARD (NHL'S Outstanding Player - Selected By
Players)
5 times 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987
LADY BYNG MEMORIAL TROPHY (Most Gentlemanly Player) - 4 times
1980, 1991, 1992, 1994
EMERY EDGE AWARD (Best Plus-Minus rating) - 4 times
1983, 1984, 1985, 1987
CHRYSLER-DODGE/NHL PERFORMER OF THE YEAR - 3 times
1985, 1986, 1987
LESTER PATRICK TROPHY - 1 time
1994
-------+
Rink Rat
rin...@ix.netcom.com
rinkrats hockey links http://www.netcom.com/~rinkrat/hockey.html
Ken Nolan
Steve Ranta wrote:
>
> In article <3203FD...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
> <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> . . .
> > Orr better #2: Created bigger salaries for players.
> >
> > this? . . .
>
> Bobby Hull revolutionised player salaries, because as the best-known
> player in the NHL, he signed with the new World Hockey Association,
> creating competition for the NHL.
>
> > a greater influence on the sport than Gretzky. Compare
> > the number of Orr #4 jerseys to the number of
> > Gretzky #99 jerseys that fans wear. Compare the number
> > of people that can identify who #99 is... whether
> > they watch hockey or not.. almost anyone with half
> > a sports brain knows that #99 belongs to Gretzky... of
> > the sport of HOCKEy... this is a given.
>
> Bobby Hull established the WHA, which led to the further expansion of the
> NHL. You could say that Hull was responsible for the very existence of
> many current NHL teams.
>
> You ask any hockey player who is the best player in the
> > world.. and they will tell you this: Gretzky... of all
> > time... Lemieux... of today. Contrary to what you
> > may think... hockey players in the NHL.. know more than
> > you do about who the best hockey players really are.
> >
> > Here is a list of JUST the prominant people that *I*
> > have specifically heard or read calling Gretzky the
> > greatest of all time:
> >
> > Mario Lemieux, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Doug Gilmour,
> > Mark Messier, Paul Kariya, Brett Hull, Shayne Corson,
> > Grant Fuhr, Mike Keenan, Glen Sather, Kevin Stevens.
> >
> > These are JUST the players that i have heard. . .
>
> That certainly doesn't prove that 'any hockey player' would tell you
> Gretzky was the best.
>
> greatest of all time, so they can have an excuse for not being the
> dominant player of their own time, and enhance their own self-image
WHAT IS YOU'RE PROBLEM ASSHOLE!!!! Gretz is gone. True Kings fans will miss him.
And he is the greatest hockey player of ALL time(holder of 61 NHL records,
ENOUGH SAID). The fact is the Kings are moving on, and so are us real fans. So
stop being bitter with all this crap about.......
And I quote you, you prick,
"their rival is the greatest of all time". Every hockey player and fan knows
Gretz is the greatest of all time, always was, always will be, so stop trying to
be controvesial. If you are a Kings fan then get with the program and start
looking forward to whst is going to be one of the most interesting, and I think
surprisingly enjoyable, seasons in franchise history. If not a fan, then keep
you're childish and immature rantings off this newsgroup, you gobshite!!!!!!
Spiderman
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:13:20 -0600, Judy Chew <ch...@acs.ucalgary.ca>
wrote:
Sorry..............case opened
While I totally agree with your first paragraph, you tend to
contradict yourself in the second. They are both great players playing
in different eras, different strategies, different ice surface,
different equipment, different rink construction, different mind set
of the game. Whether its one or five of both players against each
other the only comparison that can be made is their net-worth.
Spiderman
Benjamin Ing
In article <320516...@utoronto.ca>,
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> You are not the greatest hockey
> PLAYER if you revolutionize player salaries... you are
> the greatest hockey diplomat in this case.
> I challenged you to tell
> me how many more 99s do you see than 4s... i asked
> you to tell me how many people know Gretzky's 99 than
> Orr's 4. Another thing.. in North America, Jordan is
> the most popular sports icon... World wide.. no one
> is more popular than Athelete of the Decade: Wayne
> Gretzky. And everyone knows that 99 belongs to him
> and to the sport of hockey. Gretzky has had the
> greatest influence on hockey.
Considering that the 80's & 90's were the bonanza years of sports
marketing, it's no wonder that Gretzky sold more jerseys. Shaquille O'Neal
sells a ton of merchandise. I guess that makes him better than Wilt
Chamberlain and Kareem. I also see tons of Alonzo Mourning jerseys now.
That must make him one of the great all-time players in the NBA.
Unfortunately, your argument about the number of jerseys that Gretzky sells
seems to work against the argument that Orr was a better diplomat. Gretzky
did a wonderful job of marketing the game and profitted handsomely from it
(part of it being from the sale of his "99" jerseys). The fact that the NHL
"broke thru" during Gretzky's career is a credit to Wayne, and also helps
to elevate his status as the greatest. Unfortunately, it is Wayne's lack of
defense that makes it difficult for me to recognize him as the greatest.
Then again, I never thought that games ending 10-8 typified "good" hockey.
BTW, I'll bet that the Kings' B&W "99" jerseys far outsold his Oilers
jerseys. I guess that means that his greatest days were in LA. Those were
the 8 years that Wayne took the Kings to a .500 record, while the
"Wayne-less" Oilers won another cup led by Mark Messier.
Joe Joseph
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>Steve Ranta wrote:
Do you really know anything about hockey or are you just babbling
incoherently while waiting for that lobotomy you obviously require?
Only someone with serious mental problems would call Bobby a wimp when
comparing him to Gretzky. Bobby put up with more than the offensive
defencemen you named simply because the league's rules have since
changed to protect its stars (i.e. bench-clearing brawls, hitting from
behind, instigator fighting to mention a few). These tactics were
common in those days to take the stars out of the game. Bobby stood up
for himself in those days rather than letting designated goons like
Semenko or McSorely do it for him.
In terms of coming back from injuries, you are right that Mario and
Cam have done it too. But Mario's illness, as tragic as it was, does
not compare to Bobby's or Cam's injuries in a hockey sense - you need
knees to skate!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, Cam will soon join Bobby in
premature retirement.
Gretzky is protected from the tough side of hockey by a league that
has finally realized that its stars are its meal ticket. The only
player to ever hit Wayne with anything close to the famous Pat Quinn
hit on Orr was quickly and quietly ushered out of the league
(unfortunately I can't remember his name - maybe someone else can help
me out here). This player was even critisized by his own team-mates.
Quite a difference from the time Bobby Clarke deliberately kneed Orr
to put him on one of his extended stays on the DL.
Later you go on to compare their greatness based on the number of 99
jerseys you see compared to #4. Well I see more Griffey jerseys than
Ruth, Mantle or Williams, so Ken must be the greatest baseball player
of all time.
Finally Gretzky won cups that Bobby did'nt because the way to the
finals were not as tough for Wayne. In Bobby's days the cup finalists
did not neccessarily come from the opposing conference (i.e. 1972 Bos.
vs. NYR.). Thus there was a chance that the number 1&2 teams met in
the finals (i.e. 1975 Bos. vs. Phi.). Meanwhile Wayne's Oilers could
cruise through a weak conference into the finals. I wonder how many
cups they would have won if they had to play against the likes of
Phi., Mon., Bos., NYIslanders, and the Sabres in the preliminary
rounds. These eastern conference games were wars and anyone was
capable of beating anyone else.
Sameer Sehdev
Catseye wrote:
>
> Sameer Sehdev wrote:
>
> > Pretty close in 93 if you ask me.. led playoffs in
> > scoring and had WHAT talent? See above... and
> > reply to me about exactly what talent LA had?
>
> But they did lose to a team who had even LESS talent then themselves.
Hha.. Somehow i think you are wrong. Muller,
Damphousse, Savard, Roy, Bellows somehow looks better
than Robitaille, Sandstrom, Hrudy, Kurri and Gretzky.
Remember this IS way after ALL of their primes.
Those teams were more than evenly matched. Gretzky
led scoring that year in the playoffs with about 40pts.
> Montreal rode Roy to that cup big time. I would figure that, LA with
> Gretzky was a more talented team than Montreal with Roy that year.
This is why Montreal had like *4* HOME losses?
Yet,
> Gretzky was unable to elevate his team to that final plateau.
Montreal was the better team. That is why they WON.
Gretzky was the only thing worth anything on that
team. Sandstrom needs a superstar to produce at all.
Robitaille has done nothing anywhere without the same
thing. Kurri.. need anything be said? Hrudy.. the most
cocky goalie i have seen in the NHL and has NOTHING
to show for it.
>
> Does this mean Roy is the greatest? :)
> Pretty close?
Pattie Anderson
Michael F. Hynes wrote:
>
> dcha...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Daniel Chapman) wrote:
> >Bobby Hull on 1st all-star 10 times and Gretzky on it 8 Times means that
> >GRETZKY was playing against better competetion... Duh! :)
> >
> >Score 1 for the Gretzky team!
> >
> a doubt the best left winger of his era. I don't think many
> would argue with that and I am sure he would get many votes
> for best left winger of all time. But then what other
> great left wingers are there ??? Steve Shutt ??? (I believe he
> holds the record for most goals by a left winger ).
Are you forgetting that Gretzky still has another couple of years left
to make the All-Star team?
chris aberson
As much as all of us want to stop hearing about Gretz, it ain't gonna happen -
Everyone wants to say, Wayne is gone, fuck him -- Give the guy some credit.
Wayne was the best thing to ever happen to us. Let's all remember, his
incredible season with Sandstrom and Granato on his line, the Cup finals, my
favorite, when he broke the all time scoring record in Edmonton.
Think back to Edmonton, (was it 1990?) - Gretz sits in the slot, takes a pass,
and blasts it past the goalie (Fuhr?) to break Howe's scoring record (if you
weren't watching don't even bother to comment, you are worse than the
"bandwagoners" that you complain about). The game is stopped for a ceremony,
Mark Messier has agreed to give speech. Mess is pissed -- he says, yeah,
nice record, I wish it didn't have to occur this way - you're great and all,
but, we should have won this game. The game goes to OT. Gretz scores a goal
to win it. What an incredible moment for the team, hockey, and, of course,
Gretz -- If you remember this, you will relish all that Wayne does.
Gretz shouldn't have to play out his last years on a loser - Being a Kings fan
does not mean you can't be a hockey fan - Any true hockey fan will give Wayne
what he deserves, respect and support. If it weren't for Wayne, hockey may
have left our fine city (just like football did). We may suck, but don't
blame Gretz, if it weren't for him, the Kings might be playing in Canada, as
the Moose Jaw Kings, the West Coast wouldn't have survived, hockey-wise,
without him. If you want to dis Gretz, shut your ass (and mouth, given that
they are differentiated organs) -- give the man, and the history of the NHL,
its proper respect.
Steve Ranta
In article <3208C2...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
<sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
. . .
> Hha.. Somehow i think you are wrong. Muller,
> Damphousse, Savard, Roy, Bellows somehow looks better
> than Robitaille, Sandstrom, Hrudy, Kurri and Gretzky.
. . .
If this is an example of your judgement, how are we supposed to believe
your claims about who is the greatest player of all time?
It seems fairly obvious to most people that the Habs played extremely well
as a team, and the Kings didn't. To say that those five Habs had more
talent than those five Kings is ridiculous.
--
Steve Ranta
Steve Ranta
In article <320700...@netaxs.com>, Ken Nolan <n...@netaxs.com> wrote:
. . .
> WHAT IS YOU'RE PROBLEM ASSHOLE!!!! Gretz is gone. True Kings fans will
miss him.
> And he is the greatest hockey player of ALL time. . . .
He certainly couldn't change the Kings from being one of the NHL's
all-time loser teams.
--
Steve Ranta
Bob
Ken Nolan writes:
:WHAT IS YOU'RE PROBLEM ASSHOLE!!!! Gretz is gone. True Kings fans will miss him.
I'm a true Kings fan and I won't miss him one bit. So, please,
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!
:Every hockey player and fan knows
:Gretz is the greatest of all time, always was, always will be, so stop trying to
:be controvesial.
It's obvious by this tread and many others like it over the years that not
everyone thinks so. This is just YOUR opinion.
:And he is the greatest hockey player of ALL time(holder of 61 NHL records,
:ENOUGH SAID).
I think someone already mentioned his records and this doesn't contribute to
the thread, but it's far from conclusive anyway. All Gretzky's 61 NHL records
prove is that he holds 61 NHL records. Anything beyond that is opinion.
:The fact is the Kings are moving on, and so are us real fans. So
:stop being bitter with all this crap about.......
Yep, it seems it's the Kings fans who can't put the Gretzky trade behind them
who think the Kings are going to stink.
:If you are a Kings fan then get with the program and start
:looking forward to whst is going to be one of the most interesting, and I think
:surprisingly enjoyable, seasons in franchise history.
This I agree with. But it probably won't be until training camp starts in a
month that meaningful discussion about the team will resume. Until then,
we'll just have to put up with some of Gretzky's fans shouting about how they
think he's the best ever.
-Bob
Bill Kirk
Daniel Chapman wrote:
>
> Bobby Hull on 1st all-star 10 times and Gretzky on it 8 Times means that
> GRETZKY was playing against better competetion... Duh! :)
>
> Score 1 for the Gretzky team!
Duh! Hull went to the WHA in his prime and would have had a couple of more NHL 1st All
Star teams. However, with that said having seen both play, Gretzky was better offense
player, playing on the best team of the era. Hull was a great player, playing on a good
team that played against superior competition night in and night out especially prior to
the original expansion.
Gretzky would have scored fewer goals and points in that era and Hull would have scored
more. If asked to pick a player to build a team around it would have to be Gretzky
because Gretz made the players around him better; Hull needed a play making center to be
effective, an analogy to this arguement in the NBA would be Magic vs. Micheal, an
agruement can be made for both sides.
--
Bill Kirk "For improvement there must be change;
bc...@earthlink.net however, not all change is improvement"
Corner of Jack Benny & Rochester
Cucamonga, CA
Sameer Sehdev
Steve Ranta wrote:
>
> If this is an example of your judgement, how are we supposed to believe
> your claims about who is the greatest player of all time?
>
> It seems fairly obvious to most people that the Habs played extremely well
> as a team, and the Kings didn't. To say that those five Habs had more
> talent than those five Kings is ridiculous.
>
> --
> Steve Ranta
It totally depends upon whether or not you are
thinking properly. You want to look dumb.. ok here
we go:
MONTREAL LA
~~~~~~~~ ~~
Roy Hrudy
*do we really need to
argue this one?
Damphousse Robitaille
*I dare you to say that
Robitaille is more skilled,
Go for it.
Savard Kurri
*Both are in the over-the
hill category but if you for
one instant think Kurri is
the better of the two, you
have got something seriously
wrong. Savard was the saviour
for Chicago when Roenick was
injured and before then was
a magnificent addition to the
Tampa Bay Lightening. Before
that he helped the Montreal team
to yet another cup and was a KEY
player in this accomplishment.
