Leaf article confirms his "jerk" status
Rob Wieman III
student. You'd think I'd like him, right? Wrong. He's a jerk, a
low-life, and the ultimate misrepresentation of our institution. He's an
embarrassment to the NFL (not for his play, but for his antics off the
field) and to true Charger fans everywhere. His maturity (or lack
thereof) is alarming, to say the least.
Many of you probably heard about the incidents in the following article,
from the WSU newspaper, The Daily Evergreen. Warning: You may want to
burn your Leaf jerseys by the time you're done reading.
------------------------------------
"LEAF BURNS BRIDGES ON WSU VISIT"
By Chris Pierle and Nima Zarrabi
The Daily Evergreen (Pullman, Wash.)
Published Wednesday, Nov. 4, 1998
Vol. 105, No. 58
Copyright 1998
With autumn coming to a close, the leaves that once clung to Pullman trees
had all but fallen.
One still stood.
Namely the 6-foot-5, 240-pound Ryan Leaf, the former Washington
State University quarterback who now calls the plays for the NFL's San
Diego Chargers.
Leaf was in Pullman this past weekend during his team's bye week to donate
$200,000 to the WSU Athletic Department, but gave much more.
Leaf was involved in a number of questionable activities taking place in
local bars on Thursday and Friday nights.
Accompanied by former WSU teammate Ryan McShane and an unidentified man on
crutches, Leaf visited Shakers, a popular bar located on Colorado Street
inside Adams Mall (near Greek Row) on Thursday night.
At about midnight, Chris Cashman and seven other WSU students entered the
bar to celebrate Cashman's 21st birthday. Soon after, one of Cashman's
friends spotted Leaf and approached him. He asked the quarterback if he
would pose for a picture with Cashman.
Leaf agreed, and WSU senior Sean carter, a member of Cashman's party, took
the photo. After the picture was taken, one of Leaf's companions told him
not to speak with Cashman because he had made comments about Leaf on a
Cable 8 (student programming) show last year.
"One of Leaf's friends told him that Cashman was mocking him on a show
last year," said WSU junior Jeff Dooley, a member of the group that
accompanied Cashman. "So Leaf came over and was saying, 'Are you mocking
me?'" Dooley said.
In an episode of the program "Nite Time," Cashman had done a skit similar
to one frequently used on the NBC talk show "Late Night With Conan
O'Brien." He showed a still picture of Leaf on a television screen, but
inserted a simulated mouth that spoke while pretending to be Leaf in a
mock interview with the show's host.
Cashman explained to Leaf that it was a joke, and the two men proceeded to
the bar to get drinks. Still, it was clear things were not patched up.
Tony Will, a teaching assistant in the WSU School of Communication,
witnessed the event.
"There was a girl between me and Leaf, and Cashman was to the right of
him," Will said. "I couldn't hear what was being said, but there was
obviously some unfriendly words going on. Tony (the bartender and owner
of Shakers) looked at the two and said, 'Knock it off.'"
WSU junior Joel Erne, another person in Cashman's party, said he then
approached Cashman and escorted him to a table on the east end of the bar.
Dooley and WSU student Ross Asher were still standing in the area.
"(Leaf) was five feet in front of me and popped his head in between two
people," Dooley said. "Then he tossed a pitcher of beer at us and we were
soaked. Leaf knew we were friends of Cashman."
Dooley then approached Carter and told him their party should leave. The
pair grabbed Cashman and the others they were with, then proceeded to
leave the bar. On their way out of the bar, Cashman, angered about the
beer incident, yelled his disenchantment for Leaf as he left Adams Mall,
Erne said.
Erne also said McShane had left the bar earlier and was standing outside
between the parking lot and the entrance. He heard Cashman's comments and
shot back some of his own. Immediately after, Leaf left the bar and came
to McShane's side.
It was at this time that 52-year-old Bob Enslow, owner of Corner Market, a
convenience store inside the mall, came onto the scene.
"The word came across the hall that there was an incident involving Ryan
Leaf," Enslow said. "I went out to see what was going on, and all I heard
was condescending remarks about how he (Leaf) could buy out all the
fathers here (it was "Dad's Weekend" at WSU, and many fathers were in
town). He and McShane were by themselves, and I just figured it was no
big deal. I just stood there and waited for them to leave."
The two former Cougar football players decided not to leave the scene.
After another comment from Cashman, McShane became enraged and followed
Cashman to his residence at Sigma Phi Epsilon fraternity, which is located
a few hundred feet away from Adams Mall.
"McShane went over to Sig Eps to the effect that he was going to confront
someone, whether that was for verbal reasons or fist-a-cuffs, I don't
know," Enslow said. "He climbed the stairs on the outside of the house,
and that's when I stepped in."
Enslow said he then asked McShane to step down from the stairs.
"Leaf was standing there next to me laughing," Enslow said. "To such that
his body language was condoning it."
Cashman entered the residence while the men in his group waited outside to
make sure McShane would not follow.
"That's when McShane yelled, 'Get that f--- out here,'" Carter said.
"Then Leaf yells, 'McShane, let's get out of here, these guys aren't worth
it. I can buy and sell all of them.' I then went up to Leaf and tried to
make peace by saying it was all just a misunderstanding and he said, 'F---
you.'
"McShane finally left after Leaf yelled, 'McShane, if you don't leave with
me right now, you can't stay with me tonight,'" Carter said.
That wasn't the only incident Leaf was involved in Thursday night.
Larry Massingale, manager of Shakers, approached Leaf the same evening
about the quarterback's past behavior inside the bar. Massingale wasn't
working that night but was showing the bar to his mother, who was visiting
for the weekend.
Massingale said Leaf had been rude to bartenders in his past visits and
ran up high tabs without tipping.
"He proceeded to tell me what he thought about me," Massingale said.
"Leaf said, 'F--- that, I don't owe anything to anybody.' He said he
could buy this place if he wanted.
"That's not the first time he's been like that in the bar. He's been one
of our more obnoxious customers," Massingale said.
On Friday night, Leaf continued his offensive behavior.
Leaf was kicked out of The Coug, another popular college bar located on
Colorado Street.
WSU senior Nicole Sanders was at The Coug when Leaf entered the bar.
"He was pretty drunk when he came in," she said. "He was making it very
evident that he had entered the bar."
The manager of the bar asked Leaf to leave because of his unruly behavior
in front of a crowd of WSU students and their fathers.
"I was at the window looking at him when he was standing outside," Sanders
said. "He and his buddies were flipping us off and spitting at the
window. They were saying that we had no money."
On Tuesday, Leaf admitted to the San Diego Union-Tribune that he went to
separate bars Thursday and Friday nights, but said he didn't do anything
wrong. Leaf said he was in bed by 10:30 on Friday night.
During his weekly press conference on Tuesday, WSU football coach Mike
Price -- whom Leaf credits as his mentor -- remarked on the incident.
"I heard some rumors about that, but I just can't imagine that," Price
said.
Leaf is scheduled to start for the Chargers on Sunday when they travel to
Colorado to face the undefeated Denver Broncos.
--------------------------
Pretty sad, huh? The local NBC news station aired a story about the
incidents on Wednesday night, confirming The Daily Evergreen's story and
getting several other witness accounts of predominantly anti-Leaf
sentiment.
I, too, had to research these incidents for a separate story I'm writing
for a reporting class, and I talked to a 22-year-old woman who was at
Shakers last Thursday night. She said Leaf had approached a number of
female patrons, engaging in offensive behavior. "He had a $100 bill
rolled up like a cigarette behind his ear," she said. "He walked up to
us, grabbed my shoulder and pointed at the bill and said, 'Go ahead.
Touch it. You know you want to. You know you want it.' I just shook my
head and told him I'm not like that. He told me he wasn't going to let me
touch it anyway."
What a role model Mr. Leaf is. Not only has he flopped so far on the
field, but he hasn't learned to handle his good fortune with dignity and
honor off the field. How Charger fans can admire such a man (if you can
call him a man) is beyond me. Frankly, it makes me ill.
Personally, I hope the Broncos beat the pulp out of Leaf on Sunday.
Nobody in the NFL is more deserving of such a beating.
Shame on you, Ryan Leaf. Grow up!
---------------------------------
Robert H. Wieman III
A Proud WSU Cougar, Class of 1999
---------------------------------
Raymond E. Feist
Rob Wieman III <wie...@wsunix.wsu.edu> wrote:
[snip]
Having been a Resident Dean at one time in my life, I can tell you a
22-year-old jock acting like a jerk is not exactly news.
So why the school newspaper decided to cover this boorish behavior is
anyone's guess, or maybe it was a slow news day. Or maybe it's what the
Aussies call "Chopping the Tall Poppies."
Sure, Leaf acts like a 22 year old jerk.
Me, I'd be woried if he was still acting this way when he's 23 or 24.
Besides, I'm my kid's role model, not some kid playing organized
professional sports.
Best, R.E.F.
--
----
Never attribute to malice what can be satisfactorily explained away by stupidity.
Simon
(and your following comment) do nothing but come across as sour grapes.
Don't you kids at WSU have anything else to write about? Oh maybe a
CURRENT student.
Rob Wieman III wrote in message ...
>OK, Ryan Leaf played for Washington State University, and I'm a WSU
>student. You'd think I'd like him, right? Wrong. He's a jerk, a
>low-life, and the ultimate misrepresentation of our institution. He's an
>embarrassment to the NFL (not for his play, but for his antics off the
>field) and to true Charger fans everywhere. His maturity (or lack
>thereof) is alarming, to say the least.
<<<<snipped>>>>>
Sgt. Riggs
plays for the Chargers, but that is what he expects. He'll act like a
jerk, make millions, and you'll defend him and pay to see it.
keithjdallas
less about his off-field behavior. It's what he does over the next
few years that will determine whether or not we will defend or pay to
see him. There have been plenty of "model citizen" QBs off the field
that don't amount to much on the field. Hopefully, Leaf won't be one
of them. I would much rather have a cocky, jerk-of-a-QB that brings a
championship to San Diego.
And, by the way, I didn't see anybody DEFENDING his ridiculous
behavior.
Raymond E. Feist
<cmt2...@thegrid.net> wrote:
>I find it interesting that you will Defend his rediculous behavior since he
>plays for the Chargers, but that is what he expects. He'll act like a
>jerk, make millions, and you'll defend him and pay to see it.
And were do you see anyone "defending" his behavior?
I merely pointed out that a 22-year-old jock acting like a jerk wasn't
news.Best, R.E.F.
Douglas Briggs
Regards, Doug.
On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:23:01 -0800, ray...@bittersea.com (Raymond E. Feist)
wrote:
:In article <JuF02.14$mX1.1...@twinkie.callamer.com>, "Sgt. Riggs"
Patrick C Miller
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network
Distribution:
Raymond E. Feist (ray...@bittersea.com) wrote:
: I merely pointed out that a 22-year-old jock acting like a jerk wasn't
: news.
Unless, of course, the news media decides that it is news. Clearly, the
media has labeled Leaf a jerk and will pounce on anything he does that
appears to confirm that belief. Knowing this, Leaf needs to be extra
careful about everything he says and does, but I suspect that this is a
tough lesson for someone his age to learn.
That being said, when I read the story that started this thread, I was
fully prepared to learn that Leaf had committed some terrible sin.
Instead, I find out that he's acted like a college kid who had too much
to drink and said some dumb things.
That doesn't fit my definition of news. Then again, I'm not an editor
or a news director, so it doesn't really matter what I think. If the
media decides to make a big deal out of the incident, it will be a big
deal. That's why Ryan needs to be on his best behavior, especially when
he's in public.
*****************************
Patrick C. Miller
pami...@plains.NoDak.edu
*****************************
J.R. Kirkwood
nice to have a super-star quarterback that performed equally well on and off
the field (he hasn't done either at this point). HOWEVER, to simply judge a
person at the ripe old age of 22 is ludicrous. It is a fact that people do
things in their youth that they will ultimately regret, and most don't have
the scrutiny of living in the spotlight of fame. Every time he does
something like this we hear about it.
In a couple of years from now if Leaf matures with his on the field play,
but continues to be the arrogant 'moron' off the field, then I might become
more alarmed at the situation. I don't want my children to grow up
idolizing someone like that, but that is something only time will tell.
People 'mature' on different time tables. Some 22 year olds are amazingly
mature, but growing up being the superstar jock probably didn't help Ryan
out.
I am in no way defending what Ryan Leaf has done. I agree that he has a LOT
of 'growing' up to do. I am however, reserving judgement until he has
adequate time to 'grow up'. Hopefully he does it sooner rather than later.
J.R.
Rob Wieman III wrote in message ...
Tyler Blohm
<simo...@another-world.com> wrote:
>Don't you kids at WSU have anything else to write about? Oh maybe a
>CURRENT student.
Or maybe you guys can discuss the ways in which your football team
will get absolutely creamed by the Wildcats this weekend. I got my
ticket. :)
-
Tyler Blohm - bl...@cs.arizona.edu
MSTie #74633 "Smoke the holy chalice, got my own religion..."
ICQ: #16633959 - Beastie Boys
Public Enemy: #1
...and when I say dozen, you know what I'm talking about, boyee!
Chris
Rob Wieman III wrote:
Geez Bob - and you didn't even get to the tantrum he threw at reporters by his
locker after the Chefs game.
"Get outta here. Leave me alone. Shut up!"
I watched him on the field for 2&1/2 years on Prime NW - maybe following him
on campus would have been more fun. He sure was a trip to watch play though -
what an arm!
But just recall, the money donated was in honor of Mark Rypien's son who died,
and with the bad there is as well some good.
Maybe Ryan and Drew can get together and do the mosh pit at the next Everclear
concert...;-)
tadow
said is showing how immature he actually is, and shows the he has already
taken over a professional athlete's mentality. Thats the kind of comment a
player in the NBA would say. NBA players are by far the lowest form of life.
Anyways, why should they report about current students when he is on campus?
Its a campus newspaper, but a "Current Student" newspaper.
Simon wrote in message <71v4rm$t85$1...@scoop.suba.com>...
>Sorry buddy...but not only is this a poorly, written one sided article. It
>(and your following comment) do nothing but come across as sour grapes.
Rob Wieman III
> Sorry buddy...but not only is this a poorly, written one sided article. It
> (and your following comment) do nothing but come across as sour grapes.
> Don't you kids at WSU have anything else to write about? Oh maybe a
> CURRENT student.
