Ichiro average?

NLR011

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Jan 15, 2003, 10:58:23 AM1/15/03

to

Those who think Ichiro is no better than just an average player please speak up
now. I want to write your names down and see what you have to say at the all
star break when he's hitting .330+ w/ 110 hits, 25 steals and the league's lead
in Intentional bases on ball. He had a less than Ichiro-esque 2nd half last
year but lets not forget that his first half was his best half season so far.
Ichiro is the REAL DEAL folks. If you can't see that by now then you either
don't watch many Mariner games or you simply don't know the game of baseball.

Please speak up now.

Mike Wahler

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Jan 15, 2003, 1:20:42 PM1/15/03

to

NLR011 <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030115105823...@mb-da.aol.com...

> Those who think Ichiro is no better than just an average player please
speak up
> now. I want to write your names down and see what you have to say at the
all
> star break when he's hitting .330+ w/ 110 hits, 25 steals and the league's
lead
> in Intentional bases on ball. He had a less than Ichiro-esque 2nd half
last
> year but lets not forget that his first half was his best half season so
far.
> Ichiro is the REAL DEAL folks.

You forgot to add that Ichiro is the epitome of
a good sportsman. And so far he's the *only* player
I've seen who's never berated an umpire. A man
of character, important in my book.

-Mike

Hsberman

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Jan 15, 2003, 4:22:25 PM1/15/03

to

Well, if he is a real star, given his assets are BA and speed, he needs to have
an OBA of at least .400 and a SB percentage of at least 80%.

He has not done both of those in either of his first two years.

Henry

Emmett

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Jan 15, 2003, 6:07:39 PM1/15/03

to

> And so far he's the *only* player
> I've seen who's never berated an umpire.

Olerud

Michael Cox

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Jan 15, 2003, 6:13:04 PM1/15/03

to

In article <b0489l$r0n$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>,
"Mike Wahler" <mkwa...@mkwahler.net> wrote:

> And so far he's the *only* player
> I've seen who's never berated an umpire.

I hope you don't consider Griffey a spoiled brat, then, because he
didn't do it either. (In fact, he'd usually share a laugh with the
second-base ump on his way out to the field.)

MC

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hey, it's Griffey! He's naked in the yard again!" - Scott Rolen

Mike Wahler

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Jan 15, 2003, 6:39:49 PM1/15/03

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Emmett <emmett_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fb937fa5.03011...@posting.google.com...

> > And so far he's the *only* player
> > I've seen who's never berated an umpire.
>
> Olerud

Ah, I'd forgotten him. I know, unforgivable.
I really like John a lot.

-Mike

NLR011

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Jan 15, 2003, 7:19:59 PM1/15/03

to

Using your standard, Lou Brock wasn't a "star" since he succeeded at stealing
bases only 75% of the time. Rickey Henderson just BARELY makes it under your
scrutiny since he stole bases successfully just 80% of the time. Ichiro has a
75% stolen base success rate. And who said you have to have a .400 OBP to be
considered a "star"? Where is this written? Ichiro's career .385 OBP isn't
good enough? Last year he had a .388 OBP which 10th in the league and 1st in
the league among RFs. But as far as I'm concerned, simply having most votes
for the All Star game is what makes him the biggest star in MLB. And being the
best defensive RF in the game doesn't hurt either.

But lets not forget what I asked. I want the names of those that think Ichiro
is just average.

Anybody?

Hsberman said: (I paraphrase)
"Ichiro should have at least .400 OBP and 80% stolen base success to be
considered a star"

Honus Wagner

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Jan 15, 2003, 10:00:13 PM1/15/03

to

Ichiro being average? No, but he is not one of the top 15 position players
in the MLB, and maybe not top 20:

For what it is worth: my top 10 (not necessarily in order)
B Bonds, A Rodriguez, J Giambi, V Guerrero, S Sosa, S Green, J Thome, M
Ramirez, M Tejeda, B Giles, L Berkman, B Abreu, C Delgado, A Pujols, C
Jones, M Ordonez, J Edmonds, J Kent, J Bagwell, T Helton,

I would put Ichiro in there somewhere near the end but definately not in top
15.

And you can record my name on that one.
Randy

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030115191959...@mb-fm.aol.com...

Mike Schmidt

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Jan 15, 2003, 2:20:20 PM1/15/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030115105823...@mb-da.aol.com...

"Mike Schmidt" says "aye!"

Jason Giambi was robbed of his second MVP!

Bobby Abreu has a career OPS of .931 and has never made an All-Star
team, nor even been seriously mentioned as a possibility to make the
All-Star team.

Abreu .931 OPS

Ichiro .826 OPS

Manny Ramirez and Magglio Ordonez blow Ichiro right off the map.

NLR011

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Jan 15, 2003, 11:31:44 PM1/15/03

to

Only 3 or 4 of the players you mention are 4 tool players or better. Ichiro is
a 4 tool player.

></PRE></HTML>

NLR011

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Jan 15, 2003, 11:29:37 PM1/15/03

to

First off, how do the things you mentioned make Ichiro just an average player?
Stay focused. Do you think Ichiro is just an average player? Yes or no?

With that said, lets take a look at your analysis regarding Ichiro as compared
to Giambi, Abreu, Magglio, Manny.

Giambi and Manny are both one dimensional, 2 tool players. The only things
they do are hit and hit for power. Neither can hold their own defensively or
on the base paths. In fact they are both flat out liabilities in those areas.
Lets be realistic here when we suggest that they are better BASEBALL PLAYERS
than Ichiro. That's crazy talk. Ichiro is a 4 tool player. To say that Abreu
is a better pure hitter than Ichiro is just silly. Ichiro gets over 100 at
bats a year more than Abreu and strikes out around half as often. And we all
no Abreu is no Ichiro defensively. Magglio is a well rounded player with
better #s than Ichiro in some offensive categories while worse #s in orthers.
Ichiro is the best defensively of the two. You said Magglio "blows Ichiro off
map". Bad scouting.

>
>"Mike Schmidt" says "aye!"
>
>Jason Giambi was robbed of his second MVP!
>
>Bobby Abreu has a career OPS of .931 and has never made an All-Star
>team, nor even been seriously mentioned as a possibility to make the
>All-Star team.
>
>Abreu .931 OPS
>
>Ichiro .826 OPS
>
>Manny Ramirez and Magglio Ordonez blow Ichiro right off the map.

></PRE></HTML>

Jason Michael Barker

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Jan 15, 2003, 11:51:06 PM1/15/03

to

On 15 Jan 2003, NLR011 wrote:

> Those who think Ichiro is no better than just an average player please
> speak up now.

Ichiro is an average RF. There you go.

--
Jason Michael Barker
http://strikethree.com
jmb<at>strikethree<dot>com

Jason Michael Barker

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Jan 15, 2003, 11:53:14 PM1/15/03

to

On 16 Jan 2003, NLR011 wrote:

> Only 3 or 4 of the players you mention are 4 tool players or better.
> Ichiro is a 4 tool player.

If I may paraphrase your earlier post: How do the things you mentioned
make Ichiro the better player? Stay focused.

Bada Bing

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Jan 15, 2003, 11:58:33 PM1/15/03

to

> Giambi and Manny are both one dimensional, 2 tool players. The only
things
> they do are hit and hit for power.

"Only hit and hit for power", not too shabby. Giambi and Manny are two of
the best and that's what they're paid to do.

>Neither can hold their own defensively or
> on the base paths. In fact they are both flat out liabilities in those
areas.

Giambi's (FPCT .995) (Total chances 800) (Range factor 9.17)
Olerud's (FPCT .996) (Total chances 1275) (Range factor 8.67)
Ichiro (FPCT .991) (Total chances 336)
I wouldn't call those numbers as terrible as you make them sound.

