Young QBs

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scc

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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I just read that Elway's going to miss the next game (seems like his
body isn't going to let him enjoy his farewell season) and it's obvious
that many of the other top QBs have only a small amount of time left
before their health and/or performance drops off (Steve Young, Dan
Marino, Warren Moon). Thinking about the younger QBs who have had
a few years to develop now, does anybody think there is a potential
Hall of Famer among them? There is a trio of players under 30 who
have established themselves among the top QBs: Favre, Brunnell, and
Bledsoe. Aikman probably falls in between these guys and the older
ones since he's 32 and should still have a few good years ahead of
him.

Does anybody see any potential in any of the younger QBs currently
starting? Obviously, it's too early to judge the rookies. That
leaves the following:

Kerry Collins - Has physical tools but no leadership ability.
Tony Banks - Looks good when hot, sucks the other 90% of the time.
Trent Dilfer - Effective but team has never asked him to carry offense.
Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.
Trent Green - 28 years old and finally starting. Limited potential.
Danny Kanell - Hasn't shown anything.
Bobby Hoying - Team looks worse with him than with Peete.
Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.
Elvis Grbac - Sinking and has started whining/finger-pointing.
Kordell Stewart - Hasn't shown any consistent accuracy.
Steve McNair - Like Dilfer, team has never asked him to do much.
Rob Johnson - Too fragile. Gets hurt in virtually every start.

Well, Jim Druckenmiller doesn't belong on the list above since he's
not starting but since this is the 49ers news group, I'll include
him, with the comment that he hasn't impressed coaches at all thus
far.

Of the QBs listed above, which one seems most capable of taking his
performance to the next level?

BenF802961

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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What about Brad Johnson?


scc

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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BenF802961 wrote:
>
> What about Brad Johnson?

He's 30. I just meant among the young QBs who should be entering
the prime of their careers within the next couple of years. He's
already in his prime.

Pat Curley

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:21:13 GMT, scc <na...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I just read that Elway's going to miss the next game (seems like his
>body isn't going to let him enjoy his farewell season) and it's obvious
>that many of the other top QBs have only a small amount of time left
>before their health and/or performance drops off (Steve Young, Dan
>Marino, Warren Moon).

I think in all four cases the time has actually passed. All of them
except Marino have lost games this year to injury, and Marino
certainly seems to be performing at a signficantly diminished level.
Let's remember that Moon is a fluke. Most Hall of Fame quarterbacks
were retired from the game by age 35, and the drop off after that is
quite significant. A 40 year-old quarterback is very rare. DeBerg of
course is almost an entirely new species, after many times thought to
be extinct.

Thinking about the younger QBs who have had
>a few years to develop now, does anybody think there is a potential
>Hall of Famer among them? There is a trio of players under 30 who
>have established themselves among the top QBs: Favre, Brunnell, and
>Bledsoe.

Favre (28 in NFL encyclopedia years, recently turned 29) is great, he
just needs championship rings now to cement his place in history.
Probably did not deserve that (shared) third MVP in a row last year,
but he is awesome. If the Packers had won last year, you'd have a
very good case for the highest pinnacle ever achieved by a QB over a
three year period. As it is I'll stick with Montana 1988-90.

Brunell (27/28) is a wonderful player. Can Ron Wolf judge QB talent
or what--brings in Favre and Brunell to the Packers in consecutive
years! I really think the AFC is poised for the reign of Mark Brunell
and the Jacksonville Jaguars. Once the Broncos get out of the way,
that is. I would suspect that the Jaguars might just be the one team
the Broncos still worry about right now in the conference.

Bledsoe may be overrated. He does well in the regular season, but he
has been wretched in the postseason, throwing five touchdown passes
and 12 interceptions. And it's not like the Super Bowl loss is
dragging him down--without that he'd have three touchdown passes and
eight interceptions. In his best playoff game he had a 72.3 passer
rating. He is somebody I have watched a lot (we get the Pac-10 games)
and has always seemed the type of guy to get rattled before a big
game. OTOH, he has accomplished an awful lot and people forget how
young he really is (26).

Aikman probably falls in between these guys and the older
>ones since he's 32 and should still have a few good years ahead of
>him.

Aikman is one concussion from being out of the league, which I don't
think you can ignore. A great player, arguably the QB of the 1990s.
I hate Dallas, and therefore I fear Aikman.

>Kerry Collins - Has physical tools but no leadership ability.

The player who single-handedly did the most to help his team lose last
year that was allowed to play in the NFL. He has the physical tools
like Heath Shuler and Rick Mirer had the physical tools. He was never
half the player the media made him out to be because of Carolina's
success in the second year.

>Tony Banks - Looks good when hot, sucks the other 90% of the time.

This year is a step back for him, in the third year when most guys
step up. He'd better do something in the second half.