Denying this is foolish. Kurri
was NO WHERE near as instrumental
as Savard was. Face it. Gretzky
worked alone in 1993.
Bellows Sandstrom
* I would have to give
Sandstrom a SLIGHT nod in this
case only because Bellows is
not far behind: THEY ARE BOTH
DUDS.
Muller Gretzky
*This is the ONLY one that
I CLEARLY agree with. Gretzky
was indeed worth more to either
team than any other single player.
HOWEVER... one player cannot win
the cup otherwise Lemieux would
have 10.
You foolishly challenged that the LA forwards
were more skilled.. take a second look and tell
me how you came up with this.
HockeyFan
Good conversation.
Sameer Sehdev
Joe Joseph wrote:
>
> Do you really know anything about hockey or are you just babbling
> incoherently while waiting for that lobotomy you obviously require?
Oh the name calling the name calling... sticks and
stones moron.
> Only someone with serious mental problems would call Bobby a wimp when
> comparing him to Gretzky. Bobby put up with more than the offensive
Idiot... i said that one could ARGUE that Bobby was a
wimp based on the the argument that he could not take
a beating as a defenceman. If you need to say that
Orr was the best in the world but no one noticed it
because of his injuries.. YOU are the one with the
serious mental problem. Get it through that thick
skull... Orr had the injuries.. Gretzky did NOT.
FACE IT. It is a fact of life... and whether or not
it was a result of Orr's injuries.. GRETZKY IS THE
GREATEST. STOP using Orr's injuries as an excuse.
Brainless.
> defencemen you named simply because the league's rules have since
> changed to protect its stars (i.e. bench-clearing brawls, hitting from
> behind, instigator fighting to mention a few). These tactics were
It still happens today... do you watch hockey? or
just pretend to? Did you see what Gary Suter did to
Gretzky in 1991. No because you are a moron. Did
you see what Kryger did to Lemieux this year. Did
you see what Gilmour did to Gretzky.
There is more emphasis on protecting the playuers...
but it does NOT HAPPEN to any larger degree. Listen.
If you watched the sport.. you would actually notice
that week in and week out on Satellite Hot stove on
HNIC they talk about this SAME issue and they say that
the reason that the violence has become WORSE (yes..
that is worse... as in the total opposite of what you
have been babbling), is because the players are losing
respect for one another and they believe that since
the other has so much protective equipment... that they
cannot hurt each other. Watch some hockey before
shooting your mouth off.
> common in those days to take the stars out of the game. Bobby stood up
> for himself in those days rather than letting designated goons like
> Semenko or McSorely do it for him.
Oh.. so you mean he played like Eric Lindros... Doug
Gilmour, Shayne Corson, Kirk Muller, Brendan Shanahan,
Mark Messier, Trevor Linden, Scott Stevens, Rick
Tocchet, Chris Chelios, and Gary Suter?
With the exception of Tocchet... has ANYONE in that
list been seriously injured for ANY extent of time?
No. But they played the same way as you say Orr did.
It is just unfortunate that Orr was injured. This
does not make him the best player in the world. I could
go into the NHL for 3 games and score 8 points in each,
and then get a career ending injury. Will you consider
me to be the greatest of all time? No... unless you
are stupid. Orr's injuries are a part of the game.
You cannot say that he was the greatest based on the
fact that he could not finish his career due to injury.
He would NEVER have touched any of 99s records even
if he had finished his career. So get over it.
>
> In terms of coming back from injuries, you are right that Mario and
> Cam have done it too. But Mario's illness, as tragic as it was, does
> not compare to Bobby's or Cam's injuries in a hockey sense - you need
> knees to skate!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, Cam will soon join Bobby in
And you need an uncontaminated blood supply to
breathe. what kind of moron are you? Lemieux's
injuries were just as serious as the other two pal.
Just because you cannot see it does not mean it's not
true. Regardless, Cam will never be considered the
greatest to play the game... he MIGHT MIGHT be
considered the greatest to wear the Boston uniform
but even then he has Orr and Bourque and Espo etc.
Premature injury DOES NOT equal greatest of all time
thus it is time to get a new excuse.
Mario Lemieux has overcome more than most players have
ever over ciome... and SORRY.. but he has overcome
more than Orr. If you take an unbiased opinion, yoiu
will see this. But.. he will not be considered teh
greatest of all time. Maybe the greatest in today's
NHL.. but not of all time.. not better than Gretzky.
>
> Gretzky is protected from the tough side of hockey by a league that
> has finally realized that its stars are its meal ticket. The only
For your information... Gretzky has been taking hits
quite often.. even recently. And it is not entirely
that he was protected.. although I do not doubt there
was some, he was never in a position where he could
GET hit. It has been said by the best commentators..
they notice these things. Harry Neale was surprised
when Suter hit Gretzky saying that Gretzky never
puts himself in a position where he can get hit... and
he was trying to find a reason for why it happened in
1991. A side note: You will notice that Gretzky did
not fold and collapse after that serious back injury
for which he missed HALF of the 92 season.. he came
back and took his team to the CUP FINALS that same
season.
> Quite a difference from the time Bobby Clarke deliberately kneed Orr
> to put him on one of his extended stays on the DL.
Like i told you.. intentional injuries are NOT a thing
of the past. They still happen.
C. Lemieux on K. Draper
U.Samuellson on C.Neely
G.Suter on W.Gretzky
N.Kypreos on G.Fuhr
These are just a few examples.
>
> Later you go on to compare their greatness based on the number of 99
> jerseys you see compared to #4. Well I see more Griffey jerseys than
Fool. I said that Gretzky was the greatest thing
to happen to the sport. Even when he started in
1979... everyone was making him out to be the NHL
poster boy. They knew that this was a legend in
the making. It was no surprise. By bringing up the
idea about the jerseys.. i was trying to show you
that had ORR been the greatest of all time, would he
not be known just a little more world wide? Who is
the most famous hockey player in hockey history?
Who is the most famous SPORTS figure in sports history.
No one EVER answers this question when i ask it.
Because it is Athelete of the decade: Wayne Gretzky.
Not Jordan, Not Ruth, not Lemieux, not Orr, Not Howe,
not Magic Johnson, not Ivan Lendl, not Pele. The
greatest sports figure in the world is Wayne Gretzky.
Everyone knows his #99. I said it before, his number'
is to hockey like spocks ears are to star trek. He
is a living legend. You are absolutely CRAZY to think
that Orr is the best player of all time based on the
fact that he had too many injuries to finish a career
that would in your warped mind, undoubtedly overshadow
Gretzky's (which is still going by the way. Every time
he scores a point he breaks and sets a record.)
>
> Finally Gretzky won cups that Bobby did'nt because the way to the
> finals were not as tough for Wayne. In Bobby's days the cup finalists
Oh shut the hell up. You and your excuses. Why did
the NHL pick Gretzky to protect eh? Why was Orr
not protected? How come Gretzky got the nod? What did
the commisioner do?: "Ok staff, i woudl like to hold
a meeting concerning the protection of Wayne Gretzky
of the newly added Edmonton Oilers.". Give me
a bloody break.
> did not neccessarily come from the opposing conference (i.e. 1972 Bos.
> vs. NYR.). Thus there was a chance that the number 1&2 teams met in
> the finals (i.e. 1975 Bos. vs. Phi.). Meanwhile Wayne's Oilers could
> cruise through a weak conference into the finals. I wonder how many
> cups they would have won if they had to play against the likes of
> Phi., Mon., Bos., NYIslanders, and the Sabres in the preliminary
> rounds. These eastern conference games were wars and anyone was
> capable of beating anyone else.
Gee too bad that the conference with the best teams
COULD NEVER BEAT THE OILERS.
bryan lotto
no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
WIN!!!!!
kriss
O'Brien,
You must be the biggest moron on the face of this earth. Some of your
comments such as:
> I think it should be who you would want on
> your team for a stanley cup game 7 final. I'd take Orr over Gretzky 8
> days a week.are a clear indication that you are a slow, dim-whitted, ignorant. I'm
not talking anything away from Bobby Orr. In fact I myself consider him
to be the greatest defencemen of all time. I also consider Bobby Hull a
great player, one of the great NHL superstars. But to say that Hull or
Orr is the greatest player..... come on. Do you breath through your
asshole? Is that the problem? When was the last time you picked up an
NHL stat book. Gretzky holds over 60 NHL records. The man sold hockey
to the States. Thanks to him Florida and Anahiem got franchises. The
man is a legend. Why do you think they call him "The Great One"? It
was not Gretzky who benefited from the superstars around him. It was
players like Anderson and Kuri that benefited from Gretzky. Did you
ever watch him play while he was an Oiler. Night after night he would
dominate the game. Gretzky is simply the greatest player in NHL
history, and if you disagree then you really should have your head
examined (or your ass, I really don't know which one you use).
CS
kriss
O'Brien,
You must be the biggest moron on the face of this earth. Some of your
comments such as:
> I think it should be who you would want on
> your team for a stanley cup game 7 final. I'd take Orr over Gretzky 8
kriss
O'Brien,
You must be the biggest moron on the face of this earth. Some of your
comments such as:
> I think it should be who you would want on
> your team for a stanley cup game 7 final. I'd take Orr over Gretzky 8
bochum26
kriss wrote:
> You must be the biggest moron on the face of this earth. Some of your
> comments such as:
> > your team for a stanley cup game 7 final. I'd take Orr over Gretzky 8
> not talking anything away from Bobby Orr. In fact I myself consider him
> to be the greatest defencemen of all time. I also consider Bobby Hull a
> great player, one of the great NHL superstars. But to say that Hull or
> Orr is the greatest player..... come on. Do you breath through your
> asshole? Is that the problem? When was the last time you picked up an
> NHL stat book. Gretzky holds over 60 NHL records. The man sold hockey
> to the States. Thanks to him Florida and Anahiem got franchises. The
> man is a legend. Why do you think they call him "The Great One"? It
> was not Gretzky who benefited from the superstars around him. It was
> players like Anderson and Kuri that benefited from Gretzky. Did you
> ever watch him play while he was an Oiler. Night after night he would
> dominate the game. Gretzky is simply the greatest player in NHL
> history, and if you disagree then you really should have your head
> examined (or your ass, I really don't know which one you use).
> CS
nothing to do with Gretzky being a great player - fact is he wasn't
allowed to be bodychecked for most of his career and when he finally
was - he couldn't handle it. Also he wimped out on the Kings last year
with his me first attitude. Gretzky isn't in the same league as Orr,
hockey was played much more physcially in Orr's day.
kriss
O'Brien,
You must be the biggest moron on the face of this earth. Some of your
comments such as:
> I think it should be who you would want on
> your team for a stanley cup game 7 final. I'd take Orr over Gretzky 8
kriss
Sameer Sehdev
chris aberson wrote:hockey-wise,
> without him. If you want to dis Gretz, shut your ass (and mouth, given that
> they are differentiated organs) -- give the man, and the history of the NHL,
> its proper respect.
Nicely said. That is all we are saying here. Gretzky
is the greatest thing to happen to the NHL and there
are just too many people here trying to argue it for
the sake of arguing.
I mean Mario Lemieux is my favourite player of all time
and not just that.. he is my idol.. but there is no
way that i woudl consider him to be the greatest of
all time.
People said that Orr sacrificed his entire career for
playing an extra month of hockey for the country he
loves in the Canada Cup.. well guess what.. has
Gretzky missed an international tournament for Canada?
Hmm... in fact, he MADE his own! Some people man.
Sameer Sehdev
kriss wrote:
> to the States. Thanks to him Florida and Anahiem got franchises. The
> man is a legend. Why do you think they call him "The Great One"? It
> was not Gretzky who benefited from the superstars around him. It was
> players like Anderson and Kuri that benefited from Gretzky. Did you
> ever watch him play while he was an Oiler. Night after night he would
> dominate the game. Gretzky is simply the greatest player in NHL
> history, and if you disagree then you really should have your head
> examined (or your ass, I really don't know which one you use).
> CS
Absolutely. It is so frustrating to hear these people
sit there and argue continuously and fruitlessly.
Bobby Orr was great.. but he is WAS NOT the greatEST.
Face it folks.
Sameer Sehdev
bochum26 wrote:
> > CS
> Nice comments from an obviously ignorant person. Selling the game has
Actually.. ignorance is claiming that Orr is the
greatest of all time while he no where near the
number of records that Gretzky does. Ignorance
is claiming that Orr is the greatst because he
revolutionized the game through creating the opportunity
for larger salaries in the NHL. Ignorance is claiming
that although Gretzky holds 61 NHL records, Orr would
have been close had he not had any injuries.
Surely you must mean to tell me that the greatest
player in hockey is NOT Gretzky but rather Orr. Let's
take another look at this and see if it sinks in:
Gretzky: Athelete of the Decade (ALL SPORTS)
61 NHL Records
9MVP
10 ART ROSS
4 200 pt getter
4 times could have won Art Ross on ASSISTS
alone.
Most points in total all star games
Most points in total Canada/World Cup games
Orr: Revolutionized defence
Revolutionized salary cap.
WOW PRETTY AMAZING!
> nothing to do with Gretzky being a great player - fact is he wasn't
DUH! And revolutionizing player salaries makes
Orr a great player. Is your head on right?
> allowed to be bodychecked for most of his career and when he finally
Your arguments are PATHETIC. What's the matter, was
Orr too wimpy to play at the NHL level. He could not
take the SAME PUNISHMENT as EVERY other defenceman
in the league. Give me a break. What about Bourque.
What about Coffey. And Leetch, and Zubov, and Housely,
and Murphy, and Ozolinsh. ALL of those players are
offensive defenceman who are in no way BIG sized
players. They ALL take the same hits. And they can
all stay in the game.
"Oh... oh... Orr was the greatest of all time... we
just didn't see his greatest years because he had
a career threatening injury".
Whatever.
> was - he couldn't handle it. Also he wimped out on the Kings last year
> with his me first attitude. Gretzky isn't in the same league as Orr,
Me first attitude? Let me try to explain this to
you hot shot:
Gretzky.. in final year of his contract. Decides,
ON FULL RIGHT OF HIS OWN, that he will like to play
on a winner. Will be free agent at end of year.
Now.. what could Gretzky have done... hmmm.. being
over 32 years old and an unrestricted group 3 free
agent.. it means that the Kings would get no
compensation for losing him. BUT.. Gretzky, as fair
as he is... decides to tell the Kings to TRADE for
him so that there is something coming the Kings way.
You are so idiotic to say Gretzky is selfish when you
full well know that he COULD have left the Kings at
the end of the year anyway without letting them get
anything.
> hockey was played much more physcially in Orr's day.
Another bonehead comment. So this makes Orr the better
player?
