Hillenbrand?
Matt
him, so he might be available cheap.
In 296 AB: .301/.342/.480, 12 HR, 39 RBI
He'd look damn nice at 3B.
Matt
brink
"Matt" <Aces...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153372366.6...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
A few things:
1) Nick Punto has been dang good at 3B this season. Doesn't have
Hillenbrand's pop but the .400 OBP mitigates that I'd say. Nothing wrong
with Punto's glove or salary, either while Hillenbrand's glove *is*
questionable and he's making $5.8M to Punto's $700K. Hillenbrand is 30,
Nick is 28. Punto is clearly having not only a career season but a *dream*
season so long-term Hillenbrand is probably the better option just looking
at straight hitting production. But...
2) There has to have been some big trouble brewing for the Blue Jays to DFA
a DH/1B/3B who was hitting well this season while in the middle of a tight
division/wild card race. THAT should be a major red flag.
3) The line for Hillenbrand will be sizeable. I don't know what the Jays
are looking for but the Twins would likely need to deal pitching (which they
can afford), but...
4) ...do the Twins want to help the Jays, whom they are fighting with for
the WC? Don't get me wrong, if the trade is good enough I'd be fine with
the Twins dealing with the White Sox, but conventional wisdom says not to
deal within your division or with your closest competitors.
Just some thoughts. I don't think he's a great fit for the Twins but might
be an ideal rent-a-player if the Twins *really* think they have a chance at
making the playoffs.
brink
Matt
brink wrote:
>
> 1) Nick Punto has been dang good at 3B this season.
Indeed he has. He's playing way over his head, and I'm enjoying it.
That being said, you don't pass up a chance at a bona fide upgrade
because it'll cost Nick Punto playing time. You just don't.
Secondly, Adding Hillenbrand doesn't get Punto out of the lineup. He's
still going to see some time in the OF until Hunter is well, and
perhaps after. He can still play some 3B, and can spot both Bartlett
and Castillo in the middle infield. And when he's not on the field,
he'd be a valuable bat off of the bench.
> 2) There has to have been some big trouble brewing for the Blue Jays to DFA
> a DH/1B/3B who was hitting well this season while in the middle of a tight
> division/wild card race. THAT should be a major red flag.
Indeed. But that's exactly the tag that might make a trade for him
affordable.
> 3) The line for Hillenbrand will be sizeable.
That will depend on the market. The clock is ticking, and Toronto has
10 days to trade him or release him outright.
> 4) ...do the Twins want to help the Jays, whom they are fighting with for
> the WC?
I doubt the Twins are overly worried about the Jays. They need to play
well enough to overtake BOTH the Sox and the Yankees (or Red Sox). If
they can do that, the Toronto problem likely takes care of itself.
Secondly, how much we'd be helping them really is up for debate. Having
designated Hillenbrand, they've really robbed themselves of a lot of
bargaining power.
> Just some thoughts. I don't think he's a great fit for the Twins but might
> be an ideal rent-a-player if the Twins *really* think they have a chance at
> making the playoffs.
At 5 games out, playing the way they're playing, I think they HAVE to
be thinking that.
Matt
brink
>
> brink wrote:
>>
>> 1) Nick Punto has been dang good at 3B this season.
>
> Indeed he has. He's playing way over his head, and I'm enjoying it.
> That being said, you don't pass up a chance at a bona fide upgrade
> because it'll cost Nick Punto playing time. You just don't.
OK, because I thought this idea smelled a bit I went and looked up some info
on Hillenbrand.
He hasn't played much at 3B because apparently his fielding stinks there
anymore. The vast majority of his games have been as a 1B/DH.
Platooning the RH-hitting Hillenbrand for Morneau at 1B would be lunacy.
The Twins *could* use the help at DH I suppose, especially because of
Kubel's gimpy knees and the fact that Shea is a righty while Kubel is a
lefty. .337/.394/.530 vs. left-handed pitching would be a *nice* asset.
.286/.320/.460 vs. righthanders ain't bad.
Honestly though, since he can't play 3B effectively and shouldn't play 1B,
why not go get Matt LeCroy if the Twins are looking for RH power-hitting
platoon DH help? He's cheaper, *not* a clubhouse cancer malcontent -- quite
the opposite from what I understand, and could serve as emergency catcher
for what that's worth (not much).
LeCroy has *always* mashed left-handed pitching (and specifically he *owns*
Buehrle -- think that might come in handy?). The Nationals were using him
mainly as a PH so he only has 67 ABs this season. His numbers didn't look
great but he was put in a tough spot in the NL with his (lack of) fielding
skills.
>
> Secondly, Adding Hillenbrand doesn't get Punto out of the lineup. He's
> still going to see some time in the OF until Hunter is well, and
> perhaps after. He can still play some 3B, and can spot both Bartlett
> and Castillo in the middle infield. And when he's not on the field,
> he'd be a valuable bat off of the bench.
