Why fight it?
SJim67
anymore. Rey's hacking style is paying modest dividends. Is there creatine in
that hair dye or something?
I may hate myself in a couple months for saying the following, but my mind is
dizzy from the shock, so what the hell: I hope he starts the All-Star game now.
The sky's the limit. What's next? A Nike commercial with Rey, McGwire, and
Heather Locklear? The mind boggles.
Gordon Gekko
>I may hate myself in a couple months for saying the following, but my mind
is
>dizzy from the shock, so what the hell: I hope he starts the All-Star game
now.
>The sky's the limit. What's next? A Nike commercial with Rey, McGwire, and
>Heather Locklear? The mind boggles.
"Hey. We got a .300 hitter over here!"
--GG
Alice Faber
<sji...@aol.com> wrote:
> Rey Ordonez goes 3 for 4, 3 RBI's and is batting .303. I can't fight fate
> anymore. Rey's hacking style is paying modest dividends. Is there creatine in
> that hair dye or something?
>
> I may hate myself in a couple months for saying the following, but my mind is
> dizzy from the shock, so what the hell: I hope he starts the All-Star game
> now.
> The sky's the limit. What's next? A Nike commercial with Rey, McGwire, and
> Heather Locklear? The mind boggles.
I dunno. He still hasn't hit his annual long ball.
--
AF
fab...@rcn.com
Thejaxs225
>
>--GG
>
I have to pinch myself whenever I say that
RkFast
> But IF he can keep hitting smartly (capitalizing that IF) he'd be
> quite an asset.
Thats the key. I dont think anyone would ever expect Rey to be a big run
producer. But if he can keep his OBP over .300, take pitches and
consistently put the ball in play, then that should satisfy even the
most hardcore Rey-bashers.
Larry Smith
Rey basher and not ready to close my club membership.
But I have to begrudgingly give the little guy some credit. Those
liners to right look good and are actually more timely than many of
Piazza's hits. (Notice that Mike hit into another DP with 1st and 3rd
last nite. The dinger came late with sacks empty).
The BEST play Rey made all nite Tuesday was streaking adeptly from 1st
to 3rd on the dunker to CF.
It's always been easy to root for the team and hope Rey goes away.
But IF he can keep hitting smartly (capitalizing that IF) he'd be
quite an asset.
Larry Smith
******************************************************
"I only wear my glasses for two things:
To drive my car and to find it."
Woody Allen
Richard C. Jones III
: Thats the key. I dont think anyone would ever expect Rey to be a big run
: producer. But if he can keep his OBP over .300, take pitches and
: consistently put the ball in play, then that should satisfy even the
: most hardcore Rey-bashers.
An OBP of .300 is supposed to "satisfy even the most hardcore Rey-bashers"?
I think not.
Rick
Robert Sherry
and Heather >Locklear? The mind boggles.
Chicks dig the big average.
Robert
RkFast
> An OBP of .300 is supposed to "satisfy even the most hardcore Rey-bashers"?
> I think not.
>
> Rick
Well it should. And if it doesn't, then they have unrealistic
expectations of Rey. When players like Ventura, terrific run producers
have OBPs around .360, then Rey having an OBP over .300 should suffice.
Richard C. Jones III
: Well it should. And if it doesn't, then they have unrealistic
: expectations of Rey. When players like Ventura, terrific run producers
: have OBPs around .360, then Rey having an OBP over .300 should suffice.
A .300 OBP sucks. It sucks for everyone, including Rey. That it
represents an improvement over previous years is both undeniable and
frightening. The argument of "unrealistic expectations" just doesn't
cut it. If I played SS for the Mets, I'd be lucky to have an OBP of
.100. But to expect more *of me* would be unrealistic. That doesn't
mean I wouldn't suck.
FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now. But if his OBP
drops 50 points, he'll suck (again).
Rick
RkFast
>
> A .300 OBP sucks. It sucks for everyone, including Rey. That it
> represents an improvement over previous years is both undeniable and
> frightening. The argument of "unrealistic expectations" just doesn't
> cut it. If I played SS for the Mets, I'd be lucky to have an OBP of
> .100. But to expect more *of me* would be unrealistic. That doesn't
> mean I wouldn't suck.
>
> FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
> with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now. But if his OBP
> drops 50 points, he'll suck (again).
>
> Rick
So what you are saying is that Rey must get his OBP equal to some of the
most productive hitters in MLB to even be considered decent???
Thats crap.
Add to that the fact that you think that if his OPS drops a mere 50
points he will go from a good ballplayer to one who "sucks"
More crap.
Hey Rick..if your kids come home with anything less than straight A's on
their report cards, do you beat them???
Barry S. Mandel
13:17:04 -0400:
> FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
>> with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now. But if his OBP
>> drops 50 points, he'll suck (again).
>So what you are saying is that Rey must get his OBP equal to some of the
>most productive hitters in MLB to even be considered decent???
Where the hell did he say anything even remotely like that? A .351
OBA isn't even close to top level; it's barely the league average.
But considering that Ordonez offers nothing else of value offensively
(since he doesn't steal bases and possesses no power whatsoever), he
really does need to maintain at least an average OBA just to be
considered decent.
