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Defending Sanchez
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JKConey
Oct 18, 2011, 12:56:51 AM10/18/11
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Anyone left that still wants to defend this kid? Miami dee? This game he had
no excuses. Lots of time to look off, and still so many bad choices, and
inaccurate throws. 56% on a night facing no rush, and a really bad team is
just not a good sign. The kid sucks.
JK Sinrod
www.MyConeyIslandMemories.com
no excuses. Lots of time to look off, and still so many bad choices, and
inaccurate throws. 56% on a night facing no rush, and a really bad team is
just not a good sign. The kid sucks.
JK Sinrod
www.MyConeyIslandMemories.com
Message has been deleted
Señor Patriots
Oct 18, 2011, 2:11:12 AM10/18/11
to
On Oct 18, 12:22 am, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:
>
> So, you think this offense fits Sanchez skills?
> Watch him when he moves around, or in the no-huddle. He gets it done all the time.
> The offensive design, plan, scheme, substitution-pattern, pace, sucks.
>
This is why I brought up that thread about Alex Smith. He "sucked"
for how many years? Give him the right coach and scheme and voila -
instant karma.
It really makes me wonder how many guys came and went without success
and never really had a chance to show what they could do.
>
> So, you think this offense fits Sanchez skills?
> Watch him when he moves around, or in the no-huddle. He gets it done all the time.
> The offensive design, plan, scheme, substitution-pattern, pace, sucks.
>
This is why I brought up that thread about Alex Smith. He "sucked"
for how many years? Give him the right coach and scheme and voila -
instant karma.
It really makes me wonder how many guys came and went without success
and never really had a chance to show what they could do.
Tutor
Oct 18, 2011, 2:43:47 AM10/18/11
to
Has no feel for other receivers when his primary target is covered.
Seems to get panicky and loses accuracy. Once in a while throws a gem
with speed, accuracy and touch, so he is a great big tease, because he
does have the arm and touch. Just so damned inconsistent. Someone
has to coach him how to check down, how to look one way then another
and then throw it a third way. And puhleaaase for gd's sake he needs
to stop doing that Ken Obrien pat-the-ball routine. He signals where
and when he is going to throw it by doing that. This boy needs a
better QB coach. I'd like to know WTF Cavanaugh does with him during
the week. Is he not being coached? Or is he just dense? Or both?
oldn...@mindspring.com
Oct 18, 2011, 4:44:02 AM10/18/11
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On Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:11:12 AM UTC-4, Señor Patriots wrote:
Tons of them. The QB's numbers are mostly the team's numbers, not his.
There are 11 players involved in the passing game -- more including situation substitutes. The QB is the most important one, but if he is worth as much as three other starters that's still under 30%. PFR.com attributes 28% of passing game numbers to the QB, spreading the rest among the other players.
So "the QB's numbers" are really the team's passing game numbers.
Look at Earl Morrall. Career journeyman, goes in as a backup on a great team, suddenly he's NFL MVP! Yet he can't get another starting job ... after being MVP. A couple years later he's waived out of the league. He's 38 years old, nobody wants him until Shula picks him up again as a backup. Now Griese goes down, the olde man goes back in once more ... and he leads the Fins through most of their '72 Perfect Season. He dominates the league in every passing category (9 yards per attempt!) and is voted 1st Team All-Pro! But then he can't get another starting job again...
TWICE it happened to him.
During the last 50 years you can't find a HoF QB who didn't play on a good team. There are lots of RB HoFes who played their careers on awful teams (OJ's teams averaged 4-10) and the same for other positions and other sports. But not for NFL QBs.
Because the team passing numbers are under the QB's name, and the fans give credit and blame for everything to the QB. So a good team's success is credited to him. And so is the bad team's failures. So good QBs on bad teams don't get recognized, and medium QBs on good teams get hailed as heros.
More precisely, as Vince Lombardi said, a bad QB as the linchpin of the offense can sink an offense all by himself with bad picks and bad reads, etc., but the good QB gets all the other players in the game, enables them to contribute their most, so he becomes one of 11 -- albeit the most important one.
As to Alex Smith, it's no secret what's happened in SF. He hasn't become a real good QB, he's no better than before, but Harbaugh has *actually done* what Rex keeps talking about. He's put in a real ground and pound.
Smith's attempts have been cut way back -- the 49ers are 30th in pass attempts and 30th in passing yards per game, so Smith ain't exactly tearing up the field -- while the 49ers have gone very run heavy, very successfully.
This is the Lombardi/Starr, Shula/Morrall formula of a ball control QB playing safe and picking his shots efficiently. With a good D, as Harbaugh has also created, so the QB doesn't have to panic throw from behind, the *team passing efficiency numbers* improve -- and wow, look how good Smith has become! Just like Morrall did.
And this is how "Sanchez won" his four playoff games -- with the team rushing for near an average 160 yards in them, and the D keeping the score down, so Sanchez could throw modestly and efficiently, picking his spots.
The problem this year is that Rex's ground and pound is producing the fewest rushing yards per game of any Jets offense SINCE THE 1960s!! Yes, you read that right -- the fewest yards rushing per game since 1963!!!!
Sanchez in fact clearly is getting better than he was. That's a low bar to jump, true, and he did miss two wide-open receivers for TDs in this game. But in his first couple years, with *good* players around him, he was league bottom. Now he is league middle of the pack.
But the whole rest of the offense is falling apart around him from Rex's and Tanny's neglect.
