I guess we now know why...
CrackerDog
With Shea, do you figure the Bears hire a QB coach? I'm going to guess they
will because Grossman is so young but I wouldn't be surprised if they
didn't. Regardless, Shea should be well equipped to pick his own QB's coach
and it's best that he not be saddled with any remnant of the Shoop era.
--
┊俩k犬兄g
Pioneer
point that he is going to do anything without a great running back and a
great defense. Not that he doesn't have the talent to possibly be an average
NFL QB, but he will never take the Bears to a Super Bowl on his shoulders. I
really hope the Bears look elsewhere (how about trading Grossman and this
year's #1 pick for the pick that could get Ben Roethlisberger--a true
physical talent), but Angelo picked Grossman when he could have had Boller
or Leftwich. Thus, I think Shea might be stuck with some bad clay.
I think I saw Bruce Smith (yes, Bruce Smith) sack Grossman when Bruce was
laying on his back. The pick of Grossman will probably be the downfall of
Angelo unless he really compensates with some other selections or FA pick
ups.
Ruxpin
"CrackerDog" <not_again@oh_no.com> wrote in message
news:EsmcnbmvJs_...@speakeasy.net...
GOMAN
shown signs of stardom in less then a half a year at QB in the NFL. Give it
a chance for piss sakes.......
GMAN
"Pioneer" <pion...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:QKLPb.85341$6y6.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Bryan Schwerer
wrote:
There where reports (Suntimes I think) that said don't overestimate
Grossman's relationship with Olson. Grossman's relationship with
Chandler was far more important.
Steve
"Bryan Schwerer" <m...@here.com> wrote in message
news:400fc7d2....@news.randori.com...
I have no trouble believing that. I have thought for a while that
Chandler could make a decent QB coach.
Muskrat McHenry
"Pioneer" <pion...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:QKLPb.85341$6y6.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
the
> point that he is going to do anything without a great running back and a
> great defense. Not that he doesn't have the talent to possibly be an
average
> NFL QB, but he will never take the Bears to a Super Bowl on his shoulders.
I
> really hope the Bears look elsewhere (how about trading Grossman and this
> year's #1 pick for the pick that could get Ben Roethlisberger--a true
> physical talent), but Angelo picked Grossman when he could have had Boller
> or Leftwich. Thus, I think Shea might be stuck with some bad clay.
>
You're full of shit. Grossman has a very quick release, is accurate as hell
and has a strong arm. I watched him play at Florida for his entire college
career. He came damn near close to becoming the first sophomore to ever win
the Heisman. His strengths are reading defenses and has no problem audibling
on every play if required. Lastly, he's a leader. His teams BELIEVE in him.
If we put a decent OL to give him a little time, a fast RB that can catch
and then this new RAM/KC offense...he could become the best QB we've had in
decades. He grasped Spurrier's system rather quickly and just flourished
with it in his second year; but is now going on his third new system in
three years. Wait until he gets settled in with some stability and
comprehends the theory in this new system Shea is going to bring. I see LOTS
of 300+ yards passing games for us in the future.
--
Muskrat McHenry,
Die Hard Bear Fan Since '65
Sashank Varma
<QKLPb.85341$6y6.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Pioneer" <pion...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> The problem here is Grossman. The guy is just not physically talented to the
> point that he is going to do anything without a great running back and a
> great defense.
Not physically talented? Well, you're right, he's
no two-sport star like Akili Smith or Chad Hutchinson.
Maybe he'll only be as good as other limited QBs
such as Brady and Montana. That would be a shame.
Pioneer
two fair games in which he did not make too many mistakes. That is fine, but
it is hardly going to carry the Bears to the Super Bowl without a great
running back and a great defense.
I said he could be an average NFL talent at best based upon his physical
skills. Name 16 starting QBs in the NFL that have less physical skills than
Grossman. I will start you off by eliminating the obvious: Vick-more
physical skills, McNair-more, Favre-more, McNabb-more, Manning-more,
Culpepper-more, Bledsoe-more, Leftwich-more.
The list will go on and on. Would you rather try and win with a good game
manager (which is what Rex will be at best) or a superior physical talent
like Big Ben Roethlisberger that has the size, arm strength, and the ability
to scramble? I wish Rex was the answer, but I really doubt he has the
physical abilities to be more than an average NFL QB.
Ruxpin
"GOMAN" <geo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:d7OPb.18840$i4.1...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Pioneer
probably right about average to below average. As far as him just about
winning the Heisman, big deal. The guy that actually won the Heisman this
year will never play a down in the NFL. I also watched his entire college
career. Just because he was good in the Florida system does not mean he will
be a great NFL QB. The great NFL QBs are generally bigger guys with more arm
strength than Grossman will ever have. Do you honestly think that Grossman
has the physical skills of John Elway or Brett Favre?