Len Platt
>> hockey was played much more physcially in Orr's day.
>
>
> Another bonehead comment. So this makes Orr the better
> player?
Nah! It just means that maybe Wayne might not have had as many
opportunities in a league that was smaller and had more overall talent
coming at him. With all the expansions, there definitely has been a
tremendous thinning of quality two way players. In those tougher days
injuries were quite common place and maybe his injuries would have
prevented many opportunities to do his great playing.
Also, these days 'don't rough up the Star'. It's bad for hocky. Let
the bad boys get hit and do the hitting.
Records are easily made in a league that has many players that
wouldn't have made farm clubs of the older league.
Gretzky is a great player but the media machine has made him into an
even bigger star.
bochum26
now then it had in Orr's day - many not very good.
Bobby Orr was the best player ever!!!
leigh
*snip*
> O'Brien,
> You must be the biggest moron on the face of this earth. Some of your
> comments such as:
> > I think it should be who you would want on
> > your team for a stanley cup game 7 final. I'd take Orr over Gretzky 8
> > days a week.are a clear indication that you are a slow, dim-whitted, ignorant. I'm
> to be the greatest defencemen of all time. I also consider Bobby Hull a
> great player, one of the great NHL superstars. But to say that Hull or
> Orr is the greatest player..... come on. Do you breath through your
> asshole? Is that the problem? When was the last time you picked up an
> NHL stat book. Gretzky holds over 60 NHL records. The man sold hockey
> man is a legend. Why do you think they call him "The Great One"? It
> was not Gretzky who benefited from the superstars around him. It was
> players like Anderson and Kuri that benefited from Gretzky. Did you
> ever watch him play while he was an Oiler. Night after night he would
> dominate the game. Gretzky is simply the greatest player in NHL
> history, and if you disagree then you really should have your head
> examined (or your ass, I really don't know which one you use).
> CS
Kriss,
It obvious that you didn't watch Orr play. Yes, Gretzky has all these records but if
Hull, Howe or Richard played in a post 1979 NHL what would be their stats? To me Gretzky
came along at right time to take advantage of his skills. The league wide GAA must have
been a goal high than it is today. The game of that era was totally greared towards
offense, as the game change back to a defense game Gretzky numbers started to go down
accordingly.
I have watched Wayne since his rookie season and the time he spendt in LA and I have no
doubt that he is the best *offense* player I have ever seen but as an all around player
he lacks many skills, fore and back checking and faceoffs. When you are heads and
shoulders better than any other player offensively these short coming are over looked,
however, when skills decline like Gretz have over the last four season these thing
become more noticable, especially when you are a minus player when you win the Ross
Trophy.
I have also watched Bobby Orr play through his entire career, can you say that. Orr was
the Gretzky of his era, so much better than any other player and different. The game
change because of Bobby Orr, and not to be overlooked the Soviets influence since 1972.
During Orr's career the game was much more defensive orientated than it is even today,
even with his revolution. If he played today and stayed healthy, with the arthroscopic
surgery his career probably would not have been cut short as it was, where would be his
numbers?
If I were to chose one over than other it would be Orr because of his better all around
game. I learned during the 1970's that the record books and statistics are meaningless
watching a diabetic center from Flin Flon that every NHL passed on in the first entry
draft, who won 3 Hart Trophy's without ever winning a Ross, who went to 4 Cup finals
winning 2. The player...Bobby Clarke. Statistically two of his contemperaries are
better, Dionne and Perrault, between them 1,200 goals; 0 Cups. Who would you rather
have? Don't think that because I think Orr was a better player that I don't think
Gretzky isn't every bit the superstar that he has been I just differ with your opinion.
Michael F. Hynes
You are entitled to your opinions about Wayne Gretzky and
there is certainly a strong case to be made for the fact
that he was the best hockey player ever (I happen not to agree,
but I can certainly understand why you think so).
However you place FAR too much emphasis on records and
statistics. Does Donovan Bailey's world record make him the
greatest sprinter of all time ? I would argue, no. He has
better training, equipment, and nutrition than a lot of older
sprinters, and hasn't won consistently enough.
And by even mentioning Gretzky in the same breath as Pele you
are destroying your credibility. Most of the world hasn't even
heard of ice hockey, and probably over 90 % of the population of
this planet has never heard of Wayne.
And Pele had all sorts of class, charisma, and greatness that
Gretzky could never aspire to. He didn't whine to refs. He
didn't whine to get traded, he didn't whine when deliberate
injuries inflcited on him in two world cups (1962 1966) kept him
out of action. he won his first world cup at 17 in 1958
and his second at 29 in 1970. After retiring from Brazilian
soccer, instead of going to make huge bucks in Europe he accepted
the challenge of being an ambassador for the sport in the states.
Did Gretzky ever do anything close to this ? Why doesn't
he go to Europe as an ambassador of the game ? Or back
to Edmonton on a small salary to help out the team that
launched him to fame ? The reason many people object to
arguments about Gretzky's "greatness" is that he does (and did)
not show any greatness of character. This tends to cloud
people's judgement of his talent.
By the way soccer is the biggest sport in the world, and the world
cup is the biggest sporting event in the world (yes, bigger than
the Olympics). To pretend otherwise is to be a parochial
ostrich. And you would get far less argument from soccer fans
that Pele was the greatest than you are getting on your Gretzky
crusade.
Steve Ranta
In article <320de4b0...@news.inforamp.net>, lenp...@inforamp.net
(Len Platt) wrote:
. . . It just means that maybe Wayne might not have had as many
> opportunities in a league that was smaller and had more overall talent
> coming at him. With all the expansions, there definitely has been a
> tremendous thinning of quality two way players. In those tougher days
> injuries were quite common place and maybe his injuries would have
> prevented many opportunities to do his great playing. . . .
Yet Orr prospered when the league was perhaps its weakest ever following
the late 1960s expansion.
Hull had his best years before expansion.
--
Steve Ranta
Steve Ranta
In article <320E95...@netcom.ca>, bochum26 <boch...@netcom.ca> wrote:
. . .
> Your totally correct Len- the league has 4 times the amount of players
> now then it had in Orr's day - many not very good.
>
> Bobby Orr was the best player ever!!!
Hmm. Remember the Oakland Seals, Pittsburgh Penguins, Philadephia Flyers,
and Los Angeles Kings in the late 1960s? Despite running up huge
regular-season goal totals, the Bruins usually met their demise in the
playoffs when they had to play real teams.
I would also submit that most of the old-timers who were encouraged to
play in the expansion teams would have been a laughing stock if they had
attempted to play at the same point in their careers in the early 1960s,
1980s, or 1990s.
--
Steve Ranta
Joe Joseph
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>Joe Joseph wrote:
>>
>> Do you really know anything about hockey or are you just babbling
>> incoherently while waiting for that lobotomy you obviously require?
> Oh the name calling the name calling... sticks and
> stones moron.
>> Only someone with serious mental problems would call Bobby a wimp when
>> comparing him to Gretzky. Bobby put up with more than the offensive
> Idiot... i said that one could ARGUE that Bobby was a
> wimp based on the the argument that he could not take
> a beating as a defenceman. If you need to say that
> Orr was the best in the world but no one noticed it
> because of his injuries.. YOU are the one with the
> serious mental problem. Get it through that thick
> skull... Orr had the injuries.. Gretzky did NOT.
> FACE IT. It is a fact of life... and whether or not
> it was a result of Orr's injuries.. GRETZKY IS THE
> GREATEST. STOP using Orr's injuries as an excuse.
> Brainless.
It is obvious that lobotomy can't come fast enough since it is
affecting your reading skills. I have yet to use Bobby's injuries as
an excuse. Despite those injuries, his numbers and achievements can
stand on their own. The defencemen you named have yet to match his
achievements despite their better health - 2 scoring titles and a year
when his +/- exceeded 120!!!- while spending 100+ minutes in the
penalty box because he had to take care of ALL the business on the
ice- not just the scoring aspect like Wimpy Wayne. It is obvious that
you have not seen a real hockey game in your life or else you would
realize there are two aspects to the game - offence and defence. One
can't be the greatest unless he excels at both aspects. Bobby did,
Wayne did'nt. Argument over. If you want to claim Wayne is the
greatest offensive player or the greatest marketing tool - you may get
an argument from Mario fans but not from me. None of the defencemen
you named had to have 3 knee surgeries like Orr, so your comparison
against them is meaningless.
>> defencemen you named simply because the league's rules have since
>> changed to protect its stars (i.e. bench-clearing brawls, hitting from
>> behind, instigator fighting to mention a few). These tactics were
> It still happens today... do you watch hockey? or
> just pretend to? Did you see what Gary Suter did to
> Gretzky in 1991. No because you are a moron. Did
> you see what Kryger did to Lemieux this year. Did
> you see what Gilmour did to Gretzky.
What Gary Suter and Doug Gilmour did to Gretzky is part of the game-
it is called checking. There was nothing dirty about it-I watched both
games. It is just you Ice Capade loving Gretzky Wimps that think the
poor lad should be allowed to do whatever he wants. Once in a great
while he is actually exposed to true hockey and can't hide behind
Messier or Semenko or McSorely.
> There is more emphasis on protecting the playuers...
> but it does NOT HAPPEN to any larger degree. Listen.
> If you watched the sport.. you would actually notice
> that week in and week out on Satellite Hot stove on
> HNIC they talk about this SAME issue and they say that
> the reason that the violence has become WORSE (yes..
> that is worse... as in the total opposite of what you
> have been babbling), is because the players are losing
> respect for one another and they believe that since
> the other has so much protective equipment... that they
> cannot hurt each other. Watch some hockey before
> shooting your mouth off.
Hey Bozo, how many bench-clearing brawls have you seen in the last 5
years??? If you could read you will know that the protection I am
talking about is mandated protection against such things as
Bench-clearing brawls, instigator fighting, third-man in etc. If you
had watched hockey in the early seventies, you would realize that
these were tactics used to deliberately neutralize the better
opponents. Bobby had to fight the likes of Ferguson, Flaman and even
Howe. When was Wayne's last fight?? I pity the person who had to
clean his soiled underwear after that one.The protective equipment
does encourage more tugging and grabbing after the play because the
players do know they won't be hurt because they have the equipment on.
But they also know that their chances of getting into a serious fight
with the tougher guys on the other team are unlikely since the the
league protects them with a two-tiered system of justice (see Domi vs.
Samuelsson).
>> common in those days to take the stars out of the game. Bobby stood up
>> for himself in those days rather than letting designated goons like
>> Semenko or McSorely do it for him.
> Oh.. so you mean he played like Eric Lindros... Doug
> Gilmour, Shayne Corson, Kirk Muller, Brendan Shanahan,
> Mark Messier, Trevor Linden, Scott Stevens, Rick
> Tocchet, Chris Chelios, and Gary Suter?
I notice that Wayne's name is conspicuosly absent from this list. I
also notice that there is'nt a single scoring champ among this list
(although I like most of the players on this list and consider them
better all-around players than Wayne). How many of the defensemen on
your list have had 100+ seasons even once. Orr has outscored every
player on your list including the forwards.
> With the exception of Tocchet... has ANYONE in that
> list been seriously injured for ANY extent of time?
Gee, I guess you have'nt been following the career of Eric Lindros too
well. How many times has he been on the injury list in his short
career? Kirk Muller has been able to sustain his level play has'nt
he?? Ask Toronto fans about the decline in Gilmour's level of play.
Linden has had two great seasons in his career. Scott Stevens had a
great year last year did'nt he?? as did Shayne Corson!!!
> No. But they played the same way as you say Orr did.
> It is just unfortunate that Orr was injured. This
> does not make him the best player in the world. I could
> go into the NHL for 3 games and score 8 points in each,
> and then get a career ending injury. Will you consider
> me to be the greatest of all time? No... unless you
If however, you won two scoring titles as a DEFENCEMAN!!!, eight
straight (I think) Norris trophies, a couple of MVP and CONN SMYTHE
trophies, consistently scored over 100 points as a DEFENCEMAN, could
be +120 while battling back from 3 knee surgeries I may consider it-
But some idiot would still say you did'nt deserve it because some
net-hanging, one way wimpy forward who was'nt even the best two-way
player on his own team has 61 OFFENSIVE records.
> are stupid.
Orr's injuries are a part of the game.
> You cannot say that he was the greatest based on the
> fact that he could not finish his career due to injury.
> He would NEVER have touched any of 99s records even
> if he had finished his career. So get over it.
Did I ever say this??? I think despite his injuries he was the
greatest TWO-WAY hockey player ever!!!!!
>>
>> In terms of coming back from injuries, you are right that Mario and
>> Cam have done it too. But Mario's illness, as tragic as it was, does
>> not compare to Bobby's or Cam's injuries in a hockey sense - you need
>> knees to skate!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, Cam will soon join Bobby in
> And you need an uncontaminated blood supply to
> breathe. what kind of moron are you? Lemieux's
> injuries were just as serious as the other two pal.
> Just because you cannot see it does not mean it's not
> true. Regardless, Cam will never be considered the
> greatest to play the game... he MIGHT MIGHT be
> considered the greatest to wear the Boston uniform
> but even then he has Orr and Bourque and Espo etc.
> Premature injury DOES NOT equal greatest of all time
> thus it is time to get a new excuse.
If you know anything about the treatment that Mario went through, you
would know that it is a series that has a begining and an end. I know
because I have had a family member go through a similar experience.
Thus even though you are weakened, you can eventually regain your
strength at the end of your treatment period. This is different from
successive knee surgeries that degenerate the condition of the knee on
a cumulative basis. I do not want to imply that Mario's illness was
not as serious as the others (From a life perspective it was more so)-
but from the ability to recover and regain your HOCKEY SKILLS, the
knee injuries are more serious. I have yet to make the argument that
permature injury "equal greatest of all time".
> Mario Lemieux has overcome more than most players have
> ever over ciome... and SORRY.. but he has overcome
> more than Orr. If you take an unbiased opinion, yoiu
> will see this. But.. he will not be considered teh
> greatest of all time. Maybe the greatest in today's
> NHL.. but not of all time.. not better than Gretzky.
>>
>> Gretzky is protected from the tough side of hockey by a league that
>> has finally realized that its stars are its meal ticket. The only
> For your information... Gretzky has been taking hits
> quite often.. even recently. And it is not entirely
> that he was protected.. although I do not doubt there
> was some, he was never in a position where he could
> GET hit. It has been said by the best commentators..
> they notice these things. Harry Neale was surprised
Harry Neale??? If this imbecile knew anything about hockey he would be
back coaching.>
when Suter hit Gretzky saying that Gretzky never
> puts himself in a position where he can get hit... and
> he was trying to find a reason for why it happened in
> 1991. A side note: You will notice that Gretzky did
> not fold and collapse after that serious back injury
> for which he missed HALF of the 92 season.. he came
> back and took his team to the CUP FINALS that same
> season.