>Trent Dilfer - Effective but team has never asked him to carry offense.

Team is having a tough time but he really has stepped forward for over
two full seasons now. Not one of the best, but just outside the top
ten or so.

>Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.
>Trent Green - 28 years old and finally starting. Limited potential.

Frerotte is actually younger. This team sucks at more places than
quarterback.

>Danny Kanell - Hasn't shown anything.

Agreed, but he hasn't shown that he can't play, unlike a lot of other
guys.

>Bobby Hoying - Team looks worse with him than with Peete.

Another victim of the throw short mentality that has gripped the NFL
in recent years. He does fine late last year (11 TDs 6 INTs),
throwing for 12.3 yards a pop. So the team says great, but he's a
young guy so we'd better put in a conservative offensive scheme. He's
throwing for 8.6 yards per completion this year. Nobody can be
successful throwing for 8.6 yards per completion--the best teams
average more per *attempt*. Jake Plummer is going through this same
kind of idiocy right now in Arizona. I don't like Hoying as much as I
like Plummer because Hoying is three years older, but Hoying could
still be a good ballplayer. Peete is a fine backup--the kind of
player who could be the backup QB on a SB team, but he's not the guy
to lead a team that sucks like the Eagles.

>Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.

He is the one quarterback in the league who has given notice that he
could be the next great one. He played well last year (amazingly well
for a 22-year-old rookie), and he is (much like Hoying except for the
numbers) dealing with a coaching staff that saw him throw for 14.0
yards per completion last year and decided that 9.6 yards would be
more appropriate for a young lad. I still say that Jake is the man,
that the Cards were idiots for not trading the rights to Wadsworth for
a couple of decent offensive linemen (although Wadsworth does look
awesome). Plummer's season could end up being very comparable to
Brett Favre's second year in Green Bay, where he led the league in
interceptions. He will have a ways to go to match Favre's third year.
But in a lottery of potential NFL MVP's for 1999, I would be very
happy indeed with Plummer's name.

>Elvis Grbac - Sinking and has started whining/finger-pointing.

He established himself as an NFL quarterback by throwing 8 TDs and 5
INTs during a stretch for the 49ers when Young was out. He has
actually not played poorly at all in his career except for this season
when he has been quite miserable indeed. His durability is also a
factor at this time.

>Kordell Stewart - Hasn't shown any consistent accuracy.

He has been consistently poor to mediocre as a passer.

>Steve McNair - Like Dilfer, team has never asked him to do much.

He's moving rapidly up the passer rankings. I think McNair is one of
the very best ones, a year ahead of Plummer.

>Rob Johnson - Too fragile. Gets hurt in virtually every start.

Bingo. But he is an awfully good player when healthy.

>Well, Jim Druckenmiller doesn't belong on the list above since he's
>not starting but since this is the 49ers news group, I'll include
>him, with the comment that he hasn't impressed coaches at all thus
>far.

Looks like a bust, but a lot of guys have looked like a bust with
their first teams (e.g. Steve Young).

>Of the QBs listed above, which one seems most capable of taking his
>performance to the next level?

No doubt about it, Plummer. Doing it at a young age means more. He's
having a tough time this season with the short game, but he's learning
and the team is starting to jell. He could be the MVP next season,
the guy who takes the league by storm.

BD

Jason Tcheng

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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Pat Curley (patc...@idt.net) wrote:

Heya Pat, always nice to see you back here!

: On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:21:13 GMT, scc <na...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: >body isn't going to let him enjoy his farewell season) and it's obvious
: >before their health and/or performance drops off (Steve Young, Dan
: >Marino, Warren Moon).

: I think in all four cases the time has actually passed. All of them
: except Marino have lost games this year to injury, and Marino
: certainly seems to be performing at a signficantly diminished level.
: Let's remember that Moon is a fluke.

Moon is amazing. Young is still playing pretty well, and considering his
age that's pretty cool as well. I'm rather surprised that Elway has had
som many problems with health though.

Most Hall of Fame quarterbacks
: were retired from the game by age 35, and the drop off after that is
: quite significant.

True, but it's kind of amazing if you look at the crop of QBs our there
right now. There's the four mentioned above, Testaverde and Cunningham,
who are are the cusp of 35 year old hood. The future of the NFL doesn't
look too bright.

A 40 year-old quarterback is very rare. DeBerg of
: course is almost an entirely new species, after many times thought to
: be extinct.

Vince Evans.

: but he is awesome. If the Packers had won last year, you'd have a


: very good case for the highest pinnacle ever achieved by a QB over a
: three year period. As it is I'll stick with Montana 1988-90.

Those were some incredible years by an incredible player.

: and the Jacksonville Jaguars. Once the Broncos get out of the way,


: that is. I would suspect that the Jaguars might just be the one team
: the Broncos still worry about right now in the conference.