Ruxpin
Pioneer
that there will ever be another like him. Brady has an exceptional defense
and coach. He also probably has more physical skills than Grossman. I would
rather go with a QB that has better physical talent than a guy that will
always need a great running back and a great defense to win.
Ruxpin
"Sashank Varma" <no...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote in message
news:none-DB3E9B.1...@news.vanderbilt.edu...
Big10
"Muskrat McHenry" <mus...@nodaforeal.com> wrote in message news:cESPb.19477
> Lastly, he's a leader. His teams BELIEVE in him.
One of the traits of a leader and respectability amongst your teammates in
the Physical sport of Professional Football is your ability to play through
Pain. There is no one in the NFL after 16 weeks that is not aching and
sore.
Rex had ligament damage in his middle finger in the Chiefs game which
resulted in him sitting out. Meanwhile Brett Favre has started close to 200
games and had multiple fractures in his right thumb this past season.
Donovan McNabb two seasons ago finished a game with broken bones in his
ankle.
You ever hold a Football? Which do you think is more important in your
ability to grip a football and throw it accurately? The Thumb or your mid
finger? Answer is obvious, at least for those who have actually thrown a
football.
Rex had the whole offseason to recover.
Back in the late 80's Jim McMahon lost respect amongst his team, especially
Dan Hampton because he felt he could have started some of the key Playoff
game losses post SuperBowl run.
Remember, with all the long line of pass happy dominant schools,
Florida/Florida State...There have not been many who have produced at the
NFL level. Chris Weinke, Charlie Ward, Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerffel all
put up huge numbers in college but have yet to pan out in the NFL level
and/or not even in the league anymore. Hell, some of these clowns even had
respectable one or two games in the NFL, like Rex has.
Jury is still out on Rex...at least now, no one can use the John Shoop
excuse.
Muskrat McHenry
"Big10" <g...@blue.com> wrote in message
news:WxVPb.123461$I06.964646@attbi_s01...
>
> One of the traits of a leader and respectability amongst your teammates in
> the Physical sport of Professional Football is your ability to play
through
> Pain. There is no one in the NFL after 16 weeks that is not aching and
> sore.
>
> Rex had ligament damage in his middle finger in the Chiefs game which
> resulted in him sitting out. Meanwhile Brett Favre has started close to
200
> games and had multiple fractures in his right thumb this past season.
> Donovan McNabb two seasons ago finished a game with broken bones in his
> ankle.
...and both those teams were fighting for a playoff spot. Grossman sitting
out in a meaningless game because of a ruptured ligament is no comparison.
>
> Remember, with all the long line of pass happy dominant schools,
> Florida/Florida State...There have not been many who have produced at the
> NFL level. Chris Weinke, Charlie Ward, Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerffel all
> put up huge numbers in college but have yet to pan out in the NFL level
> and/or not even in the league anymore. Hell, some of these clowns even
had
> respectable one or two games in the NFL, like Rex has.
>
> Jury is still out on Rex...at least now, no one can use the John Shoop
> excuse.
Agreed. Let's see how he does under the new system without Shoop.
Sashank Varma
wrote:
> Rex had ligament damage in his middle finger in the Chiefs game which
> resulted in him sitting out. Meanwhile Brett Favre has started close to 200
> games and had multiple fractures in his right thumb this past season.
> Donovan McNabb two seasons ago finished a game with broken bones in his
> ankle.
Favre, McNabb, and McNair are special cases. You can't
compare Grossman in his third start to these guys --
only one of whom has even won a Super Bowl.
Anyway, perhaps the coaching staff held him out because
the team was getting clobbered and there was no reason
to risk further injury in a meaningless game?
> Remember, with all the long line of pass happy dominant schools,
> Florida/Florida State...There have not been many who have produced at the
> NFL level. Chris Weinke, Charlie Ward, Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerffel all
> put up huge numbers in college but have yet to pan out in the NFL level
> and/or not even in the league anymore. Hell, some of these clowns even had
> respectable one or two games in the NFL, like Rex has.
None of the aforementioned QBs was graded by the scouts as
a first rounder. Ward went straight to the NBA. Of these
guys and other losers like PT Willis, only Weinke and
Grossman had promising rookie campaigns.
> Jury is still out on Rex...
Of course. Some are optimistic because he was a
first round pick whose teammates speak highly of his
abilities and who played well for a rookie. You're
pessimistic...why? Because he played football in
Florida? (He grew up in the midwest.) Because he
missed on game his rookie year due to injury? (So
did Walter Payton.)
Big10
> As far as him just about winning the Heisman, big deal.
Agree. Let's go even further and list the Heisman trophy Winners and their
impact in the NFL...Far and away more busts....