First, I agree that the article could have been written better (after
all, it was written by two journalism *students* and not news
professionals), but that doesn't change the facts within it. Second, it
is not one-sided; Leaf was given the opportunity to deny the events, and
as the article states, he claimed to the San Diego Union-Tribune that he
was in bed by 10:30 Friday night and that he did "nothing wrong." It
seems one-sided against Leaf because, for crying out loud, no witnesses
backed up Leaf's claim. All those Cougs and not one of them defends a
popular former Coug. Gee, wonder why?
Third, sour grapes? He's a Cougar. I'm a Cougar. Why wouldn't I want to
like him? The guy *made* me not like him through his boorish behavior,
simple as that.
Fourth, we "kids" (nice attempt at condescension, BTW) write about a
number of newsworthy things, and Leaf's behavior as a public figure is no
exception. In fact, all dailies in the state and most TV news stations
picked up the story after The Daily Evergreen broke it. The fact that
Ryan Leaf is no longer a student here doesn't make him any less
newsworthy. Hell, Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen is a former WSU
student as well, so should we just ignore any news related to him since he
no longer attends the university? How about Senator Patty Murray?
How about New England QB Drew Bledsoe? Should the papers mention
that Leaf donated $200,000 to the athletic department and just ignore
his behavior? That's ridiculous. Their former ties to the university
make the aforementioned people news here, good OR bad. Period.
Finally, if you don't believe the article existed, check
<www.dailyevergreen.com> next week, when the article (and all of last
week's news) will be posted online.
The fact that you seem to think Ryan Leaf can do no wrong is the most
alarming thing of all. He should be held accountable for his actions like
anyone else. If the guy in the story was named Joe Schmuck, would you be
so anxious to defend his behavior? Get serious -- Ryan Leaf's human.
He made some very human mistakes. But he should be held accountable for
them like anyone else ... be it you, me, Paul Allen or Joe Schmuck.
Rob Wieman III
> In article <JuF02.14$mX1.1...@twinkie.callamer.com>, "Sgt. Riggs"
> <cmt2...@thegrid.net> wrote:
>
> >I find it interesting that you will Defend his rediculous behavior since he
> >plays for the Chargers, but that is what he expects. He'll act like a
> >jerk, make millions, and you'll defend him and pay to see it.
>
> And were do you see anyone "defending" his behavior?
>
> I merely pointed out that a 22-year-old jock acting like a jerk wasn't
> news.Best, R.E.F.
But that's where you're wrong. You left out some facts. The 22-year-old
jock, in this case, is Ryan Leaf, a multimillionaire professional
quarterback for the San Diego Chargers and former student/athlete at
Washington State University.
His status as a former WSU student *alone* makes him news at WSU and with
the campus newspaper; the fact that he's a public figure by *legal
definition* makes him news *anywhere* -- be it in Pullman, San Diego,
Miami or Honduras. You might not like it, but that's the way it works,
and the U.S. Supreme Court has defined it as such.
And let me ask you this: Is it news when Leaf donates $200,000 to the WSU
athletic department, but not when he goes out on the town and makes a
complete a$$ of himself? If your answer is yes, you have a lot to learn
about the media and the news industry in general. And which of the
preceding newsworthy events -- his donation or his behavior -- is the one
people will remember him for most?
As for defending his behavior, I don't recall *you* doing it, per se. But
another poster (Simon, I believe) did, and there will no doubt be others
who are so blinded by bolts that they can't see anything wrong with what
he did (and has done in the past). And that's just too bad.
Rob Wieman III
> On Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:24:56 -0600, "Simon"
> <simo...@another-world.com> wrote:
>
> >Don't you kids at WSU have anything else to write about? Oh maybe a
> >CURRENT student.
>
> Or maybe you guys can discuss the ways in which your football team
> will get absolutely creamed by the Wildcats this weekend. I got my
> ticket. :)
Don't worry. We've got that covered. And, barring a miracle, we will
indeed get creamed. ;)
Bronco Fan
what it is... A gossip article that says nothing about nothing. Who the
hell cares if he got drunk and acted....oh...like a 22 year old. The fact
is...it is a one sided article. Just because they "tried" to get a comment
from him doesn't mean the article told his side of the story. I have some
serious doubt that he threw beer on a bunch of kids just because they were
with someone he didn't like... I would bet next weeks pay that they said
something to him. Not to mention the girls that he supposedly showed the
hundred dollar bill to.... etc...etc..
BTW, when I said "kids" I wasn't trying to be condescending...it was a
figure of speech.
Rob Wieman III wrote in message ...
>
>First, I agree that the article could have been written better (after
>all, it was written by two journalism *students* and not news
>professionals), but that doesn't change the facts within it. Second, it
>is not one-sided; Leaf was given the opportunity to deny the events, and
>as the article states, he claimed to the San Diego Union-Tribune that he
>was in bed by 10:30 Friday night and that he did "nothing wrong." It
>seems one-sided against Leaf because, for crying out loud, no witnesses
>backed up Leaf's claim. All those Cougs and not one of them defends a
>popular former Coug. Gee, wonder why?
>
<<<snipped>>>
Rob Wieman III
> locker after the Chefs game.
Old news.
> "Get outta here. Leave me alone. Shut up!"
But news nonetheless. That's the excitable Ryan we all remember around
here.
> I watched him on the field for 2&1/2 years on Prime NW - maybe following him
> on campus would have been more fun. He sure was a trip to watch play though -
> what an arm!
Yeah, he made the previous two years of football here a pleasure to watch.
He was supposed to be in my media law class during spring semester this
year (Leaf was a broadcasting major and was on the roll call when class
began); too bad he dropped out early, as that could have made the class
more interesting. I held out hope that he'd follow Emmitt Smith's path
back to school to finish up his degree, but that seems more than unlikely
now. He was only 30 credits or so short, too (each class is about 3
credits).
> But just recall, the money donated was in honor of Mark Rypien's son who died,
> and with the bad there is as well some good.
I haven't forgotten. I do question whether his intent was all good, or
some good and some positive PR, but I still think it was an honorable
thing to do no matter what.
> Maybe Ryan and Drew can get together and do the mosh pit at the next Everclear
> concert...;-)
Bledsoe was known to party it up as well while he was here. He was
a regular at Shakers. Nothing quite as obnoxious as Leaf, but ... well,
that's another thread.
Ironside
Sgt. Riggs wrote in message ...
>I find it interesting that you will Defend his rediculous behavior since he
>plays for the Chargers, but that is what he expects. He'll act like a
>jerk, make millions, and you'll defend him and pay to see it.
>
>
>
he's got lots more of those hundies to roll and put behind his ear.
Chris
tadow wrote:
> I don't care what you say, his making any comments remotely close to what he
> said is showing how immature he actually is, and shows the he has already
> taken over a professional athlete's mentality.
You mean 22 years old, asked to be a leader, formerly one in small town
setting, then handed 5 mil$ a year. Yeah - I'd say that is usually a
prescription for disaster...or growth...time will tell.
A lot of people thought Randall Cunningham was a selfish headcase before his
hiatus - like Deon he found Christ - he just didn't have to drive off a cliff to
do it.
Life happens - we adapt.
> Thats the kind of comment a
> player in the NBA would say. NBA players are by far the lowest form of life.
> Anyways, why should they report about current students when he is on campus?
> Its a campus newspaper, but a "Current Student" newspaper.
>
> Simon wrote in message <71v4rm$t85$1...@scoop.suba.com>...
> >Sorry buddy...but not only is this a poorly, written one sided article. It
> >(and your following comment) do nothing but come across as sour grapes.
Rob Wieman III
> >First, I agree that the article could have been written better (after
> >all, it was written by two journalism *students* and not news
> >professionals)
>
> And the difference would be what....???
Wow ... that's quite a compliment to journalism students.
Scram
>It's one of the biggest stories they've had in the greater Spokane area in
>a long time, actually. It's been in the TV news and all major daily
>newspapers in the state. It just so happened that the campus paper broke
>the news first.
I went to school for 2 years in Spokane and the biggest story in that area
was catching some farmer driving drunk. Not to condone his behavior but
give him a little chance. He needs to live and learn and because of the
microscope that he is under, he will always be critized. I will say, it was
pretty damn brainless to start shit in a small town like Pullman. How many
bars are there? 4? At the same time it is pretty damn amazing how a town
that embraced this supposed asshole a year ago is now up in arms against
him. Give him a chance!!!
Steve
Scram
, of course, the news media decides that it is news. Clearly, the
>media has labeled Leaf a jerk and will pounce on anything he does that
>appears to confirm that belief. Knowing this, Leaf needs to be extra
>careful about everything he says and does, but I suspect that this is a
>tough lesson for someone his age to learn.
>
Now I'm just waiting for the T.J. Simers article in the next week!!!
Ughhhhh! Like we need to here from that asshole again.
Steve
VCU 3pt95
to say about the media....(forget Leaf's behavior; most of expected it, whether
or not it is true...)
>First, I agree that the article could have been written better (after
>all, it was written by two journalism *students* and not news
>professionals)
And the difference would be what....???
Stan
"The only Bolts fan in Richmond, VA"
VCU 3pt95
>that's another thread.
Rob, I'm glad you have such an inside dish on the whole thing. But most fball
fans plain don't care. If the Bolts had wanted a choir boy with no guts, they
would have pursued Manning to no end. Bottom line, Leaf is a gutsy winner, ala
McMahon. Until he goes out and OJ's a few people, I don't care what he does off
the field. Plus, he's still 22 years old! I remember being 22 once, and God
knows I wasn't much different. You live, you learn, and so will Leaf. Frankly,
I'm getting sick of supposed reports of his maturity level. Who cares? He's
still a kid, and most his age are still in school. Would any of us fare any
better were we to wear his shoes? Probably not. Cut the kid a break, and let
him play football.
You know what, it's one thing that I am sick of these nonsensical unrelated
reports. What drives me nuts is that this thread has gone on for so fucking
long. Give it a break wouldja Rob, and all else who continue this asinine post?
Dave Taylor
director for WMBC radio here at UMBC in Baltimore. I am also an avid Chargers fan.
Rob Wieman III wrote:
> His status as a former WSU student *alone* makes him news at WSU and with
> the campus newspaper; the fact that he's a public figure by *legal
> definition* makes him news *anywhere* -- be it in Pullman, San Diego,
> Miami or Honduras. You might not like it, but that's the way it works,
> and the U.S. Supreme Court has defined it as such.
US Supreme court aside, anything is news that a media source deems is news. I
believe what Ray was trying to say is that it's not anything new, ie: not a big
deal. Your school wants to make it such by publishing stories about it. That's
where the media has it's pull, in what it deems newsworthy and what it does not.
His point, if I understand correctly, is that WSU chose to make something
completely un-newsworthy, despite his celebrity status, newsworthy and thus you're
making a mountain out of a molehill.
> And let me ask you this: Is it news when Leaf donates $200,000 to the WSU
> athletic department, but not when he goes out on the town and makes a
> complete a$$ of himself? If your answer is yes, you have a lot to learn
> about the media and the news industry in general. And which of the
> preceding newsworthy events -- his donation or his behavior -- is the one
> people will remember him for most?
Apparently, you are the one who has a lot to learn about the media and the news
industry. Either event is newsworthy depending upon the slant the media source
chooses to use. If your media source wants to sling mud (whether that mud is
deserved or not) at it's own alumni, then by all means, go right ahead. But A) I
wouldn't do it - it's a good way to alienate readers and your almighty source of
respect and revenue, your alumni and B) it makes me very glad I never even
considered going to your school. The last thing I'd want after I just dropped
200,000 dollars on a place is for it to go around telling everyone what an asshole
I am.
> As for defending his behavior, I don't recall *you* doing it, per se. But
> another poster (Simon, I believe) did, and there will no doubt be others
> who are so blinded by bolts that they can't see anything wrong with what
> he did (and has done in the past). And that's just too bad.
How is it too bad? Are you without blemish? You haven't made any mistakes
attributable to youth and just general stupidity? I know that I have and I'm man
anough to admit it. You're apparently above that. Ok, whatever. The bottom line is
that as long as he wins football games and doesn't go around commiting heinous
crimes against man, I'm willing to forego an indiscretion or two. You can just go
ahead being a proud Cougar or whatever and keep telling the world that you're the
anomoly - the perfect college boy.
Dave "The Annapolis Chargerfan" Taylor
Dave Taylor
Rob Wieman III wrote:
> On 7 Nov 1998, VCU 3pt95 wrote:
>
> > >First, I agree that the article could have been written better (after
> > >all, it was written by two journalism *students* and not news
> > >professionals)
> >
> > And the difference would be what....???
>
> Wow ... that's quite a compliment to journalism students.
or a slam on the mainstream media....
randall
nonetheless.
first, let's clear up something. to me you are still a kid. i'm
forty-three. when i was twenty-two, i was also still a kid. until you face
the harsh realities of life, such as making a living, raising a family, and
dealing with disappointments, friends and relatives dying, newborn family
members, and whatnot, by my definition you are a kid. sorry. it isn't a
good thing or a bad thing, it's a stage you go through in life. i often
wish i was still a kid.
i posted the following in another part of the newsgroup. i don't want to
re-type it so i'm copying it.
Boy, I missed all this stuff!
You know what? This really doesn't bother me. I'm talking about
unattractive emotional behavior. I'm much more afraid of low-grade
sociopaths. In everyday life, if someone yells, or acts boorish drunk, or
whatever, I can deal with it. And more importantly, it's inherently honest.
I know where that person stands. The people that scare me are those that
can, with a calm expression and a straight face, do something to you that
screws you beyond repair. (like the DMV. :) ) seriously, though, there are
people that are capable of calculating where their best interests lie and
then act, coldly and logically, without remorse to further their cause at
the expense and injury of others. In my mind, there is no comparison in
terms of integrity between one person who, for example, comes into money,
gets drunk and acts like an ass, and another who, for example, knowingly
withholds information a co-worker needs in order to make himself look good
when that co-worker makes a decision based on faulty/incomplete
information.
The reason I like Leaf is, simply, I believe he has had a life that to this
point has left him with a bad (or slightly damaged) self-image. He
frustrates easily. He brags, but he is self-effacing. He shows remorse for
others' bad fortune. (And in Gilbride's case, guilt, whether "deserved" or
not.) He has demons. But from what I've seen of him, he does not have it in
him to mistreat another person in cold blood. (ie, premeditated.) And to
my way of thinking that puts him head and shoulders above a lot of people i
am forced to interact with every day.
Perhaps this isn't a stylish viewpoint. I've met people who consider
low-grade sociopaths "smart". I don't have a problem with that either. I
can shave every day. I just wish i had a mine detector that would go off
when in the proximity of someone with such a value system.