Ichiro
Giambi
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB BA OBP SLG OPS

647 111 208 27 8 8 51 31 15 68 .321 .388 .425 .813

560 120 176 34 1 41 122 2 2 109 .314 .435 .598 1.034

Ichiro's prowess on the bases doesn't seem to outweigh his lack of power.

When you compare Giambi's stats to Ichiro's, how do you discount Giambi so
easily and not say you're being biased?

Honus Wagner

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Jan 15, 2003, 11:59:58 PM1/15/03

to

Are you just trying to irritate everyone? Is Ichiro average?

NO, he is clearly one of the top 30 players in the league without question.
That is the answer to your question.

To go only moderately deeper into numbers:

By your standards, Ichiro was clearly not as good offensively as Bonds,
Ramirez, Sweeney, Walker, Guerrero, Bernie Williams, Helton, and Ch Jones
last year. I say that because you seem to rely so heavily on batting
average and all those were higher than Ichiro. So he is now 9th
offensively.

Add to the list: Ordonez because he hit 38 hrs and had a batting average
only 1 pt below Ichiro. Vidro, .490 slg % and batting average close to
Ichiro's, Giambi, Thome .598, .445 OBP!!! (nough said), Pujols, Kent,
Edmonds, Nomar... same story, same approx batting average with a lot more
power.

Now Ichiro is 17th offensively.

Throw in Alex Rodriguez and Brian Giles and Ichiro falls to 19th.

Andruw Jones and Tori Hunter have better OPS's as does L Berkman, S Green, B
Abreu, J Olerud, G ANderson, and S Finley.

Now Ichiro is 27th offensively.

Now, which of those players does Ichiro have enough defensively and on base
paths to surpass? Given Bill James analysis of speed and defense, I would
say that the only players Ichiro's passes are maybe G Anderson, B Abreu, L
Walker (injured too much).

Now Ichiro is somewhere in there in the low 20's upper teens.

Interesting note is that Torii Hunter, Steve Finley, Andruw Jones and ARod
all have Gold Gloves too (to use your metric of defense) and yet all had
better OPS than Ichiro last year.

Would you rather have Andruw Jones or Ichiro? I am not sure which I would
choose, Hunter vs Ichiro? ARod vs Ichiro, no contest for ARod.... Finley
vs Ichiro, I choose Ichiro (but I am not a believer that Finley will repeat
his year).

Clearly Ichiro is not average because that would mean that he is somewhere
in the 150-300 range in ranking of players. But, Ichiro is also (IMHO) not
in the top 20 of position players I would choose to have on my team, that
list is something like:

1. Bonds
2. ARod
3. Giambi
4. Guerrero
5. Thome
6. Ramirez
7. Giles
8. S Green
9. Helton
10. Berkman
11. Sweeney
12. C Jones
13. Pujols
14. Edmonds
15. Delgado (think he will have comeback year)
16. Sosa (forgot him, he should be higher)
17. B Williams
18. M Ordonez (not sure I am believer yet)
19. T Hunter
20. A Jones
21. Ichiro.....

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030115232937...@mb-cc.aol.com...

NLR011

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Jan 16, 2003, 2:01:06 AM1/16/03

to

Bad scouting. Nothing contained within any of Ichiro's stats suggests this to
be true. Can you expound on this opinion and tell me why it is you think
Ichiro is no better than a middle of the pack RF? If he is a mere "average"
RF then that means there are around 15 other RFs better than he is. Being that
there are 30 teams in MLB. I challenge you to name them. In fact just give me
the names of 3 RFs that are better than Ichiro. Defensively he has no peer..
How many RFs strike out fewer times than Ichiro? How many RFs have as many
Intentional bases on ball than Ichiro? Allow me to quote Joe Torre: "Ichiro is
the best right fielder I have ever seen". Ichiro is just average? Wow! Learn
the game.

NLR011

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Jan 16, 2003, 2:10:15 AM1/16/03

to

It is ridiculous to compare Ichiro stat for stat to the players you mentioned.
Ichiro is a leadoff hitter. Many of the ones you named are power guys. Its
like comparing apples to oranges. Stick Ichiro 3rd or 4th in the batting order
and his role changes. As a leadoff hiter he does his job. Hitting HRs and
having a high slugging % is not his job. Ichiro is a pure hitter that could
adjust to any given situation. This is evident by his great bat control and
his ability to put the ball into play.

charles.beauchamp

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Jan 16, 2003, 3:23:04 AM1/16/03

to

Magglio Ordonoez in 2002 had a Total Average nearly .300 higher then Ichiro
Suzuki's. This is a gigantic difference. Career TAs Magg's is in the
neighborhood of .900 which is arguably Hall of Fame caliber. Ichiro's over
his two years is just under .850 which believe it or not isn't really an
All-Star caliber TA.

As for tools, Jose Cruz Jr and Karim Garcia are tools players.

v/r Beau

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030115233144...@mb-cc.aol.com...

Derek Milhous Zumsteg

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Jan 16, 2003, 3:30:59 AM1/16/03

to

On 16 Jan 2003 07:01:06 GMT, nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:

>Bad scouting. Nothing contained within any of Ichiro's stats suggests this to
>be true. Can you expound on this opinion and tell me why it is you think
>Ichiro is no better than a middle of the pack RF? If he is a mere "average"
>RF then that means there are around 15 other RFs better than he is. Being that
>there are 30 teams in MLB. I challenge you to name them.

Anahiem Angels, Arizona Diamondbacks, Atlanta Braves, Baltimore
Orioles, Boston Red Sox, Chicago Cubs, Chicago White Sox, Cincinnati
Reds, Cleveland Indians, Colorado Rockies, Detroit Tigers, Florida
Marlins, Houston Astros, Kansas City Royals, Los Angeles Dodgers,
Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Twins, Montreal Expos, New York Mets, New
York Yankees, Oakland Athletics, Philadelphia Phillies, Pittsburgh
Pirates, St. Louis Cardinals, San Diego Padres, San Francisco Giants,
Seattle Mariners, Tampa Bay Devil Rays, Texas Rangers, Toronto Blue
Jays.

>In fact just give me
>the names of 3 RFs that are better than Ichiro. Defensively he has no peer..

Vladimir Guerrero, Sammy Sosa, aaaand take your pick between
Ordonez/Green and Abreu for that last slot. Judging by your tastes in
players, I think Abreu is probably your man.

>How many RFs strike out fewer times than Ichiro? How many RFs have as many
>Intentional bases on ball than Ichiro? Allow me to quote Joe Torre: "Ichiro is
>the best right fielder I have ever seen". Ichiro is just average? Wow! Learn
>the game.

None of those things make a player the best at his position. You could
get me a Torre quote that said Rondell White was the best left fielder
in the game, and that wouldn't make him better than Barry Bonds.
--
Derek Milhous Zumsteg
http://www.zumsteg.net/milhous
Now with.. updates. Real frequent ones, yeah.
"Yay, I'm a llama again!" -- Kuzco

charles.beauchamp

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Jan 16, 2003, 3:38:30 AM1/16/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030116021015...@mb-mr.aol.com...

> It is ridiculous to compare Ichiro stat for stat to the players you
mentioned.
> Ichiro is a leadoff hitter. Many of the ones you named are power guys.
Its
> like comparing apples to oranges. Stick Ichiro 3rd or 4th in the batting
order
> and his role changes. As a leadoff hiter he does his job. Hitting HRs
and
> having a high slugging % is not his job. Ichiro is a pure hitter that
could
> adjust to any given situation. This is evident by his great bat control
and
> his ability to put the ball into play.
>

Total Average eliminates the question of batting order position. OPS is
only useful when comparing players in similar batting order positions.
Ichiro is not even among the 3 best players at his position. Maggs, Larry
Walker and Shawn Green blow him away just off the top of my head. As for
you bizarre challenge about Ichiro being merely average....who the heck is
saying that? Ichiro is not average if you mean outside the top 150 position
players in the majors. If you really mean that he is outside say the top 10
everyday right fielders in the majors then it is less obvious.