>Add to that the fact that you think that if his OPS drops a mere 50
>points he will go from a good ballplayer to one who "sucks"
>More crap.
No, that's you misreading again. He said OBA, not OPS. And he's
right: a .301 OBA sucks.
>Hey Rick..if your kids come home with anything less than straight A's on
>their report cards, do you beat them???
I'll bet he doesn't keep making excuses for them every time they fail.
-- BSM
[To reply, please remove "nospam" from E-mail address]
RkFast
"Barry S. Mandel" wrote:
>
> And it was written by RkFast <rkf...@erols.com> on Sat, 26 Jun 1999
> 13:17:04 -0400:
>
> > FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
> >> with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now. But if his OBP
> >> drops 50 points, he'll suck (again).
>
> >So what you are saying is that Rey must get his OBP equal to some of the
> >most productive hitters in MLB to even be considered decent???
>
> Where the hell did he say anything even remotely like that?
He said that if it wasnt, Rey would "suck".
> A .351
> OBA isn't even close to top level; it's barely the league average.
Better bust our yer statbook again Barry. It is VERY close to league
average.
> But considering that Ordonez offers nothing else of value offensively
> (since he doesn't steal bases and possesses no power whatsoever),
He has to steal bases or hit for power to be of any value offensively?
Are you kidding????
>he really does need to maintain at least an average OBA just to be
> considered decent.
No. He needs to maitain an average OBP to be considered decent. Because
that what decent means. Average. You've pretty much just proved my point
that the Rey bashers will not be satified with anything Rey does.
Anything.
> >Add to that the fact that you think that if his OPS drops a mere 50
> >points he will go from a good ballplayer to one who "sucks"
>
> >More crap.
>
> No, that's you misreading again. He said OBA, not OPS. And he's
> right: a .301 OBA sucks.
Where is this OBA coming from???? I think you are the one who is
mis-reading.
> >Hey Rick..if your kids come home with anything less than straight A's on
> >their report cards, do you beat them???
>
> I'll bet he doesn't keep making excuses for them every time they fail.
>
BUT REY IS NOT FAILING!!!! JESUS!!!! His avg. is up to .300. His OBP is
over .350. He is being productive on the basebaths. He has been scoring
runs, putting the ball in play and getting runs in. Be has been bunting
runners over sucessfully. He has been using the entire field. But you
seem to think that this is failure. You Rey bashers seem to think that
in order for Rey to be worth a NICKEL, hes got to hit like Mickey
Mantle. What is it??? Why wont you people give him just a little break
and ADMIT that he HAS IMPROVED hit offense to the point where he cannot
be considered a complete failure, and maybe he cannot be considered such
a liability. Is it that you are afraid that you may have to actually
concede that you were wrong about Rey??? Thats got to be it, becuase
I've never seen people hold a ball player to such a high standard.
Especially one who was never held to a high standard to begin with.
Richard C. Jones III
: > >So what you are saying is that Rey must get his OBP equal to some of the
: > >most productive hitters in MLB to even be considered decent???
: >
: > Where the hell did he say anything even remotely like that?
: He said that if it wasnt, Rey would "suck".
I said that a .301 OBP sucks. It does, especially from someone who doesn't
have anything else to offer. .351 is decent; .301 sucks.
: > A .351
: > OBA isn't even close to top level; it's barely the league average.
: Better bust our yer statbook again Barry. It is VERY close to league
: average.
Look, I said (though Barry didn't) that I was satisifed with Rey's
production this year. That does NOT mean that if it falls away
considerably (from .351 to .300) I'll still be satisfied. A 50
point drop isn't "mere" in my book. I'm willing to grant that this year--
and this year only--Rey is at roughly the league average in OBP, and
at roughly the league average in OPS for SS. That's perfectly acceptable,
as far as I'm concerned. But to crow over someone who is "VERY close
to league average" in a single offensive category is a little
monomanaical, don't you think?
: > But considering that Ordonez offers nothing else of value offensively
: > (since he doesn't steal bases and possesses no power whatsoever),
: He has to steal bases or hit for power to be of any value offensively?
: Are you kidding????
If he's only average (or a little less) on OBP, yes.
: >he really does need to maintain at least an average OBA just to be
: > considered decent.
: No. He needs to maitain an average OBP to be considered decent.
And this is different from what Barry said, how?
: Because
: that what decent means. Average. You've pretty much just proved my point
: that the Rey bashers will not be satified with anything Rey does.
: Anything.
On the contrary. I've already said that I'm satisfied with his current
production. I realize this doesn't play to your paranoid fantasies, but
if he finishes the season at .700 OPS, which is considerably below league
average, I'll be satisfied. Of course, by saying that, I may lose
my membership in Rey-Bashers United, and have to turn in my secret
decoder ring.
: > >Add to that the fact that you think that if his OPS drops a mere 50
: > >points he will go from a good ballplayer to one who "sucks"
: >
: > >More crap.
: >
: > No, that's you misreading again. He said OBA, not OPS. And he's
: > right: a .301 OBA sucks.