The WEAKEST JETS RUNNING GAME IN 48 YEARS is Rex's "ground and pound". That is going to have a very bad effect on Sanchez's numbers.
But we're just going to have to bear it -- we can't get a new OL and new set of RBs this year -- while watching Harbaugh show how it actually works when one walks the walk with a ground and pound.
There are 11 players involved in the passing game -- more including situation substitutes. The QB is the most important one, but if he is worth as much as three other starters that's still under 30%. PFR.com attributes 28% of passing game numbers to the QB, spreading the rest among the other players.
So "the QB's numbers" are really the team's passing game numbers.
Look at Earl Morrall. Career journeyman, goes in as a backup on a great team, suddenly he's NFL MVP! Yet he can't get another starting job ... after being MVP. A couple years later he's waived out of the league. He's 38 years old, nobody wants him until Shula picks him up again as a backup. Now Griese goes down, the olde man goes back in once more ... and he leads the Fins through most of their '72 Perfect Season. He dominates the league in every passing category (9 yards per attempt!) and is voted 1st Team All-Pro! But then he can't get another starting job again...
TWICE it happened to him.
During the last 50 years you can't find a HoF QB who didn't play on a good team. There are lots of RB HoFes who played their careers on awful teams (OJ's teams averaged 4-10) and the same for other positions and other sports. But not for NFL QBs.
Because the team passing numbers are under the QB's name, and the fans give credit and blame for everything to the QB. So a good team's success is credited to him. And so is the bad team's failures. So good QBs on bad teams don't get recognized, and medium QBs on good teams get hailed as heros.
More precisely, as Vince Lombardi said, a bad QB as the linchpin of the offense can sink an offense all by himself with bad picks and bad reads, etc., but the good QB gets all the other players in the game, enables them to contribute their most, so he becomes one of 11 -- albeit the most important one.
As to Alex Smith, it's no secret what's happened in SF. He hasn't become a real good QB, he's no better than before, but Harbaugh has *actually done* what Rex keeps talking about. He's put in a real ground and pound.
Smith's attempts have been cut way back -- the 49ers are 30th in pass attempts and 30th in passing yards per game, so Smith ain't exactly tearing up the field -- while the 49ers have gone very run heavy, very successfully.
This is the Lombardi/Starr, Shula/Morrall formula of a ball control QB playing safe and picking his shots efficiently. With a good D, as Harbaugh has also created, so the QB doesn't have to panic throw from behind, the *team passing efficiency numbers* improve -- and wow, look how good Smith has become! Just like Morrall did.
And this is how "Sanchez won" his four playoff games -- with the team rushing for near an average 160 yards in them, and the D keeping the score down, so Sanchez could throw modestly and efficiently, picking his spots.
The problem this year is that Rex's ground and pound is producing the fewest rushing yards per game of any Jets offense SINCE THE 1960s!! Yes, you read that right -- the fewest yards rushing per game since 1963!!!!
Sanchez in fact clearly is getting better than he was. That's a low bar to jump, true, and he did miss two wide-open receivers for TDs in this game. But in his first couple years, with *good* players around him, he was league bottom. Now he is league middle of the pack.
But the whole rest of the offense is falling apart around him from Rex's and Tanny's neglect.
The WEAKEST JETS RUNNING GAME IN 48 YEARS is Rex's "ground and pound". That is going to have a very bad effect on Sanchez's numbers.
But we're just going to have to bear it -- we can't get a new OL and new set of RBs this year -- while watching Harbaugh show how it actually works when one walks the walk with a ground and pound.
Papa Carl
Oct 18, 2011, 7:05:10 AM10/18/11
to
"JKConey" <jkc...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:j7j0ug$v1$1...@dont-email.me...
Papa Carl
Oct 18, 2011, 7:08:04 AM10/18/11
to
"Señor Patriots" <roam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:98116ea3-93f9-4b42...@c1g2000vbw.googlegroups.com...
the biggest skill a coach can have is to find kids that nobody thinks can
play and turn them into players. At this level that does not happen at all,
there just isn't that intensity of coaching and they don't have the time to
do it, so when it does happen it really stands out.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
John C (tx)
Oct 18, 2011, 8:43:56 AM10/18/11
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On Oct 18, 6:08 am, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Señor Patriots" <roamin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Papa, I agree with you about the coaching. They have so many bodies
coming through the door, maybe even more so at the college level, they
don't spend the time. The irony is that the guys who cost you the
most get the most opportunities because of the investment both in
cash & ego of the front office. I also remember hearing John Madden
say last year that he thought when he coached in the NFL that most OL
take 5 years to have any value. He did say that can't happen anymore
because of cost but that may also comes into play. There is no time.
btw I am not totally sold on Smith.
> "Señor Patriots" <roamin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
coming through the door, maybe even more so at the college level, they
don't spend the time. The irony is that the guys who cost you the
most get the most opportunities because of the investment both in
cash & ego of the front office. I also remember hearing John Madden
say last year that he thought when he coached in the NFL that most OL
take 5 years to have any value. He did say that can't happen anymore
because of cost but that may also comes into play. There is no time.
btw I am not totally sold on Smith.
John C (tx)
Oct 18, 2011, 8:55:50 AM10/18/11
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On Oct 18, 12:22 am, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:
> So, you think this offense fits Sanchez skills?
> Watch him when he moves around, or in the no-huddle. He gets it done all the time.
> The offensive design, plan, scheme, substitution-pattern, pace, sucks.
