T kukoc
sup-man
energy. He can't even make a layup.
Europa2846
>
>I think kukoc is over the hill. The last couple games I see him play like no
>energy. He can't even make a layup.
>
>
giving him big minutes he hasn't earned and keeping him on the bench when
warranted. Unless Kukoc has an amazing turnaround and steps up in a huge way in
the playoffs, the Bucks would be wise to not re-sign him in the off-season.
They're better off spending their mid-level on another free agent. The one guy
who I'm wondering about is Adonal Foyle. The Bucks need to keep adding more
pieces to the frontcourt and he may be one of the better, less-expensive free
agents available in the summer.
sup-man
might be useless.
"Europa2846" <europ...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040327150638...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Doc
Uzytkownik sup-man <sup-ma...@yahoo.com> w wiadomosci do grup
dyskusyjnych napisal:106c9l4...@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey how about adding Dampier from GS. But I guess they need score so, he
> might be useless.
Dampier useless? I don't think so. 12.4 ppg 11.8 rpg this season.
But he earns around 8 mln/year and probably will be asking for more than
mid-lev :-).
Foyle is an interesting pick, but don't you guys think Bucks need a backup
SG for Redd?
Doc
Europa2846
argument that given his continued improvement and upside, he should be a
starting SG at some point -- if not right now. Unless the Bucks move Redd (and
given his salary and upside, they'd be fools to unless it was one helluva an
offer), Mason's best chance to be a starter in Milwaukee will probably be at
the SF spot, which will only happen if the Bucks can move Van Horn in the
off-season. Given his lofty player option that kicks in after next season, that
is something Harris must definitely try to do this summer or at some point next
season in my opinon.
Foyle's a guy that jumped out at me when I was going through the list of
potential free agents. I don't see him being a major impact player, but for the
mid-level the Bucks almost certainly won't get someone like that. But they did
well using the mid-level last summer to get Skinner, Jones and Strickland and
hopefully Harris will have a keen eye for talent again. If nothing else, Foyle
would provide a shot-blocking anchor in the middle and allow Skinner to shift
to PF, where I think he's better suited to play.
Foyle only made $4.4M this year and he hasn't done much because of injuries,
so I don't think he'll break the bank for any team this summer. I have no idea
what the Warriors think of him; maybe they are determined to keep him. But if
not, he's a guy that appears on the surface anyway to be an affordable option
the Bucks might be able to explore.
Doc
great
> argument that given his continued improvement and upside, he should be a
> starting SG at some point -- if not right now. Unless the Bucks move Redd
(and
First: I was thinking more SF than SG, but you're right - he's only 6-5. In
that case after TT departure Bucks will have a hole in SF spot (I assume
that they won't resign Kukoc - in fact I was surprise that he wasn't traded
to, lets say Phoenix for draft picks?).
Second: Don't you think considering Van Horn's health, Mason will probably
be very busy backing up Keith?
> given his salary and upside, they'd be fools to unless it was one helluva
an
> offer), Mason's best chance to be a starter in Milwaukee will probably be
at
> the SF spot, which will only happen if the Bucks can move Van Horn in the
> off-season. Given his lofty player option that kicks in after next season,
that
> is something Harris must definitely try to do this summer or at some point
next
> season in my opinon.
Maybe he should leave him unprotected? OTOH I don't see Bernie B. taking
him.
> Foyle's a guy that jumped out at me when I was going through the list
of
> potential free agents. I don't see him being a major impact player, but
for the
> mid-level the Bucks almost certainly won't get someone like that. But they
did
> well using the mid-level last summer to get Skinner, Jones and Strickland
and
> hopefully Harris will have a keen eye for talent again. If nothing else,
Foyle
> would provide a shot-blocking anchor in the middle and allow Skinner to
shift
> to PF, where I think he's better suited to play.
...as a Smith's backup or in starting 5?
And Bucks should definitely resign Gadzuric.