: Where is this OBA coming from???? I think you are the one who is
: mis-reading.
I said OBP. OBP=OBA. OPS is different.
: > >Hey Rick..if your kids come home with anything less than straight A's on
: > >their report cards, do you beat them???
: > I'll bet he doesn't keep making excuses for them every time they fail.
I don't have kids, so I have to beat up the neighbors'.
: BUT REY IS NOT FAILING!!!! JESUS!!!! His avg. is up to .300. His OBP is
: over .350. He is being productive on the basebaths. He has been scoring
: runs, putting the ball in play and getting runs in. Be has been bunting
: runners over sucessfully. He has been using the entire field. But you
: seem to think that this is failure. You Rey bashers seem to think that
: in order for Rey to be worth a NICKEL, hes got to hit like Mickey
: Mantle.
I'd settle for Bob Bailor.
What is it??? Why wont you people give him just a little break
: and ADMIT that he HAS IMPROVED hit offense to the point where he cannot
: be considered a complete failure, and maybe he cannot be considered such
: a liability. Is it that you are afraid that you may have to actually
: concede that you were wrong about Rey??? Thats got to be it, becuase
: I've never seen people hold a ball player to such a high standard.
: Especially one who was never held to a high standard to begin with.
He is but wasn't held to a standard? Huh? For the response to the
rest of the argument, see above. Rey is now up to an almost average
offensive year. If he keeps it up. Perhaps he has improved. It's been
known to happen. Perhaps he's simply hot right now--it's been less than
half a season, after all. Rey's history suggests caution ought to be
employed before getting too excited. I truly hope such prudence will prove
to have been unnecessary. And I confess that being almost average and "not
a complete failure" in a career year falls somewhat short of the rather
grandiose claims being made for Ordonez's place in the annals of the game.
I'm predicting Rey for first-round induction into the Hall of Not Infamy.
Rick
Barry S. Mandel
>"Barry S. Mandel" wrote:
>>
>> And it was written by RkFast <rkf...@erols.com> on Sat, 26 Jun 1999
>> 13:17:04 -0400:
>> > FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
>> >> with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now. But if his OBP
>> >> drops 50 points, he'll suck (again).
>> >So what you are saying is that Rey must get his OBP equal to some of the
>> >most productive hitters in MLB to even be considered decent???
>> Where the hell did he say anything even remotely like that?
>He said that if it wasnt, Rey would "suck".
Wrong. He said that if Rey's OBA dropped 50 points from where it is
now, Rey would suck once again. And he's right, since that would
put Ordonez right back at the same level of crappitude he was before
this hot streak.
>> A .351
>> OBA isn't even close to top level; it's barely the league average.
>Better bust our yer statbook again Barry. It is VERY close to league
>average.
Geez, Richard, why don't you trying reading the posts before you start
ranting? If I say .351 is "barely the league average", how is that
different than your saying it's "VERY close to league average?"
Answer: it isn't. The league average OBA is .345. Rey has, for
the moment, surpassed that figure -- barely.
>> But considering that Ordonez offers nothing else of value offensively
>> (since he doesn't steal bases and possesses no power whatsoever),
>He has to steal bases or hit for power to be of any value offensively?
He has to do something. If he doesn't do either of those things
_and_ fails to get on base, what is he contributing offensively?
>Are you kidding????
No, I'm perfectly serious. A player who doesn't steal bases and
doesn't hit for power is absolutely worthless offensively if he
doesn't get on base. Up until this year, that's been a perfect
description of Rey Ordonez.
Now pay attention. It's unlikely that Rey will ever develop into a
power hitter, and he's not going to get any quicker as he gets older.
That means the only way he can really contribute anything offensively
is if he gets on base, which means he'll need to maintain his OBA at
its current level. If he can, that's great, but there's nothing in
his previous track record to suggest that's likely to happen.
>>he really does need to maintain at least an average OBA just to be
>> considered decent.
>No. He needs to maitain an average OBP to be considered decent.
And how is that different from what I just said? OBA and OBP are the
same thing. OBA just happens to be the terminology I grew up with.
And "at least an average OBA" clearly includes "an average OBA."
>Because that what decent means. Average. You've pretty much just proved my point
>that the Rey bashers will not be satified with anything Rey does.
>Anything.
The only point you're proving thus far is that you're so trigger-happy
in your knee-jerk efforts to defend Ordonez that you're not even
reading the posts you're responding to.
>> >Add to that the fact that you think that if his OPS drops a mere 50
>> >points he will go from a good ballplayer to one who "sucks"
>> >More crap.
>> No, that's you misreading again. He said OBA, not OPS. And he's
>> right: a .301 OBA sucks.
>Where is this OBA coming from???? I think you are the one who is
>mis-reading.
OBA = OBP. And it's coming from Rick's post, the one that you were
criticizing. I guess you didn't read that one either. He said that
if Rey's OBA (or OBP, if you prefer) were to drop 50 points, he'd suck
once again. Since a 50 point drop from his current OBA of .351 would
bring him down to .301, what Rick is saying, in essence, is that a
..301 OBA would suck.
Understand now, or do you need pictures?