Hillenbrand is a fine hitter but his problem (apart from his mouth) is that
he no longer can effectively play any position except 1B and DH. He ain't
displacing Morneau. Kubel's splits are backwards and he actually has hit
lefties better... go figure.
LeCroy could be had for less money and less given up in trade. If the Twins
are making a move, I vote Matty.
>> Just some thoughts. I don't think he's a great fit for the Twins but
>> might
>> be an ideal rent-a-player if the Twins *really* think they have a chance
>> at
>> making the playoffs.
>
> At 5 games out, playing the way they're playing, I think they HAVE to
> be thinking that.
We're going to know a lot more in about a week. Big series with the Sox and
Tiggers coming up...
brink
Andy - Mpls
I would pass on Hillebrand, he sounds like a head case. Is anyone old
enough to remember Tommy Herr..........before they got him, I think
most would have said, brilliant.
I don't think anyone could have foresaw him being the pure cancer he
was from the moment he got here.
Brian J
I wasn't so upset that the Twins picked up Herr, but to lose Brunansky
in the deal got my undies in a bundle. Then I remember reading the
news story about how Tommy cried on the entire flight to Minneapolis
after the trade. Brother. It never got better. What a nightmare trade
that was. Andy McPhail was a brilliant guy, but everybody screws up
sometime.
Brian Jones
Brian J
I dunno. Maybe, but the whole thing is a little spooky. See:
In addition, it is clear that Hillenbrand doesn't want to be a DH.
>From the article:
<<Hillenbrand has expressed his displeasure with serving as a full-time
DH this season and said that this latest incident only furthered his
desire to join another team -- an option that the Blue Jays now have 10
days to explore>>
So how would the Twins use him? It looks like the only option would be
to replace Punto, and I don't know that that would be worth the $$$.
Brian Jones
powrwrap
FIRED JAY BLAMES MANAGER
TEAM WON'T ELABORATE ON WHAT HAPPENED
Jul. 20, 2006. 09:28 AM
Geoff Baker
Sports Reporter
Guess it's pretty clear now why the Blue Jays were trying to unload
Shea Hillenbrand to the Los Angeles Angels back in May for second
baseman Adam Kennedy.
No, it wasn't part of some convoluted scheme to get compensatory draft
picks at season's end, a hilarious-sounding theory some had floated
that sort of made sense until you started adding two and two together.
Well, the mystery of why the Jays would dump a DH with a .920
on-base-plus-slugging percentage at the time in return for a middle
infielder being squeezed out of Los Angeles and with declining
offensive skills has finally been solved. The answer came via a
telephone call from a clearly annoyed Hillenbrand about an hour after
Wednesday night's game had ended.
By then, debris from the nuclear explosion that erupted between
Hillenbrand and manager John Gibbons in the Toronto clubhouse before
the game was still being scattered all around the Rogers Centre.
Nobody, be they media, players, coaches, management types, or employees
sweeping the stadium floors, was thinking about Toronto's 5-4 loss to
the Texas Rangers.
It was all Hillenbrand all the time.
Hillenbrand had already been on the phone twice earlier, including
calling up in the late innings of the game after being told the Jays
had designated him for assignment. He was obviously upset, sounding
more bewildered than anything else by the rapid-fire fashion in which
his Toronto career disintegrated.
But during the final telephone call from his home well after the game,
his voice was shaky and he was furious. He had just seen news reports
quoting Gibbons and general manager J.P. Ricciardi as saying his
version of what took place did not jive with the team's.
Problem is, team officials didn't want to elaborate on their comments
when pressed.
Sources have said that Hillenbrand and other players had taken turns
attempting to write humorous messages on a clubhouse chalkboard. At one
point, Hillenbrand is said to have written: "This is a sinking ship" on
the board.
Though the messages were being quickly erased by the players after
writing them, somebody apparently got word back to Gibbons about
Hillenbrand's scribbling. After batting practice, the manager entered a
players-only meeting, demanded who had written the message and got in
Hillenbrand's face when he accepted responsibility.
Hillenbrand wouldn't comment on exactly what he had done in the
clubhouse, only to say that it was "minor" and not deserving of that
type of reaction from Gibbons.
During Hillenbrand's previous phone conversations on Wednesday night,
he'd held back on describing exactly what occurred behind the closed
clubhouse doors. But after hearing the team's response, he figured it
was best to get as much information out as possible before opinions
about him started to crystallize.
He told of a relationship with Gibbons that had ended two months
earlier - at exactly the same time all the Hillenbrand-for-Kennedy
rumours first surfaced. The proposed deal came undone when the Angels
balked at paying the more-than $2 million (all figures U.S.) difference
between the higher-paid Hillenbrand and Kennedy.