And if I did, I bet I could walk around behind Leaf without hearing a peep.
randall
end, copied portion.
now. you want to keep calling leaf a jerk, you are absolutely right, you
have that freedom. i happen to like him. i also happen to dislike college
kids posting in the san diego chargers' professional football newsgroup for
reasons i cannot figure out. you've made your point that you were able to
research a news item and publish it in a reasonably competent manner. so.
what is it you want here? do you want to convince us that leaf is an evil
person? the problem with that, kid, is there really are evil people. you
probably said "good morning" to one in the last week. but this silly
college-town bullshit is exactly as important as stan says it is. we're not
telling you "you must stop". we're telling you, it'd be real pleasant if
you did. because you're being a self-aggrandizing "all the president's men"
wannabe pain in the ass. and, i apologize for replying on this thread, but
i just got back in town. I will not post on it again.
randall turner
ps - you're bashing stan, and stan isn't even a defender of leaf's
character. ie, he and i possibly don't agree on whether leaf is a nice
person right now. but he's certainly a regular of this newsgroup, and his
interest is the chargers, not leaf's character, not washington state. and
frankly there's probably a lot of other people you pissed off calling him a
"narrow minded fan". (although he is certainly being awfully pessimistic
this week.)
Rob Wieman III
> Ok, here's where I have to get involved. First, my credentials. I am sports
> director for WMBC radio here at UMBC in Baltimore. I am also an avid Chargers fan.
Your credentials offer no more ability to shed perspective on this debate
than I, Dave. I, too, have worked in radio (in addition to a daily
newspaper and two weeklies). You don't have to be Edward R. Murrow to
land a job as sports director of a radio station. I'm not impressed.
I am neutral with regard to the Chargers.
> Rob Wieman III wrote:
>
> > His status as a former WSU student *alone* makes him news at WSU and with
> > the campus newspaper; the fact that he's a public figure by *legal
> > definition* makes him news *anywhere* -- be it in Pullman, San Diego,
> > Miami or Honduras. You might not like it, but that's the way it works,
> > and the U.S. Supreme Court has defined it as such.
>
> US Supreme court aside, anything is news that a media source deems is news.
True, to an extent. Public figures (as defined by the courts), however,
are subject to more critical standards as they relate to "newsworthiness"
and/or "privacy." The same standards would not apply to, say, you or me.
> I believe what Ray was trying to say is that it's not anything new, ie:
> not a big deal.
To you and to Ray, perhaps. It's a rather *big* deal to many people here
at WSU and, dare I say, to the Chargers' PR staff (which, from what I
understand, is less than happy with Leaf at the moment). In fact, it's
becoming a *huge* deal in this region, as several major daily newspapers
and TV stations in Washington state have followed The Daily Evergreen's
story with features of their own about the weekend incidents.
> Your school wants to make it such by publishing stories about it.
Any responsible media will publish both good news and bad news about a
public figure, regardless who it is. How people (readers, consumers,
fans) react to such news determines whether it is a "big deal" or not.
The people, in this case, have spoken. And what they've had to say has
been predominantly unfavorable to Leaf.
Leaf -- not the media -- is responsible for that.
> That's where the media has it's pull, in what it deems newsworthy and
> what it does not.
True, but most media define "newsworthy" in similar ways. Generally, most
media take into account whether the story has broad implications (i.e.
does it affect a large number of people?) and whether a large number
of people would be interested in knowing about it. The answers, in this
case, have proven to be "yes" and "yes." Furthermore, using the "public
figure" standard, the courts have determined that the public have a lawful
*right* to know about Leaf's conduct.
It almost seems as though you're questioning the watchdog for barking at
the perpetrator, when it's the watchdog's job (and role in our society) to
do so. Sheesh.
> His point, if I understand correctly, is that WSU chose to make
> something completely un-newsworthy, despite his celebrity status,
> newsworthy and thus you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
*Despite* his celebrity status? No. His celebrity status *alone* makes
him (and his conduct) newsworthy. Period.
Sounds like you need a media law refresher course, Dave.
And whether the story is a mountain or a molehill is for the readers and
TV viewers to decide. You and Ray think it's a molehill. Judging from
the actions of many readers and TV viewers in Washington state, many
others think it's a mountain.
> > And let me ask you this: Is it news when Leaf donates $200,000 to the WSU
> > athletic department, but not when he goes out on the town and makes a
> > complete a$$ of himself? If your answer is yes, you have a lot to learn
> > about the media and the news industry in general. And which of the
> > preceding newsworthy events -- his donation or his behavior -- is the one
> > people will remember him for most?
>
> Apparently, you are the one who has a lot to learn about the media and the news
> industry. Either event is newsworthy depending upon the slant the media source
> chooses to use.
Tell me this, Mr. Media Industry Insider: Would it be news in Baltimore if
Cal Ripken Jr. threw a pitcher of beer at a group of people in a bar (and
otherwise behaved as Leaf did in Pullman)? Would it be news if he donated
$200,000 to a university there? Both?
Under these circumstances, any responsible media in any town in which such
behavior from a public figure occurred would almost *certainly* consider
it newsworthy.
> If your media source wants to sling mud (whether that mud is
> deserved or not) at it's own alumni, then by all means, go right ahead.
First, Leaf is not an alumnus of The Daily Evergreen, as your sentence
structure suggests.
Second, the campus newspaper is independent of the school. It pays for
itself through advertising and is entirely student-run. The news judgment
of the editors is free of outside influence from WSU administrators,
alumni, etc., as it should be.
> But A) I wouldn't do it - it's a good way to alienate readers and your
> almighty source of respect and revenue, your alumni
I don't respect your decision in such a case. Journalistic integrity is
of utmost importance in the news industry, as you are surely aware.
Alumni contribute little, if anything, to the campus newspaper. And
readers respect a newspaper that is willing to report the "risky" news,
even if that news might not sit well with some. It's the responsible
thing to do, and such a decision places its loyalties in the readership.
To deny them the story -- and thus deny them the chance to draw their own
conclusions from the facts -- goes against every ethical tenet I've known.
> and B) it makes me very glad I never even considered going to your
> school.
The feeling is very mutual, Dave.
> The last thing I'd want after I just dropped 200,000 dollars on a place
> is for it to go around telling everyone what an asshole I am.
Again, the campus newspaper (not to mention all the professional
newspapers and TV stations in the area) has no obligation to the
university or to Leaf. He is held to the same standards as anyone else,
as he should be.
Donating money to WSU's athletic department does not excuse Leaf from the
scrutiny of the public or the media if he chooses to go out and engage in
questionable conduct elsewhere. End of story.
> > As for defending his behavior, I don't recall *you* doing it, per se. But
> > another poster (Simon, I believe) did, and there will no doubt be others
> > who are so blinded by bolts that they can't see anything wrong with what
> > he did (and has done in the past). And that's just too bad.
>
> How is it too bad?
You're kidding, right?
I mean, you *really* see nothing wrong with people who are "so blinded by
bolts that they can't see anything wrong" with what Leaf did (and has done
in the past)? Wow. That's not "too bad." It's just plain sad.
> Are you without blemish? You haven't made any mistakes
> attributable to youth and just general stupidity?
Of course I have. Did they involve throwing a pitcher of beer into a
group of people in public? Did they involve harassing women? Did they
involve spitting at people? Did they involve getting banned for life from
a convenience store? Did they involve anything remotely this
questionable? Did they happen at the age of 22 or older?
No, no, no, no, no and no.
> I know that I have and I'm man anough to admit it. You're apparently
> above that.
No, just not as low or lower than Leaf.
> Ok, whatever. The bottom line is
> that as long as he wins football games and doesn't go around commiting heinous
> crimes against man, I'm willing to forego an indiscretion or two.
Like many professional athletes, he's fortunate there are a lot of other
people who think as you do. Many of them, I'd suspect, reside in or near
San Diego (or are Chargers fans).
Some, like myself, are fed up with the preferential status/treatment of
"holier-than-thou" pro athletes such as Leaf.
> You can just go ahead being a proud Cougar or whatever and keep telling
> the world that you're the anomoly - the perfect college boy.
Put words in my mouth if it pleases you, Dave. I'm not perfect, nor have
I ever claimed to be. I just can't condone the behavior of Ryan Leaf last
weekend, as you seem to do. Nor do I believe his age should shield him
from our scritiny.
So we'll agree to disagree.
Rob Wieman III
> rob, you are being a jerk. perhaps a low-level jerk, but a jerk
> nonetheless.
I am? I'm sorry you think so, Randall. I knew it would be an uphill
struggle to have an objective conversation about Leaf's behavior in the
San Diego Chargers newsgroup, and I never meant to offend anyone. I did,
in a few cases, counter condescending remarks aimed at me with the same.
I wanted to have an intelligent discussion about the events in question.
Some of the NG members have offered as much, while others seem intolerant
of any suggestion that Ryan Leaf or the Chargers have done or can do
wrong. I would put you in the former category, and I thank you for that.
> first, let's clear up something. to me you are still a kid. i'm
> forty-three. when i was twenty-two, i was also still a kid. until you face
> the harsh realities of life, such as making a living, raising a family, and
> dealing with disappointments, friends and relatives dying, newborn family
> members, and whatnot, by my definition you are a kid. sorry. it isn't a
> good thing or a bad thing, it's a stage you go through in life. i often
> wish i was still a kid.
Fair enough. Your explanation is both reasonable and fair. Although I
don't consider myself a "kid" by your definition, I certainly don't
consider myself as *wise* in the ways and realities of life as yourself.
That would be ludicrous. Thank you for your honesty.
<snips re-post for the sake of time>
> now. you want to keep calling leaf a jerk, you are absolutely right, you
> have that freedom. i happen to like him. i also happen to dislike college
> kids posting in the san diego chargers' professional football newsgroup for
> reasons i cannot figure out. you've made your point that you were able to
> research a news item and publish it in a reasonably competent manner. so.
Sigh.
As I mentioned earlier, I simply wanted to gauge the reactions of fans to
the news of Leaf's behavior. The reactions have been pretty much as
expected. Some see nothing wrong with what he did. Others find fault
with Leaf, but think his age makes his actions excusable. Others still
find it reprehensible (the predominant reaction of people in and around
Pullman). There have been plenty of reactions that fit randomly between
the two extremes.
You are entitled to like Leaf. As a Cougar, I hope he will mature and
eventually regret his behavior. I think he's a great athlete, and
although he's struggling this year, I think he will go on to have a
stellar NFL career. I said in January that he'd have a better pro career
than Peyton Manning, and I stand by that statement. I'm not yet ready to
say he's the next John Elway or Dan Marino, though. I hope he is.
I like Leaf as a player. Always have. But he just doesn't seem like a
very "good" or "nice" (or whatever term fits best) *person*. I
interviewed him on a number of occasions while he was here, and he wasn't
the most considerate person I've ever talked to. I've also personally
seen him in bars engaging in behavior that didn't meet the highest of
moral standards. I could go on, but you get the idea.
My values cannot agree with Ryan Leaf the *person*, as much as they agree
with Ryan Leaf the quarterback. Thus, I think he's a fabulous player on
the field, and ... well ... a "jerk" off the field. I'm sorry if others
just don't like that, but that's how I see it. And as I said before, I
truly hope he changes and that my opinion of him as a person changes with
him.
I *want* to like Ryan Leaf. I really do. But he's not helping me, nor do
I believe he *wants* to help me, or even *cares* what I think. Which is
his prerogative.
Oh, well ...
> what is it you want here? do you want to convince us that leaf is an evil
> person? the problem with that, kid, is there really are evil people. you
> probably said "good morning" to one in the last week.
As for whether Leaf is inherently "evil," no, I don't believe that. I
know there is good in him, and that he does some inherently good things
for many good people.
Unfortunately, he also has made some poor decisions that reflect
negatively on his character. Those are the things I take issue with, and
also feel he should be held accountable for. After all, if you're going
to praise the man for his "good" behavior (donations, etc.), shouldn't you
frown on his "poor" or "bad" behavior as well?
It seems that Leaf is held to a different standard of social conduct than
the rest of us *because* of his status as a multimillionaire, pro athlete
who is idolized by a segment of our society for his talents. That just
doesn't sit well with me, and I'm a *huge* sports fan.
> but this silly college-town bullshit is exactly as important as stan
> says it is. we're not telling you "you must stop". we're telling you,
> it'd be real pleasant if you did. because you're being a
> self-aggrandizing "all the president's men" wannabe pain in the ass.
Am I really doing anything wrong here, Randall? I happen to have an
opinion of Ryan Leaf that isn't shared by many of you. I think I've
provided ample reasoning for my stance. If I had waltzed into your
newsgroup saying the usual troll-swash like "Chargers suck!" or "Ryan Leaf
sucks!" without providing any evidence to support my belief, I'd be the
first to admit my wrongdoing. But I didn't. I stated my belief and
provided some samples of my reasoning. I wanted some feedback from
intelligent fans, although I was hoping for more objective responses.
I'm aware that posting anti-Leaf sentiment in a Chargers newsgroup was
risky. I had a feeling it might elicit some angry responses, which it
did. I guess I expected more than that also. My expectations were a bit
too high, as it turned out. Frankly, I'm disappointed.
> ps - you're bashing stan, and stan isn't even a defender of leaf's
> character.
Again, sorry. Never meant to bash Stan. I may have been condescending at
times in response to what I felt were condescending remarks aimed at me
(or to make a point), but I didn't have the specific intent of
hurting, upsetting or offending anyone.
> ie, he and i possibly don't agree on whether leaf is a nice
> person right now. but he's certainly a regular of this newsgroup, and his
> interest is the chargers, not leaf's character, not washington state. and
> frankly there's probably a lot of other people you pissed off calling him a
> "narrow minded fan". (although he is certainly being awfully pessimistic
> this week.)
I said Stan's "who cares what he does off the field as long as he performs
well on the field" philosophies were ignorant, and I think they *are*
ignorant. I evaluate a player based on the total package (do you think
Cal Ripken Jr. would be as popular as he is if fans didn't look at the
total package?), and it seems as though Stan does not. To me, that is a
narrow-minded approach. I'm sorry if it offended you, or him.
At the very least, I accomplished something here by invoking many of you
to think harder about why our society idolizes pro athletes who don't
deserve our adulation. Sure, it's our fault for placing them on such a
pedestal to begin with, but they are no less accountable for exploiting
our mistake.
Regards.
Patrick C Miller
: It seems that there are countless hotshot rookie NFL players who come
: and go every year without making a$$e$ of themselves off the field.
You could be right, but I'd also bet there are countless other NFL
rookies (hotshot and otherwise) who have done things much, much worse than
what Leaf is reported to have done in your story. Why is it that Leaf's
off-field behavior is newsworthy and other rookie players' behavior isn't?