Ichiro is an entertaining player. But he is quite likely overrated.

v/r Beau

Honus Wagner

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Jan 16, 2003, 8:18:17 AM1/16/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030116021015...@mb-mr.aol.com...

> It is ridiculous to compare Ichiro stat for stat to the players you
mentioned.
> Ichiro is a leadoff hitter. Many of the ones you named are power guys.
Its
> like comparing apples to oranges. Stick Ichiro 3rd or 4th in the batting
order
> and his role changes. As a leadoff hiter he does his job. Hitting HRs
and
> having a high slugging % is not his job. Ichiro is a pure hitter that
could
> adjust to any given situation. This is evident by his great bat control
and
> his ability to put the ball into play.

In my oppinion, a hitter's job is to maximize the number of bases that he
advances while consuming the fewest outs doing it.

If Barry Bonds hit leadoff, he would still hit 40-50 hrs and walk over 200
times, hit .370+ and be a much better player than Ichiro.... Barry Bonds
puts the ball in play close to Ichiro's rate and which would you rather
have, 100 hrs (if Bonds never walked) and 250 hits, or 10 hrs and 260 hits?

Because Ichiro is not a great leadoff hitter (take some walks Ichiro
PLEASE!), I don't buy that if he hit 3rd or 4th he would out produce
Ordonez, Thome, Giambi... etc... in fact just saying it sounds like the most
idiotic thing I have heard in this whole thread.

Is Ichiro the best leadoff RF'er? YES. Is he the best RF'er? NO, see
Derek's comments on that one or if you insist on names:

Sosa, Green, Guerrero, Abreu, Walker, Ordonez, Klesko(not sure if he is
considered a RF), Sheffield, Kearns, Floyd (see Klesko)....

Ok, so Ichiro is at best the 4th or 5th RFer.... I would say more like 6th.

Bada Bing

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Jan 16, 2003, 10:04:48 AM1/16/03

to

You've earned this. You're an idiot.

O.D.

Dan Szymborski

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Jan 16, 2003, 12:18:08 PM1/16/03

to

In article <20030116103148...@mb-fz.aol.com>, nlr...@aol.com
says...

> There is more to playing baseball than hitting.
> Short attention span BAseball Newbies dont understand this.

You don't even know where you've stumbled, have you kid? This isn't
Marinerzfan94's Marinerz ROOL!!!1111 web board.

This is *usenet* and is populated with past and current contributors that
have worked in front offices and published baseball books.

--
Dan Szymborski
d...@baseballprimer.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not a whole-hearted
supporter of what is good."
-Robert Schumann

Dan Szymborski

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 12:18:55 PM1/16/03

to

In article <20030116103148...@mb-fz.aol.com>, nlr...@aol.com
says...

> There is more to playing baseball than hitting.

> Short attention span BAseball Newbies dont understand this.

You don't even know where you've stumbled, have you kid? This isn't

Marinerzfan94's Marinerz ROOL!!!1111 web board.

This is *usenet* and a good number of past and current contributors that
have worked in front offices and/or published baseball books.

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 1:24:32 PM1/16/03

to

LOL. If you only knew.

Hey, Danny boy, Larue says hi! HAHA

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 1:39:51 PM1/16/03

to

I've never patronized any baseball message board, newsgroup or chat room that
didn't contain it's share of writers and or mlb players or employees. Maybe
it's just the particular boards I frequent You act as if Usenet is the holy
grail of topical discussion. It certainly is not. This board is
bopper-infested.

Believe me, I am not impressed with who you are and what web sites (LOL) you
scribe for. You don't walk in my circles. You kiss ass to those who walk in
my circles.

Deadlines are a bitch, huh?

Learn The Game.

Michael Cox

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:13:36 PM1/16/03

to

In article <20030116132432...@mb-fy.aol.com>,
nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:

> LOL. If you only knew.

If we only knew, we'd probably lose respect for a prominent "baseball
man."

MC

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hey, it's Griffey! He's naked in the yard again!" - Scott Rolen

Michael Cox

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:24:00 PM1/16/03

to

In article <20030116133951...@mb-fy.aol.com>,
nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:

> I've never patronized any baseball message board, newsgroup or chat
> room that didn't contain it's share of writers and or mlb players or
> employees.

"I'm important! I'm important! I'm better than you!"

> You act as if Usenet is the holy grail of topical discussion. It
> certainly is not. This board is bopper-infested.

With all due respect (not that you've EARNED any), you don't know what
the hell you're talking about.

Thus, you confirm our worst fears about those who "walk in your
circles."

> Believe me, I am not impressed with who you are and what web sites
> (LOL) you scribe for.

Yeah, that web thing, it'll never catch on.

> You don't walk in my circles.

Good thing too.

> You kiss ass to those who walk in my circles.

Trust me, we don't. YOU kiss ass to those who allow you to do what you
do, and that includes thinking like they do.

> Deadlines are a bitch, huh?

Haven't you got one right about now?

> Learn The Game.

You first.

MC

Michael Cox

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:25:13 PM1/16/03

to

In article <20030116132432...@mb-fy.aol.com>,
nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:

> LOL. If you only knew.
>
> Hey, Danny boy, Larue says hi! HAHA

Johnny Larue? That you? Loved the Doughnuts 'n' Aerobics show...

MC
(Figuring by the intelligence of the previous posts that it can't be
anyone *smart* named Larue...)

Dan Szymborski

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:48:06 PM1/16/03

to

In article <20030116132432...@mb-fy.aol.com>, nlr...@aol.com

says...

> LOL. If you only knew.
>
> Hey, Danny boy, Larue says hi! HAHA

While just the act of using words is a component of written communication
that shouldn't be ignored, you seem to overlook the fact that the words
you choose and the order in which you put the words are also key
components of coherence.

Dan Szymborski

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:52:41 PM1/16/03

to

In article <20030116133951...@mb-fy.aol.com>, nlr...@aol.com

says...

> I've never patronized any baseball message board, newsgroup or chat room that
> didn't contain it's share of writers and or mlb players or employees.

That's right. I can just picture Art Martone, Theo Epstein, Keith Law,
and incoherent "NLR011" having a vigorous debate on baseball in the
chatroom "NLRO11" set up.

> Maybe
> it's just the particular boards I frequent You act as if Usenet is the holy
> grail of topical discussion. It certainly is not.

It certainly is.

How do I know this? It has 20 years of existence sans you.

> This board is
> bopper-infested.
>
> Believe me, I am not impressed with who you are and what web sites (LOL) you
> scribe for. You don't walk in my circles. You kiss ass to those who walk in
> my circles.

I doubt you have the cognitive ability to even *draw* a circle.

[...]

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:54:21 PM1/16/03

to

That's what editors are for.

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:56:17 PM1/16/03

to

Wrong again. You don't need a password to get to this one.

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 2:59:34 PM1/16/03

to

Wrong again. 21 yrs + in existence.

> It (USENET) has 20 years of existence sans you

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 3:00:11 PM1/16/03

to

I doubt that you doubt that.

Gareth Owen

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 3:08:03 PM1/16/03

to

nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) writes:

> I've never patronized any baseball message board,

The active word here being "patronized"

> newsgroup or chat room that didn't contain it's share of writers and or mlb
> players or employees.

--
Gareth Owen
"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX.
We don't believe this to be a coincidence."

Honus Wagner

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 3:23:48 PM1/16/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030116103148...@mb-fz.aol.com...

> >Because Ichiro is not a great leadoff hitter
>
> LOL. Ichiro was intentionally walked more than any hitter in the league
last
> year but he isnt a great leadoff hitter? Tell me this: What leadoff
hitter had
> more times on base than Ichiro last year? Who is the best leadoff hitter
in
> baseball?