Sometimes but what about when they do that & he still doesn't see the
> Watch him when he moves around, or in the no-huddle. He gets it done all the time.
> The offensive design, plan, scheme, substitution-pattern, pace, sucks.
open man?
> It's like if the Pats had an offensive scheme, designed for a mobile QB... ya think
> Brady's play would suffer?
> Sanchez will never be great, but he has enough skills to win consistently... as he has,
> despite his youth, & the offensive mess he's been given to manage.
> He' been a young, inexperienced, raw QB, without solid coaching.
Time will tell.
>
> Just as an example, Aaron Maybin. He's probably done more in his short stint with the
> Jets, than he did in his time with Buffalo. Is it because the light went on for him
> suddenly... or is it the Jets D coaching puts him in positions to utilize his talents?
b, Maybin showed some promise but on one of his "great plays" it was
because he got sucked in & then had to come back to recover.
Message has been deleted
CaptMyng
Oct 18, 2011, 10:19:49 AM10/18/11
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corp in just one off season. Mason was A total failure that resulted
in the starting of a rookie midget in the number 3 spot. If Plaxico
couldn't block he would useless to the team. Too slow to gain
separation on the rare occasion he gets open he invariable drops the
pass.
Message has been deleted
Johnny Morongo
Oct 18, 2011, 12:23:51 PM10/18/11
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On 10/18/2011 5:53 AM, John C (tx) wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
> I don't think he sucks because when the game is on the line he wants
> the ball and he has come through. We can't get rid of him& whether
> it is like buRf& others feel it is the OC, or as I feel the Ryan/
> Schott offense is dysfunctional, they aren't getting it done.
>
> My theory is he is pleaser (remmeber he did not fight for the last $&
> got to camp early) and seems to be a hard worker. You can see the
> stress he is carrying for his team& the pressure the offense is
> under. In hindsight, for me a day, letting Edwards go --& Cotchery
> although I hated that move-- was a mistake. The lack of continuity at
> WR is hurting them& Papa was 100% right about Burress he is a slug.
>
> The positive is that the line played better. We have a bye so Mangold
> can get healthier although I was disappointed when I heard how much
> mandatory time off they have to give these guys. Ducasse& others
> like Westerman& Maybin need the work.
About Mangold: did I see Slauson or someone else at center during the
letter stages of the game, and with Ducasse in there on the line? Also,
and here I may be crazy, but I could have sworn that I saw Brick at
RIGHT tackle for the first play of the game.
> X-No-Archive: Yes
> the ball and he has come through. We can't get rid of him& whether
> it is like buRf& others feel it is the OC, or as I feel the Ryan/
> Schott offense is dysfunctional, they aren't getting it done.
>
> My theory is he is pleaser (remmeber he did not fight for the last $&
> got to camp early) and seems to be a hard worker. You can see the
> stress he is carrying for his team& the pressure the offense is
> under. In hindsight, for me a day, letting Edwards go --& Cotchery
> although I hated that move-- was a mistake. The lack of continuity at
> WR is hurting them& Papa was 100% right about Burress he is a slug.
>
> The positive is that the line played better. We have a bye so Mangold
> can get healthier although I was disappointed when I heard how much
> mandatory time off they have to give these guys. Ducasse& others
> like Westerman& Maybin need the work.
About Mangold: did I see Slauson or someone else at center during the
letter stages of the game, and with Ducasse in there on the line? Also,
and here I may be crazy, but I could have sworn that I saw Brick at
RIGHT tackle for the first play of the game.
Tutor
Oct 18, 2011, 12:30:58 PM10/18/11
to
On Oct 18, 7:35 am, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:
> As I've said ad nauseum, I think it's coaching, the bizarro scheme, and all the presnap
> nonsense, which too often confuses the other O players too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Isn't Cavanugh supposed to teach him how to survey the field? I'd
like to know what Cavanaugh does with him all week. The image of
Cavanaugh lecturing Sanchez on Hard Knocks while Sanchez stared off
into oblivion, making me think he wasn't listening, just sticks in my
head.
(Really, any team that agrees to do Hard Knocks is nuts.)
> nonsense, which too often confuses the other O players too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Isn't Cavanugh supposed to teach him how to survey the field? I'd
like to know what Cavanaugh does with him all week. The image of
Cavanaugh lecturing Sanchez on Hard Knocks while Sanchez stared off
into oblivion, making me think he wasn't listening, just sticks in my
head.
(Really, any team that agrees to do Hard Knocks is nuts.)
Message has been deleted
John C TX
Oct 18, 2011, 3:22:57 PM10/18/11
to
was Baxter. I think Ducasse lined up as an extra tackle (TE) the role
Hunter used to fill last year.
JKConey
Oct 18, 2011, 3:24:18 PM10/18/11
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To the few supporters I still say if you do in fact see a guy open, an
NFL QB should hit him in the chest. He's not close too many times. When your
primary guy is covered, can you look the other way once or twice? Did you
see Keller standing wide open in the end zone, when Sanchez throw an
incomplete 5 yards in front of him to a guy at was blanketed? Will he get to
be a good NFL QB someday, maybe? Can he, yes.
-- "Ladies & gentlemen, do not panic. The Tingler is loose in THIS theater.
SCREAM.... SCREAM FOR YOUR LIVES!"