2003 Jason White Oklahoma 18 12-1-0 Quarterback
2002 Carson Palmer Southern California 3 10-2-0 Quarterback
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska 7 11-2-0 Quarterback
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State 16 11-2-0 Quarterback
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin 33 10-2-0 Tailback
1998 Ricky Williams Texas 34 9-3-0 Tailback
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan 2 12-0-0 Cornerback
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida 7 11-1-0 Quarterback
1995 Eddie George Ohio State 27 11-2-0 Running Back
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado 19 11-1-0 Running Back
1993 Charlie Ward Florida State 17 11-1-0 Quarterback
1992 Gino Torretta Miami 13 11-1-0 Quarterback
1991 Desmond Howard Michigan 21 10-2-0 Wide Receiver
1990 Ty Detmer Brigham Young 14 10-3-0 Quarterback
1989 Andre Ware Houston 11 9-2-0 Quarterback
1988 Barry Sanders Oklahoma State 21 10-2-0 Running Back
1987 Tim Brown Notre Dame 81 8-4-0 Wide Receiver
1986 Vinny Testaverde Miami 14 11-1-0 Quarterback
1985 Bo Jackson Auburn 34 8-4-0 Running Back
1984 Doug Flutie Boston College 22 10-2-0 Quarterback
1983 Mike Rozier Nebraska 30 12-1-0 Running Back
1982 Herschel Walker Georgia 34 11-1-0 Running Back
1981 Marcus Allen Southern California 33 9-3-00 Running Back
1980 George Rogers South Carolina 38 8-4-0 Running Back
1979 Charles White Southern California 12 11-0-1 Running Back
1978 Billy Sims Oklahoma 20 11-1-0 Running Back
1977 Earl Campbell Texas 20 11-1-0 Running Back
1976 Tony Dorsett Pittsburgh 33 12-0-0 Running Back
1975 Archie Griffin Ohio State 45 11-1-0 Running Back
1974 Archie Griffin Ohio State 45 11-2-0 Running Back
1973 John Cappelletti Penn State 22 12-0-0 Running Back
1972 Johnny Rodgers Nebraska 20 9-2-1 Wide Receiver
1971 Pat Sullivan Auburn 7 9-2-0 Quarterback
1970 Jim Plunkett Stanford 16 9-3-0 Quarterback
1969 Steve Owens Oklahoma 36 6-4-0 Halfback
1968 O.J. Simpson Southern California 32 9-1-1 Halfback
1967 Gary Beban UCLA 16 7-2-1 Quarterback
1966 Steve Spurrier Florida 11 9-2-0 Quarterback
1965 Mike Garrett Southern California 20 7-2-1 Halfback
1964 John Huarte Notre Dame 7 9-1-0 Quarterback
1963 Roger Staubach Navy 12 9-2-0 Quarterback
1962 Terry Baker Oregon State 11 9-2-0 Quarterback
1961 Ernie Davis Syracuse 44 8-3-0 Halfback
1960 Joe Bellino Navy 27 9-2-0 Halfback
1959 Billy Cannon LSU 20 9-2-0 Halfback
1958 Peter Dawkins Army 24 8-0-1 Halfback
1957 John David Crow Texas A&M 44 8-3-0 Halfback
1956 Paul Hornung Notre Dame 5 2-8-0 Quarterback
1955 Howard Cassady Ohio State 40 8-2-0 Halfback
1954 Alan Ameche Wisconsin 35 7-2-0 Fullback
1953 John Lattner Notre Dame 14 9-0-1 Halfback
1952 Billy Vessels Oklahoma 35 8-1-1 Halfback
1951 Dick Kazmaier Princeton 42 9-0-0 Halfback
1950 Vic Janowicz Ohio State 31 6-3-0 Halfback
1949 Leon Hart Notre Dame 82 10-0-0 End
1948 Doak Walker Southern Methodist 37 9-1-1 Halfback
1947 John Lujack
Notre Dame 32 9-0-0 Quarterback
1946 Glenn Davis
Army 41 9-0-1 Halfback
1945 Felix Blanchard
Army 35 9-0-0 Fullback
1944 Les Horvath Ohio State 22 9-0-0 Quarter/Halfback
1943 Angelo Bertelli
Notre Dame 48 9-1-0 Quarterback
1942 Frank Sinkwich
Georgia 21 11-1-0 Halfback
1941 Bruce Smith
Minnesota 54 8-0-0 Halfback
1940 Tom Harmon
Michigan 98 7-1-0 Halfback
1939 Nile Kinnick
Iowa 24 6-1-0 Halfback
1938 Davey O'Brien
Texas Christian 8 11-0-0 Quarterback
1937 Clint Frank
Yale 14 6-1-1 Halfback
1936 Larry Kelley Yale 19 7-1-0 End
1935 Jay Berwanger Chicago 99 4-4-0 Halfback
Big10
> You can't compare Grossman in his third start to these guys -- only one of
whom has even won a Super Bowl.