Once that happened, if what Hillenbrand told me is correct - and he
swears it is - then the Jays were stuck with a player whose manager
had long ago written him off in spirit. In a heated closed-door meeting
between the pair in the manager's Rogers Centre office in late-May,
Hillenbrand said Gibbons told him he was "washing his hands" of him as
a player except for when he penciled him into the lineup.
Hillenbrand added that the manager told him he was a "cancer" in the
clubhouse whose teammates thought of him as a joke. He said he verbally
abused him once again in front of the entire team on Wednesday night in
a pre-game players' meeting, calling him "a cancer" and "a coward" and
challenging him to hit him and start a fight.
"Go and ask the players in the clubhouse if I was a cancer,"
Hillenbrand said on the phone. "See if you can find anyone who can tell
you I was a distraction. Or that I didn't prepare for each and every
game and give all I had to this team for the time I was there.
"The problems that were going on had to do with Gibby," he said of the
manager. "It's a shame because that's such a good team, the guys are
great and I loved being around him.
"It's a shame that every day, they have to suffer through the decisions
that (Gibbons) makes."
Communication between the pair had so deteriorated that Hillenbrand
says he decided not to tell Gibbons he was leaving for Los Angeles to
adopt a baby girl after Friday night's game. Hillenbrand insists that
his agent did call and receive permission from Jays general manager
J.P. Ricciardi to leave the club.
But clearly, something here had to give.
Gibbons didn't want Hillenbrand around. Hillenbrand also hasn't been
happy with being made into a DH one year removed from an all-star
appearance and finishing runner up to Vernon Wells as Toronto's "Player
of the Year" in voting by local baseball writers.
The Jays have been a team on the verge of an inner implosion of sorts
for two weeks ever since Ricciardi questioned the intensity shown by
key players in some games in Kansas City. Jays catcher Gregg Zaun also
came out right after the all-star break and questioned the lack of a
"sense of urgency" shown by the team.
Now, there is manager Gibbons choosing to confront a player and dress
him down in front of the team. Perhaps Gibbons already knew Hillenbrand
was done in Toronto and figured he could go-to-town without fear of
having to work with the hitter later on.
This isn't the same as a newly installed Carlos Tosca laying down the
law on a problematic Raul Mondesi back in 2002 when the latter missed a
team meeting. Gibbons has been the manager for nearly two calendar
years and the Jays spent nearly $30 million more on payroll in the
hopes of contending.
Despite injuries and other performance issues, they had managed to stay
close. But the past two nights, with two blown late leads, they are
coming perilously close to fading from the race before August.
Perhaps Gibbons is trying to re-assert himself on the team in a
difficult week in which some of his bullpen moves have been questioned
and amid rumours on some U.S.-based websites that he'll be fired after
the season. Until now, he has enjoyed the reputation as an easy-going,
players' manager, who has a hard time not getting along with people.
But perception isn't always reality.
Whatever the real story, his job is now very much on the line. If the
Jays collapse in the wake of the Hillenbrand-Gibbons confrontation, it
is very likely they will take their manager down with them.
It's now up to the manager to demonstrate he has control of the team. A
team that has shown, up until now, little to suggest in can pass either
the Boston Red Sox or New York Yankees in the standings.
As for Hillenbrand, he will still earn his $5.8-million salary this
season. He is now sitting in his Toronto-area home, waiting for word on
whether a team will trade for his services. The San Diego Padres and
the Angels are both possible destinations, though his diminished trade
value in wake of Wednesday's events means he might have to wait until
he is released before joining another club.
SILENCE ISN'T ALWAYS GOLDEN: Plenty of questions about what happened on
Wednesday remain unanswered. Hillenbrand doesn't want to spell out
exactly what took place in the clubhouse before batting practice, when
he and some teammates apparently engaged in some "clubhouse humour" the
manager didn't find appropriate.
Hillenbrand insisted the actions he took were "very minor" and "in no
way warranted the type of unprofessional action (Gibbons) took
afterwards."
The Jays are refusing to confirm that any clubhouse incidents took
place. Sources say he and other teammates were writing messages on a
clubhouse chalkboard and Hillenbrand's was insulting to the team and
its prospects this season.
Hillenbrand doesn't mind the team's refusal to engage in a public war
of words. But he takes exception to their contention that his version
of events doesn't match theirs and that they are suggesting he's a
liar. He worries about things "leaking out" to friendlier media types
and that a smear campaign will be waged against him.
"I've had people try to characterize me and stereotype me as a certain
type of individual and they're wrong about that," said Hillenbrand, who
as a Boston player in 2003 used a derogatory word to describe Red Sox
GM Theo Epstein in a semi-serious radio interview and was traded soon
after. "They don't know who I am, but things get said and they stick. I
don't want that happening here. I want to put the facts out and if they
want to challenge me, you can go ask my teammates who is telling the
truth."
Better yet, perhaps the Jays and their management can spare the third
parties and be more forthcoming about exactly what led to this split
with a .300 hitter. So far, by their choice, the tale has been very
one-sided.