Browns Fans Are Freaks: Says a Maryland Poster
william m hebler
writes:
>
>Perhaps we FREAKS ought to contact this guy and thank him for
>his kind words.
>
>------------
>G-Man
>Save Our Browns: The Browns Jihad
>http://sob.multiverse.com
>
>
Yeah do that and prove him correct.
BHebler
George Balog
Sobol) writes:
>
>william m hebler (rol...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: In <4d8pe1$c...@wariat.wariat.org> G-Man <75702...@compuserve.com>
>: writes:
>: >
>: >Perhaps we FREAKS ought to contact this guy and thank him for
>: >his kind words.
>
>
>nahh.. I just sent him an e-mail pointing out that if Baltimore had
>the kind of dedication Cleveland does they might not have gotten
screwed
>by Robert Irsay.
>
>--
A lot of dedicated and loyal soldiers have also died when their leader
screwed up. Lemmings follow each other to their death and they are
just as dedicated to a single task. Tradition is fine except when it
strangles you and you don't know it.
A radio talk show host put it well in cleveland... we had our tradition
with the Browns. Its time to put that aside and start a new tradition
for our kids.
Steven J. Sobol
: In <4d8pe1$c...@wariat.wariat.org> G-Man <75702...@compuserve.com>
: writes:
: >
: >Perhaps we FREAKS ought to contact this guy and thank him for
: >his kind words.
: Yeah do that and prove him correct.
nahh.. I just sent him an e-mail pointing out that if Baltimore had
the kind of dedication Cleveland does they might not have gotten screwed
by Robert Irsay.
--
North Shore Technologies Ask me about the Steve Sobol, Principal
1875 East 40th Street I-WAY series of WWW Consulting &
Cleveland, OH 44103-3552 Internet-ready Computer Sales
e-mail: in...@nstc.com personal computers sjs...@nstc.com
George Balog
writes:
>
>Baltimorons opinions not required. Thank you.
Not from Baltimore, thank you.
PAUL CLEVO
Douglas Hayden
: In <4dc3gp$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> paul...@aol.com (PAUL CLEVO)
: writes:
: >
: >Baltimorons opinions not required. Thank you.
: Not from Baltimore, thank you.
Then why are you so pro-Baltimore?
----------
Douglas Hayden dha...@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu
SAVE OUR BROWNS!!! SAVE TAMPA'S BUCS!!!
----------
George Balog
>: >Baltimorons opinions not required. Thank you.
>
>: Not from Baltimore, thank you.
>
>Then why are you so pro-Baltimore?
>
>----------
>Douglas Hayden dha...@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu
>SAVE OUR BROWNS!!! SAVE TAMPA'S BUCS!!!
>----------
I am not Pro-Baltimore I am pro common sense. The Browns dont give a
hoot about you, why should you care where they move. Like a well known
sports radio talk show host says, "don't fall in love with these teams,
they'll break your heart in the end."
There are more important things to worry about than whether or not a
football team is in your city. Especially Cleveland... look at the
schools and neighborhoods.
Try Fantasy Football, you can cheer for several teams and follow the
players rather than the teams. Plus, you can win some big money in the
right Fantasy League. The beer and hot dogs are less expensive also.
George Balog
demonstrating how he will build a NEW (not renovated) stadium to
attract another Football team. That pitiful sin tax won't cut it,
especially with the cost overruns experienced in building Gateway (many
contracters still have not been paid). Now the same people that gave
you Gateway will give you a NEW stadium, yeah right. If you believe
that I have some property in Florida for ya'.
The NFL doesn't care if Cleveland has a team! Do I have to repeat
that?
There are plenty of SUCKER cities more than willing to cough up
hundreds of millions of dollars to attract a team. Why would an owner
want to go to Cleveland and set up in a 175 million dollar renovated 60
year old stadium?
The only thing that Mayor White is doing is covering his Butt. Both he
and the County Commissioners blew it big time and White wants to make
sure he looks good even though he lost the team.
G-Man
>There are plenty of SUCKER cities more than willing to cough up
>hundreds of millions of dollars to attract a team.
Like Baltimore?
------------
G-Man
Dawgs in Cyberspace: The Browns Jihad
http://sob.multiverse.com
David Koontz
>Yea, like Baltimore. And they now have the Browns, Cleveland doesn't.
>Either you pay or you lose. While Cleveland was busy worrying about
>getting a stadium for a losing Baseball team and moving the basketball
>team out of a perfectly good coliseum, the Browns felt left out and
>decided to go to greener pastures. You snooze, you lose Cleveland.
>
>Cleveland will have to enjoy the Indians and Cavaliers because it will
>be a few years before Pro football returns to the "Land of Cleves."
*************************************************************************
George, your posts continue to amaze me.... every time your fingers touch
your keyboard something thoughtless and/or stupid comes out... you
capitalize the word "baseball", refer to Mike White's ass as a "Butt"...
I for one am glad that you are on Art's side... could your real name be
David Modell?
*************************************************************************
Dan Spiegel
George Balog <gba...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Instead of threatening Baltimore and the NFL, Mayor White should be
>demonstrating how he will build a NEW (not renovated) stadium to
>attract another Football team. That pitiful sin tax won't cut it,
>especially with the cost overruns experienced in building Gateway (many
>contracters still have not been paid). Now the same people that gave
>you Gateway will give you a NEW stadium, yeah right. If you believe
>that I have some property in Florida for ya'.
considering the people who brought us Gateway seem to have brought us a
stadium already.
Between your word and the word of the people who gave us Jacobs Field,
I know who I'd believe first.
By the way, you must be an awful rich individual to term $175 million
as pitiful. My compliments.
| -DS I speak for myself only. No unsolicited e-mail, please. |
| Please do not use my name in any subject headers. |
| Obligatory quote: "Sometimes one must cut off a finger to save a hand" |
| -Po, lowly priest of Hunan province, Shao-Lin Master |
George Balog
George Balog
>>Yea, like Baltimore. And they now have the Browns, Cleveland
doesn't.
>>Either you pay or you lose. While Cleveland was busy worrying about
>>getting a stadium for a losing Baseball team and moving the
basketball
>>team out of a perfectly good coliseum, the Browns felt left out and
>>decided to go to greener pastures. You snooze, you lose Cleveland.
>>
>>Cleveland will have to enjoy the Indians and Cavaliers because it
will
>>be a few years before Pro football returns to the "Land of Cleves."
**
>George, your posts continue to amaze me.... every time your fingers
touch
>your keyboard something thoughtless and/or stupid comes out... you
>capitalize the word "baseball", refer to Mike White's ass as a
"Butt"...
>I for one am glad that you are on Art's side... could your real name
be
>David Modell?
>**********************************************************************
**
>
the big, important ones. That's because you can't deny them.
Keith Mahoney
alt.sports.football.pro.cleve-browns. The alt newsgroup contains alot of
flamers from Baltimore and when they follow up the post, it shows up on
cle.sports.
I don`t mind the bantering from the pro-Baltimore group because it is pretty
juvenile and the traffic is very low.