: What's their secret?
Their secret is that the media hasn't decided to label them a jerk and
follow them around, waiting to pounce on what they say and do every time
someone decides it's inappropriate.
: It's quite possible to be humble and to carry yourself with dignity in
: light of good fortune, Stan. People -- including pro athletes -- do it
: all the time. Many of them are younger than 22. And, admittedly, many
: (like Leaf) do not.
And all their missteps aren't front-page news, are they?
: Still, one needn't be arrogant and flambuoyant to be a young millionaire
: football phenom.
Based on what I've read, Leaf was arrogant and flamboyant BEFORE he
became a millionaire. Hell, quarterbacks I knew in high school were
arrogant and flamboyant. Those traits seem to be shared by many
successful quarterbacks. Is that newsworthy?
: There's that word again: "Kid." Let me ask you this: At what age do we
: cease to be "kids"? Is it relative? In other words, did I cease to be a
: "kid" at 18, while Ryan Leaf continues to be a "kid" at 22? At what point
: in our lives are we *all* held to the same social/behavioral standards?
: The law says age 18. What do you say, Stan?
Oh, so now it's up to the media to enforce social/behavioral standards
for *all* society? If that's the case, why hasn't the media done more to
drive Bill Clinton, the poster child for boorish behavior, out of office
office? Nice double standard there, Rob.
: I have no problem with how Leaf carries himself *on* the field, mind you.
: His behavior there is entirely appropriate. His behavior off the field,
: on the other hand, often is not in keeping with societal standards.
Do you realize how pompous this sounds? Dave Taylor was right. You
made a mountain out of a molehill and the more you try to justify it, the
more ridiculous you sound.
OmegaMan69
>for *all* society? If that's the case, why hasn't the media done more to
>drive Bill Clinton, the poster child for boorish behavior, out of office
>office? Nice double standard there, Rob.
What the hell more would you have wanted to media to do to drive
Bill Clinton out of office? They have had 24 hour a day saturation
on the subject. Every network news outlet harped on it the lead
story 5 days a week. Every cable news channel talked about it
at the exclusion of all other news. The newpapers were filled
with stories. Magazines like Time and Newsweek were filled
with stories. The subject got more coverage than WWII.
And more so, is it really the news media's job to drive a
politician out of office? I thought the job of the media was to
merely report the facts and let the public decide. In that the
Democrats actually GAINED seats in the election indicates
that the public has decided and they feel doing a good job
is more important than boorish behavior. Which is no doubt
why Ryan Leaf is also being supported to the extent he is.
George Velazquez
have to listen to every idiot try to defend him. The guy is a loser, and he
doesn't appear to be making any improvements. I agree with Rob's comments
100%.
VCU 3pt95
statement and posts away to the "New" TAFKA....
>You must be pretty important to have been empowered to speak for *most*
>football fans, Stan.
>
Fine, argue over semantics now.... many,most, whatever.
>> Until he goes out and OJ's a few people, I don't care what he does off
>> the field.
>
>Oh, I see. Short of slicing the heads off of a few people, anything he
>does off the field shouldn't be subjected to the scrutiny of the public
>or the media. Sure.
Not debating what the media should or shouldn't cover. I'm just saying that *I*
(along with many others) don't really care what he does off the field, good or
bad.(Personally, I feel the same way about Clinton; things in his personal life
shouldn't matter when it comes to on the job tasks.) Great, he donated a
boatload of dough....big deal. So, he threw a pitcher of beer at some college
kids. Big deal. (As long as he didn't injure his right arm, I DON'T CARE.)
Many, many, many people have done much worse, jock or not. He's human. Is he a
jerk? I am not arguing that point either. He probably is, but the Bolts pretty
much knew that when they drafted him. For the fans that were a bit unsure, the
KC/cameraman tirade pretty much convinced those who didn't think he was a
prick.
>You have some interesting social standards on your planet, Stan.
Yes I do, thank you very much. The first standard we set in my modern day
utopia was to keep redundant cretins like you from living within 100 miles of
us.
>> Plus, he's still 22 years old! I remember being 22 once, and God
>> knows I wasn't much different.
>
>That's your fault.
I never did anything terribly wrong, but am man enough to admit that if I got
rich quick, the money would probably go to my head too. Leaf was a jerk before
the money, and now it may have compounded the problem.
I've managed to make it through 23 years without
>getting kicked out of a bar,
What kind of fun are you?
or being banned for life from a convenience
>store,
Oh my! For life? From a convenience store? In little old WSU territory?
Ooooh...whatever will poor Ryan do?
or spitting at people, or throwing a pitcher of beer into a group
>of people, or harassing women.
Many of us have gotten drunk and done something wrong. It may be a difference
in terms of degree, but inappropriate words/actions are still wrong. Are you
saying you have NEVER hurt someone else's feelings?
>I suppose I'm the rare exception to the "youth rule" though, right?
If you are the supposed saint you claim to be, I'll nominate you to take over
for Mother Theresa, pansy boy.
>> Frankly, I'm getting sick of supposed reports of his maturity level.
>
>Of course you are. You're a Chargers fan, and Leaf is the Chargers'
>quarterback. It's hard to swallow negative news about your team's star
Hey, I don't care if he played for Dallas. (Hell, he may have fit in better in
Dallas a coupla years back...) I can't stand repeated "personal life" stories
about anybody in the public eye. So long as whatever the bad deeds were do not
affect on the job performance, I could care less. If you are in jail (like Bam
Morris), then obviously you can't be on the field, and therefore the deed must
have been more than a minor infraction of the law.
>At least most people on this newsgroup can look at the facts
>objectively and conclude that Leaf made some foolish mistakes.
Leaf has made some foolish mistakes? Surely you jest....
>The "who
>cares what he does off the field" school of thought simply reeks of
>ignorance, and it demonstrates just how narrow-minded a fan you really
>*are*.
Oh. I see, I am the newsgroup ingnoramus as appointed by the "holier than thou"
Rob, proud WSU fan.
On the contrary, you imbecilic autistic fecalphiliac. It demonstrates how OPEN
minded I am. I am a fan of the Chargers football team when they are PLAYING
FOOTBALL, which is what they get paid to do. That's what the ticket sales are
for, to pay salaries, not to be role models when off the field. Are they role
models to kids? Unfortunately, yes. (See Charles Barkley's, "I am not a role
model" commercial from the early 90's...) Would I want my kid to grow up like
Leaf? No. If he had that killer arm, I'd sure as hellfire knock some sense into
his dome before he got too big for his britches. So, if in YOUR
narrow-mindedness, you consider me ignorant, well....I'm rubber you're
glue....whatever bounces off of me sticks to you....Nyah, nyah, nyah! (I
figured I should make a statement that your pea sized cerebrum could
comprehend. For the rest of the NG, I just called him ignorant right back....)
>I bet you embrace positive news about Leaf's off-the-field behavior, such
>as his donation in Rypien's name. Am I right?
>
No, you're wrong yet again. Sure it was a nice gesture, but I could care less.
It didn't affect his play on the field, did it?
>At 22? I don't think so. By the way, adulthood begins at 18
So you've never met a 45 year old that couldn't handle him/herself? Watch
"COPS" just one time (unless you've been ON the show before, in which case you
have firsthand knowledge about prisons and "misbehavior"...) There are alot of
16 year olds that are more mature than you or I. The curve is diffrent for
everyone based on their individual set of circumstances and experience.
>Which
>means he is legally bound to behave like one in public, or suffer the
>consequences in the event that he does not. He didn't, and he's suffering
>the consequences
Well, how's that? A few "bad" media reports? I doubt it's hurting Ryan's
feelings. If he *REALLY* did all of the things reported, I am certain that
there will be legal ramifications for the beer throwing incident among others.
We shall see if there are any monetary settlements in the near future...
Should he be responsible for his actions? Certainly.
> He's not a
>"kid" anymore, and he shouldn't be able to use his age to shield himself
>from our social standards
Again, not excusing his behavior due to his age. He is going to make mistakes,
regardless of how old or young he is. Just that in the normal learning curve,
we all tend to make more mistakes in our youth.
>It seems that there are countless hotshot rookie NFL players who come and
>go every year without making a$$e$ of themselves off the field. What's
It also seems that there are countless veteran players who make dumb mistakes
every year. (Pick a sport, any sport....people are people, and will always
continue to make mistakes.)
>It's quite possible to be humble and to carry yourself with dignity in
>light of good fortune, Stan.
Ya know, I really don't like it when you use my name in your post. It sounds
really condescending. It's quite possible to make a point without being an
asshole, Rob.
>There's that word again: "Kid." Let me ask you this: At what age do we
>cease to be "kids"? Is it relative?
I refer to him as "Kid" because he is YOUNGER and seemingly less mature than
me. It's a term. Get used to it; people use it all the time. Is he a baby boy
just because Seau calls him "Baby Boy"?
> At what point
>in our lives are we *all* held to the same social/behavioral standards?
>The law says age 18.
The law has undergone new interpretations (thank you very much), as evidenced
by adolescents doing life terms, and even death row sentences for their crimes.
>What do you say, Stan?
I say I'd like to see you call Leaf a jerk to his face.
>I have no problem with how Leaf carries himself *on* the field, mind you.
>His behavior there is entirely appropriate
Then you haven't been watching the games. Throwing an interception is a
behavior that he has mastered.
>> You know what, it's one thing that I am sick of these nonsensical unrelated
>> reports.
>
>Unrelated to what? Leaf's a football player for the San Diego Chargers.
>That's all the relation we need.
Hey, as long as there is media, we will have these stories. I just stated that
I am sick of them, as they have little to do with PLAYING football. Would it be
nice if Leaf were a wonderful man? Sure, but what does it have to do with
throwing a football?
>I will continue this discussion as long as others wish to engage in it
>with me. It's entirely appropriate in a public forum about the San Diego
>Chargers. You don't have to like it, Stan.
Ok, ROB, here goes. You made your point with the article you posted. (By the
way, I rather enjoyed reading it, although it was a bit one sided. Thank you
for posting it; it was fairly informative. I still could care less about his
actions though.) Your point being that Leaf is a jerk.... NEWSFLASH!!!! San
Diego fans ALREADY knew that! We appreciate the article, as many of us probably
had not seen it until then. However, by keeping this thread going, you are not
telling the NG anything they didn't already know. Hell, we even had him
nicknamed TAFKA, for God's sake. You, Robert H. Wieman III (geesh, how pompous
does that name sound?), are now doing nothing other than pissing people off.
Leaf is a jerk. Hey, we got it, Rob. Now leave.
VCU 3pt95
>nonetheless.
No, no Randall, you've got it all wrong. Here, let me give you an excerpt from
the computer based GRE's...
Leaf : Jerk as Rob :
a. Shithead
b. Cretin
c. Pedophile
d. Kid
e. All of the above
(Somewhat atypical of GRE's to have an all of the above answer in an analogy
question, but I think "e" is the correct answer.)
>now. you want to keep calling leaf a jerk, you are absolutely right,
See, Rob? You've made your point. We think Leaf IS a jerk to some degree.
> i also happen to dislike college
>kids posting in the san diego chargers' professional football newsgroup for
>reasons i cannot figure out.
See, Rob, we think you are a jerk as well.
>you've made your point that you were able to
>research a news item and publish it in a reasonably competent manner. so.
See, Rob, we think you made a good initial post. Now go away.
> we're not
>telling you "you must stop". we're telling you, it'd be real pleasant if
>you did.
No Randall, I'm telling him to get the fuck out, no sugar coating it here.
> and, i apologize for replying on this thread,
>I will not post on it again.
Me too Randall, as soon as I make a few more comments on another one of his
"bashing the NG people" posts.
VCU 3pt95
>person right now.
Is he pure evil? No. Is he the nicest guy on the planet? No.
> his
>interest is the chargers, not leaf's character, not washington state.
Thank you Randall, I couldn't have said it more clearly.
>and
>frankly there's probably a lot of other people you pissed off calling him a
>"narrow minded fan".
Gee, not if they are as narrow minded and ignorant as me....
> (although he is certainly being awfully pessimistic
>this week.)
:) I have been, haven't I? I would love to see the Bolts win, but I just
don't think they can pull it out. Just my opinion. I hope you all are able to
make me eat crow for my comments about the game!
VCU 3pt95
>struggle to have an objective conversation about Leaf's behavior in the
>San Diego Chargers newsgroup
Objective? How about your one sided attempts at convincing us that Leaf is the
anti-Christ? Also, this NG is among the most objective forums for discussion
I've seen on the net.
>I never meant to offend anyone.
Yes you did, you plebe. You don't call people narrow-minded and ignorant for
compliments.
>As I mentioned earlier, I simply wanted to gauge the reactions of fans to
>the news of Leaf's behavior
He's a jerk, period. Happy? I don't think anyone agrees that his behavior is
totally acceptable. Expected, yes, acceptable, no.
> I
>interviewed him on a number of occasions while he was here, and he wasn't
>the most considerate person I've ever talked to.
Oh my, Robert H. Wieman III finds Leaf to be less than considerate. Perhaps
Ryan should just take his own life.
> I've also personally
>seen him in bars engaging in behavior that didn't meet the highest of
>moral standards.
I've also personally seen DOZENS of people every night I've ever been to a bar
engaging in behaviors that didn't exactly meet the highest moral standards.
Hell, it's a BAR for God sakes! People drink and get drunk!
> I could go on, but you get the idea.
I could go on as well, but you get the idea.
>I *want* to like Ryan Leaf. I really do. But he's not helping me, nor do
>I believe he *wants* to help me, or even *cares* what I think.
So, Leaf should go out of his way to convince you and only you that he is a
good person? My, how self centered are you?
>If I had waltzed into your
>newsgroup saying the usual troll-swash like "Chargers suck!" or "Ryan Leaf
>sucks!"
Then we would have kindly shown you the door right away.(Thank you for not
being that type of troll.) But now, you are pissing people off. Here, let me
kindly show you the door....
>Again, sorry. Never meant to bash Stan. I may have been condescending at
>times in response to what I felt were condescending remarks aimed at me
>(or to make a point), but I didn't have the specific intent of
>hurting, upsetting or offending anyone.
>
Then I too am sorry if I have offended anyone....sure. Now go back to your
studies and having autoerotic activities inside of the school mascot costume.
VCU 3pt95
That's cuz Dave Taylor is always right! ;)
>You
>made a mountain out of a molehill and the more you try to justify it, the
>more ridiculous you sound.
Amen.
Dave Taylor
Rob Wieman III wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Dave Taylor wrote:
>
> > Ok, here's where I have to get involved. First, my credentials. I am sports
> > director for WMBC radio here at UMBC in Baltimore. I am also an avid Chargers fan.