Exactly. Remember the Quote I replied to.
> Lastly, he's a leader. His teams BELIEVE in him.
It's three frikkin games. He hasn't proved anything nor to his team
> Anyway, perhaps the coaching staff held him out because
> the team was getting clobbered and there was no reason
> to risk further injury in a meaningless game?
Perhaps but at the time of his injury the Bears were down by only two TD's.
It was 14-0 at halftime.
> Ward went straight to the NBA.
Ward had no choice but to goto the NBA due the fact no NFL team wanted him.
He settled for a late 26th pick in the first round of the NBA draft. Here
is a guy who was coming off the Heismann. His agent told the NFL teams that
Ward was going to the NBA if he was not a 1st round pick. NFL basically
said, Good Riddance !, Buh Bye !!
Tom Shannon
I saw at least one article this morning (Tribune) that stated that
Shea would, indeed, hire a QB coach so that he could concentrate on
the overall scheme and team performance.
Tom S.
Sashank Varma
wrote:
> > Lastly, he's a leader. His teams BELIEVE in him.
>
> It's three frikkin games. He hasn't proved anything nor to his team
I didn't write this. I wrote:
> Some are optimistic because he was a
> first round pick whose teammates speak highly of his
> abilities and who played well for a rookie.
It's one season. They seen him practice and they've
seen him play and they seem to like and respect him.
That's all you can ask for at this stage of his
career, which means it gets chalked up as a positive.
It's not an unknown quantity (e.g., Carson Palmer)
and it's not a negative (e.g., Cade McKnown).
Perhaps we're just arguing about semantics. We could
evaluate Grossman four ways at the moment:
(1) He's a wasted draft pick, a Cade McKnown or Akili
Smith or Andre Ware or Ryan Leaf or Heath Shuler or...
(2) He's a future star like...Dan Marino. Has any
QB since played above above average ball in his rookie
season?
(3) He's an unknown quantity, a Carson Palmer or a
Drew Henson.
(4) He's a promising player who's by no means a
sure thing.
You seem to be saying that we have to choose between
(1) and (2), that the evidence and history are against
(2), and therefore it must be (1).
I think the correct choice is (4).
GDW
played 10 years in the NBA. Get off of your couch!!! The guy was/is a
great athlete and a great person. What the hell are you talking about. He
lead FSU to the national championship and has all of the leadership
qualities of Favre and Montana. Not the same QB skill but a better athlete
and an equal leader. You my friend are wrong.
GDW
based on emotion - not fact.
lost highway
something. Can't remember the name and I've reloaded operating systems so
many times I no longer have them on my blocked senders list. Seems to me
he/she used to to three names. Anyway, the thing is, this person had the
same negative things to say about cade mcnown. Granted they were accurate to
a point, but I agree with GOMAN, give the guy (Grossman) a chance. An
offensive line worth its weight in pickle juice would probably help matters.
Certainly couldnt hurt.
"GOMAN" <geo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:d7OPb.18840$i4.1...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Big10
hehehe.
"GDW" <gdwh...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:BC35CAD0.54CE2%gdwh...@charter.net...
> Ward was a first or second round caliber qb ....
According to his agent he was, or at least they thought....We all know how
that ended up, huh?
> and then played 10 years in the NBA.
Yes he played 10 years in the NBA, but so has Brad Sellers. This thread is
not about his NBA status. People have this strange notion to this day that
Charlie Ward dissed the NFL and had no thoughts of going into the draft. In
fact he did want to go in the NFL. His agent told all NFL teams that
listened that he would not be participating in the draft less he was a 1st
round pick. Now whether or not that was a bluff who knows. But fact of the
matter is CHARLIE WARD WAS NOT TAKEN IN THE NFL DRAFT AT ALL. Some teams
gamble a late pick on some guy who is a duo sport athlete like Drew Henson,
Bo Jackson, or Chad Hutchinson and willing to risk that late 7th round pick
away....But the fact remains, WARD WAS UNDRAFTED. NO NFL TEAM WAS WILLING
TO EVEN GAMBLE A LATE ROUND PICK ON HIM.
>Big10 has a history of responses based on emotion - not fact.
Yep I agree. The fact that Charlie Ward was undrafted by the NFL was purely
emotional on my part.. *LMFAO* !!
Why don't you post some facts up Gary?, heh
GDW
counting) in the NBA and by all accounts was the best QB Florida State ever
produced. He could and would have played in the NFL. A star - probably not
but I suggest he would have been a starter somewhere. He has to be better
than Rodney Peete, Jim Miller, etc. He was smart and he was a leader.