But, I suggest that cle.sports users to check the listed newsgroups in the
header and remove the alt group. That way our intelligent discussions don`t
get replied to by some Baltimoron in the alt group and cause flames to show
up in the cle.sports group. If you do want to post to both groups, send
two separate postings. That way any replies from the alt group won`t
propagate here.
No big deal, following the above will just help to keep up the high signal
to noise ratio that we enjoy on cle.sports.
--
Keith Mahoney
cle...@apk.net
Cleveland Sports Web Pages
http://www.cleveland.net/sports/
GWeiler817
soon his son David (who will use the profits to continue his cocaine
binges). Before you celebrate..take a look at the team and owner you have.
I mean take a good look at them. Art lies, his son can't remain sober and
clean.
It's too bad you guys didn't get an expansion team..I believe you were
wronged by Irsay...but, you're getting a bad team with a poor owner. Maybe
Model will sell the team to some people in Baltimore.
You might be doing Cleveland a favor.
Gary Weiler
Larry Oberle
Its funny how you pick out the little poinnts but you don't comment on
>the big, important ones. That's because you can't deny them.
What big, important ones? Are you still trying to sell that "poor old Art had
no choice" line of crap? They've been refuted more times than you can count
(which isn't saying much.)
Come up with some facts, and people might start to believe you. Kepp up with
the BS, and we tune you out.
Larry Oberle_...@lerc.nasa.gov__(216) 433-3647
Cleveland, you gotta be tough!
NASA Lewis Research Center (MS 77-1) 21000 Brookpark, Cle, OH 44135
Larry Oberle
>If you look at the sin tax just passed it won't bring in 175 million
>(that was the entire package, not just the sin tax - get your
>information straight).
That's right. Public money does not add up to the entire "rock solid" $175
million. There is plenty of private money in there.
> And I guarantee you it will cost a lot more
>than 175 million to rennovate the stadium and a heck of a lot more to
>build a brand new one.
Define the difference between "a lot" and "a heck of a lot." And I'll take
your guarantee, with my addendum. If the cost for renovation does not exceed
$175 million by more than 15% (my definition of "a lot") then you'll buy
season tickets for every regular on the list. Otherwise, your "guarantee" is
a lot like your comments. Worthless.
>Are you paying off the cost overruns on the Gateway project. I hope
>so. So do the contracters who have not been paid.
Haven't you been following the news? Private guarantees from the Tribe and
the Cavs will be used to pay the contractors. So quit whining about the cost
overruns, and the public moneys, ok?
Alan Dover
Rather than try to point fingers at each other and say things like
"the same to you and more of it," let me try to put in intelligent terms
what I think a lot of Browns fans are feeling, and why they're so upset
over the move to Baltimore.
First, I must assume that you are either a:
A. Baltimore resident
B. Fan of another NFL team.
If I am mistaken, let me know.
One of my earliest memories was watching the Browns. My Dad, brothers
and I would watch the games on Sunday, in front of an old black and white
TV with the sound turned down. We would put on Gib Shanley (a local radio
announcer) and watch the Browns. My Dad imparted to me the legacy of Jim
Brown, Lou Groza, Otto Graham, etc. Just as he did this with me, I looked
forward to doing this with my own children. I can no longer do this. A
dishonest, deceitful, lying man (Art Modell) took this from me and many
others. Even if Cleveland does get another team, and they are called the
Browns, it will never be the same. A part of the community in Cleveland
is gone forever, and nothing can bring it back, no more than the return of
the Colts to Baltimore can return the legacy of Unitas, Berry, Donovan,
etc.
IMO what really bothers most people in Cleveland is the way in which
Mr. Modell went about moving the team. There are numerous instances in
the public record where Mr. Modell stated that:
a. He would never move the Browns as long as he or his family
owned the team, although he might sell it to someone who would.
b. He wanted the stadium "renovated," and not a new stadium.
c. He was opting out of the Gateway Project.
d. He wanted to remain at the stadium.
e. If the Browns didn't win the Super Bowl within five years, he
would sell the team and leave football.
f. He would not discuss the move to Baltimore until after the
1995 season (the so-called "moratorium").
There are other falsehoods Mr. Modell enumerated over the past few
years and months (I'm sure you've seen them in this newsgroup), so I won't
recap them. However, I think you know that Mr. Modell said all of the
things I've noted. If you don't believe me, you can look them up. I
suggest any Cleveland newstation or the Cleveland Plain Dealer (or Sports
Illustrated, the Sporting News, etc.).
The bottom line is this: the people of Cleveland trusted Art Modell
as a man of his word. We believed him when he said he wouldn't move the
team. Simply, Mr. Modell lied. Lied to the people who lined his (and his
family's) pockets for approximately 35 years. Lied to the people who
consistently filled Cleveland Stadium with 50,000-70,000 fans each game,
even during losing seasons. Lied to the people who made Cleveland one of
the top TV markets in the NFL. (See the SI article).
It is this betrayal of our collective trust which angers Clevelanders
(at home and abroad) so.
Objectively, I realize that NFL franchises are businesses, and the
owner runs his business as he sees fit, within the letter of laws laid
down by our elected officials. I also understand that Mr. Modell can move
his team to Outer Mongolia if he wishes. It is HIS team (as we learned to
our dismay) in a legally binding sense. From a business point of view,
Mr. Modell can pretty much do as he pleases.
However, his actions are just the latest in a series of events which
signify the declining moral and ethical standards plaguing our nation. It
used to be we cheered people like Lou Gehrig, who played day after day,
for years; like Amelia Earhart when she broke flying records; like Chuck
Yeager, who broke the sound barrier. We recognized these Americans for
their achievements, not how much money they made, or how much gold they
wore, or how "flashy" they were. We treasured their honesty, integrity,
and above all, the example they set for other Americans.
Now, we hold aloft people like Deion Sanders (an overrated player if
there ever was one. I don't care how many positions he plays. As they
say, Jack of all Trades, Master of None), who does commercials with Jerry
Jones effectively flaunting his $35 million paycheck; Jack MacDowell, who
flips fans the finger; Andre Rison, who says "*uck the fans," etc., etc.
Our elected officials aren't held accountable or abuse their power (does
Dan Rostenkowski ring a bell?), or lie (look at the President and his
pledge of a middle-class tax cut) and get away with it. We've come to
accept that less than the truth is okay, that it's more important to be
rich than right, trustworthy, or honest. We now forget things that 20 to
30 years ago we never would have tolerated.
This is why Art Modell thinks he can get away with his documented trail
of deceit. No one is going to care. If Jack McDowell had flipped off the
Yankee faithful during the 30's, 40's, or 50's, he'd be out of a job.
Now, it's just a newsclip and a fine.
This is the real background to the backlash against Art Modell. He
lied, plain and simple. We can talk forever about Gateway, stadium
attendance, fan loyalty, etc., until the cows come home. It won't change
the fact that in the most dubious and under-handed way, Mr. Modell
blatantly lied to tens of thousands of loyal, supporting fans. And, it
won't change the fact that for now, football as we knew it in the city of
Cleveland is dead.
Former Cleveland Browns fans have only memories to hold on to now.