>
> Your credentials offer no more ability to shed perspective on this debate
> than I, Dave. I, too, have worked in radio (in addition to a daily
> newspaper and two weeklies). You don't have to be Edward R. Murrow to
> land a job as sports director of a radio station. I'm not impressed.
Listen asshole, I'm not here to impress you, nor was I trying to. My point was that I
have some background in media. Period. I couldn't give a shit what you think.
> I am neutral with regard to the Chargers.
>
> > Rob Wieman III wrote:
> >
> > > His status as a former WSU student *alone* makes him news at WSU and with
> > > the campus newspaper; the fact that he's a public figure by *legal
> > > definition* makes him news *anywhere* -- be it in Pullman, San Diego,
> > > Miami or Honduras. You might not like it, but that's the way it works,
> > > and the U.S. Supreme Court has defined it as such.
> >
> > US Supreme court aside, anything is news that a media source deems is news.
>
> True, to an extent. Public figures (as defined by the courts), however,
> are subject to more critical standards as they relate to "newsworthiness"
> and/or "privacy." The same standards would not apply to, say, you or me.
The bloody courts don't even come into it. Take a look at how differing news sources
treated the Clinton / Starr fiasco. The point is the media creates whatever slant they
want poeple to see. That's the bottom line. If one media source wants Leaf to look bad,
they'll make it so and vice versa.
> > I believe what Ray was trying to say is that it's not anything new, ie:
> > not a big deal.
>
> To you and to Ray, perhaps. It's a rather *big* deal to many people here
> at WSU and, dare I say, to the Chargers' PR staff (which, from what I
> understand, is less than happy with Leaf at the moment). In fact, it's
> becoming a *huge* deal in this region, as several major daily newspapers
> and TV stations in Washington state have followed The Daily Evergreen's
> story with features of their own about the weekend incidents.
If these things are a big deal to you people up there, then I suggest you all need to
get a life. People are starving and killing one another and the government is a shambles
and you folks are worrying about a 22 year old kid spilling beer on some folks and
spitting at others?? I should move up there because it must be a bleedin' utopia. I
wonder who's really got their head in the sand.
> > Your school wants to make it such by publishing stories about it.
>
> Any responsible media will publish both good news and bad news about a
> public figure, regardless who it is.
In an unbiased manner which, after reading the piece, I can say the writer utterly
failed to do.
> How people (readers, consumers,
> fans) react to such news determines whether it is a "big deal" or not.
> The people, in this case, have spoken. And what they've had to say has
> been predominantly unfavorable to Leaf.
See previous comments about media slant and certain individuals up north there needing
to get a life.
> > That's where the media has it's pull, in what it deems newsworthy and
> > what it does not.
>
> True, but most media define "newsworthy" in similar ways.
izzat so? Try reading the NY times and the Washington Post together at one sitting and I
think you'll change your tune.
> Generally, most
> media take into account whether the story has broad implications (i.e.
> does it affect a large number of people?) and whether a large number
> of people would be interested in knowing about it. The answers, in this
> case, have proven to be "yes" and "yes."
How does Leaf's actions have broad implications on the area population up there? Did
everyone's taxes go up because he had a childish episode? He got banned from a
convenience mart (big deal - I've been banned from things before as well) and now you
all have a major change somehow in the quality of your life? C'mon, you must have been
smoking something when you wrote that.
> Furthermore, using the "public
> figure" standard, the courts have determined that the public have a lawful
> *right* to know about Leaf's conduct.
And of course, the media is obligated to hop on it and tear him to shreds in much the
same way the tabloids would.
> It almost seems as though you're questioning the watchdog for barking at
> the perpetrator, when it's the watchdog's job (and role in our society) to
> do so. Sheesh.
No, I'm questioning the watchdog for trying to make up people's minds for them. I'm
questioning the watchdog for moralizing where it has no business doing so and for
barking at the falling leaf (if you'll excuse the pun) while the burglar is breaking
into the house.
> > His point, if I understand correctly, is that WSU chose to make
> > something completely un-newsworthy, despite his celebrity status,
> > newsworthy and thus you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
>
> *Despite* his celebrity status? No. His celebrity status *alone* makes
> him (and his conduct) newsworthy. Period.
So what you're telling me is that every celebrity is news no matter what he does and
that it should all be reported? Ok, if that's what you think, then you've certainly
dropped the ball - where's the record of every time Leaf goes to the bathroom, or how
about the big breaking story about Leaf watching the Simpsons and laughing when Homer
does somehting stupid? Surely this must be news because he's laughing at the
disadvantaged, right?
> Sounds like you need a media law refresher course, Dave.
Sounds like you need to get out into the real world and out of the classroom.
> And whether the story is a mountain or a molehill is for the readers and
> TV viewers to decide.
With the Daily Evergreen's help, of course.
> You and Ray think it's a molehill. Judging from
> the actions of many readers and TV viewers in Washington state, many
> others think it's a mountain.
Perhaps some statistics or some poll numbers or something would help me be convinced. I
would hope that the good people of Washington would have more important things to worry
about. A few people with too much time on their hands does not a majority make.
> > > And let me ask you this: Is it news when Leaf donates $200,000 to the WSU
> > > athletic department, but not when he goes out on the town and makes a
> > > complete a$$ of himself? If your answer is yes, you have a lot to learn
> > > about the media and the news industry in general. And which of the
> > > preceding newsworthy events -- his donation or his behavior -- is the one
> > > people will remember him for most?
> >
> > Apparently, you are the one who has a lot to learn about the media and the news
> > industry. Either event is newsworthy depending upon the slant the media source
> > chooses to use.
>
> Tell me this, Mr. Media Industry Insider:
No, no, no... Dave. I'm Dave. You're educated, right? Say it with me... Daaave... very
good. A few more shock treatments and you should be ready to go out in public.
> Would it be news in Baltimore if
> Cal Ripken Jr. threw a pitcher of beer at a group of people in a bar (and
> otherwise behaved as Leaf did in Pullman)? Would it be news if he donated
> $200,000 to a university there? Both?
Yep, sure would. And it would not be news a few days later. And news as it might be, the
Baltimore Sun wouldn't dwell on it and try to get everyone thinking that he's the
biggest asshole to walk planet Earth.
> Under these circumstances, any responsible media in any town in which such
> behavior from a public figure occurred would almost *certainly* consider
> it newsworthy.
Yep, but news also encompasses trying to get all the facts and find out what happened
rather than saying the famous guy must be at fault.
> > If your media source wants to sling mud (whether that mud is
> > deserved or not) at it's own alumni, then by all means, go right ahead.
>
> First, Leaf is not an alumnus of The Daily Evergreen, as your sentence
> structure suggests.
Leaf is an alumnus of WSU. Does that clear it up for you, Einstien?
> Second, the campus newspaper is independent of the school. It pays for
> itself through advertising and is entirely student-run. The news judgment
> of the editors is free of outside influence from WSU administrators,
> alumni, etc., as it should be.
>
> > But A) I wouldn't do it - it's a good way to alienate readers and your
> > almighty source of respect and revenue, your alumni
>
> I don't respect your decision in such a case. Journalistic integrity is
> of utmost importance in the news industry, as you are surely aware.
As is a commitment to being non-biased.
> Alumni contribute little, if anything, to the campus newspaper. And
> readers respect a newspaper that is willing to report the "risky" news,
> even if that news might not sit well with some. It's the responsible
> thing to do, and such a decision places its loyalties in the readership.
> To deny them the story -- and thus deny them the chance to draw their own
> conclusions from the facts -- goes against every ethical tenet I've known.
But you're not giving them the chance to draw conclusions from the facts because the
"facts" were reported as you wanted people to see them. Don't you get it? A simple
report about surrounding current events is one thing but to put your own spin on it
makes you part of the problem, not the solution.
> > and B) it makes me very glad I never even considered going to your
> > school.
>
> The feeling is very mutual, Dave.
Well, at least we can agree on that.
> > The last thing I'd want after I just dropped 200,000 dollars on a place
> > is for it to go around telling everyone what an asshole I am.
>
> Again, the campus newspaper (not to mention all the professional
> newspapers and TV stations in the area) has no obligation to the
> university or to Leaf. He is held to the same standards as anyone else,
> as he should be.
Obligation, no but you have a moral obligation not to go around causing unnecessary
problems for the University and the Alumni. If you can't see that, then you're going to
have a very hard time once you're out in the world.
> > > As for defending his behavior, I don't recall *you* doing it, per se. But
> > > another poster (Simon, I believe) did, and there will no doubt be others
> > > who are so blinded by bolts that they can't see anything wrong with what
> > > he did (and has done in the past). And that's just too bad.
> >
> > How is it too bad?
>
> You're kidding, right?
No, if I was kidding I would have made a joke.
> I mean, you *really* see nothing wrong with people who are "so blinded by
> bolts that they can't see anything wrong" with what Leaf did (and has done
> in the past)? Wow. That's not "too bad." It's just plain sad.
No, I see people who recognize simple immaturity when they see it, chalk it up to such
and don't sit there and condemn the kid for things that most everyone else in his age
group is guilty of at one time or another as well. Being a celebrity doens't make you a
god and you shouldn't be expected to be held to those kind of standards.
> > Are you without blemish? You haven't made any mistakes
> > attributable to youth and just general stupidity?
>
> Of course I have. Did they involve throwing a pitcher of beer into a
> group of people in public? Did they involve harassing women? Did they
> involve spitting at people? Did they involve getting banned for life from
> a convenience store? Did they involve anything remotely this
> questionable? Did they happen at the age of 22 or older?
I'm guilty of it. Not all of it, but some of it. Kids make mistakes. So what? Usually
they grow up and without the help of idiots hiding behind the guise of "press"
condemning them.
> > I know that I have and I'm man anough to admit it. You're apparently
> > above that.
>
> No, just not as low or lower than Leaf.
So things have been done differently between you two. That makes you somehow better than
him?
> > Ok, whatever. The bottom line is
> > that as long as he wins football games and doesn't go around commiting heinous
> > crimes against man, I'm willing to forego an indiscretion or two.
>
> Like many professional athletes, he's fortunate there are a lot of other
> people who think as you do. Many of them, I'd suspect, reside in or near
> San Diego (or are Chargers fans).
I'd say this about anyone. It's what makes us human is that we make mistakes. If I was
under the microscope all of the time, I'd probably be seen as the bloody anti-christ and
the worst thing I'm really guilty of is a speeding ticket.
> Some, like myself, are fed up with the preferential status/treatment of
> "holier-than-thou" pro athletes such as Leaf.
Or are you jealous?
> > You can just go ahead being a proud Cougar or whatever and keep telling
> > the world that you're the anomoly - the perfect college boy.
>
> Put words in my mouth if it pleases you, Dave.
How am I putting words in your mouth? Explain to me how you did not infer that you're
better than Leaf and "the perfect college boy"?
> I'm not perfect, nor have
> I ever claimed to be. I just can't condone the behavior of Ryan Leaf last
> weekend, as you seem to do.
Talk about putting words in someone's mouth? I was not saying Leaf is guiltless, I'm
saying that he's a kid, he's done kid thigs and thus we shouldn't look quite as harshly
on him as some would like to.
> Nor do I believe his age should shield him
> from our scritiny.
There's where you're wrong. If I was held responsible for all my "youthful
indiscretions", I'd be in a lot of hot water. They're all things that I don't do
anymore. I grew up. Leaf will too and you will as well. Scrutinizing people for behaving
the way one would expect under a given set of circumstances is not helping anything,
it's only making things worse.
> So we'll agree to disagree.
Or at least until you respond to this with the next bit of drivel.
Scram
and would be a senior this year in college. Give him some time to grow up.
Steve
"Increased Escalation Means Increased Threat"
George Velazquez wrote in message <7225fi$d8m$0...@206.19.125.153>...
VCU 3pt95
>Your credentials offer no more ability to shed perspective on this debate
>than I, Dave.
I think they do, Rob.
> You don't have to be Edward R. Murrow to
>land a job as sports director of a radio station. I'm not impressed.
Gee Dave, your attempt to impress Robert H. Wieman III has failed. Whatever are
you going to do now?
>Leaf -- not the media -- is responsible
>
>
Agreed. Media merely reports goings on.
>It almost seems as though you're questioning the watchdog for barking at
>the perpetrator, when it's the watchdog's job (and role in our society) to
>do so.
Rob, I don't know what part you are referring to, but I didn't get that
impression at all from Dave's post.
>Sounds like you need a media law refresher course, Dave.
Again, it is possible to make a point without being an asshole, Rob. It's these
condescending, "I'm better than you" remarks that have endeared you to this
this NG so fervently.
>And whether the story is a mountain or a molehill is for the readers and
>TV viewers to decide.
True.
>Judging from
>the actions of many readers and TV viewers in Washington state, many
>others think it's a mountain.
>
>
Fine. So Washington state and WSU are ga ga over any Leaf tidbit.
Understandable to a point. It does sound like it has been blown out of
proportion there. Nationally, who really gives a damn if he pissed off a few
college kids?
>Tell me this, Mr. Media Industry Insider:
Wow. You must have puzzled for hours to come up with that bit of sarcasm.
>> If your media source wants to sling mud (whether that mud is
>> deserved or not) at it's own alumni, then by all means, go right ahead.
>
>First, Leaf is not an alumnus of The Daily Evergreen, as your sentence
>structure suggests.
Dave works RADIO, not print media. Tit for tat, you however, did work in print
media. Therefore...
>Second, the campus newspaper is independent of the school. It pays for
>itself through advertising and is entirely student-run.
...as your sentence structure suggests, you have contradicted yourself. If it
is independent of the school completely, why are STUDENTS from the school
running it? Tit for tat, TAFKA II.
>> and B) it makes me very glad I never even considered going to your
>> school.
>
>The feeling is very mutual, Dave.
>
>
You just stay the hell away from the East Coast, ok??? Don't ever let us find
you in the ESPN zone in Baltimore.
>Donating money to WSU's athletic department does not excuse Leaf from the
>scrutiny of the public or the media if he chooses to go out and engage in
>questionable conduct elsewhere. End of story.
Was anybody debating this issue but Rob?
>he's fortunate there are a lot of other
>people who think as you do. Many of them, I'd suspect, reside in or near
>San Diego (or are Chargers fans).
Now that sounds like a crack on the city of SD and the Bolts fans. What the
hell? I don't like you Rob, and I'm certain that there are others in here that
wish you would go away.
>I just can't condone the behavior of Ryan Leaf last
>weekend, as you seem to do.