Doc
Europa2846
>> Nope. I think Mason is a great backup SG. In fact, you could make a
>great
>> argument that given his continued improvement and upside, he should be a
>> starting SG at some point -- if not right now. Unless the Bucks move Redd
>(and
>
>First: I was thinking more SF than SG, but you're right - he's only 6-5. In
>that case after TT departure Bucks will have a hole in SF spot
>
>
for Van Horn. In terms of talent, they are much better off now at that position
then they were before the trade in my opinion.
>
>
>(I assume
>that they won't resign Kukoc - in fact I was surprise that he wasn't traded
>to, lets say Phoenix for draft picks?).
>
>
step his game up and would be a valuable guy in the playoff run due to his
experience and offensive skills. But his game is clearly on the decline.
There's no way of knowing if the Bucks got any kind of offer for Kukoc, but if
they did and passed that would definitely be something in hindsight that looks
like a huge mistake.
>
>
>Second: Don't you think considering Van Horn's health, Mason will probably
>be very busy backing up Keith?
>
>
my guess is he'll be the SF on the court with Van Horn shifting to PF. The
three guys who must be on the floor when the game is on the line in my opinion
are Redd, Mason and Van Horn unless one or more of them is just having a putrid
night.
>
>
>> given his salary and upside, they'd be fools to unless it was one helluva
>an
>> offer), Mason's best chance to be a starter in Milwaukee will probably be
>at
>> the SF spot, which will only happen if the Bucks can move Van Horn in the
>> off-season. Given his lofty player option that kicks in after next season,
>that
>> is something Harris must definitely try to do this summer or at some point
>next
>> season in my opinon.
>
>Maybe he should leave him unprotected? OTOH I don't see Bernie B. taking
>him.
>
>
Bobcats take him and that salary. Van Horn is a good player, but he'd look a
whole lot better for about $5-$8M than he does at $14M and $15M. That salary is
just ridiculous and Harris must find a way to get rid of it if he can.
>
>
>> Foyle's a guy that jumped out at me when I was going through the list
>of
>> potential free agents. I don't see him being a major impact player, but
>for the
>> mid-level the Bucks almost certainly won't get someone like that. But they
>did
>> well using the mid-level last summer to get Skinner, Jones and Strickland
>and
>> hopefully Harris will have a keen eye for talent again. If nothing else,
>Foyle
>> would provide a shot-blocking anchor in the middle and allow Skinner to
>shift
>> to PF, where I think he's better suited to play.
>
>...as a Smith's backup or in starting 5?
>And Bucks should definitely resign Gadzuric.
>
>
in better condition because this is the second year in a row his game has
pretty much disappeared down the stretch. That leads me to think his
conditioning needs to be improved.
As far as Skinner, I think he's a PF who has to play center here because the
Bucks have no better options. Whether or not he starts there or Smith does
isn't a big concern of mine since I think both players can play well there. I
actually think if the Bucks can find a competent center to go with Gadzuric, a
combo of Smith and Skinner at PF will be a big plus for the team next season.
Doc
Thomas
> for Van Horn. In terms of talent, they are much better off now at that
position
> then they were before the trade in my opinion.
I'm not sure about that, but... Ok. I haven't seen KVH in Bucks uniform yet.
> I was a little surprised too, but I think Harris and Porter were hoping
he'd
> step his game up and would be a valuable guy in the playoff run due to his
> experience and offensive skills. But his game is clearly on the decline.
I'm afraid keeping him was a mistake. IMHO they won't pass first round in
'04 playoffs.
> There's no way of knowing if the Bucks got any kind of offer for Kukoc,
but if
> they did and passed that would definitely be something in hindsight that
looks
> like a huge mistake.
I guess they also have a phone #'s for other GM's :-)
> He'll split time backing up both Redd and Van Horn and then in crunch
time,
> my guess is he'll be the SF on the court with Van Horn shifting to PF. The
> three guys who must be on the floor when the game is on the line in my
opinion
> are Redd, Mason and Van Horn unless one or more of them is just having a
putrid
> night.