At least we have those. Art Modell might as well forget what he's done
the last 35 years. A man who was once the toast of the town can no longer
visit Cleveland (at least not without security which rivals the
President's). He is persona non grata. He is hated. No one will
remember the good things Art Modell did for Cleveland (and he did many).
He will be remembered only as the man who moved the Browns. His
accomplishments, in effect, amount to nothing, in one instant.
Sports teams come and go (don't we know it!), but the city and its
people remain. We'll get another team eventually. They may not be called
the Browns. Regardless, as I said before, it will never be the same. A
part of the soul of the people and City of Cleveland has died. That is
the saddest legacy of all.
CPT Alan J. Dover
Fort Bragg, NC
George Balog
>>Instead of threatening Baltimore and the NFL, Mayor White should be
>>demonstrating how he will build a NEW (not renovated) stadium to
>>attract another Football team.
>
>>That pitiful sin tax won't cut it ...
>>Why would an owner
>>want to go to Cleveland and set up in a 175 million dollar renovated
60
>>year old stadium?
>
No Team..... No Problem!
NEW TEAM, NEW TRADITION!!
David Hoffman
In article <4denql$1...@cloner2.ix.netcom.com> George Balog wrote:
>There are more important things to worry about than whether or not a
>football team is in your city. Especially Cleveland... look at the
>schools and neighborhoods.
THANK YOU MISTER ROGERS
Especially Cleveland? I can think of a lot more cities worse off
than Cleveland. Besides that, you can say that about every city. And a
lot of that has nothing to do with tax dollars. You can pump $30 mil into
a school and kids won't get better grades. It starts with the parents.
That's not the issue though.
>Try Fantasy Football, you can cheer for several teams and follow the
>players rather than the teams. Plus, you can win some big money in the
>right Fantasy League. The beer and hot dogs are less expensive also.
Yeah, that sounds like fun.(Blatant sarcasm). I've been in a league
for 7 years, and won 3 championships, who cares. I'm not going back. The
fun is gone.
If you aren't a Cleveland Browns fan, than leave. Go to ->
alt.sports.football.pro.front-runners
NO TEAM... NO PEACE... NO MERCY
Brad
>>
>Its funny how you pick out the little poinnts but you don't comment on
>the big, important ones. That's because you can't deny them.
Whats that old saying "Those who live in glass houses........"
You have never once addressed the issue of the city pursuing Modell
and his participation in the Gateway project (he refused). Now he
whines that he was not included. This is a FACT not mindless drivel
oooooozing from your brain.
Please comment on that before you defend Art on his "inability" to
secure a new stadium from the city.
***********************************
Life Long Indians Fan For 35 Years
Tribe in '96!!
**********************************
J.P.M.
First thing to do would to be getting rid of "The Dawgs" name, it's
outlived its time. When Hanford and Minnie went, so should have the
Dawgs, although God Bless J.T.
Larry Oberle
>he {Modell} no longer feels "loved". THis
>is the driving force in his life; he hopes to find it again in
>Baltimore. While he might for a year or so, as soon as they start
>losing (and while his family owns the team they will), Baltimore
>Whatever fans will start turning off to him just like they did in
>Cleveland.
John, You're dead wrong here. Many Cleveland fans of the past generation
hated Modell for what he did to Paul Brown, but they (including my dad) never
quit following the Browns. Many of my generation hated Modell for what he did
to BK, but we (including me) never quit following the Browns.
Do you HONESTLY believe that after 2 or 3 years of the BS that we put up with,
and knowing that if they don't buy tickets, the money will come out of city
coffers to guarantee those sellouts; that the "fans" of Baltimore will STILL
come out and watch his pathetic excuse for a team?
Only we Cleveland fans can and would be that stupid (read: loyal)
George Balog
Art decided he did not want a rennovated stadium. Why is that so hard
to understand. He got a better deal and he took it. Not a nice thing
to do to Cleveland but then a lot of businessmen think of the bottom
line. Plus, he is probably thinking of the future and his son David.
I wouldn't have done what he did. But he did it.
No we have to pick up the pieces and move on. Crying on national TV
won't do it for us.
George Balog
writes:
Blame the politicians, blame Modell, blame the fans for being suckers.
It doesn't help in the end. The team is still gone. Let's learn from
our mistakes and move on. Get a new stadium. Get a new team. Build a
new tradition.
New Team! New Tradition!!
George Balog
>George,
>
> Rather than try to point fingers at each other and say things like
>"the same to you and more of it," let me try to put in intelligent
terms
>what I think a lot of Browns fans are feeling, and why they're so
upset
>over the move to Baltimore.
>
> First, I must assume that you are either a:
> A. Baltimore resident
> B. Fan of another NFL team.
> If I am mistaken, let me know.
Incorrect...
A. Clevelander
B. Fan of many NFL teams, avid Fantasy Football fan
>
My dad and I did a lot of things together, also. Many of the things
and places involved in those activities are now gone but it was the
memory of doing experiencing those things with my dad that lives on.
Not the "object" or what we did but that we did it together.
I assume you are not new to disappointments in life. If there is
something you can do about the situation, you do it. But there comes a
time when you have to say enough is enough and admit further resistance
is useless and futile. You count your losses, mourn, resolve to learn
from the incident, and move on.
If you put the wrong people on a pedastal you will probably be
disappointed by their actions.
If you don't put things into perspective and realize that sports are
games, and nothing more, then you will be disappointed (by a loss, by a
trade, by a team moving).
It's interesting you are shocked by Modell. Many owners of large
corporations and/or sports teams are just like many politicians. They
tell you one thing and do another. Surely you have discovered that in
your life. If you thought Modell's moratorium meant a true moratorium
and nothing more then your naivete exhibits itself. I've learned in
life not to count so much on what a person says but on what a person
does. Life is a lot less surprising that way.
>
> This is why Art Modell thinks he can get away with his documented
trail of deceit. No one is going to care.
The same reason politicians get away with things. I will cut taxes
(they get elected and they raise taxes). I will end the war honorably
(they sell out our allies). I will balance the budget (yeah, sure).
> Former Cleveland Browns fans have only memories to hold on to
now.
>At least we have those. Art Modell might as well forget what he's
done
>the last 35 years. A man who was once the toast of the town can no
longer
>visit Cleveland (at least not without security which rivals the
>President's). He is persona non grata. He is hated. No one will
>remember the good things Art Modell did for Cleveland (and he did
many).
Don't you think he knew that when he started this whole thing? Gee, I
wonder why he went ahead and did it? Someone (our Politicians) mislead
him and he responded by doing the only thing he knew. He acted just
like them and mislead them in return. Or maybe he just has very lousy
business skills and totally mismanaged the team.
> Sports teams come and go (don't we know it!), but the city and
its
>people remain. We'll get another team eventually. They may not be
called
>the Browns. Regardless, as I said before, it will never be the same.
A
>part of the soul of the people and City of Cleveland has died.
And a new part of that soul will be born when a new team arrives and a
new tradition is begun.
But there will be other teams and other memories and life will go on.