The Broncos look like they'll stay a threat as long as their OL stays
healthy and TD can run. heck, they can win with Bubby, at least for the
time being.

: >Kerry Collins - Has physical tools but no leadership ability.

: The player who single-handedly did the most to help his team lose last
: year that was allowed to play in the NFL. He has the physical tools
: like Heath Shuler and Rick Mirer had the physical tools. He was never
: half the player the media made him out to be because of Carolina's
: success in the second year.

I was really surprised, watching a report on CNN (I think). They showed
the Carolina fan's 'appreciation' of the whole Kerry Collins fiasco. The
fans were merciless. They totally crucified him. Then again it was
probably justified.

: >Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.


: >Trent Green - 28 years old and finally starting. Limited potential.

: Frerotte is actually younger. This team sucks at more places than
: quarterback.

Unfortunately I'll always associate Frerotte with that play which he gave
himself a concussion. Boneheaded, literally.

: >Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.

I've heard a lot but haven't watched any Cards games.

: >Steve McNair - Like Dilfer, team has never asked him to do much.

: He's moving rapidly up the passer rankings. I think McNair is one of
: the very best ones, a year ahead of Plummer.

I think a big factor with McNair is that he wasn't thrown to the dogs.
He's actually had a chance to learn about the game. That's more than can
be said about Leaf (who really shouldn't be starting) and Manning.

If you look athe the some of the QBs we've mentioned (younger ones) the
better ones tend to be ones who have had some time to learn - Favre,
Brunell, Johnson. The ones who have been successful right off the bat
(Bledsoe) have been outnumbered by the flops (Mirer, Stouffer, Brown,
McGwire, Ware...). In all fairness however I don't think Stouffer was
ever really good enough to start.

IMO this year has shown how important experience is to an NFL
quarterback. I really think the seasons that Cunningham and Testaverde
are enjoying are based on their tremendous experience. Coaches would do
well to to take heed, and threat their fresh young QBs with this in mind.

: Looks like a bust, but a lot of guys have looked like a bust with


: their first teams (e.g. Steve Young).

Bret Favre? I'm not really sure why the Falcons traded him.

***

ONe guy we haven't mentioned is Charlie Batch. He was probably playing
well over his head in those victories, but he looked okay. Losing to the
Eagles always sucks though.

Jason

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Tcheng <jgtc...@unixg.ubc.ca>
-= UBC Chemical Engineering =-
A friend is someone who knows your faults but likes you anyways.

ChiuKaHing

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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I think Peyton Manning is the best rookie ever since slice bread.

Samuel X. Fleischer

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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scc wrote:

> Kerry Collins - Has physical tools but no leadership ability.

I disagree. He dismantled the 49ers pretty easily in 1996. He just needs to
regain his confidence, and a team can/will rally around him. Of course, the
P.R. job Carolina sabotaged him with won't help, so in that sense, you may be right.

> Tony Banks - Looks good when hot, sucks the other 90% of the time.

All the physical tools. Lacks mental toughness. Typical MSU football player.

> Trent Dilfer - Effective but team has never asked him to carry offense.

He seems limited in what he can do. His arm is alive, but his ability to read
defenses has never developed. Needs a really good QB coach, I think.

> Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.

Was never "good" to begin with.

> Trent Green - 28 years old and finally starting. Limited potential.

Anything's better than Frerotte.

> Danny Kanell - Hasn't shown anything.

Probably never will. He could use some WR help, though. What is Fassel doing
with this guy?!

> Bobby Hoying - Team looks worse with him than with Peete.

Needs time. Some physical tools, but clearly was the beneficiary of his OSU
teammates in college.

> Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.

Has intangibles. Give him time and an OL.

> Elvis Grbac - Sinking and has started whining/finger-pointing.

"Poor excuse for a human being" ? Another overrated 49er backup.

> Kordell Stewart - Hasn't shown any consistent accuracy.

He's only in his second year as a starter. We'll see. Has more potential I
think than any of them.

> Steve McNair - Like Dilfer, team has never asked him to do much.

Kordell, Jr. With more experience, less talent around him, save Eddie George.

> Rob Johnson - Too fragile. Gets hurt in virtually every start.

Oh, but he looks good when he does play.

> Well, Jim Druckenmiller doesn't belong on the list above since he's
> not starting but since this is the 49ers news group, I'll include
> him, with the comment that he hasn't impressed coaches at all thus
> far.

Need to see him play a lot first. May never get the chance.

What about Leaf, Manning and Batch?

scc

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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Samuel X. Fleischer wrote:
>
> scc wrote:
>
> > Kerry Collins - Has physical tools but no leadership ability.
>
> I disagree. He dismantled the 49ers pretty easily in 1996. He just needs to
> regain his confidence, and a team can/will rally around him. Of course, the
> P.R. job Carolina sabotaged him with won't help, so in that sense, you may be right.