>> >Hey Rick..if your kids come home with anything less than straight A's on
>> >their report cards, do you beat them???
>>
>> I'll bet he doesn't keep making excuses for them every time they fail.
>>
>BUT REY IS NOT FAILING!!!! His average is up to blah blah blah...
[rant snipped]
Now, now, don't get your panties in a bunch. Nobody said
he's failing right now. I'd personally be thrilled if he could
maintain this kind of productivity over a full season. For the first
time, he's actually producing like a major league shortstop. All
Rick said is that he'd be failing if he reverted back to his usual
form. And he's right. My own "failure" remark was addressed at
those people who somehow believe that Rey Ordonez is entitled to a
free pass on offense ("If he hits, it's a bonus") , or that normal
standards of productivity don't apply to him ("he's only out there
for his defense").
Phikap176
>now, Rey would suck once again. And he's right, since that would
>put Ordonez right back at the same level of crappitude he was before
>this hot streak.
Which made him a crappy hitter but not a crappy player. In the past month he's
been excellent, but if and when he reverts back to his old crappy hitting ways
he'll be around average again.
Also you are correct in saying .351 is barely above the the league average OBP
of .345. Rey doesn't have to really approach the average because of his
defense. It's great that he's done that so far. In order to find out how much
he's really hurting the team. Compare him to the OBP of the 8th hitter on each
NL team. To blame an 8 hitter for not hitting as well as the average player in
baseball is unfair. Even if Rey isn't far off from the average production of
the 8 hitter it isn't THAT bad because other teams aren't getting much more
from the 8 spot and Ordonez's greatest asset is his defense. On top of that
the worst production of an 8 hitter's difference from the average of the other
8 hitters won't be close to the same loss as weak spots in the heart of the
order.
>Now, now, don't get your panties in a bunch.
I love the brilliant 15 year-old insults. They really strenghten arguments.
Barry S. Mandel
21:37:42 GMT:
>>Wrong. He said that if Rey's OBA dropped 50 points from where it is
>>now, Rey would suck once again. And he's right, since that would
>>put Ordonez right back at the same level of crappitude he was before
>>this hot streak.
>
>Which made him a crappy hitter but not a crappy player.
Geez, will you give it a rest already? This thread is about his
_offense_. If you have to post your usual apologist crap, at least
do it on an appropriate thread.
RkFast
twisting words and throwing condescending remarks around than you do
arguing a point. Im in no mood to have this decline to a flame war, and
its going that way (Im trying to stay out of that business).
Im more convinced than ever that you wont ever give Rey credit because
you admitting you are wrong is just a little too damaging to your ego.
Throw all the stats around and try to twist words to fit your needs all
you want. Bottom line....Rey is NOT a liability from an offensive
standpoint anymore.
"Barry S. Mandel" wrote:
>
> And it was written by RkFast <rkf...@erols.com> on Sat, 26 Jun 1999
> 14:30:54 -0400:
>
> >"Barry S. Mandel" wrote:
> >>
> >> And it was written by RkFast <rkf...@erols.com> on Sat, 26 Jun 1999
> >> 13:17:04 -0400:
>
> >> > FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
> >> >> with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now. But if his OBP
> >> >> drops 50 points, he'll suck (again).
>
> >> >So what you are saying is that Rey must get his OBP equal to some of the
> >> >most productive hitters in MLB to even be considered decent???
>
> >> Where the hell did he say anything even remotely like that?
>
> >He said that if it wasnt, Rey would "suck".
>
> Wrong. He said that if Rey's OBA dropped 50 points from where it is
> now, Rey would suck once again. And he's right, since that would
> put Ordonez right back at the same level of crappitude he was before
> this hot streak.
>
Phikap176
I think I should follow your lead. People are tired of my repetitive threads
defending Rey and I'm tired of repeating myself and getting things twisted or
focusing on other things. I'm also tired of the egos of some people who resort
to immature insults.
This is like the 10th time I said I'd give up.
David Marc Nieporent
>Barry, Id love to argue this point some more, but I see you get off on
>twisting words and throwing condescending remarks around than you do
>arguing a point. Im in no mood to have this decline to a flame war, and
>its going that way (Im trying to stay out of that business).
>Im more convinced than ever that you wont ever give Rey credit because
>you admitting you are wrong is just a little too damaging to your ego.
>Throw all the stats around and try to twist words to fit your needs all
>you want. Bottom line....Rey is NOT a liability from an offensive
>standpoint anymore.
Bottom line... Barry's exactly right: you're not even reading the posts
you respond to.
Stop. Shut up. Don't post. Go back and _read_ the post you're ranting
about. The one you couldn't even bother to snip, I mean, despite not
responding to it.
Which part of "He'll suck again IF HIS OBP FALLS 50 POINTS" are you having
trouble understanding?
Right now, he has a ~730 OPS. That's acceptable. If he reverts to his
career levels, he's a huge offensive liability.
Why are you ranting and raving about those statements, which is what Barry
has said? Where do you see "not giving Rey credit?"
--
David M. Nieporent "Mr. Simpson, don't you worry. I
niep...@alumni.princeton.edu watched Matlock in a bar last night.