JK Sinrod
www.MyConeyIslandMemories.com
www.facebook.com/MyConeyIslandMemories
NFL QB should hit him in the chest. He's not close too many times. When your
primary guy is covered, can you look the other way once or twice? Did you
see Keller standing wide open in the end zone, when Sanchez throw an
incomplete 5 yards in front of him to a guy at was blanketed? Will he get to
be a good NFL QB someday, maybe? Can he, yes.
-- "Ladies & gentlemen, do not panic. The Tingler is loose in THIS theater.
SCREAM.... SCREAM FOR YOUR LIVES!"
JK Sinrod
www.MyConeyIslandMemories.com
www.facebook.com/MyConeyIslandMemories
Steve Russo
Oct 18, 2011, 3:38:08 PM10/18/11
to
>
Slauson was at center late and yes, I also saw Brick jogging to the
right side as they broke the first huddle of the game. I never saw
another shot that was long enough to confirm it. My sense was he may
have lined up at TE on the right but I didn't actually see that (and I
was too lazy to rewind).
Papa Carl
Oct 18, 2011, 4:22:18 PM10/18/11
to
"buRford" <buR...@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
news:r8jr97hm4n6cmhrkc...@4ax.com...
>
> Somebody is failing to help him mature as a man.
> He just seems like he's still a kid... not a man yet.
> One thing that gets to me more than the vision thing, is how rarely he'll
> throw the ball
> away, when the play is pretty much dead. Something is missing in the
> coaching.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well coached high school kids pick that up. Something is missing in Sanchez
I think. He looks like the deer in the headlights......we could all be
totally wrong, but he does not look like someone with confidence.
John C TX
Oct 18, 2011, 4:38:05 PM10/18/11
to
guy they picked up from the Packers?
Ritchie
Oct 18, 2011, 6:04:20 PM10/18/11
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On Oct 18, 4:22 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "buRford" <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>
> news:r8jr97hm4n6cmhrkc...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:30:58 -0700 (PDT), Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com>
I agree Papa. My brother and I were watching the game and Sanchez
looked jittery and unsettled. His feet were all over the place while
he was standing in one spot, which means he is nervous and having
trouble locating his targets. I don't like the direction he is going
in and the fact that the Jets really have no choice in their
commitment to him.
> "buRford" <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>
> news:r8jr97hm4n6cmhrkc...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:30:58 -0700 (PDT), Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com>
looked jittery and unsettled. His feet were all over the place while
he was standing in one spot, which means he is nervous and having
trouble locating his targets. I don't like the direction he is going
in and the fact that the Jets really have no choice in their
commitment to him.
Papa Carl
Oct 18, 2011, 7:45:58 PM10/18/11
to
"Ritchie" <ritch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1fab6eb-367b-4904...@n18g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
going....knew when to get rid of the ball and where to throw it. Read his
receivers well....and could even step up into his blocking and avoid getting
hit. I'm thinking to get this far Sanchez had to do some of that at some
point....what happened? The speed of the game?
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Papa Carl
Oct 18, 2011, 10:59:24 PM10/18/11
to
news:8lbs97d6elebols3o...@4ax.com...
> I agree about the confidence, but is he put in a position to succeed?
> Especially, after the beating he's taken.
No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to open
guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
rushed he is off.
> Especially, after the beating he's taken.
No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to open
guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
rushed he is off.
RävNsfän ®
Oct 18, 2011, 11:57:57 PM10/18/11
to
"Tutor" <dcat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bce39074-bda7-49b0...@s7g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
?
--
~Drew
"Talk is cheap ...lets just play"
Johnny Unitas - Baltimore Colts
news:bce39074-bda7-49b0...@s7g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
I'd like to know WTF Cavanaugh does with him during
the week. Is he not being coached? Or is he just dense? Or both?
Matt Cavanaugh, ...a.k.a.: Matt Cavanawful, ...is coaching the Jets offense
the week. Is he not being coached? Or is he just dense? Or both?
?
--
~Drew
"Talk is cheap ...lets just play"
Johnny Unitas - Baltimore Colts
Tutor
Oct 19, 2011, 12:18:53 AM10/19/11
to
On Oct 18, 10:57 pm, "RävNsfän ®" <noemai...@nospam4me.org> wrote:
> "Tutor" <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
he has been Ass't Coach/Quarterback Coach for the Jets since 2008. I
think he sucks at his job based on Sanchez's lack of development, or
worse, regression. In one of the Hard Knocks episodes they showed him
lecturing Sanchez with Sanchez practically staring off into space.
Color me unimpressed. When Schittenheimer goes, so should Cavanaugh.
> "Tutor" <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
think he sucks at his job based on Sanchez's lack of development, or
worse, regression. In one of the Hard Knocks episodes they showed him
lecturing Sanchez with Sanchez practically staring off into space.
Color me unimpressed. When Schittenheimer goes, so should Cavanaugh.
Johnny Morongo
Oct 19, 2011, 1:27:40 AM10/19/11
to
Ritchie
Oct 19, 2011, 5:47:04 AM10/19/11
to
On Oct 18, 7:45 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> I agree Papa. My brother and I were watching the game and Sanchez
> looked jittery and unsettled. His feet were all over the place while
> he was standing in one spot, which means he is nervous and having
> trouble locating his targets. I don't like the direction he is going
> in and the fact that the Jets really have no choice in their
> commitment to him.
>
> I saw a local high school kid the other night who had all those things
> going....knew when to get rid of the ball and where to throw it. Read his
> receivers well....and could even step up into his blocking and avoid getting
> hit. I'm thinking to get this far Sanchez had to do some of that at some
> point....what happened? The speed of the game?