Ichiro may be the best leadoff hitter in the worst era for leadoff hitters
ever! See Rickey Henderson, Brett Butler, Wills, Brock and others that had
OBP above .400 for great lead off hitters. In this era of obnoxious hitters
as you say, an OBP of .388 does not cut it for someone to be called a Great
Leadoff hitter.

>
> >Is Ichiro the best leadoff RF'er? YES. Is he the best RF'er? NO,
>
> Bad scouting. Do you realize that there is more to baseball than just
hitting?
> Above you said Barry Bonds was a better PLAYER than Ichiro. And you say
Sosa,
> Green, Guerrero, Abreu, Walker, ORdonez Klesko, Sheffield, KEarns and
Floyd are
> better RFs than Ichiro. Allow me to correct you: Ichiro is a better
BASEBALL
> PLAYER than all of the guys you mentioned. Some may be better HITTERS but
not
> one that you mentioned (with maybe the exception of Guererro) is a better
> BASEBALL PLAYER than Ichiro. There is more to playing baseball than
hitting.
> Short attention span BAseball Newbies dont understand this. To say that
Sammy
> Sosa is a better BASEBALL PLAYER than Ichiro is absurd. Sosa is a sloth
on the
> base paths and cant play defense to save his life. The guy can hit and
that is
> it. Klesko is a better BASEBALL PLAYER than Ichiro? LMAO. WOW!!
KEarns?
> HAHAHAHA.

Klesko's 2 year average 2000-01:

sb: 23, cs 4, OBP: .390, SLG% .520

I use his 2 year averages to get his sb stats because last year he had leg
problems that limited him....

Look at those numbers compared to Ichiro:

sb: 31, cs 15!, OBP: 388, SLG% 441

And Klesko is considered an average defensive fielder...

so lets summarize:

Klesko: better base runner, more power, gets on base more
Ichiro: better fielder

If fielding is the end all be all, then Neifi Perez should be a HoF.

> This sort of dumbed down outlook on the greatest game is a result of MLB's
> stupid marketing strategy at attracting today's A.D.D. ritilan generation
as a
> demographic. MLB needs to reverse it's decision to juice the baseball.
> Baseball purists such as myself are all there is to attempt to try and
preserve
> the integrity of the game by educating you kids on what REAL BASEBALL is
all
> about. Not this HR derby crap we have to endure nowadays. Someday I hope
we
> can get back to REAL BASEBALL. Ichiro represents REAL BASEBALL.

Look, you insulted my love for Baseball now, I can quote stats from the Stl
Browns, have visited the sacred grounds of the site where the Polo Grounds
stood, Own a $5,000 replica model of the Polo Grounds and will bet that I
can name more Hall of Famers than most in this group. Baseball is ALL ABOUT
the past and how it relates to future..... Ichiro is not great in past
present or future tense. If he continues at this level for 15 more years he
is a marginal HoFer, probably making it because he has had a substantial
impact on the game.... because he is Japanese not because he is one of the
greatest players of his era.

Randy

Brent

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 4:14:52 PM1/16/03

to

nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote in message news:<20030115191959...@mb-fm.aol.com>...

> But as far as I'm concerned, simply having most votes
> for the All Star game is what makes him the biggest star in MLB.

I just may have to print this out and stick it in a frame. This is
pure genius.

Popularity + votes = all star game votes leader and THE BIGGEST STAR
IN THE MLB!!!!!

Time to throw out batting averages, on-base percentages, ribbies, etc.
It's time to enter Idiot Mike's stat-free fantasia...

Brent

= a m z =

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 7:58:29 PM1/16/03

to

"Brent" <over...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:
>
> > But as far as I'm concerned, simply having most votes
> > for the All Star game is what makes him the biggest star in MLB.
>
> I just may have to print this out and stick it in a frame. This is
> pure genius.
>
> Popularity + votes = all star game votes leader and THE BIGGEST STAR
> IN THE MLB!!!!!
>
> Time to throw out batting averages, on-base percentages, ribbies, etc.
> It's time to enter Idiot Mike's stat-free fantasia...
>
> Brent

Do NOT take this as a defense of NLR, but...

Stats may mean a lot, but they're also not everything. If they were truly
predictive and objective, you wouldn't see "new and improved" player rating
systems come out. There wouldn't be debates about which player should be
signed to which team for what money. Baseball is a giant tangle of all
kinds of related stats. You cannot neutralize ALL of the variables. Some
of it has to be "gut feel" or intangibles.

It reminds me of a quote from Benjamin Disraeli:

"Lies, damned lies and statistics."

charles.beauchamp

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Jan 16, 2003, 8:59:00 PM1/16/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030116103148...@mb-fz.aol.com...

> >If Barry Bonds hit leadoff, he would still hit 40-50 hrs and walk over
200
> >times, hit .370+ and be a much better player than Ichiro.... Barry Bonds
> >puts the ball in play close to Ichiro's rate and which would you rather
> >have, 100 hrs (if Bonds never walked) and 250 hits, or 10 hrs and 260
hits?
>
> I never suggested that Ichiro was a better hitter than Bonds. Nobody is a
> better hitter than Bonds. BUT, Bonds would not have that many walks as a
> leadoff hitter. He wouldn't be pitched around as much in that situation.
> Bonds' OBP has to be taken with a grain of salt in this era of juiced
> baseballs, watered down pitching and steroids.
>

Do you actually know anything about baseball? If Bonds hits leadoff, he
get's a lot fewer plate appearances with runners on...therefore he get's
even FEWER theoretical good pitches to swing at. Hell, he might walk 300
times if he hit leadoff....seriously. OPB around .600. BTW, taking Bond's
OBP with a grain of salt shows ignorance. No one else is getting on at the
rate that he is in thie era of juiced baseballs (which is nonsense btw) and
watered down...blah blah blah.

> >Because Ichiro is not a great leadoff hitter
>
> LOL. Ichiro was intentionally walked more than any hitter in the league
last
> year but he isnt a great leadoff hitter? Tell me this: What leadoff
hitter had
> more times on base than Ichiro last year? Who is the best leadoff hitter
in
> baseball?
>

Ichiro walked 68 times producing an OBP of .388. It's a pretty good OBP,
but not what you'd want in a .330 hitting leadoff hitter. Not even close.

Wow, you have trolled in now and attempted to alientate the entire ng. Now
here is some of that there baseball education. Ichiro plays RF. By it's
nature that is not the bastion of defense. The impact on great defense in a
position that sees the fewest flyballs in the outfield is negligible.
Having said that, hitting IS the most important thing. Having a great
defensive right fielder saves you very few runs over the course of a season.
Having a guy that produces runs is much more valuable.

Not even getting into the various comparitives that show that Ichiro perhaps
is actually overrated on defense....

v/r Beau

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 9:25:38 PM1/16/03

to

On 16 Jan 2003, NLR011 wrote:

> Can you expound on this opinion and tell me why it is you think Ichiro
> is no better than a middle of the pack RF?

Sure; he doesn't hit for power. He could also walk more.

> If he is a mere "average" RF then that means there are around 15 other
> RFs better than he is.

Clearly, Vlad Guerrero and Sammy Sosa. Magglio Ordonez, Shawn Green. Bobby
Abreu. Cliff Floyd. Gary Sheffield. Larry Walker? Maybe. Tim Salmon
perhaps. A full season of Austin Kearns. JD Drew, if he could stay
healthy. Hell, even Bobby Kielty (over a full season).

--
Jason Michael Barker
http://strikethree.com
jmb<at>strikethree<dot>com

Ivan Weiss

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 9:46:52 PM1/16/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030116103148...@mb-fz.aol.com...