3L - St. John's School of Law The sound wasn't on, but I think I
Roberto Petagine Appreciation Society got the gist of it." -- L. Hutz
David Marc Nieporent
>"Richard C. Jones III" wrote:
>> Rey-bashers"? I think not.
>Well it should. And if it doesn't, then they have unrealistic
>expectations of Rey.
Expecting him to hit better than a pitcher is "unrealistic?" You said it;
I didn't.
>When players like Ventura, terrific run producers
>have OBPs around .360, then Rey having an OBP over .300 should suffice.
Hello! Ventura has *multiple* skills. If Ventura's only skill was a .360
OBP, he wouldn't be a terrific run producer either. Ventura has *power.*
When Ordonez slugs .500, then the comparison will make sense.
Barry S. Mandel
>Barry, Id love to argue this point some more,
Does that mean you've already started? I can't tell.
>but I see you get off on
>twisting words and throwing condescending remarks around than you do
>arguing a point. Im in no mood to have this decline to a flame war, and
>its going that way (Im trying to stay out of that business).
In other words, now that Richard realizes that he misread the
other posts in this thread, he has no answer for any of the points
I've raised, and that retreat is clearly his best option. Good move.
>Im more convinced than ever that you wont ever give Rey credit because
>you admitting you are wrong is just a little too damaging to your ego.
That's funny, considering that in the spring of 1997, I was arguing
that Ordonez deserved a chance to improve on his rookie production.
Yeah, clearly this is all about _my_ ego and _my_ inflexibility.
>Throw all the stats around and try to twist words to fit your needs all
>you want.
The only person twisting words around is Richard, which he
seemingly does whenever an actual post doesn't fit the argument
he apparently wants to have.
>Bottom line....Rey is NOT a liability from an offensive
>standpoint anymore.
And since it should abundantly clear to anyone who's actually reading
this thread that neither Rick nor I are contending otherwise, provided
Ordonez maintains his current averages, this is just more empty
breast-beating by a guy with absolutely nothing to say.
Toodles, Dick.
Not a Chance
Nieporent) wrote:
>In <3774D4AB...@erols.com>, RkFast <rkf...@erols.com> claimed:
>>"Richard C. Jones III" wrote:
>
>>> An OBP of .300 is supposed to "satisfy even the most hardcore
>>> Rey-bashers"? I think not.
>
>>Well it should. And if it doesn't, then they have unrealistic
>>expectations of Rey.
>
>Hello! Ventura has *multiple* skills. If Ventura's only skill was a .360
>OBP, he wouldn't be a terrific run producer either. Ventura has *power.*
>When Ordonez slugs .500, then the comparison will make sense.
So Rey's batting over .300 and his extraordinary defense are not
enough. I guess nothing short of Ernie Banks is going to please some
people.
Richard C. Jones III
: So Rey's batting over .300 and his extraordinary defense are not
: enough. I guess nothing short of Ernie Banks is going to please some
: people.
Once more. S*l*o*w*l*y. Batting over .300 still puts Rey only at about
the league average in terms of OBP, and he's still well below average in
SLG, so he's still a below-average hitter. *No one* on this thread has
suggested that they're particularly unhappy with his current production.
The thread started when Richard made the profoundly inane statement that
"even Rey-bashers" should be satisfied with an OBP of .300. Any way you
slice it, an OBP of .300 is terrible. An OBP of .350, where Rey is now,
is average. An OPS of .725, where Rey is now, is below average but
nowhere near as bad as his career numbers (he's never had a season over
.600: that's off-the-scale appalling).
If you want to rejoice that Rey this year is all the way up to below
average offensively, fine, I do too. But the distance between Rey's
offensive number numbers and Ernie Banks's is roughly the distance between
Dan Quayle and a Nobel Prize in Physics.
*No one* here is complaining about the present. Many fear, based on
past performance, that it won't last.
Oh, and this thread is exclusively about offense. FWIW, he's having his
best defensive year this year, too, and *almost* deserves the hype.
Rick
RkFast
>
>
> So Rey's batting over .300 and his extraordinary defense are not
> enough. I guess nothing short of Ernie Banks is going to please some
> people.
Thats exactly right. For some reason, there are a few in this NG that
will not be satisfied until Rey is a five tool player. Im convinced that
if Rey turned into a 40 HR hitter, these people would be blasting him
for striking out too much.
I wonder if these people have stopped to notice that Rey is anchoring
the undisputed best infield in baseball, defensively.
Richard C. Jones III
: Thats exactly right. For some reason, there are a few in this NG that
: will not be satisfied until Rey is a five tool player. Im convinced that
: if Rey turned into a 40 HR hitter, these people would be blasting him
: for striking out too much.
Name one person who has said anything remotely close to this.
: I wonder if these people have stopped to notice that Rey is anchoring
: the undisputed best infield in baseball, defensively.
Arguably the best, yes. "Undisputed?" I think there are some folks in
Cleveland who might disagree.
Rick
RkFast
> Oh, and this thread is exclusively about offense. FWIW, he's having his
> best defensive year this year, too, and *almost* deserves the hype.