I don't think it's just confidence. He seems to lack dedication to
the sport or the team. I don't think the Panthers are to blame for
Collins' negative image. He dug his own grave. It just seems like
a complete lack of maturity with him and he showed it once again by
getting caught for drunk driving on his return to Carolina. Ditka
says he warned Collins to be careful, but little good it did. Old
Kerry gave the Carolina fans just what they wanted: Another reason
to say "Thank goodness we dumped him". Having leadership ability
requires some level of maturity and Collins has shown none.

>
> > Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.
>
> Was never "good" to begin with.

He showed some potential early on. The problem is that he's still
making the same mistakes that used to be attributed to the "rookie
learning process".

>
> > Bobby Hoying - Team looks worse with him than with Peete.
>
> Needs time. Some physical tools, but clearly was the beneficiary of his OSU
> teammates in college.

Yeah, I guess it helps to play with people like Eddie George, Rickey
Dudley, and Terry Glenn (I don't suppose he played while Joey
Galloway and Chris Sanders were still there?).


>
> > Rob Johnson - Too fragile. Gets hurt in virtually every start.
>
> Oh, but he looks good when he does play.

Yeah, too bad the injury factor is so serious with him. Maybe if he
could avoid the rush, he'd still be playing instead of Flutie. It's
just unreal that he started one game last year, sprained his ankle,
and gave way to Steve Mathews, started a handful of games this year,
and managed to collect 2 concussions and a rib/sternum injury.

>
> What about Leaf, Manning and Batch?

I figure it's too early with them. With the exception of Marino,
I can't recall a recent rookie who could be judged that early.
It doesn't matter who has a good 2 or 3 games first as he sees
action. What matters is which one evolves mentally and learns from
the rookie mistakes.

Mukund J Saxena (HHMI)

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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I wrote some of my opinions within the text...

scc (na...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: I just read that Elway's going to miss the next game (seems like his

: body isn't going to let him enjoy his farewell season) and it's obvious

: that many of the other top QBs have only a small amount of time left


: before their health and/or performance drops off (Steve Young, Dan

: Marino, Warren Moon). Thinking about the younger QBs who have had


: a few years to develop now, does anybody think there is a potential
: Hall of Famer among them? There is a trio of players under 30 who
: have established themselves among the top QBs: Favre, Brunnell, and

: Bledsoe. Aikman probably falls in between these guys and the older


: ones since he's 32 and should still have a few good years ahead of
: him.

:
: Does anybody see any potential in any of the younger QBs currently


: starting? Obviously, it's too early to judge the rookies. That
: leaves the following:

:
: Kerry Collins - Has physical tools but no leadership ability.

I don't know whats wrong with this guy. He looked really good and then
had a broken jaw, a reported racial slur incident, alcohol problems. He may
have the talent, but if you lose confidence and have drinking problemns, it's
tough to get back on track.

: Tony Banks - Looks good when hot, sucks the other 90% of the time.

I really think Vermeil made a mistake sticking with Banks. He missed
a team meeting, which I think shows he doesn't have his heart in it.

: Trent Dilfer - Effective but team has never asked him to carry offense.
: Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.
: Trent Green - 28 years old and finally starting. Limited potential.
: Danny Kanell - Hasn't shown anything.
: Bobby Hoying - Team looks worse with him than with Peete.
: Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.

I think he'll be a star. He makes good plays and the Cards will be
drafting well for the next two years thanks to the San Diego trade. So he
should have great talent around him. One other thing -- since SD is tanking,
their #1 pick (which will be Arizona's pick due to the Leaf trade/debacle)
should be pretty high. It's a QB-heavy draft, and the Cards don't
need a QB, so they could (again) be in position to auction off that pick and
get another #1 in exchange!

: Elvis Grbac - Sinking and has started whining/finger-pointing.

I'm sure you guys remember the Willie Brown incident after the
Cowboys(?) game. I thought it was a nasty comment for the mayor to make, but
hidden in all the fuss over that was the fact that Grbac used his son's illness
as an excuse for his poor play. Even if he wasn't concentrating on the game
due to his son's illness, he shouldn't have used that as an excuse publicly.
IMHO, that revealed a lot about his personality and his ability to handle
adversity. Let me emphasize that I'm NOT saying his son's illness has no
relevance to his play that day. I just think he shouldn't have allowed it to be
used as a reason for his poor performance (e.g. running out of bounds 12 yds
behind the line of scrimmage when he could've just thrown the ball away).

: Kordell Stewart - Hasn't shown any consistent accuracy.

I think he has the talent to be the next Steve Young. Imagine if we
had him on the Niners, working with Mooch and Morhinweg in the offseason!

: Steve McNair - Like Dilfer, team has never asked him to do much.

