hand me down team
michael thorpe
the browns will be ours ,,,,while you try to compete with a hand me down
team,,,,,,colts no browns no ravens get a grip you got suckered,,,,,,,in
99 while no one here will forget the move,,,,we are all better off with
out modell,,,,for we are officially a bird dawg,,,,,,ps, your orioles
are already no match
InigoM
>Subject: hand me down team
>From: ST...@webtv.net (michael thorpe)
>Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 20:32 EST
>Message-id: <6btjf6$ckq$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>
Hmm, let's see: No grammar, no punctuation, barely coherent thoughts. Sadly,
this is actually an improvement over most of the posts we get here from
Cleveland trollers.
GOOSE
In article <6btjf6$ckq$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>, ST...@webtv.net
(michael thorpe) wrote:
> the browns will be ours ,,,,while you try to compete with a hand me down
> team,,,,,,colts no browns no ravens get a grip you got suckered,,,,,,,in
> 99 while no one here will forget the move,,,,we are all better off with
> out modell,,,,for we are officially a bird dawg,,,,,,ps, your orioles
> are already no match
Hehehe....at least the O's won the WORLD SERIES. HAHAHAHA!!!
How did it feel last year when Baltimore not only knocked out the INDIANS
from the Playoffs but also got the RAVENS....Oooo Cleveland hates
Baltimore.
How do you think Baltimoreans felt when they filmed in Baltimore and
Camden Yards for MAJOR LEAGUE 2 and passed it off as CLEVELAND. EEK!!!!!
Clevelanders...quit your whining. You got off better than BALTIMORE ever
did when the COLTS got stolen, and unlike BALTIMORE....You lost your team
knowing it could happen very easily since Modell had been asking for a new
Stadium Years before. BALTIMORE had no idea.
We'll see you in 99 since the RAVENS will meet the expansion
BROWNS....guess who will win?
Glenn Channell
goos...@earthlink.net (GOOSE) writes:
>In article <6btjf6$ckq$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>, ST...@webtv.net
>(michael thorpe) wrote:
>> the browns will be ours ,,,,while you try to compete with a hand me down
>> team,,,,,,colts no browns no ravens get a grip you got suckered,,,,,,,in
>> 99 while no one here will forget the move,,,,we are all better off with
>> out modell,,,,for we are officially a bird dawg,,,,,,ps, your orioles
>> are already no match
>Hehehe....at least the O's won the WORLD SERIES. HAHAHAHA!!!
Newsflash--So have the Indians.
>How did it feel last year when Baltimore not only knocked out the INDIANS
>from the Playoffs but also got the RAVENS....Oooo Cleveland hates
>Baltimore.
How did it feel when the Indians knocked the O's out last year?
How does it feel knowing that Cleveland will get an expansion team while
Baltimore got snubbed? Even with Baltimore knocking the Indians out of the
playoffs, remind me...How many championships (of any sort, Division, League,
World) have the Orioles won since 1983?
>How do you think Baltimoreans felt when they filmed in Baltimore and
>Camden Yards for MAJOR LEAGUE 2 and passed it off as CLEVELAND. EEK!!!!!
About the same as when they filmed RUTH in Cleveland Stadium and
passed it off as Yankee Stadium. No one really cares.
>Clevelanders...quit your whining. You got off better than BALTIMORE ever
>did when the COLTS got stolen, and unlike BALTIMORE....You lost your team
>knowing it could happen very easily since Modell had been asking for a new
>Stadium Years before. BALTIMORE had no idea.
I'm not going to rehash all the details, but BS. The fans of
Baltimore knew a move was possible AND imminent. Why else did the city
try to take the Colts away from Irsay on an emminent domain claim and
force his hand? The Baltimoreans got screwed, as did Cleveland, but
Baltimore had at least as much warning.
>We'll see you in 99 since the RAVENS will meet the expansion
>BROWNS....guess who will win?