I sure as hell hope you mean hype regarding the total Rey package and
not just his defense. If you are only referring to his defense with the
above statement, then that is living proof that Rey will never get ANY
credit from you bashers.
Saying Rey "almost" deserves the hype he gets for his defensive play is
like saying Frank Sinatra is "almost" dead or the sun will "almost" rise
today.
RkFast
"Richard C. Jones III" wrote:
>
> RkFast (rkf...@erols.com) wrote:
>
> : Thats exactly right. For some reason, there are a few in this NG that
> : will not be satisfied until Rey is a five tool player. Im convinced that
> : if Rey turned into a 40 HR hitter, these people would be blasting him
> : for striking out too much.
>
> Name one person who has said anything remotely close to this.
Oh please. You people have said it 1,000,000 times. Jesus, the fact that
Rey has completely turned the corner offensively, and you people are
still like "so what, he STILL sucks" is saying EXACTLY that no matter
what he does you will still bash him.
> : I wonder if these people have stopped to notice that Rey is anchoring
> : the undisputed best infield in baseball, defensively.
>
> Arguably the best, yes. "Undisputed?" I think there are some folks in
> Cleveland who might disagree.
Arguably, my ass. The New York Mets are rated #1 defensively in MLB.
BEST INFIELD IN BASEBALL. Take that to Cleveland.
Barry S. Mandel
12:33:05 -0400:
>Oh please. You people have said it 1,000,000 times.
No. Nobody has said that _ever_, except for you and a few dishonest
Rey-boosters.
> Jesus, the fact that
>Rey has completely turned the corner offensively, and you people are
>still like "so what, he STILL sucks" is saying EXACTLY that no matter
>what he does you will still bash him.
Richard, you're either an illiterate or a liar, or quite possibly
both. Here's a quote from Rick Jones' first post:
:: FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
:: with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now.
Here's a quote from my post:
:: Nobody said he's failing right now. I'd personally be thrilled if he could
:: maintain this kind of productivity over a full season.
Here's a quote from Dave Nieporent's post:
:: Right now, he has a ~730 OPS. That's acceptable.
Did you read any of these posts? Do you understand word words like
"acceptable" and "satisfied" mean? Do you understand that not one of
us has said anything remotely like what you're attributing to us? Do
you ever listen to anything or anybody other than the sound of your
own shrill, Rey-worshipping voice?
Barry S. Mandel
1999 12:22:48 GMT:
>So Rey's batting over .300 and his extraordinary defense are not
>enough. I guess nothing short of Ernie Banks is going to please some
>people.
Does anybody bother to read before they respond anymore?
(1) This thread is solely about Rey's offense, not his defense or his
perceived overall value.
(2) Nobody has expressed any unhappiness with his current production.
People have properly pointed out that his current hot streak has
finally brought his production numbers up to league average, which is
as much as anyone dares to hope for him. I can't speak for anyone
else, but I think most of the anti-Rey contingent would have no great
problem with Ordonez if he could maintain his current averages. The
problem is that there's nothing in his career track record to suggest
that he can.
(3) No one wants or expects him to be Ernie Banks. This is a tired
and annoying analogy that's raised _solely_ by Rey-boosters to distort
the parameters of the argument. All the critics want is for Ordonez
to hit like a major leaguer. Forget about Alex Rodriguez; I'd just
like to see him top Desi Relaford's OPS this season.
Richard C. Jones III
: Oh please. You people have said it 1,000,000 times. Jesus, the fact that
: Rey has completely turned the corner offensively, and you people are
: still like "so what, he STILL sucks" is saying EXACTLY that no matter
: what he does you will still bash him.
I repeat: who has said that? I haven't. David hasn't. Barry hasn't.
Who has? Saying that *if* he reverts to previous form, he'll suck
*on offense*, or that he's still a *below average* offensive player falls
well short of what you're attributing to us.
: > : I wonder if these people have stopped to notice that Rey is anchoring
: > : the undisputed best infield in baseball, defensively.
: >
: > Arguably the best, yes. "Undisputed?" I think there are some folks in
: > Cleveland who might disagree.
: Arguably, my ass. The New York Mets are rated #1 defensively in MLB.
: BEST INFIELD IN BASEBALL. Take that to Cleveland.
By what standard? The voices in your head? Look. The Mets have an
excellent defensive infield. No one says otherwise. Ordonez is a big
part of that. No one says otherwise. But the same could be said for
Cleveland, which has perennial GG winners up the middle and under-rated
players at the corners. It's a judgment call. I'd probably take the
Mets this year, the Indians on a career basis. But it's a decision, not a
foregone conclusion just because you like Ordonez.
Rick
who has finally attained the coveted status of "you people"
David Marc Nieporent
Not a Chance <No...@never.com> claimed:
>niep...@shell.monmouth.com (David Marc Nieporent) wrote:
>>In <3774D4AB...@erols.com>, RkFast <rkf...@erols.com> claimed:
>>>> Rey-bashers"? I think not.
>>>Well it should. And if it doesn't, then they have unrealistic
>>>expectations of Rey.