I was thinking that. Its seems that this year the game is too quick
>
> I agree Papa. My brother and I were watching the game and Sanchez
> looked jittery and unsettled. His feet were all over the place while
> he was standing in one spot, which means he is nervous and having
> trouble locating his targets. I don't like the direction he is going
> in and the fact that the Jets really have no choice in their
> commitment to him.
>
> I saw a local high school kid the other night who had all those things
> going....knew when to get rid of the ball and where to throw it. Read his
> receivers well....and could even step up into his blocking and avoid getting
> hit. I'm thinking to get this far Sanchez had to do some of that at some
> point....what happened? The speed of the game?
for him to make the proper decisions or adjustments.
graybeard
Oct 19, 2011, 9:44:20 AM10/19/11
to
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:59:24 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to open
>guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
>after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
>off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
>enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
>rushed he is off.
Papa, I don't think it is a coincidence that Sanchez has regressed in a
year when the pass protection has been abysmal. Yes, he had better
protection in the Miami game, but by then he was gun shy and probably
expected to be hit any second. It is going to take a string of games
with that kind of pass blocking before Sanchez will take it for granted
and relax. I'm sure you know from personal coaching experience that true
confidence comes from a repetition of success.
--
graybeard
wrote:
>No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to open
>guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
>after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
>off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
>enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
>rushed he is off.
year when the pass protection has been abysmal. Yes, he had better
protection in the Miami game, but by then he was gun shy and probably
expected to be hit any second. It is going to take a string of games
with that kind of pass blocking before Sanchez will take it for granted
and relax. I'm sure you know from personal coaching experience that true
confidence comes from a repetition of success.
--
graybeard
Message has been deleted
Papa Carl
Oct 19, 2011, 12:07:42 PM10/19/11
to
"graybeard" <gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:vmkt97pvkh68rq7gf...@4ax.com...
of their practices.
Papa Carl
Oct 19, 2011, 12:10:08 PM10/19/11
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news:9lst971anu9li57js...@4ax.com...
> Couldn't've said it better, grey ;)
Agree....but it is a combination of the entire mess...and they did create a
mess....they took a contender down to a mess by thinking they were far
better than they are, at coaching, managing, aquiring....the entire
works.....terrible decisions. Now....given they have less than desireable
talent now....a "good" OC would compensate and come up with a whole new
program worked around what they do have....when will we see that? Answer =
never.
Agree....but it is a combination of the entire mess...and they did create a
mess....they took a contender down to a mess by thinking they were far
better than they are, at coaching, managing, aquiring....the entire
works.....terrible decisions. Now....given they have less than desireable
talent now....a "good" OC would compensate and come up with a whole new
program worked around what they do have....when will we see that? Answer =
never.
John C TX
Oct 19, 2011, 12:07:30 PM10/19/11
to
Hackett. Both Gannon & Pennington gave him good grades on teaching.
John C TX
Oct 19, 2011, 12:18:29 PM10/19/11
to
On Oct 19, 8:44 am, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:59:24 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net>
Gray, sorry but explain the Jacksonville game both interceptions came
with no pressure. He forced the ball when he had better options.
> On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:59:24 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net>
with no pressure. He forced the ball when he had better options.
Johnny Morongo
Oct 19, 2011, 12:25:53 PM10/19/11
to
On 10/19/2011 8:54 AM, buRford wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:44:20 -0400, graybeard<gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:44:20 -0400, graybeard<gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
Fixed it fer ya, John.
Johnny Morongo
Oct 19, 2011, 12:27:39 PM10/19/11
to
How'd he do in NO?
Right.
John C TX
Oct 19, 2011, 1:22:07 PM10/19/11
to
He never coached in New Orleans.
John C TX
Oct 19, 2011, 1:22:42 PM10/19/11
to
On Oct 19, 11:25 am, Johnny Morongo <Moro...@Burf.com> wrote:
> On 10/19/2011 8:54 AM, buRford wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:44:20 -0400, graybeard<graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/19/2011 8:54 AM, buRford wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:59:24 -0400, "Papa Carl"<papa.c...@verizon.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to open
> >>> guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
> >>> after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
> >>> off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
> >>> enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
> >>> rushed he is off.
>
> >> Papa, I don't think it is a coincidence that Sanchez has regressed in a
> >> year when the pass protection has been abysmal. Yes, he had better
> >> protection in the Miami game, but by then he was gun shy and probably
> >> expected to be hit any second. It is going to take a string of games
> >> with that kind of pass blocking before Sanchez will take it for granted
> >> and relax. I'm sure you know from personal coaching experience that true
> >> confidence comes from a repetition of success.
>
> > Couldn't've said it better, gray ;)
>
> Fixed it fer ya, John.
What did you fix, your diapers?
>
> >>> No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to open
> >>> guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
> >>> after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
> >>> off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
> >>> enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
> >>> rushed he is off.
>
> >> Papa, I don't think it is a coincidence that Sanchez has regressed in a
> >> year when the pass protection has been abysmal. Yes, he had better
> >> protection in the Miami game, but by then he was gun shy and probably
> >> expected to be hit any second. It is going to take a string of games
> >> with that kind of pass blocking before Sanchez will take it for granted
> >> and relax. I'm sure you know from personal coaching experience that true
> >> confidence comes from a repetition of success.