There is more to playing baseball than hitting.
> Short attention span BAseball Newbies dont understand this. To say that
Sammy
> Sosa is a better BASEBALL PLAYER than Ichiro is absurd. Sosa is a sloth
on the
> base paths and cant play defense to save his life. The guy can hit and
that is
> it. Klesko is a better BASEBALL PLAYER than Ichiro? LMAO. WOW!!
KEarns?
> HAHAHAHA.
>
> This sort of dumbed down outlook on the greatest game is a result of MLB's
> stupid marketing strategy at attracting today's A.D.D. ritilan generation
as a
> demographic. MLB needs to reverse it's decision to juice the baseball.
> Baseball purists such as myself are all there is to attempt to try and
preserve
> the integrity of the game by educating you kids on what REAL BASEBALL is
all
> about. Not this HR derby crap we have to endure nowadays. Someday I hope
we
> can get back to REAL BASEBALL. Ichiro represents REAL BASEBALL.

I am neither a kid nor a newbie. I have been following major league
baseball, man and boy, up close and personal, for more than 50 years, in the
National League and the American League. I can look at baseball from the POV
of a former player, a former sports journalist, and even as somewhat of a
numbers geek.

IMO, your POV is largely esthetic. You like watching guys who can run fast
and have bazookas for arms. There's nothing wrong with that. that's fine.
But I am persuaded that walks and HRs do one hell of a lot more to help
teams win than running fast and throwing BBs on one hop to the plate.
Defense is always desirable, and it's fun to watch, but there's too much
evidence out there that offense wins more games than defense does. You can
stamp your feet, hold your hands over your ears, and try to outshout those
who disagree with you. But it will be to no avail.

I don't need you to tell me what REAL BASEBALL is. You like to watch guys
run fast and bunt? Fine with me. I don't need you to define "purist" for me.
I like Ichiro just fine. I love watching him play. I hope he gets better
yet. For a little wiry no-power guy, he's as good as it gets. He needs to
walk more if they insist on batting him leadoff, and last season he did just
that.

But he needs more of Earl Weaver's favorite players around him -- "those big
cocksuckers who hit those three-run homers."

And what is this bullshit about Bonds' OBP being taken with a grain of salt?
Either Bonds got on base, or he fucking didn't. Now do you have something
positive to contribute, or are you a troll?
--
Ivan Weiss
Vashon WA http://www.baseball116.com
Proud to sponsor the Smead Jolley, Zeke Bonura, Dale Alexander,
and Bob Fothergill pages at www.baseball-reference.com

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 10:32:37 PM1/16/03

to

Your? LMAO.

>Your too ignorant

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 10:34:02 PM1/16/03

to

Learn the game, son.

>> If he is a mere "average" RF then that means there are around 15 other
>> RFs better than he is.
>
>Clearly, Vlad Guerrero and Sammy Sosa. Magglio Ordonez, Shawn Green. Bobby
>Abreu. Cliff Floyd. Gary Sheffield. Larry Walker? Maybe. Tim Salmon
>perhaps. A full season of Austin Kearns. JD Drew, if he could stay
>healthy. Hell, even Bobby Kielty (over a full season).
>
>
>--
>Jason Michael Barker
>http://strikethree.com
>jmb<at>strikethree<dot>com
>

></PRE></HTML>

NLR011

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 10:55:17 PM1/16/03

to

Well I suppose it's all how you look at it. If we took the top 30 MLBs and had
a skills competition consisting of:

1) hitting for contact
2) hitting for power
3) speed from home plate to 1B
4) stolen bases
5) defensive range
6) throwing accuracy
7) arm strength

Ichiro wins.

"Hitting for power" is the only individual skill Ichiro wouldnt have a chance
of winning.

"Defensive range", and "stolen bases" are skills Ichiro would be a leading
contender to win.

"Hitting for contact", "speed from home to 1B", "throwing accuracy", and "arm
strength" are the skills Ichiro would probably most likely win hands down.

ARod and Vlad are really the only two players in MLB that could possibly beat
Ichiro in such a competition.

I realize that each skill has different value in a team scenario. But when
simply analyzing ALL AROUND raw baseball skill then you have to put Ichiro near
the very top. You can stamp your feet, hold your hands over your ears, wet
your panties, and try to outshout your daddy.. But it will be to no avail.

Fiction Factory

unread,

Jan 16, 2003, 11:35:25 PM1/16/03

to

I'm not sure what you mean by pure hitter either.<<

This is a learned board that doesnt need anyone defining things such as pure
hitters but, the term itself was originally created by sportswriters to
describe the Ty Cobb types, players that hit for average didnt walk or hit many
Hrs.

It was also intended to be a slap in the face of Ruth and those other louts who
were messing up the game by hitting balls over the fence.

Jason Michael Barker

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 12:19:09 AM1/17/03

to

On 17 Jan 2003, NLR011 wrote:

> Learn the game, son.

Well, if that's your stance, how can I possibly disagree?

Lurker Steve

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 12:32:15 AM1/17/03

to

"charles.beauchamp" <charles....@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ctJV9.14559$kH3.2385@sccrnsc03...

> Shhh, he just read his basball for idiots copy that he got at Barnes and
> Noble. Also has his Charlie Lau videos on slap hitting. He's equipped.

Now, now. He's a regular reader of Peter Gammons, so he must be
well-informed.

Honus Wagner

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 2:01:02 AM1/17/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030116225517...@mb-cc.aol.com...

> Well I suppose it's all how you look at it. If we took the top 30 MLBs
and had
> a skills competition consisting of:
>
> 1) hitting for contact
> 2) hitting for power
> 3) speed from home plate to 1B
> 4) stolen bases
> 5) defensive range
> 6) throwing accuracy
> 7) arm strength

Given how rarely BOnds misses when he swings hard, I'd have to think Bonds
wins the contact category as well as the power category.

Speed category probably goes to J Pierre.

Defensive range has Andruw Jones name on it
THrowing accuracy is Mondesi as is arm strength (maybe Vladimir Guerrero,
Troy Glaus, Scott Rolen.... depends on where and what kind of throw you are
talking about)... so by my book, Ichiro is not a lock to win any aspect of
the competitoin.

Jeremy Olson

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 1:51:00 AM1/17/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030115232937...@mb-cc.aol.com...
> First off, how do the things you mentioned make Ichiro just an average
player?
> Stay focused. Do you think Ichiro is just an average player? Yes or no?
>
> With that said, lets take a look at your analysis regarding Ichiro as
compared
> to Giambi, Abreu, Magglio, Manny.
>
> Giambi and Manny are both one dimensional, 2 tool players. The only
things
> they do are hit and hit for power.

And get on base a ton, and drive in runs, and hit for average.
Ramirez and Giambi are infinately better hitters than Ichiro. Not that I
don't like Ichiro, he is certainly above average, but he isn't even in the
same league as these two when it comes to swinging the stick.

>Neither can hold their own defensively or
> on the base paths. In fact they are both flat out liabilities in those
areas.
> Lets be realistic here when we suggest that they are better BASEBALL
PLAYERS
> than Ichiro. That's crazy talk. Ichiro is a 4 tool player. To say that
Abreu
> is a better pure hitter than Ichiro is just silly. Ichiro gets over 100
at
> bats a year more than Abreu and strikes out around half as often. And we
all
> no Abreu is no Ichiro defensively. Magglio is a well rounded player with
> better #s than Ichiro in some offensive categories while worse #s in
orthers.
> Ichiro is the best defensively of the two. You said Magglio "blows Ichiro
off
> map". Bad scouting.

No, you need to look at stats besides batting average.