Unless the Ravens completely botch their development (which is
possible), they should. Of course, there are two issues. The first is
that Cleveland may not even PLAY Baltimore in 1999, and the second is
that no one knows who will win. If we did, there'd be no need to play
the games...
Caseypj1
To: Glenn Channell
Re: Baltimore vs. Cleveland
Let's see -- in my lifetime, Baltimore has 6 American League pennants, 3 World
Series championships, 3 NFL championships, one Super Bowl. That compares to
Cleveland to AL pennants and one NFL championship (PLEASE correct me if I'm
wrong). And you copied our ballpark -- you'll probably copy our football
stadium. Oh yes, our basketball team (remember, we've been jilted twice) also
played in the 71 NBA finals; the Cavs might make it that far by, say, 2020.
That's just sports. We won't talk about having a nicer city, better climate, a
harbor that never caught fire, the Preakness, the world's best medical
school...Cleveland does have a better symphony, but I'll bet you've never seen
it!
Regards,
A Baltimore Native Exiled to the South
Birdman
Don't forget that Baltimore has more crime, more gangs, is considered by all
objective standards a lousy place to raise a family, your "best medical center"
has a senior officer indicted for embezzlement and is the town is despised by all
who stand for fair play, and your governor embarrassed your entire state with his
hee-haw mentality.
and leave my man Glenn alone. HE ROOLS!
Glenn Channell
case...@aol.com (Caseypj1) writes:
>To: Glenn Channell
>Re: Baltimore vs. Cleveland
>Let's see -- in my lifetime, Baltimore has 6 American League pennants, 3 World
>Series championships, 3 NFL championships, one Super Bowl. That compares to
>Cleveland to AL pennants and one NFL championship (PLEASE correct me if I'm
>wrong). And you copied our ballpark -- you'll probably copy our football
>stadium. Oh yes, our basketball team (remember, we've been jilted twice) also
>played in the 71 NBA finals; the Cavs might make it that far by, say, 2020.
Let's see. If you really want to compare, Baltimore has won
3 NFL Championships, Cleveland 5. Before joining the NFL, both Cleveland
and Baltimore had teams in the AAFC. Cleveland won 4 championships,
Baltimore 0. In baseball, Cleveland has won 2 National championships,
Baltimore 3. In basketball, Baltimore has 1 (1948), Cleveland 0.
What's your point?
>That's just sports. We won't talk about having a nicer city, better climate, a
>harbor that never caught fire, the Preakness, the world's best medical
>school...Cleveland does have a better symphony, but I'll bet you've never seen
>it!
Cleveland's harbor never caught fire. A report came out last year
that ranked Cleveland as BETTER than Baltimore in environmental concerns
(i.e. Cleveland is cleaner). The world's best medical school is a very
subjective assessment. Johns Hopkins is an excellent school, but so
what? Climate is a very subjective assessment as well. I happen to like
snow, and this year, which city got buried? You'd be 100% wrong if you
think I haven't seen the Cleveland Symphony. Since I no longer live
there, it has been a few years...what's your point?
You started this by your original post. I simply responded.
Personally, I think both cities have a lot to offer, and judging which
one is "better" is entirely subjective. You have the Preakness, we
have the R&R HOF. The Preakness is nice if you like horse racing, but
if you prefer music, Cleveland comes out ahead. Cleveland had some
pollution problems (it was the river), but that's ancient history, and
pretending that Baltimore does not and has not had pollution problems
is ridiculous.
InigoM
>>Hehehe....at least the O's won the WORLD SERIES. HAHAHAHA!!!
>
> Newsflash--So have the Indians.
True, but at least I was alive the last time my team won the Series....how
'bout you?
>How does it feel knowing that Cleveland will get an expansion team while
>Baltimore got snubbed?
You know something no one else does? The odds on expansion are getting better,
but you're still a long way from knowing anything for certain.
