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Kawakami: The Warriors and the Memphis model: A look-back to 2011, and connections for both trending franchises
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Allen
May 20, 2013, 1:25:30 PM5/20/13
to
To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
about it on Twitter). -AL
===========================================================
Talking Points
with Tim Kawakami
The Warriors and the Memphis model: A look-back to 2011, and connections
for both trending franchises
Posted by Tim Kawakami on May 19th, 2013 at 8:49 am
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2013/05/19/the-warriors-and-the-memphis-model-a-look-back-to-2011-and-connections-for-both-trending-franchises/#more-18438
Two years ago, I noted Memphis’ then stunning first-round upset of No. 1
seed San Antonio, focused on the youth and strength of the Grizzlies’
roster, and wondered if the Warriors could take those same steps
patterned on the Memphis model.
The theory: Memphis screwed up almost as much as the Warriors had over a
similar period, had a similar amount of talent run in and out of its
roster, had to take some risks to clamber up, and there were a series of
thoughtful (and not obvious) moves that guided the Grizzlies into
contention…
So, in May 2011, I thought maybe the Warriors could do some of the same
things in the new Joe Lacob/Peter Guber ownership and eventually the Bob
Myers GM (he was promoted to GM in 2012) tenure.
And two years later, the meme still holds, actually better than ever,
and the GSWs–after their own two-round playoff journey–are a
VERY interesting early-stage parallel.
Now that I look over the last two years… It’s interesting to see how
much further Memphis has pushed that modeling forward (dump inefficient
Rudy Gay, get tougher and tougher, watch Mike Conley grow) and how
closely the Warriors’ rise has tracked to that kind of model.
There are differences, of course. The biggest two:
-Memphis has kept on growing and improving and has moved into prime
contention for a Western Conference title (play San Antonio in the WCF
starting today)… and…
-The Warriors’ fan base has been and always will be larger and more
rabid than anything collected by Memphis.
But otherwise, the similarities about re-tooling and changing the
franchise story lines are even more identifiable now.
(No coincidence that Jerry West is the executive who ties these two
franchises together–he left as the Grizzlies’ main decision-maker before
all of their major moves, and he hasn’t been the GSW main decision-maker
since joining the exec board in 2011… but again, it’s not a shock there
are duplications in the way these two teams have put together a sturdier
foundation with West in close proximity.)
Let’s go back over the points I made in May 2011… and update it to the
present trend lines.
—The essential repeated words in the whole proceeding: Tougher, more
efficient, defensive-minded, willing to risk moving popular players,
big-picture moves that go beyond PR and immediate ticket-sales…. and
winning important games.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: The extremely controversial 2008 deal that sent Pau
Gasol to the Lakers, which gave Memphis Marc Gasol and money flexibility
to add Zach Randolph and give out extensions to Mike Conley, Jr., Rudy
Gay and others.
It took time–and Memphis was ripped for years for this and in immediate
hoops terms it was a boon for the Lakers, obviously. But Marc Gasol has
developed into the most well-rounded, creative center in the league.
Update: He’s still only 28 and just won Defensive Player of the Year–you
build around guys like Gasol.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? When they raised the anger of a
large segment of their fan base by trading Monta Ellis and others for
Andrew Bogut and later-year gains…
Yes, essentially the GSWs did duplicate the Memphis move.
The GSWs didn’t get the same kind of money flexibility in the deal,
however, because they acquired Richard Jefferson in the third piece of
the package (to get a No. 1 pick and dump Stephen Jackson).
But they have Bogut now and without him they don’t beat Denver in the
playoffs this year and can’t feasibly think about challenging for the
West crown next season.
Worth it. And no boos for Lacob recently.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Hired Lionel Hollins as coach in the middle of the
2008-’09 season.
Update: He’s not my favorite HC, but Hollins has been very effective in
shaping the Grizzlies’ personality–great defense, great toughness,
they’re very hard to play, they’re winning.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Yes, and more, with Joe Lacob’s
gut-call hiring of Mark Jackson before the 2011-’12 season.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Taking a big financial and locker room bet on risky
personality Zach Randolph in 2009–for Quentin Richardson!
Update: Gasol and Randolph are the most powerful front line in the NBA,
and the toughest one to counter.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Not yet. Under Lacob and Jackson,
the GSWs have pushed the value of team chemistry, and they’ve benefited
from the supportive, family, collegiate atmosphere of their locker room.
So I’m not sure whether they’re too interested in picking up edgy
personalities, even if it’s a guy with special talent. But the Wariors
have a strong locker room perhaps able to take in an iffy character, and
Jackson can be a guiding force.
It’ll probably be his Jackson’s on a case-by-case basis, and if GM Bob
Myers and his staff believe it’s worth the shot.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Guiding the development of point guard Mike Conley, Jr.