Jeremy Olson

> >"Mike Schmidt" says "aye!"
> >
> >Jason Giambi was robbed of his second MVP!
> >
> >Bobby Abreu has a career OPS of .931 and has never made an All-Star
> >team, nor even been seriously mentioned as a possibility to make the
> >All-Star team.
> >
> >Abreu .931 OPS
> >
> >Ichiro .826 OPS
> >
> >Manny Ramirez and Magglio Ordonez blow Ichiro right off the map.
> ></PRE></HTML>
>
>

Jeremy Olson

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Jan 17, 2003, 1:54:07 AM1/17/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030116021015...@mb-mr.aol.com...
> It is ridiculous to compare Ichiro stat for stat to the players you
mentioned.
> Ichiro is a leadoff hitter. Many of the ones you named are power guys.
Its
> like comparing apples to oranges. Stick Ichiro 3rd or 4th in the batting
order
> and his role changes. As a leadoff hiter he does his job. Hitting HRs
and
> having a high slugging % is not his job.

No it's not, but that doesn't make him any better than anyone else.
You don't get a handicap for the position you play. Either someone is a
better hitter or they aren't.

>Ichiro is a pure hitter that could
> adjust to any given situation. This is evident by his great bat control
and
> his ability to put the ball into play.

That still doesn't get him 35 HR and 100 RBI's.

Jeremy Olson

> >Are you just trying to irritate everyone? Is Ichiro average?
> >
> >NO, he is clearly one of the top 30 players in the league without
question.
> >That is the answer to your question.
> >
> >To go only moderately deeper into numbers:
> >
> >By your standards, Ichiro was clearly not as good offensively as Bonds,
> >Ramirez, Sweeney, Walker, Guerrero, Bernie Williams, Helton, and Ch Jones
> >last year. I say that because you seem to rely so heavily on batting
> >average and all those were higher than Ichiro. So he is now 9th
> >offensively.
> >
> >Add to the list: Ordonez because he hit 38 hrs and had a batting average
> >only 1 pt below Ichiro. Vidro, .490 slg % and batting average close to
> >Ichiro's, Giambi, Thome .598, .445 OBP!!! (nough said), Pujols, Kent,
> >Edmonds, Nomar... same story, same approx batting average with a lot more
> >power.
> >
> >Now Ichiro is 17th offensively.
> >
> >Throw in Alex Rodriguez and Brian Giles and Ichiro falls to 19th.
> >
> >Andruw Jones and Tori Hunter have better OPS's as does L Berkman, S
Green, B
> >Abreu, J Olerud, G ANderson, and S Finley.
> >
> >Now Ichiro is 27th offensively.
> >
> >Now, which of those players does Ichiro have enough defensively and on
base
> >paths to surpass? Given Bill James analysis of speed and defense, I
would
> >say that the only players Ichiro's passes are maybe G Anderson, B Abreu,
L
> >Walker (injured too much).
> >
> >Now Ichiro is somewhere in there in the low 20's upper teens.
> >
> >Interesting note is that Torii Hunter, Steve Finley, Andruw Jones and
ARod
> >all have Gold Gloves too (to use your metric of defense) and yet all had
> >better OPS than Ichiro last year.
> >
> >Would you rather have Andruw Jones or Ichiro? I am not sure which I
would
> >choose, Hunter vs Ichiro? ARod vs Ichiro, no contest for ARod....
Finley
> >vs Ichiro, I choose Ichiro (but I am not a believer that Finley will
repeat
> >his year).
> >
> >Clearly Ichiro is not average because that would mean that he is
somewhere
> >in the 150-300 range in ranking of players. But, Ichiro is also (IMHO)
not
> >in the top 20 of position players I would choose to have on my team, that
> >list is something like:
> >
> >1. Bonds
> >2. ARod
> >3. Giambi
> >4. Guerrero
> >5. Thome
> >6. Ramirez
> >7. Giles
> >8. S Green
> >9. Helton
> >10. Berkman
> >11. Sweeney
> >12. C Jones
> >13. Pujols
> >14. Edmonds
> >15. Delgado (think he will have comeback year)
> >16. Sosa (forgot him, he should be higher)
> >17. B Williams
> >18. M Ordonez (not sure I am believer yet)
> >19. T Hunter
> >20. A Jones
> >21. Ichiro.....

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20030115232937...@mb-cc.aol.com...
> >> First off, how do the things you mentioned make Ichiro just an average
> >player?
> >> Stay focused. Do you think Ichiro is just an average player? Yes or
no?
> >>
> >> With that said, lets take a look at your analysis regarding Ichiro as
> >compared
> >> to Giambi, Abreu, Magglio, Manny.
> >>
> >> Giambi and Manny are both one dimensional, 2 tool players. The only
> >things

> >> they do are hit and hit for power. Neither can hold their own

defensively
> >or
> >> on the base paths. In fact they are both flat out liabilities in those
> >areas.
> >> Lets be realistic here when we suggest that they are better BASEBALL
> >PLAYERS
> >> than Ichiro. That's crazy talk. Ichiro is a 4 tool player. To say
that
> >Abreu
> >> is a better pure hitter than Ichiro is just silly. Ichiro gets over
100
> >at
> >> bats a year more than Abreu and strikes out around half as often. And
we
> >all
> >> no Abreu is no Ichiro defensively. Magglio is a well rounded player
with
> >> better #s than Ichiro in some offensive categories while worse #s in
> >orthers.
> >> Ichiro is the best defensively of the two. You said Magglio "blows
Ichiro
> >off
> >> map". Bad scouting.
> >>
> >>
> >> >

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 9:51:12 AM1/17/03

john wallace craven

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 2:06:39 PM1/17/03

to

On 17 Jan 2003, NLR011 wrote:

> Well I suppose it's all how you look at it. If we took the top 30 MLBs and had
> a skills competition consisting of:
>
> 1) hitting for contact
> 2) hitting for power
> 3) speed from home plate to 1B
> 4) stolen bases
> 5) defensive range
> 6) throwing accuracy
> 7) arm strength

You forgot a couple:

8) Moxie
9) Giving his all, every time out
10) Chutzpah
11) Giving 110%
12) Being a go-getter

John Craven

= a m z =

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 4:26:56 PM1/17/03

to

In responding to the polarized stats vs. popularity debate, I was trying to
say that the answer lies somewhere inbetween. Neither pure stats nor
popularity are uniquely definitive of quality. If forced to choose, I'd
take the stats, but with some concerns.

As for your Britney example, what talents are we referring to? Singing?
Dancing? or ? Simply as an "entertainer" for the masses, I would say she is
very successful, and therefore "talented" at that.

Along similar lines, I would ask why people go to a baseball game. I think
it is to be "entertained" in some form or another. If your idea of a fun
game to watch is a pitchers' duel, you will have some different ideas about
who are better players than someone who prefers a home run derby.

All that said, All Star votes are a rotten measure. Too much ballot
stuffing and name-recognition (vs. "popularity because you've seen the guy
play") voting. Maybe they should make the voting a combination of fan
votes, player votes, management votes and media votes -- 1/4 weight to each.

john wallace craven

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 7:17:48 PM1/17/03

to

If you're talking about actual quality of the player (i.e. what it takes
to win games), then I would go for stats over popularity any day. NLR said
"biggest star", not "most valuable player." By definition, the biggest
star is going to be the most popular, whether he's actually any good or
not.

>
> As for your Britney example, what talents are we referring to? Singing?
> Dancing? or ? Simply as an "entertainer" for the masses, I would say she is
> very successful, and therefore "talented" at that.

I would say that she is very untalented as a singer, and since her albums
were, at least on the face, music albums, I would tend to judge her by her
ability to make music, not get breast implants.

>
> Along similar lines, I would ask why people go to a baseball game. I think
> it is to be "entertained" in some form or another. If your idea of a fun
> game to watch is a pitchers' duel, you will have some different ideas about
> who are better players than someone who prefers a home run derby.

How many people attend a given game has only a tiny indirect effect on the
chance a team has of winning. Now, a team's chance of winning should have
a great effect on attendance.