Sounds ok, but reminded me a little bit of big three few years ago :-).
I'd prefer one leader.
> I think he will be left unprotected, but I can't see any way in hell
the
> Bobcats take him and that salary. Van Horn is a good player, but he'd look
a
> whole lot better for about $5-$8M than he does at $14M and $15M. That
salary is
> just ridiculous and Harris must find a way to get rid of it if he can.
Agree.
> As far as Skinner, I think he's a PF who has to play center here
because the
> Bucks have no better options. Whether or not he starts there or Smith does
> isn't a big concern of mine since I think both players can play well
there. I
> actually think if the Bucks can find a competent center to go with
Gadzuric, a
> combo of Smith and Skinner at PF will be a big plus for the team next
season.
And Bucks can always bring back last year's second round draft choice Szymon
Szewczyk from Europe (which I hope they will, because we were born in the
same city :-)
Doc
Europa2846
>> Actually, the Bucks upgraded significantly at the SF spot by trading
>Thomas
>> for Van Horn. In terms of talent, they are much better off now at that
>position
>> then they were before the trade in my opinion.
>
>I'm not sure about that, but... Ok. I haven't seen KVH in Bucks uniform yet.
>
>
great player by any means, but neither is Thomas. But in terms of scoring and
rebounding, he's the superior player. Neither is much of a defensive player.
>
>
>> I was a little surprised too, but I think Harris and Porter were hoping
>he'd
>> step his game up and would be a valuable guy in the playoff run due to his
>> experience and offensive skills. But his game is clearly on the decline.
>
>I'm afraid keeping him was a mistake. IMHO they won't pass first round in
>'04 playoffs.
>
>
obviously weren't going to cut him. But if they don't go past the first round,
I'd say it will have little to do with Kukoc. Their backline defense has
suffered greatly since the break and the team misses Ford badly.
>
>
>> There's no way of knowing if the Bucks got any kind of offer for Kukoc,
>but if
>> they did and passed that would definitely be something in hindsight that
>looks
>> like a huge mistake.
>
>I guess they also have a phone #'s for other GM's :-)
>
>
offering and is willing to offer something of substance in return. It makes no
sense to just give Kukoc away. If nobody was willing to part with anything
decent, the Bucks were wise to keep him.
>
>
>> He'll split time backing up both Redd and Van Horn and then in crunch
>time,
>> my guess is he'll be the SF on the court with Van Horn shifting to PF. The
>> three guys who must be on the floor when the game is on the line in my
>opinion
>> are Redd, Mason and Van Horn unless one or more of them is just having a
>putrid
>> night.
>
>Sounds ok, but reminded me a little bit of big three few years ago :-).
>I'd prefer one leader.
>
>
Plus, Mason is a terrific defensive player and Redd is solid. Van Horn isn't a
good defender, but it's not for lack of trying, it's simply lack of skills.
Allen, Robinson and Cassell were all pitiful defensive players and to compound
things they made no attempt to defend.
As far as one leader, that would be nice but not a necessity. In crunch
time, Redd is clearly becoming the go-to player with Van Horn also a quality
option given his offensive skills (and strong FT shooting ability). Mason's
game is improving nicely and the aspect of his game that is superior is his
ability to draw fouls. Few defenders can stay with him one-on-one given his
explosiveness to the hoop and overall athletic ability. If he continues to
improve his perimeter game and FT shooting, he will become a sensational
player.
>
>
>> As far as Skinner, I think he's a PF who has to play center here
>because the
>> Bucks have no better options. Whether or not he starts there or Smith does
>> isn't a big concern of mine since I think both players can play well
>there. I
>> actually think if the Bucks can find a competent center to go with
>Gadzuric, a
>> combo of Smith and Skinner at PF will be a big plus for the team next
>season.
>
>And Bucks can always bring back last year's second round draft choice Szymon
>Szewczyk from Europe (which I hope they will, because we were born in the
>same city :-)
>
>Doc
>
>
what happens with him in the future, but for now I'm not expecting much.