I haven't seen enough of him.
: Rob Johnson - Too fragile. Gets hurt in virtually every start.
Ditto.

: Well, Jim Druckenmiller doesn't belong on the list above since he's


: not starting but since this is the 49ers news group, I'll include
: him, with the comment that he hasn't impressed coaches at all thus
: far.

Druck really looks like a bust, just like Shuler or Collins. I don't
think he has the focus to be a great QB. None of us would probably doubt his
physical abilities. He can't seem to grasp the Niners scheme. I hope I'm wrong.
I don't know why Clark picked him while Walsh was pushing Plummer. If
anyone deserved to be heard, it was Bill Walsh. I would imagine Marriucci
wanted his QB from Cal, Pat Barnes, who hasn't really surfaced in the NFL yet.
Just guessing on that one, though.

:
: Of the QBs listed above, which one seems most capable of taking his


: performance to the next level?

I think Peyton Manning is going to be at least a top 5 QB in the next three
years. He's got a porous OL right now. If Leaf's attitude doesn't change, he'll
be the next Kerry Collins. Hopefully next year's draft will replenish the
QB talent pool. There are quite a few promising stars: Tim Couch, Daunte
Culpepper, Cade McNown, Brock Huard (maybe?)...

BenF802961

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Nov 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/14/98
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>
> Druck really looks like a bust, just like Shuler or Collins. I don't
>think he has the focus to be a great QB. None of us would probably doubt his
>physical abilities. He can't seem to grasp the Niners scheme.

>
> Druck really looks like a bust, just like Shuler or Collins. I don't
>think he has the focus to be a great QB. None of us would probably doubt his
>physical abilities. He can't seem to grasp the Niners scheme.

Druck looks like a major bust.

>
> I don't know why Clark picked him while Walsh was pushing Plummer. If
>anyone deserved to be heard, it was Bill Walsh.

AHHHH. Don't remind me.

>If Leaf's attitude doesn't change, he'll
>be the next Kerry Collins.

I think more like Kelly Stoufer,Dan McGwire or Gino Torreta.

Adam Small

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Nov 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/14/98
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On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, scc wrote:

> I just read that Elway's going to miss the next game
> (seems like his body isn't going to let him enjoy his
> farewell season)

That's for sure. This is going to be something like
the fourth full game he's missing, as well as him
missing parts of a couple of other games. Of course,
as good as Denver is, they are afforded the luxury
of being more dilligent towards protecting his health
in such a way...

> and it's obvious that many of the other top QBs have
> only a small amount of time left before their health

> and/or performance drops off(Steve Young, Dan Marino,
> Warren Moon).

Of course, if St. Jimmah had his way, Marino's time
would already be history :).

> Thinking about the younger QBs who have had a few years
> to develop now, does anybody think there is a potential
> Hall of Famer among them? There is a trio of players
> under 30 who have established themselves among the top
> QBs: Favre, Brunnell, and Bledsoe.

Favre definitely looks to be Canton bound. Brunnell has
a legitimate shot if his career continues to progress
the way it has. Bledsoe, at this rate, could be more
of a question mark. Favre is probably a purer passer,
tougher, presents a better presence on the field, and
hasn't had the knack of wilting under pressure among
the edges he has over Bledsoe, while Brunnell is more
mobile, accurate, and arguably a better leader than
him.

Of course, Bledsoe was throw into the line of fire
almost from the get-go, so maybe Brunnell and Favre
had more of a chance to develop by observing(weren't
both Brunnell and Favre backups to Don Majkowski back
in '92 together?), while Bledsoe was thrusted into
the spotlight immediately, and had such an onus on
his shoulders that might've hindered him.

> Does anybody see any potential in any of the younger
> QBs currently starting? Obviously, it's too early to
> judge the rookies. That leaves the following:

> Kerry Collins - Has physical tools but no leadership
> ability.

Agreed.

> Tony Banks - Looks good when hot, sucks the other 90%
> of the time.

He has the ability, but he fumbles too much, and tries
to do too much, so if he had an effective runner to
compliment him on offense, I could see him becoming a
reasonably solid QB in the future.

> Trent Dilfer - Effective but team has never asked him
> to carry offense.

Lucky for the team :). He's really in a favorable
situation in that he doesn't have to carry the
Bucs' offense. As long as he plays effective,
mistake-free football, Tampa Bay has that much
of a better chance of winning, which, unfortunately
for them, he doesn't accomplish as often as it
probably should.

Now, if Tony Banks had a Dunn/Alstott combo in his
backfield, he might be a star by now :).

> Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.

Agreed.

> Trent Green - 28 years old and finally starting.
> Limited potential.

Agreed.

> Danny Kanell - Hasn't shown anything.

He's nothing special, but things worked out last year
with playing effectively, while the Giants were able
to run the ball down people's throats. This year, they
needed more production from the passing game, and Kannell's
weaknesses has surfaced, proving that he might be no more
than a one year wonder...a one year wonder who really
wasn't that wonderful :) :).