Kind of the opposite of you.
Benghis
>But the fact remains, WARD WAS UNDRAFTED. NO >NFL TEAM WAS WILLING
> TO EVEN GAMBLE A LATE ROUND PICK ON HIM.
Ward wasn't drafted because he said he would not sign. It was a money
decision. He figured the only way to equal what he would make in the NBA
was to be a 1st round pick. So he said take me in the 1st or don't take me
at all.
If there is a 0.0% chance of signing the player you draft, it's not a
gamble, it's a wasted pick. Had he left the door open, he would have been
drafted in the NFL.
Big10
"Benghis" <B...@jamin.net> wrote in message
news:M7-dnRvRBY_...@comcast.com...
>Ward wasn't drafted because he said he would not sign. It was a money
>decision. He figured the only way to equal what he would make in the NBA
>was to be a 1st round pick.
Benny,
The NBA team salary cap in 1992 was 14 million. Charlie Ward signed with
the Knicks for 26th overall pick money. It wasn't much Benny. Nothing a
NFL team could have easily outbid on for his services if they truly thought
he had outstanding athletic ability like some of the two sport stars, Bo
Jackson, Drew Henson, Deion Sanders...
And then you factor in that he played a position of QB. Something that many
teams are looking to fill holes at. If there was a team that truly wanted
Charlie Ward, and it was strictly Money reasons.. you don't think a NFL team
would have bid for his services? At least talk to his agent after the draft
and match or exceed the 26th overall contract he was due to sign with the
Knicks? Remember the NBA salary cap then was 14 million. Charlie Ward was
not even a starter with the Knicks and was the 26th overall pick.
Fact of the matter is nothing happened.
Just because Charlie Ward goes to the NBA and gets drafted does not
guarantee him a roster spot. He still needs to try out and make the team.
There was many opportunities for the NFL if they truly were interested in
Charlie to make him an offer before, during and after the draft.
Sugarcoat it and make up all sorts of scenarios all you like...Nothing
happened.
Did you learn something today, Benny? hehe
Big10
> Here is a fact. Charlie Ward won the Heisman.
So did Gino Terrata
> He could and would have played in the NFL.
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Coulda shoulda woulda woulda shoulda coulda
Benny
> Did you learn something today, Benny? hehe
Yes, but not from you. Charlie Ward wasn't drafted because he wasn't
worth the money it would take to get him away from basketball, period. If
you think he wouldn't have been drafted had basketball been out of the
picture, you're cracked. Nobody wanted to get in a bidding war for a
mid-round pick.
Joe Varghese
Here's the link to the article. I think all of us here in Chicago was
so disgusted with Shoop that Olsen looked like a friggin' genius. In
all honestly, he's just a very good QB coach who can be replaced,
especially by an Offensive Coordinator who knows what it takes to be
an excellent QB Coach.
"Shea would like to hire a quarterbacks coach to focus on Grossman's
mechanics so he can bring clarity to his vision for the Bears'
offense. He also didn't rule out making suggestions to Angelo for
personnel around the league who may fit the system once he gets a
better grasp of the personnel in the locker room"
CrackerDog
>
> ...and both those teams were fighting for a playoff spot. Grossman sitting
> out in a meaningless game because of a ruptured ligament is no comparison.
>
Rex was pulled out by the trainers. He wanted to return to the game. Hey
Big0, what's your next straw man in this discussion?
--
┊俩k犬兄g
Sashank Varma
wrote:
> Yes he played 10 years in the NBA, but so has Brad Sellers.
Sellers played in 6 NBA seasons (1986-1993).
"You know search engines on the Web?"
"I don't use the Web."
"Yeah, but you are aware that there is an invention called
the Web, and on this invention they have search engines, right?"
Pioneer
and Rex. Both lack the physical talent to be better than average NFL QBs.
Rex is probably better at getting along with other people and can throw more
accurately. Cade was a complete disaster: a small QB with no arm strength
that could not throw accurately. How any scout thought he could play in the
NFL is truly amazing. Rex will probably be better than Cade but by how much?
Ruxpin
"lost highway" <lo...@hiways.org> wrote in message
news:1uZPb.7232$6o4....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
Big10
> In article <ZYZPb.102944$sv6.454183@attbi_s52>, "Big10" <g...@blue.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes he played 10 years in the NBA, but so has Brad Sellers.
>
> Sellers played in 6 NBA seasons (1986-1993).
Is that 7 years?, heh. Wow, I was pretty friggin close for just guessing.
I had to think of a Bull scrub that played during the Jordan days.