> I'm not going to rehash all the details, but BS. The fans of
>Baltimore knew a move was possible AND imminent. Why else did the city
>try to take the Colts away from Irsay on an emminent domain claim and
>force his hand? The Baltimoreans got screwed, as did Cleveland, but
>Baltimore had at least as much warning.
True.
Glenn, you generally make reasonable posts. I find it hard to believe you'd
want to defend Mr. Thorpe's unprovoked (and incoherent) attacks in our
newsgroup. Do you really want to be associated with Cleveland's version of
Bernie?
Glenn Channell
ini...@aol.com (InigoM) writes:
>True.
No. I wasn't defending anything he wrote, but rather responding
in kind to the post which attacked Cleveland rather than the original
post and/or poster.
Caseypj1
By the way, spare me bragging about the Indians. From the early 50s until 3-4
years ago, they were THE standard of mediocrity in Major League Baseball. A
trivia question, true until a few years ago -- what's the only non-expansion
team never to win a Division Championship? The Cleveland Indians!
It's fascinating the someone bragged on this board about Major League II,
about the Indians, being filmed in Camden Yards. First, it was filmed there
because the "Jake" is a pale imitation Camden Yards. Second, don't forget that
the Indians were the subject of the Major League movies precisely because THEY
STUNK FOR SO LONG!
Now, let's get back to football. Spare me as well any high and mighty talk
about how virtuous Cleveland is because they'll get an expansion team instead
of an existing one. Baltimore tried and got turned down -- repeatedly. The
NFL screwed up putting teams in Jacksonville and Carolina. I live in
Jacksonville -- they struggled to sell out a few times last year with an 11-5
team! The NFL will end up indirectly giving expansion teams to Baltimore and
St. Louis (as they should have) by replacing the Cleveland and LA teams that
moved.
Finally, I travel a lot for business throughout the US. There are a number of
nice cities out there beside my hometown Baltimore. Cleveland isn't one of
them. Even in Ohio, Columbus or Cincinnati are both more attractive places.
Don H
Caseypj1 <case...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980215190...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> By the way, spare me bragging about the Indians. From the early 50s
until 3-4
> years ago, they were THE standard of mediocrity in Major League Baseball.
A
> trivia question, true until a few years ago -- what's the only
non-expansion
> team never to win a Division Championship? The Cleveland Indians!
The main reason for this is the same as why the Cincinnati Reds have been
in a downward spiral since winning the WS in 1990-- poor ownership. For
years and years, the Indians were owned by misers who didn't want to spend
any money on the team, especially in the area most people knowledgeable
about baseball consider the single most important one--the farm system.
One owner wanted to do away with the farm system entirely, as a
money-saving measure. Fortunately, MLB wouldn't let him. Once they
finally had an owner who cared about the team, and had the money behind him
(THANK YOU MR. JACOBS!!!) to do something good, the team began to improve
from the bottom up.
> It's fascinating the someone bragged on this board about Major League
II,
> about the Indians, being filmed in Camden Yards. First, it was filmed
there
> because the "Jake" is a pale imitation Camden Yards. Second, don't forget
that
> the Indians were the subject of the Major League movies precisely because
THEY
> STUNK FOR SO LONG!
Since both Jacobs Field and Camden Yards were designed by the same
architechtural firm (HOK), there are bound to be some similarities. With
the Jake being a few years newer, there are improvements in it over Camden
Yards, including a few that have been retrofitted into Camden. Which is
better is purely subjective, but listening to or reading national media
types that have no affinity for one team over another, the majority (but
not in unanimity) think the Jake is nicer. This past season, when the
Indians played the Reds in Cleveland, I listened to the game on the Reds'
network. Joe Nunnally, a Reds announcer who thoroughly detests anything
and everything about the American League, and especially Cleveland, said
that he thought that the finest baseball facility was Coors Field--until he
saw the Jake. It changed his mind. Hearing him say that was quite a
shock. Of course, he hadn't been to B-more, so he had no opinion on
Camden.