>
> > Couldn't've said it better, gray ;)
>
> Fixed it fer ya, John.
graybeard
Oct 19, 2011, 2:10:06 PM10/19/11
to
decisions, but show me a QB who doesn't. Didn't the sainted Brady have 4
int's in a game this year?
--
graybeard
Julio Sanchez
Oct 19, 2011, 2:17:32 PM10/19/11
to
graybeard
Oct 19, 2011, 2:34:22 PM10/19/11
to
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:07:42 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa...@verizon.net>
too large. There is not enough time in a season to learn and practice
hundreds of different plays and formations until you can do them in your
sleep, especially if you are constantly bringing new guys into the mix.
--
graybeard
wrote:
>
>"graybeard" <gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:vmkt97pvkh68rq7gf...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:59:24 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to
>>>open
>>>guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
>>>after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
>>>off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
>>>enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
>>>rushed he is off.
>>
>> Papa, I don't think it is a coincidence that Sanchez has regressed in a
>> year when the pass protection has been abysmal. Yes, he had better
>> protection in the Miami game, but by then he was gun shy and probably
>> expected to be hit any second. It is going to take a string of games
>> with that kind of pass blocking before Sanchez will take it for granted
>> and relax. I'm sure you know from personal coaching experience that true
>> confidence comes from a repetition of success.
>> --
>> graybeard
>
>Absolutely....doing it till it is second nature.....I'd love to see a series
>of their practices.
PC, I have thought for a long time that NFL playbooks have just gotten
>
>"graybeard" <gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:vmkt97pvkh68rq7gf...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:59:24 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>No he is not...but that does not keep him from completing easy shots to
>>>open
>>>guys....he very much reminds me of Donovan McNabb who went into a decline
>>>after a few good years...all the passes went into the ground...Sanchez is
>>>off all the time and sometimes they are close enough....Holmes is quick
>>>enough to grab some stuff the others can't I think. Even when he is not
>>>rushed he is off.
>>
>> Papa, I don't think it is a coincidence that Sanchez has regressed in a
>> year when the pass protection has been abysmal. Yes, he had better
>> protection in the Miami game, but by then he was gun shy and probably
>> expected to be hit any second. It is going to take a string of games
>> with that kind of pass blocking before Sanchez will take it for granted
>> and relax. I'm sure you know from personal coaching experience that true
>> confidence comes from a repetition of success.
>> --
>> graybeard
>
>Absolutely....doing it till it is second nature.....I'd love to see a series
>of their practices.
too large. There is not enough time in a season to learn and practice
hundreds of different plays and formations until you can do them in your
sleep, especially if you are constantly bringing new guys into the mix.
--
graybeard
graybeard
Oct 19, 2011, 2:45:44 PM10/19/11
to
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:17:32 -0700 (PDT), Julio Sanchez
<hoolio3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>http://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2011/walkthrough-unfocused
>
>Julio
Well written analysis. Most of Sanchez inaccurate throws seem to be
either behind the receivers or too high over their heads. I postulated
last week that some of that may possibly be due to Mark not setting his
feet and following through, either because of a pass rush or because of
fear of one. Sort of like a pitcher who gets wild high, because he is
releasing the ball too soon.
--
graybeard
<hoolio3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>http://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2011/walkthrough-unfocused
>
>Julio
Well written analysis. Most of Sanchez inaccurate throws seem to be
either behind the receivers or too high over their heads. I postulated
last week that some of that may possibly be due to Mark not setting his
feet and following through, either because of a pass rush or because of
fear of one. Sort of like a pitcher who gets wild high, because he is
releasing the ball too soon.
--
graybeard
Message has been deleted
Papa Carl
Oct 20, 2011, 3:33:16 PM10/20/11
to
"graybeard" <gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
time on a deep ball he overthrows it or puts it way over the guys head...he
does not have his touch anymore and that is usually in some of the mechanics
somewhere which the QB coach is supposed to be fixing.
graybeard
Oct 20, 2011, 3:56:17 PM10/20/11
to
On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:33:16 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>
Actually, PC, I could make either case for a ball being behind the
receiver, by making a distinction between throwing and releasing.
Throwing it too late would cause this, but so would releasing it too
soon, before his arm has reached the point where the ball would be on
the correct trajectory. Either way it is a mechanical issue and, as you
say, should be correctable with the proper coaching.
--
graybeard
wrote:
>
receiver, by making a distinction between throwing and releasing.
Throwing it too late would cause this, but so would releasing it too
soon, before his arm has reached the point where the ball would be on
the correct trajectory. Either way it is a mechanical issue and, as you
say, should be correctable with the proper coaching.
--
graybeard
oldn...@mindspring.com
Oct 20, 2011, 4:29:54 PM10/20/11
to
On Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:56:17 PM UTC-4, graybeard wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:33:16 -0400, "Papa Carl"
>
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:33:16 -0400, "Papa Carl"
>
You're talking about accuracy here. Can any QB be coached to much better accuracy? I dunno, a heck of a lot of strong-armed high-pick QBs have flunked out of the league because they couldn't learn to hit the target suffficiently.
Can any pro baseball pitcher be taught accuracy in spotting the ball via coaching? That would seem a whole lot simpler, as the target isn't moving, you aren't moving, and nobody is trying to kill you while you throw. But a lot of guys with 95-mile-an-hour fastballs never get out of the low minors because they can't find the plate.
Lots of things can be taught to a young QB, but I'm not sure accuracy is one of the easy ones.
OTOH, Sanchez has clearly been more accurate this year than the last two years (up to the middle of the league from the low bottom) so maybe he is picking it up ... slowly.