Update: Conley has kept on going: Now he’s nearly an elite-level two-way
point guard.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Yes, already has happened with
Stephen Curry, who will only get better.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Flourished when Rudy Gay–their presumed best
player–missed the 2011 playoffs, proving (to some) that high-volume
shooters/low-quality defenders aren’t as valuable as most think.
Update: This continued in a climactic way when the Grizzlies traded Gay
in the middle of this season to get out from his huge contract… and got
better, too.
That was another controversial move that was, actually, not really that
big of a loss.
(As was argued by a few at the time, me included. I think Gasol,
Randolph and especially Conley are better players when they don’t have
the ball dominated by someone like Gay. And Memphis is a MUCH better
defensive team without him.)
I think giving Tony Allen more time on the wing, and then fashioning
offense out of Jerryd Bayless or other bench players, is a big plus for
Memphis in most situations–they have Allen, Conley and Gasol as top-line
defensive players to match up with any team’s best scorers.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Again, the Ellis-Bogut deal is a
nice parallel here.
Moving Ellis freed Curry to take over, and Curry is better. That’s a
mirroring of the Grizzlies moving Gay and getting more out of Conley and
Allen because of it.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Turned into a tough defensive-minded team.
Update: Even more so now, just ask Oklahoma City and Kevin Durant.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Yes, but mostly limited to when
Bogut’s in the game.
The problem is that until his ankle issues are settled, the Warriors and
Bogut don’t know how long he can be in the game, and what level he’ll be at.
And Draymond Green is the Warriors’ closest middle-sized approximation
to Tony Allen. Maybe Brandon Rush, when he’s healthy next season, can be
another version.
experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
about it on Twitter). -AL
===========================================================
Talking Points
with Tim Kawakami
The Warriors and the Memphis model: A look-back to 2011, and connections
for both trending franchises
Posted by Tim Kawakami on May 19th, 2013 at 8:49 am
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2013/05/19/the-warriors-and-the-memphis-model-a-look-back-to-2011-and-connections-for-both-trending-franchises/#more-18438
Two years ago, I noted Memphis’ then stunning first-round upset of No. 1
seed San Antonio, focused on the youth and strength of the Grizzlies’
roster, and wondered if the Warriors could take those same steps
patterned on the Memphis model.
The theory: Memphis screwed up almost as much as the Warriors had over a
similar period, had a similar amount of talent run in and out of its
roster, had to take some risks to clamber up, and there were a series of
thoughtful (and not obvious) moves that guided the Grizzlies into
contention…
So, in May 2011, I thought maybe the Warriors could do some of the same
things in the new Joe Lacob/Peter Guber ownership and eventually the Bob
Myers GM (he was promoted to GM in 2012) tenure.
And two years later, the meme still holds, actually better than ever,
and the GSWs–after their own two-round playoff journey–are a
VERY interesting early-stage parallel.
Now that I look over the last two years… It’s interesting to see how
much further Memphis has pushed that modeling forward (dump inefficient
Rudy Gay, get tougher and tougher, watch Mike Conley grow) and how
closely the Warriors’ rise has tracked to that kind of model.
There are differences, of course. The biggest two:
-Memphis has kept on growing and improving and has moved into prime
contention for a Western Conference title (play San Antonio in the WCF
starting today)… and…
-The Warriors’ fan base has been and always will be larger and more
rabid than anything collected by Memphis.
But otherwise, the similarities about re-tooling and changing the
franchise story lines are even more identifiable now.
(No coincidence that Jerry West is the executive who ties these two
franchises together–he left as the Grizzlies’ main decision-maker before
all of their major moves, and he hasn’t been the GSW main decision-maker
since joining the exec board in 2011… but again, it’s not a shock there
are duplications in the way these two teams have put together a sturdier
foundation with West in close proximity.)
Let’s go back over the points I made in May 2011… and update it to the
present trend lines.
—The essential repeated words in the whole proceeding: Tougher, more
efficient, defensive-minded, willing to risk moving popular players,
big-picture moves that go beyond PR and immediate ticket-sales…. and
winning important games.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: The extremely controversial 2008 deal that sent Pau
Gasol to the Lakers, which gave Memphis Marc Gasol and money flexibility
to add Zach Randolph and give out extensions to Mike Conley, Jr., Rudy
Gay and others.
It took time–and Memphis was ripped for years for this and in immediate
hoops terms it was a boon for the Lakers, obviously. But Marc Gasol has
developed into the most well-rounded, creative center in the league.
Update: He’s still only 28 and just won Defensive Player of the Year–you
build around guys like Gasol.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? When they raised the anger of a
large segment of their fan base by trading Monta Ellis and others for
Andrew Bogut and later-year gains…
Yes, essentially the GSWs did duplicate the Memphis move.