> Now, let's get back to football. Spare me as well any high and mighty
talk
> about how virtuous Cleveland is because they'll get an expansion team
instead
> of an existing one. Baltimore tried and got turned down -- repeatedly.
The New York Times has reported that the person with the strongest
objection to expansion for B-more was--TA-DA!!--none other than one fArt
Modell. Even more so than J.K. Cooke! They quoted him as saying that
"Baltimore doesn't deserve the NFL." (a paraphrase on my part) Curious
how a few hundred million dollars changed his mind.
The
> NFL screwed up putting teams in Jacksonville and Carolina. I live in
> Jacksonville -- they struggled to sell out a few times last year with an
11-5
> team! The NFL will end up indirectly giving expansion teams to Baltimore
and
> St. Louis (as they should have) by replacing the Cleveland and LA teams
that
> moved.
No argument here. If you add Houston to Cleveland & L.A. without the NFL,
three of the top 12 TV markets are without NFL teams. BTW, the cRavens
have had higher local TV ratings in Cleveland than in B-more.
> Finally, I travel a lot for business throughout the US. There are a
number of
> nice cities out there beside my hometown Baltimore. Cleveland isn't one
of
> them. Even in Ohio, Columbus or Cincinnati are both more attractive
places.
I live in Columbus, and I might dispute that. It might be true in part,
but mainly because Columbus is much newer. I moved here in '74, and the
city (or more appropriately, the metro area) has more than doubled in that
time. Cleveland is a much older city, with older buildings. But Columbus
has a way of tearing down old & architecturally interesting buildings and
turning them into parking lots or bland strip shopping centers. One
instance was a really neat building that was a brewery built in the 1890's
that was structurally sound; it's now just an empty lot. About 15 or 20
years ago, the gorgeous, classic railroad station was torn down to build
an ugly shopping center that has a hard time keeping tenants, because
nobody goes there to shop. The list could go on and on.
As far as things to do and places to go, Cleveland has both Columbus and
Cincinnati beat, hands down. No contest.
Don
InigoM
>The New York Times has reported that the person with the strongest
>objection to expansion for B-more was--TA-DA!!--none other than one fArt
>Modell. Even more so than J.K. Cooke! They quoted him as saying that
>"Baltimore doesn't deserve the NFL." (a paraphrase on my part) Curious
>how a few hundred million dollars changed his mind.
I've heard this allegation repeated several times (usually from Clevelanders)
but never seen any proof. If you can substantiate this, please let me know
(I'd love to find out for sure wether it's true or not).
InigoM
>Subject: Re: hand me down team
>From: Birdman <Rav...@bankrupt.com>
>Date: Fri, Feb 13, 1998 10:19 EST
>Message-id: <34E46438...@bankrupt.com>
>
>Don't forget that Baltimore has more crime, more gangs, is considered by all
>objective standards a lousy place to raise a family,
Tell me "Birdman", what objective standards would those be?
InigoM
> No. I wasn't defending anything he wrote, but rather responding
>in kind to the post which attacked Cleveland rather than the original
>post and/or poster.
>
>
Sorry, but if you go back and read Mr. Thorpe's original posts, you'll see that
they were completely unprovoked (and extremely unoriginal) attacks on
Baltimore as well as the Ravens. So, while I'll grant you Gooses' responding
in kind to those type of posts is probably counter-productive, it's perfectly
understandable.
Just think about it this way: If someone attacking Cleveland in response to an
attack on Baltimore is enough to prompt you to respond, Imagine how Goose felt,
having his city attacked for no good reason IN HIS OWN NEWSGROUP!
BSchae9281
Yeah.............Cleveland is a great place to live. Isn't Cleveland the
punchline to about a thousand jokes ? Let me ask you something
..............does everyone in Cleveland look like that fat puke Drew Carey ?
(besides the women...........Ialready know they do).