> --
> graybeard
Message has been deleted
graybeard
Oct 20, 2011, 8:23:02 PM10/20/11
to
full season, his accuracy was 65.8%, with 34 TD's and 10 Int's. That was
up from 60.5% his previous year, when he played in only 8 games. Sanchez
topped off his final season by being named MVP of the Rose Bowl, where
he was 28 of 35 with 4 TD's and no Int's, and ran for a 5th TD. That was
against Penn State, a school which has a well deserved reputation for
knowing how to play defense. (Interesting note: Aaron Maybin played for
PennState in that game). I don't watch a lot of college football, but I
like to watch the major bowl games, and I remember thinking at the time,
"I never heard of that kid Sanchez before, but he would look pretty nice
in a Jets uniform". Little did I know.
Yes, there have been QB's who have put up gaudy numbers in college and
flopped in the NFL, with Sanchez' predecessor at USC, Matt Leinhart,
being a prime example. But Leinhart can only dream of someday performing
in the playoffs the way Sanchez has already played 4 times in 2 years.
Sure, there are guys who are wild by nature, and will never overcome
that, but Sanchez has shown that he is not one of those guys. He may
well be a streaky passer, but I think a good QB coach who will emphasize
proper technique could help Sanchez improve his accuracy markedly.
--
graybeard
Papa Carl
Oct 20, 2011, 10:07:55 PM10/20/11
to
"graybeard" <gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
little zip and bad spiral....at least that is what my impression has always
been...he may be doing that too.
oldn...@mindspring.com
Oct 21, 2011, 1:37:55 AM10/21/11
to
Right now there are a dozen Div 1 college QBs hitting over 70%. Colt McCoy hit 77% and 71% his last two years but is hitting fewer than Sanchez now. Clausen hit 68% in college and 52% now. Beck, the Dolphin flop, hit 69%. Kliff Klingsbury, the Jets' desperation sub back when both Chad and Fiedler went down 1-2, hit 69% in college ... the list is endless.
Clemens hit 64% in college ... but Tom Brady hit only 61%, his percentage went *up* in the NFL.
That's the point, it's a different game, pro v college. What completes passes in the pros is different.
If you play with the search engine at PFR.com you won't find many young pro QBs who started out playing full seasons with a completion pct more than 5 pts below league average who wound up as good starting QBs.
There have been a few -- Eli Manning is about the one example of the last 10 years. The Giants really stuck and stuck with him, and he got better. (Though their trading Rivers plus all the rest to get him was awful.)
We're sticking with Sanchez that way, and he's gotten noticeably better this year -- for all the distance he still has to go. So he could be the next one.
> Yes, there have been QB's who have put up gaudy numbers in college and
> flopped in the NFL,
> with Sanchez' predecessor at USC, Matt Leinhart,
> being a prime example. But Leinhart can only dream of someday performing
> in the playoffs the way Sanchez has already played 4 times in 2 years.
Sanchez did his part by playing efficiently, few pass attempts, picking his spots well, few mistakes.
That's fine, that's how a ground-and-pound works with a top D. Too bad we have no running game this year.
>
> Sure, there are guys who are wild by nature, and will never overcome
> that, but Sanchez has shown that he is not one of those guys. He may
> well be a streaky passer, but I think a good QB coach who will emphasize
> proper technique could help Sanchez improve his accuracy markedly.
And he *has* improved this year. Why people here who so defended Sanchez the last two years have decided to write him off now is ... geeze.
He's very arguably had his two best games ever, and four of his best 12, this year. OK, that shows his low level of past play, but progress is progress. Why do people deny it when they wanted it?
Throw out the Ravens game because it really was unfair to ask him to line up against Ngata with no center in between them.
Then his completion percentage this year is 61% up from 54%, his yards per attempt is 7.7 up from 6.6, and his rating this year is 93.4 up from 75. (Even including the Ravens disaster he's up across-the-board.)
Those are all *big gains*. They put him only in the middle of the league because his starting level was so low -- but still, those are *big gains*.
As to "Defending Sanchez", that's all the defense he needs, I think.
He's good enough now so that if Rex actually had a ground-and-pound, I think he could be a solid winning ball control QB behind it. But there is none.
The offensive problem now is that the ground game is the least productive in 40 years, while Cotchery/Mason has left a void and Plaxico is playing like he's still adjusting to getting out of jail, so the receivers are deficient.
No running game, deficient receivers -- Sanchez is the best thing the offense has got.
> --
> graybeard
John C TX
Oct 21, 2011, 1:21:56 PM10/21/11
to
On Oct 20, 7:23 pm, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
If I can jump in here.
Many college QB's look great with time & space. Chris Simms is a
great example. The minute they lose that they cant handle it. For
Simms that was the case in college. UT would play the lil Sisters of
the Poor & look fine but when faced against a powerhouse often came up
short.
Sanchez had a great line, speed at WR, RB so he looked good. In spite
of his problems at times he has proven he can react under pressure.
He has improved this year. He needs to do more but Drew Brees didn't
break out until year 4:
http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/2504775/careerstats
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:29:54 -0700 (PDT), oldna...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >On Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:56:17 PM UTC-4, graybeard wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:33:16 -0400, "Papa Carl"
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >"graybeard" <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> >On Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:56:17 PM UTC-4, graybeard wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:33:16 -0400, "Papa Carl"
>
> >> wrote:
>
Many college QB's look great with time & space. Chris Simms is a
great example. The minute they lose that they cant handle it. For
Simms that was the case in college. UT would play the lil Sisters of
the Poor & look fine but when faced against a powerhouse often came up
short.