>>Hello! Ventura has *multiple* skills. If Ventura's only skill was a .360
>>OBP, he wouldn't be a terrific run producer either. Ventura has *power.*
>>When Ordonez slugs .500, then the comparison will make sense.
>So Rey's batting over .300 and his extraordinary defense are not
>enough.
Correct. Batting .300 is not enough. Batting average is a poro measure
of offensive value.
Now, a .350 OBP and extraordinary defense would be enough.
>I guess nothing short of Ernie Banks is going to please some
>people.
Look, you lying asshole, stop putting words in my mouth. He doesn't have
to be Banks, A-Rod, or anything like that. He has to be better than
people like Disarcina and Clayton and Meares and such.
When he can put up a .700 OPS for a season, then we'll talk.
David Marc Nieporent
>Not a Chance wrote:
>> So Rey's batting over .300 and his extraordinary defense are not
>> people.
>Thats exactly right. For some reason, there are a few in this NG that
>will not be satisfied until Rey is a five tool player. Im convinced that
>if Rey turned into a 40 HR hitter, these people would be blasting him
>for striking out too much.
I'm convinced you're a pathetic lying asshole. There are many in this
newsgroup that will not be satisfied until Rey can hit better than the
worst players in baseball. That's the standard, not "a five tool player."
>I wonder if these people have stopped to notice that Rey is anchoring
>the undisputed best infield in baseball, defensively.
I'm sure Cleveland fans would be happy to dispute it.
David Marc Nieporent
>"Richard C. Jones III" wrote:
>> : Thats exactly right. For some reason, there are a few in this NG that
>> : will not be satisfied until Rey is a five tool player. Im convinced that
>> : if Rey turned into a 40 HR hitter, these people would be blasting him
>> : for striking out too much.
>Oh please. You people have said it 1,000,000 times. Jesus, the fact that
>Rey has completely turned the corner offensively, and you people are
>still like "so what, he STILL sucks" is saying EXACTLY that no matter
>what he does you will still bash him.
The problem is that you're a liar. Nobody has said it even once.
I don't believe he has turned the corner offensively. I think he's just
having a fluky hot streak. If he finishes the season at this level,
nobody will be saying he sucks.
>> : I wonder if these people have stopped to notice that Rey is anchoring
>> : the undisputed best infield in baseball, defensively.
>> Arguably the best, yes. "Undisputed?" I think there are some folks in
>> Cleveland who might disagree.
>Arguably, my ass. The New York Mets are rated #1 defensively in MLB.
>BEST INFIELD IN BASEBALL. Take that to Cleveland.
What the hell's this passive voice crap? What do you mean they "are
rated" #1? Who's doing this rating? What are they basing this on?
David Marc Nieporent
Or more like saying that Rey "almost" fields as many balls as other
shortstops.
You really need to get out more. Watch other baseball games. You'll see
other shortstops make highlight plays, too.
Jason Robert Gische
ever seen. You managed to misinterpret almost every point that Barry
made. Congratulations.
In article <37751C5E...@erols.com>, RkFast <rkf...@erols.com> wrote:
>"Barry S. Mandel" wrote:
>> And it was written by RkFast <rkf...@erols.com>:
>> >> FWIW, Rey's current OBP is .351. I said last year that I'd be satisfied
>> >> with a .700 OPS. He has that now; I'm satisfied now. But if his OBP
>> >> drops 50 points, he'll suck (again).
>>
>> >So what you are saying is that Rey must get his OBP equal to some of the
>> >most productive hitters in MLB to even be considered decent???
>>
>> Where the hell did he say anything even remotely like that?
>> A .351
>> OBA isn't even close to top level; it's barely the league average.
>
>Better bust our yer statbook again Barry. It is VERY close to league
>average.
That's what he said. "it's barely the league average."
>> But considering that Ordonez offers nothing else of value offensively
>> (since he doesn't steal bases and possesses no power whatsoever),
>
>He has to steal bases or hit for power to be of any value offensively?
>Are you kidding????
Did you miss the word "else?" Right now, Rey's ~.350 OBA is his
offensive value.
>>he really does need to maintain at least an average OBA just to be
>>considered decent.
>
>No. He needs to maitain an average OBP to be considered decent.
What do you mean, "No"? That's exactly what Barry wrote. Since
Rey has no power and doesn't steal any bases his entire offensive
value is his OBA.
>Because
>that what decent means. Average. You've pretty much just proved my point
What point? All you've done so far is state that you disagree with
Barry, then restated what he wrote as if it were something different.
>that the Rey bashers will not be satified with anything Rey does.
>Anything.
Hello? Did you miss the original post that you replied to? Check
the first three quotes lines of this message, where the other Richard
(I believe - someone deleted that attribution) says that Rey with a
700 OPS is acceptable. He even says that he's "satisifed" with that
production, so you can't use any sematic arguments either..
>> >Add to that the fact that you think that if his OPS drops a mere 50
>> >points he will go from a good ballplayer to one who "sucks"
>>
>> >More crap.
>>
>> No, that's you misreading again. He said OBA, not OPS. And he's
>> right: a .301 OBA sucks.