Put it all in perspective, its not the end of the world. Enjoy the
birth of your son, look at a sunset, go camping, breathe some fresh
mountain air, but don't get hung up on the Browns (or any other NFL
team) to the point they will break your heart. And they will
eventually if you allow it.
Miles
>
>No we have to pick up the pieces and move on. Crying on national TV
>won't do it for us.
>
>
In that context, you're absolutely right. Crying on national TV will
accomplish about as much as phoney "contract waving" press conferences
and staged infomercial interviews on WBAL.
BTW, did you get paid overtime that day your masters hustled you out to
stand in front of Modell's lotto jackpot fantasy stadium?
David Koontz
>>George, your posts continue to amaze me.... every time your fingers
>touch
>>your keyboard something thoughtless and/or stupid comes out... you
>>capitalize the word "baseball", refer to Mike White's ass as a
>"Butt"...
>>I for one am glad that you are on Art's side... could your real name
>be
>>David Modell?
>>**********************************************************************
>**
>>
>the big, important ones. That's because you can't deny them.
Your blatant ignorance is not a "little poinnt"... if you are going to
invade a Cleveland Browns newsgroup and make a complete ass of yourself,
you may wish to be a bit more careful of your spelling and overall
sentence structure... my twelve year old nephew expresses himself more
intelligently than you.
George, shouldn't you get the hell out of our newsgroup and spend a
little more time cleaning the garbage off the streets of Baltimore? Are
you dialing into the Net on your time or are you using your boss'
dime... maybe your superiors would like to read a sample of your mail.
John Lansford
>If you look at the sin tax just passed it won't bring in 175 million
>(that was the entire package, not just the sin tax - get your
>information straight). And I guarantee you it will cost a lot more
>than 175 million to rennovate the stadium and a heck of a lot more to
>build a brand new one.
It wasn't designed to bring in ALL the $175 million. It was designed
to bring in the last bit needed to REACH $175 million. Is that a
difficult concept for you to understand? It's only been mentioned a
dozen times since November here.
As to the renovation costing more than $175 million, that's entirely
possible. Apparently Cleveland figured that out as well, which is why
there is a cost overrun percentage already built into the financial
package. The owners looked at all of this and pronounced it
acceptable, although they would prefer a brand new stadium for some
reason.
Now Cleveland is guaranteeing an owner at least $20 million/year from
sales of concessions, parking, seats and advertising in the stadium.
This is over and above the renovation plan and not mentioned before.
In other words, if the Browns' owner is pleading poverty, Cleveland
has a package already put together that would put him in the top
quarter of teams in income.
He's not moving because of all the money; he's moving because he has
wore out his welcome in Cleveland and he no longer feels "loved". THis
is the driving force in his life; he hopes to find it again in
Baltimore. While he might for a year or so, as soon as they start
losing (and while his family owns the team they will), Baltimore
Whatever fans will start turning off to him just like they did in
Cleveland.
John Lansford
David Hoffman
In article <4dfami$h...@cloner2.ix.netcom.com> David Koontz wrote:
>*************************************************************************
>George, your posts continue to amaze me.... every time your fingers touch
>your keyboard something thoughtless and/or stupid comes out... you
>capitalize the word "baseball", refer to Mike White's ass as a "Butt"...
>I for one am glad that you are on Art's side... could your real name be
>David Modell?
NO! Art's bastard son, David, is still learning to dress himself.
What makes you think he knows how to turn on a light switch, or a computer
for that matter.
John Schmid
alan...@aol.com writes:
> Objectively, I realize that NFL franchises are businesses, and the
>owner runs his business as he sees fit, within the letter of laws laid
>down by our elected officials. I also understand that Mr. Modell can move
>his team to Outer Mongolia if he wishes. It is HIS team (as we learned to
>our dismay) in a legally binding sense. From a business point of view,
>Mr. Modell can pretty much do as he pleases.
>
Alan, I agree with everything you said - EXCEPT the portion above. Art
can not move his team anywhere he wants - unless contracts no longer mean
anything in this country.
Which is the biggest problem I see with a new team taking over the Browns
name etc.
What do we do with the new owner? Have him sign a contract? We now know
that doesn't mean anything to owners in the NFL.
The NFL rules don't mean anything to them either. Modell agreed to abide
by the rules of the NFL when he bought the team. He now says he will move
the team REGUARDLESS of what the NFL owners vote. He even signed a
CONTRACT with Baltimore to sue the NFL if they voted against him. Let me
put that another way. He will sue the NFL against the rules that he
agreed to follow! WHAT A MAN!
We thought Modell was a Clevelander, but remember - he wasn't born here.
The only protection that we have is to insist on local ownership. A local
owner or ownership group wouldn't be so fast to chase the might bucks.
They would still want to live in this community - not find themselves
welcome in only one city in the whole country.
George Balog
writes:
>
>gba...@ix.netcom.com(George Balog ) wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Art decided he did not want a rennovated stadium. Why is that so
hard
>>to understand. He got a better deal and he took it. Not a nice
thing
>>to do to Cleveland but then a lot of businessmen think of the bottom
>>line. Plus, he is probably thinking of the future and his son David.
>>I wouldn't have done what he did. But he did it.
>
>He said renovation of the stadium ---when he backed out of Gateway---
>would suit his purposes. There are his exact quotes somewhere around
>here but the gist of it is what I said. He then stated that he wanted
>the renovation done by the time the lease expired in 1999. Then he
>said if it wasn't done, he might sell the team to someone who might
>move it, but he would NEVER move the team.
>
>These statements have all been quoted from the owner's mouth. I guess
>the Cleveland politicians aren't supposed to believe what he says, but
>instead have to use ESP to determine what he REALLY wants.
>
>>No we have to pick up the pieces and move on. Crying on national TV
>>won't do it for us.
>
>What's this WE crap? You've been one of the most antagonistic,
>prolific and obnoxious posters on this group in the recent month. You
>have no allies here among Browns' fans. Hit the road and go found a
>alt.pro.balt.browns group if you want. Then you can talk to yourself
>all you like.
>
>John Lansford
>>
>
Oh, you have exclusive rights to this newgroup?
Antagonistic, obnoxious in what way. Do you have a specific example?
I guess you can't face the truth.
David Roberts
>George,
> Sports teams come and go (don't we know it!), but the city and its
>people remain. We'll get another team eventually. They may not be called
>the Browns. Regardless, as I said before, it will never be the same. A
>part of the soul of the people and City of Cleveland has died. That is
>the saddest legacy of all.
>CPT Alan J. Dover
>Fort Bragg, NC
An excellent summary of the situation, Alan. It's a shame that it had
to be written in response to a person who obviously has no sense of
loyalty or loss, however. Speaking for those of us who actually enjoy
life, I thank you.
George, however, will have to speak for himself.
David L. Roberts
The Cleveland Browns Backers of Texas (Dallas)
Website: http://www.ballistic.com/~dlrob/bbackers.html
SAVE OUR CLEVELAND BROWNS----50 YEARS OF FANTASTIC FAN SUPPORT!!!
David Roberts
>Antagonistic, obnoxious in what way. Do you have a specific example?