Sanchez had a great line, speed at WR, RB so he looked good. In spite
of his problems at times he has proven he can react under pressure.
He has improved this year. He needs to do more but Drew Brees didn't
break out until year 4:
http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/2504775/careerstats
graybeard
Oct 21, 2011, 5:13:46 PM10/21/11
to
On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:21:56 -0700 (PDT), John C TX
<johnc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>If I can jump in here.
>
>Many college QB's look great with time & space. Chris Simms is a
>great example. The minute they lose that they cant handle it. For
>Simms that was the case in college. UT would play the lil Sisters of
>the Poor & look fine but when faced against a powerhouse often came up
>short.
>
>Sanchez had a great line, speed at WR, RB so he looked good. In spite
>of his problems at times he has proven he can react under pressure.
>He has improved this year. He needs to do more but Drew Brees didn't
>break out until year 4:
And Steve Young spent 2 years with Tampa Bay before being traded, and it
<johnc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>If I can jump in here.
>
>Many college QB's look great with time & space. Chris Simms is a
>great example. The minute they lose that they cant handle it. For
>Simms that was the case in college. UT would play the lil Sisters of
>the Poor & look fine but when faced against a powerhouse often came up
>short.
>
>Sanchez had a great line, speed at WR, RB so he looked good. In spite
>of his problems at times he has proven he can react under pressure.
>He has improved this year. He needs to do more but Drew Brees didn't
>break out until year 4:
wasn't until his 5th year in the NFL that his completion percentage got
above 54%. QB is the hardest transition from college to the pros, and
trying to project the long term success of a QB after only a couple of
years in the league is virtually impossible. However, I have seen enough
good things from Sanchez to be optimistic. Maybe he will pan out, and
maybe he won't, but I think using words like "sucks" and "bust" to
describe him at this point is simply foolish and ignorant.
--
graybeard
oldn...@mindspring.com
Oct 21, 2011, 5:55:07 PM10/21/11
to
I said before the season that if he got his completion percentage up to 60% this year he'd be fine by me, if it stayed down around 55% he wouldn't.
He has, and his TD-pick ratio is greatly improved too (so far) so I'm keeping my word and he's fine by me (so far).
The big problem regarding Sanchez at this writing, IMHO, is that the fiascos that the running game and receiver corps have become are going to hold him back and make him look worse than he is.
> graybeard
Papa Carl
Oct 21, 2011, 6:32:26 PM10/21/11
to
<oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:27713442.109.1319234107528.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbat14...
His stats were up in games one and two...then started to drop and came back
a little last week. I still think he could have been a really good young QB
if handled correctly. He got thrown into a boiling kettle. But what
concerns me now is even when he has time, his throws are OFF more than they
have been in the past and he has developed consistent mistakes...it is not
being erratic...it is continually behind the receiver or over his
head...that is an indication of a serious problem with mechanics and
judgement that needs to be corrected. This is not the same stuff he had
issues with early on which was just being very new. I'm hoping he gets
really good, in a hurry...but the whole system is looking pretty
dysfunctional right now.
oldn...@mindspring.com
Oct 22, 2011, 1:49:48 AM10/22/11
to
Papa Carl
Oct 22, 2011, 5:34:45 AM10/22/11
to
<oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:30010715.745.1319262588923.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqgn17...
too high...not inches...
graybeard
Oct 22, 2011, 8:05:31 AM10/22/11
to
On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 05:34:45 -0400, "Papa Carl" <papa...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>
--
graybeard
wrote:
>
>What I'm seeing now is WAY off too....when he is high....his passes are feet
>too high...not inches...
Release point issue. Can be correctable with proper work.
>too high...not inches...
--
graybeard
Papa Carl
Oct 22, 2011, 2:15:12 PM10/22/11
to
"graybeard" <gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
doesn't take a whole season either. Why can't this get fixed with Sanchez?
In fact, it seems to be getting worse. I absolutely do not believe they are
not working on it with him....they are smart coaches who have been
around....that leads me to believe MS is somewhat of a hard head when it
comes to change. And I think that because that is usually the case with
QB's.
Message has been deleted
oldn...@mindspring.com
Oct 22, 2011, 5:49:37 PM10/22/11
to
On Saturday, October 22, 2011 5:34:45 AM UTC-4, Papa Carl wrote:
> <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:30010715.745.1319262588923.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqgn17...
> > On Friday, October 21, 2011 6:32:26 PM UTC-4, Papa Carl wrote:
> >> <old...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:30010715.745.1319262588923.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqgn17...
> > On Friday, October 21, 2011 6:32:26 PM UTC-4, Papa Carl wrote:
Take his yards per game, adjusted by +20 per TD and -45 per pick:
2009: 119
2010: 190
2011: 250 (not counting the Ravens game, 221 counting it)
That is very clear improvement.
TD-pick ratio, before this year 1-1, terrible, this year 9-4, competitive, clear improvement.
And his completion percentage is clearly up.
Plus, all this has been while handicapped by having no running game for the first time in his life, very questionable receivers, and a faltering O-line.
So far, I gotta say he looks to be improving.
Does he still throw a lot of bad passes? Sure, he does.
You may be right, this might all be a mirage, he could end up the season worse than ever.
But let's hope not, eh?
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