> Bobby Hoying - Team looks worse with him than with Peete.

Agreed.

> Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.

Probably true.

> Elvis Grbac - Sinking and has started whining/finger-
> pointing.

I guess it *is* possible for a player to be mediocre
without the 9er team around him...

> Kordell Stewart - Hasn't shown any consistent accuracy.

Agreed, but losing his #1 receiver & offensive coordinator
hurt him earlier. Now, he might have gotten over that
hump and could be a formidable passer for teams to
defend against.

> Steve McNair - Like Dilfer, team has never asked him to
> do much.

True. He's had a bigger adjustment, though, going from an
Alcorn State program that bred some unbelievable passing
stats, to an Oiler organization that is more run-oriented
nowadays, so his mindset has probably been affected,
knowing that he won't be throwing 50 passes a games, and
reeling off 400+ passing games as frequently as he was
accustomed to. But, he's also in an advantageous spot,
knowing that he doesn't have to carry the Oilers, and
couple that with his mobility, well, he's light years
beyond Dilfer :) :).

> Rob Johnson - Too fragile. Gets hurt in virtually
> every start.

Yep. He's just been a victim of bad luck.

> Well, Jim Druckenmiller doesn't belong on the list
> above since he's not starting but since this is the
> 49ers news group, I'll include him, with the comment
> that he hasn't impressed coaches at all thus far.

I'm a little unsure about how he could rank among
coaches, though. After all, how can be considered
a bust if he hasn't had any real chance to prove
himself? I mean, maybe he isn't an NFL caliber
quarterback, and maybe that would pan out; however,
Druck, at the very least, should get an opportunity,
be it with the 9ers, or whether another team gives
him that chance.

> Of the QBs listed above, which one seems most
> capable of taking his performance to the next level?

Stewart, McNair, and (don't laugh :)) Banks.

-Adam


Brain Death

unread,
Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
to
On 13 Nov 1998 07:57:29 GMT, jgtc...@unixg.ubc.ca (Jason Tcheng)
wrote:

>Pat Curley (patc...@idt.net) wrote:
>
>Heya Pat, always nice to see you back here!

Greets to you as well, Jason. I usually post as Brain Death around
here (tired of the spam), but sometimes I use my own name as well.

>Moon is amazing. Young is still playing pretty well, and considering his
>age that's pretty cool as well. I'm rather surprised that Elway has had
>som many problems with health though.

Again, it is not surprising that Elway is slowly breaking down--that
is the normal course for a QB. Young and Moon are the real surprises.
I think before last year the record for TD passes by anyone over 40
was 11. Moon threw 25 (!).

>True, but it's kind of amazing if you look at the crop of QBs our there
>right now. There's the four mentioned above, Testaverde and Cunningham,
>who are are the cusp of 35 year old hood. The future of the NFL doesn't
>look too bright.

Part of this may be the end of the baby boom versus the baby bust. I
would suspect there are a lot more 35-year-old males than there are
25-year-olds. But I wouldn't worry too much about the future of the
NFL--there are plenty of good young QBs, and the league is all
relative anyway.

>Vince Evans.

Good call, although I think he was still a few years younger than
DeBerg is today. Of course the Raiders seem to specialize in really
old guys as backup QB--Blanda of course being the prototype.

>Those were some incredible years by an incredible player.

I had been telling friends for years that Montana was the greatest
player in the history of the game (probably jumped the gun a little,
actually), and those three seasons certainly gave me increased
credibility (expecially when I picked Mark Rypien as an up and comer
in 1989 and he had that monster year in 1991).

>The Broncos look like they'll stay a threat as long as their OL stays
>healthy and TD can run. heck, they can win with Bubby, at least for the
>time being.

I would not want to go into the playoffs with Bubby as my starting
quarterback however.

>I was really surprised, watching a report on CNN (I think). They showed
>the Carolina fan's 'appreciation' of the whole Kerry Collins fiasco. The
>fans were merciless. They totally crucified him. Then again it was
>probably justified.

Well, I don't know about that. Collins didn't help himself by being a
jerk, but I don't agree with fans riding a player on the team you're
rooting for. Ride the coach to get him out of there, but don't blame
it on the player.

>Unfortunately I'll always associate Frerotte with that play which he gave
>himself a concussion. Boneheaded, literally.

Hehehe!

>: >Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.
>
>I've heard a lot but haven't watched any Cards games.

They'll be on national TV a lot more next year, I guarantee it!

>I think a big factor with McNair is that he wasn't thrown to the dogs.
>He's actually had a chance to learn about the game. That's more than can
>be said about Leaf (who really shouldn't be starting) and Manning.