GUY@ufo.com SCI-FI GUY
>>From: "Doc" gera...@poczta.onet.pl
>>
>>> Nope. I think Mason is a great backup SG. In fact, you could make a
>>great
>>> argument that given his continued improvement and upside, he should be a
>>> starting SG at some point -- if not right now. Unless the Bucks move Redd
>>(and
>>
>>First: I was thinking more SF than SG, but you're right - he's only 6-5. In
>>that case after TT departure Bucks will have a hole in SF spot
>>
>>
> Actually, the Bucks upgraded significantly at the SF spot by trading Thomas
>for Van Horn. In terms of talent, they are much better off now at that position
>then they were before the trade in my opinion.
>>
Best wishes! Key words ... " in my opinion"
Come playoff time you will be more disapointed in vanhorn and in your
opinion may not want him there next season. Time will tell. It always
does.
Europa2846
>On 28 Mar 2004 15:48:11 GMT, europ...@aol.com (Europa2846) wrote:
>
>>>From: "Doc" gera...@poczta.onet.pl
>>>
>>>> Nope. I think Mason is a great backup SG. In fact, you could make a
>>>great
>>>> argument that given his continued improvement and upside, he should be a
>>>> starting SG at some point -- if not right now. Unless the Bucks move Redd
>>>(and
>>>
>>>First: I was thinking more SF than SG, but you're right - he's only 6-5. In
>>>that case after TT departure Bucks will have a hole in SF spot
>>>
>>>
>> Actually, the Bucks upgraded significantly at the SF spot by trading
>Thomas
>>for Van Horn. In terms of talent, they are much better off now at that
>position
>>then they were before the trade in my opinion.
>>>
>Best wishes! Key words ... " in my opinion"
>Come playoff time you will be more disapointed in vanhorn and in your
>opinion may not want him there next season. Time will tell. It always
>does.
>
>
after next season is ridiculous and Larry Harris must move him before that
happens.
As far as the playoffs, we'll see what happens. If Van Horn doesn't play
well, he'll be criticized for it. However, it won't be any different than Tim
Thomas, who only played well in the playoffs last season in the fourth quarter
of games when the Bucks were being blown out. So it's not like Thomas will be
missed come playoff time.
And as far as Van Horn being better than Thomas, I'm hardly the only one who
shares that opinon. Quite a few NBA writers have said Van Horn is the superior
player. Hell, Isiah Thomas said he wouldn't have traded Van Horn heads up for
Thomas.
Paul Jensen
> Come playoff time you will be more disapointed in vanhorn and in your
> opinion may not want him there next season. Time will tell. It always
> does.
That may or may not be. But if we're basing this debate on past
performance, Van Horn will perform better than Tim Thomas. As I've said
before, *both* teams may have benefited from this trade. Don't know about
the Knicks, but I feel the Bucks have certainly benefited.
I'm glad the Bucks group isn't home to trolls like the Knicks group
obviously is. The good news, they'll eventually go away.
GUY@ufo.com SCI-FI GUY
I tend to disagree. Reason being this... vanhorn is always criticized
for disapearing in playoff games. Hey let's not make this a knicks vs
bucks thing. Vanhorn has been criticized in New Jersey and
Philadelphia for disapearring in games during playoffs. The Knicks
hoped that might change but saw the same things in NY. All I can say
is best wishes! Trades are trades! If they were all equal everybody
would be happy and have absolutely nothing to talk about.
>who only played well in the playoffs last season in the fourth quarter
As a Knick fan I will take that over a dissapearing act.
>of games when the Bucks were being blown out. So it's not like Thomas will be
>missed come playoff time.
> And as far as Van Horn being better than Thomas, I'm hardly the only one who
>shares that opinon. Quite a few NBA writers have said Van Horn is the superior
>player. Hell, Isiah Thomas said he wouldn't have traded Van Horn heads up for
>Thomas.