The GSWs didn’t get the same kind of money flexibility in the deal,
however, because they acquired Richard Jefferson in the third piece of
the package (to get a No. 1 pick and dump Stephen Jackson).
But they have Bogut now and without him they don’t beat Denver in the
playoffs this year and can’t feasibly think about challenging for the
West crown next season.
Worth it. And no boos for Lacob recently.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Hired Lionel Hollins as coach in the middle of the
2008-’09 season.
Update: He’s not my favorite HC, but Hollins has been very effective in
shaping the Grizzlies’ personality–great defense, great toughness,
they’re very hard to play, they’re winning.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Yes, and more, with Joe Lacob’s
gut-call hiring of Mark Jackson before the 2011-’12 season.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Taking a big financial and locker room bet on risky
personality Zach Randolph in 2009–for Quentin Richardson!
Update: Gasol and Randolph are the most powerful front line in the NBA,
and the toughest one to counter.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Not yet. Under Lacob and Jackson,
the GSWs have pushed the value of team chemistry, and they’ve benefited
from the supportive, family, collegiate atmosphere of their locker room.
So I’m not sure whether they’re too interested in picking up edgy
personalities, even if it’s a guy with special talent. But the Wariors
have a strong locker room perhaps able to take in an iffy character, and
Jackson can be a guiding force.
It’ll probably be his Jackson’s on a case-by-case basis, and if GM Bob
Myers and his staff believe it’s worth the shot.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Guiding the development of point guard Mike Conley, Jr.
Update: Conley has kept on going: Now he’s nearly an elite-level two-way
point guard.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Yes, already has happened with
Stephen Curry, who will only get better.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Flourished when Rudy Gay–their presumed best
player–missed the 2011 playoffs, proving (to some) that high-volume
shooters/low-quality defenders aren’t as valuable as most think.
Update: This continued in a climactic way when the Grizzlies traded Gay
in the middle of this season to get out from his huge contract… and got
better, too.
That was another controversial move that was, actually, not really that
big of a loss.
(As was argued by a few at the time, me included. I think Gasol,
Randolph and especially Conley are better players when they don’t have
the ball dominated by someone like Gay. And Memphis is a MUCH better
defensive team without him.)
I think giving Tony Allen more time on the wing, and then fashioning
offense out of Jerryd Bayless or other bench players, is a big plus for
Memphis in most situations–they have Allen, Conley and Gasol as top-line
defensive players to match up with any team’s best scorers.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Again, the Ellis-Bogut deal is a
nice parallel here.
Moving Ellis freed Curry to take over, and Curry is better. That’s a
mirroring of the Grizzlies moving Gay and getting more out of Conley and
Allen because of it.
* MEMPHIS KEY MOVE: Turned into a tough defensive-minded team.
Update: Even more so now, just ask Oklahoma City and Kevin Durant.
-Did/can the Warriors duplicate that? Yes, but mostly limited to when
Bogut’s in the game.
The problem is that until his ankle issues are settled, the Warriors and
Bogut don’t know how long he can be in the game, and what level he’ll be at.
And Draymond Green is the Warriors’ closest middle-sized approximation
to Tony Allen. Maybe Brandon Rush, when he’s healthy next season, can be
another version.
Greg Lentz
May 21, 2013, 1:38:00 AM5/21/13
to
On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:25:30 -0700, Allen <lonewo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
>experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
>like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
>good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
>were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
>Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
>about it on Twitter). -AL
Yeah, but you know whose reputation was a lot like David Lee's before
>To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
>experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
>like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
>good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
>were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
>Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
>about it on Twitter). -AL
Memphis got good?
Zach Randolph.
Prior to joining Memphis, he was hardly thought of as a building block.
I think Lee, if paired with a defensive center to help guard his back,
gives you a lot of things offensively that help your team. The important
thing is not to make him the offensive priority of your team. Curry needs
to be the offensive priority of the team and then if the other team
overcommits to him, you get the ball to Lee and let him post, pass, or
shoot a medium jumper.
Ideally, the Warriors would get a third player that would knock Lee down a
peg in the offensive hierachy who would be as good or better than Curry.
That's the kind of firepower you need to compete for conference titles.
That player is not likely to be Thompson and probably not Barnes either,
though I feel better about Barnes after the playoff than at any time since
he was picked. He showed a lot of composure and his offensive game was
become more than just a guy who shot wide open jumpers created by
teammates.
--
Greg Lentz
Phantom Post
May 21, 2013, 12:07:04 PM5/21/13
to
Allen <lonewo...@gmail.com> wrote in news:kndm2u$rtv$1...@dont-email.me:
> To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
> experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
> like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
> good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
> were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
> Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
> about it on Twitter). -AL
>
Another part of that Memphis trade was the acquisition of Teyshaun Prince.
Not any kind of a star whatsoever but a good, solid, veteran pickup to add
to that team.