My what a brave boy he is!!! ONE injuy for 1/2 season - Maybe he
should get a Congressional Medal of Honour!!
>> Quite a difference from the time Bobby Clarke deliberately kneed Orr
>> to put him on one of his extended stays on the DL.
> Like i told you.. intentional injuries are NOT a thing
> of the past. They still happen.
>
> C. Lemieux on K. Draper
> U.Samuellson on C.Neely
> G.Suter on W.Gretzky
> N.Kypreos on G.Fuhr
>
> These are just a few examples.
I think the fact you can remember every hit Wayne has ever taken and
the fact that this rather 'extensive' list covers over a 5 year period
proves my point.
I hate to burst your little bubble but you refer to athlete of the
decade - as determined by who?? and anyway, which decade- Orr and Hull
did'nt play in the 80's or 90's. Neither did Ruth, Howe, Pele etc.
Anyway was'nt this supposed to be about greatest of all-time?? not
just one decade!! If you are talking about most recognizable athlete,
you are way off-base: Ali, Jordan and Pele are far more recognizable
and popular world-wide.
Joe Joseph
sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
>In article <320E95...@netcom.ca>, bochum26 <boch...@netcom.ca> wrote:
>. . .
>> Your totally correct Len- the league has 4 times the amount of players
>> now then it had in Orr's day - many not very good.
>>
>> Bobby Orr was the best player ever!!!
>Hmm. Remember the Oakland Seals, Pittsburgh Penguins, Philadephia Flyers,
>and Los Angeles Kings in the late 1960s? Despite running up huge
>regular-season goal totals, the Bruins usually met their demise in the
>playoffs when they had to play real teams.
Or the Quebec Nordiques, Winnipeg Jets, Vancouver Canucks, Toronto
Maple Leafs, Detroit Red Wings and Los Angeles Kings of the 80's.
Co-incidentally, all but one of these teams were in Wayne's
conference.
>--
>Steve Ranta
Neil Polo
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:28:29 -0700 leigh wrote:
>[snip]
>During Orr's career the game was much more defensive orientated than it is even today,
>even with his revolution. If he played today and stayed healthy, with the arthroscopic
>surgery his career probably would not have been cut short as it was, where would be his
>numbers?
>If I were to chose one over than other it would be Orr because of his better all around
>game. I learned during the 1970's that the record books and statistics are meaningless
>watching a diabetic center from Flin Flon that every NHL passed on in the first entry
>draft, who won 3 Hart Trophy's without ever winning a Ross, who went to 4 Cup finals
>winning 2. The player...Bobby Clarke. [snip]
You *all* make interesting arguments, and Hull, Orr, and Gretzky are
worthy of consideration. But first, let's get rid of the notion that
Bobby Clarke was in that class, eh? His team was a disgrace to hockey,
and his accomplishments are forever tainted by the utter brutality of
the original goon squad. You just can't judge him.
The argument "who is the best player of all time" is pretty clear to
me <g>. Hull fails the test in several ways, but mostly because he
didn't make the players around him any better. Orr fails the test
based on longevity alone. The greatest player is Gretzky.
Who *would* have been the best player of all time if not for . . .
[pick a reason]? Hard to tell. Maybe that BU player who was paralyzed
after hitting the boards in his first game might have been. But one
could make a good argument for Orr. I know *I* would. If I had a
choice between Orr and Gretzky on day 1 of their careers I'd probably
choose Orr.
But, based on the record, Gretzky is clearly the greatest. No one
comes close in *actual* performance.
Regards,
Neil
Joe Joseph
lo...@ix.netcom.com(bryan lotto) wrote:
>no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
>WIN!!!!!
I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he was
such a classy person.
Sameer Sehdev
leigh wrote:
>
> Kriss,
>
> It obvious that you didn't watch Orr play. Yes, Gretzky has all these records but if
Let's start off with one thing. When anyone says that
Gretzky is the better of the two players.. someone
here says that that person did not watch Orr play. Is
it really that hard to admit that the person has
actually watched BOTH players and is making a decision
based on that?
> Hull, Howe or Richard played in a post 1979 NHL what would be their stats? To me Gretzky
> came along at right time to take advantage of his skills. The league wide GAA must have
> been a goal high than it is today. The game of that era was totally
Ridiculous. Absolutely Rediculous. Ok i won't even
address that issue.. let's look at the other thing
you said: Gretzky came along at the right time to
take advantage of his skills. his SKILLS? His skills
were the BEST in the league. This is why he has
achieved more than anyone else. I do not care if you
put Orr and Gretzky in the same era... defencsive era
or offensive it does not matter, there is no way that
Orr would ever have got Gretzky iin any major
statistical category that Gretzky currently holds
records for. Face it.
greared towards
> offense, as the game change back to a defense game Gretzky numbers started to go down
> accordingly.
Good be his age. Let's be realistic shall we?
>
> I have watched Wayne since his rookie season and the time he spendt in LA and I have no
> doubt that he is the best *offense* player I have ever seen but as an all around player
> he lacks many skills, fore and back checking and faceoffs. When you are heads and
> shoulders better than any other player offensively these short coming are over looked,
God help you. If Gretzky is the best offensive
player in your opinion, then i call Orr the best
defensive player. But Orr cannot be the best OFFENSIVE
player if Gretzky is already the best as you have
admitted. I have used the Basketball example
many times and have never received a rebuttle to it.
Pippen is the best overall player in the world, but he
is not the GREATEST basketball player to ever play
the game. Jordan is. And Jordan's game is lacking
in the defensive department. JUST LIKE Gretzky.
>
> I have also watched Bobby Orr play through his entire career, can you say that. Orr was
> the Gretzky of his era, so much better than any other player and
That is fine.. he was. But no one is Wayne Gretzky
and no one is close. No one has done what Wayne has
for his sport. Face it.
> surgery his career probably would not have been cut short as it was, where would be his
> numbers?
If "Ifs" and "Buts" were candies and nuts we would all
have a merry christmas. The point is that IF Orr
was healthy.. he could have scored 0 points for the
rest of his career. You cannot say that he would have
been guaranteed to score hundreds of points. Nothing
is for sure.
> If I were to chose one over than other it would be Orr because of his better all around
And I would choose Gretzky. Orr wins you games, Gretzky
wins you cups. Look... really simple: Number of Oiler
wins vs. Number of Boston wins.
> winning 2. The player...Bobby Clarke. Statistically two of his contemperaries are
> better, Dionne and Perrault, between them 1,200 goals; 0 Cups. Who
Give me a BREAK. Put Dionne and Perrault on
Philly and THEN talk to me. What an absurd comparison.
would you rather
> have? Don't think that because I think Orr was a better player that I don't think
> Gretzky isn't every bit the superstar that he has been I just differ with your opinion.
>
On the contrary this is exactly what i think. You
are entitled to your opinion and if you want orr you
can have him.. i will GLADLY take Gretzky over Orr
and we will see who wins more championships.. because
that is all that really matters.
Joe Joseph
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>bochum26 wrote:
>> > CS
>> Nice comments from an obviously ignorant person. Selling the game has
> Actually.. ignorance is claiming that Orr is the
> greatest of all time while he no where near the
> number of records that Gretzky does. Ignorance
> is claiming that Orr is the greatst because he
> revolutionized the game through creating the opportunity
> for larger salaries in the NHL. Ignorance is claiming
> that although Gretzky holds 61 NHL records, Orr would
> have been close had he not had any injuries.
I do not recall reading anywhere in this thread that Orr would have
passed Gretzky's 61 OFFENSIVE records if he had been injury free. I
think it is time for you to stop putting words in other people's
mouths. I do however recall seeing people say that Orr was a better
ALL-AROUND player than Wayne. An argument that you seem to not want to
touch.
> Surely you must mean to tell me that the greatest
> player in hockey is NOT Gretzky but rather Orr. Let's
> take another look at this and see if it sinks in:
> Gretzky: Athelete of the Decade (ALL SPORTS)
> 61 NHL Records
> 9MVP
> 10 ART ROSS
> 4 200 pt getter
> 4 times could have won Art Ross on ASSISTS
> alone.
> Most points in total all star games
> Most points in total Canada/World Cup games
>
Maybe someday it will sink in to you that these records are great -
impressive even- but they are OFFENSIVE RECORDS for a forward. Orr won
scoring titles as a DEFENSEMAN!!!!!!!! HE played both ends of the rink
and took care of his own physical duties. Orr only played in one
Canada Cup and was its MVP (while he only had 1 good knee). Again I
will grant you he is the greatest OFFENSIVE player of all-time (Mario
fans please forgive me) as well as the best marketing tool (due mainly
to the timing of his career). But don't discount Bobby's influence on
hockey in the U.S. Most of the best U.S. hockey players in the now
come from the New England area - Roenick, Berard, Amonte,
Leetch,Stevens etc.- due mainly to the popularity of the Bruins and
Orr.
> Orr: Revolutionized defence
> Revolutionized salary cap.
> WOW PRETTY AMAZING!
>
>> nothing to do with Gretzky being a great player - fact is he wasn't
> DUH! And revolutionizing player salaries makes
> Orr a great player. Is your head on right?
>> allowed to be bodychecked for most of his career and when he finally
> Your arguments are PATHETIC. What's the matter, was
> Orr too wimpy to play at the NHL level. He could not
> take the SAME PUNISHMENT as EVERY other defenceman
> in the league. Give me a break. What about Bourque.
> What about Coffey. And Leetch, and Zubov, and Housely,
> and Murphy, and Ozolinsh. ALL of those players are
> offensive defenceman who are in no way BIG sized
> players. They ALL take the same hits. And they can
> all stay in the game.
Already addressed in earlier post!!
> "Oh... oh... Orr was the greatest of all time... we
> just didn't see his greatest years because he had
> a career threatening injury".
> Whatever.
>> was - he couldn't handle it. Also he wimped out on the Kings last year
>> with his me first attitude. Gretzky isn't in the same league as Orr,
> Me first attitude? Let me try to explain this to
> you hot shot:
> Gretzky.. in final year of his contract. Decides,
> ON FULL RIGHT OF HIS OWN, that he will like to play
> on a winner. Will be free agent at end of year.
> Now.. what could Gretzky have done... hmmm.. being
> over 32 years old and an unrestricted group 3 free
> agent.. it means that the Kings would get no
> compensation for losing him. BUT.. Gretzky, as fair
> as he is... decides to tell the Kings to TRADE for
> him so that there is something coming the Kings way.
> You are so idiotic to say Gretzky is selfish when you
> full well know that he COULD have left the Kings at
> the end of the year anyway without letting them get
> anything.
>> hockey was played much more physcially in Orr's day.
> Another bonehead comment. So this makes Orr the better
> player?
Yes!!! At least better than Wayne!
Melissa and Victor Libby
This debate sure has been keeping me on the edge of my seat...
I know that I echo the thoughts of many in the Wings newsgroup that
Gordie Howe was better than both those guys...plus he's got that
hilarious SportsCenter commercial going for him.
Victor Libby
Wings in 97...please!
bochum26
How about Alex Delveccio? OK it's getting silly but hey sure beats
people calling each other names.
Take care - Flames go!!!
Steve Ranta
In article <320F9B...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
<sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
. . . Gretzky came along at the right time to
> take advantage of his skills. his SKILLS? His skills
> were the BEST in the league. This is why he has
> achieved more than anyone else. I do not care if you
> put Orr and Gretzky in the same era . . .
Gretzky and Orr both had their best years after a large expansion. Hull
was the dominant player at the height of the six-team league.
--
Steve Ranta
Steve Ranta
In article <4uoefe$7...@goodnews.voicenet.com>, np...@voicenet.com (Neil
Polo) wrote:
. . . let's get rid of the notion that
> Bobby Clarke was in that class, eh? His team was a disgrace to hockey,
> and his accomplishments are forever tainted by the utter brutality of
> the original goon squad. . . .
How quickly people forget! There have been lots of 'goon' squads, and the
late 1960s Bruins were among the most violent of all. I think you would
have trouble finding a worse goon even on the Flyers than Ted Green, for
example.
--
Steve Ranta
Brent McCombs
...While I have enjoyed this rousing debate, I was just thinking
that perhaps the term "greatest" is impossible to quantify, and the
number of records held is probably the among the worst ways to do it. As
a hockey fan, I just have to say that both Orr and Gretz were/are great.
Orr was likely his era's greatest, and Gretz was the Greatest of his era.
I've been lucky enough to meet them both on a few occasions, and they are
both great people as well - something that can not be said about all
hockey players.
To marginalise either man's accomplishments merely for the sake
of winning a debate about an obviously subjective issue is not only
tedious after a point, but when taken to far has the potential to do a
disservice to the game we all love.
While as a Canadian, I can truely become empassioned about the
sport, I also like to, every once in a while, take a step back from that
ever encraoching American tendancy to Rank/quantify/ or proclaim a
"greatest of all time."
In fact, if you asked either Orr or Gretzky who they thought the
greatest of all time was, they would disagree too, but neither would pick
themself.
In fact, other than American's who claim the title:
Muhammad Ali "I am the greatest", Elvis Presley "The King" and Micheal
Johnson "I am the world's fastest man", (ed. note: nice try
goldyshoes...Way to Go Donovan!) there really can not be a single
greatest of all time - unless the media is selling and the society is buying.
-Brent
__________________
Brent McCombs
Dept. of National Security & War Studies,
Royal Military College of Canada.
PS.
Besides, everyone knows that Walt Podubny was the _real_ Greatest.
Bill Kirk
Hull was a dominate player, agreed, but not *the* dominate player. I have followed the
NHL since 1966, Orr's rookie season. In that time frame the only players I consider
overwhelmingly dominate are Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux. In my opinion defense and center
are the only position the game dominator can come from. You can make an arguement for
goaltender but he is only as good as the teams' defense. The winger by nature needs a
center to score. Bobby Hull was only of the most exciting players I *saw* play and as
an ambassador of the game equal to Gretzky.
Also, if I am not mistaken I saw Bobby Hull against the expansion Philadelphia Flyers,
so don't tell me Hull didn't feed from the same trough as Gretzky and Orr or maybe that
12-0 loss by the Flyers in the 1968-69 was just a bad dream.
Bill Kirk
Steve Ranta wrote:
>
> In article <320F9B...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
> <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> . . . Gretzky came along at the right time to
> > take advantage of his skills. his SKILLS? His skills
> > were the BEST in the league. This is why he has
> > achieved more than anyone else. I do not care if you
> > put Orr and Gretzky in the same era . . .
>
> Gretzky and Orr both had their best years after a large expansion. Hull
> was the dominant player at the height of the six-team league.