Everyone who followed the Bulls back then realized what a scrub Brad Sellers
was. But he remained in the league for 7 years riding the pine.
btw, another scrub. Am sure Bull fans during the Jordan days remember him,
Will Perdue played in the NBA for 13 years. I don't recall anyone using the
term of even "Average" when Will Perdue's name is mentioned. Most everyone
thought of him as a scrub and was happy the Bulls were somehow able to rid
this guy in the trade for Rodman.
Will Perdue=13years in the league. Using Gary Dee Whalen's logic, that
means he is an ALL PRO caliber player, *LMAO*
Big10
"Benny" <B...@jamin.net> wrote in message
news:8d6dnZh-Sv3...@comcast.com...
>
> Nobody wanted to get in a bidding war for a mid-round pick.
And how exactly did the NFL know Charlie Ward was going to be a mid round
pick in the NBA draft?, DUHHHHH!!, dumbass
Life Coach Steve
> That person was not me, but I really can see many similarities between
Cade
> and Rex. Both lack the physical talent to be better than average NFL QBs.
> Rex is probably better at getting along with other people and can throw
more
> accurately. Cade was a complete disaster: a small QB with no arm strength
> that could not throw accurately. How any scout thought he could play in
the
> NFL is truly amazing. Rex will probably be better than Cade but by how
much?
>
> Ruxpin
>
I am confused why you argue that Grossman has only average arm strength,
when all of scouting I've ever read is that he has tremendous arm strength,
has great touch on the long ball, and several Bears receivers reported last
season that Grossman may throw the "best ball" they've ever caught.
Is he a scrambler? No... though he should great sense in the pocket last
year, either throwing the ball away, or eluding the rush long enough to hit
his receiver. I think the ability to have a QB be able to run is highly
over-rated. Ask Atlanta if they would rather have Vick run less, and
instead play in more games. My guess is they would tell you -- of course.
Though I don't think Vick would make a very good pocket passer. His
movement is what creates his receivers holes in the defense.
The bottom-line is that we really don't know what Grossman will be like.
Will he be Favre or Montana, or the next whoever? Who knows. Both
quarterbacks were incredible, but were also products of the offenses they
ran, and were only as good as the receivers around them. How this new
offense is installed and run will make at least some of the difference in
how Grossman does. I like how he talks, I like his work ethic so far, and I
like that his teammates rally around him. Those are great starters for a
young man just starting his pro career. The rest will unfold in time.
My two cents.
Life Coach
Tom Shannon
> That person was not me, but I really can see many similarities between Cade
> and Rex. Both lack the physical talent to be better than average NFL QBs.
> Rex is probably better at getting along with other people and can throw more
> accurately. Cade was a complete disaster: a small QB with no arm strength
> that could not throw accurately. How any scout thought he could play in the
> NFL is truly amazing. Rex will probably be better than Cade but by how much?
I'd say he'll be considerably better. I think the dude he's at least
an average NFL starter in the making and that's being pretty
conservative.
Its true that he's only an inch taller than McNown but McNown took a
good extra 2 inches off of his effective height by throwing
side-armed, resulting in allot of batted balls. Grossman demonstrated
adequately to me that he has reasonably good vision through the
passing lanes and he doesn't seem to have had the batted ball problem.
Grossman's got better arm strength than McNown, who wasn't exactly
weak armed.
Above all this, Grossman seems considerably smarter, more mature,
better adjusted, and better coached (both by Olson last year and in
college). He's got allot more going for him than McNown did.
Tom S.
Tom Shannon
> I think all of us here in Chicago was
> so disgusted with Shoop that Olsen looked like a friggin' genius.
Thank heavens Shoop wasn't responsible for developing Grossman. You
can thank Angelo for that. Grossman specifically said recently that
Shoop never talked to him and that Olson did all the work with him.
Shoop spent all his time with Stewart. This was obviously a fall out
of the Angelo-Jauron dynamic. Jauron/Shoop didn't want a QB coach
because they wanted the QB to have a direct line to Shoop with no
interference from the QB coach. Its now obvious that Angelo worked
out a deal where Olson would be primarily responsible for developing
the then unknown draft pick but would leave the starter alone.
Tom S.
'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
-- Malaclypse the Younger
Rick Grigutis
the receivers and o line appreciate this as evidenced by their obvious
support of grossman even in losing efforts. we get all these guys on the
same page who knows what could happen. i see him as a real catalyst to
bring about the offensive synergy we haven't seen since...........
"Tom Shannon" <tsha...@rush.edu> wrote in message
news:93ade769.04012...@posting.google.com...
Thomas R. Shannon
"Rick Grigutis" <r.gri...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:9gDQb.140493$I06.1296542@attbi_s01...
> the thing i like about grossman is that he doesn't wig out under pressure.