>
>Where is this OBA coming from???? I think you are the one who is
>mis-reading.
Since he talked about a .300 OBA, it was clear he meant a 50 point drop
in OBA. Hell, it was *your* ridiculous argument that a .300 OBA from
Ordonez was supposed to be good enough that spurred his post.
>> >Hey Rick..if your kids come home with anything less than straight A's on
>> >their report cards, do you beat them???
>>
>> I'll bet he doesn't keep making excuses for them every time they fail.
>>
>BUT REY IS NOT FAILING!!!!
Not today. What about the past few years of his career where his complete
suckitude was accepted with weak excuses?
>JESUS!!!! His avg. is up to .300. His OBP is
>over .350. He is being productive on the basebaths. He has been scoring
>runs, putting the ball in play and getting runs in. Be has been bunting
>runners over sucessfully. He has been using the entire field.
No one denies this. Stop reading what you think we're writing, and
pay attention. Rey is being pretty damn productive right now. Can
he keep it up? That's the million dollar question. Personally, I
don't think he can. He's had too many years of mind-numbingly bad
performance for me to believe he's improved this much. But if he has,
I'll be thrilled.
>But you seem to think that this is failure.
Liar. Find me an example where someone said that Rey's current
preformance level is considered a failure. And no, Volkner doesn't
count.
>You Rey bashers seem to think that
>in order for Rey to be worth a NICKEL, hes got to hit like Mickey
>Mantle.
Liar. Anyway, I thought you guys got together and decided that
the comparison was supposed to be with ARod? At least keep your
lies straight. Otherwise, you start to sound like Hershfield.
>What is it??? Why wont you people give him just a little break
>and ADMIT that he HAS IMPROVED hit offense to the point where he cannot
>be considered a complete failure, and maybe he cannot be considered such
>a liability.
We have. I've seen many posts of that type over the past month.
>Is it that you are afraid that you may have to actually
>concede that you were wrong about Rey???
Who was wrong about Rey? Rey sucked beyond belief for the past three
years. Even if his sudden improvement is real, and he becomes a
useful player for the rest of his career, the fact remains that he
was among the worst regular position players in baseball for three
years. Why wasn't he in AAA for some of that time instead of costing
the big league team?
>Thats got to be it, becuase
>I've never seen people hold a ball player to such a high standard.
ROTFL. You Rey apologists kill me. The highest standard I've
EVER seen Rey held to by one of his detrators is that he should have
a 700 OPS. You do realize that this is a mediocre offensive performance,
don't you? Or has Rey's horrific career redefined what level of offense
you'll consider average?
>Especially one who was never held to a high standard to begin with.
Rey was never held to *any* standard, apparently. I've yet to see a
single justification for his initial promotion to the big league team.
He never hit anywhere. No one gets promoted to the bigs with as poor
a minor league record as Rey had, unless there was a serious injury
that needed a temporary replacement. The Mets *moved* other players
to make room for Rey. I don't care if he becomes a superstar in the
coming years, it was stupid to have him in the majors for the past
three seasons. He should've been learning to hit in AAA.
--
Jason Gische
gis...@cs.stanford.edu
Jason Robert Gische
>"Richard C. Jones III" wrote:
>> RkFast (rkf...@erols.com) wrote:
>> : Thats exactly right. For some reason, there are a few in this NG that
>> : will not be satisfied until Rey is a five tool player. Im convinced that
>> : if Rey turned into a 40 HR hitter, these people would be blasting him
>> : for striking out too much.
>>
>> Name one person who has said anything remotely close to this.
>
>Oh please. You people have said it 1,000,000 times.
Bullshit. What we want is something close to the average production
of the league's SSs. For some reason, this seems to be an unreasonable
desire to you Rey lovers, and it also seems to equate to "has to be
as good as ARod," "has to hit like Mantle," and "has to be a five
tool player" whenever you recognize how absurdly weak your defense
of him is.
>Jesus, the fact that
>Rey has completely turned the corner offensively,
"Completely turned the corner?" I'll fully grant that Rey has been
worlds better than ever before as an offensive force. OTOH, he's
still not that impressive with the bat, and we're also a long way
from knowing whether this is a real improvement or merely a hot
streak. Rey once hit .350 for a while, too.
>and you people are
>still like "so what, he STILL sucks" is saying EXACTLY that no matter
>what he does you will still bash him.
It would, if it were even remotely true.
Are you a liar, or are you just not reading anything that anyone
is writing? I've seen at least four people post in the past two
days that Rey's current production levels make him a decent
player (myself, Barry, Richard, and David.)
>> : I wonder if these people have stopped to notice that Rey is anchoring
>> : the undisputed best infield in baseball, defensively.
>>
>> Arguably the best, yes. "Undisputed?" I think there are some folks in
>> Cleveland who might disagree.
>
>Arguably, my ass. The New York Mets are rated #1 defensively in MLB.
>BEST INFIELD IN BASEBALL. Take that to Cleveland.
What does that have to do with the defensive ability of a single player?
The only thing Rey does better than Vizquel is get on SportsCenter.
--
Jason Gische
gis...@cs.stanford.edu