I think the practice of throwing the guy in there probably started
with Marino, who threw 21 TDs his rookie year (at age 21 by the NFL's
method). I don't really know how I feel about the practice, because
of course it is impossible to know how things would have turned out
the other way around. Montana certainly followed what is considered
the classic pattern, playing sparingly in the first season, starting
late in the second season, and then blossoming into the best player in
the league. But you can also look at some of the other quarterbacks
who were rushed into the starting lineup like Elway and Young and
Testaverde, who despite struggling early matured into quality
ballplayers. So I don't know if the crush their confidence fear is
legitimate or not.

Of course, with the ridiculous money being paid these top draft picks,
they almost have to play immediately. But I don't think you can learn
anything conclusively negative about a young quarterback based on his
first two or three years. Of course, when a young guy like Marino in
1983 or Favre in 1992 or Plummer last year has a good season you can
assume that he is going to be in the Pro Bowl before long.

>If you look athe the some of the QBs we've mentioned (younger ones) the
>better ones tend to be ones who have had some time to learn - Favre,
>Brunell, Johnson. The ones who have been successful right off the bat
>(Bledsoe) have been outnumbered by the flops (Mirer, Stouffer, Brown,
>McGwire, Ware...). In all fairness however I don't think Stouffer was
>ever really good enough to start.

Well, he was drafted by the Cards, so what does that tell you ;^).
But the majority of quarterbacks drafted in the first round are busts,
absolute and complete. Of the guys you mentioned, I thought Ware got
the poorest real opportunity to play (although the Lions did have
decent options in Erik Kramer and Rodney Peete), and established the
most that he had a chance to be a good quarterback. Brown is backing
up the Cards now, which was a pretty slick move by the organization,
getting a guy who's still young, smart, and has plenty of NFL
experience.

>IMO this year has shown how important experience is to an NFL
>quarterback. I really think the seasons that Cunningham and Testaverde
>are enjoying are based on their tremendous experience. Coaches would do
>well to to take heed, and threat their fresh young QBs with this in mind.

But it is hard to pay a guy $8 million to stand on the sidelines with
a clipboard. Coaches hate it, and even more than that, they
instinctively hate playing young quarterbacks, because they know they
may be paying the price for the next coach's sudden success with the
youngster. As a result, sometimes their hand has to be forced.

>: Looks like a bust, but a lot of guys have looked like a bust with


>: their first teams (e.g. Steve Young).
>

>Bret Favre? I'm not really sure why the Falcons traded him.

They had what looked like a full hand of young quarterbacks in
Atlanta. They had Chris Miller, who was 26 years old and had 71
touchdown passes for his career, and who had increased his passer
rating every season since he came into the league. Miller looked like
a coming star before injuries started to take their toll. And their
backup was 25-year-old Billy Joe Tolliver, who tossed four TDs and two
INTs in 1991. So I'm sure they thought they had the QB position
covered and were happy to trade an untested quarterback to Green Bay
for a first round draft pick (some sources had them getting a 3rd
rounder as well). Sure looks like the worst trade in a long time,
possibly the worst in history, but the irony is that Atlanta has had
some pretty good production out of their quarterbacks every since,
it's been mostly their defense that sucked.

>ONe guy we haven't mentioned is Charlie Batch. He was probably playing
>well over his head in those victories, but he looked okay. Losing to the
>Eagles always sucks though.

Yeah, but beating the Packers had to be huge. Batch looks like he
could be a player, but I seem to recall he's pretty old for a
rookie--older than Plummer, for example.

BD

Brain Death

unread,
Nov 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/17/98
to
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:46:30 -0400, "Samuel X. Fleischer"
<chai...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:

>> Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.
>

>Was never "good" to begin with.

I think Frerotte's an okay player who's getting blamed for a crappy
team. He's not great, and he doesn't have the cannon, so he's nothing
to get excited about. But sometimes when the team sucks it is not the
quarterback--see Neil O'Donnell in Cincinnati, for example. Let's
remember, Frerotte did much better than Heath Shuler (where is he
now?) who supposedly had all the tools. My attitude is that if you've
got an average quarterback (which is about where Frerotte fits in
based on the last several years' performance--he's still got more TD
passes than INTs for his career) and your team is still losing or just
barely winning then you've got more holes to plug before you kick out
a reasonably young guy who has actually performed at an average level
for an NFL QB.

Last year Frerotte had his best season, with 17 touchdowns and 12
interceptions. His number of yards per pass attempted was higher than
such highly regarded quarterbacks as Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

In the first game of this season, in which he was supposedly awful, he
was 8 of 12 for 93 yards, a TD and two interceptions when he was
yanked. That is hardly a Ryan Leaf performance. And since then, his
reputation has gone down steadily with every team loss, even though he
has since personally thrown but one interception and no TDs since
then. He has not looked good in the games he was put in since, and
Green has not looked bad, but the team sure has sucked.

>> Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.
>

>Has intangibles. Give him time and an OL.

Has plenty of tangibles too. I've been calling him a superstar since
his first NFL game, so why should I stop now? SUPERSTAR, SUPERSTAR!
It is fun watching him. I don't think he's ready yet to hoist the
team on his shoulders and take them to the Super Bowl, but the way he
played today from late in the second quarter on was nothing short of
spectacular. My early pick for 1999's MVP.

>> Kordell Stewart - Hasn't shown any consistent accuracy.
>

>He's only in his second year as a starter. We'll see. Has more potential I
>think than any of them.

And in his fourth year overall. He has played well the last few weeks
after clearly coming close to getting benched. Kordell is on the
bubble right now and has nowhere near the potential of Plummer or
McNair, younger men who have established that they can pass at an NFL
level.

>> Steve McNair - Like Dilfer, team has never asked him to do much.
>

>Kordell, Jr. With more experience, less talent around him, save Eddie George.

Look closer at McNair--he's a fine player, much better than Kordell.
He's the one really good, steadily developing young quarterback that
nobody talks about. Except me and folks in Tennessee I guess. The
OilTits are ahead of the Steelers in that AFC Central, no matter what
your paper says today (they sort first by won lost, then by city
name).

>What about Leaf, Manning and Batch?

He specified that they were out of the running because they were
rookies. I think there is a legitimate argument here, because you
can't establish that you aren't a good quarterback no matter how bad
your rookie year is (see Troy Aikman and John Elway for some wretched
rookie performances).

On the other hand, you can certainly establish that you are a good
quarterback your rookie year. IMHO, Manning has done the most. For
one thing he has thrown a touchdown pass in every game except the
third game of the season. For another, he has kept his team in a lot
of games they seemingly had no business in (SF game for example).
Against the Jets today he kept them around long enough to win it.

Ryan Leaf has looked terrible. No telling yet where he could end up.
I was very impressed with him in the Pac-10 last season--he looked far
more of a leader than Drew Bledsoe had in the same role a few years
earlier. His play this season means nothing (unless it is good) and
his play next year will mean nothing (ditto) 2000 is the earliest he
could or should wash out. Until then or he establishes himself as a
player he is a question mark.

Batch is interesting. He is not as old as I had thought (he was
advertised as a sixth-year senior in college (redshirt plus injury),
but is a month *younger* than Jake Plummer). At this time he has
thrown six touchdown passes in his career. He has done nothing wrong,
certainly, and the team should be thinking about learning more around
him than trying to win a playoff berth (which is probably out of
reach).

BD

Samuel X. Fleischer

unread,
Nov 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/17/98
to
Brain Death wrote:

> >> Gus Frerotte - Getting worse with time.
> >Was never "good" to begin with.
>
> I think Frerotte's an okay player who's getting blamed for a crappy
> team. He's not great, and he doesn't have the cannon, so he's nothing
> to get excited about. But sometimes when the team sucks it is not the
> quarterback--see Neil O'Donnell in Cincinnati, for example. Let's
> remember, Frerotte did much better than Heath Shuler (where is he
> now?) who supposedly had all the tools. My attitude is that if you've
> got an average quarterback (which is about where Frerotte fits in
> based on the last several years' performance--he's still got more TD
> passes than INTs for his career) and your team is still losing or just
> barely winning then you've got more holes to plug before you kick out
> a reasonably young guy who has actually performed at an average level
> for an NFL QB.

But it's all relative. isn't it? The Redskins went 9-7 and 8-7-1 with Frerotte
in command. Decent, solid, but was he really the type of QB to take them to
the next level? Probably. He can only lose games for a team; he can rarely win them.

> >> Jake Plummer - Can't tell until he plays behind a real OL.
> >Has intangibles. Give him time and an OL.
>
> Has plenty of tangibles too. I've been calling him a superstar since
> his first NFL game, so why should I stop now? SUPERSTAR, SUPERSTAR!
> It is fun watching him. I don't think he's ready yet to hoist the
> team on his shoulders and take them to the Super Bowl, but the way he
> played today from late in the second quarter on was nothing short of
> spectacular. My early pick for 1999's MVP.

He's still inconsistent - I'd like to see that improve down the stretch this season.

> Batch is interesting. He is not as old as I had thought (he was
> advertised as a sixth-year senior in college (redshirt plus injury),
> but is a month *younger* than Jake Plummer). At this time he has
> thrown six touchdown passes in his career. He has done nothing wrong,
> certainly, and the team should be thinking about learning more around
> him than trying to win a playoff berth (which is probably out of
> reach).

He's solid, but it helps to have Barry, Herman Moore and Johnnie Morton to
play with. Sometimes, I can't figure out why Detroit is 3-7. They just keep
losing close games they probably could win easily.

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