>I guess you can't face the truth.
George:
I, for one, defend your right to continue to be a total jerk, if that
is what you choose to be. Please feel free to continue with your
immature rantings, scoldings, and anything else you wish to throw in
the pot. We all realize what you are. The question is: Do you?
Get a life.
Kevin Davis
>>You have never once addressed the issue of the city pursuing Modell
>>and his participation in the Gateway project (he refused). Now he
>>whines that he was not included. This is a FACT not mindless drivel
>>oooooozing from your brain.
>>
>>Please comment on that before you defend Art on his "inability" to
>>secure a new stadium from the city.
>Art decided he did not want a rennovated stadium. Why is that so hard
>to understand.
Because he asked the city to vote for $$$ to do just that.
>He got a better deal and he took it. Not a nice thing
>to do to Cleveland
Not to mention illegal.
>No we have to pick up the pieces and move on. Crying on national TV
>won't do it for us.
Define "crying". What is not crying? giving up hope like a spineless
weenie?
John Lansford
>
>Art decided he did not want a rennovated stadium. Why is that so hard
>to understand. He got a better deal and he took it. Not a nice thing
>to do to Cleveland but then a lot of businessmen think of the bottom
>line. Plus, he is probably thinking of the future and his son David.
>I wouldn't have done what he did. But he did it.
He said renovation of the stadium ---when he backed out of Gateway---
would suit his purposes. There are his exact quotes somewhere around
here but the gist of it is what I said. He then stated that he wanted
the renovation done by the time the lease expired in 1999. Then he
said if it wasn't done, he might sell the team to someone who might
move it, but he would NEVER move the team.
These statements have all been quoted from the owner's mouth. I guess
the Cleveland politicians aren't supposed to believe what he says, but
instead have to use ESP to determine what he REALLY wants.
>No we have to pick up the pieces and move on. Crying on national TV
>won't do it for us.
What's this WE crap? You've been one of the most antagonistic,
John Lansford
>Art decided he did not want a rennovated stadium.
Incorrect. He stated publicly that a renovated stadium was EXACTLY
what he wanted.
Why is that so hard
>to understand.
Why do you keep ignoring the truth, Mr. Public Works Director of
Baltimore?
He got a better deal and he took it. Not a nice thing
>to do to Cleveland but then a lot of businessmen think of the bottom
>line. Plus, he is probably thinking of the future and his son David.
>I wouldn't have done what he did. But he did it.
Yeah, he wants to go somewhere where the fans will "love" him. He
needs to go find that idiot in the Bud Light commercial...
>No we have to pick up the pieces and move on. Crying on national TV
>won't do it for us.
What's this WE crap? You've stated before you WANT the team in
Baltimore. You have no allies here among Browns' fans. Go start an
alt.pro.balt.browns topic so you can talk to yourself over there.
John Lansford
>
drs...@ni.cba.csuohio.edu
: In <4df6o0$a...@wariat.wariat.org> G-Man <75702...@compuserve.com>: >>There are plenty of SUCKER cities more than willing to cough up
: >>hundreds of millions of dollars to attract a team.
: >Like Baltimore?
: Yea, like Baltimore. And they now have the Browns, Cleveland doesn't.
: Either you pay or you lose. While Cleveland was busy worrying about
: getting a stadium for a losing Baseball team and moving the basketball
: team out of a perfectly good coliseum, the Browns felt left out and
: decided to go to greener pastures. You snooze, you lose Cleveland.
You seem to have an awful habit of counting your chickens before
they're hatched.. The Browns will have serious trouble if they are forced
to play their home games in Cleveland for the next two years.. oh.. wait,
I forgot.. I'm sure Baltimorians don't care that they're spending $200
million and paying for the Browns to play in Cleveland 'eh? They sound
stupider than I thought. BTW: about the losing Baseball team.. yea.. I
see what you mean.. it sucks that we had to settle with just winning the
American League championship last year.. btw: do the Orioles still play
baseball in Baltimore of have they moved? I guess they're one of those
teams that sort of exist, yet you never hear anyone talk about them
because they suck. As for the Coliseum.. sure.. it was perfect.. if you
were willing to drive for a half hour to get there.. ;)
: Cleveland will have to enjoy the Indians and Cavaliers because it will
: be a few years before Pro football returns to the "Land of Cleves."
Go stick a fork up your arse.. I think your argument is done.
--
---------------------------------------------------------
drs...@ni.cba.csuohio.edu
web page - http://ni.cba.csuohio.edu/~drsoran
drs...@ni.cba.csuohio.edu
: >>Instead of threatening Baltimore and the NFL, Mayor White should be
: >>demonstrating how he will build a NEW (not renovated) stadium to
: >>attract another Football team.
: >
: >>That pitiful sin tax won't cut it ...
: >>Why would an owner
: >>want to go to Cleveland and set up in a 175 million dollar renovated
: 60
: >>year old stadium?
: >
: No Team..... No Problem!
: NEW TEAM, NEW TRADITION!!
You schmucks really don't understand what you paid for do you?
The Browns aren't the type of team that BELONGS in anything other than a
60 year old rennovated stadium.. at least under Modell they're not. BTW:
You DO realize that under Modell's leadership the Browns have never one a
championship after 1964 don't you? Oh well.. no hard feelings.. if we
have to wait till 2000 for expansion then so be it.. maybe up until then
Ohio State can scrimmage against the Browns hmm? I'm sure they'd go easy
on you guys though if you asked them to.. It'd be truely sad to see
Cleveland's expansion team beat the Browns to the Super Bowl wouldn't
it? Hmm.. that's not a bad idea.. draft the entire Ohio State football
team to become the new Cleveland Browns.. rofl.
drs...@ni.cba.csuohio.edu
: In article <4depas$e...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
: George Balog <gba...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: >Instead of threatening Baltimore and the NFL, Mayor White should be
: >demonstrating how he will build a NEW (not renovated) stadium to
: >especially with the cost overruns experienced in building Gateway (many
: >contracters still have not been paid). Now the same people that gave
: >you Gateway will give you a NEW stadium, yeah right. If you believe
: >that I have some property in Florida for ya'.
:
: Interesting observation. I expect that the Florida land is beachfront,
: considering the people who brought us Gateway seem to have brought us a
: stadium already.
: Between your word and the word of the people who gave us Jacobs Field,
: I know who I'd believe first.
True.. during the World Series.. (you guys in Baltimore remember
that don't you? Its where you play a 7 game series and the winner is
like the champion of the world type thing?) the hosts didn't go for long
without complimenting Jacob's Field.
drs...@ni.cba.csuohio.edu
: Art decided he did not want a rennovated stadium. Why is that so hard
: to understand. He got a better deal and he took it. Not a nice thing
: to do to Cleveland but then a lot of businessmen think of the bottom
: line. Plus, he is probably thinking of the future and his son David.
: I wouldn't have done what he did. But he did it.
