We got Sherman
SNUMBER6
here's my $0.02 (worth over 2 Accorsi guards ...)
Allie Sherman was the best football mind of the three Howell assistants. He
knew the game inside out ... he could counter anything offensively or
defensively the opponents could throw at him ...
He had one fatal fault ... fatal to even making that great football mind seem
like a moron's ...
He could NOT evaluate players ... He could NOT put a team together ...
In his mind every QB could throw a 20 yard out ... every RB could get through a
hole that would close in a second ... every DB could run with any receiver ...
etc.
i still have no idea why he made some of the trades and draft picks he made ...
and then stubbornly thought lesser players could do the same job as a star ...
but also ... his record was better than 6 of the next 7 coaches that followed
him ...
Be seeing you
In the Village
Number 6
DoctorElefant
You don't trade Dick Modzelewski, Roosevelt Grier, and Sam Huff away from New
York City. You just don't.
DocE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
--Vince Lombardi
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
GaryFL
wrote:
Who did you want for head coach those bums Landry or Lombardi? You do
realize that Wellington Mara made ALL the trades in those days and
chose Allie over the other 2 guys. Wellington ran the franchise into
the ground until Tim forced Rozelle to mediate. Allie was not as big a
problem as Mr. Mara.
DoctorElefant
GaryFL gdmo...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
>Who did you want for head coach those bums Landry or Lombardi?
I don't remember voicing an opinion in 1960. I was 2 years old. But I was
demonstrating above how Allie got on the wrong side of many fans.
>You do
>realize that Wellington Mara made ALL the trades in those days and
>chose Allie over the other 2 guys. Wellington ran the franchise into
>the ground until Tim forced Rozelle to mediate. Allie was not as big a
>problem as Mr. Mara.
According to Sam Huff, Allie made the trades. Wellington Mara ok'd them.
tgifritz
"DoctorElefant" <doctor...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030902175024...@mb-m20.aol.com...
remember him as coach. I went to my first game when Webster was their coach
but Ive read about what an asshole Allie was. And Mr. Mara may be a good
man but he did a horrible job with this franchise for a long time.
GaryFL
wrote:
My dad disliked Wellington more then Allie. Maybe because he felt
Wellington was responsible for the most loses of any NFL Franchise
from 1965 - 1980. The young guys in here who see the proud old
patriarch don't realize that Wellington in his day made Jim Dolan look
good.
DoctorElefant
"tgifritz" tgif...@adelphia.net wrote:
>
>My father and my uncle hate Allie Sherman's guts to this day.
A good example of exactly what I was referring too.
>I don't
>remember him as coach.
I do, but just towards the bitter end of his term.
>I went to my first game when Webster was their coach
Me too. 1970. Bronx, NY. Game 12. It snowed. Giants 20 Bills 6. This guy in
front of me kept screaming for Tark's head in the first half which ended 6-6.
Fran rallied the Gmen for 2 scores in the second half and the same guy was
singing praises to our QB. I think that guy posts here. ;)
>but Ive read about what an asshole Allie was.
Just ask Sam Huff. He, like your uncle, and your father, and my father, and
many others, still hate Allie.
>And Mr. Mara may be a good
>man but he did a horrible job with this franchise for a long time.
Well, it wasn't pretty. The 5 year rebuilding plan got into about the 16th year
before they hired George Young and started in the right direction. 1970, and
maybe 1972, were at least a little fun, but the rest of that stretch was
painful.
Latenight
info, but it seemed "authorized")
It was on ESPN Canada only this week, as a matter of fact.
It struck me that Sherman got off easy, while Mara did sort of a mea culpa,
something along the lines of he was sorry he screwed up. But he seemed
genuinely surprised that the fans took it all THAT seriously -- dumb ass.
But it was inspiring, the history of this team, if not a little tragic.
I was a young fan, under 10, in the early 60s because my father was. I
remember them losing the big games, often to Cleveland. It seemed Tittle
always ran out of gas. In the documentary, they implied Sherman wanted to
take Tittle out of games during the regular season, to rest him, even the
game when he threw for 7 TDs, but he gave in to either the coaching staff,
Tittle or maybe Mara? ...
"DoctorElefant" <doctor...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030902202756...@mb-m17.aol.com...
SNUMBER6
>The young guys in here who see the proud old
>patriarch don't realize that Wellington in his day made Jim Dolan look
>good.
I disagree 100 % ... Mara may even have taken blame ... but he stayed out of
things ...he let the people he hired do their job ... his problem was hiring
the wrong people then trusting them ... like Flounder lending his brothers car
on the road trip ...
He fucked up ... he trusted his friends ... they turned on him ... I suggest he
start drinking very heavily ...
GaryFL
That's totally inaccurate. Mara was the GM. He didn't hire anybody. He
was Jerry Jones.