>
> --
> Steve Ranta
Hull was a dominate player, agreed, but not *the* dominate player. I have followed the
NHL since 1966, Orr's rookie season. In that time frame the only players I consider
overwhelmingly dominate are Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux. In my opinion defense and center
are the only position the game dominator can come from. You can make an arguement for
goaltender but he is only as good as the teams' defense. The winger by nature needs a
center to score. Bobby Hull was only of the most exciting players I *saw* play and as
an ambassador of the game equal to Gretzky.
--
Sameer Sehdev
Joe Joseph wrote:
> It is obvious that lobotomy can't come fast enough since it is
> affecting your reading skills. I have yet to use Bobby's injuries as
> an excuse. Despite those injuries, his numbers and achievements can
You didn't? So why does that word come up in this
thread so many times? Do I bring it up? Hmm..no.
I do not think so...
> stand on their own. The defencemen you named have yet to match his
> achievements despite their better health - 2 scoring titles and a year
> when his +/- exceeded 120!!!- while spending 100+ minutes in the
I did NOT say he was not great. The point is,
he is NOT the greatEST to play the game. You want
to bring up stats obviously... allow me to point
out that this would be a GROSS mistake on your part as
I will quash your 3 stats with dozens in favour of
Gretzky.
> penalty box because he had to take care of ALL the business on the
> ice- not just the scoring aspect like Wimpy Wayne. It is obvious that
Hooo oh ya. He took care of all the business alright.
Just thought i would let you know that the name
"Big Bad" in front of Bruins did not solely fall in
front of ORR's name. There were a FEW more players
playing that style on the team. As if Orr was the
the saviour physically for Boston. What a crock.
> you have not seen a real hockey game in your life or else you would
> realize there are two aspects to the game - offence and defence. One
> can't be the greatest unless he excels at both aspects. Bobby did,
How dumb can you get? How many times did the
opposition have the puck when Wayne's line was on
the ice bucko? Not too often. Who went 16-0 in
the playoffs (forgot which year) to claim the cup?
Ooohh.. that's what i thought. Who was the main reason
for this? Gretzky. Who holds the most records? Gretzky
who holds the most scoring titles.. Gretzky. Who does
the world recognize as the athelete of the decade?
Wayne Gretzky. Bobby who?
> Wayne did'nt. Argument over. If you want to claim Wayne is the
> greatest offensive player or the greatest marketing tool - you may get
Argument over for you: You say that Gretzky never
excelled defensively? Wayne is a forward.. the best
in the world. And you want him to play defence? Are
you smoking crack? Listen... get this through: To
say that Wayne was not good defensively shows just
how stupid you really are. To say that Wayne was
not good defensively means to say that Wayne was
a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. Now, crackhead... when Wayne
stepped onto the ice.. was Sather worried? Did he
say.. oh no... Wayne "Defensive Liability" Gretzky
is on.. better get some wicked defence out there to
save us. No.. because Gretzky always had the puck.
If you had a brain.. you woudl see this.
Gretzky's defensive game has become poorer thanx
to a decline in skills and speed. AGE.
> an argument from Mario fans but not from me. None of the defencemen
I am a Mario fan cheif and i am in favour of Gretzky
in this one.
> you named had to have 3 knee surgeries like Orr, so your comparison
> against them is meaningless.
>
STUPID: Did you just not say that you had not
used Injuries as an excuse? Did i not say
that you did... HERE IS THE PROOF. You do
it without even noticing it.
> What Gary Suter and Doug Gilmour did to Gretzky is part of the game-
> it is called checking. There was nothing dirty about it-I watched both
> games. It is just you Ice Capade loving Gretzky Wimps that think the
God help you. Gary Suter cleanly HIT Gretzky?
Go watch it again. It was an illegal cross check
from BEHINd. I HAVE IT on tape.
> poor lad should be allowed to do whatever he wants. Once in a great
He has been taking hits like crazy in the past season.
Did you happen to notice that he was the points leader
for both teams he played for this season? Did you
happen to notice that even after taking all those
hits he still led the blues in scoring? Did you notice
that you are the one needing the lobotamy.
> while he is actually exposed to true hockey and can't hide behind
> Messier or Semenko or McSorely.
Like he did in St.Louis when he led the team in scoring
in the playoffs and extended heavily favoured Detroit
to overtime of the 7th game?
> Howe. When was Wayne's last fight?? I pity the person who had to
Let me get this straight.. your idea of the best
player in the world should have fighting as part
of his agenda? Before we drill that hole in your
head... boxing is the sport you should be watching.
Not hockey.
> > Oh.. so you mean he played like Eric Lindros... Doug
> > Gilmour, Shayne Corson, Kirk Muller, Brendan Shanahan,
> > Mark Messier, Trevor Linden, Scott Stevens, Rick
> > Tocchet, Chris Chelios, and Gary Suter?
> I notice that Wayne's name is conspicuosly absent from this list. I
THAT's BECAUSE HE's A HOCKEY PLAYER NOT A BOXER.
You have got a screw loose up there. First you say
that Orr was so bloody amazing because he had to take
care of himself and play a physical game just at the
same time as scoring... I GAVE YOU A LIST OF PLAYERS
WHO DO THE SAME.. and now you say that Wayne is not
there so he is not the greatest. Are you that stupid?
Stop changing the issue..
> also notice that there is'nt a single scoring champ among this list
No reject? What the fuck is Lindros?
> > With the exception of Tocchet... has ANYONE in that
> > list been seriously injured for ANY extent of time?
> Gee, I guess you have'nt been following the career of Eric Lindros too
CHRONIC injuries moron ... like Orr's... you are
truly an idiot. I gave you a list of high
scoring players who play physical like you say Orr did.
I did that.. now you say that Lindros's minor injuies
are comparable to Orr's... stupid.
> well. How many times has he been on the injury list in his short
> career? Kirk Muller has been able to sustain his level play has'nt
> he?? Ask Toronto fans about the decline in Gilmour's level of play.
Gee too bad these guys have to have the AGE factor
included.. wimp Orr had to leave before his career
could even hit that stage. Too bad for you Orr
people.. you thihnk that he is a god.. that he could
have played like he did for the rest of his career.
That his skills would never have declined. Get a brain.
Skills decline with age. Orr is not exempt. If
I were the idiot you are... and Gretzky had ended his
career in 1987.. i woudl have said that Gretzky was
the greatest based on the fact that he woudl have
scored 200+ points for the rest of his career but
OHH OHH.. he got injured.
> Linden has had two great seasons in his career. Scott Stevens had a
> great year last year did'nt he?? as did Shayne Corson!!!
Hmmm... Linden? Last year? Second to Mogilny in team
scoring?
Stevens, spearheads team to cup last year.
Corson, right behind Gretzxky in playoff scoring?
OVER BRETT HULL.
You... in need of the lobotamy.
> But some idiot would still say you did'nt deserve it because some
> net-hanging, one way wimpy forward who was'nt even the best two-way
> player on his own team has 61 OFFENSIVE records.
Only sixty one? That's all.. oh... what kind of
idiot must that person be? I would shoot him
Heaven forbid... you have 61 NHL records and be
considered the greatest of all time in the same breath.
Get a life.
> Orr's injuries are a part of the game.
> Did I ever say this??? I think despite his injuries he was the
> greatest TWO-WAY hockey player ever!!!!!
OK OK OK ... FINE... TWO WAY PLAYER SURE. NOT THE
GREATEST HOCKEY PLAYER OF ALL TIME.
ONe last time: Pippen is the best two way player
in the NBA... Jordan is the best player in the game.
Now shutup.
> knee injuries are more serious. I have yet to make the argument that
> permature injury "equal greatest of all time".
Oh ya? Gee.. i have not pointed it out twice already.
Scroll up.. just what the hell are you talking about?
d
> > GET hit. It has been said by the best commentators..
> > they notice these things. Harry Neale was surprised
> Harry Neale??? If this imbecile knew anything about hockey he would be
> back coaching.>
Considering that he DOES NOT WANT TO COACH... it
just shows how stupid you really are.
> My what a brave boy he is!!! ONE injuy for 1/2 season - Maybe he
> should get a Congressional Medal of Honour!!
Only a dick like you would think that an injury
makes you a good player.. or that an injury makes
you brave. "Oh no.. i never said that." Oh, just look
above.
> I think the fact you can remember every hit Wayne has ever taken and
> the fact that this rather 'extensive' list covers over a 5 year period
> proves my point.
No my point.. you are dumb. Injuries are not a criteria
for the best player in teh world. SO GET OFF IT.
> I hate to burst your little bubble but you refer to athlete of the
> decade - as determined by who?? and anyway, which decade- Orr and Hull
> did'nt play in the 80's or 90's. Neither did Ruth, Howe, Pele etc.
RIGHT.. did they win it in their eras? NO..
Dumb dee dumb dee dumb de de dumb.
> Anyway was'nt this supposed to be about greatest of all-time?? not
> just one decade!! If you are talking about most recognizable athlete,
Yes greatest of all time. Listen..if you are going
to continue to be this stupid.. then i just do
not want to disucss this anymore. 10 yeras is
a BLOODY long time to dominate a sport like no other
player in the history of any sport. Get over it.
Sameer Sehdev
Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
is the best player in the history of the game.
Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
efdo...@nyc.pipeline.com
On Aug 13, 1996 08:12:10 in article <Re: Comparing Gretzky with Bobby
Hull>, 'sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta)' wrote:
>alt.sports.hockey.nhl.boston-bruins,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.buffalo-sabres,alt.spo
>rts.hockey.nhl.chat,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.chi-blackhawks,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.c
>lgry-flames,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.dallas-stars,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.det-redwing
>s,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.edm-oilers,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.hford-whalers,alt.sport
>s.hockey.nhl.la-kings,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.mtl-canadiens,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.
>nj-devils,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.ny-islanders,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.ny-rangers
Neil Polo
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:08:54 +0800 Steve Ranta wrote:
>How quickly people forget! There have been lots of 'goon' squads, and the
>late 1960s Bruins were among the most violent of all. I think you would
>have trouble finding a worse goon even on the Flyers than Ted Green, for
>example.
The Big Bad Bruins were tough, and certainly near the limits of the
definition of "intimidation" in a contact sport. But the Broad Street
Bullies were obscene, and used highly orchestrated brawling as a
tactic to cover up for an overall lack of talent. People in New
England *said* that Ted Green was insane (didn't he have a plate in
his head?), but everyone *knew* Dave Schultz was nuts. Finally, if I
remember "Bob and Carrol, Ted anD allas" well, Orr could play the game
any way he wanted but did NOT seek out a fight or a hard hit, Vadnais
was below average in physical play, and Dallas played physical but
caught more punches than he threw. So did Teddy toward the end, too
<g>!
Regards,
Neil
efdo...@nyc.pipeline.com
On Aug 13, 1996 08:08:54 in article <Re: Comparing Gretzky with Bobby
Joe Joseph
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
Please check the records -I may be wrong but I think Bossy's Islanders
had as many cups as Gretzky's Oilers. Don't forget that the Oilers won
one of their cups without Wimpy Wayne( "Please ban fighting-Semenko is
out of the league and I don't know who to hide behind!!").
Joe Joseph
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>Joe Joseph wrote:
>> It is obvious that lobotomy can't come fast enough since it is
>> affecting your reading skills. I have yet to use Bobby's injuries as
>> an excuse. Despite those injuries, his numbers and achievements can
> You didn't? So why does that word come up in this
> thread so many times? Do I bring it up? Hmm..no.
> I do not think so...
Imbecile: YES you brought it up - NOONE on this thread used his
injuries as an EXCUSE - as I stated, his achievements stand on their
own DESPITE his injuries.Yet you keep insisting that someone is using
his injuries as an excuse. I guess those "English As A Second
Language" courses did'nt help you much.
>> stand on their own. The defencemen you named have yet to match his
>> achievements despite their better health - 2 scoring titles and a year
>> when his +/- exceeded 120!!!- while spending 100+ minutes in the
> I did NOT say he was not great. The point is,
> he is NOT the greatEST to play the game. You want
> to bring up stats obviously... allow me to point
> out that this would be a GROSS mistake on your part as
> I will quash your 3 stats with dozens in favour of
> Gretzky.
PLEASE read my original post. It is obvious that you have never played
hockey. There are two aspects to the game - offense and defense.
Gretzky (or possibly Mario ) is the greatest OFFENSIVE player of
all-time. However he did not play great defense. Orr who played
defense, also excelled at OFFENSE. To be considered the "Greatest" in
my opinion, requires being able to excel at both aspects. Bobby won 2
scoring titles as a DEFENCEMAN. And most other years he was second to
teammate Phil Esposito. This is a feat not accomplished by any other
defenceman in the history of the game. The Selke Trophy is awarded to
the best defensive forward - Wayne has never won this. The Norris
Trophy is awarded to the best defenceman - Bobby won this something
like 8 times. So Offence + Defense = Orr not Wayne. Further if you
actually played the game, you would know that defense is a much harder
position to play than forward. Orr was also one of the two fastest
skaters of his era (with Cournoyer) - something no-one has attributed
to Wayne. When it comes to all-around hockey skills, there is no
comparison. Bobby is #1.
>> penalty box because he had to take care of ALL the business on the
>> ice- not just the scoring aspect like Wimpy Wayne. It is obvious that
> Hooo oh ya. He took care of all the business alright.
> Just thought i would let you know that the name
> "Big Bad" in front of Bruins did not solely fall in
> front of ORR's name. There were a FEW more players
> playing that style on the team. As if Orr was the
> the saviour physically for Boston. What a crock.
>
Please take a look at his PIM's. I did not say "Orr was the saviour
physically for Boston" you illiterate buffoon. I said that unlike
Wayne, he could take care of himself.
>> you have not seen a real hockey game in your life or else you would
>> realize there are two aspects to the game - offence and defence. One
>> can't be the greatest unless he excels at both aspects. Bobby did,
> How dumb can you get? How many times did the
> opposition have the puck when Wayne's line was on
> the ice bucko? Not too often.
Please compare the goals against average for Orr's Bruin teams with
the Oilers. Who had the puck for all those goals you moron. Oh since
Wayne controlled the puck so much I guess he must have also scored for
the opposition??!!
Who went 16-0 in
> the playoffs (forgot which year) to claim the cup?
Never happened bud!! Must be that ceap stuff you smoke.
> Ooohh.. that's what i thought. Who was the main reason
> for this? Gretzky. Who holds the most records? Gretzky
> who holds the most scoring titles.. Gretzky. Who does
> the world recognize as the athelete of the decade?
> Wayne Gretzky. Bobby who?
I guess if you define Gretzky fans as the "the world" you would be
right. The rest of the world would pick Jordan. Considering Bobby
played his last game in 1976, if he was the athlete of the decade now,
it truly would be a feat (I guess you did'nt do too well in history as
well as english in school).