>
> All that said, All Star votes are a rotten measure. Too much ballot
> stuffing and name-recognition (vs. "popularity because you've seen the guy
> play") voting. Maybe they should make the voting a combination of fan
> votes, player votes, management votes and media votes -- 1/4 weight to each.

Or, folks can just continue to vote for whoever they want to see in the
All-Star Game and stop pretending that it's a ferocious battle between the
greatest players in each league and treat it like the pageant of stars
that it is.

John Craven

= a m z =

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 8:15:04 PM1/17/03

to

"john wallace craven" wrote:
> = a m z = wrote:

> > "john wallace craven" wrote:
> > > = a m z = wrote:

> > > > "Brent" wrote:
> > > > > (NLR011) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > But as far as I'm concerned, simply having most votes
> > > > > > for the All Star game is what makes him the biggest star in MLB.
> > > > >

> > > > > Time to throw out batting averages, on-base percentages, ribbies,
etc.
> > > > > It's time to enter Idiot Mike's stat-free fantasia...
> > > >

> > > > Stats may mean a lot, but they're also not everything.

> > > > You cannot neutralize ALL of the variables.
> > > > Some of it has to be "gut feel" or intangibles.
> > >

> If you're talking about actual quality of the player (i.e. what it takes
> to win games), then I would go for stats over popularity any day. NLR said
> "biggest star", not "most valuable player." By definition, the biggest
> star is going to be the most popular, whether he's actually any good or
> not.

I agree with you 100% here. Perhaps this entire thread is a matter of
perspective with each side arguing valid, but different points.

> > As for your Britney example, what talents are we referring to? Singing?
> > Dancing? or ? Simply as an "entertainer" for the masses, I would say
she is
> > very successful, and therefore "talented" at that.
>
> I would say that she is very untalented as a singer, and since her albums
> were, at least on the face, music albums, I would tend to judge her by her
> ability to make music, not get breast implants.

Actually, I think that "being a celebrity" is more her talent and that
singing is just one aspect of it. Do I think she can sing like Dame Kiri Te
Kanawa? Not on your life. Would I rather go to a Britney concert than one
by Barbra Streisand? Absolutely. This reminds me of a conversation I once
had with a movie studio exec. Some movies are just eye candy -- stupid,
pleasant diversions -- and they have their place. They don't all have to be
Citizen Kane, nor should they be.

> > Along similar lines, I would ask why people go to a baseball game. I
think
> > it is to be "entertained" in some form or another. If your idea of a
fun
> > game to watch is a pitchers' duel, you will have some different ideas
about
> > who are better players than someone who prefers a home run derby.
>
> How many people attend a given game has only a tiny indirect effect on the
> chance a team has of winning. Now, a team's chance of winning should have
> a great effect on attendance.

You're missing my point. I'm just saying that people's opinions of who is a
good baseball player depends on the type of baseball game you enjoy watching
and what aspects of the game appeal to you. I would guess that a great
number of fans only pay attention to defense for a dazzling DP or a diving,
Sportscenter-worthy catch.

Personally, I get a bigger kick out of watching an up-and-comer have an
outstanding game than an established star have one with equivalent stats.

> > All that said, All Star votes are a rotten measure. Too much ballot
> > stuffing and name-recognition (vs. "popularity because you've seen the
guy
> > play") voting. Maybe they should make the voting a combination of fan
> > votes, player votes, management votes and media votes -- 1/4 weight to
each.
>
> Or, folks can just continue to vote for whoever they want to see in the
> All-Star Game and stop pretending that it's a ferocious battle between the
> greatest players in each league and treat it like the pageant of stars
> that it is.

I agree.

Hsberman

unread,

Jan 17, 2003, 8:45:19 PM1/17/03

to

>You forgot a couple:
>
>8) Moxie
>9) Giving his all, every time out
>10) Chutzpah
>11) Giving 110%
>12) Being a go-getter
>
>John Craven

What about "having no quit."

Henry

Ron Johnson

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 4:31:22 AM1/18/03

to

On 17 Jan 2003 10:16:53 +0000, Gareth Owen
<use...@gwowen.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) writes:
>
>> 1) hitting for contact
>> 2) hitting for power
>> 3) speed from home plate to 1B
>> 4) stolen bases
>> 5) defensive range
>> 6) throwing accuracy
>> 7) arm strength

Misses strike zone judgement. If that's high enough
(say Max Bishop) it can offset everything else on the
list.

>
>These are all desirable things, but they're not *equally* desirable.

Nicely put.

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 12:43:05 PM1/18/03

to

So, if Selig ends another All-Star game in a tie, will the World Series go
to a neutral city, or will the 4th game be 4 1/2 innings in the AL city and
4 1/2 innings in the NL city ? Coin flip? Or will they do the bat handle
thing?

D.

NLR011

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 1:16:45 PM1/18/03

to

>And you know this how? You don't, because it's nonsense. If it were true
>then Charles Gipson would be "blacklisted."

LOL. You are clueless. Cotto was blacklisted because he was once a member of
the union and then betrayed the union by crossing the picket line. Gipson on
the other hand never was part of the union (still isn't) therefor he has been
given somewhat of a pass. Players don't resent the Charles Gipsons of the
world like they do the Cottos.

charles.beauchamp

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 3:05:08 PM1/18/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030118131645...@mb-mj.aol.com...

Mmm hmmm...thing is we have your word and nothing else to go on this tired
repeated comment. And again, what does it have to do with the player
comparison that brought Cotto into the thread?

v/r Beau

NLR011

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 3:22:12 PM1/18/03

to

>.thing is we have your word and nothing else to go on

The whole Henry Cotto thing is fairly common knowledge. You sure you're a
Mariners fan? The last place I heard it discussed was on the Jeff Nelson Show
w/ Softy on KJR-AM 950. It's not some big secret there, guy.

Michael Cox

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 3:33:43 PM1/18/03

to

In article <3E298ABD...@housing.berkeley.edu>,
robert stephens <rste...@housing.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> > Or, folks can just continue to vote for whoever they want to see in the
> > All-Star Game and stop pretending that it's a ferocious battle between the
> > greatest players in each league and treat it like the pageant of stars
> > that it is.
> >

> Will this change at all if Selig's new plan for the game comes about
> (not the voting, but it being just a pageant)?

It HAS come about.

The All-Star Game is officially no longer "for the fans."

> Anyone have an idea about whether the player's union will sign off on
> the new game plan (pun fully intended)?

Selig will convince them the way he convinces them of everything: he'll
toss 'em some more money.

MC

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hey, it's Griffey! He's naked in the yard again!" - Scott Rolen

Jason Michael Barker

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 4:55:18 PM1/18/03

to

On 18 Jan 2003, NLR011 wrote:

> Cotto was blacklisted because he was once a member of the union and then
> betrayed the union by crossing the picket line.

OK, so when did this happen? A quick Google search on <<"Henry Cotto"
picket>> turns up nothing. He was 20 and hadn't appeared in the majors yet
during the 1981 strike, so it wasn't then. Was it during spring training
in 1995? He didn't even appear in the majors in 1994. And if he's
"blacklisted," then why has he served as a coach in the M's organization?

--
Jason Michael Barker
http://strikethree.com
jmb<at>strikethree<dot>com

NLR011

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 5:33:06 PM1/18/03

to

>OK, so when did this happen?

Spring Training, 1995

>And if he's
>"blacklisted," then why has he served as >a coach in the M's organization?

Luckily for Cotto the players union isn't in charge of hiring minor league
coaches. I would imagine that Ms owners/mgmt harbor no ill feelings toward any
player that helped them out during a work stoppage.

Derek Milhous Zumsteg

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 6:00:53 PM1/18/03

to

Could you please provide proof for this assertion. The only citation I
could turn up was a passing reference to Cotto and replacement ball in
a 3-20-95 Sporting News.