I hear ya!
Like I said when teams trade they both hope for the best situation,
sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Not for nothign but
vanhorn may turn out to be a superstar at the bucks. Tim Thomas may
just be ordinary. You know what is often forgotten? That certain guys
play better with certain players. I also agree with sport writers and
others that say TT has a world of potential. I have never really
watched him closely until he got to the knicks. Now the one thing that
really amazes me is that he has a very good ball control and
coordination for a guy being 6'10" I mean that is a big dude to be so
coordinated. But hey I am from the old school when 6'10" means stay
down low with back to basket.
Europa2846
>
>On 28 Mar 2004 20:09:34 GMT, europ...@aol.com (Europa2846) wrote:
>
>>>From: SCI-FI GUY SCI-...@ufo.com
>>>
>
>>>Come playoff time you will be more disapointed in vanhorn and in your
>>>opinion may not want him there next season. Time will tell. It always
>>>does.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't want Van Horn here next year anyway. His player option that kicks
>in
>>after next season is ridiculous and Larry Harris must move him before that
>>happens.
>> As far as the playoffs, we'll see what happens. If Van Horn doesn't play
>>well, he'll be criticized for it. However, it won't be any different than
>Tim
>>Thomas,
>I tend to disagree. Reason being this... vanhorn is always criticized
>for disapearing in playoff games. Hey let's not make this a knicks vs
>bucks thing. Vanhorn has been criticized in New Jersey and
>Philadelphia for disapearring in games during playoffs. The Knicks
>hoped that might change but saw the same things in NY. All I can say
>is best wishes! Trades are trades! If they were all equal everybody
>would be happy and have absolutely nothing to talk about.
>
>
say the Knicks saw "the same things" is very odd since he never got a chance to
play with them in the playoffs. In any event, my point is Thomas didn't exactly
step up in the playoffs either. His numbers look good at times, but for those
who watched last year's playoff series with the Nets, what they'll remember is
Thomas being nowhere to be found until a couple of huge fourth quarters in
blowouts. That is not what I call stepping up in the playoffs.
>
>>who only played well in the playoffs last season in the fourth quarter
>As a Knick fan I will take that over a dissapearing act.
>
>>of games when the Bucks were being blown out. So it's not like Thomas will
>be
>>missed come playoff time.
>> And as far as Van Horn being better than Thomas, I'm hardly the only one
>who
>>shares that opinon. Quite a few NBA writers have said Van Horn is the
>superior
>>player. Hell, Isiah Thomas said he wouldn't have traded Van Horn heads up
>for
>>Thomas.
>I hear ya!
>Like I said when teams trade they both hope for the best situation,
>sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Not for nothign but
>vanhorn may turn out to be a superstar at the bucks. Tim Thomas may
>just be ordinary. You know what is often forgotten? That certain guys
>play better with certain players. I also agree with sport writers and
>others that say TT has a world of potential. I have never really
>watched him closely until he got to the knicks. Now the one thing that
>really amazes me is that he has a very good ball control and
>coordination for a guy being 6'10" I mean that is a big dude to be so
>coordinated. But hey I am from the old school when 6'10" means stay
>down low with back to basket.
>
>
how good he could be if he just wanted it more, but I don't think he's ever
going to want it. And this isn't a Bucks thing; Larry Brown saw it in Philly
and frankly there were bad vibes about Thomas during his brief time in college
too. So this is hardly something new; this has been going on for quite some
time, which is precisely why the idea that Thomas is suddenly going to put it
all together and be a real player is likely a pipe dream. Sure anything could
happen, but with so much evidence and history working against him, I'd say the
odds are Tim Thomas is what he's going to be already and he'll never be the
great player his ability indicates he could be.
GUY@ufo.com SCI-FI GUY
Hey all you can do is hope for the best for both teams.
Tim Thomas had 26 points and 6 rebounds in his first game back from
injury. I believe he had 16 in the 4th quarter.
garyl...@gmail.com
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