>> Wayne did'nt. Argument over. If you want to claim Wayne is the
>> greatest offensive player or the greatest marketing tool - you may get
> Argument over for you: You say that Gretzky never
> excelled defensively? Wayne is a forward.. the best
> in the world. And you want him to play defence? Are
> you smoking crack? Listen... get this through: To
> say that Wayne was not good defensively shows just
> how stupid you really are. To say that Wayne was
> not good defensively means to say that Wayne was
> a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. Now, crackhead... when Wayne
> stepped onto the ice.. was Sather worried? Did he
> say.. oh no... Wayne "Defensive Liability" Gretzky
> is on.. better get some wicked defence out there to
> save us. No.. because Gretzky always had the puck.
> If you had a brain.. you woudl see this.
Please see above. It is also obvious that you never truly saw Orr
play. If you did, you would know he controlled the puck far more often
in a game than Gretzky. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the
subject. Buy the Orr video for starters.
> Gretzky's defensive game has become poorer thanx
> to a decline in skills and speed. AGE.
>> an argument from Mario fans but not from me. None of the defencemen
> I am a Mario fan cheif and i am in favour of Gretzky
> in this one.
What is a "fan cheif"????
>> you named had to have 3 knee surgeries like Orr, so your comparison
>> against them is meaningless.
>>
> STUPID: Did you just not say that you had not
> used Injuries as an excuse? Did i not say
> that you did... HERE IS THE PROOF. You do
> it without even noticing it.
No you poor retarded fool, I was suggesting that if you wanted to call
Bobby a wimp vis-a-vis these defensemen, you would have to see if they
had the guts to come back after these types of injuries. In an earlier
post, I also pointed out the rule changes instituted by the league to
protect its stars since Orr's days (including hitting from behind
etc.).
>> What Gary Suter and Doug Gilmour did to Gretzky is part of the game-
>> it is called checking. There was nothing dirty about it-I watched both
>> games. It is just you Ice Capade loving Gretzky Wimps that think the
> God help you. Gary Suter cleanly HIT Gretzky?
> Go watch it again. It was an illegal cross check
> from BEHINd. I HAVE IT on tape.
Please! There was nothing wrong with it. Watch your tape BEFORE
smoking up.
>> poor lad should be allowed to do whatever he wants. Once in a great
> He has been taking hits like crazy in the past season.
> Did you happen to notice that he was the points leader
> for both teams he played for this season? Did you
> happen to notice that even after taking all those
> hits he still led the blues in scoring? Did you notice
> that you are the one needing the lobotamy.
Hull had 83 points for St. Louis, Gretzky had 21 points for St. Louis
and Gretzky led them in scoring??? - must be the new math!!!
>> while he is actually exposed to true hockey and can't hide behind
>> Messier or Semenko or McSorely.
> Like he did in St.Louis when he led the team in scoring
> in the playoffs and extended heavily favoured Detroit
> to overtime of the 7th game?
What is the relevance of this? Juneau led Washington in scoring in the
playoffs where they lost the longest game in playoff history so what
does this prove???
>> Howe. When was Wayne's last fight?? I pity the person who had to
> Let me get this straight.. your idea of the best
> player in the world should have fighting as part
> of his agenda? Before we drill that hole in your
> head... boxing is the sport you should be watching.
> Not hockey.
No you dumb twat, I was saying that Orr could take care of himself and
did not need to hide behind others.
>> > Oh.. so you mean he played like Eric Lindros... Doug
>> > Gilmour, Shayne Corson, Kirk Muller, Brendan Shanahan,
>> > Mark Messier, Trevor Linden, Scott Stevens, Rick
>> > Tocchet, Chris Chelios, and Gary Suter?
>> I notice that Wayne's name is conspicuosly absent from this list. I
> THAT's BECAUSE HE's A HOCKEY PLAYER NOT A BOXER.
> You have got a screw loose up there. First you say
> that Orr was so bloody amazing because he had to take
> care of himself and play a physical game just at the
> same time as scoring..
But Wayne is not on your list. Physical play is a part of real hockey.
I GAVE YOU A LIST OF PLAYERS
> WHO DO THE SAME.. and now you say that Wayne is not
> there so he is not the greatest. Are you that stupid?
NONE of the players you mentioned can come close to Orr's
achievements. Orr could play physically and still play at a higher
level than these guys. I did not say there were NO players who play
physically these days. However, I will say that the overall level of
physical play was greater in the seventies.
> Stop changing the issue..
>> also notice that there is'nt a single scoring champ among this list
> No reject? What the fuck is Lindros?
I stand corrected. Total scoring champs in your list=1, scoring champs
as defensemen=0, Bobby Orr =2.
>> > With the exception of Tocchet... has ANYONE in that
>> > list been seriously injured for ANY extent of time?
>> Gee, I guess you have'nt been following the career of Eric Lindros too
> CHRONIC injuries moron ... like Orr's... you are
> truly an
I gave you a list of high
> scoring players who play physical like you say Orr did.
> I did that.. now you say that Lindros's minor injuies
> are comparable to Orr's... stupid.
I hate to tell you this but I think you are proving my point. Those
who play physically get hurt. I may also add Gilmour's back injuries
to that list as well. I would also challenge your inclusion of Corson
(46pts.) and Stevens(28pts.) as consistent high-scoring players.
W.R.T. Lindros, the guy has been on the IR at least 5 times in his
short career. In terms of your argument, which is it? Are Lindros'
injuries "like Orr's" or are they "minor injuries"? It is tough to
argue with you when you take both sides.
>> well. How many times has he been on the injury list in his short
>> career? Kirk Muller has been able to sustain his level play has'nt
>> he?? Ask Toronto fans about the decline in Gilmour's level of play.
> Gee too bad these guys have to have the AGE factor
> included.. wimp Orr had to leave before his career
> could even hit that stage. Too bad for you Orr
> people.. you thihnk that he is a god.. that he could
> have played like he did for the rest of his career.
> That his skills would never have declined. Get a brain.
> Skills decline with age. Orr is not exempt. If
> I were the idiot you are... and Gretzky had ended his
> career in 1987.. i woudl have said that Gretzky was
> the greatest based on the fact that he woudl have
> scored 200+ points for the rest of his career but
> OHH OHH.. he got injured.
See above. DESPITE the fact that Orr was hurt, he had more scoring
titles than your list put together. In fact he had more runner-ups
than your list combined. NONE of the guys on your list come close to
his achievements (jury is still out on Lindros).
>> Linden has had two great seasons in his career. Scott Stevens had a
>> great year last year did'nt he?? as did Shayne Corson!!!
> Hmmm... Linden? Last year? Second to Mogilny in team
> scoring?
Exactly- this was one of his two great seasons and he scored all of 80
pts.
> Stevens, spearheads team to cup last year.
>
I guess Colorado fans will be surprised to hear this. Of course if you
are referring to the year prior, I think Claude Lemieux was the
playoff MVP.
> Corson, right behind Gretzxky in playoff scoring?
> OVER BRETT HULL.
I guess that says more about Hull than Corson.
> You... in need of the lobotamy.
If you are going to try to insult me at least have the decency to use
proper grammar and spelling....it is lobotomy.
>> But some idiot would still say you did'nt deserve it because some
>> net-hanging, one way wimpy forward who was'nt even the best two-way
>> player on his own team has 61 OFFENSIVE records.
> Only sixty one? That's all.. oh... what kind of
> idiot must that person be? I would shoot him
> Heaven forbid... you have 61 NHL records and be
> considered the greatest of all time in the same breath.
> Get a life.
You make it sound as if Orr does not hold any records of his own. You
also conveniently cut-out the bulk of my response to you on this
point. Orr's records offensive records are as impressive if not more
than gretzky's since they were done by a defenceman. Those who know
the game and have played the sport can truly appreciate what this
means.
>> Orr's injuries are a part of the game.
>
>> Did I ever say this??? I think despite his injuries he was the
>> greatest TWO-WAY hockey player ever!!!!!
> OK OK OK ... FINE... TWO WAY PLAYER SURE. NOT THE
> GREATEST HOCKEY PLAYER OF ALL TIME.
Then what is your definition of greatest???
> ONe last time: Pippen is the best two way player
> in the NBA... Jordan is the best player in the game.
> Now shutup.
You show as much ignorance of basketball as of hockey. Jordan is a
better two-way player than Pippen. Only you would even attempt to make
the claim you did. Pippen can guard slow-footed forwards while the
guards would blow by him. If the forwards tried to get by Jordan, his
speed would result in a steal. jordan can stay with the guards as
well. Both would be destroyed by taller men who could post-up. Even
Hakeem is a better two-way player than Pippen.
>> knee injuries are more serious. I have yet to make the argument that
>> permature injury "equal greatest of all time".
> Oh ya? Gee.. i have not pointed it out twice already.
> Scroll up.. just what the hell are you talking about?
>d
I think you should scroll up to see what was said.
>> > GET hit. It has been said by the best commentators..
>> > they notice these things. Harry Neale was surprised
>> Harry Neale??? If this imbecile knew anything about hockey he would be
>> back coaching.>
> Considering that he DOES NOT WANT TO COACH... it
> just shows how stupid you really are.
Gee, I guess that explains all the offers to Harry to coach - he must
be turning them down secretly and telling the media not to mention
anything about it.
>> My what a brave boy he is!!! ONE injuy for 1/2 season - Maybe he
>> should get a Congressional Medal of Honour!!
> Only a dick like you would think that an injury
> makes you a good player.. or that an injury makes
> you brave. "Oh no.. i never said that." Oh, just look
> above.
I guess you just have a problem with english comprehension. I did not
EVER state that "an injury makes you a good player". I just think that
the injury you mentioned, when compared to Orr's is a candy-assed
joke!!!
>> I think the fact you can remember every hit Wayne has ever taken and
>> the fact that this rather 'extensive' list covers over a 5 year period
>> proves my point.
> No my point.. you are dumb. Injuries are not a criteria
> for the best player in teh world. SO GET OFF IT.
Could someone apart from this brain-dead moron please tell me when
anyone said that injuries were a criteria for the best player in "teh"
world??
>> I hate to burst your little bubble but you refer to athlete of the
>> decade - as determined by who?? and anyway, which decade- Orr and Hull
>> did'nt play in the 80's or 90's. Neither did Ruth, Howe, Pele etc.
Sice you have yet to answer as to who annointed Wayne with this title,
I guess it would be hard to answer. You have also not stated what the
criteria was. You have not provided us with the list of who won in the
other decades.
> RIGHT.. did they win it in their eras? NO..
> Dumb dee dumb dee dumb de de dumb.
>> Anyway was'nt this supposed to be about greatest of all-time?? not
>> just one decade!! If you are talking about most recognizable athlete,
> Yes greatest of all time. Listen..if you are going
> to continue to be this stupid.. then i just do
> not want to disucss this anymore. 10 yeras is
> a BLOODY long time to dominate a sport like no other
> player in the history of any sport. Get over it.
Again just conveniently cut out most of the response. I am so
surprised. I do agree with you on one point - I too am sick of
discussing this point.
Charlene Rudeichuk
In article <321073...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
<sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Joe Joseph wrote:
> >
> > lo...@ix.netcom.com(bryan lotto) wrote:
> >
> > >no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
> > >WIN!!!!!
> > I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
> > think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he was
> > such a classy person.
>
>
> Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
> I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
> he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
> is the best player in the history of the game.
> Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
Who gives a damn how many cups Gretzky has . . . it's a team sport, and I
don't think he would have been able to win them by himself.
Charlene
Rich O'Brien
Certainly we won't fall below you ;-/.
> How many times did the
> opposition have the puck when Wayne's line was on
> the ice bucko? Not too often. Who went 16-0 in
> the playoffs (forgot which year) to claim the cup?
> Ooohh.. that's what i thought. Who was the main reason
> for this? Gretzky. Who holds the most records?
Records have nothing to do with being the greatest player ever.
> Gretzky
> who holds the most scoring titles.. Gretzky. Who does
> the world recognize as the athelete of the decade?
> Wayne Gretzky. Bobby who?
>
> > Wayne did'nt. Argument over. If you want to claim Wayne is the
> > greatest offensive player or the greatest marketing tool - you may get
>
>
> Argument over for you: You say that Gretzky never
> excelled defensively? Wayne is a forward.. the best
> in the world.
> And you want him to play defence?
YES! If you want to be even considered to be the greatest player ever you
better have a hell of a two-way game.
Orr is a defencemen, the best in the world.
And you want him to play offence?
What kind of statement are trying to make? Saying that Wayne was a
forward and didn't have to play defense is a complete display of how
unknowledgeable you are about hockey. What if Orr only did what his
position was supposed to do, play defense... we wouldn't even be having
this discussion. Why is there a double standard for playing offense
instead of defense.
Again, I say that the 'greatest player' criteria should be who would you
pick FIRST to put on your team?
> you smoking crack? Listen... get this through: To
> say that Wayne was not good defensively shows just
> how stupid you really are. To say that Wayne was
> not good defensively means to say that Wayne was
> a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. Now, crackhead... when Wayne
> stepped onto the ice.. was Sather worried? Did he
> say.. oh no... Wayne "Defensive Liability" Gretzky
> is on.. better get some wicked defence out there to
> save us. No.. because Gretzky always had the puck.
> If you had a brain.. you woudl see this.
Actually he did have to worry about Gretzky on the ice apparently... why
else would he put goons on his left and right?
> > while he is actually exposed to true hockey and can't hide behind
> > Messier or Semenko or McSorely.
>
> Like he did in St.Louis when he led the team in scoring
> in the playoffs and extended heavily favoured Detroit
> to overtime of the 7th game?
And what goal number was that for him in the playoffs? Who lost the series?
> > Orr's injuries are a part of the game.
>
>
> > Did I ever say this??? I think despite his injuries he was the
> > greatest TWO-WAY hockey player ever!!!!!
>
>
> OK OK OK ... FINE... TWO WAY PLAYER SURE. NOT THE
> GREATEST HOCKEY PLAYER OF ALL TIME.
>
> ONe last time: Pippen is the best two way player
> in the NBA... Jordan is the best player in the game.
> Now shutup.
How so? Jordan is better both offensively and defensively (if you want
stats, just look at the Defensive player of the year awards). How can one
even be considered the greatest for playing just ONE facet of a game when
their is two facets to be achieved? Okay, so perhaps Gretzky was a
superior offensive player to Orr, but Orr was much superior on defense and
quite excellent on offense as well... thus you admitted that Orr is the
best Two Way player. There you admitted it.
> > I think the fact you can remember every hit Wayne has ever taken and
> > the fact that this rather 'extensive' list covers over a 5 year period
> > proves my point.
> No my point.. you are dumb. Injuries are not a criteria
> for the best player in teh world. SO GET OFF IT.