--
Derek Milhous Zumsteg
http://www.zumsteg.net/milhous
Now with.. updates. Real frequent ones, yeah.
"Yay, I'm a llama again!" -- Kuzco

Ivan Weiss

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 7:18:58 PM1/18/03

to

"Derek Milhous Zumsteg" <mil...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:3e2adb97...@news.verizon.net...

> On 18 Jan 2003 22:33:06 GMT, nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:
>
> >>OK, so when did this happen?
> >
> >Spring Training, 1995
> >
> >>And if he's
> >>"blacklisted," then why has he served as >a coach in the M's
organization?
> >
> >Luckily for Cotto the players union isn't in charge of hiring minor
league
> >coaches. I would imagine that Ms owners/mgmt harbor no ill feelings
toward any
> >player that helped them out during a work stoppage.
>
> Could you please provide proof for this assertion. The only citation I
> could turn up was a passing reference to Cotto and replacement ball in
> a 3-20-95 Sporting News.

There's no blacklist anyway. Look at all the scabs who are still active. The
M's carried scab Charles Gipson for years. Just killfile this guy. He's a
troll, and not even a good one.
--
Ivan Weiss
Vashon WA http://www.baseball116.com
Proud to sponsor the Smead Jolley, Zeke Bonura, Dale Alexander,
and Bob Fothergill pages at www.baseball-reference.com

NLR011

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 8:01:15 PM1/18/03

to

>Could you please provide proof for this assertion. The only citation I
>could turn up was a passing reference to Cotto and replacement ball in
>a 3-20-95 Sporting News.

You want proof? LOL.

Who cares?!?!?!?! This is classic! I make an aside comment about Henry
Frickin Cotto and you find some perceived window of opportunity to catch me in
some sort of lie. LOL. Get a life.

Look, I heard it brought up by Jeff Nelson on the Jeff Nelson Show w/ Softy on
KJR. Months ago. He said that players accept a guy like Gipson because they
were never in MLB (or players union) before crossing the picket line so how
could you blame a guy for taking an opportunity to play MLB and running with
it. Otherwise, you will never have that chance again. Nelson went on to
specifically call out Henry Cotto when contrasting what Charles Gipson did to
players such as Cotto who were ALREADY members of the PLAYERS UNION and crossed
the line anyway. They betrayed the union that had done so much for them in the
past. A guy like Gipson had no allegience to any Union because he WASNT IN THE
UNION. Since hearing Nelson discuss it I have also heard NY Vinnie mention it
once on KIRO and just the other day I heard Softy mention it again. So it was
fresh in my mind when i saw whatever you originally posted about Henry friggin
Cotto.

LOL

Why would I lie? LMAO. Henry Friggin Cotto. HAHAHAHA.

Sorry, I dont have "proof for this assertion" LMAO. If your life is so
uneventful that you still feel the need for "proof" then call (206)286.9595
between 10am - 1pm. Ask Softy. Maybe he can fax some certified documents to
assist you in your investigation.

charles.beauchamp

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 8:28:21 PM1/18/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030118152212...@mb-cc.aol.com...

I heard the same Nellie thing last week and the common knowledge isn't
common. It actually has no basis outside of you think it's true. Now,
again, one more time,what does that have to do with the comparitive that
refuted your tools commentary?

v/r Beau

charles.beauchamp

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 8:31:03 PM1/18/03

to

"NLR011" <nlr...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030118200115...@mb-fm.aol.com...

Your a troll. Softy? That's your source? A side statement by Nellie last
week is it? BTW, the word black list was never used. Also....dude...Cotto
didn't appear in the majors that year. Your rediculous. Talk about bad
scouting all you want, you don't know baseball.

v/r Beau

= a m z =

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 8:43:32 PM1/18/03

to

"Derek Milhous Zumsteg" wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2003 22:33:06 GMT, nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:
> >>OK, so when did this happen?
> >
> >Spring Training, 1995
> >
> >>And if he's "blacklisted," then why has he served as
> >>a coach in the M's organization?
> >

> Could you please provide proof for this assertion. The only citation I
> could turn up was a passing reference to Cotto and replacement ball in
> a 3-20-95 Sporting News.

Ack! I hate to defend the troll, but he may not be wrong. Below is a link
to an AP wire story from April 1995:

http://cgi2.nando.net/newsroom/ap/bbo/1995/mlb/mlb/04029558791.html

From the article:

"Players such as Henry Cotto, Junior Ortiz and Darren Reed, who probably
will remain in the major leagues this season, forever tainted themselves in
the eyes of the union by becoming strikebreakers. Many regulars regard them
as traitors. For some pitchers, the uniforms of those players will say, 'Hit
Me.'"

Derek Milhous Zumsteg

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 10:08:03 PM1/18/03

to

On 19 Jan 2003 01:01:15 GMT, nlr...@aol.com (NLR011) wrote:

>>Could you please provide proof for this assertion. The only citation I
>>could turn up was a passing reference to Cotto and replacement ball in
>>a 3-20-95 Sporting News.
>
>You want proof? LOL.

People who want proof are funny?

>Who cares?!?!?!?! This is classic! I make an aside comment about Henry
>Frickin Cotto and you find some perceived window of opportunity to catch me in
>some sort of lie. LOL. Get a life.

Yeah, I'm trying to catch you in a lie, which is

Apparantly it blows your mind that someone, on hearing something like
this about a player, might be interested in finding out whether it's
true, and what the circumstances were.

>Why would I lie? LMAO. Henry Friggin Cotto. HAHAHAHA.

Why would you lie? Um, this is Usenet. There are tons of reasons.

>Sorry, I dont have "proof for this assertion" LMAO. If your life is so
>uneventful that you still feel the need for "proof" then call (206)286.9595
>between 10am - 1pm. Ask Softy. Maybe he can fax some certified documents to
>assist you in your investigation.

Uh huh. Yeah. I'll get right on that. Thanks for not helping.

NLR011

unread,

Jan 18, 2003, 10:39:26 PM1/18/03

to

>Also....dude...Cotto
>didn't appear in the majors that year. Your rediculous.

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 4:09:31 AM1/19/03

to

>Thought so. You have no answer.

answer to what?

Michael Cox

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 4:50:04 AM1/19/03

to

Here's a better one, actually from the spring of '95:

http://tinyurl.com/4m7n

Basically, Cotto, whose career in MLB had ended in '93, worked out with
the White Sox in '95 spring training in hopes of getting one more
paycheck.

IF he was subsequently "blacklisted," it would be tantamount to firing
someone who had already quit. More likely, the "blacklisting" is all in
the heads of reporters and certain low-level "baseball men."

Derek Milhous Zumsteg

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 4:57:17 AM1/19/03

to

On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:50:04 -0800, Michael Cox <v...@cafemichael.com>
wrote:

>Here's a better one, actually from the spring of '95:

Pete Rose Jr. was a scab? I don't remember that. Wow.

Hsberman

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 6:15:12 PM1/19/03

to

>e's a better one, actually from the spring of '95:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/4m7n
>
>Basically, Cotto, whose career in MLB had ended in '93, worked out with
>the White Sox in '95 spring training in hopes of getting one more
>paycheck.
>
>IF he was subsequently "blacklisted," it would be tantamount to firing
>someone who had already quit. More likely, the "blacklisting" is all in
>the heads of reporters and certain low-level "baseball men."

Seems a conspiracy theory is hardly necessary to explain why a 34 year old
player, out of baseball for a year, with a career OBA of .296, was not offered
a position in the majors...

Henry

= a m z =

unread,

Jan 19, 2003, 8:31:35 PM1/19/03

to

Just a thought... perhaps the term "blacklisted" isn't the correct one. In
the article I cited, the problem was replacement players being ostracized by
the returning major leaguers, not management. If they were "blacklisted,"
it was by their fellow players. That would explain Nellie's comments. It
seems, however, that management did leave the replacements twisting in the
wind when all was said and done.