Was Dave ever saying that it is acceptable for Leaf to throw beer in someone's
face? I didn't read it that way at all.
>So we'll agree to disagree.
>
No, we will agree to agree that you, Robert H. Wieman III, A Proud WSU Cougar,
Class of 1999, are just as much of a jerk as Leaf. You just show it in a
different manner. Apparently, WSU's academic program must not be that
challenging, as evidenced by the inordinate amount of time you have spent
posting during this week. I suggest you get back to the books so that you can
graduate by 1999, with the minimum 2.0 GPA. If books aren't your thing these
days, then go back to being a klismaphiliac. It seems to be coming through loud
and clear in the NG...
Disrespectfully yours,
oz10
As for thinking harder about idolizing Ryan, well that's a different
story. I admire the kid on the field and what little I've read about
his comments regarding his play and his teammates. I could care less
about Ryan the human walking amongst us in malls, bars, etc. I'm a fan
of a team and support the players on the team and on the field only.
That's where it ends because their actions off the field are their own
business, good or bad.
What exactly was the purpose of your diatribe concerning Ryan? Not kiss
his feet as he walks by us? Not to bow down and ask for his autograph?
Idolization and admiration of ones talents are two different things.
Anyway, your thread was interesting but it's time to move on and let the
kid mature in his own way and time.
oz10
Go Bolts!!!
Rob Wieman III wrote:
>
> On 7 Nov 1998, randall wrote:
[snipped for space]
Rob Wieman III
> >You must be pretty important to have been empowered to speak for *most*
> >football fans, Stan.
> >
> Fine, argue over semantics now.... many,most, whatever.
My point was that thousands and perhaps millions of other people don't see
things as you do, including other Chargers fans.
> >> Until he goes out and OJ's a few people, I don't care what he does off
> >> the field.
> >
> >Oh, I see. Short of slicing the heads off of a few people, anything he
> >does off the field shouldn't be subjected to the scrutiny of the public
> >or the media. Sure.
>
> Not debating what the media should or shouldn't cover. I'm just saying that *I*
> (along with many others) don't really care what he does off the field, good or
> bad.(Personally, I feel the same way about Clinton; things in his personal life
> shouldn't matter when it comes to on the job tasks.) Great, he donated a
> boatload of dough....big deal. So, he threw a pitcher of beer at some college
> kids. Big deal. (As long as he didn't injure his right arm, I DON'T CARE.)
Fair enough. Why let it bother you so much then? For someone who doesn't
care (and I'm not saying you do), you seem to spend a lot of time
justifying (not defending) his behavior. Just an observation.
> Many, many, many people have done much worse, jock or not.
Absolutely.
> He's human. Is he a jerk? I am not arguing that point either. He
> probably is, but the Bolts pretty much knew that when they drafted him.
> For the fans that were a bit unsure, the KC/cameraman tirade pretty much
> convinced those who didn't think he was a prick.
True.
> >You have some interesting social standards on your planet, Stan.
>
> Yes I do, thank you very much. The first standard we set in my modern day
> utopia was to keep redundant cretins like you from living within 100 miles of
> us.
I can live with that. ;)
> >> Plus, he's still 22 years old! I remember being 22 once, and God
> >> knows I wasn't much different.
> >
> >That's your fault.
>
> I never did anything terribly wrong, but am man enough to admit that if I got
> rich quick, the money would probably go to my head too. Leaf was a jerk before
> the money, and now it may have compounded the problem.
I can't say I'd let the money go to my head as it has done with Leaf, but
I haven't walked in his shoes so I won't speculate. OK?
I agree with your assessment that perhaps the money has compounded an
underlying problem Leaf already had been dealing with.
> I've managed to make it through 23 years without
> >getting kicked out of a bar,
>
> What kind of fun are you?
Well, not much by your standards, I suppose.
> or being banned for life from a convenience
> >store,
>
> Oh my! For life? From a convenience store? In little old WSU territory?
> Ooooh...whatever will poor Ryan do?
I'm not saying Ryan will lose sleep over it. Nonetheless, it reflects
poorly on his character. That's all.
> or spitting at people, or throwing a pitcher of beer into a group
> >of people, or harassing women.
>
> Many of us have gotten drunk and done something wrong. It may be a difference
> in terms of degree, but inappropriate words/actions are still wrong. Are you
> saying you have NEVER hurt someone else's feelings?
Absolutely not. I'm saying I never did the things Ryan did in public last
weekend. And if I did, I'd hope others would have the good sense to label
me a "jerk," and I'd take full responsibility for my actions -- drunken or
not. Hopefully, I'd salvage some respect for admitting my mistakes.
> >I suppose I'm the rare exception to the "youth rule" though, right?
>
> If you are the supposed saint you claim to be, I'll nominate you to take over
> for Mother Theresa, pansy boy.
Surely you can do better than "pansy boy." ;)
Again, I'm hardly a saint.
> Hey, I don't care if he played for Dallas. (Hell, he may have fit in better in
> Dallas a coupla years back...)
Whoa. We can't agree *enough* on that one! :)
> I can't stand repeated "personal life" stories about anybody in the
> public eye.
Clinton included? Should the media forget about the Lewinsky thing?
What about when Charles Barkley implants a fist into a bar patron? Just
wondering where you think the line should be drawn.
> So long as whatever the bad deeds were do not affect on the job
> performance, I could care less.
The Lewinsky thing didn't affect Clinton's job performance, did it?
Barkley's altercations don't affect his job performance either, even if
they do break the law.
Leaf's actions in Pullman violated public nuisance laws and, if we want to
get literal, harassment laws. He was lucky the police weren't called.
But he's just a 22-year-old kid, right? The police have better things
to do than enforce pesky things like that, right? ;)
> If you are in jail (like Bam Morris), then obviously you can't be on the
> field, and therefore the deed must have been more than a minor
> infraction of the law.
OK, so it has to be a *serious* infraction of the law -- enough to
warrant jail time -- to apply to a young, star athlete. The less serious
infractions are for the "little people" like me and you. I get it now.
> >At least most people on this newsgroup can look at the facts
> >objectively and conclude that Leaf made some foolish mistakes.
>
> Leaf has made some foolish mistakes? Surely you jest....
Sarcasm. I like that. :)
> >The "who
> >cares what he does off the field" school of thought simply reeks of
> >ignorance, and it demonstrates just how narrow-minded a fan you really
> >*are*.
>
> Oh. I see, I am the newsgroup ingnoramus as appointed by the "holier than thou"
> Rob, proud WSU fan.
Sigh. I never called you the "newsgroup ignoramus," and I won't. I just
think it's ignorant to tunnel your vision (hence the "narrow-minded"
remark) to only the football field, and to *ignore* what happens off it.
However, I respect your decision, even if I think it overlooks some
important factors relating to Mr. Leaf.
> On the contrary, you imbecilic autistic fecalphiliac.
OK, that's better. "Pansy boy" was pretty weak, but the "fecalphiliac"
thing gives it some muscle. ;)
> It demonstrates how OPEN minded I am. I am a fan of the Chargers
> football team when they are PLAYING FOOTBALL, which is what they get
> paid to do.
So you're "open-minded" to the extent that you care *only* about what
happens *on* the field. I'm sorry, but the statement itself seems
contradictory.
> That's what the ticket sales are for, to pay salaries, not to be role
> models when off the field.
Agreed. Nonetheless, they are citizens, and as such must be held to the
same behavioral standards as the rest of us ... *off* the field.
> Are they role models to kids? Unfortunately, yes. (See Charles
> Barkley's, "I am not a role model" commercial from the early 90's...)
I wrote a commentary on it several years ago. I agree with what he said
in the commercial, but that's not the way our society works.
> Would I want my kid to grow up like Leaf? No. If he had that killer arm,
> I'd sure as hellfire knock some sense into his dome before he got too
> big for his britches.
Fair enough.
> So, if in YOUR narrow-mindedness, you consider me ignorant, well....I'm
> rubber you're glue....whatever bounces off of me sticks to you....Nyah,
> nyah, nyah!
Now *that's* mature.
> (I figured I should make a statement that your pea sized
> cerebrum could comprehend. For the rest of the NG, I just called him
> ignorant right back....)
You're entitled to think I'm ignorant. I won't call you childish names
for it.
> >I bet you embrace positive news about Leaf's off-the-field behavior, such
> >as his donation in Rypien's name. Am I right?
> >
> No, you're wrong yet again. Sure it was a nice gesture, but I could care less.
> It didn't affect his play on the field, did it?
Nope. I was wrong to suggest you'd embrace the positive news while
ignoring the negative. OK?
> >At 22? I don't think so. By the way, adulthood begins at 18
>
> So you've never met a 45 year old that couldn't handle him/herself?
Of course I have. But he was held responsible for his behavior, and his
age/maturity level wasn't a factor.
> Watch "COPS" just one time (unless you've been ON the show before, in
> which case you have firsthand knowledge about prisons and
> "misbehavior"...)
Well, no, but my minor *is* criminal justice, and I *have* worked the
police beat for a metropolitan daily ...
> There are alot of 16 year olds that are more mature than you or I.
Agreed.
> The curve is diffrent for everyone based on their individual set of
> circumstances and experience.
So, because of this curve, should a 45-year-old man who "can't handle
himself" be held to different laws and behavioral standards as the
"very mature" 16-year-old you mentioned above?
How can we draw a curve that accurately suits every person in society? We
can't. That's why we hold everyone to the same laws, the same ordinances,
the same standards, etc. Leaf is no exception, regardless his exceptional
circumstances (fame, fortune, status, etc.).
> >Which
> >means he is legally bound to behave like one in public, or suffer the
> >consequences in the event that he does not. He didn't, and he's suffering
> >the consequences
>
> Well, how's that? A few "bad" media reports?
No. The negative stigma that comes with such behavior. His image has
suffered because of it, and I'm willing to bet both thumbs that Leaf's
capacity to draw endorsements has also suffered because of it. Thus, his
behavior has almost certainly hurt him financially *and* socially.
> I doubt it's hurting Ryan's feelings.
Maybe not. You'd like to think it will make him think twice before he
behaves as he did again, though.
> If he *REALLY* did all of the things reported, I am certain that
> there will be legal ramifications for the beer throwing incident among others.
> We shall see if there are any monetary settlements in the near future...
Perhaps. I'll let you know if I hear anything.
> Should he be responsible for his actions? Certainly.
OK, so we have *some* common ground to stand on. :)
> > He's not a
> >"kid" anymore, and he shouldn't be able to use his age to shield himself
> >from our social standards
>
> Again, not excusing his behavior due to his age.
Then why is his age an issue with you?
> He is going to make mistakes,
> regardless of how old or young he is. Just that in the normal learning curve,
> we all tend to make more mistakes in our youth.
Agreed. He should suffer as any other adult would for making them,
however. That's also part of the learning curve (i.e. learning from your
mistakes).
> >It seems that there are countless hotshot rookie NFL players who come and
> >go every year without making a$$e$ of themselves off the field. What's
>
> It also seems that there are countless veteran players who make dumb mistakes
> every year. (Pick a sport, any sport....people are people, and will always
> continue to make mistakes.)
No argument here. You're absolutely right.
> >It's quite possible to be humble and to carry yourself with dignity in
> >light of good fortune, Stan.
>
> Ya know, I really don't like it when you use my name in your post. It sounds
> really condescending. It's quite possible to make a point without being an
> asshole, Rob.
Even though you contradict yourself by using my name in the same sentence,
I will honor your request. Again, I never meant to be an a$$hole, but I
wasn't going to back down when pushed, either. I have been pushed more
than once by various members of the newsgroup. Fine.
> >There's that word again: "Kid." Let me ask you this: At what age do we
> >cease to be "kids"? Is it relative?
>
> I refer to him as "Kid" because he is YOUNGER and seemingly less mature than
> me. It's a term. Get used to it; people use it all the time. Is he a baby boy
> just because Seau calls him "Baby Boy"?
You made your point. So, should all people deemed "kids" (younger and
seemingly less mature people) be held to different standards than other
(more mature) people?
> > At what point
> >in our lives are we *all* held to the same social/behavioral standards?
> >The law says age 18.
>
> The law has undergone new interpretations (thank you very much), as evidenced
> by adolescents doing life terms, and even death row sentences for their crimes.
Those "new" interpretations apply *only* in cases in which persons under
the age of 18 commit *felonies*. Not misdemeanors or minor infractions.
> I say I'd like to see you call Leaf a jerk to his face.
Why bother? It's nothing he hasn't heard before.
> >I have no problem with how Leaf carries himself *on* the field, mind you.
> >His behavior there is entirely appropriate
>
> Then you haven't been watching the games. Throwing an interception is a
> behavior that he has mastered.
True. But whether it's appropriate depends on which team you're rooting
for.
> >> You know what, it's one thing that I am sick of these nonsensical unrelated
> >> reports.
> >
> >Unrelated to what? Leaf's a football player for the San Diego Chargers.
> >That's all the relation we need.
>
> Hey, as long as there is media, we will have these stories. I just stated that
> I am sick of them, as they have little to do with PLAYING football. Would it be
> nice if Leaf were a wonderful man? Sure, but what does it have to do with
> throwing a football?
Nothing. It's part of the package many people call "Ryan Leaf," however.
If you want break him down into "Ryan Leaf the football player" and "Ryan
Leaf the person" and ignore the latter, you're entitled to do so. OK?
---------------------------------
Rob Wieman
A Proud WSU Cougar, Class of 1999
---------------------------------
There. Does it sound less "pompous" without the "ert" and the "H." and
the "III"? :)
Rob Wieman III
> >rob, you are being a jerk. perhaps a low-level jerk, but a jerk
> >nonetheless.
>
> No, no Randall, you've got it all wrong. Here, let me give you an excerpt from
> the computer based GRE's...
>
> Leaf : Jerk as Rob :
> a. Shithead
> b. Cretin
> c. Pedophile
> d. Kid
> e. All of the above
>
> (Somewhat atypical of GRE's to have an all of the above answer in an analogy
> question, but I think "e" is the correct answer.)
Your letting your bitterness cloud your rationale. You made some very
good points in your last post, but you're digressing here.
> >now. you want to keep calling leaf a jerk, you are absolutely right,
>
> See, Rob? You've made your point. We think Leaf IS a jerk to some degree.
That wasn't my point. Oh, well ...
> > i also happen to dislike college
> >kids posting in the san diego chargers' professional football newsgroup for
> >reasons i cannot figure out.
>
> See, Rob, we think you are a jerk as well.
Fine. I'll sleep fine tonight.
> >you've made your point that you were able to
> >research a news item and publish it in a reasonably competent manner. so.