I think the point is, he wouldn't be where he is without the help of those
certain others (his protectors). Whether or not he would have been
injured is irrelevant. The fact is that he played with these guys, and
profited from it. He was DEFINITELY NOT a one man crew. Orr, however,
survived by himself. Gretzky, on the other hand, other players aided his
greatness... thus not self-attained... how much of his success is due to
these other factors is immeasurable... thus making the point biased to
whomever the reader is.
Perhaps you should stop trying to insult people (it's rather annoying and
CHILDISH!) and speak more intelligibly to get your point across,
Rich O'Brien
jam...@mail.idt.net
=======================================================
Standing on a hill in a mountain of dreams
Telling myself it's not as hard... as hard as it seems.
=======================================================
Rich O'Brien
> Joe Joseph wrote:
> >
> > lo...@ix.netcom.com(bryan lotto) wrote:
> >
> > >no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
> > >WIN!!!!!
> > I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
> > think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he was
> > such a classy person.
>
>
> Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
> I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
> he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
> is the best player in the history of the game.
> Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
How many cups does Henri Richard have?
Andrew Chalupka
[ major snippage ]
...
<sigh> I thought people stopped playing "My Dad can beat up your Dad" when
they were 7. Oh well...carry on, you silly people.
Andrew
Joe Joseph
"Bernhardt G. Gademsky III" <ber...@iconn.net> wrote:
>uh...if your talking Stanley Cup rings here...Bossy has 4....just as many
>as Wayne!!!!!!!
>--
>Take care,
>Bernie Gademsky
>(ber...@iconn.net)
>Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote in article
><321073...@utoronto.ca>...
>> Joe Joseph wrote:
>> >
>> > lo...@ix.netcom.com(bryan lotto) wrote:
>> >
>> > >no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
>> > >WIN!!!!!
>> > I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
>> > think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he was
>> > such a classy person.
>>
>>
>> Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
>> I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
>> he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
>> is the best player in the history of the game.
>> Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
>>
I agree with you, but please note it was not me that said I liked
Wayne better because he won more cups. I am the one who said Bossy was
a classy guy. The snips etc. on your post can give the wrong
impression. Thanks.
Bernhardt G. Gademsky III
Steve Ranta
In article <rudeichuk-140...@hcc2138d.cstudies.sfu.ca>,
rude...@popserver.sfu.ca (Charlene Rudeichuk) wrote:
. . .
> Who gives a damn how many cups Gretzky has . . . it's a team sport, and I
> don't think he would have been able to win them by himself.
>
It may be significant that the Oilers won the cup soon after Gretzky left.
--
Steve Ranta
Paul Nahls
> > >no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
> > >WIN!!!!!
> > I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
> > think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he was
> > such a classy person.
>
>
> Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
> I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
> he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
> is the best player in the history of the game.
> Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
So are you not the SAME guy that argued that Larionov was among the best
in the history of the game and even went so far as to compare him to
Gretzky as well Sameer?
Also note that he is talking about Bossy, being Mike Bossy being the guy
that has 4 Stanley Cup Rings won in a 4 year stretch with the Islanders
at the start of the 80's....Gretzky has 4 as well
Now I am not defending this other guy's statement because Gretzky shows
more class than any of the guys he has mentioned, and gretzky is just
simply the best player as far as offensive numbers go in the history of
the game (give or take Mario Lemieux)
But the arguement that you have used against him is ineffective
rinkrat
Top Ten Reasons Why I Hate the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim:
10: They are from Anaheim! Behind the Orange curtain and home
to such weak franchises as the Rams and the Angels.
9: Their announcer is the worst in the NHL.. They don't shoot shot's
they shoot "lazer beams", they don't lose an edge, they "blow
a tire". And when they actually get a shot on goal, the guy
screams like it is overtime in game seven of the Stanley Cup!
8: Their fans are so lame that they actually have trivia on the
scoreboard like "How mand goals in a Hat Trick" (I kid you not).
7: On the rare occasion that they score a goal, who shows up but..
TINKER BELL!!
6: They have the worst ice in the NHL, which has been describes as
"skating in cement".
5: The fans actually show up at the forum wearing Ducks jerseys and
Kings Hats!! And they applaud when either team scores!! (we call
them cross-dressers)
4: Two words: WILD WING
3: They actually BOOED the greatest player of all time on national TV
(without whom there would be no Mighty Ducks)
2: I mean.. face it! THEY ARE CALLED THE MIGHTY DUCKS OF ANAHEIM!!
Named after a Disney movie.. and they play at the (sic) POND!!!
and the number one reason why I hate the Mighty Dorks..
1: Those GOD-DAMNED DUCK CALLS!!!!!
rinkrat's Hockey Links
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/6609/hockey.html
rinkrat
(Sorry if you saw this twice :)
Rinkrat's Hockey Links
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/6609/players.html
Tom O'Connor
Gordie Howe was the greatest player of all time. Pick him as the greatest
player of the century.
Paul Nahls
First thing's first.....Joe, don't bother arguing with this clown, he
doesn't know the first thing about hockey, next he will explain to you
that Rick Tocchet can't fight, Alexaner Mogilny is a goon and Igor
Larionov is the best player to ever live (literally that isn't even an
exageration)
He will then explain to you that you make a lot of mistakes and when you
prove him unconditionally wrong for 100 straight points he will say TWIST
TWIST TWIST because he has nothing else to say
He'll then refuse your e-mails saying you won't admit your errors, bet
you that Detroit will win the cup, laugh at you when you say Colorado
will beat Detroit and then win the cup, and change his e-mail address
when this and every single other prediction you make comes true so he
doesn't have to admit it...trust me, I speak from experience :)
Right Sammy?
> >> stand on their own. The defencemen you named have yet to match his
> >> achievements despite their better health - 2 scoring titles and a year
> >> when his +/- exceeded 120!!!- while spending 100+ minutes in the
Doug Harvey has the talent to match with Orr....I don't know who has been
mentioned to date though. Harvey has been heralded even by Don Cherry who
wants to have Bobby's children, as the best defensive defenceman of all
time and he won 7 Norris trophies himself
> PLEASE read my original post. It is obvious that you have never played
> hockey. There are two aspects to the game - offense and defense.
> Gretzky (or possibly Mario ) is the greatest OFFENSIVE player of
> all-time. However he did not play great defense. Orr who played
> defense, also excelled at OFFENSE. To be considered the "Greatest" in
> my opinion, requires being able to excel at both aspects. Bobby won 2
> scoring titles as a DEFENCEMAN. And most other years he was second to
> teammate Phil Esposito. This is a feat not accomplished by any other
> defenceman in the history of the game. The Selke Trophy is awarded to
> the best defensive forward - Wayne has never won this. The Norris
> Trophy is awarded to the best defenceman - Bobby won this something
> like 8 times. So Offence + Defense = Orr not Wayne. Further if you
> actually played the game, you would know that defense is a much harder
> position to play than forward. Orr was also one of the two fastest
> skaters of his era (with Cournoyer) - something no-one has attributed
> to Wayne. When it comes to all-around hockey skills, there is no
> comparison. Bobby is #1.
Actually I have to disagree with you to an extent here....Gretzky may not
have been great defensively but when you score 3 points on an average
night and have 1 scored against you, it is just as good as scoring 2 and
having none scored against you, hockey is a game of outscoring your
opponents. Wayne has little physical stature and has soooooo damned much
talent that he manages to be the greatest even without it.
Bobby Orr was great, no question, but I still have to say that Wayne is
the Greatest.....maybe not all-around but Mike Tyson for example can't
dance but if he gets the job done who cares?
(I'll leave Mario Lemieux out of this because his injuries quite frankly
kept us from knowing for certain if he would have bested Gretz I
personally think he would have)
> Please take a look at his PIM's. I did not say "Orr was the saviour
> physically for Boston" you illiterate buffoon. I said that unlike
> Wayne, he could take care of himself.
> >> you have not seen a real hockey game in your life or else you would
> >> realize there are two aspects to the game - offence and defence. One
> >> can't be the greatest unless he excels at both aspects. Bobby did,
This guy thinks Bourque is a crummy defenceman and Shanahan and Tocchet
can't fight.....don't even give him that much credit
> > Ooohh.. that's what i thought. Who was the main reason
> > for this? Gretzky. Who holds the most records? Gretzky
> > who holds the most scoring titles.. Gretzky. Who does
> > the world recognize as the athelete of the decade?
> > Wayne Gretzky. Bobby who?
> I guess if you define Gretzky fans as the "the world" you would be
> right. The rest of the world would pick Jordan. Considering Bobby
> played his last game in 1976, if he was the athlete of the decade now,
> it truly would be a feat (I guess you did'nt do too well in history as
> well as english in school).
Actually Wayne Gretzky has been named athlete of the decade for the 80's
Sports Illustrated named him so...Jordan was not the one in the 80's
Wayne Gretzky has also been widely acknowledged as the greatest player in
professional team sports history....just letting you know.
But...also Orr wasn't playing in the 80's so it's a useless point between
the two anyway
> > save us. No.. because Gretzky always had the puck.
> > If you had a brain.. you woudl see this.
To be honest, the beauty of Gretzky's game was that he never had the
puck, that is why you couldn't defend against him
Cmon Sammy you are supposed to be the champion of the Russians
That is why they do so well, because they play well when they don't have
the puck. Gretzky's game was patterend after the game the Russians were
playing at the time, and he improved it. He was described in his game by
one of the Russian coaches and I think it sums him up perfectly.
"He is nearly invisible out there, he seems to come out of nowhere, pass
to nowhere and there is a goal."
Gretz excelled at sitting off to the side way out of the play, he'd see
what was happening and go to where the puck was going to be, not to where
it was, he'd head it off at the pass and do what he had to do with
it...Orr tended to rag the puck more.
> >> What Gary Suter and Doug Gilmour did to Gretzky is part of the game-
> >> it is called checking. There was nothing dirty about it-I watched both
> >> games. It is just you Ice Capade loving Gretzky Wimps that think the
> > God help you. Gary Suter cleanly HIT Gretzky?
> > Go watch it again. It was an illegal cross check
> > from BEHINd. I HAVE IT on tape.
> Please! There was nothing wrong with it. Watch your tape BEFORE
> smoking up.
I have to disagree fully here, Suter cross checked Gretzky from behind
and it was worthy of a major penalty in any league. I also have the tape
but won't use that as an arguement, I am just saying that there is
absolutley no question that the hit was blatantly illegal, whether he
intended to injure Gretzky or not I highly doubt, because it is a game of
professionals and it was an international tourney to boot, in the heat of
the moment he just got him too poorly.
> > He has been taking hits like crazy in the past season.
> > Did you happen to notice that he was the points leader
> > for both teams he played for this season? Did you
> > happen to notice that even after taking all those
> > hits he still led the blues in scoring? Did you notice
> > that you are the one needing the lobotamy.
St. Louis had nothing and hey Sammy, you were the one attacking Gretzky a
few months ago...remember? Saying how great larionov is and how he will
lead the Wings to the promised land that the goon without talent (Steve
Yzerman) couldn't lead them to....and Gretzky ruined the Blues etc?
BTW I argued this with Sammy months ago.
> Hull had 83 points for St. Louis, Gretzky had 21 points for St. Louis
> and Gretzky led them in scoring??? - must be the new math!!!
Gretzky lead them in scoring while he was there....it was a valid point.
> No you dumb twat, I was saying that Orr could take care of himself and
> did not need to hide behind others.
So? Probert can handle himself too (shrug) Orr was rescued many times and
didn't play with wimps...he had the big bad Bruins of the 70's it opens
room for ya.
> >> > Oh.. so you mean he played like Eric Lindros... Doug
> >> > Gilmour, Shayne Corson, Kirk Muller, Brendan Shanahan,
> >> > Mark Messier, Trevor Linden, Scott Stevens, Rick
> >> > Tocchet, Chris Chelios, and Gary Suter?
HEHEHEHE THIS IS CLASSIC :)
Sammy argued and argued this list with me for months and said they were
not fighters.....looks like he has used my EXACT list to prove the
opposite now claiming they are goons....what a putz :)
BTW Gilmour and Suter weren't on my list though, nor was Linden
> NONE of the players you mentioned can come close to Orr's
> achievements. Orr could play physically and still play at a higher
> level than these guys. I did not say there were NO players who play
> physically these days. However, I will say that the overall level of
> physical play was greater in the seventies.
Ok Richard and Howe could both kick Orr's ass in both departments
> I hate to tell you this but I think you are proving my point. Those
He's good at that Joe
Watch, now he'll say it was his point all along and you can't admit defeat
> See above. DESPITE the fact that Orr was hurt, he had more scoring
> titles than your list put together. In fact he had more runner-ups
> than your list combined. NONE of the guys on your list come close to
> his achievements (jury is still out on Lindros).
I hate to break this to you but Bobby Orr never played against Mario
Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky even for one season.....there's only been 3
people to win the scoring title in the past 17 years
If you want to talk titles btw.....count Wayne's Count the hart
trophies...you added Norris trophies for best D man...now count trophies
for best PLAYER
> > Stevens, spearheads team to cup last year.
You argued this point with me for months Sammy...geez you are using all
of my arguements that were against you, in your favour now :)
> I guess Colorado fans will be surprised to hear this. Of course if you
> are referring to the year prior, I think Claude Lemieux was the
> playoff MVP.
Actually I will go to my grave fighting that one, I still say Scott
Stevens was far and away the MVP that season. The reason that the Devils
won was because no one could get the puck over their blue line....
It's hard to score when your team doesn't even hit double digits in shots
on goal
> point. Orr's records offensive records are as impressive if not more
> than gretzky's since they were done by a defenceman. Those who know
> the game and have played the sport can truly appreciate what this
> means.
They are defensive records though...they kinda have to be done by a
defenseman...Hextall holds severl offensive records for goalies
too....wouldn't consider him the best though
> You show as much ignorance of basketball as of hockey. Jordan is a
> better two-way player than Pippen. Only you would even attempt to make
> the claim you did. Pippen can guard slow-footed forwards while the
> guards would blow by him. If the forwards tried to get by Jordan, his
> speed would result in a steal. jordan can stay with the guards as
> well. Both would be destroyed by taller men who could post-up. Even
> Hakeem is a better two-way player than Pippen.
Jordan has won Defensive Player of the year a few times...I won't even
start on that comment.
> >> I think the fact you can remember every hit Wayne has ever taken and
> >> the fact that this rather 'extensive' list covers over a 5 year period
> >> proves my point.
Proves to me that Wayne is better....don't get hit, don't get hurt...the
object in hockey is to hit or don't be hit
Getting hit isn't a good thing...
> >> I hate to burst your little bubble but you refer to athlete of the
> >> decade - as determined by who?? and anyway, which decade- Orr and Hull
> >> did'nt play in the 80's or 90's. Neither did Ruth, Howe, Pele etc.