Birdman wrote:>
>
>Don't forget that Baltimore has more crime, more gangs, is considered by all
Glenn Channell
ini...@aol.com (InigoM) writes:
Ok. Here goes. Jack Kent Cooke was NOT part of the committee that
decided on the expansion teams. Tagliabue DID read a letter for Cooke.
Art Modell WAS a member of that committee. Here are a couple of relevant
passages from _Glory for Sale_ which support the contention that Art was
one of the most adamant opponents to Baltimore expansion.
"Among the most devout Sun Belt apostles on the expansion committee
was Art Modell, who spoke often in favor of valuable new markets and
*against* old NFL cities like Baltimore and St. Louis. Returning to
those cities was simply 'not in the best interest of the NFL,' said
Modell, according to fellow committee member and Eagles owner Norman
Braman."
(Glory for Sale, p. 182)
"Belgrad and Schaefer prepared for an intense lobbying campaign...
Lerner called to say he had spoken with Modell, who advised against such
a public campaign...Leave everything to him, said the Browns owner,
and he would line up Baltimore's votes."
(Glory for Sale, p. 188-9)
This sounds like Art was FOR expansion to Baltimore, but:
"Jacksonville, said Modell, was 'the cleanest' option...Modell
adamantly defended the commissioner's recommendation of Jacksonville.
In fact, Modell used Lerner's bid as evidence that he was serious: He
told the other committee members that his misgivings about Baltimore were
serious enough and his support for Jacksonville strong enough that he
would vote against his good friend."
(Glory for Sale, p. 193)
"The committee ultimately voted 10-2 in favor of Jacksonville,
with Braman and Tisch voting for Baltimore."
(Glory for Sale, p. 193)
So despite Modell's "promise" to line up the B'more vote, he voted and
argued AGAINST them.
"...Modell grabbed his coat and headed for the hotel exit. Baltimore
Sun sports columnist John Steadman followed him into a cab for a ride to
the airport, where he saw Modell get on Lerner's plane...
When Steadman reported this to Belgrad and Schaefer, the two men
were shocked and humiliated...
'We expected Lerner to be at the airport, and Art Modell to lead
the campaign for us,' Belgrad said...
'It was as if the rug had been pulled out from under us,' Belgrad
recalled...
The Cleveland Browns voted for Jacksonville."
(Glory for Sale, p. 194)
"After moving to Baltimore, Modell explained his expansion vote by
saying he thought Jacksonville waas 'another Green Bay' in the making.
And he felt it unfair to support one former NFL city but not the other.
Better to let both cities get teams from those interested in moving--
which, at the time, he said, did not include the Browns.
But Modell never shared that thinking with the Maryland delegation."
(Glory for Sale, p. 195).
As far as Modell's buddy Lerner is concerned:
"There was no evidence that the investor did anything on behalf of
the city, other than lull it into a false sense of complacency that
prevented the recruitment of another, more motivated owner."
(p. 195)
So, you have Art Modell's friend Al Lerner coming in and offerring
to be the new owner of the B'more expansion franchise. He becomes the
leading candidate, and when the city tries to push their candidacy, Lerner
and Modell tell them not to, and that Modell will arrange the Baltimore
vote. While this is being told to the Marylanders (?), however, Modell
was arguing AGAINST Baltimore in the closed meetings. A few years later,
Lerner and Modell conspire to move the Browns to Baltimore.
This paints an ugly picture. Interpret it as you want, but one
possibility is that Modell deliberately sabotaged Baltimore's expansion
bid in order to move their himself. Even if you don't accept this
scenario, it seems clear that he was one of the most vehement opponents
to Baltimore's expansion bid, which seems strange since he said HE'D
line up their votes.
Just as a final note, I'd like to point out that Glory for Sale
was written by Jon Morgan, who lives in Baltimore and writes for the
Sun. Morgan has absolutely no pro-Cleveland bias...