Hell.. if the future of David is all he's concerned about I think
we in the city of Cleveland would be more than happy to supply him with a
lifetime supply of sheep, dildos, and KY-Jelly.. maybe some of us could
band together and hire him to start our cars in the morning for us.. come
on guys.. heaven forbid David actually had to live on only $20 million or
had to actually get a REAL job that his daddy didn't provide for him..
sheesh.
George Balog
ge...@minerva.cis.yale.edy (Jeremy A. Paris) writes:
>
>In article <4dhki6$p...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
gba...@ix.netcom.com(George
>Balog ) wrote:
>
>>
>> Blame the politicians, blame Modell, blame the fans for being
suckers.
>> It doesn't help in the end. The team is still gone. Let's learn
from
>> our mistakes and move on. Get a new stadium. Get a new team.
Build a
>> new tradition.
>>
>> New Team! New Tradition!!
>
>
>Pathetic. We know we're winning this battle. I hope Baltimore NEVER
gets
>a team. I used to like Baltimore--I worked there this summer. They
don;t
>desevre anything. Save the CLEVELAND BROWNS. Screw Art Modell!
Jeremy knows not of what he speaks. If he worked in Baltimore than
maybe he knows that Balog guy everyone is speaking of. If so, he
wouldn't post the above.
Larry Oberle
>Two years is nothing. Even Baltimore fans can generate two years of
>loyalty to such an incompetent owner as the current Browns'.
Looking at the attendance figures for the Baltimore Colts, it appears that you
are right. It was in the third year of Irsay's whining that attendance
dropped off the table.
Larry Oberle
>Moses Cleaveland wasn't born in Cleveland either...
And he only spent a day or so at the mouth of the Cuyahoga.
That means I don't want him to own the team either.
George Balog
writes:
>
>George Balog (Gba...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>"The NFL doesn't care if Cleveland has a team. Do I have to repeat
that?"
>
>Wrong, George. The NFL cares immensely. That is why they are
travelling
>at warp speed to find a resolution to this mess. A resolution that,
by
>the way, will result in another team (Bucs, most likely) moving to
>Cleveland.
Warp speed, they delayed the vote.
That's warp speed?
David Hoffman
In article <1996Jan17...@ubmail.ubalt.edu> mfunk wrote:
>I'll address this issue. The Wall Street Journal reported that Modell was
>offered the use of Jacobs field, expanded with temporary seating. He was
>not offered a new stadium. Modell declined that offer because he wanted
>his own stadium and did not want to be play second fiddle to the Indians.
>To say that Modell was offered a new stadium by participation in the
> Gateway
>project is not correct. These are the facts. Whether is was right or
> wrong
>for Modell to decline this particular offer is debatable. But from
> Modell's
>perspective, he saw a new Indians owner burst on the scene, threaten to
> move,
>and therefore get priority treatment while Modell had been there for 30
>years and the city offers to roll out temporary seats in the Indians
> stadium.
>I believe a reasonable person could see where Modell would take that as a
>slap in the face. Look it up for yourself if you want. It's the Dec 15th
>issue.
>
>Mike Funk
That's not necessarily correct. At the time of that proposition,
1990, there was no Jacob's Field. There was no Gund Arena.
There was only the basis for the Gateway project. The offer was a
multi-purpose stadium used for baseball and football. The design
wasn't even drafted yet.
Multi-purpose stadiums aren't designed to cater to one
sport, and Jacob's Field is a baseball stadium. Look at the
dimensions.
You're right though. At the time, Modell was not offered a
new stadium. He was offered to share a new stadium. The design
on the table had a 60,000+ seating capacity, with retractable
sections, like Candlestick. Modell didn't want anything less than
70,000+ seats. We all know, at least in Cleveland, what baseball
looks like in an 80,000 seat stadium. Even when the Tribe drew
over 60,000, which they did several times every year, the place still
looked empty. So Jacobs wanted a smaller stadium.
BTW, to that guy who mentioned the Indians drawing
4,000 fans a game, have you ever seen the movie, Major League?
That stadium fly-by near the end was taken by a helicopter at a real
Indians game. I was there. The film was not edited with special
effects to put people in the seats. 70,000 watching the Indians,
who were something like 23-57 at the time.
Anyway, Jacobs did threaten to move, and that was
justified by low attendance, and playing in a mammoth stadium.
True, Modell had been here for 30 years, but his lease (in 1990)
expired in 9 years, while Jacobs was closest to the door.
With Modell's disinterest in sharing a smaller stadium,
along with his words of, "I'll never move the team," and "I'll wait
my turn," the city began the project, resulting in Jacob's Field, and
Gund Arena.
Then they had 9 years to take care of Modell. As of today,
they still have 3 years to take care of it. The earliest reported
proposal was issued in 1994, which was declined for unspecified
reasons.
Please type in the entire article. As of now, that story gets
an "I" for incomplete.
FYouModell
says...
>
>First thing to do would to be getting rid of "The Dawgs" name, it's
>outlived its time. When Hanford and Minnie went, so should have the
>Dawgs, although God Bless J.T.
J.T.??? J.T.??? Who is J.T. Mr. armalite Baltimore Moag lackey pretend to
be a Browns fan idiot? SAME TEAM!! SAME TRADITION!!!
Kevin Davis
>Warp speed, they delayed the vote.
>That's warp speed?
And gee, if it was all so cut and dried, why the delay?
Logical thinking does not seem to be your forte.
CmdenYard
writes:
>: Between your word and the word of the people who gave us Jacobs Field,
>: I know who I'd believe first.
>
> True.. during the World Series.. (you guys in Baltimore remember
>that don't you? Its where you play a 7 game series and the winner is
>like the champion of the world type thing?) the hosts didn't go for long
>without complimenting Jacob's Field.
>
>
They get into one Series in 40 years and suddenly Indians fans are
postseason experts. Sheesh. The Orioles were born the year the Indians
last got into a WS (not counting last year - I did remember Atlanta won).
The O's have been in six Series since...seven including 1996.
George Balog
>Well, Georgie, it's beginning to look like Baltimore is going to
>get Modell after all. The governor and Moag and guys like you
>deserve what you're going to get.
>
>Enjoy.
>
I'm not getting him, I'm getting rid of him.
NEW TEAM! NEW TRADITION!!
George Balog
writes:
James M. Hodsden
> gba...@ix.netcom.com(George Balog ) writes:
>>I know he wanted no part of GATEWAY but that still doesn't mean they
>>had to build a new arena at Gateway. You ignored my comment about the
>>coliseum. What was wrong with the Coliseum. It is easily accessible.
>>It is in great condition. It is centrally located. So why did they
>>have to move the Cavs downtown?
>The county commissioners felt that a vote on the sin-tax to provide a facility
>for the Tribe alone, would fail. They tried for months (actually begging) to
>get Art to change his mind and jump into Gateway, but he continually refused.
>So they went to the Gunds, and offered them the store, so that the Tribe would
>stay in town.
>I thought that all informed Clevelanders knew this stuff.
Which goes to show that Balog is not an informed Clevelander. <g>
Sara, using James' account!
John Schmid
Packard Company. Somehow when I came across the following, I thought of
Modell and the Browns.
HP has business in many communities - these are our guiding principles.