>
> See, Rob, we think you made a good initial post. Now go away.
Soon enough. Others happen to be engaging in intelligent conversation
with me. I appreciate that, and I'll leave when the discussion is
finished. OK? :)
> > we're not
> >telling you "you must stop". we're telling you, it'd be real pleasant if
> >you did.
>
> No Randall, I'm telling him to get the fuck out, no sugar coating it here.
Sigh. And I thought public forums were created to harbor a variety of
opinions, not just opinions *everyone* agrees with or is comfortable with.
> > and, i apologize for replying on this thread,
>
> >I will not post on it again.
>
> Me too Randall, as soon as I make a few more comments on another one of his
> "bashing the NG people" posts.
Or *several* more comments on *several* more posts. Close enough.
Seems you're the one doing the bashing.
Simon
column.
Sgt. Riggs wrote in message ...
>I find it interesting that you will Defend his rediculous behavior since he
>plays for the Chargers, but that is what he expects. He'll act like a
>jerk, make millions, and you'll defend him and pay to see it.
>
>
>
Simon
alleged behavior. By the way, I'm not a "Bolts" fan....you did notice that
you posted this in 2 NGs...right? Why don't you try picking on some real
criminals and not a 22 year old that was acting like a jerk. I'm sure WSU
has PLENTY of football players/students that are
"getting away with" a crime of some sort.
Rob Wieman III wrote in message ...
Alig8orMan
make what...40k maybe 50k if he is lucky? Unless daddy has a cushy job for him
back home. Leaf can wipe his ass with 50k and not even think about it. I think
Rob has penis envy.
I also think Rob missed the ride on Halle Bop. But in Pullman if someone passes
gas its front page stuff, so following Leaf must be like someone gambling and
losing in Washington State.
Joe
sta...@home.com
be forgetting is that"
1) As Chargers fans, we are naturally more up to speed on Leaf than any
other group.
2) RW is exhibiting the common trait of a sore loser when his arguments
don't hold up.
Hope he gets over it for his sake....pretty arrogant.
I think the topic has been exhausted.
Scott
ROBDON33
about his feelings of Leaf, and Hacksaw may be right on the money, calling him
"kid" and so on.
Makes you all wish Stan Humphries was still with the Chargers. :( I wish he
was still there too.
sta...@home.com
<sta...@home.com> wrote in message news:...
>Although his article at first was partly interesting, the thing RW seems to
>be forgetting is that"
>
>1) As Chargers fans, we are naturally more up to speed on Leaf than any
>other group.
By knowing all sides of the situation and spending the time to do so.
Patrick C Miller
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network
Distribution:
Rob Wieman III (wie...@wsunix.wsu.edu) wrote:
: I guarantee that if Leaf did the same things in a bar in San Diego, it'd
: make headlines there, too.
I don't know that you can make such a guarantee. How do you know that
he hasn't already done some of these same things in San Diego bars?
: I don't think the media labeled him a "jerk," and no media were following
: Leaf around last weekend. None of the writers in the story said he was
: a "jerk," but merely stated the facts as reported by witnesses.
Uh, yeah, they have labeled him a jerk and punk, among other things.
One writer described some of his college behavior as a "reign of terror."
That's a bit over the top, don't you think? And what about the header
that you, a member of the media, gave to this thread?
: As for whether the public decided his actions warrant the label "jerk,"
: well, that's another question.
A question that you and others in the media have already asked and
answered.
: The fact that they were arrogant and flamboyant? No. But if they
: returned to their college town and caused a public ruckus (as Leaf did),
: the college newspaper would certainly find that newsworthy.
Unless they were charged with a crime, I seriously doubt it.
: No. It's up to the media to report violations of social/behavioral
: standards for *all* society. The media, at least in the U.S., is
: self-regulated because if the government had the power of censorship, we
: never would hear about the Monica Lewinskys. The media report; the people
: decide what to think about it.
Nice idealistic BS. I remember when I was a journalism major and
actually believed all that stuff. Then I got job on a real newspaper and
learned the difference between what I was taught in college and how the
real world works. Some day, you will too.
Let me ask you something. What was your purpose in posting the Daily
Evergreen article about Leaf on this newsgroup? What is your purpose of
continuing this debate? Are you doing an article about Charger fans'
reaction to your story? Or are you one a one-man crusade to convince
Charger fans that Leaf is an even bigger jerk than they already knew he
was?
VCU 3pt95
>To ignore unacceptable behavior is worse than the behavior itself. To
>ignore it is to condone it.
As applicable to this thread/Leaf, this quote is not accurate. Football fans
can certainly choose to "ignore" as you say poor behavior. Just because someone
chooses to ignore it, doesn't mean they condone it. I doubt there is anyone in
this NG that condones Leaf's inappropriate behavior thus far. Football fans
aren't the ones that are important in terms of ignoring/condoning behavior. The
proper authorities (ie police, NFL rules violations committees, etc) are the
ones that should be paying close attention to any misdeeds, not the fans. If
the"authorities" start ignoring it, then your above quote is certainly
applicable.
Zzzzzzzip.
Patrick C Miller
lis.net> <Pine.OSF.3.95.981107...@unicorn.it.wsu.edu>:
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network
Distribution:
Rob Wieman III (wie...@wsunix.wsu.edu) wrote:
: Yes, but my point was that the paper had the *right* (legally) to report
: on Leaf's activities, and that he fit the courts' definition of
: "newsworthy."
Oh brother! Nobody is questioning the newspaper's legal right to print
the story.
: Insulting the people of Washington state isn't going to get you anywhere.
: They outnumber you substantially.
Yeah, Dave, you really should be insulting North Dakotans. There's only
650,000 of us. At least you'd have a fighting chance. :-)
: Who said we don't cover starving people, murders, and the government?
: Should we just focus on those topics and ignore the local and
: regional news?
No, I think what he's saying that you might do the public more good
if you focused on covering news that really matters.
: Why can't a newspaper cover a diverse range of topics?
: That is, after all, how newspapers sell. If people want to read only
: about starving people, murders, and the government, they'll subscribe to
: Time magazine. If they want local news, they'll pick up the local
: newspaper.
So what you're saying is that Ryan Leaf's behavior is one of the most
important issues facing the greater Pullman area and WSU? If so, I
imagine that some future headlines in the Evergreen might be:
Sources confirm Ryan leaf still a jerk!
Local woman claims Leaf gave her dirty look
Leaf makes 7-11's 10 least-wanted list
Police say Leaf could have exceeded speed limit
Internet rumor: Leaf laughs at disadvantaged people
New charges: Leaf once kicked dog, stole baby's candy
Move to impeach Leaf gains momentum
Reno eyes special prosecutor for Leaf spitting incident
Co-ed confesses: "I secretly touched Ryan's big bill!"
Charger fans forgive their bad-boy QB
Leaf plans to buy WSU, then sell it
Gates says Leaf urged him to crush Apple
Market dips following latest Leaf scandal
Leaf poor tipper, bartender alleges
Ryan refuses to turn over a new Leaf
Beathard spanks Leaf, grounds him for one week
Evidence mounts: Leaf leaves toilet seat up
: No. It had broad implications because about 26,000 people in this small
: city were talking about it (and were, therefore, affected by it).
Ryan Leaf threw beer on 26,000 people? Does that kid have an arm or
what?!!! ;-)
: As it turns out, far more people *statewide* were interested in it as
: well. Leaf is a very popular "hometown hero" here; when he's disruptive
: and harasses people, the people around here talk about it.
Is it news when the locals harass him?
: And remember, just because you and a select number of other people don't
: think his behavior is news doesn't mean it *isn't* news. Nobody said you
: have to *like* it.
Nobody said we had to agree with your definition of news. You
apparently can't get past that.
: No, but if a celebrity does something in public that isn't acceptable by
: community/societal standards, it should be reported (and, more often than
: not, *will* be reported). The same might not apply to a non-celebrity or
: non-public figure. Is that unfair? Perhaps. But it's the way the media
: work, like it or not.
Correction: It's the way the media chooses to work in select instances.
If it applied the same standard to all public figures, that's all we'd
ever hear about or read about. Clearly, the media picks and chooses its
targets.
: The press didn't condemn Leaf. The public did.
Have you polled the public about this? My guess is that very few people
in the public really give a damn about Leaf's off-field behavior.
Subic Sailor
keithjdallas wrote in message <364329d0...@news.nstar.net>...
:Perhaps what it comes down to is that most of us really couldn't care
:less about his off-field behavior.
But if it was say for example, an opposing coach of a team with more wins
than yours and plays in Oakland, then off field behavior is fair game for
ridicule,eh?
It's what he does over the next
:few years that will determine whether or not we will defend or pay to
:see him. There have been plenty of "model citizen" QBs off the field
:that don't amount to much on the field. Hopefully, Leaf won't be one
:of them. I would much rather have a cocky, jerk-of-a-QB that brings a
:championship to San Diego.
:
:And, by the way, I didn't see anybody DEFENDING his ridiculous
:behavior.
:
:>I find it interesting that you will Defend his rediculous behavior since
:>
:>
:
Max G Roshensky
Hey Rob, let me ask you this....Has Ryan Leaf broken any laws?
Not to my knowledge, but then again I'm an engineering student so I don't
get out much.
If they're misdemeanors or felonies or just fines I'd like to know because
those are fact upon which I can then base my opinion.
Once he breaks the law I'll condem him, until then it's just people
agreeing or disagreeing wiht an attitude. The attitude of an athlete off
the field is not IMHO newsworthy from a day to day perspective. To learn
about an athletes off the field life and how that attributed to his play/
attitude on the field, that's newsworthy.
--Max Roshensky
Charger Faithful
Dave Taylor
George Velazquez wrote:
> I'm sick of everybody making excuses for Ryan Leaf. I live in San Diego and
> have to listen to every idiot try to defend him. The guy is a loser, and he
> doesn't appear to be making any improvements. I agree with Rob's comments
> 100%.
I am a native of San Diego and I think the guy (Leaf) is a winner and I disagree
with Rob's statement 100%. So where does that leave us?
I guess that's what makes the world go 'round, eh?
And about improvements, did ya see the Seahawks game or the Eagles game?
Dave Taylor
As I was on my way to a basketball game at my school last night, my fiancee and I
were discussing this thread and young Mr. Rob here. I explained to her what was going
on and she, being the voice of reason in my head, said that I really had better
things to waste my time on so here's my last on this issue.
Despite Rob's claims to the contrary;
The article was written to be inflammatory.
Rob Posted it here to piss off Charger fans - Can there be another reason?
(Don't answer that as I don't wish to persue this any further)
Rob is an asshole. It is my assumption that this stems from being beaten up by a lot
of jocks in high school and then, getting to college, found the paper and thus, some
imagined power and then resolved to use this "power" to go after any jock or anyone
else he didn't like (but that's strictly conjecture. He could be an asshole for
wholly different reasons)
Rob is a young man who has not had the benefit of being out in the real world (as
those of us paying for homes and supporting families know it) and is barely out of
the adolescent, know-it-all phase of his life. This is not a bad thing, we all went
through it but we also have to take that into account when getting ourselves into a
debate with him. Hopefully for him, growing up will also cure the asshole syndrome he
seems to suffer from.
Rob does in no way shape or form speak for the good people of Washington State (be
that the college or the actual state) and it is my belief that his assesment of
public opinion up there is not what he says it is. I have been to Washington, I know
some people from up there and they're good people who wish their own well and know
what's a real life issue and what's not.
Has RL done some bad things? Sure. He didn't bring him to San Diego because he's a
saint. Like Rob, he needs time to grow. I do not condone what he's done, but then
again, I don't condone some of the things I've done either.
As for the whole "who knows the news better" issue, The college teaches you one thing
and then when you get out there in the jungle, you learn something totally different.
We all know how that works.
And, last but not least, thanks to the folks who have supported me in this, including
the folks from North Dakota. If there's nothing else I like more, it's reading "Dave
Taylor was right" :)
You can respond to this if you want to, but I'm done and I recommend the same action
to the rest of you (hint, hint Stan). Me, I'm going to continue talking about Charger
football, wishing my favorite QB (our baby boy Leaf) the best, getting ready for my
trip to San Diego in January and hoping and praying that we don't get anyone injured
today against the Broncos.
Here's to a good game....
Raymond E. Feist
<sub...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>keithjdallas wrote in message <364329d0...@news.nstar.net>...
>:Perhaps what it comes down to is that most of us really couldn't care
>:less about his off-field behavior.
>
>But if it was say for example, an opposing coach of a team with more wins
>than yours and plays in Oakland, then off field behavior is fair game for
>ridicule,eh?
Different. If Leaf got popped by the cops for doing something illegal,
then you can build an argument if people chose to ignore that.
Ryan wasn't popped for DUI. He was observed being loud and boisterous
while someone else who was with him was obnoxious and combative.
As said upstream: a loug, obnoxious 22 year old jock is not exactly news.
Now, if he had assaulted someone, set fire to the place, denounced
Democracy, been arrested for riotous behavior, drove his car into a bus
full of nuns while he was smoking crack, beat up his date, etc. that would
have been newsworthy. Being a snotty loud suddenly rich kid in public
isn't
Best, R.E.F.
Raymond E. Feist
Rob Wieman III <wie...@wsunix.wsu.edu> wrote:
>Anybody else happen to see the "Inside the Huddle" report by Chris
>Mortensen on SportsCenter last night?
>
>Apparently, Washingtonians and WSU students weren't the only ones
>concerned about Ryan Leaf's behavior in Pullman last weekend. According
>to Mortensen, June Jones met with Leaf about the incidents last week and
>told the quarterback that "he'd better start cleaning up his act."
>
>Doesn't sound like your typical "you're only 22, Ryan, so it's no big
>deal" kind of chat to me. It's refreshing to see that the Chargers coach
>has the sense to confront the situation rather than ignore it, as some
>fans choose to do. Props to Jones.
>
>Just thought I'd let all who missed it know.
>
>Your thoughts/excuses/hasty explanations welcome.
As I said when this started, it must have been a slow news day.
It's a "nonstory." The campus rag isn't the first newspaper of any
standard to run a "nonstory," or even to run it above the fold on the
front page. US newspapers have been doing that since Franklin inked up
his first press.
It still doesn't change it from being a nonstory.
22 year old sports figure acts rude in public.
Nonstory.
Then, as is the wont of those who choose to feature such non-news, they
say, "But it must be news, because we put it in the newspaper. It's a
newspaper, not a "nonnewspaper."
What logicians call "Reification."
Just because it references itself doesn't make it a valid argument.
The fact is the kid did nothing illegal. He was, at worst, guilty of bad
tastes.