> the receivers and o line appreciate this as evidenced by their obvious
> support of grossman even in losing efforts. we get all these guys on the
> same page who knows what could happen. i see him as a real catalyst to
> bring about the offensive synergy we haven't seen since...........
Getting them on the same page is the trick.
IMO what killed Gary Crowton was the inability of the WR to perform "sight
adjustments". They were never on the same page as the QB. That's why Shoop
eliminated them and, for all practical purposes, eliminated audibles. I
always thought that what was needed wasn't simplification so much as it was
just better coaching. Just getting rid of them seemed too much like
surrendering and settling for an approach that was too conservative (as
usual). Shea specifically said that sight adjustments are an important part
of his system. It will be interesting to see if the WR handle it better this
time.
DrXTz
Watching Jim's helmet as he went through his progression, and then make his
decision was impressive. They had a passing attack that day, and won even
with Boniol as their kicker.
Unfortunately, Miller got suspended and never seemed the same after (maybe
more to that andro stuff than I thought). Crowton went on, and I remember
him more for using Bobby Engram as a running back than anything else.
"Thomas R. Shannon" <tsha...@rush.REMOVEME.edu> wrote in message
news:XpGdnWxkhbQ...@comcast.com...
Life Coach Steve
"Thomas R. Shannon" <tsha...@rush.REMOVEME.edu> wrote in message
news:XpGdnWxkhbQ...@comcast.com...
>
>
> IMO what killed Gary Crowton was the inability of the WR to perform "sight
> adjustments". They were never on the same page as the QB. That's why Shoop
> eliminated them and, for all practical purposes, eliminated audibles. I
> always thought that what was needed wasn't simplification so much as it
was
> just better coaching. Just getting rid of them seemed too much like
> surrendering and settling for an approach that was too conservative (as
> usual). Shea specifically said that sight adjustments are an important
part
> of his system. It will be interesting to see if the WR handle it better
this
> time.
>
> Tom S.
>
IMO, the problem with Crowton's system (there was only one?) was that the
progressions
were so generalized pro defenders were able to spoof the receiver into
making certain sight adjustments just to have them funnel into zones they
wanted them to be in. I remember Gunther Cunningham talking about how the
passing offense was too simply formed for it to be consistently successful
in the pro ranks.
I like the fact that we are getting an OC who is going to install an offense
that is battle tested in the NFL, has been successful there, and so we won't
have to worry about having a "mad scientist" mentality about it.
Life Coach
Sashank Varma
wrote:
> "Sashank Varma" <no...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote in message
> news:none-B399FF.1...@news.vanderbilt.edu...
> > In article <ZYZPb.102944$sv6.454183@attbi_s52>, "Big10" <g...@blue.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Yes he played 10 years in the NBA, but so has Brad Sellers.
> >
> > Sellers played in 6 NBA seasons (1986-1993).
>
> Is that 7 years?, heh.
1986-1987
1987-1988
1988-1989
1989-1990
1991-1992
1992-1993
He was apparently out of the league or injured 1990-1991.
[http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SELLEBR0
]
Pioneer
"Life Coach Steve" <counsel...@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:AYednSVMMZ0...@comcast.com...
>
> "Pioneer" <pion...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:bUpQb.98575$6y6.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > That person was not me, but I really can see many similarities between
> Cade
> > and Rex. Both lack the physical talent to be better than average NFL
QBs.
> > Rex is probably better at getting along with other people and can throw
> more
> > accurately. Cade was a complete disaster: a small QB with no arm
strength
> > that could not throw accurately. How any scout thought he could play in
> the
> > NFL is truly amazing. Rex will probably be better than Cade but by how
> much?
> >
> > Ruxpin
> >
>
> I am confused why you argue that Grossman has only average arm strength,
> when all of scouting I've ever read is that he has tremendous arm
strength,
> has great touch on the long ball, and several Bears receivers reported
last
> season that Grossman may throw the "best ball" they've ever caught.
Well, I really don't think you any quality scout would describe Grossman's
arm strength as "tremendous." I measure arm strength in terms of velocity on
the ball. Do you really think that his velocity is better than Favre,
Culpepper, McNair, Vick, Manning, Bledsoe, McNabb.... The list could go on
and on, which means he does not have much arm strength when compared to
other NFL QBs. I am sure he had plenty when he was throwing to wide open
receivers in the SEC.
> Is he a scrambler? No... though he should great sense in the pocket last
> year, either throwing the ball away, or eluding the rush long enough to
hit
> his receiver. I think the ability to have a QB be able to run is highly
> over-rated.
There you go. His upside is that he might be as good as Jim Miller someday
if he learns not to make mistakes due to the fact that he is not a
"playmaker" in the NFL. His abilities are fine if the Bears get a great
running back and the defense gets plenty of turnovers. Nonetheless, Grossman
will not "carry" the Bears anywhere in the same manner that the truly
talented do.