* Each community must be better for our pressence.
* Adjust our interests to that of the community.
* Contributing talent, energy, time, and financial support.
* Applying the highest standards of honesty and integrety to all our
relationships with individuals and groups.
How did Modell and the Browns stack up to HP principles? How about the
NFL?
George Balog
>
>Answer the f**king question, Balog! You persist in getting around the
>question. Are you actually insane?! Are you f**king aware of the
facts of
>the case that Modell was the driving force behind a renovated stadium
idea,
>going so far as to present a plan (albeit a terriblel one) to the
media at
>one point several years ago. He said he was fine where he was when he
>backed out of Gateway. Acknowledge his lies, you bastard! All of
them!
>The moratorium on discussion. Saying he would NEVER move the team!
He may
>end up getting at least part of his way, but you WILL acknowledge that
he
>has lied repeadedly. OH yes, Cleveland will have a team and it will
be
>called the BROWNS and we will have earned it with our persistent
support.
>Baltimore, too, will get what it deserves, a lying pile of Dawg crap
named
>Modell.
>
>
We will all be surprised when we find out what we get in a couple of
weeks.
NEW TEAM, NEW TRADITION!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>j
Jason Ehas
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!neoucom.edu!wariat.org!aegis.nitco.com!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>From: cmde...@aol.com (CmdenYard)
>Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.cleve-browns,cle.sports
>Subject: Re: Browns Fans Don't get it!
>Date: 19 Jan 1996 07:56:15 -0500
>Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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>Xref: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu alt.sports.football.pro.cleve-browns:15221 cle.sports:28585
The O's were "born" in name only in 1954, after Baltimore STOLE the St. Louis
Browns (gee, I sense a pattern). I think the Bullets were stolen too, from
Syracuse maybe? But you lost them anyway, so it's irrelevant.
Jason Ehas
George Balog
Gee, I didn't know Modell and the Browns worked for Hewlett Packard.
Douglas Hayden
: >With every post, you show less knowledge of the Cleveland area.
: Nobody who
: >ever went to a Cavs game at the Coliseum would ever state that we had
: "easy
: >access and egress."
: >
: Never had a problem when I went there. But then, some people drive
: better than others.
Well, that explains it: either you're Superman or you live nextdoor to
the Coliseum. Give it a break, George. You sound less and less like a
Clevelander each time you speak. Go move to Palm Beach or Baltimore or
somewhere. Oh wait, I forgot, you're there already.
----------
Douglas Hayden dha...@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu
SAVE OUR BROWNS!!! SAVE TAMPA'S BUCS!!!
----------
Guy Fletcher
ge...@minerva.cis.yale.edy (Jeremy A. Paris) wrote:
>Answer the f**king question, Balog! You persist in getting around the
>question. Are you actually insane?! Are you f**king aware of the facts of
>the case that Modell was the driving force behind a renovated stadium idea,
>going so far as to present a plan (albeit a terriblel one) to the media at
>one point several years ago. He said he was fine where he was when he
>backed out of Gateway. Acknowledge his lies, you bastard! All of them!
>The moratorium on discussion. Saying he would NEVER move the team! He may
>end up getting at least part of his way, but you WILL acknowledge that he
>has lied repeadedly. OH yes, Cleveland will have a team and it will be
>called the BROWNS and we will have earned it with our persistent support.
>Baltimore, too, will get what it deserves, a lying pile of Dawg crap named
>Modell.
Have you ever thought about Prozac, Jeremy? You might want to check out
medication, therapy or perhaps cancelling your subscription to Soldier of
Fortune as soon as possible. <g>
Guy Fletcher
George Balog
>cmde...@aol.com (CmdenYard) writes:
>
>>Well, Browns fans? Is this the way it was or not?
>
>
>According to the PD and the Lake County News Herald, AT THE TIME ALL
THIS WAS
>GOING DOWN, Modell repeatedly refused to be involved with the design,
or
>makeup of the Gateway project. The County Commissioners were
convinced that a
>baseball-only facility wouldn't fly, and BEGGED Art to help them
design a
>facility that would meet his needs for football, and then be downsized
for
>baseball.
>
>At that point, Art said he wanted to stay at the Stadium. He wouldn't
talk to
>them about anything having to do with NOT being at the Stadium. As a
last
>resort, the county put into the plans the werewithal to change Jacobs
Field
>into a multi-use facility at some later date.
>
>
>He had the opportunity to make a major change in the Gateway project,
but
>figured that it would fail, and so stayed out of it.
>
>Larry Oberle_...@lerc.nasa.gov__(216) 433-3647
>Cleveland, you gotta be tough!
>NASA Lewis Research Center (MS 77-1) 21000 Brookpark, Cle, OH 44135
>
Well, from what I remember we were told the "sin" tax was it when it
came to public contribution to Gateway but then we saw our State money
being funneled into the project (seems original estimates were a bit
low). Also, there is still a cost overrun that had been addressed but
not corrected.
Now they say the new SIN tax (or extension as they call it) is not a
TAX INCREASE. But think about this...
If you are paying $200 a year for a car for three years (to pay it off)
and someone comes by and says you will have to pay the same amount for
another 3 years would you consider that a) an increase in the total
amount payed or B) not a new tax?
Now if you are a Cleveland sports fan you will agree to pay the $200
for another 3 years and be happy at the end of 6 years when you get the
title from the bank.
James M. Hodsden
>>mf...@ubmail.ubalt.edu writes:
>>>I'll address this issue. The Wall Street Journal reported that Modell
>>was
>>>offered the use of Jacobs field, expanded with temporary seating. He was
>>>not offered a new stadium. Modell declined that offer because he wanted
>>>his own stadium and did not want to be play second fiddle to the Indians.
This is a very "Modellesque" interpretation of the situation. The fact
is, Art got a heck of a lot of $$$ as long as the Indians were still
playing in Muny Stadium. He probably thought that if he did not back up
Gateway, it wouldn't fly, and he could keep the revenue from the Indians
(he overcharged the Tribe to play there; he got all the concession money,
including a large chunk of the souvenir monies, if I am not mistaken.)
Art made many of his millions by holding the Tribe hostage in Muny
stadium...and the threat of a new stadium threatened the lining of his
pockets. When Gateway finally came together, I imagine Art was quite
suprised; and he probably regretted not getting in on it. But that's not
Cleveland's fault, that's his fault.
>According to the PD and the Lake County News Herald, AT THE TIME ALL THIS WAS
>GOING DOWN, Modell repeatedly refused to be involved with the design, or
>makeup of the Gateway project. The County Commissioners were convinced that a
>baseball-only facility wouldn't fly, and BEGGED Art to help them design a
>facility that would meet his needs for football, and then be downsized for
>baseball.
Thank God the County Commissioners weren't right! Jacob's field is a gem!
>At that point, Art said he wanted to stay at the Stadium. He wouldn't talk to
>them about anything having to do with NOT being at the Stadium. As a last
>resort, the county put into the plans the werewithal to change Jacobs Field
>into a multi-use facility at some later date.
>He had the opportunity to make a major change in the Gateway project, but
>figured that it would fail, and so stayed out of it.