Wayne Gretzky was awarded the Athlete of the decade by sports illustrated
and every other publication that deals with sports, he has won the award,
this is not made up
> Sice you have yet to answer as to who annointed Wayne with this title,
> I guess it would be hard to answer. You have also not stated what the
> criteria was. You have not provided us with the list of who won in the
> other decades.
The other decades are not readily available but no other hockey player
has ever won the title....
I believe Ali won it in the 70's don't quote me on that though
I'll cut out now.....I disagree with Joe, I think Orr fails in comparison
to Gretzky. Sam, you still have no idea about anyhting that goes on in
the sport, or at least not enough to battle the finer points but I am
glad to see that you managed to read what I was saying before and learn a
little bit about it.
I'm not trying to be arrogant here, but I have fought long with this guy
and he has made some pretty amusing statements in the past
Steve Ranta
In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.960817...@server.uwindsor.ca>,
Paul Nahls <na...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
. . .
> The other decades are not readily available but no other hockey player
> has ever won the title....
> I believe Ali won it in the 70's don't quote me on that though. . .
That just goes to show you how ridiculous the award is. Ali was good in
the 1960s, but his 'invisible punch' victory against Liston made it clear
that winning a title fight was no guarantee of being the best fighter.
But Ali was obviously not even the best heavyweight in the 1970s once you
subtract the marketing, media hype, and the inevitable questionable
decisions.
That award is a marketing gimmick, nothing more.
--
Steve Ranta
Doug McLauchlan
"Michael F. Hynes" <hy...@acs.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
>By the way soccer is the biggest sport in the world, and the world
>cup is the biggest sporting event in the world (yes, bigger than
>the Olympics). To pretend otherwise is to be a parochial
>ostrich. And you would get far less argument from soccer fans
>that Pele was the greatest than you are getting on your Gretzky
>crusade.
This may indeed be true, but it's also one of the most painfully
boring and dull ways to make 2 hours seem like 8! In fact, it
wouldn't be worth bothering to show up for without the promise of
being able to witness a brawl/riot breaking out in some part of the
stands.
This is a newsgroup dedicated to discussing hockey. Please stay on
topic and restrict discussions of soccer, cricket, lawn-bowling, dwarf
tossing, rugby, possum launching, and other fitfully dull undertakings
to the appropriate areas.
Soccer! Get serious!
Doug
Fan
sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
>In article <rudeichuk-140...@hcc2138d.cstudies.sfu.ca>,
>rude...@popserver.sfu.ca (Charlene Rudeichuk) wrote:
>. . .
>> Who gives a damn how many cups Gretzky has . . . it's a team sport, and I
>> don't think he would have been able to win them by himself.
>> It's only a game and different eras as well as positions played.
In Chicago Hull was surrounded by a great supporting cast.
Same with Gretzky
No doubt on the all time list Gretzky will rank higher than HUll for
the many obvious reasons.
I myself think Hull was the better player.
Joe Joseph
Paul Nahls <na...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
>> Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >Joe Joseph wrote:
Paul, you wrote some interesting things in your post. I don't agree
with all of them, but at least they were presented reasonably. I would
love to debate them with you but frankly, arguing with Sameer has been
so frustrating, I have vowed to stay silent on the topic until the
start of the hockey season. Just some thoughts in passing though:
- Sports Illustrated- isn't that the same publication that ranked
Billie Jean King as the 5th. most influential person in sports over
the last 40 years (and Dr. J as #40)????
- Yes Richard could have beaten-up Orr, but he could not have caught
him. Bobby did handle Gordie at the start of his career.
I agree with you as far as Stevens & The Devils re. playoff MVP but
could not resist calling Sameer on the "foot fault".
The Oilers actually had an avg. of 4 goals (3.74) scored against them
in their run of cups vs. 2.73 against the Bruins in the best 5 year
run of Orr's career. Just an illustration of the way that defense has
been de-emphasized. In fact in 1983-84 all ten teams in the Oilers'
conference surrendered 300+ goals (in 1985-86 9 of 10 teams). So some
of the offensive output must be discounted to poor overall defensive
talent.
I promise this is the last post from me on this topic (unless someone
else gets me really pissed-off). Thanks.
Joe Joseph
Paul Nahls <na...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
To all those who are following this thread:
I compared Orr to Gretzky - I don't ever recall anyone comparing
Larionov to Gretzky. I also happen to think Mike Bossy is one of the
classiest and talented players in the history of the game. Joe.
Benjamin Ing
> Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
Great argument! This makes Mark Messier greater than Gretzky, because he
not only helped Gretzky win all his cups, he also won one after Gretz left
Edmonton, AND one with the Rangers....
Ben
Kelly Fitzpatrick
lt.sports.hockey.nhl.edm-oilers,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.hford-whalers,
alt.sports.hockey.nhl.la-kings,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.mtl-canadiens,
alt.sports.hockey.nhl.nj-devils,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.ny-islanders,
alt.sports.hockey.nhl.ny-rangers:
Followup-To: alt.sports.hockey.nhl.boston-bruins,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.buffalo-sabres,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.chat,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.chi-blackhawks,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.clgry-flames,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.dallas-stars,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.det-redwings,
alt.sports.hockey.nhl.edm-oilers,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.hford-whalers,
alt.sports.hockey.nhl.la-kings,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.mtl-canadiens,
alt.sports.hockey.nhl.nj-devils,alt.sports.hockey.nhl.ny-islanders,
alt.sports.hockey.nhl.ny-rangers:
References: <sranta-0308...@van-pm-0418.direct.ca> <sranta-0308...@van-pm-0513.direct.ca> <4u19rm$n...@news.istar.ca> <sranta-0408...@van-pm-0301.direct.ca> <320513...@utoronto.ca> <4uae97$e...@news.inforamp.net> <320BA9A6.35B
6...@utoronto.ca> <4ugnr3$m...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4uodja$3...@news.inforamp.net> <321073...@utoronto.ca> <rudeichuk-140...@hcc2138d.cstudies.sfu.ca> <sranta-1608...@van-as-10a02.direct.ca> <4v8cgo$a...@cheatum.frontiernet.net>
Distribution:
I haven't followed the whole thread, so this may have been raised
previously, but, IMHO, Hull had a greater total impact on the sport. He
introduced and popularized the blazing slap shot. He pioneered the hooked
stick (later legislated down to a gentler curve). He led the way to a
trend toward *bigger* players. And of course, he popularized male pattern
baldness...
--
Kelly Fitzpatrick
"I read the newspaper avidly. It's my one form
of continuous fiction." -Aneurin Bevan
KRYPTON
I could not agree more!!!!!
Next the Dorks will have Anita Bryant or Marie Osmond as a spokesmodel.
I heard Wonder Bread will be a major DORKS sponsor next season.
Sameer Sehdev
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote in article
<01bb8eda$912ed1c0$0b3e...@shell.ionsys.com>...
> Your point is still unclear. I agreed with you that you could say
> Orr was the greatset two way player if you wanted to, but the
> term TWO WAY player is equal to: most complete player.
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
OOPS!! that should have read, "...but the term TWO
WAY player is NOT equal to: most complete player.
Sameer Sehdev
Rich O'Brien <jam...@mail.idt.net> wrote in article
<james14-1508...@ppp-40.ts-1.mlb.idt.net>...
> In article <321073...@utoronto.ca>, Sameer Sehdev
> <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> > Joe Joseph wrote:
> > >
> > > lo...@ix.netcom.com(bryan lotto) wrote:
> > >
> > > >no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
> > > >WIN!!!!!
> > > I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
> > > think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he
was
> > > such a classy person.
> >
> >
> > Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
> > I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
> > he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
> > is the best player in the history of the game.
> > Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
>
> How many cups does Henri Richard have?
> Rich O'Brien
> jam...@mail.idt.net
Certainly the number of cups a player has is more a determining
factor for greatest player than is the fact that he is classy.
That is my point. And secondly, Richard, for other reasons (namely
in a league with more a chance to win ie. 6 teams) cannot be
considered the greatest of all time solely based on his number of
championships. How many records does he hold? How many cups would he
have won in a 21 or 26 team league?
Sameer Sehdev
Joe Joseph <jojo...@livgroup.com> wrote in article
<4v20mk$d...@news.inforamp.net>...
> "Bernhardt G. Gademsky III" <ber...@iconn.net> wrote:
>
> >uh...if your talking Stanley Cup rings here...Bossy has 4....just as
many
> >as Wayne!!!!!!!
> >--
> >Take care,
> >Bernie Gademsky
> >(ber...@iconn.net)
>
> >Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote in article
> ><321073...@utoronto.ca>...
> >> Joe Joseph wrote:
> >> >
> >> > lo...@ix.netcom.com(bryan lotto) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
> >> > >WIN!!!!!
> >> > I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
> >> > think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he
was
> >> > such a classy person.
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
> >> I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
> >> he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
> >> is the best player in the history of the game.
> >> Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
> >>
> I agree with you, but please note it was not me that said I liked
> Wayne better because he won more cups. I am the one who said Bossy was
> a classy guy. The snips etc. on your post can give the wrong
> impression. Thanks.
>
>
No perspiration (or problems :))
Sameer Sehdev
Tom O'Connor <toco...@cyberramp.net> wrote in article
<01bb8cb1$963e83c0$7352...@toconnor.cyberramp>...
>
> Gordie Howe was the greatest player of all time. Pick him as the
greatest
> player of the century.
>
>
Again... it is stupid comments like that that drag this debate
on forever. If you are going to say something BACK IT UP.
emp...@villagenet.com
Melissa and Victor Libby <mvzl...@zola.trend1.com> wrote:
>This debate sure has been keeping me on the edge of my seat...
>I know that I echo the thoughts of many in the Wings newsgroup that
>Gordie Howe was better than both those guys...plus he's got that
>hilarious SportsCenter commercial going for him.
>Victor Libby
>Wings in 97...please!
I agree with you about the commercial. All the rest is left to
opinion. IMHO you just have to count the # of personal records and the
man with the most wins. Who might that be? d:-)
Bill Kirk
Sameer Sehdev wrote:
>
> Joe Joseph wrote:
> >
> > lo...@ix.netcom.com(bryan lotto) wrote:
> >
> > >no ARGUMENT...YOU CAN HAVE ORR AND GRETZKY......GIVE ME BOSSY AND I
> > >WIN!!!!!
> > I too would rather have Bossy than Wayne. But over Bobby - I don't
> > think so. Bossy is one of my favourite forwards of all-time and he was
> > such a classy person.
>
> Oh great.. such a classy person.. who has the rings?
> I do not care if Gretzky murdered 76 people... if
> he wins the cups and keeps breaking records.. he
> is the best player in the history of the game.
> Oh.. how many cups did orr have? How many for Gretzky?
Then Henri Richard, not Maurice, must be the best player because he's been on the most
cup champions.
Also, Messier must be the better of the two former Oilers because he's won 6 cups to
Wayne's 4. Could it be that the Oilers won because of Messier style rather than Gretz's?
That can't be right because all that counts is offense according to you.
To the Bossy contingent, it was Trottier who stired that drink, not to take anything
away from Bossy.
--
Bill Kirk "For improvement there must be change;
bc...@earthlink.net however, not all change is improvement"
Corner of Jack Benny & Rochester
Cucamonga, CA
Mark Kappe
Sameer Sehdev wrote:
> >
> > How many cups does Henri Richard have?
> > Rich O'Brien
> > jam...@mail.idt.net
>
> Certainly the number of cups a player has is more a determining
> factor for greatest player than is the fact that he is classy.
> That is my point. And secondly, Richard, for other reasons (namely
> in a league with more a chance to win ie. 6 teams) cannot be
> considered the greatest of all time solely based on his number of
> championships. How many records does he hold? How many cups would he
> have won in a 21 or 26 team league?
I fail to follow the argument that states that playing in a 6-team league
is easier than playing in a 26 team league. The number of quality
players on any given team was drastically higher when the talent pool was
divided amongst 6 teams rather than 26... although that doesn't factor in
the Russians. FYI, Henri won 9 cups in 10 years; I would think that a
7-game series between the 1922 Canadiens and the 1986 Oilers would be a
phenomenal joy to watch, regardless of who won...
Let's do lunch!
In <321782...@popd.ix.netcom.com> rinkrat
<#rin...@popd.ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>Top Ten Reasons Why I Hate the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim:
>
>10: They are from Anaheim! Behind the Orange curtain and home
>to such weak franchises as the Rams and the Angels.
>
>9: Their announcer is the worst in the NHL.. They don't shoot shot's
> they shoot "lazer beams", they don't lose an edge, they "blow
> a tire". And when they actually get a shot on goal, the guy
> screams like it is overtime in game seven of the Stanley Cup!
>
>8: Their fans are so lame that they actually have trivia on the
> scoreboard like "How mand goals in a Hat Trick" (I kid you not).
>
>7: On the rare occasion that they score a goal, who shows up but..
> TINKER BELL!!
>
>6: They have the worst ice in the NHL, which has been describes as
> "skating in cement".
>
>5: The fans actually show up at the forum wearing Ducks jerseys and
> Kings Hats!! And they applaud when either team scores!! (we call
> them cross-dressers)
>
>4: Two words: WILD WING
>
>3: They actually BOOED the greatest player of all time on national TV
> (without whom there would be no Mighty Ducks)
>
>2: I mean.. face it! THEY ARE CALLED THE MIGHTY DUCKS OF ANAHEIM!!
> Named after a Disney movie.. and they play at the (sic) POND!!!
>
>and the number one reason why I hate the Mighty Dorks..
>
>1: Those GOD-DAMNED DUCK CALLS!!!!!
>
>
agreed 100%! And those stupis cheerleaders! If they got naked it would
be cool though.
Tom O'Connor
emp...@villagenet.com wrote in article <4vivsl$i...@villagenet.com>...
Records have a lot to do with the team you are on and a whole lot
of other logistics also (Like # of game in the year, giving assists for
just touching the puck, and styles of hockey) There is no way Gretsky
could have scored as many points playing under the same condition
Gordie Howe played. He probably wouldlnt have played as many
years as he has either.
Tom O'Connor
Sameer Sehdev <sameer...@utoronto.ca> wrote in article
<01bb906f$8566d860$133e...@shell.ionsys.com>...
> If you new anything about hockey -- YOU wouldn't make stupid comments
like
this. Obviously you never actually saw Gordie Howe play, or your ignorance
wouldnt be so obvious. Todays hockey has changed -- the number of games
they
play in a season, the number of teams (read less talent to go around), the
changes
to the rules so whiners like Wayne are happy, break-away goal posts (try
driving for
the net when you know the posts wont move), giving the last two players who
even
touched the puck assists, on and on and on. You rarely saw final scores
that looked
like they came from a base ball game Wayne Gretsky would not have kept up
with Gordie Howe, had they played during the same time under the same
conditions.
By the way, If you haven't noticed, there isn't much traffic on these
groups right now.
We could all ignore this debate, but then where could we find idiots like
you to flame!