--
Pat
email: phartzATcoxDOTnet
> To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
> experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
> like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
> good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
> were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
> Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
> about it on Twitter). -AL
>
Not any kind of a star whatsoever but a good, solid, veteran pickup to add
to that team.
--
Pat
email: phartzATcoxDOTnet
Allen
May 21, 2013, 1:17:01 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/20/2013 10:38 PM, Greg Lentz wrote:
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:25:30 -0700, Allen <lonewo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
>> experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
>> like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
>> good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
>> were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
>> Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
>> about it on Twitter). -AL
>
> Yeah, but you know whose reputation was a lot like David Lee's before
> Memphis got good?
>
> Zach Randolph.
>
> Prior to joining Memphis, he was hardly thought of as a building block.
Yeah, Zach Randolph. I think the difference between Randolph and Lee is
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:25:30 -0700, Allen <lonewo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
>> experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
>> like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
>> good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
>> were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
>> Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
>> about it on Twitter). -AL
>
> Yeah, but you know whose reputation was a lot like David Lee's before
> Memphis got good?
>
> Zach Randolph.
>
> Prior to joining Memphis, he was hardly thought of as a building block.
that Randolph has the size and strength to be a defensive presence just
on size alone. Also his size makes him a formidable post player (unlike
Lee). I always wonder why Lee hasn't worked hard to become a little
bigger and a lot stronger - seems to me that would elevate his game
greatly.
> I think Lee, if paired with a defensive center to help guard his back,
> gives you a lot of things offensively that help your team. The important
> thing is not to make him the offensive priority of your team. Curry needs
> to be the offensive priority of the team and then if the other team
> overcommits to him, you get the ball to Lee and let him post, pass, or
> shoot a medium jumper.
remember Ezeli having to constantly rotate to make up for Lee's
shortcomings. It will be interesting to see how Lee and Bogut jive with
each other next year when presumably Bogut will be healthier. In any
case, I totally agree with you that Lee should get knocked down in the
offensive hierarchy.
Greg Lentz
May 22, 2013, 12:45:33 AM5/22/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 10:17:01 -0700, Allen <lonewo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 5/20/2013 10:38 PM, Greg Lentz wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:25:30 -0700, Allen <lonewo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
>>> experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
>>> like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
>>> good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
>>> were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
>>> Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
>>> about it on Twitter). -AL
>>
>> Yeah, but you know whose reputation was a lot like David Lee's before
>> Memphis got good?
>>
>> Zach Randolph.
>>
>> Prior to joining Memphis, he was hardly thought of as a building block.
>
>Yeah, Zach Randolph. I think the difference between Randolph and Lee is
>that Randolph has the size and strength to be a defensive presence just
>on size alone.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58423/zach-randolphs-bad-game-dont-forget-the-d
>On 5/20/2013 10:38 PM, Greg Lentz wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:25:30 -0700, Allen <lonewo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> To me, the parallel to Memphis' experience with Rudy Gay is the Warriors
>>> experience with David Lee. They seemed to get better without him (just
>>> like Memphis did without Gay), and I think the lesson is that they need
>>> good defense at that position more than they need good offense - they
>>> were able to make up for his offense. I'm surprised TK didn't mention
>>> Lee, as he also isn't a big Lee fan (and always takes a lot of shit
>>> about it on Twitter). -AL
>>
>> Yeah, but you know whose reputation was a lot like David Lee's before
>> Memphis got good?
>>
>> Zach Randolph.
>>
>> Prior to joining Memphis, he was hardly thought of as a building block.
>
>Yeah, Zach Randolph. I think the difference between Randolph and Lee is
>that Randolph has the size and strength to be a defensive presence just
>on size alone.
>Also his size makes him a formidable post player (unlike
>Lee).
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3531
David Lee
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3956
For such a formidable post player, why does he shoot 5 percentage points
lower than Lee?
>I always wonder why Lee hasn't worked hard to become a little
>bigger and a lot stronger - seems to me that would elevate his game
>greatly.
midrange to draw slower defenders out of the key.
>> I think Lee, if paired with a defensive center to help guard his back,
>> gives you a lot of things offensively that help your team. The important
>> thing is not to make him the offensive priority of your team. Curry needs
>> to be the offensive priority of the team and then if the other team
>> overcommits to him, you get the ball to Lee and let him post, pass, or
>> shoot a medium jumper.
>
>Wasn't Lee paired with a defensive center when Ezeli was starting?
when he played against the Spurs. He has a lot of room for growth in his
game. But for a late first round pick, he showed some reason to hope that
he could be a role playing starter someday.
--
Greg Lentz
poldy
May 22, 2013, 7:52:31 PM5/22/13
to
In article <XnsA1C75D4EB727pa...@78.46.70.116>,
Prince can't have a cheap contract. Maybe his deal is expiring.
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