Ruxpin
Pioneer
news:<bUpQb.98575$6y6.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> > That person was not me, but I really can see many similarities between
Cade
> > and Rex. Both lack the physical talent to be better than average NFL
QBs.
> > Rex is probably better at getting along with other people and can throw
more
> > accurately. Cade was a complete disaster: a small QB with no arm
strength
> > that could not throw accurately. How any scout thought he could play in
the
> > NFL is truly amazing. Rex will probably be better than Cade but by how
much?
>
> I'd say he'll be considerably better. I think the dude he's at least
> an average NFL starter in the making and that's being pretty
> conservative.
>
> Its true that he's only an inch taller than McNown but McNown took a
> good extra 2 inches off of his effective height by throwing
> side-armed, resulting in allot of batted balls. Grossman demonstrated
> adequately to me that he has reasonably good vision through the
> passing lanes and he doesn't seem to have had the batted ball problem.
> Grossman's got better arm strength than McNown, who wasn't exactly
> weak armed.
McNown has terrible arm strength in terms of velocity. You have to be able
to throw the out pattern in the NFL, and McNown bounced most of those passes
to the receiver.
> Above all this, Grossman seems considerably smarter, more mature,
> better adjusted, and better coached (both by Olson last year and in
> college). He's got allot more going for him than McNown did.
>
> Tom S.
I agree that Grossman might be smart enough to overcome his physical
limitations. Nonetheless, why bother spending a first round pick on such a
player? I still cannot believe Angelo passed on Leftwich and Boller for the
less physically talented player. If you look at the other three QBs taken in
the first round, Grossman has the weakest arm by far.
Ruxpin
Life Coach Steve
All I can say is that in his three games (well the first two) he was able to
deliver the ball, in stride,
to receivers running out patterns. The first Bears quarterback in a while
to be able to do that. He was able to complete passes to WRs running posts
and slants between defenders and complete those passes. Grossman also hit
Booker on a fly route a little over 50 yards down field. The first two
speak of enough velocity to play at the pro level, and the last is an arm
strength indicator.
By all measurements Boller had a not-so-great first year in the NFL.
Leftwich looked solid, but I think there were enough question marks about
long-term health to question whether he will be a good bet down the road.
Time will be the only indicator whether Grossman will be a great quarterback
or only serviceable. We know his teammates think very highly of him, which
speaks at least to his initial ability to lead his team. From all reports
he is also dedicated to his study, and his girlfriend sounds like she is
understanding and supportive to that process (so... no distractions at
home). The question will be, can Shea design the offense around Grossman's
abilities.
I for one am looking forward to finding out.
Life Coach
Sashank Varma
"Life Coach Steve" <counsel...@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:
> Leftwich looked solid, but I think there were enough question marks about
> long-term health to question whether he will be a good bet down the road.
And although I thin Leftwich is the real deal, it must be
said that he evidenced poorer decision making in his rookie
season when surrounded by superior offensive personnel than
Rex.
Sashank Varma
<NmKRb.125732$6y6.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Pioneer" <pion...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I agree that Grossman might be smart enough to overcome his physical
> limitations. Nonetheless, why bother spending a first round pick on such a
> player? I still cannot believe Angelo passed on Leftwich and Boller for the
> less physically talented player. If you look at the other three QBs taken in
> the first round, Grossman has the weakest arm by far.
Grossman was picked after these guys (and after Carson Palmer too).
No one was passed over. If you want to make this argument, convince
us that Chris Simms or some other guy with protypical height was
the better pick.
Sure, Leftwich would have been nice, but I'm happier with Rex
than Kyle "one good year in college/outplayed by Anthony Wright/
cost a first AND second round draft pick in 2004" Boller.
Tom Shannon
> I still cannot believe Angelo passed on Leftwich and Boller for the
> less physically talented player. If you look at the other three QBs taken in
> the first round, Grossman has the weakest arm by far.
In fairness to Angelo, he didn't pass on those guys. He didn't have
an opportunity to take them.
I know. I know. He traded down. But put yourself in his position.
Is it really fair to saddle Jauron with a developmental first round
pick in a year where he's working to save his job? Angelo had to
compromise. He had to atleast try to give Jauron immediate help
without jepardizing the organization's future. Getting 2 first round
picks and using one for a QB and one for immediate help (Haynes) was
the only answer. Even though Haynes wasn't a world beater this year,
at least Angelo gave it a shot.
Really, I think Grossman will be OK anyway. I think you're
underestimating his arm strength.
Tom S.
Rick Grigutis
up there. i don't care about ATHLETIC scrambling as much as MENTAL [pocket
presence] and from what little i saw this kid has it.news:qhKRb.125692$6y6.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...