I agree, Larry. Art was afraid of it failing; but I also think Art
wanted it to fail. If he ever wanted a new stadium (which he never
before November indicated that he wanted), he wanted it on his own terms
and by his own design.
>Larry Oberle_...@lerc.nasa.gov__(216) 433-3647
>Cleveland, you gotta be tough!
>NASA Lewis Research Center (MS 77-1) 21000 Brookpark, Cle, OH 44135
Sara
(using James' account)
K Bear 4
Balog ) writes:
>Now they say the new SIN tax (or extension as they call it) is not a
>TAX INCREASE. But think about this...
>
>If you are paying $200 a year for a car for three years (to pay it off)
>and someone comes by and says you will have to pay the same amount for
>another 3 years would you consider that a) an increase in the total
>amount payed or B) not a new tax?
From a tax payer standpoint, there would have been no advantage for voting
against the sin tax extension. Do you really think that stores/bars would
lower the price of alcohol and cigarettes after 2005 if the November sin
tax failed? Not a chance.
Immagine this future; The sin tax extension in 1995 failed. 2005 comes,
and Cleveland is entering another year of Indians baseball, and Cavs
basketball. The sin tax of 1990 has just expired. The next day, you go
to your local convenient store, hoping that your pack of cigarettes has
dropped in cost from $2.20 to $2.12. To your surprisement, the price is
the same. You ask the manager why the price hasn't gone down even though
the sin tax has expired. They tell you that the price is fair market
value, and their mark-up price is consistent with their other products.
You reluctantly pay for your pack of smokes, and think back to 1995. If
you only knew that the prices would not come down, even if the '95 sin tax
failed, you could have made sure that you'd still have football to talk
about in July, if you only voted "YES".
You're argument doesn't hold water. YES or NO, the price would not go
down. I'm sorry you can't afford a few cents more to support your habit.
David Hoffman- new address, same content
Kevin Davis
>Why do I have to pay extra for booze and cigs just to support your
>"football" habit? If you want the stadium then you should pay extra,
>not those that don't want it.
It is called a vote. The people of Cleveland voted on it. Hmmmm,
don't remember the same thing happening in Baltimore....
Mark D Morris
>>In article <4df9fl$h...@cloner2.ix.netcom.com> George Balog wrote:
>>>While Cleveland was busy worrying about
>>>getting a stadium for a losing Baseball team and moving the
>basketball
>>>team out of a perfectly good coliseum, the Browns felt left out and
>>>decided to go to greener pastures. You snooze, you lose Cleveland.
>>
>> Once again, Mr. Balog is misinformed/ignorant/filled with
>>disinformation/or a moron, you pick the appropriate word. Mr. Balog,
>can
>>you read? C a n y o u r e a d? For the last time, but probably
>not,
>>Uncle Artie did NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT
>want
>>any part of Gateway. What part of that didn't you understand? I'd be
>>happy to send you a .wav file if you can't read.
>> Why don't YOU go to greener pastures. Leave while you still
>think
>>you have your dignity.
>>NO TEAM... NO PEACE... NO MERCY
>>
>I know he wanted no part of GATEWAY but that still doesn't mean they
>had to build a new arena at Gateway. You ignored my comment about the
>coliseum. What was wrong with the Coliseum. It is easily accessible.
>It is in great condition. It is centrally located. So why did they
>have to move the Cavs downtown?
The Colisseum, Mr. Misinformed, is NOT centrally located. Granted, it
is a fine facility and in very good condition. But, for the majority
of fans wanting to see a basketball game , it was not easily
accessible. Have you ever been to a game and tried to get onto and
then drive on I-275 to get home?? And there is essentially only one
major street leading to it. And you said you lived, where??
The downtown location of the Gateway Arena is more accessible by
several intersecting highways and numberous downtown streets. It
makes getting in & out very easy. Not so with the Coliseum. And
besides, more Cavs fans have to drive shorter distances to get there.
Again, not so with the Coliseum.
Your argument falls short. Try again. . . . Mr. Baltimoron
Mark Morris
K Bear 4
Balog ) writes:
>Well, if that's the way you feel then extend the tax 200 years.
Why not? It won't matter. THE PRICES WON'T COME DOWN anyway
>But, I won't vote to keep those taxes in effect. If the prices remain
>the same it won't be because I voted for it.
That is moronic. The price WILL remain the same. If you went into a
gas station, and you saw that Economy, Plus, & Premium were all the same
price, which one would you fill your tank with?
>Also, they would not have gone up if it wasn't passed in the first
>place. Remember, the the majority of Cleveland voters voted down the
>first SIN TAX.
Yes, the price would have gone up. It's called inflation. If you
can't afford a few cents extra for beer/cigarettes, then how can you
afford to use an on-line service? Now go away.
Dave Hoffman
K Bear 4
xra...@ix.netcom.com
Another double post, my my my. People who live in glass houses...
David Hnat
David Kendall
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...wake me up when you are done
posting..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
George Balog
>>study. How many fans came from NORTH of Cleveland? With the
Coliseum
>>in Richfield you had easy access and egress. It was centrally
located
>>to population centers especially now since much of the area north of
>>Akron and is being highly devloped (commercially and residentially).
>
>Once again you prove yourself wrong. By being located 30 miles south,
>Richfield lost many of the CLEVELAND Cav fans because they refused to
>drive the distance out to Richfield. And by the way - Cleveland is
>the population center for a team named the CLEVELAND Cavs - not Akron
>or Erie, PA. And the Cav support from these areas never lived up to
>expectations. Secondly. When were you last at a Cavs game at the
>Colisseum?? Instant access & egress, my eye! Try driving on I-275
>North after a game. In fact, try even getting out of the damn parking
>lot and onto I-275 (or any other throughfare after a game) ! The new
>Gateway complex has far better access & egress with high volume
>parallel streets like Euclid, Carnegie & Chester. Have you been to
>Gateway, yet? Oh, I forgot, you're from Baltimore and don't know a
>thing about Cleveland or its street/highway structure.
>
>You're avoiding the issue of WHERE in Ohio you live. Speak up,
>Georgie!
>
>Have a bad day. Now get out of this newsgroup.
>
>Mark Morris
>
You must be getting your directions mixed up with Blossom Music Center.
Study the demographics and you'd be surprised.
Larry Oberle
gba...@ix.netcom.com(George Balog ) writes:
>You must be getting your directions mixed up with Blossom Music Center.
Blossom and the Coliseum are very close together, at least when viewed from
downtown Cleveland. From my house in Euclid, I'd take I-271 S to Rte 8 for
Blossom, and then follow Rte 8 South for a good long time. For the Coliseum,
I'd stay on I-271S to Richfield. Both are relatively close to the Turnpike
(I-80) The Coliseum is farther west.
>Study the demographics and you'd be surprised.
You're going to have to explain this one, George. My dictionary says that
demographics comes from the root demography, which is: "The scientific study
of population statistics relating to births, deaths, diseases, etc."
So what does that have to do with Mark's alleged confusion between Blossom and
the Coliseum?