SNUMBER6
>That's totally inaccurate. Mara was the GM. He didn't hire anybody. He
>was Jerry Jones.
Maybe as far as title ... but he did what the head coach and staff wanted ...
unlike jerry jones ... who did what he wanted ...
and i do know Andy Robustelli was gm for quite a while .... that's who Young
replaced ... and I also remember Ray Walsh further back ...
To put Wellington Mara and Jerry Jones in the same sentence is what is totally
inaccurate ...
GaryFL
You're wrong here. Robustelli took over for Wellington after the media
began to make his life unbearable. Wellington was on the sidelines
telling Alex Webster what plays to run. He was the original Jerry
Jones in that regard. You should check into this a little more.
Robustelli was named GM in the late 70's until then Mr. Mara called
ALL the shots. That's what the crux of the Tim Mara jr.vs. Wellington
feud was all about. Later it became Tim and Parcells vs. Wellington
and George Young. As soon as Tim Mara sold his half to Bob Tisch
Parcells quit.
DoctorElefant
5HatsA...@hotmail.com (Hats N Bats) wrote:
>On 03 Sep 2003 00:27:56 GMT, doctor...@aol.com (DoctorElefant)
>You're being too conservative Doc. I started listening to the Giants
>in 1970 and other than a last game of the year against the Rams for
>the playoffs,
That was a bad day. We got murdered. But at least Ron Johnson got his 1,000
yards rushing.
>there wasn't much to enjoy until Parcells beat the
>Eagles in a wild card game.
Beating Dallas to get there was wonderful too.
>Heck even Jim Hart and the Cards used to
>beat us. All the while, the Cowpies and George Allen's Skins were
>winning over and over...
But we beat Dallas once, the Cards twice, and the Skins twice in 1970 and
should have made the playoffs--I still say Aaron Thomas was inbounds for that
TD against the Saints in week 3. That was a horrible call. I liked 1972 because
the Giants scored 62 against Philly one week and creamed Dallas on the last day
of the season for a rare winning record. Other than that, we sucked for many,
many years.
SNUMBER6
>You're wrong here. Robustelli took over for Wellington after the media
>began to make his life unbearable. Wellington was on the sidelines
>telling Alex Webster what plays to run.
I lived through that era ... and the era before ... I am going by my memories
of what was going on ...
i have always had memories of Mara as the benevolent owner ... and not
interfering ... letting the football people run things ... and giving them
their blessing ... Sherman getting the grief for those bad trades confirms that
... Huff blamed Sherman and not Mara ... seems like Allie had the say ... and
Mara listened to his judgement ...
and made the call to his coaches liking ...
GaryFL
wrote:
Parcells was the DC. Perkins was the Head Coach. LT's rookie year.
GaryFL
I agree. Allie had Wellington's ear. But Mr. Mara was the orginal
Jerry Jones. He was George Steinbrenner 10 years before George
Steinbrenner came to town.
DoctorElefant
Gary wrote:
Correct. I knew what game Hats was referring to.
DoctorElefant
Gary wrote:
I don't see any likeness to Jones or George.
tgifritz
"Hats N Bats" <5HatsA...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0q7clvkknvriurdb8...@4ax.com...
> >My father and my uncle hate Allie Sherman's guts to this day. I don't
> >remember him as coach. I went to my first game when Webster was their
coach
> >but Ive read about what an asshole Allie was. And Mr. Mara may be a good
> >man but he did a horrible job with this franchise for a long time.
> >
>
> Same situation here Fritzy.
>
>
> Hats N Bats
>
> --
>My father didn't seem to dislike Mara too much. From what I remember he
viewed Mara as kind of a bumbling fool who the game had passed by. He
always gave the credit to Jim Lee Howell. He always said that Allie
inherited Howell's team and then ruined because he wanted to win with his
own players.
tgifritz
> >My father and my uncle hate Allie Sherman's guts to this day. I don't
> >remember him as coach. I went to my first game when Webster was their
coach
> >but Ive read about what an asshole Allie was. And Mr. Mara may be a good
> >man but he did a horrible job with this franchise for a long time.
> >
>
GaryFL
wrote:
>In message-id: <utsclvs1eb27fkf3a...@4ax.com>
Not today you don't. That's the whole point.
DoctorElefant
GaryFL gdmo...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
>On 04 Sep 2003 04:13:34 GMT, doctor...@aol.com (DoctorElefant)
>wrote:
>
>>In message-id: <utsclvs1eb27fkf3a...@4ax.com>
>>
>>Gary wrote:
>>
>>>On 03 Sep 2003 19:33:20 GMT, snum...@aol.com (SNUMBER6) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>From: GaryFL gdmo...@cfl.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>>You're wrong here. Robustelli took over for Wellington after the media
>>>>>began to make his life unbearable. Wellington was on the sidelines
>>>>>telling Alex Webster what plays to run.