If bad taste was a newsorthy quality, we'd see cover stories on half the
people at a Monday Nite Nitro show or your local Country and Western
saloon. Half the actors in the film business and most of the singers on
the top 40 would be defending their choice in hair dressers and clothing
stores.
If bad taste was a crime, millions of people who have purchased Elvis
collector's plates or bullfighters on black velvet paintings would be
answering chargers.
But Ryan Leaf's rude behavior isn't news. If the (soon to be ex-) Speaker
of the House said, "Fuck the Democrats" to Harry Smith at CBS, THAT would
be news. A rich football jock shouting out in a campus bar isn't news.
That's called context.
Best, R.E.F.
Dagwood
Simon wrote in message <723bei$b05$1...@supernews.com>...
>I wasn't "defending" him you moron... It was never PROVEN that he did the
>alleged behavior.
"alleged behavior"? Are you a lawyer or are you a sportscaster, they are
the only ones that use that terminology.
ps don't get mad, I am only teasing, the comment is meant in fun.
Raymond E. Feist
"sta...@home.com" <Xsta...@home.com> wrote:
>Although his article at first was partly interesting, the thing RW seems to
>be forgetting is that"
>
>1) As Chargers fans, we are naturally more up to speed on Leaf than any
>other group.
>
>2) RW is exhibiting the common trait of a sore loser when his arguments
>don't hold up.
>
>Hope he gets over it for his sake....pretty arrogant.
>I think the topic has been exhausted.
>
>
>
>Scott
Agreed.
And RW doesn't realize that the suggestion he's being credible goes out
the window when he chooses the topic header under which to post. Had he
titled the post "More News On Leaf," or "Ryan Leaf in Pullman," he might
have had a shred of credibility.
But posting "Leaf article confirms his "jerk" status" about as "objective"
as a right wing paper putting up a headline that says, "Latest Clinton
Revelation Proves Unfitness To Lead," or a left wing journal saying
"Gingritch Revealed As Incompetent Leader By Latest Vote."
The accuracy or inaccuracy of the supporting data is not the issue. The
agenda of the writer is more likely to be an issue.
In the Leaf story, the entire thing is a non-issue.
Best, R.E.F.
Patrick C Miller
: > I don't know that you can make such a guarantee. How do you know that
: > he hasn't already done some of these same things in San Diego bars?
: He may indeed have. That doesn't mean the media knew about it.
You should also consider the possibility that they knew about it, but
chose not to report on it because they didn't think it was newsworthy.
: > : I don't think the media labeled him a "jerk," and no media were following
: > : Leaf around last weekend. None of the writers in the story said he was
: > : a "jerk," but merely stated the facts as reported by witnesses.
: >
: > Uh, yeah, they have labeled him a jerk and punk, among other things.
: Not the writers of the article (from The Daily Evergreen) in question.
Read your own statement. You said the media in general, not the
Evergreen in particular.
: > One writer described some of his college behavior as a "reign of terror."
: > That's a bit over the top, don't you think?
: Regardless whether I think that's "over the top," the writer was not from
: The Daily Evergreen. I'm not defending any other stories about Ryan Leaf,
: only the one that broke the news about his activities in Pullman last
: weekend. As for whether Leaf was treated unfairly in other articles, I
: don't know.
Again, you said that you didn't think that the media had labled Leaf a
jerk. My comment was in reference to what some in the media have said
about Leaf in the past, not about the Evergreen reporters.
: > And what about the header that you, a member of the media, gave to this
: > thread?
: It's my opinion. Opinions are what people talk about in newsgroups and
: other public forums. I wouldn't incorporate my opinion into a news story
: I had written.
But you are a member of the media and you publicly stated that, in your
opinion, Ryan Leaf is a jerk. And if you have made up your mind that Leaf
is a jerk, how do you know that your opinion won't influence your
decisions as to what is newsworthy and affect your ability to report on
him objectively?
: > Unless they were charged with a crime, I seriously doubt it.
: Crimes aren't the only negative events considered "newsworthy" by the
: media.
Look, do you think that Leaf is the very first ex-WSU football player to
return to Pullman and engage in boorish behavior? Isn't it possible that
other ex-WSU football stars have done the same thing or worse and that it
hasn't made the papers? If so, your football players are real saints
compared to the college football players I've known.
: > Nice idealistic BS. I remember when I was a journalism major and
: > actually believed all that stuff. Then I got job on a real newspaper and
: > learned the difference between what I was taught in college and how the
: > real world works.
: What's "BS" about what I wrote? Or is it "BS" simply because you and
: your experiences say so?
I say that this is BS based on my experience: "The media report; the
people decide what to think about it."
: I've worked for five newspapers and two radio stations in the past five
: years. The "real world" has proven not altogether different from what I
: have been prepared for in college.
Sounds like you have trouble holding a job. ;-) If you've had that much
experience and still believe that what you've learned in college is the
same as the "real world," then I would suggest that you haven't had much
practical experience.
: > Let me ask you something. What was your purpose in posting the Daily
: > Evergreen article about Leaf on this newsgroup?
: I knew some newsgroup members would be interested in reading it, and many
: were. It's that simple. I didn't expect everyone to accept it with open
: arms. I knew there would be some bitter backlash, as nobody likes to hear
: negative news about someone they support. Denial, anger, frustration,
: acceptance -- I've seen an entire spectrum of emotion in a span of three
: days. You'll get over it.
Get over what? I don't deny that Leaf's behavior has been immature and
I don't condone it. I agree that it would be better for the team and
better for his career if he would stop doing these things.
But, as has been demonstrated in this newsgroup, different people have
different levels of tolerance for such behavior. My impression is that
most fans here don't like what Leaf did, but they're willing to give him
another chance in the hope that he will mature and learn to better deal
with fame, fortune and the public spotlight. Why should that surprise
you?
: > What is your purpose of continuing this debate?
: I find different responses interesting for different reasons. You will
: notice, of course, that I'm not the only individual participating in this
: debate. What, dare I ask, is their purpose in continuing it?
I think some of us were hoping to talk some sense into you. Obviously,
that's not going to happen.
Douglas Briggs
On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 07:23:19 -0800, ray...@bittersea.com (Raymond E. Feist)
wrote:
:Ryan wasn't popped for DUI. He was observed being loud and boisterous
:while someone else who was with him was obnoxious and combative.
In a 'legal' sense, Ryan's behavior is ALLEGED. From the article written it
is difficult to determine who actually instigated the incident from heresay,
and any football player I personally know would find it difficult to back down
from a direct challenge against himself or a friend.
That being said, IF the story is accurate, I would be inclined to think less
of Leaf's public persona for these antics but I fail to see how this should
affect his on field performance nor my appreciation of it.
(trimmed)
:
:Now, if he had assaulted someone, set fire to the place, denounced
:Democracy, been arrested for riotous behavior, drove his car into a bus
:full of nuns while he was smoking crack, beat up his date, etc. that would
:have been newsworthy. Being a snotty loud suddenly rich kid in public
:isn't
:
Thank you Ray, for putting this into proper perspective.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.
:
:Best, R.E.F.
Regards, Doug.
Raymond E. Feist
(Douglas Briggs) wrote:
One should also point out that given the paper was repeating what people
said, rather than eyewitness accounts, editors I've known over the last
thirty plus years would have spiked the piece as being "gossip."
Best, R.E.F.
Kevin Napolitano
:other people who think as you do. Many of them, I'd suspect, reside in or
:near San Diego (or are Chargers fans).
:
:Some, like myself, are fed up with the preferential status/treatment
:of "holier-than-thou" pro athletes such as Leaf.
< major snips. apologies if I snipped something I shouldn't have...>
:Put words in my mouth if it pleases you, Dave. I'm not perfect, nor
:have I ever claimed to be. I just can't condone the behavior of Ryan
:Leaf last weekend, as you seem to do. Nor do I believe his age should shield
:him from our scritiny.
:
:So we'll agree to disagree.
:---------------------------------
:Robert H. Wieman III
:A Proud WSU Cougar, Class of 1999
:---------------------------------
From the perspective of a Charger fan here, who cares if
Leaf is a jerk? I know alot of jerks who don't get written
up in the newspaper and I know alot of good guys who also
don't get written up. Also, there are many people who give
$200,000 contributions to many causes and they aren't
reported in the news.
Now, where exactly is the preferential status/treatment of Leaf
coming from?? EVERY single dumb thing he does gets fully published
in every single newspaper across the country. But the facts are
that many, many college students are rude idiots when drunk, but
I don't see them written up even in the school newspaper.
It is only because Leaf is a sports celebrity that he gets
written up in any newspaper. Take the story for what it's
worth. The guy is young and he's a jerk. We all knew that
coming in. Do you go to movies whose stars are assholes or
do you boycott them? None of your friends are jerks when drunk?
In short, Leaf does not get preferential treatment. In fact,
he is more intensely scrutinized by the media such as yourself.
Probably, the preferential treatment athletes receive at WSU
comes from the fact that they bring in $$ and name recognition
to a school in the middle of nowhere but aren't paid a dime
for all the income they generate.
(It's cheap to go to a state school, so I don't want to hear anything
about the free scholarship deal.)
kevin
kevin
Kevin Napolitano
: standards for *all* society. The media, at least in the U.S., is
: self-regulated because if the government had the power of censorship, we
: decide what to think about it.
To be completely honest, you should write the above phrase:
"No. It's up to the media to report violations of social/behavioral
standards for *all* FAMOUSE PEOPLE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT SELLS."
: The media, at least in the U.S., is
: self-regulated because if the government had the power of censorship, we
: never would hear about the Monica Lewinskys. The media report; the people
: decide what to think about it.
If Monica Lewinsky had consexual "sexual relations" with me when
she was my employee, no newspaper would ever have printed the story.
:)
So, be honest and take your moralizing "preferential treatment"
bs out of your argument. Your school newspaper printed the story
because that is what people want to read. Plain and simple.
Freedom of the press is important. However, the media consistently
abuses this right. However, the abuses are tolerable in light of the
consequences of a sensored media.
kevin
Kevin Napolitano
:[Leaf is guilty of bad taste ]
:If bad taste was a crime, millions of people who have purchased Elvis
:collector's plates or bullfighters on black velvet paintings would
:be answering chargers.
apparently not, the chargers seem to tolerate bad taste (such as
Leaf's). :)
kevin
Raymond E. Feist
>Rob,
>
>The reason you have attracted hostility in this newsgroup is not because of
>blind loyalty to the Chargers but because this newsgroup is periodically
>invaded by WSU students who bring a lot of negativity with them.
>
>At least you seem to display more intelligence in your posts than most of
>your fellow students, whose posts are generally mere variations on the "Ryan
>Sux! U Charger fans got urself a Looser!" theme and are unfortunatly of the
>same level of low intelligence.
>
>Its not that people here object to every little negative comment about Charger
>players such as Leaf. It's just that folks here tire of hearing the same
>message repeated over and over again.
And if I may add, especially under the mask of "journalistic
objectivity." This is a fan group, and by it's very nature, the bias is
toward wishing success for the Home Team (with the exception of Iceberg,
but then he has his own quirky agenda for being here and people are used
to and amused by his schtick). Anyone who wanders in and claims an
opinion, such as "I know this kid and he's got wires crossed," is fair
game for a debate. Anyone who walks in and claims, "I have objective
evidence that Leaf is a jerk because of A, B, C, and D, and I'm in a
position of unassailable veracity," better bring along video tape of Leaf
planting a bomb at a US Embassy or proving he was the second gunman on the
grassy knoll, because "objectivity" is never a serious commodity here.
Backing up your opinion is OK. Claiming it's Truth is likely to get you
handed your head.
Best, R.E.F.
Fillard Millmore
<wie...@wsunix.wsu.edu> wrote:
>> : There's that word again: "Kid." Let me ask you this: At what age do we
>> : cease to be "kids"? Is it relative? In other words, did I cease to be a
>> : "kid" at 18, while Ryan Leaf continues to be a "kid" at 22? At what point
>> : in our lives are we *all* held to the same social/behavioral standards?
>> : The law says age 18. What do you say, Stan?
>>
I'm not Stan, but I say it's when you start acting like an adult.
You, young man, have a ways to go. But you won't realize that until
you arrive there.
>> Oh, so now it's up to the media to enforce social/behavioral standards
>> for *all* society?
>
>No. It's up to the media to report violations of social/behavioral
>standards for *all* society. The media, at least in the U.S., is
>self-regulated because if the government had the power of censorship, we
>never would hear about the Monica Lewinskys. The media report; the people
>decide what to think about it.
>
Only the media think it is up to them to report such "violations" and
then cloak themselves in constitutional protections and toss around
high-sounding phrases like "the people's right to know".
>> If that's the case, why hasn't the media done more to
>> drive Bill Clinton, the poster child for boorish behavior, out of office
>> office? Nice double standard there, Rob.
>
I think Don Henley explained it pretty well. Say, Rob. Are you a
bleached blonde?
>I'd say the media has been right on top of the Clinton situation. But it
>isn't the media's role to "drive" him from office. The people will or
>will not do that. The media merely report what happened, or is purported
>to have happened.
>
Are you saying that you actually think the media bias is a myth, and
that it reports objectively on matters of importance to the people it
purports to serve so unselfishly? Maybe your road to maturity is gonna
be a little longer than I first thought. Rob.
Fillard Millmore
Resident of the United States
Fillard Millmore
super...@my-dejanews.com
Rob Wieman III <wie...@wsunix.wsu.edu> wrote:
Oh my god, Rob, you're absolutely right.
The Chargers made a HUGE mistake in drafting this loser Ryan Leaf from
Washington State! Thanks to him, the Chargers are doomed to many more losing
seasons!
Because of the Great Antichrist Leaf's actions, we should immediately kick
out the Chargers from our fair city! Just take the entire franchise, pack
them all on a ship, and send them to NFL Europe where they belong!!!!
Oh, thank you, Rob Wieman III for your marvelous insight! You, sir, have
opened my eyes to the cancer known as Ryan, the most Heinous Villain since
Adolf Hitler.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
super...@my-dejanews.com
The reason you have attracted hostility in this newsgroup is not because of
blind loyalty to the Chargers but because this newsgroup is periodically
invaded by WSU students who bring a lot of negativity with them.
At least you seem to display more intelligence in your posts than most of
your fellow students, whose posts are generally mere variations on the "Ryan
Sux! U Charger fans got urself a Looser!" theme and are unfortunatly of the
same level of low intelligence.
Its not that people here object to every little negative comment about Charger
players such as Leaf. It's just that folks here tire of hearing the same
message repeated over and over again.
SF