JBAR...@kentvm.kent.edu
In article <goosedude-120...@1cust248.tnt5.tco2.da.uu.net>
goos...@earthlink.net (GOOSE) writes:
>Clevelanders...quit your whining. You got off better than BALTIMORE ever
>did when the COLTS got stolen,
but I've seen the BaltimorEAns do so. There is not a single scintilla of
doubt in my mind anymore that in 10 years we'll know that Baltimore got
hosed far worse than Cleveland did, and if I were in your shoes, I'd be
envious as hell. You get our castoffs and another Irsay and Irsay Jr to
give you mediocre teams for 35 years. We're on the cusp of expansion
with a gazilionaire like Lerner writing checks to compete w/ any owner
in the NFL and run a hands off show, like Dick Jacobs. If he does that,
all is forgiven by this boy - tho I respect those who can't. You get
David and Ozzie on the job training. Next month as the expansion train
rolls on it will be announced that we get either George Young or John McVay,
GM's from multiple SB winners, as interim GM. You get the whole
nation not hearing nor caring about your side of the story, we get all
the sympothy from Mike Lupica, Bob Costas, Mike Ditka, Bob Trumpy, Chris
Berman, Mort and every single other talking head in the business. You
get garish colors and the Scarlet Letter of pro sports for at least our
generation, while Indy perpetrated this whole thing and gets the blue,
white and Colts, and we get the Browns. You build your own stadium w/
your money, the NFL gives us $ 48 million. You get 3 crappy non
playoff rebuilding years, we didn't have to put up w/ the PR bullcrap of
Modell crying poor and then blowing it on yet another 34 year old washed up
hack the second he has two pieces of jack to rub together.
No, this boy isn't whining. I'm ROTF. But not at you. You Baltimore
fans are the one who've been hosed repeatedly. I'm laughing at the
bastards like Moag, Schmoke and Gloatdenning, but not the average Joe
like you. In fact, I think you're just about the most pathetic
bastards going in pro sports. We can take second place again (we're used to
it....).
>and unlike BALTIMORE....You lost your team
>knowing it could happen very easily since Modell had been asking for a new
>Stadium Years before. BALTIMORE had no idea.
Irsay did give many warnings, only to contradict himself. IOW, just like Modell
did. Only Irsay's were public. Bottom line, their both scum. If we get
expansion, we get to laugh at you. If we get Bidwell, we get to eat crow
with you. So far it looks like we're laughing.
>We'll see you in 99 since the RAVENS will meet the expansion
>BROWNS....guess who will win?
BTW - Your city is great. I'm past all that. I love your little Italy and
Fell's Point is about as close to The Flats as it gets. I don't need to
whine and bash Charm City because I'm getting every damn thing I want, and
unlike a lot of Clevelanders I actually live here and know how great my
city is too. Maybe you can come up in 99.
Please pitch Benitez against the Tribe often this year.
Later,
JB
ravenman
Glenn Channell wrote:
You know this really does get old. Very old! Said it before and i'll say it
again. Art was not the driving force behind who received which team. Yes he was on
the expansion committe and had a say. But Art, at that time, was a league man. He
was know for going along with what the commissioner wanted.
And guess what the commissioner wanted?
Gordon F Barr Jr.
there won't be a new team in cleveland,someone eleses team maybe
look at the nfl ,they aren't ready for new teams and even if they where
it won't be like the jags/pathers getting everything handed to them more
like seattle/tampa thing,but if you our any kind of a football fan you
would
know this already and a team moving, who is ready to move ,the cards
don't think so! So the NFL is going to give you your team in 99,we did
every
thing they ask of us and we got of them new teams didn't we!
Erick Church
You, sir, know exactly what's going on. More people like you, JB, need
to post messages and keep the NFL where it belongs--with the TRUE fans.
Good luck in '99 Cleveland. Go Browns!
Go Colts!
www.inergy.com/EricksPlace
John
you are a moron...Indy? True fans?? Couldn't even sell out opening day
after two playoff appearances.....ROFLMAO!!
Erick Church <Eric...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<6dct16$c9g$1...@newsd-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...