>>>>
>>>>I lived through that era ... and the era before ... I am going by my
>>>memories
>>>>of what was going on ...
>>>>i have always had memories of Mara as the benevolent owner ... and not
>>>>interfering ... letting the football people run things ... and giving them
>>>>their blessing ... Sherman getting the grief for those bad trades confirms
>>>that
>>>>... Huff blamed Sherman and not Mara ... seems like Allie had the say ...
>>>and
>>>>Mara listened to his judgement ...
>>>>and made the call to his coaches liking ...
>>>
>>>I agree. Allie had Wellington's ear. But Mr. Mara was the orginal
>>>Jerry Jones. He was George Steinbrenner 10 years before George
>>>Steinbrenner came to town.
>>
>>I don't see any likeness to Jones or George.
>>
>Not today you don't. That's the whole point.
I still don't understand, Gary. To hear Sam Huff tell it, Mara let Allie do
whatever he wanted. That's why he long ago forgave Mara for the trade, but says
he'll never forgive Allie. Going further back, Jim Lee Howell says Landry and
Lombardi did whatever they wanted and he just aired up the footballs. I guess I
just don't see where Mara liked running the show the way Jones or George did
years later with their teams. Is there something us youngsters don't know
about?
GaryFL
wrote:
I'm the same age you are. But people are rewriting history here. If
Sam Huff needs Allie to be the bad guy so be it. But Wellington MAra
was totally involved with the on the field product for the Giants all
through the 60's & 70's. Including game plans, draft choices, trades
and every other aspect of them totally being a laughing stock. Anyone
who says otherwise now is just wrong. That was my whole point about
him being the grand patriarch. He is that today but 35 years ago he
was Jerry Jones and George Steinbrenner without the meanness and the
marketing.
DoctorElefant
GaryFL gdmo...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
>I'm the same age you are. But people are rewriting history here. If
>Sam Huff needs Allie to be the bad guy so be it. But Wellington MAra
>was totally involved with the on the field product for the Giants all
>through the 60's & 70's. Including game plans, draft choices, trades
>and every other aspect of them totally being a laughing stock. Anyone
>who says otherwise now is just wrong. That was my whole point about
>him being the grand patriarch. He is that today but 35 years ago he
>was Jerry Jones and George Steinbrenner without the meanness and the
>marketing.
Well, thanks for the explanation, Gary. I guess much of this hinges on how
correct or incorrect is Sam Huff's view.
GaryFL
wrote:
Sam Huff's view is public record. That doesn't mean what I wrote about
Mr. Mara isn't true. It's a 100% accurate. In his day Wellington Mara
was probably the most powerful and influential owner in the NFL.
Remember he had to agree to give up all the advantages that George
Steinbrenner exploits from the revenue of the NY market. He along with
Rozelle and a few others were visionaries. But as the GM of the Giants
he was horrible.
DoctorElefant
GaryFL gdmo...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
>On 04 Sep 2003 21:52:49 GMT, doctor...@aol.com (DoctorElefant)
>wrote:
>
>>In message-id: <i6cflvgnhaakapb9o...@4ax.com>
>>
>>GaryFL gdmo...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
>>
>>>I'm the same age you are. But people are rewriting history here. If
>>>Sam Huff needs Allie to be the bad guy so be it. But Wellington MAra
>>>was totally involved with the on the field product for the Giants all
>>>through the 60's & 70's. Including game plans, draft choices, trades
>>>and every other aspect of them totally being a laughing stock. Anyone
>>>who says otherwise now is just wrong. That was my whole point about
>>>him being the grand patriarch. He is that today but 35 years ago he
>>>was Jerry Jones and George Steinbrenner without the meanness and the
>>>marketing.
>>
>>Well, thanks for the explanation, Gary. I guess much of this hinges on how
>>correct or incorrect is Sam Huff's view.
>>
>>
>Sam Huff's view is public record. That doesn't mean what I wrote about
>Mr. Mara isn't true.
>It's a 100% accurate.
I'm not trying to argue with you but I'm just trying to get your point. There
seems to be some difference of opinion about how much Sherman ran things back
in the Sam Huff days. Huff paints Allie as a tyrant (all power granted by Mara)
who only cared about offense but not defense.
> In his day Wellington Mara
>was probably the most powerful and influential owner in the NFL.
He was. No question.
>Remember he had to agree to give up all the advantages that George
>Steinbrenner exploits from the revenue of the NY market.
That is very true. He gave it up for the good of the league. That raises other
hypothetical questions. Would there even be Cowboys or Packers today had he
not? An NFL? What would the NFL be like?
>He along with
>Rozelle and a few others were visionaries. But as the GM of the Giants
>he was horrible.
This reminds me of an expression you have used before: He was what his record
says he was.